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Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3968
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/22/2021 10:33:10 PM
What I’m puzzling about is how to distinguish between an incident, an event and history. Any interested in discussing this?

Yes, the “This Day in History” thread is talking about the 1980(?) victory of the US hockey team over the USSR team. And yes, I’m not a hockey fan. But that isn’t why I raise the issue at this point. Is it possible for a hockey game to be considered historic? Or for any yearly sports event (as an example) to be more than an event hyped far beyond its historical value? Is Tom Brady’s longevity an historic event, or merely an odd factoid about a sport which usually destroys the bodies of its athletes much more quickly than that.

I recognize – let me rephrase this – I believe there are sports events which have some historical significance. Two (related) issues I see as historic might be the introduction of Jackie Robinson to MLB play; another might be recognition of the Negro League as an elite sports league functioning in a legally and culturally bifurcated world.

Moving away from sports, does anybody have thoughts about what makes an incident or event worthy of elevation to historical significance? I can name events, issues and/or occurrences I would label historic events. The Gunpowder Plot comes to mind; the Black death of the mid 14th century is another. Luther’s 95 theses; Galileo’s telescope spring to mind. The assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand and the Munich Putsch fit the criteria.

Seems to me that for an event to be of historical note, it must in some way alter our way of understanding of what might impact our historic interpretation of the world around us.

Anybody want to play around with what I will admit are vague questions about how we define historical meaning.

And just to make sure my attitude is clear! For the most part, ports don’t seem to meet any real requirement as historical events. Hell, even Jesse Owens’ success in 1936 Berlin moved nobody anywhere.

Again, not an attack against those who feel strongly about their sports. I’m concerned with a broader description of meaning of what history is or what makes an event historic.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 802
Joined: 2005
What makes an event historic?
2/23/2021 7:38:07 AM
Hi Brian,

I share your doubt that notable sports events can generally be considered 'historic'.

In my mind, for an event to be of historical note, I would suggest the event would have to decisively conclude a series of events (Battle of Zama, for instance, defeating Hannibal and ending Carthage as a serious threat to Rome) or an event that changed the trodden path that came before (I liked your examples in your post).

Have there been any sports events that truly have changed events elsewhere? The American ice hockey victory was noteworthy, but did it alter anything in the grand scheme of things? I'm not sure it did.

No doubt others may disagree and I'd be keen to hear why!

Cheers,

Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5271
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/23/2021 8:00:43 AM
Actual events are one thing : history another.

The past might well differ from history, in so far as the first is what happened, while the second is what is recorded.

So I would argue that England's World Cup victory over West Germany in 1966 is historic, because it entered national consciousness to a degree that it is enshrined in popular memory of that era.

Likewise, Muhammed Ali's boxing triumph over George Foreman, " The Rumble in the Jungle", in 1974.

Did these events impinge sufficiently on other events to earn the description " historic" ? Yes, I would argue that they did....... to a degree.

They changed perceptions and, I daresay, aspirations.

Regards, Phil



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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Dick Evick
Waco TX USA
Posts: 380
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/23/2021 10:14:13 AM
What I’m puzzling about is how to distinguish between an incident, an event and history. Any interested in discussing this?

In light of our recent winter storm here in Texas I would have to say situations that affect a large part of the population could be considered an historical event. Eight days below freezing here in Central Texas broke all time records.

Dick.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 11980
Joined: 2009
What makes an event historic?
2/23/2021 12:04:44 PM
I am loathe to restrict discussion to historical events that were transformative.

A sporting event like the Olympic hockey championship in 1980 took place at the height of the cold war. Was it significant? I think that given that the game was billed as a head to head match-up of the proponents of democracy against the evil communists of the USSR, then the game was notable. That may be a silly reason to play a game but I do remember the hype surrounding this match.

Falling short of war, the game did cement the belief that the underdog representative of the western democracies could prevail over this enemy.

Margaret MacMillan in her book, "The War that Ended the Peace" noted that in the 15 years before WW1 broke out that there was great concern that the youth of several nations were becoming soft and less inclined to believe that their honour was tied to fighting in wars. She noted that as football became more popular in France, having been adopted from the British, that the French noted that the game of football was one of intelligence and planning and deception and was ideal for promoting the fitness and competitive spirit needed in war.

So sport may be reflective of societal changes and needs. Having said that, this section of MHO studies a chronology of events with posters choosing to comment or not. And so if an event like the Miracle on Ice was a great occasion, or a confirmation that the US culture was on the right track, then it seems to me that there is no harm in noting it.

Brian, is your opposition to noting sporting events based on the section in which it is noted or to the recognition of sporting events in general?

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3968
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/23/2021 8:26:08 PM
Wow! Interesting comments. Might take a while to cover all the issues raised.

George, you ask “Brian, is your opposition to noting sporting events based on the section in which it is noted or to the recognition of sporting events in general?” Fair question: I’m assuming you mean am I arguing about any sporting event being listed on “This Day in History”, rather than whether sports has a place on any forum.

I don’t come across as a sports-minded person, I know. That’s not accurate, because there are sports I enjoy watching, and sporting events I enjoy I delight in following. Baseball is a favourite of mine, from minor leagues to the Majors (I’m a Mariners fan, but with strong ties to the Jays). I never tire of the minutiae of the game, or the constant movement on the field; I never tire of the constant one-on-one with each move. Soccer (football) entrances me, though I can see it so relatively seldom that I consider myself an observer rather than a “fan”. For some years in the 80s-90s my home was a drop-in site for NFL football. I played some rugby; I was active in a squash league.

All I can do is reiterate that they are sports. I think there are sufficient locations on MHO where folks can talk sport, including both the Community Forum and Yoder’s Pub. In fact, I think it’s great that MHOers can explore and celebrate mutual interests beyond military history.

I’m not trying to downplay the Gold Medal game in 1980, any more than I’m trying to forget the 1972 USSR-Canada 7-game series – which I did not watch! I’m just saddened (or maybe bored) that a sports feat is in any way an indicator of historical significance. This is just another indication of making a sport a significant event beyond its reality. If you can show me that the US victory made a difference in the ultimate collapse of the USSR a decade later, I’d be interested. In the mean time, all I see is the Free World politicizing a a single event so fully that it becomes a demonstration of how the West has a better system than the USSR. IMHO, that is a load of crap. When you say, “… if an event like the Miracle on Ice was a great occasion, or a confirmation that the US culture was on the right track, then it seems to me that there is no harm in noting it.” Provide one indication that the 1980 win has anything to do with a “confirmation” of US culture and I might reconsider your argument. But had the US lost to the USSR, would you be arguing that this was a “confirmation” of Soviet culture? That’s what you’re implying, IMHO.

My argument is rather simple. Sports are merely sports. There are very few sports events which have had lasting impact on history, or which have altered history. My concern is that by the implying that sports success reflects cultural richness or political viability or social resect demeans both an entire system.

I sense that, increasingly, sports are used as social drugs. Sorry for the rant.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 11980
Joined: 2009
What makes an event historic?
2/23/2021 8:53:07 PM
Hello Brian,

I did not view the "Miracle on Ice" as an affirmation of culture or of a political system. However, the event was played up as such.

May I ask why sport cannot be viewed as one element of cultural richness in a country? An individual game may indicate very little about a society but perhaps participation and love of sport in general or a specific sport says something about the vitality of a group of people. So we associate rugby with New Zealand or South Africa, hockey with Canada or sumo wrestling with Japan. New Zealand is much more than rugby but surely it is an important part of the image that we have of the place and the self image that New Zealanders have of themselves.

BTW, did you make a conscious effort not to watch the 1972 Summit Series against the Soviets? For non-hockey fans, this was the first time that Canada's pros met the Soviets. It was expected to be a cake walk but it certainly was not and it captivated the nation.

And on the final game of the eight game series with Canada needing a win to take it, the country came to a standstill. Teachers across the country wheeled televisions into classrooms. There were 22 million of us in 1972 and it was estimated that 15 million were watching that final game. It was wonderful theatre.

Brian, this was a cultural event of importance to most of the people of Canada. It was a chance to revel in watching our countrymen play a sport that is loved here. Did it change the world? Perhaps not at that point but I know that you are aware that contact with these strange men from the USSR led to many more contacts in Canada Cup matches. As I recall, that led to other cultural exchanges mostly related to sport. I like to believe that these were positive developments.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3968
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/24/2021 9:33:30 PM
Dick, good to see you checking back in, apparently none the worse for wear. Quote:
In light of our recent winter storm here in Texas I would have to say situations that affect a large part of the population could be considered an historical event.

The fact that your issue is recent, personal and national – and may be of cultural significance as well – makes the call hard. As a storm, it wasn’t that big a deal when you get right down to it. Some snow, some cold, some freezing rain; that’s kinda winter weather for 90% of Canada and maybe 50+% of the US. So while it is obviously way outside the norms for Texas and surrounding affected regions, and may be considered at least a regional historical event, I don’t think it historical in general. To be honest, I would probably rate the current recurring plagues of locusts around the Horn of Africa as more historic: going on longer, affecting more people, causing more human destruction. Unless the locusts and the Texas storm are related.

If – and please, I’m not saying because of – there is any scientific indication that the Texas Deep Freeze or the Horn Locust assault are associated with global climate changes, then the Texas storm may become an historic indicator of climate change. That would raise its status from a regional catastrophe to an historic indicator.

Finally, if – and please, I’m not advocating but only raising this – the issue is one that is ultimately political, then it is a non-starter except as a demonstration of political folly. From my point-of-view, this would turn the Texas storm into a moral issue, where political consistency and intransigency led direectly to at least some of the human lives lost.

With all that said, the problem with looking at the Texas storm is not just that it perhaps too recent to see clearly. It wasn’t a “Texas” storm, after all. It was an arctic outbreak that swept as far south as Texas. The impact wasn’t from the severity of the storm itself, but from the lack of preparation to deal with such a storm. I don’t just mean what I understand to be Texas’s reluctance to pay the fees required to be part of larger, regional power grids. It could include everything from inadequate insulation and construction standards for houses, pipes or mobile homes to insufficient stockpiles and delivery systems. Even if these meet 100-year requirements, they cannot protect Texans if their inadequacy isn’t recognized, owned and corrected.

Dick, 25 years ago, my little corner of the Wet Coast was hit by a blizzard. IICR, I measured 51” of snow over six days beginning Dec 26, 1996, with temperature below freezing. On Vancouver Island, we were isolated from the Mainland for a week. Not even our military had the capability of moving troops and/or equipment to assist us. Roofs were collapsing; ambulance services were immobilized (we relied on volunteers with snow mobiles or skis and sleds to bring aid to the needy); PSAs were covered by a local radio station (for which they received many well-earned awards). Our city had no snow plows because we didn’t normally get snow storms. And when my Victoria hit a spot of nasty weather over the past week (part of the same arctic outflow that hit your Texas), we still had no plows or snow-related emergency services to speak of. I didn’t lose power for more than a few minutes, but (partly for pandemic reasons) I didn’t leave my apartment for five days.

The “Blizzard of ‘96” was an historic weather event in Victoria, but only locally, and will probably remain nothing more than that. IISI, the military and the province haven’t addressed a single issue which caused the crisis 25 years ago. I hope that doesn’t happen to Texas.

One final, brief note. I don’t know whether when moving from incident to event to history we might be able to eliminate natural disasters entirely (and, for Christians, I guess that would have to exclude Noah’s Flood!) Disasters are human issues.

Time to stop yet another rant. Glad to see you back, Dick. Love to continue this discussion with less immediate examples.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3968
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/24/2021 11:48:13 PM
George, this isn’t meant to be a personal issue. Quote:
I did not view the "Miracle on Ice" as an affirmation of culture or of a political system. However, the event was played up as such.

BTW, did you make a conscious effort not to watch the 1972 Summit Series against the Soviets? For non-hockey fans, this was the first time that Canada's pros met the Soviets. It was expected to be a cake walk but it certainly was not and it captivated the nation.

You may not have viewed the “Miracle on Ice” as political, but my point is that 40 years after the event it is being listed as of “historical significance”. Whatever it was, I question it’s “historical significance”. That’s the issue I’m raising. What is of historical significance; what is not.

My choice of whether to watch the 1972 Canada-USSR series isn’t at issue either, IMHO. The Community College I was teaching at at the time shut down all teaching. It created huge viewing areas for student, faculty and support staff in vRIOUS COMMON AREAS. That was probably only for the last game, but I can’t remember; I was teaching in the Soo and one Phil Esposito was on the Canadian roster, so the College may have shut down for more than just the final game. Having the school shut down meant I could use equipment otherwise booked solid (specifically, a sound-proof studio which eliminated the Kincheloe “beep”). “Clean” air time was more significant to me than hockey; I made my choice. It wasn’t a conscious effort not to see the games. It was a choice between things I’d rather do. I chose the studio time. And that too has nothing to do with my question. Quote:
May I ask why sport cannot be viewed as one element of cultural richness in a country? An individual game may indicate very little about a society but perhaps participation and love of sport in general or a specific sport says something about the vitality of a group of people. So we associate rugby with New Zealand or South Africa, hockey with Canada or sumo wrestling with Japan. New Zealand is much more than rugby but surely it is an important part of the image that we have of the place and the self image that New Zealanders have of themselves.

History may generate cultural pride, but cultural pride or affiliation doesn’t necessarily generate events of historical significance. I have no reason do disagree with your cultural notes, or with you linking them to sports. Again, I think you’ve infused culture as a surrogate term for history. E.g., IMHO the “cultural link” folks talk about between Canada and ice hockey are embarrassing. To reduce Canadian culture to Maple syrup and ice hockey is about as demeaning as it gets, though I accept the place they play in defining us.

I didn’t mean this to be a discussion of culture, or of sports as a factor in culture. I simply wanted to talk about whether there was a common understanding of what history is, or what an historical event might be. Write it a different way, are there criteria for determining if an even is historic?

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
kaii
Oslo  
Posts: 2976
Joined: 2010
What makes an event historic?
2/25/2021 8:24:01 AM
Great topic Brian!
I must admit, being quite a sports fan, I am probably inclined to mention a few sports moments as "historic events", but I do get your point that very few sports events could really be considered historic as such.

The one event I can think of that I actually would consider truly historic, for the effect it had on a nation and a continent at the time, was the 1995 South African World Championship win in rugby. I was tremendously lucky to watch that final game live in the stadium in Johannesburg, and it did truly feel like a historic moment when that trophy was lifted.

...but then again, did it actually change anything in the long run. In South Africa and elsewhere. Probably not.

I think perhaps the fact that sports are fairly limited in its coverage and interest, limits the possibility of truly historic moments arising from sports events. The miracle on Ice was huge in the US, not so much elsewhere in the world. Jesse Owens in the 1936 Olympics was important, but in the end it did not really alter anything from a historical perspective.

One thing one should mention, when it comes to the 1980 game, is, of course that the game was not only politicised in the West. The Soviet Union and the eastern bloc all used sports as a way of showing the superiority of their system, and even went as far as having state run doping programs to ensure their athletes would perform well on the world stage. We see the same in Russia today. Sports is clearly not always "just sports".

But historic? Tough call.


(For me, as a sports interested Norwegian, the date June 24th 1998 stands out as one of the most historic dates in history, right up there with our declaration of independence and constitution day.)

Will write more when I have thought a bit more about this topic.

K
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“My dear boy, as long as you don’t invade Afghanistan you’ll be absolutely fine.” - Harold Macmillan to Alec Douglas-Home upon the latter taking over as PM.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 2924
Joined: 2010
What makes an event historic?
2/25/2021 3:16:47 PM
Brian,

This has been one of those interesting posts that has had me thinking. A fascinating question.. ( just like VPs Cost of War). Just haven´t got around to putting my thoughts to paper, ot text.

It´s a pity really. There is an astounding video of Christopher Clark in discussion with the german philosopher Precht to the question "Why study History?". Unfortunately, it´s in german.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 6748
Joined: 2006
What makes an event historic?
2/25/2021 4:10:57 PM
Hi Brian,

I'm to blame for this, aren't I? by sometimes posting significant Sports events in "this day in history!"!?

Sorry, " My bad"!?
D
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 2924
Joined: 2010
What makes an event historic?
2/25/2021 4:37:19 PM
Quote:
Hi Brian,

I'm to blame for this, aren't I? by sometimes posting significant Sports events in "this day in history!"!?

Sorry, " My bad"!?
D


Why Dave ?

One can talk about the history of sport or the history of fashion. This website is concentrated on but not just, "military" history.

All part of the discussion and the question that Brian has asked.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3968
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/25/2021 8:02:52 PM
LOL, Dave! No, there’s nothing to be blamed for.

If there is an issue, I was the guy who posed the question.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G.
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3968
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/26/2021 9:56:39 PM
Kai, thanks. Food for thought.

You got me thinking about Olympics I remember. Sadly, the Munich Olympics (1972) and Atlanta Olympics (1996?) spring to mind, but not for any single sporting event. Black September butchers took gold in 1972; a crazed domestic pipe bomber and domestic terrorist won in 1996. I don’t remember winners in any single event. To me, those two acts of terrorism made the Olympics news.

To be honest, for selfish reasons I’d rather move away from this being an issue of whether sports can have historical significance. I enjoy sports in my own fashion, but I certainly neither look for nor expect to see something worthy of status as “history”.

How about this? On this day (Feb 26), the following get lead status on two different “This Day in History” sites:
• “History” offers: “2012. Florida teen Trayvon Martin is shot and killed”; and
• “Encyclopedia Britannica” offers: “Napoleon's escape from Elba.
Forced to abdicate as French emperor in 1814, Napoleon escaped from exile on the island of Elba this day in 1815”.

Britannica notes the Trayvon Martin killing second in its list for the day; “History” doesn’t mention Napoleon’s escape from Elba at all.

Both events have human, social and cultural significance. I don’t doubt that. But from an historical perspective, I’m not sure they are of equal importance.

I sense my comments will piss some people off. I don’t believe that’s the case.

I’m not down-playing the murder of a black boy by a publicity-seeking gun-lover with fantasies of heroism. Were we to talk about Trayvon’s death, I would include the fact that his death is one of too many black lives taken for no reason in the US. I would probably argue that his death is being lost not because folks no longer care, but because there have been so many black people killed in the past eight years that he has become a less immediate source of rage, losing ground to the dozens of other black deaths that seem to change nothing.

Elba, I get. Napoleon’s escape changed Europe, and led to Waterloo and the final incarceration of “The Little Corporal”. Napoleon’s resurgence changed the world.

I’m thinking with my fingers here. And it must be obvious that I’m simply searching for some views of what constitutes historical events.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3968
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/27/2021 11:17:27 PM
Phil, I like what you’re arguing when you say:Quote:
Actual events are one thing : history another.

The past might well differ from history, in so far as the first is what happened, while the second is what is recorded.

So I would argue that England's World Cup victory over West Germany in 1966 is historic, because it entered national consciousness to a degree that it is enshrined in popular memory of that era.

Likewise, Muhammed Ali's boxing triumph over George Foreman, " The Rumble in the Jungle", in 1974.

Did these events impinge sufficiently on other events to earn the description " historic" ? Yes, I would argue that they did....... to a degree.

They changed perceptions and, I daresay, aspirations.

I know that you were responding to my initial, rather misguided use of sports, so drawing general conclusions might be both counter-productive and unfair. In effect, are you arguing that history is defined by awareness, or am I pushing your argument too hard? Are you suggesting that a slightly modified version of Bishop Berkeley’s Esse est Percipi (“To be is to be perceived” might be a factor? Kind of “It ain’t historical if you don’t recognize it as historical”? I’m not being flippant or insulting when I ask that.

In the US at least, February is officially (I believe) “Black History Month”. I don’t honestly know if other countries (Canada, GB, South Africa or others) have adopted this tribute. But let’s set aside for the moment the complex issues of the black experience in SA under Apartheid, or the differently complex issues of slavery and indenture throughout the Spice Islands.

This year, more than ever before, I have been exposed to writings, articles, events and arguments which have made me more aware than ever before of the scores (maybe hundreds) of challenges blacks have faced in the US since they were first carried to the New World as slaves. I don’t know why, but might suggest any of the following (which could be wrong individually or en masse:
• The apparent resurgence of white nationalism;
• The increased focus on black deaths at the hands of various police forces;
• The change in leadership in Washington DC;
• The increasing intransigence of political parties to address issues which may be considered ancillary to other issues.

What I’ve been left with is a sense of shame for my ignorance, and of blindness for not becoming aware of black issues sooner, despite a life-long support of the civil rights movement. I’ve delighted in Jazz and Blues (Mississippi, Delta and the other traditional blues) all my life, but I’ve suddenly been a window into the culture behind the sound. I’m humbled, and shocked by how easily I’ve been able to miss or undervalue the daunting life of blacks which have created such joy.

If “Esse est Percipi” might be an historical principle, that doesn’t create or define history. But it does suggest (and this seems to be demonstrated by various tribes, nations, cults or ethnic groups) that it creates a framework for perhaps oral tradition, or enrichment, or even expansion of what has been the accepted history to date.

Just thinking off the cuff here. Sorry for the rant.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5271
Joined: 2004
What makes an event historic?
2/28/2021 3:26:39 AM
Brian,

Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom .

That film says it all in respect of the things you’re talking about : at least, that’s my perception.

The movie was released last year, and is being streamed on Netflix .

It’s timing coincides with the BLM events that have so galvanised the world of late.

Have you seen it ?

If you have, then forgive me for banging on about it.

If you haven’t, I hope you watch it because it’s almost tailor made for you, and accords with the interest you display in the posts you make.

I’d love to discuss it with you.

In the meantime, look after yourself and keep us informed about how you’re getting on.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

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