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Message
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/19/2022 11:11:04 AM
Quote:
Quote:


Checking 4-17 in history, how about these events? Not commented on yet??

1492 Columbus will sail the Ocean Blue, for Spain!? Was he good for Native Americans? Comments?

1861 Virginia becomes the 8th state to secede from the Union! What if they hadn't? Would that have stopped the revolt??

1864 USS Grant bans prisoner exchanges! How does this effect the Civil War? Anyone??

1961 the Bay of Pigs invasion why does it fail?? Comments on this fiasco? Anyone??

1970 Apollo 13 Astronauts finally land! How under impossible odds did they make it back safely! Comments??

& checking 4-18 the following occurred!?

1942 Jimmy Doolittle bombs Tokyo & other Japanese Cities! What was it's effect on Japan??

1943 US P38's shoot down Yamamoto after breaking the Japanese code! How did the Allies keep it a secret that they had broken the code??.what effect did shooting Yamamoto down have!??

Comments please,
MD




Checking 4-19 in history here's some history events! Comments??

1775 the American Revolution begins with the battle of Lexington! The beginning of a small group of freedom loving Patriots defeating the most powerful military on Earth! What say you??

1861 Abraham Lincolns orders a blockade of the Confederacy! How effective was it?? Anyone?

1927 Communists & Nationalists fight it out in China! Who will ultimately win??

1938 Gen. Franco, declares victory in the Spanish Civil War! Who did the Nazis support, & why??

Anyone have any other events for 4-19??
Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
4/19/2022 5:08:03 PM
Quote:
1775 the American Revolution begins with the battle of Lexington! The beginning of a small group of freedom loving Patriots defeating the most powerful military on Earth! What say you??


Hi Dave,

Sorry I haven’t replied in a while. I have followed the thread though, many thanks for your continued great work in here.

The British army was effective, but wasn’t the most powerful on earth at that time (or indeed, at any time). IMO, the French army was peerless from the late Middle Ages until 1870/71 when it was surpassed by the Prussian-led German armies.

The Patriots fought and fought well, but outright victory would have been difficult without French aid.

Quote:
1861 Abraham Lincolns orders a blockade of the Confederacy! How effective was it?? Anyone?


Brutally so. The blockade, coupled with South’s mad decision to hoard its cotton, doomed the Confederacy to a slow death if it could not force the Union to give up the fight.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/19/2022 9:05:11 PM
Quote:
1938 Gen. Franco, declares victory in the Spanish Civil War! Who did the Nazis support, & why??

MD, you got me on this one. I can’t find any reference to this, and the accepted dates for the Spanish Civil War are 17 July 1936 – 1 April 1939.

This was a surprisingly ugly civil war. The two sides were the Republicans (which came to power on 13 April 1931 as the Spanish Second Republic) and the Nationalists (a loose coalition of military commanders, Church faithful, various nationalist political parties and monarchists). Confusingly (for some casual readers), the Republicans were socialist, and the Nationalists were conservative.

Almost from the beginning, there were signs of foreign support for both sides. The Republicans had support from the Soviet Union, Mexico and – briefly – France; the Nationalists from Italy, Germany and Portugal. Both had sizeable contingents of foreign people fighting for them and providing medical and advisory services. In other words, supporting nations fitted with the sides expected.

Nazi support was vital to the Nationalist cause, but it should be noted the number of German troops involved in the war ran at about 16,000, while Italian troops numbered 50,000. Both Germany and Italy offered air support; one of the earliest examples of the impact of air power involved the transshipment of Franco’s North African Army. I believe this was largely a German success story, using Ju-52/3s; I believe the Italians were still negotiating a fee to cover their support. That’s not meant as a dig at Italy. Germany was more eager to help because they had weapons and techniques to test and hone; keep “Guernica”, a Basque townsite, in mind.

I believe there is no question but that Hitler’s assistance to Franco came with a quid pro quo. He expected Franco to offer support in return, including destroying the British base at Gibraltar. Franco did neither, though he allowed free rein to German “diplomats” for the duration of the war while claiming a neutrality which was theoretical at best.

Cheers,
Brian G



----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/20/2022 10:05:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


Checking 4-17 in history, how about these events? Not commented on yet??

1492 Columbus will sail the Ocean Blue, for Spain!? Was he good for Native Americans? Comments?

1861 Virginia becomes the 8th state to secede from the Union! What if they hadn't? Would that have stopped the revolt??

1864 USS Grant bans prisoner exchanges! How does this effect the Civil War? Anyone??

1961 the Bay of Pigs invasion why does it fail?? Comments on this fiasco? Anyone??

1970 Apollo 13 Astronauts finally land! How under impossible odds did they make it back safely! Comments??

& checking 4-18 the following occurred!?

1942 Jimmy Doolittle bombs Tokyo & other Japanese Cities! What was it's effect on Japan??

1943 US P38's shoot down Yamamoto after breaking the Japanese code! How did the Allies keep it a secret that they had broken the code??.what effect did shooting Yamamoto down have!??

Comments please,
MD




Checking 4-19 in history here's some history events! Comments??

1775 the American Revolution begins with the battle of Lexington! The beginning of a small group of freedom loving Patriots defeating the most powerful military on Earth! What say you??

1861 Abraham Lincolns orders a blockade of the Confederacy! How effective was it?? Anyone?

1927 Communists & Nationalists fight it out in China! Who will ultimately win??

1938 Gen. Franco, declares victory in the Spanish Civil War! Who did the Nazis support, & why??

Anyone have any other events for 4-19??
Regards,
MD



Hi Colin,

I guess I was including the British Navy in my assessment of British being so powerful Military wise! You often wonder if the RN had ever chose th break Lincolns blockade, what the results would have been?? Nice to see you contribute again!

And Brian,

Of course your right the Nazis supported Franco! Remember Hemingway's Novel, For whom the bell tolls!? 1938 on that day wasn't necessarily a specific event, it was just when Franco declared victory!?

Thanks guys!
MD

I'm heading to New England for a couple weeks starting Thursday, so if any or all MHO'ers could help with the thread it would be great!? It's tougher for me to go through Ontario, extra paper documentation so we'll be traveling south of Lake Erie!??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/20/2022 2:08:17 PM
Quote:
I'm heading to New England for a couple weeks starting Thursday, so if any or all MHO'ers could help with the thread it would be great!? It's tougher for me to go through Ontario, extra paper documentation so we'll be traveling south of Lake Erie!??


Other than the passport, I think that you need the proof of vaccination (must be fully vaxxed), and you have to upload it on the ArriveCan app or bring the paper with you. What other paperwork is required MD?

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/20/2022 5:02:27 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I'm heading to New England for a couple weeks starting Thursday, so if any or all MHO'ers could help with the thread it would be great!? It's tougher for me to go through Ontario, extra paper documentation so we'll be traveling south of Lake Erie!??


Other than the passport, I think that you need the proof of vaccination (must be fully vaxxed), and you have to upload it on the ArriveCan app or bring the paper with you. What other paperwork is required MD?

Cheers,

George



Hi George,

It's a combination of iffy documentations, 1st off my enhanced drivers license expired a week ago, I did go & take an eye test plus some others, & passed, when you get a new license they clip the corners of the old one, put some punch holes in it & staple some papers to it, it really looks suspicious?! I'm supposed to get my new one in the mail, but not in time, leaving tomorrow morning!? Plus I'm not Super technical, looked at the instructions from Arrive Can & was left wanting? Michigan only gave me a small cardboard card saying I've had my booster Covid shot, not as detailed as the AC site wanted. Rather than go up to the Sarnia crossing, & being turned back, My wife, & I decided this time we would just go around Lake Erie, even though it is @ 2 hours longer! BTW Michigan Residents driving across, don't need a passport only an enhanced drivers license!

So there you have it, we will return to Canada sooner, than later, when from our side crossing looks like a sure thing!

Take care!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/20/2022 8:07:01 PM
Bring out the birthday candles and count out 133 of them. It’s Hitler’s birthday. He was born in Braunau, Austria on this date in 1889. He died 30 April 1945 by his own hand, aged 56.

Though some may doubt it, he was not reborn on 7 Oct 1952.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/20/2022 9:27:01 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm heading to New England for a couple weeks starting Thursday, so if any or all MHO'ers could help with the thread it would be great!? It's tougher for me to go through Ontario, extra paper documentation so we'll be traveling south of Lake Erie!??


Other than the passport, I think that you need the proof of vaccination (must be fully vaxxed), and you have to upload it on the ArriveCan app or bring the paper with you. What other paperwork is required MD?

Cheers,

George



Hi George,

It's a combination of iffy documentations, 1st off my enhanced drivers license expired a week ago, I did go & take an eye test plus some others, & passed, when you get a new license they clip the corners of the old one, put some punch holes in it & staple some papers to it, it really looks suspicious?! I'm supposed to get my new one in the mail, but not in time, leaving tomorrow morning!? Plus I'm not Super technical, looked at the instructions from Arrive Can & was left wanting? Michigan only gave me a small cardboard card saying I've had my booster Covid shot, not as detailed as the AC site wanted. Rather than go up to the Sarnia crossing, & being turned back, My wife, & I decided this time we would just go around Lake Erie, even though it is @ 2 hours longer! BTW Michigan Residents driving across, don't need a passport only an enhanced drivers license!

So there you have it, we will return to Canada sooner, than later, when from our side crossing looks like a sure thing!

Take care!
MD



Hi Dave. The US and Canada have a deal that only asks for proper ID to allow entry. For many that is the enhanced driver's licence. I said passport because most Canadians who travel carry a passport. I understand that many US citizens are less likely to have a passport. About 67% of Canadians have passports while apparently only 40% of Americans do. Don't know why that is.

I guess that's why I suggested that you only need a passport. I was assuming everyone carried one.

Have a good trip. Hope the weather takes a nice turn for you.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/21/2022 9:34:55 PM
Not trying to act as locum for MD. Just some things worth noting ( perhaps not) on this day:

1926: HM Queen Elizabeth was born in London. Oddly, though her official birthday is celebrated to some extent, her actual birthday is a low-key event (for a queen!).

1941: Greece, after 3 weeks’ war with Germany, submitted to armistice terms dictated by Germany

1942 I quote Robert Goralski,, World War II Almanac, 1931-1945, p. 214: ‘Spain pledged a million men if necessary to help defeat the Soviet Union. Spanish Foreign Minister Rámon Serrano Sùner said Madrid hoped the Axis powers would win the war because “a victory for the Allies would be tantamount to a victory for Bolshevism.”’ As far as I know, such numbers were never close to being reached, but the pledge suggests Falangist Spain’s detestation of socialism. I met a member of the Blue Division (which fought with the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front) when I was in Spain in 1960. It was 15 years after the end of the war, but Franco was still very much in power.

1945: The Russian Eighth Guards Army attacked the suburbs of Berlin. German forces counter-attacked but could not stop Soviet encirclement. Hitler had one week to live.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/23/2022 9:22:17 AM
Well guys,

Made it safely to New England, looking out at a harbor on Cape Cod, sipping coffee, on a nice sunny morning!

Today 4-23 in history shows these events!

1348 the 1st English order of Knighthood is founded!? Just what does it take to be Knighted?? Anyone?

1500 explorer Cabral claims Brazil for Portugal! What did the Pope have to say about this?? Comments anyone?

1661 Charles II is Crowned King, returning the Monarchy to Britain with reduced powers!? What's that all.about??

1865 Union Cavalry continue mop up exercises in Alabama & N. Carolina! Is the CW really over?? What say you? Perhaps Bri., can elaborate it's significance!??

1945 as Bri. said Soviets fight their way into Berlin! What say you about what happened to Hitler??

1969 Sirhan Sirhan, is sentenced to death for assassination of Robert Kennedy! 1968 was a bad year for good leaders, sad losses!? Comments??

Again stop worrying, I made it ok! ☺
Any new topics??
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/23/2022 9:16:48 PM
Quote:
1661 Charles II is Crowned King, returning the Monarchy to Britain with reduced powers!? What's that all about?

Not exactly sure what you are asking here. His coronation did take place on 23 April 1961, but he was proclaimed King on 29 May 1660, returning from exile, first in France and then in Holland on 25 May 1660. He was invited to return to England on 8 May 1660 by the Convention Parliament (after critical military backing was assured by – I believe – General Monke). He had been in exile just under nine full years and was 29 at the time, and would turn 30 on 29 May 1660. One assumes he saw his proclamation as king to be a birthday present to himself.

Are you wondering about more than his return? Is the idea of negotiation between a potential monarch and his potential nation foreign to you, given your means of choosing party leaders and Presidents? The 17th century is among the more complicated in English history. Amongst the largest changes was the power of monarchy itself. Elizabeth I, the Virgin Queen and last of the Tudors was on the throne in 1600; in 1700, William of Orange (a Dutch principality) was on the English throne, husband of Mary (who died of smallpox 28 Dec 1694), fifth of the Stuarts to hold the throne. Add to that one or two civil wars, a regicide, a nine-year interregnum, an abandonment of the throne by James II, a series of plots to kill Charles II and James II (then Duke of York) and some pretty fanciful arguments about smuggled newborns, together with death-bed religious conversions, and we’re not dealing with 100 years of calm.

When you ask, “What’s that all about?” all those things are what the Restoration of Charles II is about.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2022 2:19:15 AM
You give an excellent rendition there, Brian.

The `British people - and here I allude to the English more particularly - tend to underrate the turmoil of that century, almost as if they’re sanitising it. The Cavaliers and the Roundheads fought each other , a silly and arrogant king got his comeuppance , the people continued their progress towards democratic government and the result was a nation blessed with a unique tradition of parliamentary primacy over the tyrannical impulse.

Contrast this with the contemporaneous continental horrors of the Thirty Years War, and it’s all too easy to believe that God is an Englishman !

More civilised, more sedate and most definitely more stable.

Time to think again.

Regards, Phil


----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 813
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2022 5:44:45 AM
Commonwealth and French Forces are this night preparing to land at Gallipoli.

ANZAC Day tomorrow for us here in Oz and Kiwi land.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2022 7:29:10 PM
Wazza, does one wish another person a Happy Anzac Day? Dunno …

Whether or not, it is a day for Oz and NZ to celebrate their coming of age as nations within the Commonwealth, and for the rest of us to join you in remembering your sacrifice. I’ve played Eric Bogle’s “The Band Played Waltzing Matilda” today.

I note too that in NZ (and maybe in Oz as well) the Ukrainian flag was given equal status during at least some ceremonies.

Thanks to you all for your sacrifice.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2022 9:59:09 PM
Phil, I note in particular your description of my comments as a “rendition” of 17th-century England.

What strikes me, to be honest, is that our US friends seem to have no abiding sense of the impact of English/British 17th century history on both their settlements, the creation of their colonies, and even their long-held connections between church and state.

I certainly understand that the English Civil War was less destructive than the Thirty Years’ War, and that the religious aspects of the two battles were not that similar. But even in England there was a ferocity inherent in the religious side of the Civil War. I’m not just thinking about the witch-hunts, but about the smashing of statues of the Christ and the destruction stained glass window or anything which reeked of “idolatry”.

I spent at least a brief time studying the Cambridge Platonists. It seems to me that Benjamin Whichcote’s “the spirit of man is the Candle of the Lord” provided an alternative to strict Puritan creed throughout the Interregnum, and that Ralph Cudworth, through his tedious True Intellectual System of the Universe, kept alive at least some semblance of the scientific spirit during the dark religious period of the Commonwealth. Perhaps the relative brevity of the civil war, combined with a continuing value structure under those such as the Cambridge Platonists, provided one means of moving into the increasingly libertine society of Charles II, combined with the surprisingly liberal religious values of Latitudinarianism that was in vogue within a short time after Charles II took the throne.

Gonna stop now. Interesting topic.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 813
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2022 11:30:56 PM
Quote:
Wazza, does one wish another person a Happy Anzac Day? Dunno …

Whether or not, it is a day for Oz and NZ to celebrate their coming of age as nations within the Commonwealth, and for the rest of us to join you in remembering your sacrifice. I’ve played Eric Bogle’s “The Band Played Waltzing Matilda” today.

I note too that in NZ (and maybe in Oz as well) the Ukrainian flag was given equal status during at least some ceremonies.

Thanks to you all for your sacrifice.

Cheers
Brian G


Not sure on your first bit Brian. Maybe have a good commemoration?
Yes its a very evocative song isn't it. It did get played on the radio this morning.
The dawn service I went to was not to bad. The breakfast with other veterans of many eras was the icing on the cake so to speak,
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2022 9:23:08 AM
Hi Wazza,

Yes we recognize all the sacrifices that the ANZAC troops made, not just in WWI but WWII & other times you have been such good Allies! Have a good Commemoration, & I'll dance with Matilda anytime!! Of course this recognizes this day in 1915's invasion of Gallipoli! Any other MHO'ers feel free to comment!??

Also on this date, 4-25, note the following, & please comment!? Anyone??

1599 Oliver Cromwell is birthday Just what did he mean to England?? As Brian said us State spiders don't know much about British history???

1792 the guillotine is 1st used! Any volunteer s to see how it works? Hey no reason to lose your head over it!??
Comments on it's use by so called civilized men!??

1859 the Suez Canal is started! How did the British gain control of it for so long?? Anyone?

1865 Union Admiral David Farragut, takes New Orleans! How did this hurt the Confederates!? Comments anyone??

1938 A Seeing Eye Dog is used for the 1st time! One of hundreds of things Man's best friend does for us!? Ya gotta love dogs!? Comments??

Cheers, & please post!?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2022 12:52:26 PM
MD,

Wasn’t it 1862 when New Orleans fell to the yankees ?

Wazza,

ANZAC still has tremendous resonance throughout the Commonwealth, doesn’t it ? I have been so shocked to read that the New Zealand death rate at Gallipoli was almost one third of the entire contingent : 2,750 dead from 8,550 who served there. Add on the 4,750 wounded, and consider those who were afflicted by illness , and all of them must have been damaged ! Apparently, a large portion of the Kiwis were wounded, and then recovered, and were sent back to the Peninsula, where they were wounded again, or killed. I really feel that this story merits investigation, because I’m loathe to believe it ( by which I refer to the proportion, not the absolute number , which is undoubtedly correct : surely that loss was born by a higher number than 8,550 ).

I think that about one in six of all the Australians who served in the campaign were killed, and that more than twice as many were wounded, meaning that more than half of them bled or died in that dreadful place...... and then there were the sick, too. What a bloody nightmare !

Just to make the cup run over, at about the same time, the Ottomans unleashed their atrocious onslaught on the Armenians , killing hundreds of thousands, or maybe even a couple of million of them.

Brian,

Your allusions to the cultural and religious aspects of the English Civil War era put me to shame. I really know so little about this compared with you. There is a school of thought among current historians that revises the narrative, emphasising how bitter and destructive the Civil War was. There is a statistical claim being bandied about that , in proportion to population, more Englishmen were killed in their civil war than were to perish in the warfare of 1914-18. I don’t buy it. Marston Moor was a bloodbath, and there were one or two other big battles, and a host of sieges and local engagements that took their deadly toll. A bit of a stretch to argue that per capita loss was higher than 1914-18, unless we allow for the toll of diseases, which tended to kill many people in those days all the time, peace or war.

For the Irish, of course, that conflict did assume all the horrific attributes we associate with the Thirty Years War, and, to a lesser degree , the same could be said for the Scottish. Interesting to speculate as to the whys and wherefores of this,

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2022 6:20:22 PM
On this day in 1933, Hermann Goering established the Geheime Staatspolizei (better known as the Gestapo). a secret police organization which became feared thoughout German-held territory.

Personally, I find it unsurprising that such an organization should be formed at about this time. Only 34 days earlier (22 March 1933) the first of the recognized KZ – Dachau – had been established 15 km west of Munich. Hitler himself had only been in power since 30 January 1933, and his party had a lot of scores to settle with political enemies.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2022 6:26:48 PM
I guess Hitler wanted to put the heavyweights on the snooping work.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2022 7:35:02 PM
“I guess Hitler wanted to put the heavyweights on the snooping work.” – OP

I accept that the Gestapo became heavyweight rather rapidly, but at the beginning I wonder if it was just filling a need?

Very early in their time in power, the Nazi party was exploring a number of social experiments. Some were to various extents accepted by German civilians; among these were labour camps, re-education camps and KZs. Among those rejected were programs based on eugenics and “blood cleansing”. The issue for Nazis – I assume – was to both regulate and make efficient those programs which were accepted. Prior to Dachau, smaller ad-hoc camps for political and cultural enemies existed, but not a sense of regulations determining the terms of incarceration. I guess the Gestapo and it’s clandestine nature was seen as a way of collecting and codifying crimes against the state.

Its also interesting that while the Gestapo collected data leading to arrest, it was the SS who administered the KZ from mid-1934. This gets complex, because Gestapo also fed their collected data to the German courts, IIUC, where some form of legal format continued to exist. One could become an inmate of a KZ without trial and outside the law; one might be seen to violate some regulation. That could be enough to send you to a KZ. IIRC, it was only with the “Nacht und Nebel” Hitler directive of 7 Nov 1941 that the Gestapo became a vehicle of domestic terror.

Sorry, I’m swinging this away from Gestapo and towards KZs.

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/26/2022 1:49:22 PM
Brian,

Connecting your post with my last one, let me cite Hitler’s ( supposed ) comment on 22 August 1939 :

After all, who now remembers the annihilation of the Armenians ?

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2022 8:54:40 AM
Today 4-27 in history, the following events happened! Comments on any of them??

1296, Edward I, defeats the Scots at the battle of Dunbar! Can anyone enlighten us on why the Scots lost??

1773 the British Parliament Passes the Tea Act! A party will insue, boy back then they really liked their tea?? Anyone on its significance??

1813 Americans capture the old city of York! (Toronto), the capital city of Ontario! Why couldn't they follow up this big victory!?? Anyone?

1861 Abraham Lincoln suspends the Writ of Genesis Corpus! Can he do this? & why?? Anyone??

1865 the Sultana explodes & sinks, over 1,200 Union soldiers, x POWs, die!? Where & how did this occur!? Comments??

1975 Saigon is surrounded by N. Vietnamese troops! Anyone have a website on the last US military to leave??

1978 the Afghanistan Revolution begins! Is it still going on today? Also the Afghan s were able to defeat the Russians! Perhaps this gives hope for Ukraine!? What say you??

1989 protesting students take over Tianenan Square! Remember the picture of the unarmed student in front of tanks!? Could anyone post it??

Any new topics, or posts on these items??
Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2022 2:51:15 PM
Quote:
1813 Americans capture the old city of York! (Toronto), the capital city of Ontario! Why couldn't they follow up this big victory!?? Anyone?


Strategically, this battle wasn't that important. It did give a big lift to the spirits of the Americans. The real target should have been the naval base at Kingston, Upper Canada. A victory there would have opened the route east to Montréal and then Québec City. Kingston was actually the initial objective but the British twigged to the plan and moved hundreds of troops from New Brunswick in the dead of winter on a march to Kingston. The American army based at Sacket's Harbor still outmanned the garrison at Kingston but Sec. of War Armstrong decided to take little York instead. The Americans were convinced that they were now outmanned.

York was a capital and there were warships being built there. One sailed away before the Americans got there but the other, HMS Isaac Brock was still being built.

It was also a costly battle for them. The US forces had landed at Humber River bay, close to York and with 1700 men, they greatly outnumbered the small British garrison. Until near the end of the war, the British were always under manned. That is why they fought a defensive war until later in 1814.

The British commander, Roger Shaeffe, who had been the man who had saved Upper Canada at the Battle of Queenston Heights in 1812 only had 300 hundred troops at his disposal at York. In fact, despite being the capital of UC, there were only a few hundred inhabitants of the town and they were surrounded by dense bush.

So Shaeffe decided that it was better to retreat and did so. He and his men headed east to Kingston. This angered the citizens who felt that they had been abandoned. But Shaeffe also blew up the block house full of ammunition. This was a massive explosion that was heard on the US side of Lake Ontario. The explosion killed and injured about 200 Americans and one of the dead was their commander, Gen. Zebulon Pike.

The Americans burned and pillaged the town and stole books from the library. They stayed for four days and then departed. The British warship, the Brock, had been set afire by Shaeffe and so they didn't acquire that naval asset.

One unexpected success for the US was that they captured arms and cannon destined for the British Lake Erie fleet and this left the commander on Lake Erie, Captain Barclay with poorly equipped ships to fight the important Battle of Lake Erie in September of 1813. This battle at Put-in-Bay forced the British to abandon SW Upper Canada to the Americans after the Battle of Moraviantown.

So the question was why didn't the Americans exploit the victory? Unlike the situation on Lake Erie or on Lake Champlain, the balance of naval power on Lake Ontario was constantly shifting.

Both naval commanders, Admiral Chauncey for the US and James Yeo for the British were loathe to engage one another unless they had an advantage in ships and weapons. And so the naval war on Lake Ontario was spent with the two fleets playing cat and mouse. There were attacks on towns and defensive positions on the lake but there was never a pitched battle between the two fleets.

The two fleets were engaged in a ship building war. I have read that the naval war on Lake Ontario was derisively described as the, "Battle of the Carpenters".

James Yeo did attempt to bait Chauncey into coming out of Sacket's Harbor to settle things but he never did. Chauncey was a proud man and he often argued with the US army commanders. When the Americans decided to leave Fort George on the Niagara Peninsula in 1813, it was partly because they could not be reinforced on Lake Ontario as Chauncey would not take the chance if Yeo appeared to be stronger. But he was also adamant that his fighting fleet would not be a transport and supply squadron for the US army.

Chauncey was also of the opinion that Yeo did not wish to fight him.

However, it was the British who launched the largest warship to sail the Great Lakes during this war. That was in Sept. of 1814. HMS St. Lawrence was larger than Nelson's flagship, HMS Victory. Chauncey arrived off KIngston and he wanted Yeo to come out and fight but Yeo declined to take the bait. In October, the St. Lawrence put to sea and sailed about Lake Ontario unmolested.

St. Lawrence was a first rate ship of the line and not one of the small schooners that were so prominent on the Great Lakes. And with that, Commodore Chauncey took his fleet back to Sacket's Harbor, NY and that gave the British control of Lake Ontario for the last few months of the war.

That dominance also aided the British and Canadian militia and First Nations warriors in the bloody battles on the Niagara peninsula in 1814 resulting in the US army leaving Upper Canada for the last time. The USN was not available to resupply the US forces in occupation of Fort George and Fort Niagara.

EDIT: Chauncey did try to support the army when Fort George was seized but that left Sacket's Harbor open to attack by Yeo and Prevost. The attack failed but Chauncey returned with his fleet and vowed to stay until new ships were built. That allowed Yeo to head to Burlington Bay to support British forces on the Niagara peninsula.

A short article from the Legion magazine about Commodore Chauncey and Commodore Yeo

[Read More]

Cheers,

George




Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2022 8:03:54 AM
Quote:
Today 4-27 in history, the following events happened! Comments on any of them??

1296, Edward I, defeats the Scots at the battle of Dunbar! Can anyone enlighten us on why the Scots lost??

1773 the British Parliament Passes the Tea Act! A party will insue, boy back then they really liked their tea?? Anyone on its significance??

1813 Americans capture the old city of York! (Toronto), the capital city of Ontario! Why couldn't they follow up this big victory!?? Anyone?

THANKS GEORGE, For the detailed history of the American attack on York, sounds like the Americans picked the wrong target in attacking Toronto!?? BTW how did Toronto change its name from York to Toronto???

1861 Abraham Lincoln suspends the Writ of Genesis Corpus! Can he do this? & why?? Anyone??

1865 the Sultana explodes & sinks, over 1,200 Union soldiers, x POWs, die!? Where & how did this occur!? Comments??

1975 Saigon is surrounded by N. Vietnamese troops! Anyone have a website on the last US military to leave??

1978 the Afghanistan Revolution begins! Is it still going on today? Also the Afghan s were able to defeat the Russians! Perhaps this gives hope for Ukraine!? What say you??

1989 protesting students take over Tianenan Square! Remember the picture of the unarmed student in front of tanks!? Could anyone post it??

Any new topics for 4-28, in history, or posts on these items,
above still yet to be commented on??
Regards,
MD


4-28 in history,

1758 James Monroe, who was responsible later for the Monroe Doctrine! Was this good for all North American Countries? What say you???

1789 Capt William Bligh set adrift by mutineers!.who was to blame for the Bounty Mutiny??

1945 Benito Mussolini executed! How could he fall so far from grace with the Italian people!?? Anyone??

1969 Charles de Gaulle resigns his presidency! Did he ever have an effect on Canada??

Comments, anyone??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2022 11:20:39 AM
Quote:
THANKS GEORGE, For the detailed history of the American attack on York, sounds like the Americans picked the wrong target in attacking Toronto!?? BTW how did Toronto change its name from York to Toronto???


MD the variations on the name Toronto have roots in indigenous culture and in the French culture. But the name Toronto was more of a regional reference. The Wendat (Hurons) people had a similar word for the area. But the Wendat were destroyed culturally by the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) and there is a Iroquoian name for a strait located between Lake Simcoe and Lake Couchiching about one hour north of present day Toronto. That Mohawk word was "tkaronto" and it means "the place where trees are in the water".

Champlain actually used the word tkaranto in his reports as early as 1615.

The Wendat word for "meeting place" is "Toronton" but it could refer to any place that people meet.

17th century European maps used variations in spelling of the Mohawk word like Tarento, Tarontha, Taronto, Toranto, Torento, and Toronton.

When the French moved into this territory they referred to a large lake just north of Lake Ontario as "Lac de Taranto". That lake is now called Lake Simcoe and being only one hour outside of Toronto, it is very popular cottage country.

The Humber River feeds into Lake Ontario. It is on the west side of Toronto but the French used it as a canoe route that they called, "passage de Taranto". A French fort to the east of that river was called Fort Toronto.

Anyway, you get the idea. The name was used extensively in this area long before the British got here.
And when they did, they tended to rename everything using place names from the old country. Governor Simcoe decided, in 1793, to name the small settlement on the shore of Lake Ontario, York, after the Duke of York.

People referred to it as "Little York" to differentiate it from the big city in the US called New York. It was also called, "Muddy York" because the dirt streets were often seas of mud after a rainfall.

York was growing as the colonial capital and by the 1830's the municipal politicians determined to incorporate the city and in doing so they felt that a name change was appropriate and so in 1834, York was renamed Toronto. Some of the arguments made were that the name was more lyrical and reflective of the history of the area. As well, it has been suggested that the English city of York had fallen on hard times and city politicians felt that that reflected badly on Little York in Upper Canada.

So Toronto it is but there are still many uses and variations on the name York. Yorkville is a section of Toronto. Historical Fort York still sits on the shores of Lake Ontario (well a bit removed from the shore because of land filling in the lake). The county to the north of Toronto is York County. A former borough of Toronto is called York. Another former borough is called North York.

So there you have it. And yeah I had to look some of this up. Good thing. I thought that Toronto meant, "meeting place" but the indigenous people assure us that the name is more Iroquioian than Wendat.

Cheers,

George







Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2022 5:28:32 PM
Comments, anyone ?

Well, Dave, if anyone were to comment, none could make a bigger statement than Benito Mussolini, who, hanging as a bloating corpse from a post outside a petrol station in Milan, sent a message to Adolph Hitler in Berlin. That’s the comment that persuaded the fuehrer to take his own life a couple of days later.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2022 8:35:41 PM
Quote:
1758 James Monroe, who was responsible later for the Monroe Doctrine! Was this good for all North American Countries? What say you?

MD, good topic. Good question. I know little enough about the Monroe Doctrine not to attempt to discuss the details, or to attempt to assess its value over a span of many decades. I don’t even know when Monroe’s comments when addressing Congress gained any teeth and actually became a doctrine. I must add that I don’t see the original comments as anything more than an arrogant early US foreign policy statement which could not be (or at least wasn’t) enforced.

Why do you single out “North American countries” when considering whether the Monroe Doctrine was “good”? It covered all the Americas, including the Caribbean and the various Central American nations. If it were truly to be a doctrine to protect all that space, should the question of how good it was for “North American countries” even be raised?

At least one site I have visited suggests that the Monroe Doctrine only gained teeth under Teddy Roosevelt’s “big stick” policies. If that’s the case, it can be argued that the Monroe Doctrine was an aggressive concept attempting to place the New World under the control of US policies and – to a certain extent – US values. In effect, it was used through much of the 20th century to force alignment between smaller nations and Us interests (as opposed to values, which it seems to me is an on-going US problem). Without going back as far as 1909 and the “banana wars”, e.g., I still have my lapel pin reading “NICARAGUAL is SPANISH for VIETNAM”. What was argued to be a “proxy” issue was rather plainly an effort to protect US investments and companies’ interests.

Was the impact of the Monroe Doctrine different in WW2? During the Cuban Missile Crisis, did it provide a safe haven for all “New World” nations? Personally, I think the Monroe Doctrine was used rather cynically during WW2; FDR was pushing boundaries to implement it, and his pushing worked. The CMC brought humanity perhaps the closest to nuclear exchange we’ve ever been. JFK, IIRC, invoked the Monroe Doctrine. But I think it was Russian realism wrt supply chains and the like that caused the issue to defuse.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2022 9:06:29 PM
Quote:
1758 James Monroe, who was responsible later for the Monroe Doctrine! Was this good for all North American Countries? What say you???


I suspect that the Monroe Doctrine is perceived quite differently by many of the other nations of the western hemisphere than it is by the US. The US may view itself as the protector of all countries in the hemisphere while those countries may view the US as a bully.

Monroe gave a speech to Congress in 1823 and buried in it was a foreign policy initiative that would not be called the Monroe Doctrine for nearly thirty years. The US had great concern that European powers would try to re-establish themselves in the western hemisphere or try to acquire new colonies. Spain was of special concern as it was thought that the Spain intended to re-acquire countries that had recently become independent of Spain.

As well the new foreign policy decision would hopefully ensure that the US had regulatory control over the economy of the region. The US had a desire to trade freely with Cuba as an example and the doctrine would have the effect to minimize or eliminate new European competition. Years later, the doctrine would allow the US to put all other nations on notice that it would not tolerate competition in North America for its expansionist goals.

Monroe laid out the four main points associated with this foreign policy:

1. The US would not interfere in European politics and would not participate in European wars.
2. The US would respect the rights of control over colonies that already existed in the western hemisphere.
3. The US insisted that there would be no further colonization in the hemisphere.
4. If any European power engaged in oppressive activity against nations in the western hemisphere, the US would consider those activities to be hostile actions.

What is ironic is that the US was not strong enough in 1823 to enforce this foreign policy. It could not hope to defeat the French navy or the Royal Navy. So it is fortunate then that Britain actually favoured this policy initiative because it had the effect to protect British possessions from European rivals thus protecting British trade and trade routes.

Britain actually offered to issue a joint statement to outline the main points of this foreign policy but the US chose not to do so. I suspect that the US did not wish to appear as a dependent of Great Britain and so acted unilaterally.

Of note, the US never protested when Britain continued to take action in South America or to take control of the Falkland Islands from Argentina. Britain was a necessary ally in the enforcement of the Monroe Doctrine.

The Monroe Doctrine evolved or rather was altered however when it came time to accelerate to expand US territory in North America. Around 1845, President James Polk used the doctrine to establish that the US would not tolerate any attempts to seize the western lands that the US coveted. Russia had indicated that it felt that it owned the Pacific coastline from Alaska to Oregon.

Britain was very active in the Oregon Territory and that region was essentially governed by the Hudson Bay Company.

France had fought a war with Mexico and wanted to set up a puppet regime there that was supportive of France.

The US told France to leave and they did. Polk announced that the US should own coastline on the Pacific right up to 54'40 latitude. Polk fought an election using the slogan, "54'40 or fight". Polk was also a strident proponent of "manifest destiny" which was an opinion or philosophy presented by a newspaper editor that said that the US was destined to own and control all of North America.

Quote:
he United States had the God-given right and duty to occupy the land stretching to the Pacific Ocean
source: John L. O'Sullivan, 1840's.

Polk used phrases like "reoccupy" in reference to territories to which he felt the US was destined to control. He also used the phrase, "re-annex" in reference to Mexican territory. And he was a proponent of the war with Mexico in 1846 and sent US troops to the Texas territory. When the Mexican army fired on those troops that were regarded as invaders, the US went to war.

So the Monroe Doctrine had evolved from one that hoped to keep Europeans out of the western hemisphere to one in which the US felt that it could and would regard any attempts to stop its expansionist goals or to compete for territory as hostile acts.

The US was much stronger militarily by the mid 19th century and so Britain and the US negotiated a settlement. The Oregon Treaty of 1846 established the international border between the US and BNA from the mountains to the Pacific.

A second alteration to the Monroe Doctrine occurred with the rise of Teddy Roosevelt to the presidency. Roosevelt interpreted the Monroe Doctrine to include the right of the US to intervene in the internal affairs of any Latin country that was behaving incorrectly. He reserved the right to send troops to these foreign countries. This policy of 1904 became known as the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine.

Roosevelt was never above threatening hostile action if his objectives were not met. During the Alaska Boundary dispute of 1903, Roosevelt said that if the tribunal that was to determine the Alaska-Canada border did not find in favour of the US that he was prepared to send in the marines. The US had already started to build on the Alaskan Panhandle even before the settlement. Roosevelt had denied certain rights to Canadian miners working in Alaska. US shipping companies slowed the shipments of Canadian goods in favour of American clients. The Roosevelt application of the Monroe Doctrine also included his policy of "talk softly and carry a big stick".

Since the Roosevelt era, the US has assumed the role of hemispheric cop and the list of incursions into Latin America is lengthy.

If not a citizen of the US, it is difficult not to see this doctrine as little more than a bully boy political tactic.

I will add that FDR came to Kingston, Ontario in 1938 and gave a speech in which he assured the Canadians that the US would not sit idly by if a foreign power engaged in hostile action on Canadian territory. This was August of 1938 and Canada would shortly be at war in 1939. For the Canada of that period, there was comfort in knowing that it could mobilize for war in Europe and not have to worry about an invasion, as unlikely as that was anyway on home soil.

And yet, the US also intervened whenever it felt that the Monroe Doctrine was being challenged in the early years of the war. The invasion of Iceland by Britain and Canada and the proposed invasion of the French islands of St. Pierre et Miquelon (just off NFLD) by Canada were questioned by the US. Canada intended to seize the French islands because Vichy spies may have been sending messages to u-boats from St. Pierre and the island was in communication with Vichy France. The US opposed this invasion and Canada called it off.

For me the unholy trinity of the Monroe Doctrine, Manifest Destiny and American Exceptionalism are causes for concern and worry. They appear to give rise to hubris and arrogance and unfortunately at times, military attacks on independent countries.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2022 9:24:21 PM
On the gripping hand the US supported the Open Door Policy that was uniqueish in that we, and the other signatories of the Nine Power Treaty, agreed to not exclude the other countries from China.

Of course Japan needed resources and didn't live up to their pledge. When they took over an area in China they required non-Chinese companies to place a Japanese on the board of directors, one with broad veto powers.

I'm impressed by the tenacity of the Chinese in resisting the highly touted Imperial Japanese Army, an organization with a self-image that was exaggerated beyond realist expectations.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2022 10:43:47 PM
OP, don’t quite know how this issue arose. Can you elucidate just a bit?

I had thought the US Open Door policy (a late 19th century US commitment) was a sneaky way for the US to attempt to break the dominance of Britain in relationships between China and the outside world (predominantly the great European and Western powers). I’d even thought this was part of the US takeover of the Philippines, or the slightly earlier demands of Commodore Perry that Japan open its nation to trade.

Have I got this wrong all these years, or are we just using different words to describe the same thing?

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/30/2022 11:52:43 PM
On this day in 1945, Adolf Hitler, Germany’s Führer of Germany during the 12 year run of the Third Reich, took his own life, reportedly by cyanide and gunshot. Hitler’s new bride and long-time mistress, Eva Braun, joined him in death. This marked the effective end of Nazi power in Germany.

This left Josef Goebbels as chancellor of Germany. He held power for a very short time. Within 24 hours of Hitler’s suicide, Goebbels and his wife Magda poisoned both themselves and six of their children. Himmler would kill himself on 23 May 1945, after being captured by the British. Göring would kill himself on 15 October 1946, after losing his case in front of the War Crimes Tribunal. I believe there is still some question about how he was able to obtain the cyanide which killed him.

Lots of thoughts and opinions are possible concerning this particular mode of dying. It certainly played a role in Nazi culture; the image of a Nazi officer, left alone in a room with his pistol to “do the honourable thing”, is a strong if repulsive icon of “decent” behaviour during the Reich. But there are also some who feel poison was an iconic death for those who poisoned a long-standing European cultural heritage.

Thoughts, anyone?

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2022 9:01:12 AM
Hi Brian,

You bring up the noble way for a German officer to take his own life with A pistol shot! Just curious Hitler killed almost 90 of his leading officers. How did say, Rommel, & others, reach their fate??

Anyone?
Regards,
MD

BTW any new history topics for May 1st?? Anyone??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2022 10:30:21 AM
Well it is May Day today or on the first Monday after May 1 and a celebration of the labouring class in many countries. It is also called International Workers' Day.

Some countries like Canada and the US honour the workers in Labour Day in September.

I suppose that May Day is less important in North America and other western countries because it is often associated with Marxists, Communists and Socialists who selected May Day as a good time to fight for workers' rights in the late 1800's.

And so in many countries we saw general strikes as workers felt that they too should expect to live much better than they were.

There was a general strike in Chicago on May 1 in 1889. The workers were seeking an eight hour day. In the same year, in Paris, a conference was held to unite the workers of the world. The conference was sponsored by the Marxist International Socialist Conference. Were the two events related? The Marxists were calling for workers to strike all over the world.

In Winnipeg, Canada there was a general strike in 1919 in May but not on May 1. 30,000 workers left their jobs. Many had recently been soldiers fighting for freedom or King and Country, only to return home to find that it was the "same old, same old" that saw them scrabbling for pennies while others got rich. There was opposition and when the fighting broke out on the streets, some of the opposition were also veterans who opposed this sort of civil disobedience. The general strike was violently suppressed by the Mounties and by a "special force" of club carrying men who were hired to replace police officers who had also gone on strike.

And what were they looking for in Winnipeg, thirty years after the Chicago strike? They wanted better wages, better working conditions and the right to collective bargaining.

Some of these people had listened to the Communist Party and some had joined the party. But most were just people seeking to improve their lives, something that the communists had been telling them was possible if the capitalist economy could be eliminated.

Those in charge of the country lived in fear of the rise of the Bolsheviks and had little concern for the plight of the worker. EDIT: There were politicians who championed the workers and would create labour parties to represent them.

Even today we note that the general public takes a dim view of those who withdraw services and go on strike especially if they are in public service. After all these years do some still view the labouring class to be associated with communists who have no right to complain about the system of government or the associated economy?

Why is May Day still so popular in many parts of the world but not here in North America?

How much do modern workers who have greater rights and benefits than in the past, owe their gains to the international socialist movement even if they would never support a communist party or a social democratic party?

Cheers,

George

EDIT: If May Day is celebrated in your country, please weigh in to explain whether or why it is an important event in the calendar?






Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2022 5:09:59 PM
When I was a lad, my municipality (West Vancouver) held an annual May Day. It was, in fact, the largest celebration of the year. In 1948 (I was 6 years old, and in Grade 1) I was chosen as one of two Chancellors to the Court of the Queen of the May (who was usually a young teenage girl, literally just ripening into womanhood). Everything – the raised dais on which the court presided, the cars and floats in the parade, the gowns, and food and entertainment was embellished with flowers. Only the two chancellors broke that pattern. We wore white wigs and black robes.

The celebration involved the entire town; IIRC even the shops closed for the Saturday half-day. The members of May Court – there may have been up to 20 in all – presided over a parade route some 13 blocks long, ending at a huge sports park where traditional events (footraces; sackraces and the like) took place. Typically, the games were competitions between elementary schools. One of the highlights was the Maypole dancing.

In the evening, there was a May Day Ball which IIRC was a family affair, with tables, family seating and a dance floor. It was, in short, a massive celebration of the rite of Spring. I believe it continued to be an annual event into the early 1980s, though probably with different emphases.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2022 8:46:44 PM
That's interesting Brian. I am seven years younger than you are and as you may know, I was born and raised in Ontario. And unless my memory is faulty, I can never recall any celebration of May Day at school or anywhere else for that matter.

So your description of a May Day fete is a revelation to me. While not a statutory holiday anywhere in Canada, a little research reveals that some provinces do acknowledge the day as your province did.

By the beginning of the 20th century apparently their were protests in Canada over any reference to or celebration of May Day. According to the Canadian Encyclopaedia, this is because Canadians of British origin felt that this was a day when subversive elements of European origin would engage in violence.

The first May Day in Canada was in 1906 in Montréal. About 1000 workers, mostly European immigrants walked the streets and then retired to a room to talk. They had gathered under a big red flag adorned with the slogan, "“Travailleurs du monde, unissons-nous" which means, "Workers of the World, Unite". The day had been organized by unions and a socialist workers' party.

And horrors, speeches were made in English, Russian and Italian and French. The next year there were confrontations between police and the May Day celebrants.

May Day expanded across the country but by 1931, the Canadian Communist Party had been declared illegal and so each year the RCMP and local police forces would clash with the May Day participants and in many places across the country.

During the Cold War, May Day celebrations declined as we were in conflict with the Soviets and many Canadians feared workers who may have been affiliated with the CPC.

Brian, it seems that I have lead a sheltered life as May Day activities still take place across the country and even in Ontario.


Calgary 2007



Toronto 2009




Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2022 10:51:53 PM
George, I participated in those rites, unaware of the ritual meaning. WTH, I was six and like any six-year-old delighted to be chosen for anything. The celebration was, I assume, a pagan rite incorporated into the Christian calendar and given energy by serfs and peons who celebrated rebirth long before there were months but long after the concept of seasons was linked to the cycle of life.

I do support to some extent the concept of a day recognizing labour/Labour, and sense that the geopolitical, socialist focus is more directly valid than whatever values drove the creation of the first Monday in September, which Canada recognizes as Labour Day.

For the moment, I simply enjoy the various implications of each of the days for their implied values. Is that a wimp-out?

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2022 8:35:47 PM
Today May 2, in history!

2014 (1-24) Pete Seegar the great folk singer passed away at 94! Would anyone want to say a few words on Pete?? Post a song or Two??

1979 Margaret Thatcher becomes the 1st women's leader in Europe, & the longest term for a British Prime minister?! What say you about the Ironlady?? Remember her place in the Falklands War!?? But yet other areas of the British Isles didn't like her? Why? Anyone??

2016 huge fire in Fort MacMurry Alberta 80K were evacuated! Anyone on this dangerous blaze!?? How could it happen, how did they put it out?? What say you?

1970 actually 5-4, 4 students killed by National Guard fire in Kent State Ohio! How could this possibly happen? Anyone?? What of Neil Younger song, " Ohio", as in 4 dead in Ohio! Could someone post it??

1942 the US Fleet turns back the IJN fleet in the Coral Sea how did this help. Australia?? Who won this Naval Battle??

1863 the Battle of Chancillorsville happens how did Stonewall Jackson do?? Was the Union lead at this time by bad officers? Anyone?

Any other events?
Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2022 11:27:34 PM
MD, couple of typos in your list.

Pete Seeger did die at 94, but he died on 27 Jan 2014. He was born on 3 May 1919. I respect Pete a great deal. He was a traditionalist in many ways, but a pioneer in others. He was, IIRC, always true to his values, and they were based on the roots of the best of American values. His years with the Weavers, cut short by HUAC, reflected his first major period of success, but not his last. His support of American folk music (in the true sense, in that he wrote songs about Canadian, Central American, Mexican, Cuban and US history, as well as singing songs drawn from them) lasted through his own lean broadcasting years; he supported the young writers and performers of the late 1950s-early 1960s, including Bob Dylan and Janis Ian. And when he was allowed to perform again, his pure tenor and distinctive banjo was richer than ever. I believe it was then he began to be called “The Pied Piper of Song”. I think he might be amongst the very few public performers who was truly cherished by his audience.

The Kent State killings happened in 1970, but on 4 May. IMHO, that event marked a turning point in US civil discourse. Yes, even more than the violence surrounding the 1968 Democratic Convention and the subsequent trials. After Kent, the protests became larger, the anti-war movement became much broader. More than that, the student movement became more aggressive, and the music of young people became darker and somewhat more aggressive. At least some of that is sensed in Neil Young’s “Ohio”, as you can hear if the following link works.
This day in World History! Continued
5/3/2022 12:16:02 PM
Sorry Brian, thanks for catching my typos!

My bad,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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