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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/27/2023 6:45:27 PM
Quote:
I have a few thousand pages of original documents archived at [Read More] it was my primary site until I joined Patrick Clancey at Hyperwar. Free to all, as is Hyperwar.




Thanks OP

Converted your site into an easy "read more", so all mho has easy access to it! ☺

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/27/2023 6:52:43 PM
Moved all late November events to new page for easy views, & comments!?? Thanks to those who already posted replies on some of these!?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Note, possible topics not yet discussed, A last shot at them, anyone??

1815 the Quadruple Alliance is formed did it stop Napoleon?? How?

1820 the US whaling ship Essex, sinks?? So was Moby Dick, Melville's novel based on facts?? Anyone??

1992 huge fire in Windsor Castle destroys 115+ rooms! How did this happen? & How was it restored? Anyone with a good website on it??

1998 American Tobacco companies are to pay out over 200 billion dollars!? Was this just??

1806 Napoleon tries to blockade Great Britain! The Continental System!? Say what?? How effective could this possibly be?? Anyone??

2002 NATO expands with 7 more x Soviet countries! Why didn't Ukraine join? Are they members now?? Will they survive Russian invasion? What say you??

1990 Margaret Thatcher resigns after her popularity diminished! She was the leader during the victorious Falklands War, so how did this happen? Anyone??

The state of South Carolina lead by John Calhoun, adapts a policy of Nullification! The came close to succeeding from the Union even back then!? Why was it that South Carolina couldn't get out of the Union fast enouph!?? What say you??

1859 Charles Darwin published the origin of the species! Why do many people still today don't believe it?? Anyone?

2001 the Country of Turkey finally grant married women equality in a marriage! Why do Muslims keep women down!?? Comments?

1863, Grant's forces win the battle of Missionary Ridge, the Rebs had the high ground yet they lost! How did they manage that?? Anyone??

1942 the US is already working on the Atomic bomb, why did it take so long to develop?? Comments anyone?

1894 Czar Nicholas marries Alexandria, the last royalty of Russia! What happened to them? Anyone??

In 1941 the US Secretary of State Cordell Hull, tells Japan to vacate China, & Korea! Did this action lead to Pearl Harbor? Explain??

1981 Actress Natalie Wood drowns off Catalina Island, California! At 1st it was ruled an accidential death, but after 2 investigations later now its ruled a suspicious death! & maybe her husband actor Robert Wagner was responsible? What say you? Any detectives out there? BTW I have been to that island, its really cool!

Lots to discuss here!?
Regards,
MD


New historical events for comments?

11-27,

1895, the Nobel Prizes for peace, literature, & most recognized categories are established! Is this a fair judgement, or a popularity contest?? Anyone?

1942 the French Navy scuttled 73 ships at Toulon so that the Nazis don't get them!? How did Hitler react to this?? What say you??

1942 Jimi Hendrix is born! Was he the best Rock guitarists of all time?? Comments?

1943 Gerald Ford becomes the Vice President of the United States, this fair & decent man, later becomes President! What say you about the x center of the U of M football team!? anyone? M go Blue!!

11-28 in history,

1720 female pirates Mary Read & Anne Bonny are captured but allowed to live because they were pregnant!? What say you about female pirates?? & did your country have pirates??

1757 William Blake English man of Arts was born! What legacy did he leave us with? Anyone?

1960 Mauritania declares independence! They have a star, & Crescent moon on their flag! What does that represent? What other countries have this?? What say you??

11-29's events,

1947 Palestine is partitioned! Why did this occur?? Comments?

1850 Prussia, & Austria sign a agreement! Why are these 2 countries always connected??

1929 Richard Byrd flies over the South Pole, did others fly or land near the poles??

11-30

1718 the King of Sweden killed near Oslo Norway, How, & why did this happen? & It's effects??

1782 The US, & GB sign part of the Treaty of Paris, why was GB so ok with giving in? Anyone?

1874 WSC is born in Oxford! Was he GB's greatest statesman, & leader?? What say you??

1908 the US, & Japan reach an agreement to avoid war even back then! What was it about??

1939 the Russo-Finland War begins, how were the Fins able to hold off big Russia! Anyone??

2018 President George Bush passes away! Anyone have the story of his WWII heroics??

Lots to discuss,
MD


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/27/2023 8:27:46 PM
Quote:
1782 The US, & GB sign part of the Treaty of Paris, why was GB so ok with giving in? Anyone?


I think that 1782 was the year that the terms of the treaty had been generally accepted. They were called the Preliminary Articles of Peace.

Why did they agree? They had been defeated at Yorktown in 1781 and there had been criticism of the war in Parliament. As well, some Britons felt that the cause of the rebels was just.

Practically, Britain would have had to have spent a lot of money to raise a larger army to continue the fight. They had already been compelled to hire German mercenaries to continue the fight. And many men were unwilling to join the army for meagre pay and a hard life.

Some British officers were opposed to a fight in which they were making war against British subjects, as unruly as they were.

As well, Britain's enemies, France and Spain decided to join in the conflict seeking an opportunity to either obtain British territory or to seek retribution for losses incurred during the Seven Years War. Britain wasn't only forced to fight the rebels but their benefactors who supplied them with money and arms and then troops.
Both France and Spain attempted to dislodge Britain from Gibraltar during the American Revolution so GB was fighting on several fronts.

And finally, Britain had need of troops in more places than just its 13 colonies. In fact, in 1778 just as France joined the party, Britain was compelled to withdraw troops from the colonies to protect other British territory in the Caribbean. Financially those sugar islands were considered more valuable than the 13 colonies. I note that with the defeat at Yorktown at the hands of the French navy, that navy set sail for the Caribbean seeking to seize British colonies there. It was the mighty RN that saved those colonies by defeating the French navy that had defeated them at Yorktown (Battle of the Chesapeake) at the naval battle of the Saintes in 1782. Note that this took place as Britain and the rebel 13 colonies negotiated the Preliminary Articles of Peace.

EDIT: Let me check that timeline. The Articles of Peace were signed on Nov. 30, 1782. The RN had defeated the French navy at the Battle of the Saintes on April 12, 1782. This effectively knocked the French out of the fight, something that was of great concern to Washington. And so negotiations for the Preliminary Articles of Peace began about two months before the signing. Both sides were eager to get the deal done though I do wonder whether the British had the capability to continue the war if they had elected to do so.

Britain maintained garrisons all over the world to protect the Empire. Britain had 30 colonies in 1776, not just 13.

So with a major defeat at Yorktown, incredible financial pressures compounded by this war and dating back to expensive operations in the Seven Years War (including French and Indian Wars) and with waning support at home, the British sought terms.

As well, the Tory government in Britain that had fought this war was ousted in a vote of non-confidence in Parliament, after the defeat at Yorktown. The new government led by the Whigs was anxious to seek peace and it was they they pushed for a settlement.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/28/2023 10:58:52 AM
Hi George,

The German Mercenaries were the Hessians & they seemed to be involved in several losses! An example the Battle of Trenton! Because they were paid they didn't have the motivation?

What say you??

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/28/2023 1:36:59 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

The German Mercenaries were the Hessians & they seemed to be involved in several losses! An example the Battle of Trenton! Because they were paid they didn't have the motivation?

What say you??

MD


The data I have suggests that 30,000 German troops fought with the British. Hessians comprised about 18,000 of that number. The rest came from five other German states so we should probably not be calling them all Hessians.

That is a sizeable number and so it is likely that they would have been involved in major battles.

They weren't really mercenaries in the true sense of the word. They didn't apply for work in the British army. They were part of the army of the Prince of their state and, for a lot of money, he rented out this army. The men didn't have much say in that. They received pretty good pay from their states but did not receive bonuses from the British.

Most of the articles that I have read indicate that the Germanic troops were feared fighters and very well trained. They should not be defined by the loss at Trenton because they also were instrumental in defeats of the Continental Army at battles like the Battle of White Plains. The German troops penetrated Washington's lines and forced him to retreat from New York in 1776.

They did the same at Fort Washington in 1776.

When the British were defending Gibraltar from the France/Spain alliance, Germanic troops were there as well.

So I cannot comment on the motivation of Hessian and other Germanic troops in the Revolutionary War. It does seen that they were feared as a rather brutal lot. That and the fact that they engaged in plunder after a battle made them particularly despised.

Some excerpts from a book called, "German Soldiers in the American Revolutionary War", by Friederike Baer. Published on the Museum of the American Revolution website

[Read More]

Some interesting insight into these Germanic soldiers who fought in the rebellion. Of note they could see the wealth of the people in North America and could not understand why the people would be angry at the KIng who ruled while this prosperity was established.

Cheers,

George





Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2023 7:50:39 AM
Quote:


The data I have suggests that 30,000 German troops fought with the British. Hessians comprised about 18,000 of that number. The rest came from five other German states so we should probably not be calling them all Hessians.

That is a sizeable number and so it is likely that they would have been involved in major battles!

When the British were defending Gibraltar from the France/Spain alliance, Germanic troops were there as well.

So I cannot comment on the motivation of Hessian and other Germanic troops in the Revolutionary War. It does seen that they were feared as a rather brutal lot. That and the fact that they engaged in plunder after a battle made them particularly despised.

Some excerpts from a book called, "German Soldiers in the American Revolutionary War", by Friederike Baer. Published on the Museum of the American Revolution website

[Read More]

Some interesting insight into these Germanic soldiers who fought in the rebellion. Of note they could see the wealth of the people in North America and could not understand why the people would be angry at the KIng who ruled while this prosperity was established.

Cheers,

George





Nice article, It kind of cleared up my understanding of the Hessians, &, these Germans, paid to fight in the Colonies for the British, they had a rather niave German view of the Revolutionary War, even colonists with German backgrounds couldn't understand their motives!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2023 8:01:18 AM
Listed below are events, not yet discussed, any new posts, on them?? Or history not yet posted for these dates? Surely we forgot some important history? What say you??
Quote:


11-28 yesterday, in history,

1720 female pirates Mary Read & Anne Bonny are captured but allowed to live because they were pregnant!? What say you about female pirates?? & did your country have pirates??

1757 William Blake English man of Arts was born! What legacy did he leave us with? Anyone?

11-29's events, today in world history!

1947 Palestine is partitioned! Why did this occur?? Comments?

1850 Prussia, & Austria sign a agreement! Why are these 2 countries always connected??

1929 Richard Byrd flies over the South Pole, did others fly or land near the poles??

11-30 Tomorrow in this day in history!?

1718 the King of Sweden killed near Oslo Norway, How, & why did this happen? & It's effects??

1874 WSC is born in Oxford! Was he GB's greatest statesman, & leader?? What say you??

1908 the US, & Japan reach an agreement to avoid war even back then! What was it about??

1939 the Russo-Finland War begins, how were the Fins able to hold off big Russia! Anyone??

2018 President George Bush passes away! Anyone have the story of his WWII heroics??

Regards,
MD


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2023 8:20:38 AM
Quote:
Quote:


The data I have suggests that 30,000 German troops fought with the British. Hessians comprised about 18,000 of that number. The rest came from five other German states so we should probably not be calling them all Hessians.

That is a sizeable number and so it is likely that they would have been involved in major battles!

When the British were defending Gibraltar from the France/Spain alliance, Germanic troops were there as well.

So I cannot comment on the motivation of Hessian and other Germanic troops in the Revolutionary War. It does seen that they were feared as a rather brutal lot. That and the fact that they engaged in plunder after a battle made them particularly despised.

Some excerpts from a book called, "German Soldiers in the American Revolutionary War", by Friederike Baer. Published on the Museum of the American Revolution website

[Read More]

Some interesting insight into these Germanic soldiers who fought in the rebellion. Of note they could see the wealth of the people in North America and could not understand why the people would be angry at the KIng who ruled while this prosperity was established.

Cheers,

George





Nice article, It kind of cleared up my understanding of the Hessians, &, these Germans, paid to fight in the Colonies for the British, they had a rather niave German view of the Revolutionary War, even colonists with German backgrounds couldn't understand their motives!?

Regards,
MD


But not paid by the British directly. They received a soldiers pay from their German state government and were sent by their government to fight. Apparently the government of Hesse received sufficient funds from the British to cover 13 years of domestic taxes.

[Read More]

So they were just soldiers being sent to fight somewhere in the world by their government or rather their Prince in the case of Hesse. Do we see a parallel when our troops are sent to foreign lands to fight for another government? Vietnam? Korea?

Interestingly, a good number of the German soldiers just stayed when the war ended. Some settled in the US. Others came to Canada. They were offered land in Canada by the British.

[Read More]

I don't know how they were received by the people of the US. I have seen figures that 6,000 of the 30,000 Germans who fought in the revolution did not go home.

Cheers,

George

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2023 9:07:09 AM
George,

Those German soldiers who fought with the British won imperishable fame in the Napoleonic wars, especially at the Battle of Waterloo, where the King’s German Legion fought one of the fiercest actions imaginable defending the vital farmhouse of La Haye Sainte.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2023 10:09:38 AM
Quote:
George,

Those German soldiers who fought with the British won imperishable fame in the Napoleonic wars, especially at the Battle of Waterloo, where the King’s German Legion fought one of the fiercest actions imaginable defending the vital farmhouse of La Haye Sainte.

Regards, Phil


Thanks Phil. They seem to have an admirable record. How important were the Germans to the defence of Gibraltar during the siege taking place while the American Revolution was ongoing?

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2023 10:45:16 AM
Quote:
Quote:
George,

Those German soldiers who fought with the British won imperishable fame in the Napoleonic wars, especially at the Battle of Waterloo, where the King’s German Legion fought one of the fiercest actions imaginable defending the vital farmhouse of La Haye Sainte.

Regards, Phil


Thanks Phil. They seem to have an admirable record. How important were the Germans to the defence of Gibraltar during the siege taking place while the American Revolution was ongoing?

Cheers,

George


George,

There is an anecdote that comes to mind from the reminiscences of a British soldier who served in the trenches in Flanders in the 1914-18 war. Whether it was the Christmas truce of 1914, or in some later encounter, I cannot remember. But the Tommy in question was intrigued by the fact that the German he met had the name “ Gibraltar “ emblazoned on his uniform cuffs . This,I suspect, is attributable to the presence of Hanoverian or Hessian soldiers defending The Rock from the Spanish at the time you allude to.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2023 11:54:01 AM
Quote:
George,

Those German soldiers who fought with the British won imperishable fame in the Napoleonic wars, especially at the Battle of Waterloo, where the King’s German Legion fought one of the fiercest actions imaginable defending the vital farmhouse of La Haye Sainte.

Regards, Phil


And it was German Nassauers who fought off Durette´s Division at Pappelotte Farm and also provided a battalion to defend Hougemont.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2023 9:14:37 PM
Trevor,

It is said that Hougemont was to Waterloo, what Little Round Top was to Gettysburg!? Great results by the German Nassauers at Waterloo, just ask Napoleon!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
11/30/2023 6:00:45 AM
Unfortunately for the Nassauers at Pappelotte Farm, the arriving Prussians mistook them for French troops and many died from friendly fire.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/30/2023 8:07:57 AM
Hi guys,

11-30 Today, in this day in history!? Last day of November!!

1718 the King of Sweden killed near Oslo Norway, How, & why did this happen? & It seems to be a mystery if he was killed fighting the Norwegians or accidentally by his own men? Comments anyone?

1874 WSC is born in Oxford! Was he GB's greatest statesman, & leader?? What say you??

1908 the US, & Japan reach an agreement to avoid war even back then! What was it about??

1939 the Russo-Finland War begins, how were the Fins able to hold off big Russia! Why did giant Russia have trouble with Finland in warfare? Anyone??

2018 President George Bush passes away! Anyone have the story of his WWII heroics in the Pacific? How close did he come to being killed by the Japanese?? Anyone?

Regards,
MD

BTW thanks Trevor for the insight on the Nassauers being killed by friendly fire, didn't know that!?

As far as WSC being Great Britains greatest Prime Minister, some list David Lloyd George, or Clement AttLee, as better residents of 10 Downing Street!? & what of the "Iron Lady" Margaret Thatcher, winner of the Falklands!?

What say you??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/30/2023 8:25:54 AM
Quote:
Quote:


11-30 Today, in this day in history!?

1718 the King of Sweden killed near Oslo Norway, How, & why did this happen? & It's effects??

1874 WSC is born in Oxford! Was he GB's greatest statesman, & leader?? What say you??

1908 the US, & Japan reach an agreement to avoid war even back then! What was it about??

1939 the Russo-Finland War begins, how were the Fins able to hold off big Russia! Anyone??

2018 President George Bush passes away! Anyone have the story of his WWII heroics??

Regards,
MD


As far as WSC being Great Britains greatest Prime Minister, some list David Lloyd George, or Clement AttLee, as better residents of 10 Downing Street!?

What say you??



There have been a lot of British Prime Ministers. Many were in power when significant events or legislation was passed. For example, Earl Grey was instrumental in promoting anti-slavery legislation.
Benjamin Disraeli was in power during a great expansion era of the Empire. He believed in a class structure but also felt that the upper class had a responsibility to support the lower classes.

They all had their flaws as well. Hard to pick a "best". Most of these sites that rate PM's seen to concentrate only on the 20th century and beyond. Britain's list of PM's goes back to the early 1700's with Sir Robert Walpole, sometimes recognized as the first true Prime Minister. Parliament had other leaders before that too who were not officially PM's. Hopefully our British friends will weigh in with a comment because they have far greater knowledge of this subject matter than I certainly.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/30/2023 9:32:23 AM
Dave,

You first mentioned WSC as being Britain’s “ greatest statesman and leader “. Then you referred to him as being the nation’s greatest Prime Minister. I would endorse the former, rather than the latter. There’s a big difference, I feel , between political skill and statesmanship: indeed, I reckon that the one can be a hindrance to the other.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/1/2023 7:28:02 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


11-30 Today, in this day in history!?

1718 the King of Sweden killed near Oslo Norway, How, & why did this happen? & It's effects??

1874 WSC is born in Oxford! Was he GB's greatest statesman, & leader?? What say you??

1908 the US, & Japan reach an agreement to avoid war even back then! What was it about??

1939 the Russo-Finland War begins, how were the Fins able to hold off big Russia! Anyone??

2018 President George Bush passes away! Anyone have the story of his WWII heroics??

Regards,
MD


As far as WSC being Great Britains greatest Prime Minister, some list David Lloyd George, or Clement AttLee, as better residents of 10 Downing Street!?

What say you??



There have been a lot of British Prime Ministers. Many were in power when significant events or legislation was passed. For example, Earl Grey was instrumental in promoting anti-slavery legislation.
Benjamin Disraeli was in power during a great expansion era of the Empire. He believed in a class structure but also felt that the upper class had a responsibility to support the lower classes.

They all had their flaws as well. Hard to pick a "best". Most of these sites that rate PM's seen to concentrate only on the 20th century and beyond. Britain's list of PM's goes back to the early 1700's with Sir Robert Walpole, sometimes recognized as the first true Prime Minister. Parliament had other leaders before that too who were not officially PM's. Hopefully our British friends will weigh in with a comment because they have far greater knowledge of this subject matter than I certainly.

Cheers,

George



George,

I have to go along with Earl Grey, who else has a tea, & A relatives connection to the CFL,'s Grey Cup!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/1/2023 7:33:43 AM
Welcome to December's history! 12-1,

1814 General Andrew Jackson arrives in New Orleans & prepares as it turns out to rout the British! Why would the battle be so one sided!? Anyone??

1913 Henry Ford comes up with the 1st Assembly line, in Detroit for Ford Motor Co., making Cars affordable!? any websites or comments?? What cars are made in your country? Anyone??

1925 European powers sign a treaty guaranteeing peace in Europe! Yeah sure!? What say you?? Why couldn't this work, at this time? Anyone??

1959 12 countries sign the Antarctic Treaty, making it a non military, scientific only continent! Does your country have a base there?? Any one have a map of all the bases of Antarctica, Comments, & websites welcome??

Regards,
MD

Also on this day, is the Rosa Parks, back of the bus episode, what say you about that??

BTW good point Phil, A big difference between, statesman, leader, & PM!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/1/2023 8:38:40 PM
D
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 9:18:28 AM
Hey guys, here are some 12-2, events in world history, comments, anyone??

1804 Napoleon takes the Crown from the Pope, Luis II, & crowns himself emporer of France! How would you interpret this??

1823 the Monroe Doctrine goes into effect, basically saying you better not mess with the Western Hemisphere or you'll face the wrath of the US! At least they didn't threaten the #2 power in N. America, Canada, only as a protector! Look out!? Comments??

1859 John Brown is hanged for taking Harper's Ferry to start a slave uprising!? Would you say he was a criminal or a hero? How does history remember him?? Anyone?

1854 the Senate votes to censor JP McCarthy for his Red Scare tactics! What do you think of him, & his fear mongering??

1993 Pablo Escobar killed in shoot out! Hat say you about this drug trafficer!? Why was he so powerful, & above the law? Comments?

2014 Canadian Ice hockey star John Beliveau dies, where does he rate as a NHL player? To me he in away reminds me of Gordy Howe, in that he was a big guy, who was tough, & skilled, A fixture with the great Montreal teams of the original 6!? What say you??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 10:04:18 AM
Quote:
2014 Canadian Ice hockey star John Beliveau dies, where does he rate as a NHL player? To me he in away reminds me of Gordy Howe, in that he was a big guy, who was tough, & skilled, A fixture with the great Montreal teams of the original 6!? What say you??


Béliveau ranks as one of the top ten players of all time. He and Howe entered the Hall of Fame in 1972, at the same time. They were competitors but also good friends.

But Béliveau was a centre and a brilliant play maker who could also score. He was big. His nickname was "Le Gros Bill" because he resembled an actor in some movie. Howe was also a big man but he was a right winger, not a centre.

But he wasn't a rough and tumble type like Howe. I would describe his play as more elegant than brutish. The man won 10 Stanley Cups as a player and another 7 as a member of Montréal's management team. His country named him as a Companion of the Order of Canada and his province of Québec named him to the Ordre Nationale du Québec.

Montréal badgered him when he was a star in the Québec Senior Amateur League. He didn't want to play pro initially. Montréal wanted his name on the NHL "C" form which would have bound him to Montréal for life. That's what it was like in the old days. He said no but did sign a "B" form which would give Montréal first dibs should he turn pro. Still he refused so Montréal bought the whole Québec amateur league and turned it pro. Then they called up Béliveau in 1953 and he never looked back.

His record stands for itself. A true gentleman and a brilliant hockey player.

Cheers,

George


Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 10:11:34 AM
Quote:


1823 the Monroe Doctrine goes into effect, basically saying you better not mess with the Western Hemisphere or you'll face the wrath of the US! At least they didn't threaten the #2 power in N. America, Canada, only as a protector! Look out!? Comments??



Hi Dave,

The Monroe Doctrine was essentially a bluff until the US got hold of a blue water navy. There was nothing initially that the US could do to stop the European powers from launching expeditions to conquer or reconquer territories in the Americas. What was key was that Great Britain agreed and supported the Doctrine, essentially to keep other European powers from threatening British hegemony of international trade. Little wonder then that US and British diplomats worked hard to settle disputes over Oregon (at the expense of Canada) and then again during the Trent Affair; US and British interests increasingly converged as the veterans of the Revolution and War of 1812 died. US protection of the Americas limited French and Spanish influence, thus preserving overseas markets for British goods and money. British overt protection of trade routes kept the US economy, particularly its wheat and cotton (until 1860, anyway) exports, growing.

That said, the Doctrine possibly prevented serious Spanish efforts to reconquer their colonies at a time when Spain still had the clout to at least consider such expeditions. The US-Mexican war showed US martial spirit was a growing force to be reckoned with, even if the US regular army was tiny. The US could rely upon a limitless supply of immigrants to boost its economy and add to its agricultural boom. I suspect that, even then, the Europeans recognised that one day the US would be force to be considered as it matched and surpassed European power and influence. By 1898, the US Navy was a formidable force, eclipsed only by the Royal Navy, and it destroyed Spain's ageing overseas naval resources. US industrial output matched and then exceeded Britain's by the turn of the century. By 1914, US money and soft power (sometimes stiffended by the US Marines) in South America meant that nobody was in any doubt that the Doctrine could and would be backed by US forces.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 1:41:25 PM
Hi Colin,

Excellent response, your right the US really couldn't stop a naval power from attacking the Americas early on! The doctrine goes back to 1823, the USN wasn't strong enough to hold off for example the RN. Your also right that Britain, & the US became more cordial to each other after the War of 1812. Later the US's Great White Fleet (early 1900's) showed the world with their global trip, that the USN had arrived!? What say you? Anyone??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 1:53:19 PM
Quote:
Quote:
2014 Canadian Ice hockey star John Beliveau dies, where does he rate as a NHL player? To me he in away reminds me of Gordy Howe, in that he was a big guy, who was tough, & skilled, A fixture with the great Montreal teams of the original 6!? What say you??


Béliveau ranks as one of the top ten players of all time. He and Howe entered the Hall of Fame in 1972, at the same time. They were competitors but also good friends.

But Béliveau was a centre and a brilliant play maker who could also score. He was big. His nickname was "Le Gros Bill" because he resembled an actor in some movie.

But he wasn't a rough and tumble type like Howe. I would describe his play as more elegant than brutish. The man won 10 Stanley Cups as a player and another 7 as a member of Montréal's management team. His country named him as a Companion of the Order of Canada and his province of Québec named him to the Ordre Nationale du Québec.

Montréal badgered him when he was a star in the Québec Senior Amateur League. He didn't want to play pro initially. Montréal wanted his name on the NHL "C" form which would have bound him to Montréal for life. That's what it was like in the old days. He said no but did sign a "B" form which would give Montréal first dibs should he turn pro. Still he refused so Montréal bought the whole Québec amateur league and turned it pro. Then they called up Béliveau in 1953 and he never looked back.

His record stands for itself. A true gentleman and a brilliant hockey player.

Cheers,

George





George,

Both of these 1972 NHL HoFer's, were great! But you wonder which one had the greater supporting cast??

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 2:46:07 PM
Quote:
Hi Colin,

Excellent response, your right the US really couldn't stop a naval power from attacking the Americas early on! The doctrine goes back to 1823, the USN wasn't strong enough to hold off for example the RN. Your also right that Britain, & the US became more cordial to each other after the War of 1812. Later the US's Great White Fleet (early 1900's) showed the world with their global trip, that the USN had arrived!? What say you? Anyone??

Regards,
MD


Colin and Dave, I agree that the US could have done little to enforce a policy like Manifest Destiny in 1823, but it is interesting that the interpretation of the philosophy changed and became more forceful as the US became more powerful.

Dave I disagree that the relationship between the US and Britain was positive after the War of 1812. It may have become more cordial, as you say, but Britain and certainly its colonies in Canada were very angry and wary of the US. The invasion of Canada was perceived as an attempt to annex all British territory and post war there was considerable effort made to improve defences. The great Wellington had made a survey of Canadian defences and at his recommendation fortresses at Halifax and Québec were improved. Canals like the Rideau were constructed in Upper Canada, not for economic reasons, but to ensure safe passage of goods without having to risk travel on the St. Lawrence River or the lower Great Lakes.

Threats to annex Canada appeared from time to time quite often and became rather more forceful during the US Civil War when the US suggested that Britain and Canada were doing little to mitigate the threat posed by Confederate agents operating in Montréal and Toronto. Invasion was closer than we think though Lincoln didn't want to fight two wars at the same time.

The question for Canada was always whether Canada was considered part of group of American states that the US had declared, through the doctrine, would not be subject to re-colonization by former European masters. Was Canada protected by the US or was it potentially collateral damage should relations between Britain and the US go south.

It is noteworthy that when Monroe read his speech, he did not condemn colonial powers already operating in the northern or southern hemispheres. His initial goal was to thwart Spain's ambitions to re-establish itself in the hemispheres. With the decline of Spanish influence and independence in Spanish colonies, the US had built solid trade relationships with these states and did not wish to lose that advantage. I believe that the US was still servicing war debts from the revolution in 1823. Monroe was very concerned that other powers in Europe that he called the "allied powers" were going to assist Spain in its ambitions in North and South America.

So as I said, the doctrine expanded in scope as the decades passed. This was not Monroe's original intent. He wasn't opposed to Britain or others owning territory in the hemispheres but he did not want further expansion or any newcomers making an appearance on the scene.

Quote:
"with the existing colonies or dependencies of any European power we have not interfered and shall not interfere"


Monroe did include a warning. He said that should other European nations attempt to impose their will in the hemisphere or to aid another power in doing so the US would consider that to be, "dangerous to our peace and safety."

The Doctrine was stated so vaguely that specific states were not mentioned and as other states became independent, they too came under the umbrella of the Monroe Doctrine. There was no need to state that specifically when Brazil declared independence in 1824. At any time that an amalgamated group of states decided to devolve into individual entities, those states were automatically assumed to be doctrine states.

By the 1840's the US had also decided:

1. That European colonial powers could not transfer ownership of territory from one power to another even if the citizens of that state were in favour.

2. That no "American state" could surrender its sovereignty to any other foreign power even if that is what it wished to do.

3. No power could assist a government of a state to remain in power when it was clear that the population of the state did not want that.

It is ironic that the US has on numerous occasions violated number three.

By 1900, the US declared that no state could occupy an American state to collect debts.

In 1912, the US was upset that a Japanese company was going to lease a port in Mexico and was fearful that Mexico would become a client state of Japan even though the government of Japan was not taking out the lease. The result was that Asiatic powers were added to the list of countries whose behaviour was regulated by the Monroe Doctrine.


Now President Teddy Roosevelt added his spin on the doctrine that has become known as the Roosevelt Corollary.

Quote:
The corollary states that the United States could intervene in the internal affairs of Latin American countries if they committed flagrant wrongdoings that "loosened the ties of civilized society".


So what of Canada? In 1938 and on the brink of war, Canada invited FDR to make a speech at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. In that speech, FDR said a number of things including:

Quote:
“We as good neighbours are true friends, because we maintain our own rights with frankness, because we refuse to accept the twists of secret diplomacy, because we settle our disputes by consultation and because we discuss our common problems in the spirit of the common good.”


And this:

Quote:
“I give to you assurance that the people of the United States will not stand idly by if domination of Canadian soil is threatened,”


With Canada facing the prospect of a second world war, I can tell you that this statement was received very well in Canada.

The US seems wedded to this policy. Sometimes that policy can be beneficial. Other times when it has been enforced it may be viewed as a violation of state sovereignty.

Cheers,

George









Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 3:26:54 PM
About this time in 1940 the Lockheed Air Craft Corp. develops the P-38, which shortly after became feared by the Luftwaffe, & the IJA ! Was it because of its double body design, speed, & versatility? Anyone on this aircraft & why it was so successful!?

MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 5:07:19 PM
The Forked Tailed Devil didn't scare anyone. Not even Yamamoto. (He probably didn't see it coming.) Charles Lindbergh reportedly assisted the ambush team by teaching them his technique for extending range by careful throttle settings. (The euphemism is due to me not having a reference for that immediately on hand.) Don't know if that made up for his being wildly snookered by Goring and the boys when he toured Germany pre-war.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 6:13:37 PM
About this time in 1940 the Lockheed Air Craft Corp. develops the P-38, which shortly after became feared by the Luftwaffe, & the IJA ! Was it because of its double body design, speed, & versatility? Anyone on this aircraft & why it was so successful!?

The P-38 antedates 1940, particularly if you are talking about development. It was developed in response to a USAAC specification of 1937, and had set records by 1939. It was radical in three major ways: it had a tricycle landing gear, counter-rotating props, and an odd turbo system that resulted in the tail boom pods. But in 1939, Britain placed an order for 660+ P-38s – without the turbo-charging and without the counter-rotating props. The resulting a/c was adjudged inadequate and the order cancelled; remaining P-38s became training aircraft for the USAAC. Later, of course, its speed and long-range capabilities brought it back to life, and it earned itself a decent reputation in reconnaissance and as a fighter-bomber. I think the “fork-tailed devil” epithet is a bit extreme, but I think it was a pretty damned good a/c.

There was another US a/c which suffered during its early history because of it’s radical design: the P-39 or Airacobra, the shortest of any allied combat a/c (and not much longer than the original Fw-190 or even the F version of the Bf-109). It too had quirks: it was mid-engined; tricycle-mounted; oddly (but heavily) gunned. The argument is that pilots felt vulnerable straddling the drive-shaft and uneasy with the tricycle gear, while the mechanics were less than happy to work on an unorthodox design..

Lots more to chat about, but I think both a/c were ahead of their time and proved themselves later in the war. The Soviets, e.g., loved the P-39 as a tank buster, and the US sent them under Lend-Lease.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2023 10:39:07 PM
December's history! 12-1, not commented on yet??

1814 General Andrew Jackson arrives in New Orleans & prepares as it turns out to rout the British! Why would the battle be so one sided!? Anyone??

1913 Henry Ford comes up with the 1st Assembly line, in Detroit for Ford Motor Co., making Cars affordable!? any websites or comments?? What cars are made in your country? Anyone??

1925 European powers sign a treaty guaranteeing peace in Europe! Yeah sure!? What say you?? Why couldn't this work, at this time? Anyone??

1959 12 countries sign the Antarctic Treaty, making it a non military, scientific only continent! Does your country have a base there?? Any one have a map of all the bases of Antarctica, Comments, & websites welcome??

Regards,
MD

Also on this day, is the Rosa Parks, back of the bus episode, what say you about that??

BTW thanks Brian, on your informative take on the P-38, I was hoping your expertise on the subject, would come!! How did the plane measure up to other Allied fighter-bombers, speed wise, armament wise, & other wise?? It did a great job on shooting down Game pros plane, coming from long range! Any websites or videos on this fascinating plane!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/3/2023 8:09:09 AM

12-3, today in history;

1828 Andrew Jackson elected the 7 th US President, very controversial in many ways, perhaps the worst was his terrible treatment of Native Americans!? What say you??

1854, in Victoria, Australia, at the Eurika Stockade. Oz Diggers clash with government forces over gold fields! How did this play out in Australian history? Who were these Diggers anyway?Anyone from Oz here to help??

1868 the 1st black jurors appointed in the trial of Reb. President Jefferson Davis! Ironic isn't it?? Comments?

1917 after 20 years of trying, & 2 collapses the Quebec Bridge opens! What was the problems with this tough engineering project!? Anyone have the story?

1933 Arthur Currie's funeral is attended by 150 K, Canadians! Why was he so popular? Help us out here??

1984 Gas leak in India 20,000 die! What's the story on this? & Who was to blame? Anyone??

12-4, tomorrow in world history the following occurred, comments or new events??

1093 New Arch Bishop of Canterbury, what's the big deal with Canterbury's leaders? Can someone explain this, you hear it in English litature, & history? Help us our??

1533 Ivan the Terrible named Grand Prince of Moscow! Why is he called the Terrible? Anyone??

1679 English Philosopher, Thomas Hobbes dies! How did he see things? What's his take?? What say you??

1918, Woodrow Wilson founds the League of Nations, then the US doesn't even join? What's up with that?? Comments on why Wilson's lead wasn't followed by his own countrymen??

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/3/2023 9:38:03 AM
Quote:
1933 Arthur Currie's funeral is attended by 150 K, Canadians! Why was he so popular? Help us out here??


General Arthur Currie was the commander of the Canadian Corps. He took command in June of 1917 and was considered one of the best of the generals on the British side.

The Canadian Corps distinguished itself while under Currie's command. Hill 70, Passchendaele, Arras, Canal du Nord, Vincennes, Mons. That's just a few. During the final 100 days, the Canadian Corps cemented its status as one of the finest forces in the British Army.

There were rumours that Currie had been considered to command the whole British army, replacing Haig. That may have just been the musings of British PM David Lloyd George. I have also read that the great Australian General Monash was given the same consideration.

At home Currie suffered from a movement by the insane former Defence Minister, Sam Hughes, to discredit Currie. Hughes was angry that Currie did not appoint his son, Garnet Hughes, to command a division in the Canadian Corps. Currie, despite being friends initially with Garnet, determined that he was simply not a very good choice to command a fighting division. This led to a never ending hatred from Sam Hughes.

Currie was not well loved by his men. Some thought that he sought out the toughest jobs for them just to bring glory to himself. That was untrue. Currie would fight and argue for time to plan his set piece attacks. He would gather his artillery support and plan meticulously to ensure that his men had the best chance for survival.

The Corps did take many casualties but it was extremely successful under Arthur Currie.

Post war he was the President of McGill University. He was very supportive of the Legion and veterans in general. I dare to say that most Canadians know little about this man despite his recognized brilliance as a leader of his nation's army.

An article from Legion magazine about Arthur Currie

[Read More]

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/3/2023 12:51:48 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1933 Arthur Currie's funeral is attended by 150 K, Canadians! Why was he so popular? Help us out here??


General Arthur Currie was the commander of the Canadian Corps. He took command in June of 1917 and was considered one of the best of the generals on the British side.

The Canadian Corps distinguished itself while under Currie's command. Hill 70, Passchendaele, Arras, Canal du Nord, Vincennes, Mons. That's just a few. During the final 100 days, the Canadian Corps cemented its status as one of the finest forces in the British Army.

There were rumours that Currie had been considered to command the whole British army, replacing Haig. That may have just been the musings of British PM David Lloyd George. I have also read that the great Australian General Monash was given the same consideration.

At home Currie suffered from a movement by the insane former Defence Minister, Sam Hughes, to discredit Currie. Hughes was angry that Currie did not appoint his son, Garnet Hughes, to command a division in the Canadian Corps. Currie, despite being friends initially with Garnet, determined that he was simply not a very good choice to command a fighting division. This led to a never ending hatred from Sam Hughes.

Currie was not well loved by his men. Some thought that he sought out the toughest jobs for them just to bring glory to himself. That was untrue. Currie would fight and argue for time to plan his set piece attacks. He would gather his artillery support and plan meticulously to ensure that his men had the best chance for survival.

The Corps did take many casualties but it was extremely successful under Arthur Currie.

Post war he was the President of McGill University. He was very supportive of the Legion and veterans in general. I dare to say that most Canadians know little about this man despite his recognized brilliance as a leader of his nation's army.

An article from Legion magazine about Arthur Currie

[Read More]

Cheers,

George





George,

Nice post on Gen. Arthur Currie, having not known about Canadian General Currie, just shows how we in the states live under a shell when it comes to knowing other countries commanders, & giving them their due!? Sorry!

Regards,
MD

BTW if Gen. Currie, won but took to many casualties, can we compare him to CW Union General USS Grant, who has that reputation!? Anyone?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/3/2023 2:05:10 PM
Quote:
BTW if Gen. Currie, won but took to many casualties, can we compare him to CW Union General USS Grant, who has that reputation!? Anyone?


MD, It would be difficult to compare one general involved in highly mechanized and technical warfare in 1914-18 with one who fought in the US Civil War. I understand that the civil war is often called the first modern war because of the use of superior weapons produced industrially on a mass basis. But the Great War was several steps above that in terms of losses and mechanization and weaponry.

The Canadians Corps took casualties at a high rate but so did many other units in the British army. Some even more. It was a bloody affair.

The US Civil War saw 620,000 deaths of military personnel. WW1 numbers are closer to 10 million with 5.7 million being allied military personnel.

But a discussion of Grant's losses and the reasons behind them would be educational though perhaps controversial. The controversy surrounding Arthur Currie had more to do with his enemies at home trying to discredit the man, rather unfairly I thought. When given an assignment and an objective, he undertook the task with meticulous planning. He was adept at the design of the set piece battle and more than willing to adopt the changes in tactics developed by the British and to add his own flare to operations.

In one case, at Passchendaele, Currie told Haig that Passchendaele wasn't worth the losses that would be taken. He told Haig forcefully that 16, 000 Canadian casualties would be taken just to remove the Germans from Passchendaele ridge. He was ordered to do it and he went ahead and nearly 16,000 casualties were the result. Currie was actually behaving in an insubordinate manner when he spoke with Haig but Haig didn't sack him because he and the British knew that Currie had the support of the Canadian government.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/3/2023 4:58:07 PM
George and Dave,

Haig respected Currie . In the great battles of the Hundred Days, Haig took Currie’s advice in preference to that of one of his army commanders. Horne, Commander of British First Army, argued for a different tactical approach from that of Currie, a Corps Commander. Haig overruled Horne and accepted Currie’s plan for the fight at the Canal du Nord.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/3/2023 9:22:33 PM
Quote:
George and Dave,

Haig respected Currie . In the great battles of the Hundred Days, Haig took Currie’s advice in preference to that of one of his army commanders. Horne, Commander of British First Army, argued for a different tactical approach from that of Currie, a Corps Commander. Haig overruled Horne and accepted Currie’s plan for the fight at the Canal du Nord.

Regards, Phil


Thanks Phil,

The Battle of Canal du Nord was risky and in the end costly. But it was an important victory as eliminating the enemy throught the Drocourt-Quéant (DQ) line and then the Canal du Nord to Cambrai would turn the flanks on the Hindenburg Line. Success would break the back of the German defence and send them on a retreat.

That's what happened but the Corps took 30,000 casualties in the Arras sector and the Canal du Nord.

The controversy over Canal du Nord, as I recall, was because Currie wanted to send his troops through a small uncompleted dry bed of the canal which was only 2600 yards wide. If the Germans chose to counter with artillery at that spot, two divisions of Currie's Corps would have been destroyed. Many British officers felt that Currie's plan was too risky.

Gen. Horne visited Currie and listened to him and then granted permission. Almost immediately Horne wanted to cancel that order. Gen. Julian Byng was sent to speak with Currie. I don't know whether he was sent by Haig or Horne but most of what I have read suggests that Horne wanted Byng's opinion.

Byng had been the commander of the corps before Currie when Currie was his commander of the 1st division. Byng listened to Currie and said that he would tell Horne that he thought that the Canadians could do it. But he said to Currie, "“Do you realize that you are attempting one of the most difficult operations of the war? If anybody can do it, the Canadians can do it, but if you fail, it means home for you.”

The story is that either Horne reluctantly approved or was ordered to approve by Haig who desperately wanted to push the Germans back at the top end of the Hindenburg Line. I tend to agree with Phil's account that Horne was overruled.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/4/2023 8:31:09 AM

12-4, Today in World History, A few events were?

1093 New Arch Bishop of Canterbury, what's the big deal with Canterbury's leaders? Can someone explain this, you hear it in English litature, & history? Help us out??

1533 Ivan the Terrible named Grand Prince of Moscow! Why is he called the Terrible? Anyone??

1679 English Philosopher, Thomas Hobbes dies! How did he see things? What's his take?? What say you?

1918, Woodrow Wilson founds the League of Nations, then the US doesn't even join? What's up with that?? Comments on why??

12-5, tomorrow the following, any responses or new events??

1484, the Pope condemned Witchcraft! How superstitious they were back then!? Do you believe they actually believed that witches were real? So thats why the hysteria? Comments?

1901 Walt Disney born, is there a Disney land property outside the US? Where? & why was Disney World in Florida threatened?? Anyone?? What say you?

1952 A deadly fog covers London killing thousands!? How could this possibly happen?? Comments?

1913 Nelson Mandela dies how did he change South African social standards!? Was he a great man?? What say you?

2017 why is Russia banned from the Winter Olympics of 2018?? Anyone??

Lots to discuss here!
Regards,
MD

BTW approximately how far would the Japanese strike fleet be from.Pearl Harbor on this day in 1941? To late to turn back, plus it's not their way? What say you??

George,

You mention the Canal was only 2,600 yards wide, that seems like a fair amount, like 25 football fields. Especially. when you consider the narrow trench's they normally moved through?? But I guess to artillery, & machine guns it condenses the target area?? What say you?

& Phil, nice comment on Commonwealth commanders working together on battle plans!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/4/2023 11:29:52 AM
Quote:
George,

You mention the Canal was only 2,600 yards wide, that seems like a fair amount, like 25 football fields. Especially. when you consider the narrow trench's they normally moved through?? But I guess to artillery, & machine guns it condenses the target area?? What say you?


Hello Dave,

I may have described the canal incorrectly. Today that canal is 95 km long.

What I meant to describe was that Currie had found a section that was under construction so that the canal bed was dry. The water from the already completed parts was dammed up. Construction on the Canal du Nord had begun in 1913 so when the war began, some parts were finished and others were not.

The Germans had destroyed the bridges that crossed the canal over the wet sections.


Quote:
The canal was approximately 40 yd (37 m) wide, with a western bank that was between 10 and 15 ft (3.0 and 4.6 m) high and an eastern bank about 5 ft (1.5 m) high.[3



Currie's battle plan called for sending two divisions over 2600 yards of dry bed. But the canal was still only 40 yards wide. Once on the other side the Canadians were supposed to fan out and head for their short and long term objectives. I am not a soldier but sending two divisions through a gap like that is supposed to be risky. There would be some congestion and if the Germans had decided to loose their artillery upon them, it could have been devastating.

I must note that other British divisions were engaged in diversionary attacks in other sections of the canal and so the Germans did not appreciate the extent of the Canadian attack until it was too late.

As well, the attack on Canal du Nord was only one of several in that period that the allies were engaged in. I believe that Meuse-Argonne began a day earlier. The attack on the St. Quentin canal was two days before the Battle of Canal du Nord. The Germans were under attack in many places as the allies sought to defeat them.







Cheers,

George

DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/4/2023 12:20:43 PM
Some good pics from this youtube video: [Read More]

Dan

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/4/2023 3:13:00 PM
Quote:
Some good pics from this youtube video: [Read More]

Dan




Thank you, Dan. Great photographs.

This was a difficult battle and a great deal of bravery was exhibited. 8 Canadian soldiers were awarded the VC and 4 British soldiers were as well.

Cheers,

George

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