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Message
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 9:26:25 AM
George,

What worries me is that my intense interest on this topic will lead me to unleash so much information onto my friends here on the forum that I’ll become a bore and deter people from discussing the subject !

There are several features of the figures that might be emphasised. The US casualty figures were very inflated by a remarkably large number of gas cases.
Seventy thousand, which is disproportionately high and leads one to suspect that this might reflect inexperience. OTOH, the mortality among those admitted to medical care suffering from gas poisoning was barely two percent. Gas warfare reached its zenith in 1918 : more British soldiers were gassed in 1918 than in all the previous years combined. The same goes for POWs. The result of these two categories being combined was to produce the highest casualty figures in 1918, with commentators inferring that it was the deadliest year. But more British soldiers were actually killed in 1917. The French took appallingly high fatal casualties in the first two years. As for the Germans, one third of all their casualties on the Western Front were incurred in 1918. The cost of their offensive in the spring and early summer was staggering. In the subsequent fighting of mid July to the Armistice, the total was largely attributable to the great number of prisoners they yielded. It’s vital to remember, of course, that in the previous years Germany was heavily committed against the Russians, with some very heavy casualties suffered on that front, too.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 11:23:04 AM
Guys,

On 12-8 check these out!? Moved from previous page for more possible discussions?

1542 Mary Queen of Scots was born, 6 days later she is the Queen of Scotland!? Say what? Yeah sure 6 days old & she's the Queen!? Do you believe it? I don't!!! Comments anyone??

1980 John Lennon shot in NY City! Who would want to kill one of the Beatles! Sick!? What say you?

2016 Astronaut John Glenn dies at 95, later he becomes the senator from Ohio! Comments on his life?

12-9, below! Today in history,

1868 the worlds first traffic light is in London! Boy I sure hate Rotories, I'm like Chevy Chase in European Vacation, once in, I can't get out!? ☺ Ill take a traffic light any day! What say you?? Thanks George, for your take!

1958 the John Birch Society is in full swing!? I don't get it? Johnny Cash wrote a humorous song about them!? ? What's up with it? Anyone??

1998 the UN declares anti semitisim the same as racism!? Did it help??

1929 Robert Hawke Prime Minister of Australia is born! Was he a good bloke?? Any Aussie comments??

& finally tomorrow, 12-10, in today in history?? The following happened!?

1884 Mark Twains Huckleberry Finn is released in Canada, A year later in the US!? Why Canada 1st?? Anyone??

1898 the treaty of Paris ending the Spanish American War, Did Spain make out like bandits in it? What say you? Jingo bells Jingo bells, Jingo all the way?? ☺

1901 Alfred Noble the inventor of dynamite started the Noble Peace Prize!? Yeah sure! What say you??

1948 the UN adopts the Declaration of Human Rights! What countries refuse to follow them? Anyone??

Again anything to discuss here!?
Regards,
MD


BTW Phil, & George, if you wish continue your intriguing discussion on WWI casualties!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 11:49:14 AM
Quote:
1884 Mark Twains Huckleberry Finn is released in Canada, A year later in the US!? Why Canada 1st?? Anyone??


This was a ploy by Twain to subvert the attempts by publishing pirates to publish his books without paying him a cent. This was before the days of international copyright laws.

Toronto apparently was a hotbed of book piracy. They would print copies of books that had not been copyrighted in Canada. They had done so with Twain's novel, Tom Sawyer, and it cost Twain a lot of money.

The pirates were even bold enough to print copies and then sell them in the US as well as Canada. Anyway Twain decided that if he could write a book and have it copyrighted in Canada first, this would thwart the pirates. The problem was that Canadian copyright laws required the person seeking the copyright to be living in the country.

So Twain went on a speaking tour in the US and Canada. Over a four month period, Twain and another famous author gave more than one hundred performances in over eighty cities.

Twain arranged the schedule so that he would be in Canada on the exact date that, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, was published and released and for which he had filed for copyright in Canada.
The pirates could not print illegal copies of the book because it, unlike Tom Sawyer, was protected property in Canada.

If he had released Finn in the US first, the pirates would have had copies printed within days.

Within ten years, international copyright laws had been adopted to put an end to the sort of piracy that had seen Twain lose so much income.

A short article describing Twain's plot to thwart the publishing pirates in Toronto.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 1:11:34 PM
Quote:
1898 the treaty of Paris ending the Spanish American War, Did Spain make out like bandits in it? What say you? Jingo bells Jingo bells, Jingo all the way?? ☺


I trust that you're joking, MD. Spain lost many of it territories in its Empire and the US joined all of the other powers as an imperialist nation.

The war was prosecuted for the flimsiest of reasons. Ostensibly the US went to war because a warship, the Maine, blew up in Havana, Cuba. But despite the tenets of Manifest Destiny that guided US foreign policy, there was still an interest in removing Spain as a player in the Americas. No matter that Spain's interest in territory in North America predated the existence of the US by over two centuries.

There was also sympathy for the Cuban people and the way that Spain treated them and the Filipinos.

The US won the war handily and under the treaty claimed the Spanish territories of Guam, Puerto Rico and the Philippines and Cuba. The US did agree to purchase the Philippines for $20 million.

Spain had to assume a Cuban debt of $400 million. Spain didn't have the money. That's why they ceded Puerto Rico and Guam as indemnity against the loan.

Spain protested most of the articles of the treaty but they had no clout as the losers in the war.

The US Senate opposed the terms of the treaty as they saw them as the US foray into imperialism, something that the country had opposed since its inception, having gone to war to remove control of the colonies by another imperial power, Great Britain.

It is notable that post-revolution the US found itself in conflict with two of the nations, France and Spain, that had provided financial and military support as the American colonists fought for independence.

For those who like this sort of stuff, here is the text of the Treaty of Paris that ended the Spanish-American War.

[Read More]

I don't see much that Spain got out of it. One article does give them the right to maintain consular offices in the cities in towns of territories that it used to claim as its own.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 1:48:26 PM
Hyman Rickover did a study of the Maine explosion and concluded it was a coal bunker explosion, i.e., not sabotage. There's a copy of the report on file at Purdue if anyone wants to see it.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 1:54:41 PM
Quote:
Hyman Rickover did a study of the Maine explosion and concluded it was a coal bunker explosion, i.e., not sabotage. There's a copy of the report on file at Purdue if anyone wants to see it.


OP I find these reports confusing. Haven't there been several reviews of the Maine explosion with some confirming an external attack and others confirming and internal explosion? I never know what to believe.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 3:41:41 PM
I've seen a few, Rickover's was the most thorough of those I reviewed. (At one point I was considering doing my doctoral on the event.)

Bona fides: Rickover was the officer who pushed for the nuclear submarines. Real hard ass from what I've been told.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 5:38:32 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1898 the treaty of Paris ending the Spanish American War, Did Spain make out like bandits in it? What say you? Jingo bells Jingo bells, Jingo all the way?? ☺


I trust that you're joking, MD. Spain lost many of it territories in its Empire and the US joined all of the other powers as an imperialist nation.

The war was prosecuted for the flimsiest of reasons. Ostensibly the US went to war because a warship, the Maine, blew up in Havana harbor!

The US won the war handily and under the treaty claimed the Spanish territories of Guam, Puerto Rico and the Philippines and Cuba. The US did agree to purchase the Philippines for $20 million.

Spain had to assume a Cuban debt of $400 million. Spain didn't have the money. That's why they ceded Puerto Rico and Guam as indemnity against the loan.

For those who like this sort of stuff, here is the text of the Treaty of Paris that ended the Spanish-American War.

[Read More]

I don't see much that Spain got out of it. One article does give them the right to maintain consular offices in the cities in towns of territories that it used to claim as its own.

Cheers,

George




Hi George,

Yeah I'm joking, Jingoism is a term used by Imperialists in the US at this time, I was kidding putting it to the song, Jingle Bells!? ☺ But the US was glad to get Guam, & Puerto Rico, now US territories!! Not sure how the USS Maine sank??

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 5:46:37 PM
The US granted the PI their liberty in 1946. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/july-4-1946-philippines-independence. Colonialism, especially "coaling stations" continued on after the SpanAm War was over.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 7:10:48 PM
1958 the John Birch Society is in full swing!? I don't get it? Johnny Cash wrote a humorous song about them!? ? What's up with it? Anyone??

MD, can you tell me more about Johnny Cash’s song? I don’t remember it at all, and google didn’t help. I know that the Limelighters, a folk trio of the late 50s-early 60s, did a fine attack on the JBS which included the line: “… Socialism is the -ism dismalest of all…” – which everybody I knew took as mockery. Bob Dylan too wrote a (mot all that good, IMHO) attack on the JBS called the Talking John Birch Society Blues (one of his many “Talking … Blues” songs), in which the singer– having found reason to hate 98% of everything and everybody he knows – starts investigating himself. It seems to me that many young stand-up comics (Mort Sahl, Smothers Brothers, Bob Newhart come to mind) made mock as well, as did Rowan and Martin’s “Laugh In.”

As to the John Birch Society itself, it is IMHO most readily understood as a political outgrowth of the McCarthy era “red scare”. While McCarthyism itself was blotted out, the fear of “communism” as as an intellectual, social and political  poison remained strong amongst conservatives. Hence the growth of the JBS. My understanding is that while the values of the JBS had on-going political and economic support (think Mr Goldwater; think General Curtis LeMay), the political climate (largely, perhaps, because of the impact of the Vietnam War) reduced its impact as a society. Many of the JBS values are still valued current, and have found expression through such movements as the Tea-pot movement, which some say morphed into the MAGA movement of today.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 7:14:28 PM
A Bircher battle cry was "Unleash Chiang Kai Shek!" They wanted the US to attack Red China. They didn't learn anything from the Japanese evidently.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 8:13:22 PM
1958 the John Birch Society is in full swing!? I don't get it? Johnny Cash wrote a humorous song about them!? ? What's up with it? Anyone??

MD, can you tell me more about Johnny Cash’s song? I don’t remember it at all, and google didn’t help.

Cheers,
Brian G.


Hi Brian,

I was wrong, it wasn't Johnny Cash, it was Charlie Daniels and his band. The song was called, " Uneasy Rider"! Daniels just sounded vocally like Cash in this tune!?

Try googling that, & listen to the whole thing, perhaps someone could post it on YouTube or something, ( my tablet won't let me post websites, so please help!). One line goes " I'm a faithful follower of brother John Birch, & I belong to the Antioch Baptist Church!" Kind of a humorous take off on a hippie type going in a red neck bar, & catching a lot of grief, also taking in the great cult classic, "Easy Rider" with the title of the song!!

Check it out!
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/9/2023 10:05:34 PM
It was the high point of the Birchers. I didn't mean to imply that they were a major force. I saw homemade Bircher signs along the highways in Indiana when I was riding the bus to school, in the '60s.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2023 8:05:37 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1884 Mark Twains Huckleberry Finn is released in Canada, A year later in the US!? Why Canada 1st?? Anyone??


This was a ploy by Twain to subvert the attempts by publishing pirates to publish his books without paying him a cent. This was before the days of international copyright laws.

Toronto apparently was a hotbed of book piracy. They would print copies of books that had not been copyrighted in Canada. They had done so with Twain's novel, Tom Sawyer, and it cost Twain a lot of money.

The pirates were even bold enough to print copies and then sell them in the US as well as Canada. Anyway Twain decided that if he could write a book and have it copyrighted in Canada first, this would thwart the pirates. The problem was that Canadian copyright laws required the person seeking the copyright to be living in the country.

So Twain went on a speaking tour in the US and Canada. Over a four month period, Twain and another famous author gave more than one hundred performances in over eighty cities.

Twain arranged the schedule so that he would be in Canada on the exact date that, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, was published and released and for which he had filed for copyright in Canada.
The pirates could not print illegal copies of the book because it, unlike Tom Sawyer, was protected property in Canada.

If he had released Finn in the US first, the pirates would have had copies printed within days.

Within ten years, international copyright laws had been adopted to put an end to the sort of piracy that had seen Twain lose so much income.

A short article describing Twain's plot to thwart the publishing pirates in Toronto.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George





Thanks George,

A fascinating story on the lengths Twain had to go to to protect his authorship & texts! So now I suppose Canada claims him for their own?? ☺ The literary pirates had to make a bundle on Tom Sawyer, nasty pirates!!??

Nice website article on it as well!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2023 8:12:25 AM
Again in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor, here are the declarations of war from Germany, & Italy, along with a lot of documents pertaining to the historical time frame! Thank OP. for the great site!

Quote:
Hi OP,

Again I turned your website into an easy "read more", for easy access!

Thanks for the site!
All kinds of documentation!
Check it out MHO, & discuss them! ☺
MD

[Read More]

HITLER ANNOUNCED TO THE REICHSTAG THE DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE UNITED STATES
December 11, 1941
MUSSOLINI'S WAR STATEMENT
Rome, December 11, 1941
THE GERMAN DECLARATION OF WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES
December 11, 1941




BTW feel free to comment on any of them they are great discussion starters! Anyone??

For example Hitler already had bit off more than he could chew in Europe! & then he declares war on the US!? This also proves he was crazy mad!!?? What could he possibly be thinking?? What say you??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2023 11:13:13 AM
Quote:



BTW Phil, & George, if you wish continue your intriguing discussion on WWI casualties!


Just published, in the last three or four months, a remarkable piece of research , the like of which I’ve never seen before :

“ SCARS OF WAR:

The Legacy of WW1 deaths on civic capital and combat motivation.”



That phrase “ Civic Capital” intrigues me.

This is what the authors pitched as the introduction to a survey of astonishing detail and extent:

“ What drives soldiers to risk their lives in combat ? We show that the legacy of war creates lasting conditions that encourage younger generations to take greater risks when fighting for their country. Using individual - level data from over 4 million British war records, we show that WW1 deaths deeply affected local communities and the behaviour of the next generation of soldiers. Servicemen from localities that suffered heavier losses in WW1 were more likely to die or be awarded military honours for bravery in WW2. To explain these findings, we document that WW1 deaths promoted civic capital in the inter-war period - as demonstrated by the creation of lasting war memorials, veterans’ associations and charities, and increased voter participation. In addition, we show that sons of soldiers killed in combat in WW1 were more likely to die in combat, suggesting that both community- level and family-level transmission of values were important in this context.”

There follow seventy five pages of infinitely complex algorithmic calculations of the records of 14,000 British parishes, demonstrating that the sons of British soldiers killed 1914-18 were appreciably more likely to die 1939-45.

I’ve encountered many analyses of WW1 casualties, but nothing that has raised this question and it’s something of a surprise to me.

Regards, Phil


----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2023 12:23:07 PM
"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2023 1:13:45 PM
Quote:
"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."


These statistics are damnably thorough !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2023 6:29:48 PM
Have you looked at the numbers they chose to not include? I haven't, not going down that rabbit hole.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2023 2:34:50 AM
Quote:
Have you looked at the numbers they chose to not include? I haven't, not going down that rabbit hole.


You do have a point here, l must confess.

It’s an absolute labyrinth of complexity in its presentation, although the message being conveyed is a simple one.

It’s certainly worth considering that message.

If it applies to British public and private life in the inter war period, does the same syndrome hold true for other nations and societies ? And what of different eras ?

Might we contemplate present day conflicts in the light of this ?

I have found myself reflecting on deterioration of standards of conduct in the political life of this country,
and can’t suppress the thought that this is , perhaps, attributable to the passing of the generations that went through the furnace of world wars and sought to perpetuate the high standards that were demanded of them.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2023 8:33:34 AM
On Dec. 11, 1931 the British Parliament passed the Statute of Westminster.

Prior to this, Britain had granted Dominion status to a number of colonies including Canada and Australia. This allowed for some degree of independence.

When Canada's colonies sought to amalgamate in 1867 they originally suggested that the new country be called the, "Kingdom of Canada". But the British were concerned that the Americans would be extremely upset by the reinforcement of British imperialism in that name. Confederation followed closely on the heels of the US Civil War and there had already been antagonism demonstrated between the two sides.

And so one of the Canadian, Fathers of Confederation suggested the, "Dominion of Canada". The British thought that that was a good idea. They had used the word before in North America to describe the Kingdom of New England.

So what did Dominion status confer? It acknowledged the amalgamation of colonies in Canada and gave them self governing rights with the understanding that greater responsibility for self-defence would be part of the deal. By the early 20th century, Britain referred to Canada, Newfoundland, Australia, New Zealand, the Irish Free State and South Africa as "Dominions".

What was not conferred was the authority to develop and pursue independent foreign policies. As well Britain could still impose control over Dominion legislatures should it so choose.

For several decades the Dominions had clamoured and lobbied for fully independent status. There had been acts of independence in which the Dominion of Canada pursued its own foreign policy anyway but without official permission. Canada had refused to send troops to fight in Turkey and had negotiated its own fishing treaty with the US. I do not know the histories of the other Dominions to be able to say whether they pursued independent foreign policies without legal permission.

The blood spilled by the Dominion soldiers in WW1 gave impetus to the movement toward full independence. Dominions like Canada insisted that that was owed to them because of their sacrifices.

Specific to Canada, in 1926 there was a constitutional crisis when the British born Governor-General overruled a request by the PM to dissolve Parliament to call an election. The PM of the day, W.L. Mackenzie-King did get his election and ran it on a platform of Canadian nationalism arguing that no appointed G-G should interfere with the wishes of the elected Parliament. He swept to power as Canadians grew angry at this interference by a British appointed G-G.

Also in 1926 an Imperial Conference was held in London and a report was written by a man named Balfour which recommended full independent status for the Dominions. Another conference in 1929 worked out the details.

Finally in 1931, the Statute of Westminster was passed. This statute declared that the British Dominions of Canada, Newfoundland, Australia, New Zealand, the Irish Free State and South Africa were now "equal in status" to Britain. This gave them full legal powers in matters of their choosing. Canada did not immediately adopt all of the legal rights available under the statute. For example, Canadian provinces and the federal government could not decide how to amend the constitution which was the British North America Act. And so they asked the British Parliament to retain that legal right. It wasn't until 1982 that Canada finally got its act together and told the British Parliament that it was ready to patriate the constitution.

This was a landmark decision by the British Parliament and welcomed by the former colonies. All accomplished without bloodshed so that was a positive step.

Canada continued to call itself the Dominion of Canada but as I recall it was phased out by the government and the people in the 1960's.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2023 11:28:44 AM
George,

It would seem Canada is more civilized than the US!? Because they were able to gain their independence without bloodshed against the Mother Country!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2023 1:29:37 PM
Quote:
George,

It would seem Canada is more civilized than the US!? Because they were able to gain their independence without bloodshed against the Mother Country!?

Regards,
MD


I cannot say, MD. We just never developed anger toward Britain in a manner that would lead to bloodshed although there were uprisings in Upper and Lower Canada in 1837/38 but these were put down in short order by the British and Canadian militia.

Cynically I must add that Britain had reached a point in 1814 whereby it realized that its colonies were a drain on the finances. Canada was no longer the cash cow that it had been during the heyday of the fur trade though the trade continued. The "Little Englanders" movement was encouraging the British government to get out of the colony business, feeling that the colonies were a drain on financial and human resources. Their call to do so became louder as the 19th century progressed.

The US had invaded Canada in 1812 and made noises about doing the same thing during the US Civil War. Britain needed to lower expenses and the simple creation of the country of Canada with self governing rights was a popular choice in Canada and certainly in Britain. Politicians in Britain were more than happy to support the British colonies in North America in their quest for independence.

As well, when Canada needed money to build defence infrastructure like forts and canals and roads, the financial support was not forthcoming from Britain. This forced Canada to charge tariffs on imported goods and the tariffs were applied to British goods. This upset British manufacturers.

The 20th century saw Canada move closer to the US economically and socially.

So while the ties that bind with Britain were still strong, there were cracks appearing from time to time.

I don't think that Canada was any more civilized than the US but when the British colonies wanted to amalgamate and wanted more independence, they found a willing partner in the Mother Country. That was not the case in 1776.

That doesn't mean that we are culturally exactly the same though. We do have a different attitude toward the role of government. I think that there is more trust in government in Canada. Our laws and constitutions are different too.

There is an appreciation of a collective approach to responsibilities. Co-operation and tolerance are appreciated. Many of us value egalitarianism as an objective to which we should pay more than lip service. I must say that in the last decade there have been challenges to this political and cultural atmosphere that we often use to contrast ourselves with Americans.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2023 8:13:28 PM
With regards to the Philippines after the Treaty of Paris, 1898:

Quote:
The US granted the PI their liberty in 1946. [Read More] Colonialism, especially "coaling stations" continued on after the SpanAm War was over.


From OP!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2023 7:47:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
George,

It would seem Canada is more civilized than the US!? Because they were able to gain their independence without bloodshed against the Mother Country!?

Regards,
MD


I cannot say, MD. We just never developed anger toward Britain in a manner that would lead to bloodshed although there were uprisings in Upper and Lower Canada in 1837/38 but these were put down in short order by the British and Canadian militia.

Cynically I must add that Britain had reached a point in 1814 whereby it realized that its colonies were a drain on the finances. Canada was no longer the cash cow that it had been during the heyday of the fur trade though the trade continued. The "Little Englanders" movement was encouraging the British government to get out of the colony business, feeling that the colonies were a drain on financial and human resources. Their call to do so became louder as the 19th century progressed.

The US had invaded Canada in 1812 and made noises about doing the same thing during the US Civil War. Britain needed to lower expenses and the simple creation of the country of Canada with self governing rights was a popular choice in Canada and certainly in Britain. Politicians in Britain were more than happy to support the British colonies in North America in their quest for independence.

As well, when Canada needed money to build defence infrastructure like forts and canals and roads, the financial support was not forthcoming from Britain. This forced Canada to charge tariffs on imported goods and the tariffs were applied to British goods. This upset British manufacturers.

The 20th century saw Canada move closer to the US economically and socially.

So while the ties that bind with Britain were still strong, there were cracks appearing from time to time.

I don't think that Canada was any more civilized than the US but when the British colonies wanted to amalgamate and wanted more independence, they found a willing partner in the Mother Country. That was not the case in 1776.

That doesn't mean that we are culturally exactly the same though. We do have a different attitude toward the role of government. I think that there is more trust in government in Canada. Our laws and constitutions are different too.

There is an appreciation of a collective approach to responsibilities. Co-operation and tolerance are appreciated. Many of us value egalitarianism as an objective to which we should pay more than lip service. I must say that in the last decade there have been challenges to this political and cultural atmosphere that we often use to contrast ourselves with Americans.

Cheers,

George





Hi George,

Would you say that like the US, that politically, & also somewhat culturally that geography plays a big part where your countrymen stand on those two factors of your nation?? For example people living in the rural areas of the US seem to stand quite differently than those in US cities, religion & race seem to influence those areas as well!? I know that cultures play a big role in how Canadians view their government?? Some what true in the US!

Is it somewhat likewise in Canada??

Thanks,& regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2023 8:46:47 AM
Hi Dave,

The urban / rural divide exists in the UK too. By and large, the metropolitan areas like London, Birmingham, Glasgow and Manchester voted to remain in the EU. The sub-urban and rural areas tended to vote to leave the EU, especially in England and Wales. Whilst I am not looking for a debate on Brexit, there is a link between rural voters and conservative political views.

Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2023 11:55:50 AM
Quote:


Hi George,

Would you say that like the US, that politically, & also somewhat culturally that geography plays a big part where your countrymen stand on those two factors of your nation?? For example people living in the rural areas of the US seem to stand quite differently than those in US cities, religion & race seem to influence those areas as well!? I know that cultures play a big role in how Canadians view their government?? Some what true in the US!

Is it somewhat likewise in Canada??

Thanks,& regards,
MD


Hi Dave, much as Colin has described there are differences to be noted between rural and urban citizens in Canada. Add to the mix the fact that the urban centres tend to be more culturally diverse than the rural eras. Most of the Canadian population lives in urban centres. We do see differing political views associated with whether one is living in a city or in the countryside. It would be a generalization to say that politically conservative views are more commonly held in the rural areas with more liberal views held in the urban centres but it seems to be so, to me anyway.

Perhaps a factor that is influential when it comes to emotional attachment and economic interests is Canadian regionalism. I don't just mean east vs west which is often a common source of conflict between Canadians. Geography has divided this massive land mass into regions. The rocky Canadian shield was a natural barrier to expansion to the west and so development occurred in stages and was influenced by different immigrants from different places. The Rockies too were a barrier that encouraged a different type of settlement. I would suggest that the more natural orientation regionally is more north to south than it is east to west.

Impose the Rockies on the desire to expand and we naturally have somewhat different economies and political views that developed dependent upon whether one was east or west of the Rockies. As an example then, culturally I see British Columbia as quite different from the prairie provinces. As well the international border between the US and Canada interferes with a natural association between Canadians in BC and Americans in Washington and points farther south.

The north to south orientation for many Canadians seems obvious to me though it is just something that I sense without a great deal of reading on the subject.

I think that it is the same for all the geographic regions across the country. Those regions are the Atlantic Region (NFLD, PEI, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick), the Central Region (Ontario and Quebec),
the Prairies (Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta), the West Coast (BC), the North country (Nunavut, Northwest and Yukon Territories).

They all developed at different times in our history and all show some sort of regional identity. Some of that identity is shared with the adjoining US territory to the south.

Perhaps the most noticeable example of the influence of regionalism is in Québec which is isolated not only by geography but by the political will to celebrate and defend its obvious cultural differences with the rest of the country.

Another example is Newfoundland which is a large island. It was settled by fishermen from many parts of the world including the British isles. Isolated and left to develop without a lot of external influence in its earliest days, the island developed a culture and dialect that is unique in North America.

Certainly I am no expert on the influence of regionalism on our development and our reaction to different needs and events in the country but it does seem clear to me that regionalism is a factor to be considered when trying to govern such a big country.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2023 12:30:41 PM
This regional and urban cultural divide is terribly intensified over here in Britain, with close to seventy million people living in a relatively small area.

The preponderance of London in terms of wealth and political influence is profoundly resented. I’m convinced that this was a factor in Brexit.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/13/2023 2:53:16 AM
1862 : Battle of Fredericksburg.

A shocker.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/13/2023 8:17:10 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Battle of Fredericksburg...

On December 13, 1862, Confederate General Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia repulses a series of attacks by General Ambrose Burnside’s Army of the Potomac at Fredericksburg, Virginia. The defeat was one of the most decisive loses for the Union army, and it dealt a serious blow to Northern morale in the winter of 1862-63.

Burnside assumed command of the Army of the Potomac in November 1862 after George McClellan failed to pursue Lee into Virginia following the Battle of Antietam in Maryland on September 17. Burnside immediately crafted a plan to move against the Confederate capital at Richmond, Virginia. This called for a rapid march by the Federals from their positions in northern Virginia to Fredericksburg on the Rappahannock River. Burnside planned to cross the river at that point and then continue south.

The campaign began promisingly for the Union. The army moved quickly down the Rappahannock, but then stalled across the river from Fredericksburg. Due to poor execution of orders, a pontoon bridge was not in place for several days. The delay allowed Lee to move his troops into place along Marye’s Heights above Fredericksburg. The Confederates were secure in a sunken road protected by a stone wall, looking down on the open slopes that stretched from the edge of Fredericksburg. So strong was the Confederate position that one Rebel officer claimed “a chicken could not live on that field when we open on it.”

Burnside decided to attack anyway. On December 13, he hurled 14 attacks against the Confederate lines. Although the Union artillery was effective against the Rebels, the 600-yard field was a killing ground for the attacking Yankees. No Union soldiers reached the wall at the top of Marye’s Heights, and few even came within50 yards of it. “It is well that war is so horrible, or else we should grow too fond of it,” Lee observed to General James Longstreet as they watched the carnage. A bitterly cold night froze many of the Union dead and wounded.

Burnside considered continuing the attack on December 14, but his subordinates urged him to stop. On December 15, a truce was called for the Union to collect their dead and wounded soldiers. Burnside retreated northward under the cover of darkness and rain. The one-sided nature of the battle was reflected in the casualty figures. The Yankees suffered around 12,650 killed and wounded, while Lee lost only about 4,200 men. General Joseph Hooker replaced Burnside as commander of the Army of the Potomac in January 1863.


Guys,

This has to be one of the most stupid attacks of the whole Civil War! Imagine giving Robert E. Lee days to prepare a battlefield, & then attacking the strongest fortified high ground! Not once but 14 times!? Lincoln could not remove Burnside fast enough!! I guess after Picket's charge at Gettysburg the victorious Union Army chanted Fredericksburg! Fredericksburg! Is this true?? Also the Civil war Trust is live doing a special presentations on the anniversary, live from the battlefield! Perhaps some one could put the website up as a "read more"? Or you can Google it on youtube!??

Pure madness!
What say you??
MD


Not such a one sided affair when the less well known part of the fighting is considered.

There was a major battle on the confederate right, too, in which the yankees made progress and gave the rebels a rough time.

People think of the slaughter of the bluecoats at Marye’s Heights, and with good reason , with a six or seven fold disparity of bloodshed in favour of the South. On the other wing of the federal attack, it was close to parity.

Burnside was badly served by the administration in Washington, and was pressured into making a desperate attack after having been deprived of the pontoon material he’d been requesting.

Significantly, Burnside retained the affection and respect of his soldiers.

A discordant note I’m striking here, but I think he’s worthy of some sympathy.

Regards, Phil


Phil,

Here is what we said last year about the battle of Fredericksburg! I'm sure your probably have some more insight to add??

Regards, MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/13/2023 4:45:18 PM
Quote:
Quote:


Hi George,

Would you say that like the US, that politically, & also somewhat culturally that geography plays a big part where your countrymen stand on those two factors of your nation?? For example people living in the rural areas of the US seem to stand quite differently than those in US cities, religion & race seem to influence those areas as well!? I know that cultures play a big role in how Canadians view their government?? Some what true in the US!

Is it somewhat likewise in Canada??

Thanks,& regards,
MD


Hi Dave, much as Colin has described there are differences to be noted between rural and urban citizens in Canada. Add to the mix the fact that the urban centres tend to be more culturally diverse than the rural eras. Most of the Canadian population lives in urban centres. We do see differing political views associated with whether one is living in a city or in the countryside. It would be a generalization to say that politically conservative views are more commonly held in the rural areas with more liberal views held in the urban centres but it seems to be so, to me anyway.

Cheers,

George




Hi George,

It certainly seems to hold true in the US, as well !? & as Colin & Phil said its true in the UK too!! Country citizens In general, tend to be conservatives!?

MD

BTW on another matter, 2003 Saddam Hussein was captured on this day in a little hole in the desert!? I believe the correct term is, A spider hole! Right OP!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/13/2023 7:29:24 PM
Quote:


Hi George,

It certainly seems to hold true in the US, as well !? & as Colin & Phil said its true in the UK too!! Country citizens In general, tend to be conservatives!?

MD

BTW on another matter, 2003 Saddam Hussein was captured on this day in a little hole in the desert!? I believe the correct term is, A spider hole! Right OP!!

Every country has a spectrum of political philosophies, and that spectrum can shift from one part to another. The Deep South in the US vs. California (parts thereof) vs. New York and the Northeast.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2023 8:27:14 AM
Checking out 12-14 in history,

1503 Astrologer Nostradamus was born! He also was a Seer! What the hell is a Seer? Anyone??

1568 the Casket letters were found to be damaging to Mary Queen of Scots! Why did Elizabeth I have it in for Mary?? Cat fight! Cat fight!?? What say you??

1799 George Washington the father of the US dies at age 67! What made him rise to be such a great man?? Anyone??

1911 Ronald Amundsen is the 1st man at the South Pole, why did he succeed where Scott tragically failed?? What say you?? Also believe Kai said one of his relatives from back then was with Amundsen!? Not sure about that??

1936 George VI becomes King of England taking over for his scandalous brother Edward VIII, remember the movie "the Kings Speech" tells this story! What say you on why George VI was just what England needed at this time in history, & his brother, left wanting?? What's the story?

1960 the US, Canada, & much of Europe sign an economic treaty! How did this help their economies?? Comments anyone?

Some good topics!?
Regards,
MD

Anything new? Anyone??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2023 9:52:16 PM
Nostradamus was a conman.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2023 7:07:15 AM
Events for December 15-16 in history, A few of them anyway!? Comments?

12-15,

37 ce, Nero was born, the Emporer of Rome, who burned the city down! Was he Rome's worst ruler? What say you??

1791 the Bill of rights of the US Constitution were adopted! To day they are under attack? Should they remain as the law of the land? Or are some outdated?? Comments anyone??

1890 Sitting Bull, Souix cheif, is killed after seeking asylum in Canada! What happened??

2011 the Iraqi War ends! Was it a just war? Did the US, & Allies win?? Comments??

12-16,

1631 the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in Italy kills 3,000+ people! How come they couldn't escape? Seems like a lot, when magma movement isn't that fast, is it?? Anyone?

1653 Oliver Cromwell takes over in England! What's his place in English History?? Why was there a rebellion (English Civil War) anyway? What say you?

1773 the Boston Tea Party happens! Did the Indian disguise fool the Brits.? What's up with the British Iove of tea? Having a tea time every day? Did this event piss off the king? Comments?

1838 3,000 Zulu were killed in S.Africa battle, by the Voortrekkers! Who were they? & What was this Blood River battle? Why was it so one sided? & it's effect on the Zulu wars!? Anyone??

1944 the Battle of the Bulge begins! How did the US escape, & win this overwhelming at favorable odds for the Germans, battle? Something about Gen. Patton?? What say you??

Other new or old topics, sites, or posts!?

Lots to discuss!?
Regards,
MD

BTW OP, Nostradamis sure could of used a trip to the barber!? ☺
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2023 7:51:27 AM
The ash and the pyroclastic flow (Superheated steam, basically) moved at high speeds. The surprising thing is that more people didn't die on the spot. We don't know how many made it "safety" after being severely burned and/or inhaling volcanic glass and/or being burned by the flow. "Pyroclastic density currents are ground-hugging flows of hot volcanic gases and particles (volcanic ash, pumice, crystals, and small rock fragments) that are propelled by gravity and move extremely rapidly, travelling at speeds more than 200 miles per hour (320 km per hour). Apr 18, 2023" US National Park Service https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/pyroclastic-flows-and-ignimbrites-and-pyroclastic-surges.htm#:~:text=Pyroclastic%20density%20currents%20are%20ground,(320%20km%20per%20hour).
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2023 8:11:20 AM
Quote:
The ash and the pyroclastic flow (Superheated steam, basically) moved at high speeds. The surprising thing is that more people didn't die on the spot. We don't know how many made it "safety" after being severely burned and/or inhaling volcanic glass and/or being burned by the flow. "Pyroclastic density currents are ground-hugging flows of hot volcanic gases and particles (volcanic ash, pumice, crystals, and small rock fragments) that are propelled by gravity and move extremely rapidly, travelling at speeds more than 200 miles per hour (320 km per hour). Apr 18, 2023" US National Park Service [Read More].



Thanks OP,

In this case making your site an easy "read more" will help it was a lot of typing to get to the fascinating volcanic website!? Hey MHO, check it out!! It's worth it!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2023 9:17:53 AM
If you double click on the link it will take you to the site. No extra work needed.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2023 10:08:51 AM
Quote:
1960 the US, Canada, & much of Europe sign an economic treaty! How did this help their economies?? Comments anyone?


MD, I am a little confused. In May of 1960, four European countries established the European Free Trade Association. This is not the same thing as the European Union. The EFTA was created as an alternative to the European Economic Community, the association that preceded the EU.

Is this the treaty to which you have referred? I can't find any arrangement between the US, Canada and the EU in that time period.

The US and Canada did form the Auto Pact but that was in 1965 and it was a game changer for the automobile manufacturing industry in North America.

Now Canada did agree to a relationship with the EEC in 1976. It was called the Framework Agreement on Economic Co-operation. That was the first trade agreement that the EEC had arranged with an industrialized third party. Canada does have two EU countries that are geographically very close. Greenland is close to Canada's Ellesmere Island and it is Danish territory. St. Pierre et Miquelon are French islands only 30 km from Newfoundland.

Canada also has negotiated and signed a trade agreement with the European Union that removes 98% of tariffs between Canada and EU countries. It is called the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA). But that was 2016.

As far as I know, the US has no such trade agreement with the EU.

So what happened in 1960?

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2023 12:25:52 PM
Quote:
1773 the Boston Tea Party happens! Did the Indian disguise fool the Brits.? What's up with the British Iove of tea? Having a tea time every day? Did this event piss off the king? Comments?


There were actually three ships in Boston Harbour. The Beaver was owned by a Quaker family living in Nantucket. The Dartmouth was owned by the same family. The Eleanor was owned by a wealthy Boston merchant. His name was John Rowe and he was angry with the British too.

All three carried chests of tea from Asia that was owned by a business, The British East India Company. These vessels were not RN vessels. They were American ships owned by Americans.

So the mob destroyed private property and may have been abetted by the Boston merchant who owned the Eleanor. And so the owner of Eleanor may have been complicit in the destruction of property that his client was paying him to transport.

In total, 342 chests of tea were thrown into the harbour.

Cheers,

George

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