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George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/17/2022 9:02:36 PM
Quote:
News flash if things weren't going bad enough for Mitch Mariner of the Toronto maple leafs, he had his car high jacked outside a theater at gun point by 3 armed men! Anyone have the details?? I guess Mitch himself is ok! But they haven't caught the theifs yet?? What's the latest??


Police just busted a car jacking ring but it seems that there are other groups. Marner was not hurt. The three thieves were armed with a knife and guns. He was just leaving a movie theatre with a woman and he did not fight them. Just handed over the keys.

The cars that these guys highjack are quickly put in shipping containers and are sent overseas. CBC just aired an exposé on the subject. They went to Nigeria and in a used car lot they found cars that had been recently stolen in Ontario. The car lot owner wasn't scared at all. Several of the stolen cars still had their Ontario plates on the vehicle.

These guys are becoming more bold and brazen. The number of guns appearing on the street in the hands of criminals is alarming.

Cheers,

George


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/18/2022 1:33:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Topics, topics topics!!!??

In 1943 on May 13th, 250,00O German & Italian troops surender! What were the major factors in the win?? .Comments anyone?? As the Allies win in N. Africa!

Just a few events from.the BBC site for 5-14, comments welcome? Anyone?? I believe most, we haven't commented on yet? Any one??

1796 British Doctor Edward Jenner develops a vaccination to combat smallpox using believe this!? Puss from Cowpox !gross you say??

1948 British mandate for Palestine! The state of Israel is proclaimed by the Jews! What say you on the British helping create Isreal?? Anyone?? Thanks for the reply on this Brian!

1955 the Soviets & Eastern Europe create the Warsaw Pact! Does it exist at all today?? Was it really a alliance forced by the Soviets? Does it effect the Russian invasion of the Ukraine at all?? What say you? Anyone??

Any other new history? Anyone??
MD

Checking 5-16 in history, here are some events? Comments, anyone?

1770 Marie Antoinette married King Louis XVI how did this become such a messy union for the common Frenchmen? Comments?

1801 William Seward who purchased Alaska was born, did he over step his bounds as Lincoln's Secretary! of State? Thanks for your reply George!

1920 Joan of Arc is canonized by the Pope, why was she burned at the stake? She was after all a military commander who deserved better? Comments?

1943 the Warsaw Ghetto uprising is put down! You have to admire the courage of these condemned souls!?
Any good articles or websites on it?? Anyone?

Regards
MD

Also in 1975 the 1st women to climb Mt. Everest, A Japanese lady, why do so many make this attempt? Are they brave or crazy?? Many end fatal?? Comments anyone?

BTW Brian your right about George Wallace, at times I wonder if much has changed today?

Also talk about equality in sports? I believe most of the opening round NHL series went the full seven games! Great for the hockey fans! What say you??



George

Hopefully the Carjacking ring bit off more than they couldchew, stealing Mitch Mariners car!?

Checking 5-18 in history here is a few events!.comments? Anyone??

1980 the eruption of Mt. St Helens! I wonder if it effected the Vancouver, Victoria area?? Anyone??

1860 Abe Lincoln becomes the Republican Candidate for President! Some say the Republicans back then are like the Democrats of today?? Did the party flip???

1974 India has the Atomic Bomb! Does Pakistan also have it?? Who will keep the peace?? Comments?

1896 the Supreme Court releases a Separate but equal take on Civil Rights!? Can the SC dictate laws even if they represent a minority of the populace!? & Should they have lifetime terms??

Comments anyone??
MD


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/18/2022 1:58:12 PM
https://www.mshslc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/3_ashfall_intro1.jpg
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/18/2022 2:15:27 PM
OP, Here is your pic.



And another.



Gary
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/18/2022 4:10:39 PM
The maps do not show that ash also fell north of the border in BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan.

The winds were blowing in the right direction to bring ash over SE British Columbia and reducing the ceiling and visibility for two days.

There were also "dustings" of Mt. St. Helen's ash as far north as Yellowknife, NWT. I suppose that that should be expected. The blast sent 500 million tonnes into the air at high speed and the winds did the rest.

Quote:
The total volume of the ash before its compaction by rainfall was about 0.3 cubic mile (1.3 cubic kilometres), equivalent to an area the size of a football field piled about 150 miles (240 kilometres) high with fluffy ash.
. source: USGS

Not sure why the maps stop at the border.

Ash like this can affect the agricultural industry because it affects the acidity of the soil. And there are health concerns as the ash can lead to respiratory problems or further problems for those already suffering from respiratory illnesses.

The US based Geophysical Union has actually studied the fall in Canada as it wanted to determine the far reaching affects of the Mount St. Helen's eruption.

Ignoring the terrible damage done in the kill zone, Mount St. Helen's served as an excellent classroom for all of the countries concerned with the possibility of similar eruptions in their countries.

This is a farm in Washington State located about 300 km (180 miles) from the volcano.



I wonder what his crop yield was that year and in the following years.

Cheers,

George



OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/18/2022 4:42:43 PM
I figured somebody would deal with it. Cheers.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/18/2022 8:03:37 PM
George, don’t play the innocent!

I use weather maps daily which offer an outline of the US but not one bit of data. This is a USGS map; it would probably have no devices under its control to give readings outside the (in this case) lower 48. In fact, I would bet it had trouble getting data on the Canadian impact, because we tend to read such events so differently. But even if the data were readily transferable, there would be no need to display it on a map meant for US users.

IIRC, my kids and I were visiting my parents some 65 miles NW of Vancouver. By some freak of acoustics, we heard the eruption, but of course the weather patterns (typical for that time of year) blew the ash ENE so we did not suffer from it. My biggest concern at the time was that my ex-wife of 2 years (at the time) was camping with her new man in the Yakima area. It took some anxious hours before we could detemine they were safe, though covered with ash.

You raise the question of crop yield, particularly because of the ash. I may be wrong, but it’s possible that it helped the grape growers. My son-in-law’s winery gets large portions of its grapes from the Yakima Valley and lower Columbia regions, and they thrive in such soil. At the time, of course, other issues were of more concern..

Cheers.
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/19/2022 7:24:06 PM


Checking 5-18 in history here is a few events!.comments? Anyone??

1980 the eruption of Mt. St Helens! I wonder if it effected the Vancouver, Victoria area?? Thanks George for the reply, & map on this, of course ash from the volcano doesn't stop at the borders!?

1860 Abe Lincoln becomes the Republican Candidate for President! Some say the Republicans back then are like the Democrats of today?? Did the party flip???

1974 India has the Atomic Bomb! Does Pakistan also have it?? Who will keep the peace?? Comments?

1896 the Supreme Court releases a Separate but equal take on Civil Rights!? Can the SC dictate laws even if they represent a minority of the populace!? & Should they have lifetime terms?

Here are some topics from 5-20, feel free to comment on any of them!??

1536 Ann Boleyn, wife of Henry VIII, is beheaded for Adultry! Why wasn't King Henry? He committed Adultery even more!? Is this a double standard? Anyone?

1845 Sir John Franklin's expedition to find the NW Passage leaves England, never to be seen again! That is until recent searches by Canadians turned up their 2 ships!? What's the latest from Parks Canada on this?? Anyone?

1884 the Ringling Brothers Circus is started, why in modern times to people think animals are abused! & therefore boycott the Circus?? Is it warranted??

Carry on all!
MD

1962 TE Lawrence, of Arabia fame is killed in a moter cycle accident! How important was he to British- Arab Middle-eastern history?? What say you??

Comments anyone??
MD

BTW George did Mitch Mariner ever get his car back??

Bonus question, Is the world going to hell in a hand-basket???


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/19/2022 8:09:34 PM
On 19 May 1536 Anne Boleyn was executed for adultery, incest and conspiracy against the King. In effect, given the laws of the time, she was guilty of treason. To betray the King’s bed was to betray the King: that was treason.

IMHO, a lot of rot has been written about Anne Boleyn, helped by that bit of fiction called something like The Other Boleyn Girl. In my understanding, she was a strong, well-educated, rather too radically religious young woman who caught Henry’s eye as his marriage to Catherine reached a time when further children might not be conceived. Catherine had given Henry a daughter, Mary, but at the time no woman could inherit England’s crown. Anne, somewhat younger, might offer better chance of a male heir.

Anne was, IIUC, groomed to better the prestige of both her father, first Earl of Wiltshire, and her mother’s family, the much more ambitious Howards. She was raised largely on the Continent, and schooled largely at the French Court as Lady-in-waiting to Queen Claude, a more sophisticated court environment than existed in Henry’s early time on the throne.

In 1517, the year Luther nailed his 95 theses to a church door, Anne would have been between 10 and 16 (her birthdate is still not determined, IIUC), and she was drawn towards not just Lutheranism but towards more radical thinking which arose in Luther’s aftermath. To some extent, her protestant biases made her a good choice for Henry, who was prepared to replace traditional Catholic faith with a parallel faith replacing the Italian Pope with the English monarch as head of faith. But to another extent, it created a difference between Anne and Henry which became an issue at court. She was often promoting clerics with views anathema to Henry’s newly created Church of England.

Bottom line, of course, is that Henry felt betrayed by Anne, and there is some indication she was attempting to conceive of a male child by whatever means. Yes, Henry had become enamoured of Jane Seymour at this time. Kings were allowed infatuations. But the point remains that Anne’s relation with Henry was poisoned more by the members of the court than by any strong proof of misconduct on her part.

Unless I’m wrong, Anne was executed not by an axe-wielding executioner but by a swordsman executioner from France. This was, however strange it sounds, Henry’s final gift to Anne: a more precise and refined execution.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/20/2022 8:28:56 AM
Yeah Brian,

How kind of Henry to use a sword! I'm sure Ann was grateful!??Quote:


Again most of these topics haven't been commented on!? Anyone??

Checking 5-18 in history here is a few events!.comments? Anyone??

1980 the eruption of Mt. St Helens! I wonder if it effected the Vancouver, Victoria area?? Thanks George for the reply, & map on this, of course ash from the volcano doesn't stop at the borders!?

1860 Abe Lincoln becomes the Republican Candidate for President! Some say the Republicans back then are like the Democrats of today?? Did the party flip???

1974 India has the Atomic Bomb! Does Pakistan also have it?? Who will keep the peace?? Comments?

1896 the Supreme Court releases a Separate but equal take on Civil Rights!? Can the SC dictate laws even if they represent a minority of the populace!? & Should they have lifetime terms?

Here are some topics from 5-20, feel free to comment on any of them!??

1536 Ann Boleyn, wife of Henry VIII, is beheaded for Adultry! Why wasn't King Henry? He committed Adultery even more!? Is this a double standard? Anyone? BTW Brain, thanks for your studious response!!!

1845 Sir John Franklin's expedition to find the NW Passage leaves England, never to be seen again! That is until recent searches by Canadians turned up their 2 ships!? What's the latest from Parks Canada on this?? Anyone?

1884 the Ringling Brothers Circus is started, why in modern times to people think animals are abused! & therefore boycott the Circus?? Is it warranted??

Carry on all!
MD

1962 TE Lawrence, of Arabia fame is killed in a moter cycle accident! How important was he to British- Arab Middle-eastern history?? What say you??

Comments anyone??
MD

BTW George did Mitch Mariner ever get his car back??

Bonus question, Is the world going to hell in a hand-basket???



----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/20/2022 11:17:49 AM
Quote:
1845 Sir John Franklin's expedition to find the NW Passage leaves England, never to be seen again! That is until recent searches by Canadians turned up their 2 ships!? What's the latest from Parks Canada on this?? Anyone?


Two years lost to Covid so no exploration. There is some urgency at the Erebus site. That ship is in very shallow water and takes more of a beating from the sea than does HMS Terror.

Parks Canada has already returned to the sites. This happened in April. The Underwater Archeology Team (UAT) explored with remotely operated vehicles. PC will return to the sites later in the summer.

Cheers,

George


RE: Mitch Marner. I believe that his Range Rover is gone. Police do find these vehicles in shipping containers at the ports but they don't get them all.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/20/2022 7:16:58 PM
Quote:
Yeah Brian,

How kind of Henry to use a sword! I'm sure Ann was grateful!??

Funny, isn’t it, that we wet ourselves over adultery these days (at least in some nations), but seem to have no similar response concerning treason. Treason – and Anne’s offence was treason – was a crime against king, state (typically the same thing) and God. Think about that for a second. My guess is that the only greater crime might be witchcraft, which was seen as a willful choice of Satanism.

The punishments (or styles of execution) for traitors was normally much more vicious than Anne faced. Most, typically, ended with bits of the body spread about the kingdom on display. It’s easy to say “hanged, drawn and quartered”, but take a read at a site of your choice. Not to be buried whole raised issues of resurrection, amongst other things. Anne, like Henry, was a God-fearing Christian. So, I assume, were the five men executed for their part in her treason. Here is one largely fictionalized account of their deaths:
[Read More]
I’m drawn to Anne’s response to Mark Smeaton’s final confession: “Mark Smeaton was the final man to be executed. How awful it must have been to stand by as the four men died such violent deaths in front of him, knowing that he himself had only minutes to live. He was lucky, however. As a man of lower class he could have ended his life in a much more brutal way by being hanged, drawn and quartered. The axe was preferable. He did not take the opportunity to retract his confession on the scaffold and when Anne Boleyn heard of this she said, “Did he not exonerate me… before he died, of the public infamy he laid on me? Alas! I fear his soul will suffer for it.”

Because they were commoners, Sir Henry Norris, Mark Smeaton, Sir William Brereton and Sir Francis Weston were buried in the churchyard of the Chapel of St Peter ad Vincula. George Boleyn’s head and body were taken inside the Chapel, however, and interred in the chancel area before the high altar. Just two days later, his sister’s head and body would be joining him.”

Sorry, MD, but Henry’s gift of death by the sword was a kindness. It offered Anne a more certain means of dying quickly, and it was a last gesture to her status before marriage. In Henry’s mind, it may even have been a gesture to God saying her death was necessary but regrettable. Anne’s eyes were on a different world, as her comments about Smeaton’s soul make clear. Death by sword would have given her honour in death and recognition in the hereafter.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2022 6:26:14 PM
Checking May 21, in history a few events are : see below!

1856 Bleeding Kansas is going on what was it about? Anyone?

1542 Hernando de Soto discovered of the Mississippi River dies! What happened? Comments?

1927 Charles Lindbergh completes the 1st trans Atlantic crossing! How did it go?

1881 Clara Barton founds the Red Cross how many countries have it or simular now??

1932 Amilia Earhart is the 1st women to cross the Atlantic! What tragedy later befell her??

1960 Jeffery Damher a serial killer is caught, how did he despose of his victims? Anyone??

& 5-22, the following occurred!? Comments??

1849 President Abe Lincoln is granted a patent on a boat lifting device, the only President to do so! What other talents did he have?? Anyone?

1939 Hitler, & Mussolini sign a pact. Who finally broke it?? Comments?

1942 Mexico declared war on the Axis Powers!? Did they really contribute much to the WWII war effort?? What say you??

2011 one of the biggest tornados in history destroys Joplin, Missouri killing over 160 people! Do the prairie provinces of Canada get many tornados?? Has your region ever had Tornados??

Plenty to discuss above! Comments, or other new topics?? Anyone?

Regards,
MD

PS thanks Bri. for the follow up answers on my last post on Henry VIII, & Anne Bolyne's stormy relationship!??


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2022 7:02:56 PM
Quote:
2011 one of the biggest tornados in history destroys Joplin, Missouri killing over 160 people! Do the prairie provinces of Canada get many tornados?? Has your region ever had Tornados??


Germany is reporting that perhaps three tornados touched down today. I have no idea how powerful they were.

Canada experiences tornadoes in the prairies yes, but also in Ontario and Quebec and in the Maritimes, though less frequently.

It is pretty rare that we get F5's on the Fujita scale though.

Environment Canada confirms that Canada experiences about 80 tornados per year.

From this map we can see where the greatest number of tornados occur. Saskatchewan seems to be the province that receives the greatest number.




I did a little investigation and it seems that Europe receives about 300 tornados per year.

This map shows tornado activity from 2000 to 2012.

]

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2022 12:04:07 AM
MD, you note: Quote:
1927 Charles Lindbergh completes the 1st trans Atlantic crossing! How did it go?

Not quite accurate, of course. His was the first solo non-stop Atlantic crossing. Five years later, Amelia Earhart would make the same crossing, marking I believe the first female solo crossing.

I have not one problem with noting and praising Lindy’s flight, and fully support the acclaim he received. His was a gutsy flight and a great accomplishment.

But I’ve been puzzled to note (on two different occasions today, but perhaps from the same source) articles on Alcock and Brown’s 1919 non-stop flight of (I believe) June 1919 in a Vickers “Vimy” WW1-era bomber.

[Read More]

Alcock was pilot; Brown navigator. They flew from Newfoundland bound for England, but landed – or attempted to land – when they reached Ireland. What they thought was a field suitable for landing turned out to be a peat bog. Oops!

Does anybody have any idea why Alcock and Brown would receive this kind of attention on Lindy’s anniversary? It almost seems insulting!

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2022 1:18:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
2011 one of the biggest tornados in history destroys Joplin, Missouri killing over 160 people! Do the prairie provinces of Canada get many tornados?? Has your region ever had Tornados??


Germany is reporting that perhaps three tornados touched down today. I have no idea how powerful they were.

Canada experiences tornadoes in the prairies yes, but also in Ontario and Quebec and in the Maritimes, though less frequently.

It is pretty rare that we get F5's on the Fujita scale though.

Environment Canada confirms that Canada experiences about 80 tornados per year.

From this map we can see where the greatest number of tornados occur. Saskatchewan seems to be the province that receives the greatest number.




I did a little investigation and it seems that Europe receives about 300 tornados per year.

This map shows tornado activity from 2000 to 2012.

]

Cheers,

George




Wow George,

I heard a huge Hurricane type weather with 135 KM an hour winds hit Ontario around Ottawa! Large hail, & damaging wind,& rain, with thinderstorms! Here we were talking about it & it hit Saturday afternoon! Over 350,000 people without power!?

Hope all is well with you?.Your not that far from the area the storm hit!?

How was it for you??
Stay safe!
MD

BTW, Brian, thanks for the website on Alcock, & Brown! I didn't know about those guys!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2022 2:59:23 PM
Quote:
Wow George,

I heard a huge Hurricane type weather with 135 KM an hour winds hit Ontario around Ottawa! Large hail, & damaging wind,& rain, with thinderstorms! Here we were talking about it & it hit Saturday afternoon! Over 350,000 people without power!?

Hope all is well with you?.Your not that far from the area the storm hit!?


Much of southern Ontario was hit. On my street, a neighbour saw a huge Maple tree fall into his house. The chain saws were roaring this morning.

This was a dangerous storm. Cell phones all received a storm warning from Environment Canada so we all should have been inside.

But even with precautions that couldn't help some people who were inside a trailer when a tree hit it and crushed it.

This was a bad storm even without tornados. Six people lost their lives in multiple places in the province. One was in that trailer.

And one poor 70 year old woman was trying to get home when a tree fell on her. This was in a residential suburban area near Toronto. She wasn't discovered until the storm abated and it was too late for her.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2022 3:08:29 PM
Quote:
BTW, Brian, thanks for the website on Alcock, & Brown! I didn't know about those guys!?


All of these pioneers in aviation deserve praise. That includes Lindberg of course but I do not understand why he gets so much attention while the others have faded into obscurity. Perhaps it is because his is an American story and the US seems to focus mostly or perhaps only on the accomplishments of their own.

Alcock and Brown flew a shorter distance but in an open cockpit plane that was designed to be a bomber. Alcock was the pilot and Brown was his navigator. Brown deserves praise because he navigated only with a compass, I believe.

But their plane was end of WW1 technology. By the time that Lindberg flew there had been many technological advances and he flew in a superior aircraft to the one the Alcock and Brown flew. Still, he flew 33 hours which is an insane amount of time to be at the controls of anything let alone an aircraft.

So while we should praise Lindberg (as a pilot only), we should not forget that there were those, like Alcock and Brown who paved the way.

Cheers,

George

GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2022 5:44:21 PM
Quote:
Does anybody have any idea why Alcock and Brown would receive this kind of attention on Lindy’s anniversary? It almost seems insulting!


Brian,

I read that article in the Washington Post before you posted about it as I have a subscription to the Post. I thought it was highly appropriate to publish it on the anniversary of Charles Lindbergh's solo flight from New York to Paris. Lindbergh's flight should be remembered and not merely because he is from the United States and an estimated 100 thousand people greeted him at Le Bourget Airport in Paris. The flight by Alcock and Brown should also be remembered as the first flight across the Atlantic and the poor quality of aircraft at that time.

Unfortunately history is not a subject most people care enough about to bother to read history books. I have no doubt that if someone when around and randomly asked people in the US who Charles Lindbergh was many if not most would have no idea. Some would probably suggest he invented a cheese. I remember that one year during the British celebrations of Waterloo a British newspaper published a survey that showed almost 50% of the respondents thought of Waterloo as a song from the Swedish music group ABBA.

The author of the article apparently also has written for Aviation History Magazine so I'm not surprised he wrote this article. It was not an attempt to lessen the significance of Lindbergh's flight. The two flights were significantly different that both deserve their place in history.

This article shows the reaction to the historic flight of Alcock and Brown in The New York Times as well as an article on the flight.

[Read More]

Here is a picture of the aircraft in a museum.

[Read More]

Gary
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2022 10:11:58 PM
Gary, great comment and some good thoughts. IIUC, your comments raise issues about what history means and how history works.

IIRC, a number of trans-Atlantic flights had been attempted prior to Alcock and Brown. Some were successful, including flight by a (I believe) trio of US naval aircraft. They were not trying to make a non-stop flight, and stopped for fuel and maintenance while flying the southern route. Some, I believe, were unsuccessful.

As a bottom line, somebody had to make the first crossing. Why it was important that is should be a non-stop flight is beyond me. Why the number of crewmen is important stumps me. Why the gender of a pilot is a determinant is beyond me. Folks were driven to fly between continents, just as folks were driven to fly the English Channel, or whatever.

Your link to the NYT article is tremendous. It gives a new meaning to the concept of “All the news that’s fit to print”! And the pic of the Vimy Mk IV bomber is, at least for me, rather humbling. Even with hindsight (and I have some training in industrial design), it is hard to believe that the Vimy could stay together long enough to cross the Atlantic, particularly given the massive requirements for extra fuel.

Lindy’s achievement was magnificent. But he was just one of a number of aviation pioneers (fliers and designers and manufacturers and artisans) who lifted flight into the future. Thanks for pointing that out.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2022 8:14:03 AM
Indeed, Lindberg's achievement is notable and wonderful. The question for me is why his success or the knowledge of his success has had greater notoriety and staying power than the many other successes by many others. Certainly I can recall Lindberg's feat and Alcock and Brown's but there are many others and I would have to read a history of flight to learn of them.

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2022 4:40:44 PM
Quote:
Checking May 21, in history a few events are : see below!

1856 Bleeding Kansas is going on what was it about? Anyone?

1542 Hernando de Soto discovered of the Mississippi River dies! What happened? Comments?

1927 Charles Lindbergh completes the 1st One man, trans Atlantic crossing! How did it go?

1881 Clara Barton founds the Red Cross how many countries have it or simular now??

1932 Amilia Earhart is the 1st women to cross the Atlantic! What tragedy later befell her??

1960 Jeffery Damher a serial killer is caught, how did he despose of his victims? Anyone??

& 5-22, the following occurred!? Comments??

1849 President Abe Lincoln is granted a patent on a boat lifting device, the only President to do so! What other talents did he have?? Anyone?

1939 Hitler, & Mussolini sign a pact. Who finally broke it?? Comments?

1942 Mexico declared war on the Axis Powers!? Did they really contribute much to the WWII war effort?? What say you??

2011 one of the biggest tornados in history destroys Joplin, Missouri killing over 160 people! Do the prairie provinces of Canada get many tornados?? Has your region ever had Tornados??

Plenty to discuss above! Comments, or other new topics?? Anyone?

Regards,
MD



On 5-23. In history, feel free to comment on any new or old event!? Comments??

1618 the 30 years war begins, what's the scoop?? Who was involved? Did it even last 30 years? Comments, Anyone?

1915 Italy enters WWI on the side of the Allies! Why did they change sides in WWII? What say you??

1701 English, Pirate Captain Kidd killed in London! What led to his demise?? What say you??

1934 Bonnie, '& Clyde are shot down by the Police! Why did a good deal of law abiding citizens support them?? Comments anyone??

1951 Tibet is annexed by China! Is Tibet independent today?? How did this happen!? What do you think of the Dalai Lama??

Comments, & Regards,
MD


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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2022 8:29:28 PM
To be honest, I’m going way out on an eerie limb when offering the following from Robert Goralski’s World War II Almanac 1931-1945, p. 218. It is an entry for this day in 1942.

May 23 Russian forces were trapped in the Izyum salient west of the Donets River as the German counteroffensive halted the Red Army advance toward Kharkov.

Anybody else get an odd feeling from seeing those names pop up? I do!! Eighty years to the day!

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2022 8:40:24 PM
Quote:
1915 Italy enters WWI on the side of the Allies! Why did they change sides in WWII? What say you??


Italy actually switched sides in the First World War. They had been in an alliance (Triple Alliance) with Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire when the war started. We recall that A-H had declared war on Serbia which was the catalyst that set the whole continent ablaze. Austrian Arch Duke Ferdinand had been shot and killed in Sarajevo only one month before the declaration.

But Italy stayed neutral in 1914 and like many nations, it was watching the A-H Empire (it's ally) which was in decline. Italy and A-H had border disputes and Italy saw an opportunity to join the side that could win and thus stood to expand its territory. So Italy separated itself from the Triple Alliance and signed a treaty to join the Entente (GB and France). The Entente had agreed to support Italy's land acquisition goals should it join.

With the war won and the negotiations ongoing to conclude with the Treaty of Versailles, Italy as one of the Big Four, was involved in the initial negotiations on the treaty but determined that it was not being treated as an equal partner in the victory and left the negotiations. The campaigns in Italy had gone badly and the British and French had to send troops to bolster the Italian forces and so these two allies were not predisposed to give too much to Italy whom they felt had done little to win the war.

Whether this perceived snub had anything to do with Italy's decision to support Germany in the second war, I don't know.

Italy was a different place after WW1. Beggared by the war, there was internal strife and conflict between monarchists, socialists and communists. Mussolini came to power and established an authoritarian fascist regime in 1922 that lasted until his death. Hitler admire Mussolini greatly and so when Germany went to war, an alliance with Italy was an appropriate fit, I think. Still, Mussolini was not anxious to go to war and he delayed his decision.

I have read that Mussolini was alarmed by Hitler's aggressive stance and worried that Germany would become the dominant power in Europe. He waited until it appeared that Germany's expansion in Europe and control of France appeared to be assured and then decided to ally with Hitler by declaring war against Britain and France in June of 1940. Best to be on the winning side I suppose. That didn't work out too well for Mussolini or for Italy which became a battle ground for 23 months.

Cheers,

George



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/24/2022 9:06:46 AM
Hi George,

Nice synopsis of Italy with regards to whose side (sides??) they were on, in the WW's!? Not an Ally you could trust? And your right Mussolini was in the middle of it all?? Any other opinions on this??

Thanks,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/24/2022 9:31:26 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

Nice synopsis of Italy with regards to whose side (sides??) they were on, in the WW's!? Not an Ally you could trust? And your right Mussolini was in the middle of it all?? Any other opinions on this??

Thanks,
MD


MD, it always disturbs me that the leadership of a country may commit soldiers to fight and die for political purposes rather than for self defence. I suppose that the former happens more often than the latter. How many soldiers have died because their government has argued that a commitment to attack another nation is based solely on a need to ensure security?

I can't help but feel that there are young Russian soldiers who have died recently in Ukraine and have been told that they are somehow defending the motherland by killing Ukrainians and destroying their country.

As for Italy, we must remember that once they ridded themselves of Mussolini, King Victor Emmanuel asked his military advisor to contact the allies to enquire about joining the allied cause. And this they did, in 1943 with a declaration of war against Germany.

I really don't know much about the contribution of the Italian forces to the allied cause after the fall of Mussolini. If anyone has information on how the Italians did against Germany, please weigh in.

Cheers,

George

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/24/2022 8:28:51 PM
MD, don’t be too unkind to Italy in WW1, As a nation they were only 100 years old. Many of their traditional values were linked to Austria-Hungary. They remained neutral until they were driven to join the Allies.

George, I agree. I think our trust in our political leaders is often mistaken. This may not be of major issue for a minor player such as Canada, but for larger players on the world stage it is vital.

I believe the democratic leader of a nation is better at determining a commitment to war, just as I believe that once that commitment is made the Military is best trained to execute the political will. But I worry increasingly that elected leaders are being placed in increasingly complex situations for which they have no training. Sadly, the same may apply to the military.

Mussolini was a driving force for Italy from 1922. Doesn’t sound long, but it was over 20 years. A rejection of fascist values and of Mussolini’s values wouldn’t be overcome overnight (may I point the continued existence of Mr Trump); the rejection of Mussolini did not mark the rejection of fascism.

At any rate, even before the initial fall of Mussolini, the battle for Italy was between Allied and German troops.

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/25/2022 1:19:07 PM
5-24 in history, any new topics??

1819 Queen Victoria is born, was she the Commonwealth's greatest queen?? What say you?

1856 John Brown leads a raid in Kansas in which 4 slavers were murdered! IYHO was John Brown a savior or terrorist?? What say you??

1883 the Brooklyn Bridge is built, what is your countries greatest engineered bridge?? Anyone??

1938 1st coin operated parking meter in Oklahoma! Have you ever been unfairly ticketed on a parking violation? What recourse did you have? Anyone??

1994 4 men convicted of bombing the world trade center! Horrific events are getting worse as evidenced by recent mass shootings! Can anything be done??

2000 Isreal evacuated Southern Lebanon did this help peace in the Middle east?? Is this area still a powder keg?? Comments?

Troubled times, esculate! Sad!!?
MD

Any other 5-24 or 5-25 history?? Anyone?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/26/2022 7:04:17 PM
On this day in 1703, Samuel Pepys died, aged 70. He is one of my favourite historical figures.

Pepys is best known for his marvellous Diary, which spanned the years 1660-69 and which he had to abandon from fear of going blind. A Londoner, Pepys captures in his diary his bringing the news of the Great Fire (1665) to King Charles and James, Duke of York. In 1666, he remained in London (he was Clerk of the Navy Board, and England was at war with the Dutch) throughout the plague. By staying, he acted for many senior officials who had fled to the country, and he describes it in some detail.

His work at the Navy Board brought him into increasing contact with James, Duke of York, who was Admiral of the Fleet at the time. Pepys became a supporter of James, admiring his honour and his bravery. This brought Pepys before a number of tribunals as early as the time of the diary because James, though generally well liked, as was seen by many as a threat to the realm because he was a practicing Roman Catholic.

Final short para about Sam Pepys. His diary was not his only feat of note. He wrote some rather sophisticated music; he rose in power within the navy, holding the position of Secretary of the Navy for some time. He was a member of the Royal Society. Despite challenges to his conduct, he is often called the “Father of the (English) Civil Service” through his personal conduct and the standards he demanded of those who worked with him.

Interesting man. One with whom I’d love to share a pint.

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/26/2022 8:55:17 PM
On this day in 1940, an attempt to withdraw allied troops from the port of Dunkirk began. What began as a desperate attempt to save perhaps 30,000 of the BEF became an incredible withdrawal of some 340,000 British, French and other allied troops. Dunkirk, an abject defeat of the armed might of four nations, began to be touted as a success. WSC saw it for the defeat it was, but the propaganda machine found terms like “miracle at Dunkirk” or the increasing disgreeable “little boats of Britain” to mask the disaster of Allied command when Germany headed west.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/27/2022 9:37:15 AM
Quote:
5-24 in history, any new topics??

1819 Queen Victoria is born, was she the Commonwealth's greatest queen?? What say you?

1856 John Brown leads a raid in Kansas in which 4 slavers were murdered! IYHO was John Brown a savior or terrorist?? What say you??

1883 the Brooklyn Bridge is built, what is your countries greatest engineered bridge?? Anyone??

1938 1st coin operated parking meter in Oklahoma! Have you ever been unfairly ticketed on a parking violation? What recourse did you have? Anyone??

1994 4 men convicted of bombing the world trade center! Horrific events are getting worse as evidenced by recent mass shootings! Can anything be done??

2000 Isreal evacuated Southern Lebanon did this help peace in the Middle east?? Is this area still a powder keg?? Comments?

Troubled times in Texas, esculate! Sad commentary!!?

MD

Any other 5-24 or 5-25 history?? Anyone?


5-27 in history! The following, any new posts??

1660 the Treaty of Copenhagen brings Scandinavia closer together? Or does it??

1703 St Petersburg, in Russia is founded! What made it such a important city?? Comments??

1933 Walt Disney releases the children's story, Three Little Pigs! What's the problem going on with Disney World & the state government of Florida?? Anyone?

1941 the RN sinks the German Battleship Bismarck! Was the German emphasis on Battleships a mistake?? What say you??

2000 Canadian great hockey player, Maurice Rocket Richard who won 8 Stanley Cups with Montreal passes away! What made him so great in the NHL??

BTW, Thanks Brian,

Your right about the evacuation at Dunkirk! It wasn't planned! But developed on the run! WSC was also right you can't get a win out of a loss!? Anyone else have any comments on it? I will.say the recent movie on it was very good!

Hope we can get something done on gun laws in the US?? Do something!!?
It shouldn't be political, it's either right or wrong! Good or bad!??
Doing nothing is not a choice!!?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/27/2022 4:16:49 PM
Quote:
2000 Canadian great hockey player, Maurice Rocket Richard who won 8 Stanley Cups with Montreal passes away! What made him so great in the NHL??


There were some great scorers in that era. Richard came to the NHL during WW2 and played from 1942 until 1960.

They used to say that from the "blue line in" to the opposing goal, there was no one better. Players used to talk about his piercing black eyes as he drove to the net.

He played in a rougher era as well when they called fewer hooks and holds. Maurice Richard often had a body or two hanging onto him as he drove the net. He also played a shorter schedule than is played today. When he began, he played a 50 game schedule and when he finished in 1960, it was 70 games.

The Rocket was revered in Québec and is also known for a riot that ensued in Montréal when Richard was suspended for the remainder of the 1955 season and the playoffs by Pres. Clarence Campbell. Richard had a fiery temper and had attacked another player with his stick and slugged the linesman trying to break it up. What precipitated all of this was the fact that Richard had been whacked over the head by the other guy first and was bleeding profusely when he retaliated.

When President Campbell showed up at the Montreal Forum for the next game, he had stuff thrown at him and was slapped by a fan. He had to leave. Then someone set off a smoke bomb and Montreal had to forfeit the game to the Detroit Red Wings. Richard actually went on the radio and TV to ask the fans not to commit acts of vandalism or to engage in violence.

Ah, the good old days of original six hockey.

Anyway, the Rocket was a great hockey player and very exciting to watch. A great goal scorer, the trophy for the top scorer in the league is named after him.

Personally, I always like his younger brother better. Henri Richard was a smaller man and a complete hockey player. He was great defensively, a good scorer and a brilliant passer. And he was called the "Pocket Rocket".

The brothers played together for a time. "The Rocket to the Pocket Rocket and back to the Rocket". When he scored his 500th goal in 1957, it was considered impossible and when it happened, it was predicted that no-one would reach that number again. After all, no-one had reached 400 goals before the Rocket.

He was the first NHL player to score 50 goals in a season and remarkably, the season was only 50 games long.

[Read More]

Maurice died at the age of 78 and thousands lined the streets of Montréal to pay their respects. For Quebeckers, the man was hockey royalty.

Cheers,

George




Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/27/2022 8:59:02 PM
MD, to your: Quote:
1941 the RN sinks the German Battleship Bismarck! Was the German emphasis on Battleships a mistake?? What say you??

Hey MD, just take a look at RN and other assets tied up in the hunt-down of Bismarck! IMHO, Bismarck was a fine, well-armed and powerful war machine. With Tirpitz, it was one very few battleships Germany built. But under treaty regulations, Germany’s naval assets were controlled more by convention than by Nazi requirements. Their focus was on building ships within various Naval Treaty agreements, but making sure the ships could punch far above their weight.

Keep in mind too that Hitler did not have a good relationship with the German Navy. To him, they were the service which sold the soul of Germany in 1918.

At any rate, I would argue that while Germany built ships which stretched the various demands under various treaty protocols, they were better placed (in 1940) to support their U-boat program.

Cheers.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/27/2022 11:17:26 PM
Just one other item worth noting for 27 May. On that date in 1905, the Japanese Navy recorded a defeat over the Russian fleet in the Battle of Tsushima Strait This, is a mere 51 years after Commodore Perry “opened” Japan, in effect dragging it out of feudal isolation and into the modern world. IMHO, it should have been a signal to European nations: do not ignore the power, commitment or resolve of the Japanese. It was ignored.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/28/2022 9:27:28 AM
Today in World History, bring on any new topics!??

5-27 in history! The following were not commented on yet, any new posts??

1660 the Treaty of Copenhagen brings Scandinavia closer together? Or does it??

1703 St Petersburg, in Russia is founded! What made it such a important city?? Comments??

1933 Walt Disney releases the children's story, Three Little Pigs! What's the problem going on with Disney World & the state government of Florida?? Anyone?

Today 5-28 in history, some events below, comments, anyone??

1291 the Crusaders losses the battle for Acre, & had to withdraw from the So called Holy Land! What's your take on the Crusades?? Were they warrented or just olden day Jihads?? Comments??

1660 George I, was the 1st Hanover King? For us non-British Monarchy people, what's this all about???

1787 the Federalist Papers are written on the proposed Constitution! Wonder what the founding fathers would think about how it's used today?? Will it survive these troubled times much longer?? What say you??

1804 Napoleon established the French Empire! Really were the citizens of France behind him, & his aggressive ways?? Comments, anyone??

1830 Andrew Jackson Institutes the Indian Removal Act! Why doesn't someone remove Jackson & his cronies! He was possibly the worst president towards the Native Americans!? Who was the worst Canadian leader towards 1st Nations?? Anyone??

1937 Volkswagen is founded by the Nazis! What military vehicles did the help Germany with? What do you think of the later peacetime cars?? Bug anyone??

1937 Neville Chamberlain becomes PM of Great Britain! How is he perceived today?? Peace in our time?? What say you??

1997 Pakistan has the bomb! Look out!? Comments on the most dangerous countries that have Atomic Weapons!? Does Russia, & China head the list?? Anyone??

1908 Ian Fleming is born, what did you think of him as A author?? Anyone??

Please comment, & Take care,
Happy Memorial Day weekend!
MD

Bri, & George,

Thanks for recent comments, hey other MHO'ers, lets get involved? I may be away from my computer at our cottage this Weekend!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/28/2022 12:58:58 PM
Quote:
On this day in 1940, an attempt to withdraw allied troops from the port of Dunkirk began. What began as a desperate attempt to save perhaps 30,000 of the BEF became an incredible withdrawal of some 340,000 British, French and other allied troops. Dunkirk, an abject defeat of the armed might of four nations, began to be touted as a success. WSC saw it for the defeat it was, but the propaganda machine found terms like “miracle at Dunkirk” or the increasing disgreeable “little boats of Britain” to mask the disaster of Allied command when Germany headed west.

Cheers
Brian G



Brian,

The ‘ miracle of Dunkirk” owed a lot to rearguards, some of them literally sacrificial, which entailed some hard fighting and some very unpleasant reprisals from vengeful Germans.

One such, at a place called Wormhoudt, occurred on this day in 1940.

This was a British version of the Malmedy massacre. A significant number of British soldiers, men from Warwickshire and Cheshire, surrendered to the Germans, after having fought to cover the retreat. About eighty of these men , having been taken captive were herded into a barn, where they were subsequently killed by Germans who threw grenades into the building and riddled the place with bullets. Fifteen wounded men were still alive after the murderous onslaught, but only six of them survived, two of them because they “ played dead” and were able to escape. This probably happened elsewhere in that desperate attempt to hold the perimeter of the Dunkirk Pocket, and the preponderance of the victims must have been French. There must have been many civilian victims, too.

Regards, Phil


----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3271
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/28/2022 6:29:26 PM
Quote:
Quote:
On this day in 1940, an attempt to withdraw allied troops from the port of Dunkirk began. What began as a desperate attempt to save perhaps 30,000 of the BEF became an incredible withdrawal of some 340,000 British, French and other allied troops. Dunkirk, an abject defeat of the armed might of four nations, began to be touted as a success. WSC saw it for the defeat it was, but the propaganda machine found terms like “miracle at Dunkirk” or the increasing disgreeable “little boats of Britain” to mask the disaster of Allied command when Germany headed west.

Cheers
Brian G



Brian,

The ‘ miracle of Dunkirk” owed a lot to rearguards, some of them literally sacrificial, which entailed some hard fighting and some very unpleasant reprisals from vengeful Germans.

One such, at a place called Wormhoudt, occurred on this day in 1940.

This was a British version of the Malmedy massacre. A significant number of British soldiers, men from Warwickshire and Cheshire, surrendered to the Germans, after having fought to cover the retreat. About eighty of these men , having been taken captive were herded into a barn, where they were subsequently killed by Germans who threw grenades into the building and riddled the place with bullets. Fifteen wounded men were still alive after the murderous onslaught, but only six of them survived, two of them because they “ played dead” and were able to escape. This probably happened elsewhere in that desperate attempt to hold the perimeter of the Dunkirk Pocket, and the preponderance of the victims must have been French. There must have been many civilian victims, too.

Regards, Phil



Wormhoudt and Malmedy - 4 years apart but the same unit. SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. And the same people involved Josef "Sepp" Dietrich, Wilhelm Mohnke and Joachim Peiper.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/28/2022 8:34:55 PM
Phil, Trevor, thanks (I guess) for the reminder of SS LAH. This remained a nasty bunch until the very end.

I lose the names of military groups too easily, and went hunting to check a reference about SS atrocities. I was thinking, however, of SS Das Reich, and their series of slaughters and war crimes as they marched towards Normandy in 1944, particularly at Tulle (June 9; 99 dead) and Oradour-Sur-Glane (June 10; 642 dead). There are things one must keep in mind when discussing WW2!

Yet I know I’m going to be writing a much kinder post about 1933-45 Germany as soon as I sign this one off. And on the same forum.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/28/2022 9:38:43 PM
On this day in 1937, according to an online Britannica source, Quote:
The German automaker Volkswagen was founded to mass-produce a low-priced “people's car”; the company was originally operated by a Nazi organization.
This statement somewhat bothers me. Perhaps it shouldn’t, but it does.

The concept of a “people’s car” had been on the cards from the time of Ford’s Model-T, so sometime around 1910. The idea first arose in Germany in 1934, and IIRC initial design work was undertaken by Porsche. At about the same time, Citroën of France was developing the 2CV. In GB, the Morris 8 appeared (1935). The US, of course, had (from 1928) the remarkable Ford Model A.

Particularly in the Iron Curtain countries through the Cold War, the same concept was tried again, with vehicles like the Skoda, the Brabant and the Lada amongst others. These latter attempts were less successful, but proliferated because nothing else was available.

I “get” the idea of building a basic, inexpensive vehicle for – if not the working classes – then at least the lower middle classes. Every one of those inter-war vehicles was a winner. Well designed; well built; easy to maintain.

So what bothers me? The fact that Britannica felt the need to describe production as a “Nazi organization”. So what! Does this make it a bad concept or a bad goal?

The VW aside, ever heard about MV Wilhelm Gustloff? Or the vacation camps along Germany’s Baltic coast? They were part of the Nazi regime’s attempts to open new experiences to Germans. I “get” that part of the aim was to make Party membership more attractive. I “get” that while some of these offerings were more easily enjoyed by supporters of the regime, and I continue to be repulsed by the fact that no such facilities were open to Jews. But they were actions by a dictatorial German party designed to provide enjoyment and mobility and travel experience to those they considered “good” Germans.

The Citröen 2CV was a State-driven concept committed for realization to a state-supported automaker. Nobody notes this was operated by a Socialist organization. Nobody talks about what motivated the development of the Morris 8 or Ford’s two Models. The VW was an incredibly well-considered gift to first car owners. This ain’t a Nazi thing; it’s a sociological thing.

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/29/2022 4:24:40 PM
"So what bothers me? The fact that Britannica felt the need to describe production as a “Nazi organization”. So what! Does this make it a bad concept or a bad goal?"

Full disclosure.
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