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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/30/2022 4:25:55 PM
Quote:
Today in World History, bring on any new topics!??

5-27 in history! The following were not commented on yet, any new posts??

1660 the Treaty of Copenhagen brings Scandinavia closer together? Or does it??

1703 St Petersburg, in Russia is founded! What made it such a important city?? Comments??

1933 Walt Disney releases the children's story, Three Little Pigs! What's the problem going on with Disney World & the state government of Florida?? Anyone?

Today 5-28 in history, some events below, comments, anyone??

1291 the Crusaders losses the battle for Acre, & had to withdraw from the So called Holy Land! What's your take on the Crusades?? Were they warrented or just olden day Jihads?? Comments??

1660 George I, was the 1st Hanover King? For us non-British Monarchy people, what's this all about???

1787 the Federalist Papers are written on the proposed Constitution! Wonder what the founding fathers would think about how it's used today?? Will it survive these troubled times much longer?? What say you??

1804 Napoleon established the French Empire! Really were the citizens of France behind him, & his aggressive ways?? Comments, anyone??

1830 Andrew Jackson Institutes the Indian Removal Act! Why doesn't someone remove Jackson & his cronies! He was possibly the worst president towards the Native Americans!? Who was the worst Canadian leader towards 1st Nations?? Anyone??

1937 Volkswagen is founded by the Nazis! What military vehicles did the help Germany with? What do you think of the later peacetime cars?? Bug anyone??

1937 Neville Chamberlain becomes PM of Great Britain! How is he perceived today?? Peace in our time?? What say you??

1997 Pakistan has the bomb! Look out!? Comments on the most dangerous countries that have Atomic Weapons!? Does Russia, & China head the list?? Anyone??

1908 Ian Fleming is born, what did you think of him as A author?? Anyone??

Please comment, & Take care,
Happy Memorial Day weekend!
MD

Bri, & George,

Thanks for recent comments, hey other MHO'ers, lets get involved? I may be away from my computer at our cottage this Weekend!?


Check out 5-30 in history! Comments anyone!?

1381 the English Peasants Revolt! What that all about!??

1806 Andrew Jackson involved in one of his almost 100 duels!? How can this be? & A President of the United States!? What say you about duels at this time in history? Anyone??

1854 the Kansas Nebraska Act is passed how did this influence the future Civil War? Comments??

1911 the 1stIndy 500 run, do you consider auto racing a sport? Comments?

1922 the Lincoln Memorial is dedicated in dc, was Abe America's greatest president!? What say you? Why??

1942 the RAF sends 1000 bombers against Cologne, Germany! Can anyone enlighten us with how the mission went??

Thanks to all Vets this Memorial Day!
Least we forget those who made the ultimate sacrifice!?
Regards,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/30/2022 8:28:36 PM
Quote:
1942 the RAF sends 1000 bombers against Cologne, Germany! Can anyone enlighten us with how the mission went??

In a word, “well”. Unless you were a German living in Cologne.

In fact, this is considered one of the pivotal RAF raids of the war. Partly, that was because of the size of the raid: this was the first ever 1000-bomber raid. But there were all kinds of other things that made this a great success.

Let’s get some of the basics out of the way first. Bomber Harris had been C-in-C RAF Bomber Command for only 13 weeks at the time of the raid; he had taken over BC at a time when there was serious consideration about abandoning the concept of strategic bombing entirely. A rethinking of bombing technique in Harris’s first weeks had led to major successes against cities like Lübeck and Rostock, but these were somewhat unique targets and did not offer a guarantee of RAF BC success in the future. Harris presented the case for a series of 1,000 bomber raids to the Air Ministry and WSC, and received their approval. The attack took place (although until the last minute the chosen target city was Hamburg (second largest German city) rather than Cologne (third largest).

Often forgotten is the fact that at the time of the Cologne raid (“Millennium”) Harris had no more than 400 active bombers to hand when he received support for the 1,000-raids. He garnered support from RAF Coastal Command and from 91 and 92 (OTU) Groups – operational transition units moving crews from 2- to 4-engined a/c – and from FTC (Flying Training Command), though at the last minute RAF Coastal Command reneged. Harris fund the means to overcome this betrayal and still achive his 1,000 numbers. IMHO, this was bad decision-making in the cause of potentially successful propaganda, but that’s beside the point.

Ultimately, 1047 bombers were dispatched to Cologne that night, with an additional 50 a/c committed to night-fighter repression. Of the 1047 a/c, 755 (72.1%) were twin-engined. Of those 755, The Whitleys (28), Manchesters (46) and Hampdens (79) were largely obsolete; only the Wellingtons (602) were still front-line bombers, and would remain so well into 1943. The three 4-engined a/c of BC (Stirlings, Halifaxes and Lancasters), on which RAF BC would rely until war’s end, comprised only 27.8% of the raid.

Two points worth noting: only 73 Lancasters were part of the raid; they were still coming on line. Secondly, there are no Mosquitoes. They would actually make their debut the next day.

Some fodder for thought there, IIUC.

But the more interesting, perhaps more important issues concerning this raid on Cologne are:
• The introduction of “streaming”, a means of undercutting German night-fighter operations by flooding “Himmelbetts”, which could typically handle only 6 interceptions/hour.
• The use of “Gee” as a navigational tool, placed in the hands of experienced and more accurate crews. This led to much more accurate target marking, but – of course – only when accurate.
• Reduction of conglomerate time over target. 1000 bombers would cross their targets within 90 minutes.

These were all introduced during this raid. They had a more powerful impact on RAF BC’s future than the propaganda value of generating a 1,000 a/c mission.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/31/2022 4:25:10 PM
This day in history May 30-31! All posts welcome!???

Check out 5-30 in history! Comments anyone!?

1381 the English Peasants Revolt! What that all about!??

1806 Andrew Jackson involved in one of his almost 100 duels!? How can this be? & A President of the United States!? What say you about duels at this time in history? Anyone??

1854 the Kansas Nebraska Act is passed how did this influence the future Civil War? Comments??

1911 the 1stIndy 500 run, do you consider auto racing a sport? Comments?

1922 the Lincoln Memorial is dedicated in dc, was Abe America's greatest president!? What say you? Why??

1942 the RAF sends 1000 bombers against Cologne, Germany! Can anyone enlighten us with how the mission went?? Thanks for the great reply Brian! Very enlightening, & informative!!!


Regards,
MD



Checking 5-31, the last day in May, comments anyone??

1819 poet Walt Whitman was born! What was his greatest poem?? How about Captain, my Captain!!??

1889 the Johnstown flood over 2,000 peopled died! What was your countries worst flood? Anyone??

1902 the Boer War ends!? How did the Native S. Africans fare???

1916 the naval battle of the Jutland Sea, begins, one of the more costly naval engagement ever fought by the RN!
Who won?? What say you??

1921 the Tulsa Race Riots over 300 blacks massacred!! Why?? Anyone???

1962 Adolf Eichmann is hung for killing jews! Who was the worst Nazi in that regard?? Any comments??

1977 Trans Alaskan Pipeline completed! Does this threaten even pristine Canadian territory!? Comments??

Comments on new topics? &
Stay safe!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/31/2022 5:49:01 PM
Quote:
1977 Trans Alaskan Pipeline completed! Does this threaten even pristine Canadian territory!? Comments??


As I recall, this pipeline only runs through Alaska, from Prudhoe Bay to a port called Valdez.

There was a debate in the US as to whether a trans-Canada pipeline would be the better bet but it was eventually rejected, partly because Canada insisted upon Canadian ownership, Canadian workers and Canadian regulations.

Currently the US is examining the supporting structures for the above ground pipeline in Alaska. Given that the permafrost is melting, there is a chance that the pipes could become damaged and an oil leak could occur.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/1/2022 7:50:58 PM
George,

Good point a unstable permafrost situation.is a concern!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/2/2022 12:24:32 PM




Checking 5-31, the last day in May, comments anyone??

1819 poet Walt Whitman was born! What was his greatest poem?? How about Captain, my Captain!!??

1889 the Johnstown flood over 2,000 peopled died! What was your countries worst flood? Anyone??

1902 the Boer War ends!? How did the Native S. Africans fare???

1916 the naval battle of the Jutland Sea, begins, one of the more costly naval engagement ever fought by the RN!
Who won?? What say you??

1921 the Tulsa Race Riots over 300 blacks massacred!! Why?? Anyone???

1962 Adolf Eichmann is hung for killing jews! Who was the worst Nazi in that regard?? Any comments??

1977 Trans Alaskan Pipeline completed! Does this threaten even pristine Canadian territory!? Comments??

Comments on new topics? &
Stay safe!
MD

& Checking 6-1 or 6-2 in history!? Anyone? Sometimes it it's interesting to find out what preparations were going on for lets say D day at this time?! Or even Gettysburg? Any websites or comments on this?? Anyone?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/2/2022 8:06:51 PM
On 2 June 1953 Elizabeth was crowned Queen of a whole bunch of places. She had been de facto Queen since the death of her father, George VI, in Feb 1952. I still have the medallion given to school children in Canada to mark the occasion.

This weekend will be a time of celebration on her 70th year on the throne. How large it will be I can’t say. In how many countries there may be more than formal recognition of her 70 years, I don’t know. But she has remained through harsh times, and after seven decades it is hard for many to separate Elizabeth from the concept of monarchy.

For a bit of US perspective, Elizabeth II came to the throne when Harry Truman was POTUS. Her reign has seen 13 POTUS come and go, + 1 in power. I believe she has met all but one of them. Can’t remember which one she didn’t meet, but assume it might have been President Ford, just because of the brief time he held office.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/3/2022 9:12:54 AM
Checking 6-3, in history, here are a few note worthy events comments & new topics welcome! Anyone??

1808 Jefferson Davis, like A. Lincoln is born in Kentucky! Actually the 2 have very simular histories? You wonder if under different circumstances if their paths had crossed, maybe they would have been friends?? Any websites or comments on their parallels? What say you?

1844 Great Auks a flightless bird becomes extinct, killed in Iceland! Passenger Pigeons & others of this era also become extinct! Once many species, being hugely populated, were killed off, how did this happen?? What say you??

1864 in the battle of Cold Harbor the Union loses 7,000 men! Was their general US Grant a butcher or a great general?? Comments?

1937 Prince Edward Duke of Windsor gives up the throne to marry an American socialite! What's your take on Edward? Was his giving up the throne, actually better for the Commonwealth, especially in those WWII times??
What say you?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/3/2022 10:11:27 AM
Quote:
On 2 June 1953 Elizabeth was crowned Queen of a whole bunch of places. She had been de facto Queen since the death of her father, George VI, in Feb 1952. I still have the medallion given to school children in Canada to mark the occasion.

This weekend will be a time of celebration on her 70th year on the throne. How large it will be I can’t say. In how many countries there may be more than formal recognition of her 70 years, I don’t know. But she has remained through harsh times, and after seven decades it is hard for many to separate Elizabeth from the concept of monarchy.

For a bit of US perspective, Elizabeth II came to the throne when Harry Truman was POTUS. Her reign has seen 13 POTUS come and go, + 1 in power. I believe she has met all but one of them. Can’t remember which one she didn’t meet, but assume it might have been President Ford, just because of the brief time he held office.

Cheers,
Brian G


The day went really well, helped by some really decent weather.

The survival prospects of the Monarchy are becoming fragile. The Republican surge is quite strong.

Significantly, though, the regard for the Queen herself is high and endures : indeed, it’s enhanced of late, I think.

One of my close friends worked in a junior capacity for Lord Louis Mountbatten, and has had quite a lot of contact with members of the Royal Family. He’s quite bitter about them, and is a trenchant Republican. Hardly a good word to say for any of them, with the notable exception of the Queen, for whom he retains respect and admiration.

Incidentally, Brian, I’ve just heard that LBJ was the only POTUS that the Queen did not meet.

That honour fell to her younger sister, Princess Margaret, who, according to the Netflix drama series The Crown, entertained LBJ to an array of ribald limerick’s, including :

There was a young woman from Dallas,

Who used dynamite as a phallas,

They found her vagina

In South Carolina

And her arsehole in Buckingham Palace.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
6/3/2022 1:52:29 PM
In D-Day: Intelligence and Deception (1979) Jock Haswell wrote about the German 352.Infanterie-Division on page 145 that:

Quote:
Exactly a fortnight before D-Day, Brigadier E. T. Williams, Montgomery's senior intelligence officer in 21st Army Group, gave a warning of the possible move up of this Division to thicken up the defences of the Wall between 709 and 716 Divisions. His warning was printed in 21 Army Group Weekly Neptune Intelligence Review issued on 3 June, and though on a very limited circulation, it was distributed to senior American commanders.


Some of the actual wording in E. T. Williams extremely late June 3 warning is in Omaha Beach: D-Day, June 6, 1944 by Joseph Balkoski. It states on page 50:

Quote:
For some time now in other areas coastal divisions have been narrowing their sectors, while divisions the role of which has hitherto been read as lay-back have nosed forward into the gaps provided by the reduced responsibility of the coastal divisions. . . .The evidence that the same has happened on the left in the case of 716th Division is slender indeed; yet it should not be surprising if we discovered that it has two regiments in the line and one in reserve, while on its left the 352nd has one regiment up and two to play.


Balkoski writes that the warning was received by the US commanders on June 4 with Gerow of V Corps and Huebner of the 1st Division already on ships heading to Normandy. This was far too late to change plans.

The failure of Allied Intelligence is particularly notable as the 352.Infanterie-Division had started its move toward the Normandy coast in February and had completed it by mid-March, almost three months before the Normandy landings.

Gary
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/3/2022 3:01:27 PM
Interesting, Gary : the folklore of D-Day tends to emphasise Allied skills in deception and surprise. This stands as a degree of refutation.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/4/2022 7:44:00 PM
Quote:
1937 Prince Edward Duke of Windsor gives up the throne to marry an American socialite! What's your take on Edward? Was his giving up the throne, actually better for the Commonwealth, especially in those WWII times??

Sorry to arrive a day late and a dollar short to this question.

Edward was the eldest son of King George V and Queen Mary, and as such was heir apparent to the throne. It was not a role he enjoyed, in that he found royal duties to be distasteful chores. At the same time, he did seem to enjoy the manner of living he enjoyed as an heir to a crown. He was almost universally liked by all members of the Empire and Commonwealth, since he had a charismatic nature. I’m perhaps being unkind, but I believe his character was to weak and hedonistic to contemplate responsibilities because of his status.

To his inner circle of close friends and his family, he was known as David. I have always felt that David rather enjoyed dressing up as Prince of Wales, but was not disposed by character to assume the role that entailed.

His decision to abdicate in order to marry Wallis Simpson came as a surprise to most of his subjects, but I sense he never considered any other course. At issue were her two previous marriages, not her American background. As Edward VIII, David would become titular and ceremonial head of the Church of England, whose doctrine at the time disallowed a divorced person to remarry.

The other issue – about his alleged sympathies with Hitler’s Germany and Nazi ideals – in effect became moot once the decision to abdicate was made. Nevertheless, I believe he and Wallis were monitored and manipulated throughout the war.

Personally, at least in hindsight I can say I’m glad he bailed before his coronation, even though in doing so he dumped a huge weight on a retiring, socially awkward younger brother with a speech impediment. I would be less fussed about his decision had he not so enjoyed the perks of being a Prince.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/4/2022 7:52:43 PM
Quote:
Checking 6-3, in history, here are a few note worthy events comments & new topics welcome! Anyone??

1808 Jefferson Davis, like A. Lincoln is born in Kentucky! Actually the 2 have very simular histories? You wonder if under different circumstances if their paths had crossed, maybe they would have been friends?? Any websites or comments on their parallels? What say you?

1844 Great Auks a flightless bird becomes extinct, killed in Iceland! Passenger Pigeons & others of this era also become extinct! Once many species, being hugely populated, were killed off, how did this happen?? What say you??

1864 in the battle of Cold Harbor the Union loses 7,000 men! Was their general US Grant a butcher or a great general?? Comments?

1937 Prince Edward Duke of Windsor gives up the throne to marry an American socialite! What's your take on Edward? Was his giving up the throne, actually better for the Commonwealth, especially in those WWII times??
What say you?


6-4 in history events, (this early to mid June is a time where a lot of important history events happened!) Check these out!? Comments, anyone??

1786 Napoleon wins in the seige of Mantua! Another victory for Bonaparte! What say you where does he stand as an effective Commander?? Anyone??

1919 Women are granted the right to vote! (19th Amendment) How strong of a voting block are they today??

1942 the Japanese are defeated in the Battle of Midway! 4 IJN Aircraft Carriers that were involved at Pearl Harbor are sank! How did the USN achieve such a one sided victory!??? What say you??

1970 the Kingdom of Tonga break free of the British Empire!? Why would they seek independence from such a strong entity?? Comments, anyone??

1940 The Dunkirk evacuation is over, how important was it for the Allies in the overall picture involving WWII victory in Europe?? Comments?

Tomorrow 6-5 in history this history happened!? Any new posts?? Anyone?

1849 Denmark abolishes its monarchy! What effect did this have on the rest of Scandinavia?
& what Government replaced it?? What say you?

1939 Joe Clark becomes Canada's youngest Prime Minister was born! How did the youngster do?? Anyone??

1944 the Allies liberate Rome! Is it the beginning of the end for the Axis forces? What battle do you see as the turning point of WWII in Europe? I'll give you a hint on mine, it will occure, 6-6 1944!?Comments on how you see this??

1967 Start of the Six Day War! All wars should be so short!? Were the Israelis that much better than their adversaries in this area?? How did the dominate, & win?? What about this?

1968 Senator Robert Kennedy seeking to win the US Presidency is assassinated! A very sad day in America!? What say you?

Lots to discuss here & any new topics posts & websites welcome!???
Regards,
MD





----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/4/2022 8:42:35 PM
Quote:
1939 Joe Clark becomes Canada's youngest Prime Minister was born! How did the youngster do?? Anyone??

Wow! Joe is older than me. I did not know that. As a PM he never acted more maturely than me!

How did he do? Wretchedly, IMHO. As a PM and party leader of the PCs (Progressive Conservatives) he had little credibility. It was only as the PC party was swallowed by much more extreme right-wing politicians out of western Canada that Joe achieved an almost cult status as a Conservative guru. He is not the first Conservative leader we have lost to increasing conservative values. But I think his moderate views, which he continued to espouse, brought some respect and a sense of loss to the Canadian political arena.

He was probably not PM material. He was not particularly charismatic, and he was not well-spoken. In one painfull interview I remember, he talked about not having taken economics courses at Uni because it was more essential he spoke two languages.

At the same time, I believe he was a thoroughly good and decent man who from his high school days committed himself to Canada. He was by no means the best PM Canada has had. But he may have been one of the more honest and more honourable politicians Canada has had.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
6/5/2022 7:49:00 AM
Joe Clark was always played as a hapless character by the political pundits and cartoonists. Andy Donato was a cartoonist with the Toronto Sun and he always drew Joe wearing a pair of "idiot mittens".

Clark had apparently lost his luggage on a trip to Israel and Donato decided that the mittens would portray Clark as a bumbling character.



He was always contrasted with his nemesis, Pierre Trudeau, who was a much more charismatic man. However, Joe was the only person to defeat Trudeau in a general election, I believe.



And he was front and centre as he attempted to unite the Conservatives (then Progressive, I believe). That party continues to be plagued by issues of unity. Jacques Leger was the PC party President and one of those who wanted Joe out.



Cheers,

George

Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/5/2022 8:54:23 PM
On 5/6 June 1942, RAF Bomber Command attacked Essen, a target in the Ruhr. It was a raid reminiscent of failures which took place all too often during 1940 and 1941. Here is Martin Middlebrook’s description (Bomber Command War Diaries, p. 272):

“180 aircraft – 98 Wellingtons, 33 Halifaxes, 25 Stirlings, 13 Lancasters, 11 Hampden.
12 aircraft – 8 Wellingtons, 2 Stirlings, 1 Halifax, 1 Lancaster – lost.
This was another failure, with bombing being scattered over a wide area. Essen suffered minor property damage, 10 people killed and 68 injured.”

The loss rate as a percentage is 6.67%, which is creeping above the 5%+ deemed acceptable. And throughout the War Diary the losses are counted in a/c rather than in men.

If you assume (and I’m not sure at the moment how a/c losses were counted, but I believe “lost” typically means “lost to enemy action”. Assuming – not a good assumption, except for my point – that the crew were also lost, and given the numbers making up crew for each a/c type – RAF BC losses for the night totalled 78, exactly the number of German civilians killed and wounded in the raid. It’s not a way to win the war.

Why raise this raid? Because it has personal significance, Sitting in the tail turret of one of the Wellington’s, on his first op over Germany, was my future father-in-law. He was the only rookie in the crew; the rest were completing their 30 ops that meant a completed tour, and were probably cursing their luck that they had this virgin covering their six.

It was a bad flight for this Wellington. Unknown to anyone, Geoff’s oxygen line had been nicked during a previous op. Predictably Geoff passed out as they passed 12,000’ regaining consciousness only sporadically until they started their bomb run over Essen. Search lights found them and the flak units followed. They dove, weaving, attempting to escape the beams and get out of the gunlayers’ target zone. Then a night fighter appeared below them, and Geoff rattled off some rounds before his ship was hit, a fire started, and the hydraulics went south. And, an added insult, Geoff’s intercom link was shot out.

In the end, they crash-landed in a field and cleared the a/c, taking with them a Second Pilot who had been wounded. He was on a familiarization flight, and nobody knew his name.

Geoff was a terse man, but this crash must have been much more vicious than his description of it, which I have truncated here. The flight was written up in “Wings Abroad”, the RCAF newspaper under the title “Epic Flight”. More telling, of the six-man crew – all F/Sgts and Canadian – three (pilot, navigator, wireless operator) received DFMs. Some have argued that for an enlisted man to receive the DFM was about 10 times less likely that an officer receiving the nominally equivalent DFC.

This was indulgent on my part. I apologize. But…three DFMs in one a/c on a failed raid deserves notice.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 7:51:30 AM
It's a great story Brian and worthy of the telling. I noted that initially you reported the cold statistics that reflected the losses during the raid and that those losses only reflected the number of aircraft lost and not the human cost. And so I appreciated the "family" story about your father-in-law greatly in that the true cost of war is revealed. Let us never forget the danger that these men experienced or the losses incurred.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 10:24:58 AM
Hi Brian,

Like George, I really appreciate your personal take on that RAF bombing run where your Father in law & his crew got shot down! I can't image his thoughts of being a tail gunner of a Wellington Bomber!? Thank you for sharing, it was a very meaningful post for me, I had an Uncle, (Leo) also shot down on a bombing run over Germany. He & his crew were taken prisoner, hopefully Geoff, & his mates missed being captured?? (btw do you think that Allied Airmen taken prisoner by the Germans were treated, at least compaired to other prisoners better, because so many German Air personel were captured by the Allies? Just curious??)

Bring this post up to today in history, concerning of course D day! It was on that day the largest air operation ever, happened! A few generalities I read was that Bomber Harris had his RAF bombers hit Utah Beach ahead of the invasion, he wisely had them find land & bomb running parallel to the beach & the German armed defenses! Doing a much better job than the Americans who bombed Utah beach straight on in the heavy clouds, releasing way to late with little effect on the German defenders? The American boys hitting Utah paid quite a price for this!? Then you look at other air related parts to the invasion, like the gliders, & paratroopers, & you can see just how massive this Air part of D day was?? & this isn't even taking into account the exceptional bombing going up the coast at Calais to fool the Germans? I guess Rommel was at his wife's birthday party, so that was good!?

So lets discuss the complicated Allied air operation of D day!

Anyone can chime in?
Lots to discuss!
MD

& on a larger scale, today's obvious & major topic is D day, 6-6-1944, tons of things to discuss, some not widely known!? Please pitch in! All comments, websites, & posts welcome!?

PS why was it called D day? Anyone??

Also any ceremonies going on in any of the countries involved? Posting videos on them or historical videos on that day would be great!? What say you? About D day???
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 10:48:04 AM
Dave,

Didn’t Utah go remarkably smoothly for the Americans ?

It was Omaha, surely, where the poor boys got really hammered.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 11:25:12 AM
Hi Phil,

Your right, it was Omaha! Senior moment for me! BTW any ceremonies going on in the Isles to mark D day?? Or I'm sure you have some note worthy information on this incredible operation!? (78th anniversary, I believe??) Anyone on any remembrances going on in your areas?? I'm sure Normandy, France has a big one? Could someone post it my cheap tablet won't let me?? I saw an old picture of paratroopers by their plane, it had written on it, (to the Germans, 'the channel stopped you! But it won't stop us!!) Right on boys!!

Thanks,
MD

Also come on MHO'ers, Post! I can't imagine a bigger more extensive topic, than D day!? What say y'all??

BTW, the losses were horrific! I lost a Uncle who I never knew! My Uncle Norbert, rest his soul, was killed by shrapnel! There still are soldiers who were there, some are visiting Normandy today, kind of reminds us of Gettysburg's later anniversaries!??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 12:26:30 PM
Quote:
Hi Phil,

Your right, it was Omaha! Senior moment for me! BTW any ceremonies going on in the Isles to mark D day?? Or I'm sure you have some note worthy information on this incredible operation!? (78th anniversary, I believe??) Anyone on any remembrances going on in your areas?? I'm sure Normandy, France has a big one? Could someone post it my cheap tablet won't let me?? I saw an old picture of paratroopers by their plane, it had written on it, (to the Germans, 'the channel stopped you! But it won't stop us!!) Right on boys!!

Thanks,
MD

Also come on MHO'ers, Post! I can't imagine a bigger more extensive topic, than D day!? What say y'all??

BTW, the losses were horrific! I lost a Uncle who I never knew! My Uncle Norbert, rest his soul, was killed by shrapnel! There still are soldiers who were there, some are visiting Normandy today, kind of reminds us of Gettysburg's later anniversaries!??


Dave,

Political shenanigans over here today have rather stolen the limelight.

And, of course, the Queen's Platinum Jubilee celebrations have been to the fore of everything.

D day has had a mention, though, which is as it should be.

The losses that day were heavy at OMAHA, and also for the Canadians at JUNO. The general reckoning, though, was that the loss of life was remarkably modest, given the boldness of the undertaking, and all the hazards that nature and a resolute foe threw down.

That doesn't fit the picture for your poor uncle Norbet, though, does it ?

I get the impression that the more fearful losses were imposed by the vicious battles in the days that followed, as the Allies had to contend with the hedgerow battles.

The British had not properly budgeted for the infantry casualty rates that ensued.



Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 4:52:04 PM
Quote:
Bring this post up to today in history, concerning of course D day! It was on that day the largest air operation ever, happened! A few generalities I read was that Bomber Harris had his RAF bombers hit Utah Beach ahead of the invasion, he wisely had them find land & bomb running parallel to the beach & the German armed defenses! Doing a much better job than the Americans who bombed Utah beach straight on in the heavy clouds, releasing way to late with little effect on the German defenders?


The US IXth Bomber Command conducted the bombing on the Utah invasion beach. It was not the RAF. The 344th, 386th, and 387th Bomb Groups using about 300 B-26 Marauders was the force used on Utah. They did bomb parallel to the coast and that probably helped accuracy, but the most important thing they did was to go in below the cloud cover.

It was an overcast day on June 6, 1944 at the landing sites. The pilots of the B-26's bombing Utah were ordered to go in as low as necessary to get a clear view of their target. They did so and dropped their bombs between 3500 and 7000 feet, although some pilots claimed they were actually lower. After the invasion a survey of the beach estimated that 43% of their bombs landed within 300 feet of their target.

By contrast, the much larger bomber force of B-17s and B-24s that tried to bomb Omaha did so above the clouds. They could not see the beach and the pathfinders were using their H2X radar to determine when to drop the bombs. They were under strict orders that if they could not see the beach they were to delay release of the bombs for up to 30 seconds. Under no circumstances were they to bomb short and hit the incoming landing craft.

In Joseph Balkoski's book Omaha Beach: D-Day, June 6, 1944 on page 87 he quotes a special instruction that was given to the 2nd Bomb Division conducting the bombing of Omaha.

Quote:
Greatest possible care will be taken to prevent accidental releases and to insure that all bomb drops are overages due to dangers of shorts causing loss of Allied lives and damage to landing points. Troops will be 400 yards to one mile offshore during attack.


Another comment from the Eighth Air Force on the bombing, also on page 87, stated:

Quote:
It was deemed advisable to adopt further precautionary measures to prevent bombs from falling on friendly troops. . . . Accordingly, in conjunction with HQ A.E.A.F., it was decided that if cloud cover should prevent visual synchronization, bombs would be dropped on Pathfinder indications in the normal manner except that the release would be delayed so that the Mean Point of Impact would be no less than 1,000 yards from the forward wave of the water-borne assault forces.


Gary

Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 9:07:40 PM
Gary, thanks for your coverage of USAAF activities in support of D-Day landings. I am shamefully ignorant of many US issues. You note the B-26s were with the 9th; am I right in inferring that the B-17s and B24s were with the “Mighty 8th”? Also, you mention “the much larger force” of -17s and -24s bombing Omaha. Do you have a number for that “larger” force?

RAF BC was, as MD suggests, active, dispatching some 1211 a/c. By far the largest group, 1,012 a/c (551 Lancs, 412 Hallys, 49 Mosuitoes), were to attack 10 distinct locations having Normandy Coastal Batteries. Most of the bombing was based on Oboe bombing. According to Middlebrook’s Bomber Command War Diaries, p.523, only “3 aircraft were lost – 2 Halifaxes of 4 Group on the Mont Fleury raid and 1 Lancaster of 6 Group on the Longues raid. … At least 5,000 tons of bombs were dropped; the greatest tonnage in one night so far in the war”.

More interesting to me are the less celebrated RAF actions for the night.

110 a/c from 1 and 100 Groups performed bomber support operations. Full information on these is not complete, but these were the part of the Boffin’s War, involving air-borne interception of German night-fighter instructions, countered by counter-instructions delivered by German-speaking RAF personnel.

Then there were the diversionary tactics. In particular I think of the 22 RAF BC a/c which created a fleet of vessels. 16 617 Squadron Lancs combined with some 6 G-H-fitted Stirlings from 218 Squadron flew precise patterns over the English Channel dropping masses of window (chaff, in US argot?) to create what on radar appeared to be a massive convoy approaching LeHavre, this sustaining the illusion of a landing north of the actual Normandy invasion site.

All this is well and good, of curse. But D-Day remains for me a story and a triumph of the doggies, the grunts, the ORs, the brown jobs. They were men on the beaches, wading into both the water and the fire, who made D-Day possible. Let’s not forget them, particularly on their day.

Cheers
Brian G



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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 9:13:26 PM
Quote:
I get the impression that the more fearful losses were imposed by the vicious battles in the days that followed, as the Allies had to contend with the hedgerow battles.


. A German counter attack on D-day nearly drove a wedge between the Canadians on Juno and the British on Sword. The right flank of the British had not linked with the left flank of the Canadians, and the German panzers and mechanized infantry drove hard through the gap. I believe that some elements actually reached the beach but the counter attack was stymied and the German forces withdrew from the beaches. I believe that this was the only major and serious counter attack by the Germans on D-day.

[Read More]

However, D-day plus 1, 2 and 3 proved as well to be costly and difficult days indeed in the Caen sector and casualties mounted for both the Canadian and British forces.

I have a book on my shelves titled Holding Juno by Mark Zuehlke and the author describes the vicious battles that took place between June 7 to 12 in the British and Canadian sectors. It is a book centred on the Canadian attempts to hold in the face of German counter attacks in the towns before Caen. He describes the subsequent fighting to hold the territory taken on June 6 as more difficult than the fighting on D-day itself.






Cheers,
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 10:31:31 PM
Brian,
The B-17s and B-24s were from the Eighth. The figures I've seen is that a total of 1361 B-17s and B-24s were sent of which 1083 were to bomb Omaha with 2944 tons of bombs. The rest of the planes had other targets. They almost diverted the so-called heavies that the Eighth was going to use near Caen to bomb Utah. The IX Bomber Command did not have the equipment to bomb without visual observation of the target that the Eighth had. However, the commander of the IXth asked for permission to go below the cloud cover that was 3500 feet and was permitted to do just that and the rest of the Eighth continued with their bombing mission near Caen.

The B-26s actually number 278 and they dropped 550 tons of bombs at Utah.

Also, 108 Lancasters were used to bomb Pointe-du-Hoc early on the morning of June 6. Since the guns there had been replaced by telephone polls in April there must have been a lot of tooth pics. As if that was not enough the USS Texas then fired 240 14 inch shells at Pointe-du-Hoc.

Gary
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/6/2022 10:43:58 PM
Guys,

Great posts on some of the many factors that made D day, successful!? Feel free to continue the various extremely interesting fasits of Operation Overlord!??

If you think of the Logistics alone. (Operation Neptune) it self is mind boggling? Fuel for so many vehicles, concrete docks for temporary ports, air strips built quickly near Normandy ready to take on planes used in this operation, various ammo, & other critical supplies, landing craft, specialty ships, to allow success for the largest amphibious invasion in the history of the world!?

The planning was overall really brilliant!? Remember how an earlier invasion at Dieppe, France, was a total disaister!? Now with this increadiblely successful invasion!? It had to blow the Nazis brain trust away!??? What say you??

Any good websites or posts on the Logistics!? Quite unbelievable, really!?
That incredibly were carried out to win this critical invasion!?

Thanks, & Regards,
MD

BTW I hope Rommel enjoyed his wife's birthday party!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/7/2022 4:42:48 AM
Dave,

Logistical and technological feats were indeed phenomenal in that invasion. The British prided themselves then - and still do now - on quirky inventions that helped deal with the enemy defences. “ Hobart’s Funnies”, they were called. Flailing chains in front of tanks, tanks that could float, deceptive dummy attacks with fake paratroop landings, and, above all, the Mulberry Harbour. I’m sure American ingenuity was there, too.

The British were desperate to use metal to save lives. To a significant degree, this worked. There was a corollary though : the availability of old fashioned infantry was compromised, and the resulting burden of casualties fell on cohorts of infantrymen in the rifle companies that resulted in grotesquely high proportionate loss of life in those small units. There were alarmingly high numbers of psychiatric casualties among those poor fellows.

I think that the British High Command, understandably anxious not to repeat the horrors of 1914-18, exposed their infantrymen to a terrifying ordeal in Normandy and elsewhere in NW Europe 1944-45 by dint of making the teeth to tail ratio rather distorted. Overall loss of life was relatively modest, but the cost to those men at the sharp end was awful.

I have two close friends called Peter, and they both had uncles who were killed in those Normandy battles.

One of them is buried in the CWGC cemetery at Bayeux, and the inscription above the archway at the entrance to that resting place for several thousand British and Commonwealth servicemen still makes me choke up : We, who were conquered by William, have liberated the land of the Conqueror “.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
6/7/2022 10:58:41 AM
Phil,

Quote:
Logistical and technological feats were indeed phenomenal in that invasion. The British prided themselves then - and still do now - on quirky inventions that helped deal with the enemy defences. “ Hobart’s Funnies”, they were called. Flailing chains in front of tanks, tanks that could float, deceptive dummy attacks with fake paratroop landings, and, above all, the Mulberry Harbour. I’m sure American ingenuity was there, too.


As I'm sure you know the "Hobart's Funnies" or the lack of them on Omaha Beach has been claimed to have been one of main reasons for the high casualties at Omaha. For decades it was falsely claimed that Omar Bradley and other US officials had refused them. I believe the first popular account to make this allegation was Chester Wilmot in his book The Struggle for Europe. It was included in the official British history in 1962 and Max Hastings repeated it in 1984. It was also repeated by US historians such as Stephen Ambrose. Omar Bradley had officially requested some of them in February 1944 but the British were unable to supply them in time for D-Day. Some arrived in July, others in August, and others were never received.

Utah Beach had the fewest casualties and they also did not have any of "Hobart's Funnies".

Gary
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/7/2022 11:17:03 AM
Quote:
Phil,

Quote:
Logistical and technological feats were indeed phenomenal in that invasion. The British prided themselves then - and still do now - on quirky inventions that helped deal with the enemy defences. “ Hobart’s Funnies”, they were called. Flailing chains in front of tanks, tanks that could float, deceptive dummy attacks with fake paratroop landings, and, above all, the Mulberry Harbour. I’m sure American ingenuity was there, too.


As I'm sure you know the "Hobart's Funnies" or the lack of them on Omaha Beach has been claimed to have been one of main reasons for the high casualties at Omaha. For decades it was falsely claimed that Omar Bradley and other US officials had refused them. I believe the first popular account to make this allegation was Chester Wilmot in his book The Struggle for Europe. It was included in the official British history in 1962 and Max Hastings repeated it in 1984. It was also repeated by US historians such as Stephen Ambrose. Omar Bradley had officially requested some of them in February 1944 but the British were unable to supply them in time for D-Day. Some arrived in July, others in August, and others were never received.

Utah Beach had the fewest casualties and they also did not have any of "Hobart's Funnies".

Gary



Thank you, Gary.

As I suspected, more than a tad of British triumphalism in the folklore !

I have seen film documentaries that stated that the Americans unleashed their floating tanks too far out from OMAHA beach, and that most of them sank, with dire results for the poor crews.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
6/7/2022 12:43:18 PM
Phil,

I do believe that "Hobart's Funnies" were useful and may very well have saved some British and Canadian soldiers. It is just that Omaha was so different from the other beaches, including Utah, that we have to look elsewhere for an explanation of high casualties on Omaha.

The 741st Tank Battalion launched their two companies of DD tanks at 5000 yards as they were ordered and most of them sank on the way into the beach. The two companies of DD tanks of the 743rd Tank Battalion were landed directly on the beach. Each tank battalion also had one company of deep wading tanks that made it to the beach or near it before being destroyed by German heavy weapons.

Apparently the launching of the DD tanks from 5000 yards at Omaha was no different than what the British did at Sword beach. At least according Antony Beevor. In his book D-Day: The Battle For Normandy in writing about Sword beach on page 136 he states:

Quote:
"The DD tank crews of the 13th/18th Hussars and the Staffordshire Yeomanry felt a different form of nausea when they received the order 'Floater, 5,000!'" The launch of the swimming tanks planned for 8,000 yards out had been reduced, but it was still a very long way to go in a sea with waves up to five feet high. Surprisingly, only six out of forty sank, two of them as a result of being rammed by landing craft out of control.


I don't know why so many of the US DD's sank when they were launched at roughly the same distance as those at Sword. As for the crews on the US tanks I seem to remember that about 22 were saved and the rest (33?) drowned.

Gary
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
6/7/2022 3:12:39 PM
I recall reading that during the developmental stages the DD tanks were tested on Scottish lakes but never taken out to sea to be tested in those conditions. If true, I wonder why they were not tested in the actual conditions that they would have to work. Security perhaps??

The DD tanks that made it to Juno Beach were well used and the infantry appreciated their support. However, there were losses on the "swim in" to the beach. I don't know whether the swamping of the DD tanks was anticipated but it seems that there were losses on all beaches whether from swamping as I mentioned or the destruction of the LCT's moving them into position.

It is most unfortunate for the US soldiers on Omaha that so many of their tanks did not make it to shore.

By contrast, "B" squadron of the 1st Hussars Regiment (Canada) managed to swim 14 of 19 tanks to shore.

Only 7 tanks of "A" squadron swam to shore but another 5 were landed from an LCT that had experienced ramp problems but brought the tanks in closer to shore to allow them to land. Good fortune for those tankers.

I can't find the data on "C" squadron but it was landed directly on the beach later than the other two squadrons.

These tanks made a difference to the Regina Rifles and the Winnipeg rifles as they penetrated Courseulles even though many tanks were taken out during the day by German forces. "A" squadron had 9 tanks left by the end of the day. "B" had four.


On another section of Juno Beach, the seas were too rough to launch the DD tanks and so the LCT came right into shore and the tanks landed on the sand. However, another LCT was hit by fire and sunk before the DD's could be launched.

This was such a different fighting environment to that experienced by the US soldiers on Omaha. The tanks proved their worth on Juno and I do wonder what the men in those tanks thought of their chances when they left the LCT.

Was it possible for the LCT's at Omaha to make it to the beach? Would the approaches have allowed for that?

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/8/2022 12:03:56 PM
Moving on to post 6-6 in history, check out June 7th, 8th, & search for new topics, & history! Comments??

6-7 these events!! Comments?

1494, Spain, & Portugal divide up the new world, nice of them to consult the Natives, & others??

1576 Martin Frobisher hunt for the NW Passageway! A search that will lead the British Empire's Explorers to multiple tragedies!? site any in particular? What say you??

1832 PM Charles Grey reforms British Parliament! Was this a good thing?? Anyone??

1970 English Novelist EM Forster passes away! Would you consider him a great author??

6-8 in history;

632 Muhammad the founder of Islam dies! Why does this religion conflict so much with Christianity?? What say you??

1191 Richard I, leads the 3rd Crusade, which side won most of the Crusades?? How did they shape modern history? What say you?

1966 the NFL, & AFL football leagues, merge! Hey the CFL starts the regular season this weekend! Go Argos! How will they do? Any favorites to win?! Comments??

2009 the UN hosts it's1st Oceans Day! Global warming is rising the Ocean levels recently! What land forms are currently threatened?? Do you see any way to stop these rising water levels?? Anyone?

Please post, &
Regards,
MD

BTW feel free to continue the great talks on D day!!??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Dick Evick
Waco TX USA
Posts: 390
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/8/2022 1:06:28 PM
On this date in 1949 George Orwell's novel 1984 was published. Required reading when I was in high school.

I wonder if it is still read today in public schools.

Are we close to Orwell's descriptions ? Whatcha think.

Dick.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
6/8/2022 3:02:24 PM
Quote:
On this date in 1949 George Orwell's novel 1984 was published. Required reading when I was in high school.

I wonder if it is still read today in public schools.

Are we close to Orwell's descriptions ? Whatcha think.

Dick.


I often wonder. Are we now slaves of technology that leads to behavioural changes? I don't think that there is a Big Brother, yet, who directs the news outlets to tell us what to think but certainly we have to be critical thinkers when it comes to the consumption of information. And certainly some dictators employ a Big Brother style of leadership in the form of massive posters that stare out at the people.

Are we being tracked by cameras and computers that can perform facial recognition? Maybe not here but I understand that the Chinese effectively track the movements of their people through facial recognition. Many of our streets in urban centres are equipped with surveillance cameras.

Our computers if properly equipped can perform simple changes to language by spell and grammar checking. And the technology exists to perform instant translations of languages.

Orwell predicted a continual state of war on earth. Are we there yet? Sometimes it seems so.


Some of our leaders now tell us not to believe what we see and hear in front of us. The use of the phrase "fake news" has many people refusing to believe what they read even if it comes from previously reliable sources.

Quote:
“What you are seeing and what you are reading, is not happening.”
. source: a former President of the US

Quote:
"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."

source: George Orwell, 1984


I don't think that most western countries have sunk to the level of the dystopian vision of George Orwell but most certainly there are some countries that are much closer.

Cheers,

George

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/8/2022 4:27:20 PM
Quote:
On this date in 1949 George Orwell's novel 1984 was published. Required reading when I was in high school.

I wonder if it is still read today in public schools.

Are we close to Orwell's descriptions ? Whatcha think.

Dick.


Uncomfortable resonance with our current geopolitical consolidation : Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia. I actually thought about 1984 when I contemplated the news over the last few months. It’s much too easy to embrace the dystopian vision, because we’re wired in to take alarm and jump at shadows, and in so doing overlook the phenomenal improvements in the lives of so much of humanity. But Orwell strikes home with me.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/8/2022 8:08:11 PM
Dick, George, Phil. I think we are closer than we dare consider to 1984.

An aspect I consider critical to the novel is Newspeak, and I don’t think it has been raised here. I see the western allies (that’s us, folks) as increasingly stripping our languages of nuance, subtlety and even meaning. We’re not yet at the point where “double plus ungood” will replace any idea deemed negative, I admit. But we have reached – hell, our politicians revel in it – replacing conversation with confrontation, disagreement with “fakeness”. Strip a language of its subtleties and you have a taken one of man’s most useful tools from him. More, I would argue it strips people of the social assurance of the meanings of abstracts which have defined at least Western culture since the Renaissance. And that, damn it, is happening now.

As to the rest, my iPhone opens by reading my face. It recognizes me with or without glasses, from various angles. Not, so far, with a face mask on. It’s presented as a convenience feature, and it is; it replaces my thumb print or a six digit code, both of which are slightly more cumbersome and/or time-consuming to implement. Whether Apple shares this scan with anyone else is anybody’s guess. Apple says “no”, but why assume Apple has control of their data?

I am told that the cameras on my home devices may indeed be registering data about my searches, my posts and my movements. I have four of them facing from my two desks, so they can get me in quadriphonic. Hell, Google does it just to sell us products. Who knows what unholy alliances Google has made with government? At most pubs now, TVs show news and sports. They’ve all got cameras too, or may have. Whose side do you think they’re on? Yours?

Dick, I don’t remember 1984 – or Animal Farm, or even Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World – being on the curriculum at BC schools. I don’t think they were banned; I just don’t remember them being even recommended texts. I think they were available, either in the school library or the local public library. And Canada never had to deal with an author like Lee Harper. I finally got around to reading To Kill a Mockingbird some two years ago, and enjoyed it thoroughly. I can see why it faced bans in parts of the US, and fear it may be again under fresh concerns about what sounds increasingly plusungood based on the ungood policies growing in the US right now.

I think these volumes are vital, but I would never make them compulsory. That is an action similar to banning them.

Should stop. This is a dynamic thread, after all.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/8/2022 8:49:32 PM
MD, I’m losing track of days, I admit.

You note the following under today’s date:Quote:
1970 English Novelist EM Forster passes away! Would you consider him a great author??

I think E.M Forster didn’t have a chance of being a great author. His mature vision as an author delivered some fine novels indeed, but they were considered old-fashioned at the time they were written. We was publishing at a time when D.H. Lawrence, Virginia Woolf and James Joyce were flourishing. He never stood a chance with the lit-crit crowd.

I remember reading Passage to India, and thinking at the time that this was demanding of serious attention. It was like reading an Anthony Trollope with some depth, or a more “serious” William Thackeray.

I will say, however, that there was nothing wrong, weak or limited with his imagination. I’ve talked before about his early gem, a short story/novella published in 1909. Yes, 1909. IMHO, it deserves reading.
[Read More]

This is a dystopian short work, and it pre-echoes from very different premises T.S. Eliot’s “Hollow Men”.

I would love to hear comments about The Machine Stops{/i].

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/8/2022 9:41:45 PM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for posting the link, The Machine Stops is a excellent science fiction short story! Maybe the Twilight Zone could do something with it??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
6/9/2022 3:08:50 AM
1934 : Donald Duck made his screen debut dancing to the Sailor’s Hornpipe.


Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
6/9/2022 6:24:57 PM
Hey guys,

6-8 in history; btw how long after 6-6-1944, did it take the Allies to secure the Normandy beaches? Anyone?

632 Muhammad the founder of Islam dies! Why does this religion conflict so much with Christianity?? What say you??

1191 Richard I, leads the 3rd Crusade, which side won most of the Crusades?? How did they shape modern history? What say you?

1966 the NFL, & AFL football leagues, merge! Hey the CFL starts the regular season this weekend! Go Argos! How will they do? Any favorites to win?! Comments??

2009 the UN hosts it's1st Oceans Day! Global warming is rising the Ocean levels recently! What land forms are currently threatened?? Do you see any way to stop these rising water levels?? Anyone?

Any new topics for today, or tomorrow??

Please post, &
Regards,
MD

BTW feel free to continue the great talks on D day!!??

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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