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scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
7/13/2022 6:42:42 AM
Quote:

Britain was a great colonial power, an imperial power and it has gradually divested itself of these colonies, allowing many to declare independence.


Cheers,George



"allowing many to declare independence"

How gracious of them. I am reminded of one of my dad´s jokes. What´s the British equivalent of the Nobel peace prize ? The OBJ - Occupant of a British Jail. The list of the world´s statesmen who had this award is amazing. They fought tooth and nail, and often brutally, to keep it only giving up when they had to.

It is part of this myth-making that has led to the dire situation we are in.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/13/2022 6:52:27 AM
Quote:
George, isn’t there a rather cynical saying that, if a soldier lived through an act of great bravery he should not be deemed eligible for the VC? I’ve never seen that written down, but I’ve heard it mentioned on numerous occasions.


Yes it does seem that many of the VC's awarded have been awarded posthumously. And I was also under the impression that dying while performing extraordinarily brave deeds seemed to be an unwritten criterion when a recommendation to receive the award was filed.

But data published by the Imperial War Museum seems to indicate otherwise.

Posthumous awards of the VC only began in 1902 and since that time 295 posthumous VC's have been awarded. So the greater number of VC's have been awarded to people who survived the combat experience.

[Read More]


To MD: To be awarded a VC, the act of bravery must be witnessed by several people. I know of only one occasion in which the word of the combatant was sufficient to convince those investigating that the award of the VC was in order. And that was the VC awarded to the great WW1 flyer from Canada, William (Billy) Bishop. Bishop was on a solo mission over German territory and he attacked an air field and strafed aircraft on the ground. Four German planes were getting ready to intercept him and he took on each one and disabled or shot them down. Out of ammo he was tailed by four other German aircraft who decided not to engage with Bishop.

The fact that Bishop was the sole witness to his action caused great debate as to whether he was worthy. There were suggestions that he had embellished his feats in his books that he wrote about the war. But those that he fought with pointed to his combat reports that were detailed and professionally written. Canada sometimes takes great pains to diminish its heroes.

We do know that the man had already been awarded the DSO and the MC before the action that lead to his VC. He would receive a bar to his DSO months after the VC action for other acts of bravery. And he was awarded a DFC, and from France, a Croix de Guerre avec Palmes. He finished with 72 victories.

The point is however that his feats that resulted in a VC award were not witnessed except by the recipient. That was unusual and I may only surmise that his reputation for bravery and skill had already been established prior to the event.


I know of one other VC that was awarded to John Foote who was the Padre of the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry but not until the war had ended and reports of his bravery on the beaches of Dieppe filtered into the authorities. Foote had landed under enemy fire and began to assist at the RAP, tending to the wounded. When the order to withdraw was given, Foote carried wounded men on his back to any boats that were available to evacuate. Foote made multiple trips under fire and then refused to hop onto one of the last boats. He said that the men would need him in the POW camps. There were even reports that Foote had taken up a weapon to engage in suppressing fire while men attempted to get to the boats. That was never fully corroborated though.

Foote didn't get his VC until 1946, well after he had been released from a POW camp. Reports had begun to come in that attested to the bravery of this regimental chaplain and that was what lead to the VC award. The men that he had saved and those that were POW with him attested to his bravery.

Cheers,

George

EDIT: I found another article regarding the VC it indicates that in the 1960's, the British Ministry of Defence suggested that, as a rule of thumb, "a VC should only be awarded when there was a 90 per cent possibility of the recipient being killed while performing the deed in question." So it seems that the probability of the demise of the prospective VC winner is on the minds of the decision makers.

[Read More]
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/13/2022 9:13:33 AM
Quote:
Quote:

Britain was a great colonial power, an imperial power and it has gradually divested itself of these colonies, allowing many to declare independence.


Cheers,George



"allowing many to declare independence"

How gracious of them. I am reminded of one of my dad´s jokes. What´s the British equivalent of the Nobel peace prize ? The OBJ - Occupant of a British Jail. The list of the world´s statesmen who had this award is amazing. They fought tooth and nail, and often brutally, to keep it only giving up when they had to.

It is part of this myth-making that has led to the dire situation we are in.

Trevor



Thanks for that reminder, Trevor. I guess that my statement reflected my frame of reference as a person from one of the "white" Dominions who negotiated or perhaps evolved to a position of independence. My statement was dismissive of those colonists who had to fight for their independence.

Cheers,

George

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/13/2022 9:33:24 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Guys,

7-11 events, not yet commented on??

1804, The duel between Aaron Burr & Alexander Hamilton ends in the death of Alexander Hamilton, yes the guy on US currency! What away to settle disputes!? I hear that Andrew Jackson may have been involved in over 100 duels!?
Even Mark Twain got invoved! Any good websites on the history of dueling?? What say you about this barbaric behavior? & they called themselves gentlemen!? What say you gentlemen!!??

1863 the New York Draft Riots occurred were they about the draft or racially motivated? Any websites or comments on it?? Anyone?

1914 Babe Ruth played his 1st game, was it a lively era to hit homers? What say you?? I recently visited Cooperstown, it was really cool! Anyone else visit it? Comments on the Babe!? Anyone?

MD



Thanks for not shooting down USAF fighters over Canadian air space!

7-12 in history includes,

1543 Henry VIII marries his final wife Catherine Parr! Gee Henry should have gone for eight, like his title!? Comment?

1862 US Institutes it's famous "medal of honor" do other countries have something similar!?? What say you?? Thanks Brian, & George for great responses on this topic!!!!!!!

1920 Lithuania beats the Russians, in warfare! Say what?? Anyone?

1979 the Chicago White Sox have a demolition of disco records promo on their BB field! Badly damaging it, so my Detroit Tigers were given a forfeit victory!? These days the Tigs will take a victory anyway we can get it!? BTW did you hate disco too??

Checking 7-13 in history here's a few! Comments??

1713 A treaty giving Gibraltar to Great Britain! What a mistake by Spain!? They will never get it back!! What say you about The Rock! Anyone have how this occurred???

1787 The NW Ordinance is Instituted, did they even consider what would become British Canada!! Unfair? Anyone??

1861 Gen George B McClellan wins in what's now West Virginia! How did WV break off from Virginia!? & did this victory propelled Mac to be the top Union General?? What say you??

comments on these & other old & new topics!?
Lets go disco!! 😎
MD


BTW George great website on the Victoria Crosses!!!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
7/13/2022 1:05:02 PM
George said:

Quote:
Quote:

Britain was a great colonial power, an imperial power and it has gradually divested itself of these colonies, allowing many to declare independence.


Cheers,George



"allowing many to declare independence"

How gracious of them. I am reminded of one of my dad´s jokes. What´s the British equivalent of the Nobel peace prize ? The OBJ - Occupant of a British Jail. The list of the world´s statesmen who had this award is amazing. They fought tooth and nail, and often brutally, to keep it only giving up when they had to.

It is part of this myth-making that has led to the dire situation we are in.

Trevor



Thanks for that reminder, Trevor. I guess that my statement reflected my frame of reference as a person from one of the "white" Dominions who negotiated or perhaps evolved to a position of independence. My statement was dismissive of those colonists who had to fight for their independence.

Cheers,

George

George
Hi George & Trevor,

The white dominions had it relatively easy, in hindsight. They were encouraged to seek self government as soon as possible, ultimately to reduce the costs of garrisoning and defending these areas.  Raising local forces for defence proved much cheaper than sending salaried regiments to sit idly in barracks where they weren’t needed, especially after the native peoples of Canada, South Africa, NZ and Australia had been subjugated.

Compare also the colonial experience if you were white but weren’t descended from the British Isles; the Boers were chased across South Africa for their mineral and agricultural wealth. Britain defeated the Boers but allowed them to continue their racial apartheid as long as the gold and diamonds kept being hacked out of the ground.

Black Africans and Indians also don’t look fondly on the Imperial legacy - revolts and resistance were brutally put down up until the London Exchequer emptied after funding two world wars. The infrastructure installed by UK regimes was for the benefit of the efforts of economic exploitation, not the native people of these territories. 

The UK owes a great moral and financial debt to the countries we exploited and it’s high time the descendants of the beneficiaries of empire paid up. Streets named after slavers and traders of empire should be acknowledged with plaques as to where the wealth came from to build the grand houses that decorate the cities across the UK. It’s no use renaming them, that simply hides the truth. As to inherited wealth, that’s what should be used to pay reparations, not the taxes of working people in the UK whose ancestors, by and large, suffered under the industrial revolution as much as those under colonial rule.

Cheers,

Colin

----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/13/2022 7:27:31 PM
Colin,

The British historian David Olusoga has provided us with some rather startling revelations about the abolition of slavery in the British Empire and its financial ramifications.

The slave owners were compensated, and the records of the people who were paid show that the vast preponderance of the compensation package was paid out to a few very rich people.

What the records show, however, is that a surprisingly large number of much poorer people in Britain also had a stake in slaveholding : tradesmen, artisans and low grade clerks might discover that they owned a slave, and received their due.

Imagine how complex and contentious reparations would become !

A black freedman might have possessed his own slaves and been likewise compensated.

The mind boggles.

Regards, Phil

----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/13/2022 7:51:05 PM
Phil, some interesting points, which only a crass colonial like me might want to question.

I’m not sure of the ethics of compensating slave owners for being deprived of their slaves, but obviously British law saw the need for just compensation. Question: what compensation did the slaves receive when they were declared individuals rather than chattels? Free men rather than property? I mean, what kind of compensation do you offer a person who has been stripped of identity, history, values, language, belief system, family or clan? I’m not saying your post doesn’t raise some important or even awkward issues. But …

I assume we both know that Colin’s post goes far beyond issues of compensation. And I will admit I fully concur with Colin’s arguments, except where in places I would go further. I just lost a long post concerning Colin’s commentary on the HMO2 test forum. Don’t know why. But I think I have issues to deal with that demand I try to recreate that comment.

Cheers,
Brian G.
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/13/2022 8:33:52 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Guys,

7-11 events, not yet commented on??

1804, The duel between Aaron Burr & Alexander Hamilton ends in the death of Alexander Hamilton, yes the guy on US currency! What away to settle disputes!? I hear that Andrew Jackson may have been involved in over 100 duels!?
Even Mark Twain got invoved! Any good websites on the history of dueling?? What say you about this barbaric behavior? & they called themselves gentlemen!? What say you gentlemen!!??

1863 the New York Draft Riots occurred were they about the draft or racially motivated? Any websites or comments on it?? Anyone?

1914 Babe Ruth played his 1st game, was it a lively era to hit homers? What say you?? I recently visited Cooperstown, it was really cool! Anyone else visit it? Comments on the Babe!? Anyone?

MD



Thanks for not shooting down USAF fighters over Canadian air space!

7-12 in history includes,

1543 Henry VIII marries his final wife Catherine Parr! Gee Henry should have gone for eight, like his title!? Comment?

1862 US Institutes it's famous "medal of honor" do other countries have something similar!?? What say you?? Thanks Brian, & George for great responses on this topic!!!!!!!

1920 Lithuania beats the Russians, in warfare! Say what?? Anyone?

1979 the Chicago White Sox have a demolition of disco records promo on their BB field! Badly damaging it, so my Detroit Tigers were given a forfeit victory!? These days the Tigs will take a victory anyway we can get it!? BTW did you hate disco too??

Checking 7-13 in history here's a few! Comments??

1713 A treaty giving Gibraltar to Great Britain! What a mistake by Spain!? They will never get it back!! What say you about The Rock! Anyone have how this occurred???

1787 The NW Ordinance is Instituted, did they even consider what would become British Canada!! Unfair? Anyone??

1861 Gen George B McClellan wins in what's now West Virginia! How did WV break off from Virginia!? & did this victory propelled Mac to be the top Union General?? What say you??

comments on these & other old & new topics!?
Lets go disco!! 😎
MD


BTW George great website on the Victoria Crosses!!!!

See above for some undiscussed topics!??

Also carry on with your current discussion, fascinating stuff!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/14/2022 9:10:43 AM
Also, 7-14-1969, the movie Easy Rider comes out! What classic, born to be wild, at the end the 2 main characters were blown away by today what we would call red necks!? Any comments on what this counter culture movie's message was?? What say you??? Any of that message true today?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/15/2022 2:57:35 AM
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end ?

To be stuck inside of Mobile

With the Memphis Blues again !



That Bob Dylan dirge kept running through my mind, as if I was striving to revisit my adolescence.

Curious to investigate the provenance of Memphis Blues, I’ve just found out that the musician WC Handy pitched the first recording of this composition on 15 July 1914.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/15/2022 3:14:53 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Guys,

7-11 events, not yet commented on??

1804, The duel between Aaron Burr & Alexander Hamilton ends in the death of Alexander Hamilton, yes the guy on US currency! What away to settle disputes!? I hear that Andrew Jackson may have been involved in over 100 duels!?
Even Mark Twain got invoved! Any good websites on the history of dueling?? What say you about this barbaric behavior? & they called themselves gentlemen!? What say you gentlemen!!??

1863 the New York Draft Riots occurred were they about the draft or racially motivated? Any websites or comments on it?? Anyone?

1914 Babe Ruth played his 1st game, was it a lively era to hit homers? What say you?? I recently visited Cooperstown, it was really cool! Anyone else visit it? Comments on the Babe!? Anyone?

MD



Thanks for not shooting down USAF fighters over Canadian air space!

7-12 in history includes,

1543 Henry VIII marries his final wife Catherine Parr! Gee Henry should have gone for eight, like his title!? Comment?

1862 US Institutes it's famous "medal of honor" do other countries have something similar!?? What say you?? Thanks Brian, & George for great responses on this topic!!!!!!!

1920 Lithuania beats the Russians, in warfare! Say what?? Anyone?

1979 the Chicago White Sox have a demolition of disco records promo on their BB field! Badly damaging it, so my Detroit Tigers were given a forfeit victory!? These days the Tigs will take a victory anyway we can get it!? BTW did you hate disco too??

Checking 7-13 in history here's a few! Comments??

1713 A treaty giving Gibraltar to Great Britain! What a mistake by Spain!? They will never get it back!! What say you about The Rock! Anyone have how this occurred???

1787 The NW Ordinance is Instituted, did they even consider what would become British Canada!! Unfair? Anyone??

1861 Gen George B McClellan wins in what's now West Virginia! How did WV break off from Virginia!? & did this victory propelled Mac to be the top Union General?? What say you??

comments on these & other old & new topics!?
Lets go disco!! 😎
MD


BTW George great website on the Victoria Crosses!!!!

See above for some undiscussed topics!?? Where is everyone??

7-14, 7-15, & 7-16 any new topics? Gee 3 days there has to be something we missed???

Also carry on with your current discussion, fascinating stuff!!


Phil good post on Bob Dylan & his Minnesota Civil War connection!

D
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/15/2022 4:17:19 PM
Quote:
1787 The NW Ordinance is Instituted, did they even consider what would become British Canada!! Unfair? Anyone??


The Northwest Ordinance established the first incorporated territory of the new country of the US. Britain had ceded that land in the peace agreement that ended the revolutionary war. Not that they left quickly though. There were still many British soldiers occupying forts in the territory.

The ordinance created a pathway to possible statehood in the territory and guaranteed that any new state would have equal status to the original thirteen. Since the British agreed to the boundaries established in the Treaty of Paris, then I would assume that the US acknowledged the existence of other British colonies in North America.

The United States and British North America after Treaty of Paris in 1783



We note that there was still a good deal of unclaimed land beyond the new US boundary and that the US in 1783 was much smaller than it is today. There would be further competition for that available land in the future.

The real losers were the First Nations. Parts of the new Northwest Territory were intended to be Indian land under British rule and this was something that the colonists of the 13 colonies could not abide. It was one of the reasons that they went to war. The British Royal Proclamation of 1763 had guaranteed First Nations' land rights in parts of what would be the Northwest Territory. Those rights died with the Treaty of Paris, twenty years later.

The Treaty of Paris of 1783 made no mention of the status of the First Nations nor did it allude to their futures. Some British officers were embarrassed and ashamed that their government appeared to have abandoned the First Nations. And the FN's were angry with Britain because they had lost the land promised to them. They continued to fight for this land as Americans began to flood the new territory. Many FN's headed north to Canada and to this day the Royal Proclamation of 1763 is still quoted by FN groups when discussions of treaty obligations arise.

The treaty of Paris was somewhat ineffective. Britain continued to man forts in the territory until Jay's Treaty in 1794 was negotiated. Britain also denied the US access to the St. Lawrence after the Treaty of Paris. EDIT: source: Canadian Encyclopaedia

As for the US, it did not live up to commitments to the Loyalists, many of whom lost everything or were abused by Americans and had to leave. Many came to Canada, or to the Caribbean or to the UK.

Cheers,

George


EDIT: In this post I alluded to the Royal Proclamation of 1763 that would have acknowledged the legitimacy of treaties with the First Nations in the Ohio Valley had the rebellion by the 13 colonies not occurred I said that this proclamation is still in effect today, in Canada.

Our constitution which includes the Charter of Rights and Freedoms contains a section (sec. 25) that states that the Charter rights may not be used to alter any treaty agreements made with the British crown or the Canadian government.

Quote:
Section 25 – Aboriginal and treaty rights

Provision
25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including:

any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and
any rights or freedoms that now exist by way of land claim agreements or may be so acquired.


And so this Royal Proclamation of the British Crown compels Canada to honour treaty rights negotiated with the British Crown even if those rights could be challenged under the constitution. As mentioned, when conflicts arise over treaty land rights, the FN will point to Sec. 25 but I understand that there is much legal wrangling over the importance of this proclamation and that the Supreme Court of Canada has yet to have had to rule on any major challenge pertaining to the Proclamation.

Lastly, the Proclamation of 1763 has been referred to as the "Indian Magna Carta" or the "Indian Bill of Rights".
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/16/2022 10:16:39 AM
Hi George,

Great map, it's hard to believe that the US was the smallest area wise back then??

Boy did that change!?
But Canada is still bigger
(area wise) even today!?
Thanks,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
7/17/2022 7:48:04 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

Great map, it's hard to believe that the US was the smallest area wise back then??

Boy did that change!?
But Canada is still bigger
(area wise) even today!?
Thanks,
MD

From this side of the Mississippi it still looks small.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/17/2022 12:18:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi George,

Great map, it's hard to believe that the US was the smallest area wise back then??

Boy did that change!?
But Canada is still bigger
(area wise) even today!?
Thanks,
MD

From this side of the Mississippi it still looks small.



Speaking of the Mississippi River, the Treaty of Paris of 1783 granted both nations access to the river for navigational purposes.

Now Spain which claimed most of the land that would be included in the Louisiana Purchase actually closed the river to US navigation in 1784. I have forgotten how that conflict was resolved but my question is, when did Great Britain lose access to the Mississippi River?

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/17/2022 9:15:33 PM
Hi George

I know that Canada has several streams that flow into the snake river which flows into the Missouri, & then into the Mississippi!? I read a story on some Canadians that took a Canoe all the way from Canada to New Orleans into the Gulf & beyond!?

Checking 7-18 in history, events were evident! Comments anyone??

1453 France wins the last battle of the 100 years war! Who won the war?? Comments??

1763 John Jacob Astor was born! What's he noted for?? What say you??

1862 Abraham Lincoln passes a bill that leads to the Emancipation Proclamation!? Abe was a great president!? Where would you rate him??

1918 the Carpathian is sunk by a U-boat, this ship rescued Titanic survivors comments on it? Anyone??

1918 Russian Tsar Nicolas II & Family killed by the Communists! Why??

1944, General Erwin Rommel almost killed by the RAF! What happened? Anyone??

1945 Big 3 meet at Potsdam! What resulted?? Comments anyone??

1998 the UN forms an international criminal court, is it effective!?? What say you??

Carry on!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/17/2022 10:22:07 PM
MD, my calendar still reads 17 July. I guess you’re trying to offer targets for tomorrow!

Today marks the 1936 uprising of Nationalist rebels against the relatively extreme socialist Republican government of Spain, which would become the Spanish Civil War, lasting until early 1939, when General Fransisco Franco and his Falangists would defeat the Republican forces and establish a dictatorship which would last until his death in 1975.

In itself, the war was specifically Spanish. The core forces reflected the traditional religious/social class hierarchy against a radical Socialist government attempting to disrupt the power of the aristocracy, undermine the power of the Catholic Church, and break the traditional controls over lands and workers.

It was, of course, much more. I became a conflict supported by Italy and Germany on the Nationalist (Loyalist) side and the Soviet Union on the Republican side. Western European democracies (and New World countries such as Canada and the US) argued official neutrality, which was another term for either fear or appeasement. Citizens of various European and other countries made their own decisions, and joined International Brigades to fight Fascism.

In effect, the SCW became a test-bed for weapons which would play major roles in the early years of WW2. In particular, this was a proving ground for Germany’s Luftwaffe. Think Guernica. On a very different issue, it became the laboratory for highly efficient field hospitals, and a test ground for sterile medical procedures and the application of early medicines which had been developed since 1918.

Franco was, IMHO, a sonofabitch. I spent some weeks in Spain in 1960, when he was still in power. But he was his own man. Despite the support he received from Germany, he rejected German requests to assault Gibraltar, and remained to a large extent a non-combatant (except for volunteer troops which fought largely on the Eastern Front, against Franco and Hitler’s mutual enemy, the Communists.

Could add more, but better sign off now.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 6:14:28 AM
Massive turning point today in 1918.

The great series of German offensives culminated in what we call the Second Battle of the Marne, and on 18 July the French , along with significant US, British and Italian support, launched a big counter attack that marked the beginning of the end for Germany.

Note how close this was to the Armistice : unlike WW2, the earlier conflict retained its close and uncertain course until the last four of its fifty one month duration , and even then things looked a bit dicey : the British commemorate 8 August as the big day, but I opine that the mid July Allied resurgence was an even more portentous event.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 9:20:58 AM
Quote:
Hi George

I know that Canada has several streams that flow into the snake river which flows into the Missouri, & then into the Mississippi!? I read a story on some Canadians that took a Canoe all the way from Canada to New Orleans into the Gulf & beyond!?

Checking 7-17 in history, events were evident! Comments anyone??

1453 France wins the last battle of the 100 years war! Who won the war?? Comments??

1763 John Jacob Astor was born! What's he noted for?? What say you??

1862 Abraham Lincoln passes a bill that leads to the Emancipation Proclamation!? Abe was a great president!? Where would you rate him??

1918 the Carpathian is sunk by a U-boat, this ship rescued Titanic survivors comments on it? Anyone??

1918 Russian Tsar Nicolas II & Family killed by the Communists! Why??

1944, General Erwin Rommel almost killed by the RAF! What happened? Anyone??

1945 Big 3 meet at Potsdam! What resulted?? Comments anyone??

1998 the UN forms an international criminal court, is it effective!?? What say you??

Carry on!
MD


Hi Brian,

I put the wrong date the 18th, it really was the 17th! Lately I have been using Encyclopedia Britannica, their daily history, So check it out!! Thanks for the correction! ☺. D.
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 9:37:11 AM
Quote:
Massive turning point today in 1918.

The great series of German offensives culminated in what we call the Second Battle of the Marne, and on 18 July the French , along with significant US, British and Italian support, launched a big counter attack that marked the beginning of the end for Germany.

Note how close this was to the Armistice : unlike WW2, the earlier conflict retained its close and uncertain course until the last four of its fifty one month duration , and even then things looked a bit dicey : the British commemorate 8 August as the big day, but I opine that the mid July Allied resurgence was an even more portentous event.

Regards, Phil




Hi Phil,

In Michigan we have a town "Marne", named after the battle, just after WWI it was named Marne! Ironically prior to that the town was called Berlin!?

Regards,
MD

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 10:29:46 AM
Understandable, to a degree : maybe during and after the war there was a desire to repudiate things attributable to, and associated with, German culture.

Does Michigan have a large number of people of German ancestry ?

A lot of German and Scandinavian immigrants settled in the mid West, didn’t they ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 12:09:52 PM
Apparently German-Americans are the largest of the ancestry groups reported on the US census. 49 million people claim German ancestry and that is about 17% of the population.

In Michigan, 22% of the state's population claim German ancestry.

My son had a girlfriend of German descent and she decided that a trip to Michigan was in order because she wanted to see the most German city in the US, Frankenmuth, Michigan. My son told me that the focus of the tourist business is on the creation of a "German" experience. I hope that that means good German beer and I don't mean Budweiser.



MD's post indicated that Michigan has a town named Marne that was formerly known as Berlin.

My province of Ontario also had a Berlin but anti-German sentiment lead to a name change in 1916, to Kitchener. A bust of Kaiser Wilhelm 1 was removed from its pedestal and tossed into a local lake called Lake Victoria.

Shipped from Germany



And dumped in Lake Victoria. Love the swim suits.



During WWII, there were some Nazi sympathizers in Canada and in the US but I believe that the greater number of German-Americans or German-Canadians were opposed to the Nazi ideology.

The US did have internment camps in WWI and WWII for Germans for whom they had concerns. The US interned about 11,000 people and most were not US citizens but German nationals living in the US.

Canada interned about 8,000 people of German descent during WW1. There was some reason for suspicion. As soon as Britain declared war on Germany, there was a rush of people of German or Austrian descent on the consulates of Austria and Germany. They were seeking information about mobilization plans. These people were interned and forced to stay in Canada.

Thousands more were forced to register so that the authorities knew where they were. Very tense times.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 1:27:52 PM
Quote:
Understandable, to a degree : maybe during and after the war there was a desire to repudiate things attributable to, and associated with, German culture.

Does Michigan have a large number of people of German ancestry ?

A lot of German and Scandinavian immigrants settled in the mid West, didn’t they ?

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil, & George,

As George points out a fairly large portion of our population has German ancestors, (25-30%) also during WWII Michigan had 32 Prisoners of war camps, housing mostly Germans! Over 6000 pows, A few right here near my area in West Michigan! I have been to Frankenmuth several times, & yes George it has some good German like breweries, German Restaurants & the Worlds largest Christmas Store!?

Come & visit some time!?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 6:25:40 PM
Quote:
I hope that that means good German beer and I don't mean Budweiser.


Cheers,George


But George, Budweisser isn´t German. It is Czech. From the town of Budvar ( german Budweisser ). Of course the original tastes very different from the horse piss the Americans made out of it.

And Frankenmuth looks more Bavarian/Franconian than German. Indeed the german name for Franconia is "Franken".

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 7:19:19 PM
Quote:
1918 Russian Tsar Nicolas II & Family killed by the Communists! Why??


Realpolitik. After the Tsar abdicated the Bolsheviks agreed to the wish of the Tsar and family to go into exile in Great Britain. For some reason the British changed their minds and refused the request. In summer 1918 the Bolsheviks were in dire straits as the diverse White armies were closing in. The Bolsheviks knew that it was only the desire to restore the monarchy that kept the diverse factions of the White Forces together. Simple solution. There could be no return to a monarchy. The white coalition fell into it´s conflicting factions.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 8:13:28 PM
Right then Trevor. Thanks for clearing up the origin of Budweiser. I have had the odd Czech beer (Kozel, I think it was) which was very good and it tastes nothing like "Bud" which is pretty tasteless stuff.

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/18/2022 9:07:02 PM
On this day in 1925, the first volume of Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf was published. The second volume would follow two years later. IIUC, most editions of Mein Kampf were abridged until some years after the Nazis gained power.

It is common knowledge that Mein Kampf became the secular bible of the NSDAP, being presented as a gift from the Party after certain rites, and being expected to occupy a prominent place in home, office and official places. Rather less commonly known, perhaps, is that Hitler’s wealth stemmed largely from royalties due to his authorship of the rather vile bit of all-but-unreadable nonsense.

I have a 1939 copy, sitting with Mao’s Little Red Book, Lenin’s The State and Revolution and some Marx, some Marx and Engels, more Trotsky than I ever remember buying, and some good samples of testimonies from some great anarchists. I don’t regret reading (or in some cases, trying to read) any of them.

Cheers
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/19/2022 8:38:58 PM



Hi Brian

Here you are talking about Hitler, & Mein Kampf, Mao, & the little red book, & Marx & the Russian Revolution and all day your post is sitting at 666 replies! That's the devil's number! Don't know why? 666? Anyone??

MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2022 10:28:04 AM
Sorry Brian

My post was a little vague, I just noticed the replies were stuck on 666, & was curious why 666 is considered the devil's number?? Also noticing that your last post was about 3 evil leaders, at least from a western perspective!? No
harm meant!??

Anyway on 7-20 A few of events of note occurred!? Perhaps you have some others??

1877 the Russo Turkish War is in full swing! Who won?? Anyone?

1917 Yugoslavia becomes a nation, how long did this last? Did it eventually break up?? Anyone??

1944 July plot of the assassination attempt on Hitler! How many times did Adolph dodge the bullet?? Anyone?

1969 of course the big event was the 1st manned landing on the moon! Most people remember where they were, & their thought!? Anyone? Also a few think it was a hoax!? What say you??

Regards,
MD

BTW how hot has your summer been??

Also from today in Canadian history, the following! Comments George, Brian, or MHO!???

1773 the Scots arrived big time in Nova Scotia! Comments??

1871 British Columbia joins the Canadian Confederation!!?? How & why, Bri.?? George?

1944 Canadian troops taking Important strategic hills in Normandy, great soldiering!? Any details on these victories??

2005 Canada becomes the 4th country to legalize same sex marriages!? Is Canada overall a liberal country?? What say you??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2022 8:44:25 PM
MD asks: Quote:
1944 July plot of the assassination attempt on Hitler! How many times did Adolph dodge the bullet?? Anyone?


Here is a quick summary of the six best-known and/or documented attempts:
[Read More]

I am certain there were other plots; there are even conspiracy theories suggesting Hitler was assassinated before the attempt by von Trescow in 1943, and that an imposter hoodwinked all but a few trusted minions and let Germany to disaster with ill-chosen commands.

Of all the noted attempts (von Stauffenberg’s excepted), I’m most intrigued by Georg Elser’s attempt at the beer-cellar shrine to Nazism, on 8 Nov 1939. Who’d have thought Hitler would break a 15-year tradition and shorten his speech to his old comrades?

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2022 10:30:45 PM
MD notes: Quote:
1969 of course the big event was the 1st manned landing on the moon! Most people remember where they were, & their thought!? Anyone? Also a few think it was a hoax!? What say you?

I was a graduate student in Ontario, living in the top half of a Quonset Hut over an artisanal pottery. My wife and I watched the event on a 12” B/W TV. We used the set’s antenna to capture the signal – we were living rather remotely – so I probably saw whatever coverage CBC Toronto broadcast. I remember too cuddling our first-born between us, knowing she would not remember it but feeling that we might cheat her by letting her sleep.

Thoughts at the moment? That Armstrong’s first words must have been garbled somehow. I thought them about the lamest comment possible, right up there with with the worst of FDR.

The event itself, however, was (and remains) hard to classify. Part of me believes that Yuri Gagarin’s orbital flights were more significant, and that the moon landing was significant not as a human endeavour but as a US success story over USSR. Another part believes that any human step on truly alien soil must be earth-shaking.

I think the current NASA program to return to the moon is a mistake. Once might indicate discovery and adventure; twice hints at misdirection and potential exploitation.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2022 10:32:31 PM
MD notes: Quote:
1969 of course the big event was the 1st manned landing on the moon! Most people remember where they were, & their thought!? Anyone? Also a few think it was a hoax!? What say you?

I was a graduate student in Ontario, living in the top half of a Quonset Hut over an artisanal pottery. My wife and I watched the event on a 12” B/W TV. We used the set’s antenna to capture the signal – we were living rather remotely – so I probably saw whatever coverage CBC Toronto broadcast. I remember too cuddling our first-born between us, knowing she would not remember it but feeling that we might cheat her by letting her sleep.

Thoughts at the moment? That Armstrong’s first words must have been garbled somehow. I thought them about the lamest comment possible, right up there with with the worst of FDR.

The event itself, however, was (and remains) hard to classify. Part of me believes that Yuri Gagarin’s orbital flights were more significant, and that the moon landing was significant not as a human endeavour but as a US success story over USSR. Another part believes that any human step on truly alien soil must be earth-shaking.

I think the current NASA program to return to the moon is a mistake. Once might indicate discovery and adventure; twice hints at misdirection and potential exploitation.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2022 11:47:56 AM
Quote:

Hi guys,

Any more comments on these??

Anyway on 7-20 A few of events of note occurred!? Perhaps you have some others??

1877 the Russo Turkish War is in full swing! Who won?? Anyone?

1917 Yugoslavia becomes a nation, how long did this last? Did it eventually break up?? Anyone??

1944 July plot of the assassination attempt on Hitler! How many times did Adolph dodge the bullet?? Anyone?

1969 of course the big event was the 1st manned landing on the moon! Most people remember where they were, & their thought!? Anyone? Also a few think it was a hoax!? What say you??

Regards,
MD

BTW how hot has your summer been??

Also from today in Canadian history, the following! Comments George, Brian, or MHO!???

1773 the Scots arrived big time in Nova Scotia! Comments??

1871 British Columbia joins the Canadian Confederation!!?? How & why, Bri.?? George?

1944 Canadian troops taking Important strategic hills in Normandy, great soldiering!? Any details on these victories??

2005 Canada becomes the 4th country to legalize same sex marriages!? Is Canada overall a liberal country?? What say you??



7-21 in history,

1861 the 1 st battle of Bull Run, can you say picnic!??

1899 Ernest Hemingway was born! Interesting author, where would you rate him? Why did he commit suicide?? What say you about Ernest & his legacy!?? Comments, anyone??

1925 the courts rule the teaching of Evolution is outlawed!? Do you see the courts even today backing religious minorities, points of view?? Comments?

2011 NASA ends the Shuttle program! Why? & was it a success?? What say you?

Bring it on!?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2022 1:33:40 PM
Recently we have been discussing how the Canadian US borders were established!? Lately I have been researching Isle Royale in Lake Superior, & even though it's only 15 miles from Ontario, & its pushing 60 miles to Michigan, It's Michigan territory!?? How did this happen? What say you?? Fair!!??

Who decided this travesty!!!???
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2022 3:02:01 PM
Isle Royale, MI

Parts of the US/British North America border were decided during negotiations for the 1783 treaty.

Unfortunately for BNA, the 1755 map that was used was created by a somewhat amateur cartographer who incorrectly placed two islands in the northwest part of Lake Superior. Isle Royale was one of them.

The Pigeon River is at the far west end of Lake Superior and it became the dividing line between BNA and the US. If the line from the Pigeon River had been extended into the lake properly, it would have cut into Isle Royale with most of it closer to BNA. The other island called Ile Phillipeaux was further south. Usually in an "either-or" proposition, the north island would have become part of BNA with the south island becoming part of the US.

But the map didn't show the islands in the correct position and the negotiators decided that they were closer to the US.

How Michigan got this island, I do not know. It's actually closer to Minnesota or Ontario than it is to Michigan.

Here is a modern map. The international border jogs to the north of Isle Royale. You can see that once the land border entered the lake, it should have hit the southern tip of Isle Royale and should have jogged just to the south of it and then brought back to the "natural division" of the lake.

We may only conclude then that Isle Royale is really sovereign Canadian territory.



Does anyone know why this island is named using a combination of English and French spelling? "Isle" is English. "Île" would be French. "Royale" is French while "Royal" would be English. Just wondering.



Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2022 3:24:02 PM
Quote:
1944 Canadian troops taking Important strategic hills in Normandy, great soldiering!? Any details on these victories??


If we are talking about the July 18-20, 1944 period then we are addressing Operation Goodwood and the Canadian part of that operation called Operation Atlantic. These operations were part of an extended period of effort to seize Caen which proved to be a tough nut to crack for the British and Canadians.

Goodwood was a massive tank battle with the objective to expand the Orne River bridgehead and to seize the remaining German held areas of Caen.

The British had to squeeze many tanks through a narrow bridgehead and Goodwood is considered to be controversial because it did not fully achieve the desired effect because there were far too few infantry men available to work in conjunction with the tanks. Monty would not normally fight a "tanks only" battle but he was under pressure to get moving toward Bourgébus Ridge. He would have preferred to wait for replacement infantry but those men were not available at the time that Goodwood began. With British and Canadian casualties at over 35,000 to that date in the Normandy battles, it would be a while before units were up to strength.

As well, Monty felt the need to support the upcoming US operation called Cobra by engaging the Germans to the south and west of Caen.

Goodwood is usually painted as a failed operation though the end result was that the Germans fortified their positions on Bourgébus and Verrières Ridges.

The Canadian part of the battle, Op. Atlantic did see the Canadians push the Germans out of the suburbs in the south of Caen. But they too were stymied at Verrières Ridge which would, in few days, prove to be one of the more costly battles of the war for the Canadians. The ridges were solid defensive positions and the British and Canadians paid a heavy price to push the Germans off and send them to the south of Falaise.

So I can't say that this was necessarily "good soldiering" but in many cases it was brave soldiering and in some cases, poorly managed.

Goodwood and Atlantic




Overall view of the battles to reach Bourgébus and Verrières Ridges
By July 20, the British and Canadians were preparing to assault the ridges and it would be at great cost.



Cheers,

George




George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2022 7:54:48 PM
Quote:
1773 the Scots arrived big time in Nova Scotia! Comments??


The Scots had been coming to Nova Scotia since the early part of the 17th century. There was an attempt to establish a colony in 1622.

Scots were arriving in other parts of British North America as well. Many were involved in the fur trade. The Hudson's Bay Co. employed many Scots as factors, the man in charge of a fur trade post. So I have read, the education system in Scotland was more egalitarian than the system in England and so there were more Scots who could do their sums and keep good record books at the fur trade fort. If that assumption is more myth than fact, someone please weigh in.

But I think that the event to which MD made reference was the arrival of 200 Scots at Pictou, Nova Scotia. Pictou is pronounced Pick-Tow. That was a large group and many were only Gaelic speakers.

The Scots have been extremely important and influential in the development of Canada. My own ancestors were Scots and they initially came to Cape Breton Island in the very late 19th century.

Those who claim Scottish ancestry comprise about 14% of the population but some estimates are even higher.

This is an interesting book by Ken McGoogan



Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/22/2022 12:55:29 PM
Hi George,

Great responses on 3 of the events! Since you are of Scottish decent have you traced it back to a certain Clan?? Also Operation Atlantic was a little more complicated than I st thought thanks for the maps, & article! Isle Royale geographically probable should be part of Canada, but really the victim in losing this land was the 1st Nations!?
What say you??

7-21 in history, comments anyone??

1861 the 1 st battle of Bull Run, can you say picnic!??

1899 Ernest Hemingway was born! Interesting author, where would you rate him? Why did he commit suicide?? What say you about Ernest & his legacy!?? Comments, anyone??

1925 the courts rule the teaching of Evolution is outlawed!? Do you see the courts even today backing religious minorities, points of view?? Comments?

2011 NASA ends the Shuttle program! Why? & was it a success?? What say you?

Bring it on!?
MD

Checking 7-22 in history here's a few events, did I miss anything? Comments??

1812, the Duke of Wellington defeats the French & 40,000 soldiers! Why did he have Napoleon's number? & what made him a good commander!? What say you about the Duke??

1943 Gen. George S Patton took Solarno in Sicily!? What was the conflict with Monty all about?? Anyone?

1992 drug trafficker Pablo Escobar escapes police! Who do you get your drugs from!???

2011 Terrorists attack Oslo, 77 people are killed!? What was their motive? Anyone??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/22/2022 4:05:33 PM
Quote:
1943 Gen. George S Patton took Solarno in Sicily!? What was the conflict with Monty all about?? Anyone?


MD, is Solarno just a spelling error? Is there a place called Solarno in Sicily or were you referring to Salerno which is in Italy? The landing at Salerno didn't occur until Sept. of 1943. Or did you mean Palermo which is in Sicily? I am not trying to point out an error, MD, but I can't find any reference to Solarno.

Now in the race to Messina in Sicily, supposedly Patton was determined to beat Montgomery to that town just opposite mainland Italy.

But I am not so sure that Monty knew that a race was on. Some sites imply or state directly that Monty was "out generaled" by Patton. I suspect that they are not British sites.

But Patton was upset that Monty had been given permission by Harold Alexander to have exclusive use of a highway that would allow Monty to flank the Germans who were holding up his advance to the south and east of Mt. Etna. Patton was incensed that the British were given this route which had been originally assigned to the US. Patton was critical of his own US leadership including Ike for bending to the will of the British.

Patton flew to meet British General Alexander who was commander of the Sicilian campaign and convinced him to allow his 7th Army to engage the enemy more assertively in the west. Alexander said OK but with the assurance the the British flank would be covered. That's all that Patton needed to hear and he made plans to get to Messina before Montgomery and carried out his plans very well.

If we are talking specifically about July 22, 1943, I believe that the US troops were about to enter Palermo on the north coast.



Was Monty racing Patton? I don't believe so. Monty had enough on his hands in trying to advance toward Etna and I am proud to say that the Canadians played an important part in that.

So Patton got to Messina first with Monty right behind. Significant?? Maybe in Patton's head.



Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/22/2022 4:41:51 PM
Hi George,

I'm sure you have heard all kinds of excuses for mistakes in names or terms on this site. Here comes
another, to far out there to be made up!? It turns out I just got back from.an eye exam! & you know the stuff they put in your eyes to enlarge the pupils, so they can conduct a real through check into your eyes. Well I got back from.my eye doctor, & I wanted to post on MHO, it was bright in our living room, & I was practically blind! Lucky I got as many terms right, that I did!? That's my story & I'm sticking to it!

Solarno, in a extremely bright glare looks like Palerno??
When your pupils are the size of nickels!??
Actually my sight is still.not back to 100%!???
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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