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Message
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/12/2022 10:19:26 PM
Trevor, how lucky  you are to live where you do. And how fortunate you are that your sophisticated musical tastes are rewarded.

I’m thankful I’m not the only MHOer who enjoys the music of this brilliant (then) young black musician.

I ran into an asshole yesterday, who literally threatened me over a laundry machine he wanted to use. And I thought how lucky I have been to have lived in a world where the Gil Scott Heron’s predominate. Bet you feel the same way.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/12/2022 10:36:52 PM
Moved the posts over from previous page to make them easier to discuss? ANY more omments??
!Quote:
8-11 in history,

1919 Germany declares itself a republic, was it still considered a republic during WWII?? Anyone?

1964, The Beatles 1st album a Hard Days Night starts Beatles Mania! Do you consider them the #1 rock band of all time?? Comments?

2014 Comedian Robin Williams commits suicide! Why would someone so successful do such a thing? Others like him have also done it?? Comments?

9-12 today in history! New topics? Anyone?

1676 King Phillips War, What if the natives had concentrated their tribes & power early on in Colonial History, could they have driven the Europeans away?? What say you??

1877 Edison invents the Phonograph! What were his best inventions? Anyone??

1944 Joseph Kennedy killed in combat, some say he was to be Presidential!? What say you??

1961 the Commies begin building the Berlin Wall, how effective was it?? Anyone??

Just a few topics, any comments or other new ones??
Regards,
MD

George,

The reason the Wilmot Proviso didn't pass was the Senate, voted it down because it was anti new slavery! The Slave states were against it!? & George at this time in history, pre civil war,, any of these differences between the North, & South lead to more friction, this Proviso in particular!?



Hi Brian,

Do you still have the historic Phonograph? Thats cool about your family having lighthouse keepers, here in Michigan we have a volunteer program where you can sign up to be a guest light house keeper for a couple weeks, at many of our lighthouses!? We are considering trying it some future time!?

Could be fun,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2022 12:48:41 AM
MD, I not only have the Edison phonograph, but over the years I have used it and the music it makes in various PSAs and the like. I remember most happily using an ACW war song (“We Shall Meet, but We Shall Miss Him”) as a phone answering message during a campaign to bring a CBC station to Victoria. Both the phonograph and the cylinders were used visually for international education conferences I worked on.


The light at Point Atkinson (where both my grandfather and my father were keepers) is at the entrance to the roads and harbour of Vancouver. It is now designated a heritage structure, but is no longer manned; such structures are almost always automated now … sadly, I think.


I still have – probably illegally – Walter Erwin’s last log book, leading up to my grandfather taking over as keeper in 1910.


Here’s one link to the house, but there are many others. Some, I will admit, are unkind to my father’s time as “interim keeper” after his father’s death by dynamite explosion.

[span style="color: var(--mud-palette-text-primary); font-size: var(--mud-typography-default-size); font-weight: var(--mud-typography-default-weight); letter-spacing: var(--mud-typography-default-letterspacing); text-align: var(--bs-body-text-align); text-transform: var(--mud-typography-default-text-transform);" This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2022 12:53:24 PM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for sharing, (the link) was very helpful in tracing it, your Grand Father Thomas Grafton, & your Father Lawrence Grafton's history with the Port Atkinson Lighthouse, (why they are even listed on the historical plaque, at the site)! Very sad & tragic how your grandfather was killed (1933) by a dynamite explosion, while using the explosive as A fishing method?! From 1910 to 1935 Grafton's manned this vital light for the harbor of Vancouver! I if I may, invite all of MHO to check out this beautiful light by searching for it on sites like Youtube, or googling the history of Lighthouse keepers of the Port Atkinson, BC. Canada, Lighthouse!! These gentlemen also assisted for many years at Port Atkinson, before they were the head-keepers, amazing men!! Tell Bri what you think!??

Also your dad taking over, despite what he went through with his fathers traumatic fatal death, & his recovery of his beloved fathers body, was very admirable! I without realizing it. I was actually across the inner passage from it when I took the train trip between your town Victoria, & the town of Nanaimo, on beautiful Vancouver Island, in the early 80's! From what I understand not a single life was lost while this lighthouse was on watch! Why they even kept up a very necessary fog horn!!? From what I know the area is often very foggy, & 1st Nations near these shores used to feed & clothe themselves from things washed off ships passing through, so not sure how accurate the no fatality claim is??? Sad that they didn't let your dad Lawrence continue as the keeper after 1935!

Still your family had such a history with this famous historical & vital light to the area, even helping with coastal defense during WWII!? You must have spent some time visiting the light in realitively recent times?? Any other things about this personal history, you might share, but I understand if not!? Also as important as this job was it had to be a lonely but therapeutic existance, why your Grandfather goes back even to the original wooden structure 1910-1912!? What nautical history he must have observed!? Can you imagine the beautiful sailing vessels alone? & then the beautiful historic steamships, even warships, & coastguard vessels!? all on a beautiful coast! I in a way I envy him!!? But then again think of the physical & long hour demands of the early lighthouse keepers!? We can't even imagine it!??

BTW a very beautiful picturesque, lighthouse, I like many people love lighthouses!!

Thanks again,
Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2022 8:19:31 PM
August 13, 1948: the a/c of the Berlin Airlift complete their most successful day delivering supplies to the Allied sections of Berlin. Over 5,000 tons of supplies were delivered by 700+ a/c, in bad weather.

Just as a refresher, the Berlin Airlift was required because the Soviet Union blockaded Allied road and river/canal access to Berlin, assuming this would cause Allied sectors in Berlin to wither. The blockade continued until May, 1949, while the Allies continued the airlift until September in order to fill warehouses against a future disruption.

On at least one history website, by the way, the article talks about Berlin being divided into British, American and Soviet sectors. I’m pretty certain this is incorrect. The French were given nominal control of the northwest sector, though they played IIUC a less intrusive role administratively than other nations. There are, I know, folks who believe France received too much recognition as an Allied power, and too much say in post-war Europe. But I think it is in error to ignore their holdings both in Berlin and in the southwest of Germany in the post-war period.

Oddly – at least IMHO – this is also considered the day when the construction of the Berlin Wall began. There is nothing like the construction of a wall designed solely to keep your citizens from leaving to demonstrate success in governance. The Soviet powers blew it with the Airlift, demonstrating to the world that they could not enforce their will on an isolated city. On the contrary, Allied response to the blockade became a huge propaganda success, and had at least some place in creating NATO. Then they make a mockery of their relations with East Germany by fencing them in. Propaganda fiasco #2! There have been others as well, but my mind springs to the political farce currently being played out in Ukraine.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/14/2022 9:32:03 AM
Hi Brian, George, & MHO,

The Russians are still playing the aggressors even today, good point Bri. about the Ukraine invasion, history does repeat itself!?

Other 8-13 events were,

1521 the great Aztec Empire falls to a few Spanish soldiers!? How can this be?? Anyone?

1898 the US liberates Manila from the Spanish! What say you?

1926 Fidel Castro was born, he brought Communism to Cuba & the Western Hemisphere!? Comments?

1995 MLB great Mickey Mantle of the Yankees passes away at 63, how can a athlete like Mantle die at such an early age? Comments on the Mick!??

& today 8-14 in history, some notable events happened, Comments anyone??

1827 Race riots in Cincinnati, over 1000 African Americans leave for Canada! Why Canada? & how did our northern neighbors handle this?? Anyone?

Speaking of Canada, in the CFL this year, the Argos are in 1st ! The double blue are 9 & 5, do you think the boat-men can win the Grey Cup this year?? Go Arrrrghhooos!?

1900 the Boxer Rebellion is crushed by an international Force! Comments on how this played out? Anyone??

1917 China declares war on Germany & the Axis! Did the actually play any major role in the conflict?? What say you?

1935 FDR passes the Social Security Act, some complain about it, but are grateful when it helps them out! Comments??

1941 WSC, & FDR start the Atlantic Charter! What was this about? Comments anyone?

1947 Pakistan kicks out the British, & is independent!? How could they leave the Empire? What say you??

Comments? &
Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/14/2022 12:22:01 PM
Quote:
Guys,

Speaking of Canadians, in the Aluitians, What happened on August 15 1943 in the retaking of Kiska Island!???

How could this happen?
Who's to blame?

MD

To be fair, friendly fire incidents in WWII like this, were to numerous to count!?

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/14/2022 2:10:34 PM
Quote:
1947 Pakistan kicks out the British, & is independent!? How could they leave the Empire? What say you??


I don't think that this is a completely accurate characterization of the invention of the state of Pakistan, Dave.

We may criticize colonialism and imperialism but it is also true that many of the states which came under the rule of Great Britain also received the benefits of centuries of knowledge of how to govern effectively. Your country and mine come to mind.

It is true that India had been clamouring for independence and it is also true that India had developed as the crown jewel in the British Empire; not Canada, not Australia but India. But by the end of the second world war, an economically diminished Britain needed to liquidate its empire and to seek other economic models.

As well, the Indian contribution to the British and Commonwealth war effort had been immense and India was anticipating that its long sought after independence should arrive as soon as possible. We must also note that during the war, some Indian nationalists fought on the side of the Japanese and against the British forces which including thousands of Indian troops. In that sense, a civil war was raging in India. But both sides, Indian nationalists and those loyal to Britain were both ready to seek independence. It was the means and the timing that was at stake.

As for Britain, it was ready to grant independence to India but wanted to ensure that India would not be wracked with violence once Britain departed. Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims all had different ideas about what an independent India would look like. During the lead-up to independence it was clear that there was no consensus between the three major religious groups.

The Muslim faction demanded its own independent state, feeling that they would not receive fair treatment from the two other major religious groups. Civil unrest of the most violent kind broke out and in 1946, Britain despatched troops to regain control. Thousands were slaughtered in Calcutta as Muslims and Hindus fought one another.

From our comfortable position in 2022 we may criticize the solution that the British effected when it decided to partition India to create a Muslim state which was called Pakistan. We now have two countries with nuclear weapons facing off against one another in the mountainous north of the sub-continent.

But in 1946, Britain had come to the conclusion that if India was to survive as a nation rather than fall into a state of chronic insurrection and violence, then it would be necessary to partition.

India in 1946



India and Pakistan 1947



So the British created the country of Pakistan and gave the northern states of India the option to stay with India or join the new country which would be a majority Muslim country while India would be Hindu.

As for individuals, they had to make a decision and over ten million people were on the move. Hindus in the new Pakistan headed south to India and Muslims in India headed north. I don't know a lot about the incidents that were associated with this great migration but there was violence and massacres of people committed near the new border.

British troops stayed to help and advise the Indian security forces and slowly Britain began to draw down on its deployment. They were all gone by 1948.

Was the idea to partition India a particularly good idea, in hindsight? Did it reflect the will of the Indian majority?

A twenty minute video that addresses the participation of India and the role that the last Viceroy of India, Lord Louis Mountbatten played in it.

[Read More]

So Pakistan did not drive the British out. Pakistan was a creation of Great Britain. Good or bad?

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/14/2022 6:31:03 PM
Very good summary, George.

Seventy five years tomorrow: that midnight tryst with destiny.

Salman Rushdie wrote a good story about his own experience “ Midnight’s Child “. Good Lord , look what’s just happened to him !

British people are feeling a considerable sense of culpability for the way that India was abandoned to a chaotic situation in 1947 ; perhaps the same might be said of Palestine the following year.

New Jerusalem at home entailed a rather unedifying retreat from responsibility overseas.

Bombed out, bankrupted and determined to reconfigure their own society, the British people reassessed priorities.

I was fortunate to be born several years into that era.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/14/2022 7:52:17 PM
MD notes: “1941 WSC, & FDR start the Atlantic Charter! What was this about? Comments anyone?

The Atlantic Charter was a document describing terms of conduct and support, and general common aims of the governments of Great Britain and the USA. It was announced after a four-day secret conference held in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland. IMHO, it remains an unequivocal statement of the best that powerful nations can strive for, and was considered such a sound statement of intent that the Charter itself was included within the 1942 Declaration of the United Nations. so much pretty much captures the basic facts of the Atlantic Charter.

In four days, of course, many other issues were under discussion, and many other decisions taken. Churchill came to Placentia Bay intent of pushing the US closer to a declaration of war with Germany. FDR, as acute a politician as ever, knew the civilian US would not accept such a move. As a result of the Placentia Bay conference, e.g., the US extended its naval activity in the Atlantic without changing its official status, which was seen by both sides as an undefined step in what might be the right direction. Of greater general historical significance, IMHO, is that this belligerent/neutral meeting offered an unstated indicator of intent: the US was at one with those fighting against German military and political aims. I believe this conference was one fact which drew Hitler to declare war on the US in late 1941. In German eyes, the US was already at war against them, without any declaration of formal hostilities. From that point of view, the Atlantic Charter was not just of symbolic significance, but of actual impact on the way the Allies fought the war and why Germany felt it was making a reality a fact.

Cheers
Brian G

As an aside, when I checked Britannica’s “On This Day” site, I noted that the photo accompanying the Atlantic Charter blurb included Canada’s Prime Minister Mackenzie King. Mackenzie King was not at Placentia Bay. He had no reason to be, to be honest; Newfoundland was not in any was a part of Canada. The photograph appears to have been from the Quebec Conference of 1943, a much more open and publicized conference, more along the lines of Casablanca and Tehran irks me more than a little. How can we hope to engage folks in history if even self-proclaimed history sites make such easily correctable errors?

bg


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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/14/2022 7:53:34 PM
Hello Phil,

There are those who criticize the creation of Empires and at the same time are critical of the way that an Empire chooses to reduce its size and financial commitment. It strikes me as hypocritical and most unfair to criticized Great Britain, which was in a desperate financial situation in 1945, for the independence plan that it implemented in India.

I do wonder why the process was accelerated by a year. Apparently the target date was 1948 and Britain or perhaps Mountbatten elected to move the date up. Not sure why unless the financial situation in the UK was more difficult than I had indicated earlier.

We will never know whether another year in transition would have reduced the number deaths during the great migration.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/15/2022 9:09:29 AM
George, & Phil,

Good points on Pakistan, & Indian partition, I had forgotten how much aggression was involved! It would seem Lord Mountbatten, was more concerned of quickly washing his hands of this situation, & he left many on both sides out to dry, by leaving so early!??

Brian,

Thanks for straightening me out the Atlantic Charter, for us, nice observation on the wrong photo on Encyclopedia Britainica, on the topic article!?

Checking 8-15 in history, we see,,

1534 Ignatius of Loyola founds the Jesuits religious order! Here the Jesuits tried to convert & save the so called saveges instead they played a part in killing most of them off! Comments??

1914 the Panama Canal is opened for shipping! Who benefited the most from this?? Anyone?

1935 Will Rogers was killed in a plane crash in Alaska! You had to like his attitude of never meeting a man he didn't like? Or was he niave??

1947 Independence for India, why was India the Crown Jewel of the British Empire?? Just what did they have? & contribute?? What say you??

1960 the Congo gains independence from France! Why is this area so militant? Anyone??

1971 Bahrain gains independence from Britain, how did that go?? Comments?

1979 the classic war movie Apocalypse Now, opens! What was your take on this Erie movie on Vietnam!? Anyone? Comments?

1998 Car bombs go off in N. Ireland, the Real IRA, claims responsibility! What say you about this conflict!? Anyone?

2021 the Taliban take over Afghanistan! Why was it impossible for the west to win this conflict?? Comments?

More good topics today!?
Comments, anyone??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/15/2022 3:49:49 PM
Quote:
1947 Independence for India, why was India the Crown Jewel of the British Empire?? Just what did they have? & contribute?? What say you??


The sub-continent of India was made up of many somewhat independent states. Those states had spices, silk, salt and other natural resources to trade.

The British arrived in 1608 but as was British practice, they did not land armies and attack. They sent traders. Much as the Hudson Bay Company was given a charter to trade in Rupert's Land in North America, the East India Company was chartered to develop trade in India. This company and its share holders held a monopoly over trade in India.

Eventually the East India Company began to govern parts of India especially after the Empire ostensibly in control of India began to decline. The EIC established its own army to ensure that it would be able to trade. The Indian Empire had been in control but gradually lost it to the EIC which was acting as a proxy for the British government.

Many of the Indian states were content to work with the East India Co. but many rebelled and fought with the British. With individual Indian states trying to protect their own bases of power, the British were able to play one state off against another. And many Indians were proud to join the British army and assisted in keeping control.

EDIT: Soldiers from India fought in many places that the British were fighting. They fought in both World Wars. It is worth reading a bit about the Indian men fighting against the Japanese as part of the British forces. Check out Imphal and Kohima as an example.



During WWII, the Indian forces were among the largest armies in the world. Over 2.5 million Indian troops fought for the allies in theatres across the globe. They were easily the largest force contributed by the Dominions and Colonies of the British Empire and they entered the war in 1939.

The British eventually established direct rule over India, shunting the East India Company aside. I am not sufficiently educated to be able to explain why the British felt that they had to step in to take control.

Other countries including the French were trying to establish themselves in India but the British were too powerful and eventually came to dominate. They ruled for about 200 years didn't they?

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/15/2022 3:52:09 PM
Dave,

Folklore has it that Lord Louis Mountbatten - or “ Mount- bottom “ as he is irreverently nicknamed - was cuckolded by Nehru, who enjoyed the favours of Edwina Mountbatten in another tryst !

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/15/2022 8:35:43 PM
George, you note: “The British eventually established direct rule over India, shunting the East India Company aside. I am not sufficiently educated to be able to explain why the British felt that they had to step in to take control.”

Like you, I’m not au fait with much Imperial Indian history either, but I know that integral to the end of the East Indian Company and the switch to British government rule was the the ongoing  Hastings affair, which ultimately led to imeachment proceedings being brought against Warren Hastings, one time Governor-General of EIC and effective ruler of Bengal.

Hastings literally worked his way up from clerk to G-G. He was an “Indian”, a faction of East India Company controllers who believed in allowing the use of Indian laws and concourse in general transactions between Company and natives. This led to increasingly bitter arguments with members of the “British” group, who believed English laws and customs were necessary. Things became so heated that in 1780 Hastings and his chief adversary, Sir Philip Francis, fought a duel in which Francis was wounded. Francis returned to Britain and agitated for close examination of Hastings’ conduct; this eventually lead to an elongated, off-and-on impeachment trial before the combined Lords and Commons which began in 1788 and was not resolved until 1795.

The lead prosecutor was Edmund Burke. His reputation as a political scientist and essayist remain sound even today (Think Reflections on the Revolution in France, e.g.; think his support of the rebellious 13 colonies). But he was also a Whig, and at least part of his attack on Hastings was an attack on William Pitt and his Tory government. In the end, Hastings was fully and honourably acquitted, though the trial broke him financially. He had not earned great wealth through his career, and the cost of his trial ran to some £70,000. Ultimately he would be awarded a decent pension to maintain himself. But IIUC the trial was ugly enough that the East Indian Company was deemed unfit to maintain governance of the Indian subcontinent.

The trial became, as an aside, a “society event” when it was in session. Being seen at Westminster Hall was fashionable! Sir Joshua Reynolds, who was hard of hearing after catching an infection in the Vatican while sketching in the Sistine Chapel in 1749 or 1750, was a long-time friend of Edmund Burke, but had come to believe in Warren Hastings’ innocence, would appear at hearings without his ear trumpet, so that he wouldn’t be able to hear what one friend might say about another.

I don’t know whether the Hastings Impeachment Trial was vital to the collapse of the monopoly enjoyed by the East India Company. But the trial did carry huge weight as the change of rule encompassed India, at least as far as I understand. I’m simply dredging up old data. Reynolds was the focus of my thesis, so I had to follow at least some of the issue for arcane and academic reasons.

If you want more info on the Hastings trial, the Wiki entry seems pretty sound. Note, please, that the paintings of both Warren Hastings and Edmund Burke came from the brush of Sir Joshua Reynolds. I don’t know how to turn this into a link in the new format, but here is the Wiki article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Warren_Hastings

Cheers
Brian G


----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/15/2022 8:55:12 PM
Phil, is this common knowledge or folklore? I’ve never run into it. Weekends were often notoriously randy, so I wouldn’t be surprised if this was one tradition adapted by the British in the Raj. I’ve just not stumbled upon this particular tryst. I was probably focusing on a different set of doors along a different corridor at the time!  

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/15/2022 9:03:55 PM
Quote:
Dave,

Folklore has it that Lord Louis Mountbatten - or “ Mount- bottom “ as he is irreverently nicknamed - was cuckolded by Nehru, who enjoyed the favours of Edwina Mountbatten in another tryst !

Regards, Phil



Hey Phil,

Your quite right about Edwina, seems she ventured around the block, A time or 2 or 3 or 4 or, you get the picture!?

Lord MB sure knew how to pick em!?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/15/2022 10:06:50 PM
MD, you note: “1960 the Congo gains independence from France! Why is this area so militant? Anyone??”

To clarify at the start, the Congo gained independence from Belgium. The French approach to colonial structure was, IMHO, much more honourable and sensible than Belgium’s ever was.

I’m going simply from memory here, so I’m prepared to be corrected and edified. But as I remember it, it wasn’t that the Congo gained independence so much as that Belgium decided, with four month’s notice, to abandon the area known as the Belgian Congo to its own devices. This was, IMHO, one of the ugliest, most thoughtless divestments committed during the 1960s. Belgium simply walked away from an artificially created territory, leaving no members of the various native cultures with even a hope of creating a nation-state. There was no civic structure, and little more than a military-style structure as a control agency.

Congo was a huge area encompassing a host of languages, cultures, faiths and commitments. Belgium didn’t give a fig about that: they wanted out, so they left. They didn’t leave behind a unified culture with desire to create a recognizable national structure based on pre-colonial links and commitments.

I’m not one to argue that an eduction automatically provides wisdom or capability. On the other hand, I believe it necessary to have some sense of the concept of nationhood in order to link tribal values in such a way that tribally held lands can combine sufficiently to create a national consensus.

I don’t think the various clans and nations of the Congo are militaristic, except in that one of the best avenues to literacy is through military enlistment.

Sorry. IMHO, Belgium demonstrated no responsibility in their rejection of any responsibility of a huge, complex territory.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/16/2022 6:44:13 AM
Brian,

Heart of Darkness said it all.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/16/2022 7:34:15 PM
Quote:
George, & Phil,
Guys,

Checking 8-15 in history, we see,, these events, & some weren't commented on yet!? Anyone?

1534 Ignatius of Loyola founds the Jesuits religious order! Here the Jesuits tried to convert & save the so called saveges instead they played a part in killing most of them off! Comments??

1914 the Panama Canal is opened for shipping! Who benefited the most from this?? Anyone?

1935 Will Rogers was killed in a plane crash in Alaska! You had to like his attitude of never meeting a man he didn't like? Or was he niave??

1971 Bahrain gains independence from Britain, how did that go?? Comments?

1979 the classic war movie Apocalypse Now, opens! What was your take on this Erie movie on Vietnam!? Anyone? Comments?

1998 Car bombs go off in N. Ireland, the Real IRA, claims responsibility! What say you about this conflict!? Anyone?

2021 the Taliban take over Afghanistan! Why was it impossible for the west to win this conflict?? Comments?

& checking 8-16, today in history events see below! Or comment or new topics, anyone??

1780 Cornwallis wins the battle of Camden for the Brits., did he have help from Loyalists?? Comments?

1812 William Hull surrenders Fort Detroit with out a fight, he was Court marshaled, & sentenced to death! Did he deserve this?? Comments?

1888 TE Lawrence, AKA Lawrence of Arabia, was born! How did he effect war in the middle east at this time? Or is this overblown? Anyone??

1913 Begin, & Sadat share the Nobel peace prize! Weren't they adversaries?? How did this happen?? What say you??

1948 Babe Ruth dies at 53, how great a power hitter was he in MLB history? Comments?

1954 James Cameron, Canadian producer Of Titanic & other modern films, was born! Why was he so notable in the industry?? Anyone?

1977 Elvis Presley dies from a drug overdose! What was his influence on Rock n roll?? What say you??

2003 Idi Amin dies in Saudi Arabia how terrible was he towards the general populations? Especially in the Congo??

Also feel free to continue previous topics!?

Or, Any More good new topics today!?
Comments, anyone??
Regards,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/16/2022 8:02:27 PM
Phil, I think you’re dead right.

B

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/16/2022 9:16:51 PM
Quote:
1812 William Hull surrenders Fort Detroit with out a fight, he was Court marshaled, & sentenced to death! Did he deserve this?? Comments?


William Hull was a 60 year old man when the US decided to invade British North America. He had served his country well during the revolutionary war but was well past his prime as a military officer. He was comfortably ensconced as the governor of the Michigan Territory when war broke out.

His forces had crossed the Detroit River into Canada and while some French speaking residents did lend support, by and large, the people of Upper Canada were not pleased to see him. The Americans were convinced that they would be welcomed with open arms.

They had landed near modern day Windsor unopposed and his officers urged Hull to advance but Hull's heart wasn't in the campaign and he was unsure of the strength of the opposition that he could face. US reconnaissance told Hull that Amherstburg was not well defended but still he would not proceed. He did have legitimate concerns for his supply lines which had been attacked by First Nations warriors led by Tecumseh who had crossed from Upper Canada to the US side and slaughtered a supply column.

Hull sent 600 soldiers to reopen the supply route. It was attacked but the Americans managed to repel the FN warriors. But those warriors had intercepted some communications from Hull and this information led the British under their aggressive commander, Isaac Brock to believe that they faced an unwilling warrior.

But Hull had had enough and he withdrew back across the Detroit River to Fort Detroit. Hull was actually prepared to go right back to the Ohio area from where they had come but his disillusioned officers convinced him to stay in the Detroit area lest his troops desert en masse.

General Brock heard of the attack and rushed with about 300 troops to Amherstburg where he, against the advice of some officers, decided to attack Fort Detroit. The great warrior chief, Tecumseh, was elated and he gathered his forces. The great warrior chief of the Iroquois nation now living near Brantford, Upper Canada was John Norton and he brought warriors with him to Amherstburg.

The British had two gun ships in the river but the site lines from Fort Detroit were such that it was impossible to engage the ships with the fort's artillery. Brock and Tecumseh crossed the river and headed up the road toward the fort. They were greatly outnumbered by the Americans in the fort but Hull didn't seem to know that.

It wasn't much of a battle as after a couple of rounds of British artillery, General Hull ordered a white flag to be displayed. It was all over quite quickly.

Accounts by American officers say that Hull was found in a room quivering with fear, incoherent with spittle foaming on the sides of his mouth. Hull had has family with him and what British General Brock knew of Hull was that he had a great fear of First Nations' warriors and what they might do even in surrender. Brock played up Hull's fears by sending him a message that Brock was not sure that he could control the First Nations' warriors once the battle began. This frightened Hull.

Hull's officers were angry and embarrassed at this defeat and they blamed William Hull. The British entered the fort with the band playing, "The British Grenadiers". The Americans called their leader "Granny Hull" and not affectionately.

No more than 600 British soldiers, militia and FN warriors had defeated a force of 2188 men. 39 guns had been taken and supplies of shot, flints and food and a ship that was being built too was seized.

EDIT: allow me to change those numbers. When Hull attacked initially, he faced only 100 regulars, 300 militia and about 150 FN warriors, so less than 600. When Brock arrived he came with 300 more regulars. Hearing of the British success in seizing Fort Michilimackinac, FN warriors began to arrive to join Tecumseh.
So when Fort Detroit was attacked, over 500 warriors crossed the river first and they were followed by 300 British regulars, 30 Royal Artillery, 400 militia and 70 more Iroquois warriors. When I first reported the numbers, something twigged in my head. Just seemed wrong. Still, the US forces outnumbered the British.

Poor befuddled Hull attended a court-martial in 1814 where he was charged with treason, cowardice, neglect of duty and behaviour unbecoming of an officer. The court determined that the treason charge was beyond their purview but found Hull guilty on the other charges. He was sentenced to death and his name was removed from the rolls of the army as he was dishonourably discharged.

To this day, William Hull is the only US general to be sentenced to death by a court-martial.

I have some sympathy for Hull. The US preparation for this war was ineffective if present at all. They had assumed that this invasion would be a cake walk or in the words of Thomas Jefferson, the defeat of the British was a "mere matter of marching".

Hull was not the man to be assigned to this task but in 1812 the US was still relying upon old retainers from the revolution to lead the troops. The transformation to a professional fighting force within two years was remarkable and certainly had nothing to do with William Hull.

But Hull had been a revolutionary hero and so President Madison remitted the sentence and Hull spent the rest of his life trying to explain why he had made the choice not to fight at Fort Detroit.

Cheers,

George



Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/17/2022 6:22:00 AM
Hello George,

What a harsh fate to mete out to a general who was too fragile to cope !

I note that his son was subsequently killed at Lundy’s Lane.

I’m pleased that his death sentence was commuted, and that there was a degree of sympathy extended to him in his last years.

It always gets me a bit agitated when I see stories of military leaders being vilified as cowards or blunderers.

Too often the heckling bystanders shriek for scapegoats.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/17/2022 6:38:47 AM
Quote:
Hello George,

What a harsh fate to mete out to a general who was too fragile to cope !

I note that his son was subsequently killed at Lundy’s Lane.

I’m pleased that his death sentence was commuted, and that there was a degree of sympathy extended to him in his last years.

It always gets me a bit agitated when I see stories of military leaders being vilified as cowards or blunderers.

Too often the heckling bystanders shriek for scapegoats.

Regards, Phil



My feeling as well, Phil. However, I must add that Hull was a willing leader. I indicated that he was the governor of Michigan Territory which would have been a reward for his performances in a number of revolutionary war battles. But when war was brewing in 1812, he did travel to Washington to lobby for his selection as commander of the troops.

He and many others assumed that this war would not be difficult and that the colonists in Upper Canada would welcome them with flowers. Upper Canada was sparsely populated especially in the western end and the colony was full of American ex-patriots who had come for free land. These people were not Loyalists compelled to leave their land of birth after the revolution. They had come north at the behest of Governor John Simcoe who believed that he needed immigrants to open Upper Canada. These people have been called "late Loyalists" and not in a kindly way. General Brock also believed that these American settlers could not be trusted to defend the colony and indeed, he was worried that they would assist the invaders.

Largely, they did not but it is understandable that the invaders, including General Hull, would feel the same way. Hull was shocked to see British troops and FN warriors surrounding his fort at Detroit and he panicked.

I suppose that he wanted to be present for the glory but was mentally unprepared for the stiff resistances lead by Isaac Brock.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/17/2022 6:58:33 AM
Thanks George.

He just wasn’t up to the job.

This would make a good jumping off point to launch a wider discussion about military leaders through the ages who’ve been condemned as cowardly, incompetent or worse.

The Hero to Zero syndrome might be a recurring theme.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/17/2022 7:03:37 PM
Quote:
Quote:
George, & Phil,
Guys,

Checking 8-15 in history, we see,, these events, & some weren't commented on yet!? Anyone?

1534 Ignatius of Loyola founds the Jesuits religious order! Here the Jesuits tried to convert & save the so called saveges instead they played a part in killing most of them off! Comments??

1914 the Panama Canal is opened for shipping! Who benefited the most from this?? Anyone?

1935 Will Rogers was killed in a plane crash in Alaska! You had to like his attitude of never meeting a man he didn't like? Or was he niave??

1971 Bahrain gains independence from Britain, how did that go?? Comments?

1979 the classic war movie Apocalypse Now, opens! What was your take on this Erie movie on Vietnam!? Anyone? Comments?

1998 Car bombs go off in N. Ireland, the Real IRA, claims responsibility! What say you about this conflict!? Anyone?

2021 the Taliban take over Afghanistan! Why was it impossible for the west to win this conflict?? Comments?

& checking 8-16, today in history events see below! Or comment or new topics, anyone??

1780 Cornwallis wins the battle of Camden for the Brits., did he have help from Loyalists?? Comments?

1812 William Hull surrenders Fort Detroit with out a fight, he was Court marshaled, & sentenced to death! Did he deserve this?? Comments?

1888 TE Lawrence, AKA Lawrence of Arabia, was born! How did he effect war in the middle east at this time? Or is this overblown? Anyone??

1913 Begin, & Sadat share the Nobel peace prize! Weren't they adversaries?? How did this happen?? What say you??

1948 Babe Ruth dies at 53, how great a power hitter was he in MLB history? Comments?

1954 James Cameron, Canadian producer Of Titanic & other modern films, was born! Why was he so notable in the industry?? Anyone?

1977 Elvis Presley dies from a drug overdose! What was his influence on Rock n roll?? What say you??

2003 Idi Amin dies in Saudi Arabia how terrible was he towards the general populations? Especially in the Congo??

Also feel free to continue previous topics!?

Or, Any More good new topics today!?
Comments, anyone??
Regards,
MD




Phil, & George,

Hull even though governor of the Michigan Territory is not well remembered here? No towns or monuments named for him. He's a little like CW General Winfield Scott, hero of the Mexican war but not so successful in the Civil War!?

Also check through the recent events above, there are some good topics for discussion!?

What say you??
D
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/17/2022 8:40:10 PM
Quote:

Phil, & George,

Hull even though governor of the Michigan Territory is not well remembered here? No towns or monuments named for him. He's a little like CW General Winfield Scott, hero of the Mexican war but not so successful in the Civil War!?

Also check through the recent events above, there are some good topics for discussion!?

What say you??
D


Dave, the US army was not very effective at the beginning of the war of 1812. By 1814 they were, as I mentioned, a professional fighting force.

And Winfield Scott may take credit for changing the way in which the US army was trained.

Scott was involved in the first invasion of Upper Canada in the Battle of Queenston Heights where he became aware that his rag-tag army augmented by an unwilling militia was insufficient to win in battle. He was captured at Q.H. but repatriated. But for the 6 weeks that he was a prisoner held in Québec, he observed the training of British soldiers and the behaviour of British officers.

Once exchanged he began to collate the information that he had gleaned from the British and the training manuals of other countries including the French. And he took it upon himself to revise US Army training methods. I have read that he was extremely picky and insisted upon drilling and re-drilling until the men could move effectively on the battlefield. Scott also instructed the officer corps on their duties and responsibilities.

After the debacle at Queenston Heights, Scott was not convinced that the militia were of much use and that reinforced his determination to create a professional army.

Now Scott was badly injured at the Battle of Lundy's Lane (near Niagara Falls) and could not continue to command but the US troops performed very well.

I am aware that the War of 1812 receives very little attention in the US. That's what happens when you lose a war I guess.
But there is a lot more to Winfield Scott than the Mexican War. Many years before Scott had set the tone for the proper training of a US standing army.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/18/2022 3:26:30 AM
The Duke of Wellington opined that Scott’s command of the US forces in the War against Mexico was the greatest military feat of the age.

The strategy adopted by Scott in that war convinced the Iron Duke that Winfield Scott was not just a good commander, but a transcendental one .

The American Civil War was defined, and effectively won, through the implementation of Scott’s strategy which was dubbed The Anaconda Plan.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/18/2022 10:44:06 AM

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/18/2022 5:12:00 PM
Was the Anaconda Plan carried out? I am not particularly knowledgeable about the battles of the civil war but I have read that Scott was ridiculed for suggesting that plan. Were the critics from the military or politicians?

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/18/2022 6:53:05 PM
On this day in 1941, Hitler cancels the T.4 program, bringing to a close a program begun in 1939 to systematically rid Germany of those with mental illness or physical handicaps. T.4 was, in effect, a program to kill those whose lives would never be of value to the state. It was debated in particular in Germany from the last year of WW1 until the T.4 program was established in 1939. 

Like all Nazi programs, it was documented and justified; it distinguished between Aryans who were potential victims and Jews with the same challenges. IIUC, death was by lethal injection or by gas, but the reason for death was given as “complications while under treatment”.

Two points (the second, a question):
1)  Eugenics has been an issue for at least 150 years, and has branched in various ways. Based on a still un-proven scientific assumption – that the human race can be “improved” by removing certain “markers” from the general population – it has been applied in various ways in many European cultures (I can’t speak to other cultures such as the Ruanda genocide). The German program is, clearly, an extreme, but of course the place of “race” in Nazi theory and practice makes such a program at least an unsurprising fit. 

2)  I thought I had read of a program like T.4 introduced much earlier in the Nazi period, starting perhaps as early as 1934, but cannot now find any reference to such an early program now. Does anyone else remember reading something similar?

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/18/2022 9:01:21 PM
Phil, &George,

You are correct about Scott's Anaconda Plan! It was implemented, & was the blueprint for successfully defeating the Confederacy!

Checking 8-18 in history we see the following topics! Comments? Anyone??

1227 Genghis Khan died at age 55, he used horrific military policies to expand from Mongolia, his son would conquer even more of Asia! What's your take on the Khans??

1896 Butch Cassidy brings over 200 outlaws together into the Wild Bunch! Comments on the lawlessness of the wild west!? Anyone??

1920 the 19th Amendment passes, women can finally vote! Has it made a difference in policy??

1969 Woodstock attracts some 400,000 strong, sex starved, drug addicted dare we say hippies!? BTW I'll have what their having!? ☺

Any other new topics!?
Regards,
MD

Also I'm heading up north again, & I'm not sure how much I can post, due to poor tech reception, so please pick up the slack, & carry on!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/19/2022 8:42:44 AM
d
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/19/2022 10:25:33 AM
Aug. 19, 1942

I would be remiss if I did not mention that today is the 80th anniversary of the raid on the French port of Dieppe.

Approximately 6000 men made an amphibious landing on Dieppe. Of those nearly 4963 were Canadians from the second division, 1075 were British and 50 US Rangers also took part.

The raid has been analyzed in detail in Canada especially. We know that it was a failed effort and it was a slaughter of good men who were anxious to prove their worth. Commander of the Canadians, "Ham" Roberts had told his troops, "Don't worry men. It'll be a piece of cake". Roberts wasn't responsible for this failure but his words would haunt him.

There are many books written about the Dieppe raid. I would say that the consensus is that the claim that the raid informed the allies of what was needed to be successful in Normandy is a false claim. Perhaps there was a lot of, "don't do this. Don't do that" but the men on the beach who lived claimed that they could not even raise their heads to fire once they got to the beach wall. Still some on the main beach did enter the buildings and raised hell before leaving but of the three main landing areas, very few objectives were met.

The raid was a slaughter. Men dropped like flies within steps of their landing craft. Tanks lost their treads on the stone beaches called chert.

The raid only lasted a few hours and for the Canadians the price paid was dear.

907 were killed
1946 were POW
2460 were wounded.

A very high casualty rate indeed.

The 1000 British commandos lost 247 men.
The RN lost HMS Berkely, and 33 landing craft. 550 dead and wounded.

The RAF and RCAF lost 106 aircraft.

The 50 US Rangers served with several British commando units and suffered 6 killed, 7 wounded and 4 POW.

One of those wounded was my uncle who was hit by a mortar round as he ran to the beach when the order to retreat was given. German doctors saved his life though he lost one eye and had poor vision in the other. Shrapnel in his heart eventually killed him but he did make it home thanks to the Red Cross exchange programme.





There is a memorial park in the town of Dieppe and today a commemorative ceremony was held. They have not forgotten.

Many of the Canadians were buried by the Germans in a cemetery near the town. I visited this cemetery and one cannot helped but be shocked by the row after row of headstones with the same date etched into them, Aug. 19, 1942. Not all of the 907 men are buried here. Some of the wounded made it back to the UK but died in hospital. Some died in German hospitals in France and are buried near those hospitals.



Monument in the town of Dieppe



In memory of sapper, Sgt. Robert Adams, my uncle.

George

I would be happy to discuss the details surrounding the organization of this raid and the actual battle but not in this section. I have included a pretty good analysis of the battle here:

[Read More]

6 minute video

[Read More]
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/19/2022 12:57:27 PM
George,

Thanks for this Dieppe commemoration.

A ghastly business, with some sickening implications. Mountbatten made some attempt to justify it, but his arguments - to my mind - seem like a shriek of denial/defiance.

I think you'll find that many of the 2,460 wounded you enumerated were included in the 1,946 POWs : forgive this quibble, it might seem ungracious. especially considering the fate of your Uncle.

It's customary in British folklore to depict the generalship of WW2 to be slicker and more sparing of human life than what had been displayed in WW1. This view is hard to reconcile with the story of Dieppe.

Editing : I reckon I’ve solved the casualty figure interpretation, George :

3,367 total Canadians, including 907 dead, 514 wounded and evacuated, 1,946 POWs, including many wounded who, like your Uncle, were left to the mercy of the enemy .

Exactly a quarter of a century earlier, the Canadian Corps in France fought a remarkably successful attritional battle against the Germans at Hill 70. Well planned and meticulously executed, and despite ( or because of ? ) the bitter and intense fighting, it was an exemplar of sorts. Ironically, the war that’s become synonymous with callous and incompetent generalship furnished a case of the opposite, whilst the Dieppe debacle shows how WW2 had its share of “ Lions led by Donkeys “.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/19/2022 3:59:04 PM
Phil, I must say that the Canadian government and the military were anxious to get their boys, "blooded". US troops who had only recently arrived had already been in combat in North Africa. Canada found that embarrassing as they had been on garrison duty in the UK and if anything, were overtrained and tired of the "schemes" that their officers invented for them.

Initially the raid was mounted as Operation Rutter but it was cancelled. And then it was remounted as Jubilee but with significant changes to support. No heavy bombers and no large battleships in Jubilee. The Canadians had a chance to pull out but would not consider it. I wish that they had.

When Rutter was cancelled, the Canadians were let loose and my father and his older brother George met up with brother Bobby in a pub. They were surprised to see him walk in. He told them that he had been training on the Isle of Wight for a big raid on Dieppe but it had been cancelled. I have read that it was Mountbatten who felt that it would be clever to remount exactly the same raid as Rutter but to call it Jubilee. Apparently Mountbatten reasoned that the Germans wouldn't believe that the allies would do something as foolish as that.

As you mentioned, the Canadian Corps of WWI fame had distinguished itself in many battles. Hill 70 was one of those and indeed, General Arthur Currie had planned well for it. Originally, he had been ordered to take Lens but he convinced the British General Horne to let him attack the high hill beside Lens. The Canadians had practiced and drilled extensively for this particular battle. Every soldier knew his short term objectives and long term. They had seen maps.

They seized Hill 70 and it was not an easy fight, and then dragged MG's up the hill and, as planned, received multiple counter attacks from the Germans who knew that possession of the hill was important to the security of Lens. And those German troops were cut down mercilessly by the Canadians on Hill 70 in the 21 counter attacks that they mounted.

I believe that German casualties were in the order of 30,000 with 1500 of that number taken prisoner. Allied losses were only about 1400 killed and 8,000 wounded.

The numbers at Dieppe pale by comparison but then WWI was certainly fought differently and at greater cost.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/20/2022 9:08:04 AM
Quote:
Hey guys,

I do have OK computer availability this weekend after all!

It was correct about Scott's Anaconda Plan! It was implemented, & was the blueprint for successfully defeating the Confederacy! What say you??

Checking 8-18 in history we see the following topics! Comments? Anyone??

1227 Genghis Khan died at age 55, he used horrific military policies to expand from Mongolia, his son would conquer even more of Asia! What's your take on the Khans??

1896 Butch Cassidy brings over 200 outlaws together into the Wild Bunch! Comments on the lawlessness of the wild west!? Anyone??

1920 the 19th Amendment passes, women can finally vote! Has it made a difference in policy??

1969 Woodstock attracts some 400,000 strong, sex starved, drug addicted dare we say hippies!? BTW I'll have what their having!? ☺

Any other new topics!?
Regards,
MD



& in 8-20 in history, the following, comments.Anyone??

1619 the English bring African Slaves to Jamestown, showing Colonies were purely for profit, & dooming complete freedom in the America's!? What say you??

1741, Vitus Bering discovers Alaska for the Russians, It should have been British, & later Canada's!? Any takes on this? & what of the 1st Nations??

1794 Gen. Mad Anthony Wayne wins the Battle of Fallen Timbers?? Comments on it? Anyone?

1833 Benjamin Harrison (R) wins the Presidency despite losing the popular vote by.almost 100,000 votes to Grover Cleveland! Damn the electoral college! What. Say you?? Any way Harrison.was born on this date!!

1914 the Germans capture Brussels Belgium in.WWI, where were the Allies? Comments?

1968 the Soviets invade Czechoslovakia! has anything changed.in these times, regarding Russia's aggressiveness??. What say you?

1975 the US launches Viking I to Mars!.what did they discover? Anyone??

BTW George, thanks for the great post on WWI battle of Dieppe, continue discussing!?

Summer you got to love.it!

Regards,
MD


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/20/2022 10:19:44 AM
Quote:
1794 Gen. Mad Anthony Wayne wins the Battle of Fallen Timbers?? Comments on it? Anyone?


Look at the time period. Eleven years after the Treaty of Paris of 1783 and the end of the rebellion of the 13 colonies, the Revolutionary War had concluded, altering British plans to govern their colonies including the former French colonies acquired in 1763. The Royal Proclamation of 1763 had established the "proclamation line" at the Appalachian Mountains and 13 colonies were forbidden to settle beyond that line. Some of those were people who had land speculation interests beyond the mountain.



With the Treaty of Paris of 1783, the British plans to carve out a large section of land for the Indians to the south of the Ohio Valley were invalidated. The white settlers from the 13 colonies were now eager to pore into the territory and this led to greater conflicts with the tribes remaining in the Northwest Territories of the new USA. Their deal for land with the British was no more and so they would have to fight the Americans for Indian lands.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 was confirmed or supported by the Québec Act of 1774 which expanded the size of the colony of Québec and indicated again that a massive swath of land would be reserved for the First Nations.



The Royal Proclamation was a detailed document and only a portion of it addressed the needs of the First Nations who had allied with Great Britain in defeating the French. Below is the section that pertains to the First Nations and the lands promised to them.

Quote:
nd whereas it is just and reasonable, and essential to our Interest, and the Security of our Colonies, that the several Nations or Tribes of Indians with whom We are connected, and who live under our Protection, should not be molested or disturbed in the Possession of such Parts of Our Dominions and Territories as, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are reserved to them. or any of them, as their Hunting Grounds. — We do therefore, with the Advice of our Privy Council, declare it to be our Royal Will and Pleasure. that no Governor or Commander in Chief in any of our Colonies of Quebec, East Florida. or West Florida, do presume, upon any Pretence whatever, to grant Warrants of Survey, or pass any Patents for Lands beyond the Bounds of their respective Governments as described in their Commissions: as also that no Governor or Commander in Chief in any of our other Colonies or Plantations in America do presume for the present, and until our further Pleasure be known, to grant Warrants of Survey, or pass Patents for any Lands beyond the Heads or Sources of any of the Rivers which fall into the Atlantic Ocean from the West and North West, or upon any Lands whatever, which, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us as aforesaid, are reserved to the said Indians, or any of them.

And We do further declare it to be Our Royal Will and Pleasure, for the present as aforesaid, to reserve under our Sovereignty, Protection, and Dominion, for the use of the said Indians, all the Lands and Territories not included within the Limits of Our said Three new Governments, or within the Limits of the Territory granted to the Hudson's Bay Company, as also all the Lands and Territories lying to the Westward of the Sources of the Rivers which fall into the Sea from the West and North West as aforesaid.

And We do hereby strictly forbid, on Pain of our Displeasure, all our loving Subjects from making any Purchases or Settlements whatever, or taking Possession of any of the Lands above reserved. without our especial leave and Licence for that Purpose first obtained.
And We do further strictly enjoin and require all Persons whatever who have either wilfully or inadvertently seated themselves upon any Lands within the Countries above described or upon any other Lands which, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are still reserved to the said Indians as aforesaid, forthwith to remove themselves from such Settlements.


The new country of the USA pursued the defeat of this loose confederation of First Nations (Northwest Indian Confederation) who coveted the lands in the Northwest Territory promised to them by the British.

Note that these First Nations were also former allies of the 13 colonists who wanted the British to defeat the French and their Indian allies who had plagued the 13 colonists for years.

The FN's fought back but the Battle of Fallen Timbers is considered to be the nail in the coffin of the First Nations in the territory. General Anthony Wayne negotiated a treaty with the Indian confederation that saw the First Nations ceding all the lands that would become most of Ohio, Michigan, Illinois and Indiana. We note that the British who still occupied forts in the territory did not come to the aid of their former allies. The British had yet to abandon many forts in the Northwest Territory and would not until the signing of Jay's Treaty in 1794, not coincidentally at about the same time that Wayne signed his treaty with the defeated First Nations. It was a sad betrayal by the British and the Americans.

The First Nations felt betrayed by their British allies in wars against the French and who had promised them this land and the new USA had no intention of honouring the terms of the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and especially the Québec Act of 1774 which would confine them to the east side of the Appalachians. The First Nations were abandoned and mistreated after the war.

Of note, the Royal Proclamation of 1763 still influences politics and relations with Canada's First Nations. The document has influenced policies and procedures involved with treaty making with FN's in Canada and even today we still have disputes over old treaties that the FN's assert have not been honoured according to terms laid out in the proclamation.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/20/2022 12:01:39 PM
Quote:
BTW George, thanks for the great post on WWI battle of Dieppe, continue discussing!?


MD, Dieppe was a second world war battle and, for Canada, the bloodiest day of that war. My second post may have been confusing as I spoke of a WWI battle, the battle of Hill 70 in which the Canadian Corps had an outstanding success and I posted it in contrast to what ensued at Dieppe.

In fact, the success of the Canadian Corps in WWI somewhat influenced the cadre of officers who had served in that war, were still active in the second world war, and could not abide the fact that the Canadian infantry were waiting for meaningful action in Britain from the beginning of the war. And so when an opportunity arose to get the troops into action, they were more than willing to take a chance on Dieppe.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/20/2022 12:59:08 PM
Oops George,

I thought I hit the capital I twice, but it came out as only one!? I know Dieppe is WWII! No slight to the great effort by the Canadian forces!

I got to proof read my replies more!?
Cheers,
MD

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