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Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/20/2022 1:51:07 PM
George,

Those Canadian senior officers of 1942 who had fought in those ghastly battles in France and Flanders twenty five years earlier must have felt the blood of their fallen comrades calling out to them .

It’s a theme that makes me quite emotional : how many of the triumphant German soldiers of 1940 must have felt the poignancy of their fathers’ fate when they contemplated the millions of their countrymen who bled and died trying to take Paris in four years of warfare 1914-18, a feat that they accomplished in six weeks ?

A new book is due out at the beginning of September, by Robert Kershaw, about Dunkirk through German eyes, and he alludes to this .

As for the British and French soldiers of 1940 who retreated past those immense cemeteries from the earlier war : how must they have felt ?

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/20/2022 4:48:37 PM
phil, & George,

Armies from WWI had to be.aghast that so soon after WWI, WWII happens!? Unbelievable, how short those instigating. It, had such short memories!.What say you??
Quote:
Quote:
btw,

I do have OK computer availability this weekend after all!

Also, Moving these events to the new page for easy viewing!?

It was correct about Scott's Anaconda Plan! It was implemented, & was the blueprint for successfully defeating the Confederacy! What say you??

Checking 8-18 in history we see the following topics! Comments? Anyone??

1227 Genghis Khan died at age 55, he used horrific military policies to expand from Mongolia, his son would conquer even more of Asia! What's your take on the Khans??

1896 Butch Cassidy brings over 200 outlaws together into the Wild Bunch! Comments on the lawlessness of the wild west!? Anyone??

1920 the 19th Amendment passes, women can finally vote! Has it made a difference in policy??

1969 Woodstock attracts some 400,000 strong, sex starved, drug addicted dare we say hippies!? BTW I'll have what their having!? ☺

Any other new topics!?
Regards,
MD



& in 8-20 in history, the following, comments.Anyone??

1619 the English bring African Slaves to Jamestown, showing Colonies were purely for profit, & dooming complete freedom in the America's!? What say you??

1741, Vitus Bering discovers Alaska for the Russians, It should have been British, & later Canada's!? Any takes on this? & what of the 1st Nations??

1794 Gen. Mad Anthony Wayne wins the Battle of Fallen Timbers?? Comments on it? Anyone?

1833 Benjamin Harrison (R) wins the Presidency despite losing the popular vote by.almost 100,000 votes to Grover Cleveland! Damn the electoral college! What. Say you?? Any way Harrison.was born on this date!!

1914 the Germans capture Brussels Belgium in.WWI, where were the Allies? Comments?

1968 the Soviets invade Czechoslovakia! has anything changed.in these times, regarding Russia's aggressiveness??. What say you?

1975 the US launches Viking I to Mars!.what did they discover? Anyone??

BTW George, thanks for the great post on WWI battle of Dieppe, continue discussing!?

Summer you got to love.it!

Regards,
MD



----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/20/2022 8:13:40 PM
On this day in 1940, Leon Trotsky, living at the time on the outskirts of Mexico City, was stabbed with an ice pick by one Ramóne Mercado, a Spanish communist. Trotsky would die the next day. Mercador, brought to trial, received a 20-year sentence.

I know little about Trotsky and less about Mercador. From the little I have read about Trotsky or of his writings (chief of which is Struggle Against Fascism in Germany, a collection of his writings on various aspects of that topic written during the 1930s and published under that title in the US in 1971), he might have been a better successor to Lenin than Stalin appears to have been. His ideological roots were with the mensheviks during the great Socialist gatherings in the first decade of the 20th century, and he never seemed to lose his belief that there was room for democracy-style voting within a socialist state. 

He had become close to Lenin during Lenin’s time in London, and was, IIRC, waiting in St. Petersburg to greet Lenin’s train. He was central to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk; later, he was charged with creating the Red Army and defeating the Whites and other dissident groups. With Stalin taking control of the Communist Party (and the USSR) after Lenin’s death in 1924, Trotsky’s influence waned dramatically, since he and Stalin have very different views of the nation’s direction. He was sent to the camps in Siberia, and then exiled from all of Russia. After some travelling, he was offered asylum in Mexico.

While there, he survived an attempted assassination by machine-gun, but a man with an ice-pick managed to kill him. It was never proved (that I know of) that Mercador was a paid assassin of the Soviet Union. The assumption was at the time and remains to this day that this was Stalin ridding himself of his greatest threat.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/22/2022 7:28:20 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1794 Gen. Mad Anthony Wayne wins the Battle of Fallen Timbers?? Comments on it? Anyone?


Look at the time period. Eleven years after the Treaty of Paris of 1783 and the end of the rebellion of the 13 colonies, the Revolutionary War had concluded, altering British plans to govern their colonies including the former French colonies acquired in 1763. The Royal Proclamation of 1763 had established the "proclamation line" at the Appalachian Mountains and 13 colonies were forbidden to settle beyond that line. Some of those were people who had land speculation interests beyond the mountain.



With the Treaty of Paris of 1783, the British plans to carve out a large section of land for the Indians to the south of the Ohio Valley were invalidated. The white settlers from the 13 colonies were now eager to pore into the territory and this led to greater conflicts with the tribes remaining in the Northwest Territories of the new USA. Their deal for land with the British was no more and so they would have to fight the Americans for Indian lands.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 was confirmed or supported by the Québec Act of 1774 which expanded the size of the colony of Québec and indicated again that a massive swath of land would be reserved for the First Nations.



The Royal Proclamation was a detailed document and only a portion of it addressed the needs of the First Nations who had allied with Great Britain in defeating the French. Below is the section that pertains to the First Nations and the lands promised to them.

Quote:
nd whereas it is just and reasonable, and essential to our Interest, and the Security of our Colonies, that the several Nations or Tribes of Indians with whom We are connected, and who live under our Protection, should not be molested or disturbed in the Possession of such Parts of Our Dominions and Territories as, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are reserved to them. or any of them, as their Hunting Grounds. — We do therefore, with the Advice of our Privy Council, declare it to be our Royal Will and Pleasure. that no Governor or Commander in Chief in any of our Colonies of Quebec, East Florida. or West Florida, do presume, upon any Pretence whatever, to grant Warrants of Survey, or pass any Patents for Lands beyond the Bounds of their respective Governments as described in their Commissions: as also that no Governor or Commander in Chief in any of our other Colonies or Plantations in America do presume for the present, and until our further Pleasure be known, to grant Warrants of Survey, or pass Patents for any Lands beyond the Heads or Sources of any of the Rivers which fall into the Atlantic Ocean from the West and North West, or upon any Lands whatever, which, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us as aforesaid, are reserved to the said Indians, or any of them.

And We do further declare it to be Our Royal Will and Pleasure, for the present as aforesaid, to reserve under our Sovereignty, Protection, and Dominion, for the use of the said Indians, all the Lands and Territories not included within the Limits of Our said Three new Governments, or within the Limits of the Territory granted to the Hudson's Bay Company, as also all the Lands and Territories lying to the Westward of the Sources of the Rivers which fall into the Sea from the West and North West as aforesaid.

And We do hereby strictly forbid, on Pain of our Displeasure, all our loving Subjects from making any Purchases or Settlements whatever, or taking Possession of any of the Lands above reserved. without our especial leave and Licence for that Purpose first obtained.
And We do further strictly enjoin and require all Persons whatever who have either wilfully or inadvertently seated themselves upon any Lands within the Countries above described or upon any other Lands which, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are still reserved to the said Indians as aforesaid, forthwith to remove themselves from such Settlements.


The new country of the USA pursued the defeat of this loose confederation of First Nations (Northwest Indian Confederation) who coveted the lands in the Northwest Territory promised to them by the British.

Note that these First Nations were also former allies of the 13 colonists who wanted the British to defeat the French and their Indian allies who had plagued the 13 colonists for years.

The FN's fought back but the Battle of Fallen Timbers is considered to be the nail in the coffin of the First Nations in the territory. General Anthony Wayne negotiated a treaty with the Indian confederation that saw the First Nations ceding all the lands that would become most of Ohio, Michigan, Illinois and Indiana. We note that the British who still occupied forts in the territory did not come to the aid of their former allies. The British had yet to abandon many forts in the Northwest Territory and would not until the signing of Jay's Treaty in 1794, not coincidentally at about the same time that Wayne signed his treaty with the defeated First Nations. It was a sad betrayal by the British and the Americans.

The First Nations felt betrayed by their British allies in wars against the French and who had promised them this land and the new USA had no intention of honouring the terms of the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and especially the Québec Act of 1774 which would confine them to the east side of the Appalachians. The First Nations were abandoned and mistreated after the war.

Of note, the Royal Proclamation of 1763 still influences politics and relations with Canada's First Nations. The document has influenced policies and procedures involved with treaty making with FN's in Canada and even today we still have disputes over old treaties that the FN's assert have not been honoured according to terms laid out in the proclamation.

Cheers,

George



Hi George,

Great reply, but on your map the very far north is called Ruperts land! Ruperts Land? What's Ruperts Land???

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/22/2022 10:40:26 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

Great reply, but on your map the very far north is called Ruperts land! Ruperts Land? What's Ruperts Land???

MD


You may see from the map that Rupert's Land is a large piece of land. In fact, that territory comprises about 1/3 of the area of modern Canada.

In 1670 the Hudson's Bay Company (HBC) was granted a charter by the crown to open a fur trading market in the area called Rupert's Land.

Prince Rupert was an investor and the first governor of the HBC.

Wherever the HBC established itself, it became the de facto government of the territory and so it was with Rupert's Land. HBC explored beyond the Rupert's Land boundaries which were basically the Hudson's Bay watershed. They also established themselves on the west coast, in the areas that would become British Columbia, Washington state and Oregon state.

So HBC ruled Rupert's Land until 1870, a two hundred year run. In 1867, the confederation of provinces occurred to create the Dominion of Canada.

Alarmed by the expansionist nature of the US, Canada was anxious to add Rupert's Land to its land mass. It is my understanding that HBC was willing to sell Rupert's Land to the highest bidder which of course, would have been the US.

But Great Britain was opposed to that and encouraged, shall we say, HBC to sell the land to Canada. GB even floated a loan to the new country to allow it to purchase the land for £300,000 which would be $1.5 million CDN. It was an important purchase as it somewhat stymied US interests to move into what is now the Canadian west.

It is interesting to note that the charter given to "“Governor and Company of Adventurers of England Trading into Hudson’s Bay” (later HBC) may not have happened without the influence of two French Canadian explorers and entrepreneurs, Pierre Radisson and his partner Groseilliers. These two had been exploring in the bay area and could see that it was rich with fur bearing animals and they originally tried to pitch a proposal to France to send people to Hudson's Bay to set up trading posts.

Rebuffed, Radisson headed to England and gave his pitch which was better received. Prince Rupert and others convinced King Charles II to send ships to Hudson's Bay. That ship returned one year later laden with furs and the HBC was born.

My province of Ontario acquired some of Rupert's Land when the federal government expanded the sub-national administrative provinces. So did Québec and the western provinces extending to near the Rockies were carved partly out of Rupert's Land. And the North West Territories (and Nunavut) are in territory that was Rupert's Land.



Rupert's Land comprised 3.9 million sq. km of land beginning on the Atlantic Ocean to the Rockies and north to the Arctic Circle.

This area is 5 times larger than the country of France. (source: Canadian Encyclopaedia)

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/22/2022 8:31:24 PM
So George,

Basically a fur trading business HBC owned 1/3 of Canada!? They, Canada, then purchased it for @ 1.5 million Canadian dollars! Not to good at math!? Would you say that was a better deal than the US purchasing Alaska or purchasing Louisiana??

$$$$$$$
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/22/2022 9:34:47 PM
Quote:
So George,

Basically a fur trading business HBC owned 1/3 of Canada!? They, Canada, then purchased it for @ 1.5 million Canadian dollars! Not to good at math!? Would you say that was a better deal than the US purchasing Alaska or purchasing Louisiana??

$$$$$$$
MD


Rupert's land (3.9 million sq. km) was considerably larger than the Louisiana purchase (2.1 million sq. km).

The Louisiana Purchase cost $15 million dollars. On the face of it, the Rupert's Land deal was far better though the Louisiana Purchase was a steal. I should add that the Hudson's Bay Co. had evaluated the land at $40 million. The British government essentially forced them to give it away to Canada.

I don't think that a price per acre is that significant. Consider that the land within the Louisiana Purchase is far more arable and liveable.

The Louisiana Purchase allowed the US to expand more easily to the west without challenges from other nations. The purchase more than doubled the size of the US.

Rupert's Land as part of Canada assured the new nation that it had rightful ownership of this territory and that Canada should not receive challenges over it. And it also served to expand the size of Canada overnight. As mentioned, the Rupert's Land area comprises 1/3 of the total land mass of modern day Canada.

So a more relevant question for me is how significant was the purchase of Louisiana and Rupert's Land to the development of the US and of Canada. Without giving it a lot of thought, I think that both purchases were very significant though the purchase of Rupert's Land came with a sense of urgency. Canada needed that purchase to ensure that it did not lose it to the US.

I don't think that the Louisiana Purchase was necessary to the establishment of US sovereignty. The US had that so the purchase was a windfall. For Canada to survive, I think that the Rupert's Land purchase was critical.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2022 4:47:22 PM
Hi George,

Your real point as far as land values go,it's as the real estate agent says "location, location, location!!? So the Louisiana Purchase is probably the best deal?? Anyone??

Moving on to 8-23, these events happened, all posts welcome!!? Hey MHO, comments??

1305 William Wallace is executed, He of course was a Scot resistance leader, the English king cruely did it!? What was his legacy?? anyone!? Also a major movie on it with Mel Gibson, Brave Heart, was it well done??

1514 the Ottomans, defeated the Iranians at Chaldiran! How did this battle influence the area!? Anyone??

1927 Sacco & Vanzetti were executed for murder, in a trial! That many say they were inocent!? & Were they biasly treated? They were Italians? What say you??

1939 the German-Soviet Non Aggression Pact was signed, did both Hitler, & Stalin knew it would not last? Who was the biggest instigator?? I say Adolf! What say you? Why did they even propose it? If they meant to break it?? Comments?

2011 M. Quadaffi's reign of terror ends in Lybia!.How did it come about?? Who was worse Quadaffi or Saddam Hussien? Anyone??

Any other new posts??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2022 8:11:32 PM
1939 the German-Soviet Non Aggression Pact was signed, did both Hitler, & Stalin know it would not last? Who was the biggest instigator?? I say Adolf! What say you? Why did they even propose it?

At the time, both Germany and Russia needed such a pact. Germany’s need may have been more urgent, because the mobilization against Poland was sufficiently active that an agreement with the Soviets over spheres of influence in the east was all but a requirement for German war plans. The Soviets were in a process of rebuilding their military forces after the great purges of 1937, so they were open to any agreement which would keep German attack threats to a minimum.

I would think it impossible that Soviet Foreign Minister Litvinov had not read at least one version of Mein Kampf. As a Jew, he would have understood the anti-semitism being presented; as a Soviet official, he would have been certain to inform Stalin of the German concept of “Lebensraum”. Nazi Germany, despite it’s ideological distaste for Bolshevism, could not afford to indulge in a two-front war. I doubt either Hitler or Stalin saw this as an agreement that would be honoured; they both would have seen it as a mutually supportive stop-gap. Worth noting, however, is that from 23 Aug 1939 to 22 June 1941 both companies largely respected the terms and conditions of the treaty and the various codicils added after the initial signing.

As to who was the instigator, I too believe that would be Hitler. God knows that rather low-level discussions were ongoing between Russia and Britain for some time, with the Brits maintaining discussions but not anxious to sign a pact with Soviet communism. From the British point-of-view, a non-aggression pact (or something similar) would provide a circular security barrier around Germany (think WW1), but the idea of making pacts with Bolsheviks was anathema. In addition, there was a huge pro-German movement (or at least inclination) at Whitehall, which remained somewhat strong even after the clear collapse of German promises in Czechoslovakia in early 1939.

It was Stalin, of course, who replaced Litvinov (a Jew) with Molotov, making discussions between the two nations theoretically less contentious. It was Hitler, however, who was ready to engage his highest-level diplomats as rapidly as possible.

Cheers
Brian G.

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2022 9:26:58 PM
Quote:
Your real point as far as land values go,it's as the real estate agent says "location, location, location!!? So the Louisiana Purchase is probably the best deal?? Anyone??


I wouldn't agree with that necessarily, MD. Both the Louisiana Purchase and Rupert's Land were important to the expansion plans of the nations. So I am not sure what you mean by "location, location, location".

I hope that I didn't mischaracterize the Rupert's Land territory. It is so large that it is comprised of several different types of geography and climates. Canada is a resource rich nation and it isn't only fur bearing animals that made it an important purchase for Canada. Gold, diamonds, oil, natural gas, uranium, potash and timber. Water, lots of water too. And some of the most fertile land in Canada is found in what was Rupert's Land.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2022 9:31:52 PM
Quote:
Y2011 M. Quadaffi's reign of terror ends in Lybia!.How did it come about?? Who was worse Quadaffi or Saddam Hussien? Anyone??


I would be more inclined to ask which military intervention was the worst decision, Libya in 2011 or Iraq in 2003. Perhaps we should assess the motivations to intervene in these two countries.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2022 9:04:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Your real point as far as land values go,it's as the real estate agent says "location, location, location!!? So the Louisiana Purchase is probably the best deal?? Anyone??


I wouldn't agree with that necessarily, MD. Both the Louisiana Purchase and Rupert's Land were important to the expansion plans of the nations. So I am not sure what you mean by "location, location, location".

I hope that I didn't mischaracterize the Rupert's Land territory. It is so large that it is comprised of several different types of geography and climates. Canada is a resource rich nation and it isn't only fur bearing animals that made it an important purchase for Canada. Gold, diamonds, oil, natural gas, uranium, potash and timber. Water, lots of water too. And some of the most fertile land in Canada is found in what was Rupert's Land.

Cheers,

George


Hi George,

The location, location, location, is a common Real estate term, saying that where the land is located increases it's value., I just meant that the Louisiana Purchase was more attractive to the general population because of it's more temperate climate! But when you consider natural resources, ect.. That can change!?

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2022 11:08:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Y2011 M. Quadaffi's reign of terror ends in Lybia!.How did it come about?? Who was worse Quadaffi or Saddam Hussien? Anyone??


I would be more inclined to ask which military intervention was the worst decision, Libya in 2011 or Iraq in 2003. Perhaps we should assess the motivations to intervene in these two countries.

Cheers,

George


To my mind, George, the worse decision of the two was Iraq in 2003.

They were both bad, but while the later one was confounded by delusion, the earlier one was predicated on deceit, and subsequent denial, which rendered it uniquely unconscionable.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2022 9:16:13 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Y2011 M. Quadaffi's reign of terror ends in Lybia!.How did it come about?? Who was worse Quadaffi or Saddam Hussien? Anyone??


I would be more inclined to ask which military intervention was the worst decision, Libya in 2011 or Iraq in 2003. Perhaps we should assess the motivations to intervene in these two countries.

Cheers,

George


To my mind, George, the worse decision of the two was Iraq in 2003.

They were both bad, but while the later one was confounded by delusion, the earlier one was predicated on deceit, and subsequent denial, which rendered it uniquely unconscionable.

Regards, Phil


You're right, Phil. The invasion of Iraq was hard to justify I think, in retrospect.

The UN passed a "no fly zone" resolution in Libya in 2011. Ostensibly, it was to protect civilians while the civil war was on going. But it was NATO that elected to enforce the zone. I always wondered how this became a NATO operation. The UN charter has a section in which it says that the UN has a responsibility to protect a people from genocide. That's good but why did NATO countries volunteer to assist?

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2022 8:22:10 AM
Quote:
Hi everyone,

Well these events happened, on _8-23, all posts welcome!!? Hey MHO, comments, past or present??

1305 William Wallace is executed, He of course was a Scot resistance leader, the English king cruely did it!? What was his legacy?? anyone!? Also a major movie on it with Mel Gibson, Brave Heart, was it well done??

1514 the Ottomans, defeated the Iranians at Chaldiran! How did this battle influence the area!? Anyone??

1927 Sacco & Vanzetti were executed for murder, in a trial! That many say they were inocent!? & Were they biasly treated? They were Italians? What say you??

1939 the German-Soviet Non Aggression Pact was signed, did both Hitler, & Stalin knew it would not last? Who was the biggest instigator?? I say Adolf! What say you? Why did they even propose it? If they meant to break it?? thanks Brian, for the Comments?

2011 M. Quadaffi's reign of terror ends in Lybia!.How did it come about?? Who was worse Quadaffi or Saddam Hussien? Anyone?? George, & Phil good takes, you might ask Kai why NATO got involved?

& 9-24 in history, these?

79ce, what's ce, mean? Anyone?? Mt. Vesuvius erupts wiping out Pompeii, I remember that even today they are finding whole bodies of victims! Preserved? Comments anyone?

410 the Visagoths take Rome, ending the Empire!? Why were so many uncivilized groups ( can you list them?) attacking Europe at this time? And really when you look at it Rome was uncivilized too!?? What say you?

1814 the British take Washington DC, & try to burn the capital! What say you? Invading armies should not destroy culture? & that includes all armies, even the US!?? ( thinking of Toronto!?)

1949 NATO comes into existence! How is it doing today? Like against Russian aggression!? Anyone??

2006 they say Pluto is no longer a planet!? Next they will say the Sun is no longer a star? Why isn't Pluto a Planet any more?? Comments?

2021 the Rolling Stones drummer Charlie Watts dies! Where did the Stones rate as A rock band? Many say only #2 to the Beatles!? What say you?

& today Christmas in August, 8-25, check these out!?

1530 Ivan the terrible becomes the 1st Czar of Russia! Why was he called the terrible?? What say you??

2012 Neil Armstrong the 1st man to walk on the moon dies at 82! Where were you when this fantastic event occurred? (1969). It was incredible watching even on a black & white tv, at least for me?? Comments?

1944 Paris is liberated! How many different allied countries marched their troops into Paris??
Comments anyone??

Any other new posts??
Regards,
MD


Hey MHOers, lots of topics on varied subjects listed above, it would be great if you don't post to much, to make a comment!? Let everybody know your still out there!? ☺
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2022 10:44:58 AM
Quote:
1949 NATO comes into existence! How is it doing today? Like against Russian aggression!? Anyone??


Russian has not attacked a NATO affiliated country.

If it had and Article 5 was invoked, Russia would be facing a strong enemy in NATO.

And if Putin is trying to rebuild a ring of buffer states on the Russian border as the former USSR did, then he has failed. Both Sweden and Finland have walked a tightrope for decades making sure that they are armed but remaining non-aligned.

Shortly they will be members of NATO. NATO troops have been moved into member states that border Russia to assist those states in assuring that a deterrent to aggression by Russia is maintained.


I think that NATO is still a relevant and important organization that protects all of those countries that are affiliated. And I believe that it has been given a shot of adrenaline that has revived the old alliance. And so the defences of member nations on the border with Russia are being supported. The NATO state of readiness has been raised. The high readiness Reaction Force has been mobilized.

I am not sure that a co-ordinated global strategy has been sufficiently developed by NATO but I still feel safer knowing that my country is a member state.


Cheers,

George



Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2022 2:19:12 PM
Whenever I hear the word NATO, an image comes to my mind of two battleships meeting in the North Atlantic, with two of the greatest leaders of the Second World War - Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt - getting together to agree the formulation of a new world order. This was in mid August 1941, before the USA was in the war, but the sense of joint purpose and harmony of goals was very apparent. They signed up to something called The North Atlantic Charter, and at the conclusion of the meeting the entire assemblage, along with the two main men, sang that favourite hymn Onward Christian Soldiers : I find it moving to watch the old footage that was filmed more than eighty years ago. More poignant still considering that many of the British sailors singing along were dead when their battleship was sunk by Japanese aircraft a few months later. Was it HMS Repulse, or Prince of Wales ?

This, I like to think, was the authentic origin of NATO.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2022 8:52:47 PM
Quote:
“[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"[span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"1939 the German-Soviet Non Aggression Pact was signed, did both Hitler, & Stalin know it would not last? Who was the biggest instigator?? I say Adolf! What say you? Why did they even propose it?[/span]”[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]

[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"At the time, both Germany and Russia needed such a pact. Germany’s need may have been more urgent, because the mobilization against Poland was sufficiently active that an agreement with the Soviets over spheres of influence in the east was all but a requirement for German war plans. The Soviets were in a process of rebuilding their military forces after the great purges of 1937, so they were open to any agreement which would keep German attack threats to a minimum.[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"I would think it impossible that Soviet Foreign Minister Litvinov had not read at least one version of [span style="font-style: italic;"Mein Kampf[/span]. As a Jew, he would have understood the anti-semitism being presented; as a Soviet official, he would have been certain to inform Stalin of the German concept of “Lebensraum”. Nazi Germany, despite it’s ideological distaste for Bolshevism, could not afford to indulge in a two-front war. I doubt either Hitler or Stalin saw this as an agreement that would be honoured; they both would have seen it as a mutually supportive stop-gap. Worth noting, however, is that from 23 Aug 1939 to 22 June 1941 both companies largely respected the terms and conditions of the treaty and the various codicils added after the initial signing.[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"As to who was the instigator, I too believe that would be Hitler. God knows that rather low-level discussions were ongoing between Russia and Britain for some time, with the Brits maintaining discussions but not anxious to sign a pact with Soviet communism. From the British point-of-view, a non-aggression pact (or something similar) would provide a circular security barrier around Germany (think WW1), but the idea of making pacts with Bolsheviks was anathema. In addition, there was a huge pro-German movement (or at least inclination) at Whitehall, which remained somewhat strong even after the clear collapse of German promises in Czechoslovakia in early 1939.[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"It was Stalin, of course, who replaced Litvinov (a Jew) with Molotov, making discussions between the two nations theoretically less contentious. It was Hitler, however, who was ready to engage his highest-level diplomats as rapidly as possible.[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Cheers[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Brian G.[/span]

Hi Brian, or MHO,

What was the story of some of the royal family being pro nazi Germany, so much so that Rudolf Hess Nazi leader gave himself up in Scotland after flying a German fighter there, & surrendering himself up!? He indicated he expected to be well recieved??

Definitely a unbelievable story?
What do you know about this pro Nazi feelings in Great Britain??

Cheers
MD

BTW why when I try to copy Brian's original post do I get this extra gibberish??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2022 9:07:15 AM
Quote:
Whenever I hear the word NATO, an image comes to my mind of two battleships meeting in the North Atlantic, with two of the greatest leaders of the Second World War - Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt - getting together to agree the formulation of a new world order. This was in mid August 1941, before the USA was in the war, but the sense of joint purpose and harmony of goals was very apparent. They signed up to something called The North Atlantic Charter, and at the conclusion of the meeting the entire assemblage, along with the two main men, sang that favourite hymn Onward Christian Soldiers : I find it moving to watch the old footage that was filmed more than eighty years ago. More poignant still considering that many of the British sailors singing along were dead when their battleship was sunk by Japanese aircraft a few months later. Was it HMS Repulse, or Prince of Wales ?

This, I like to think, was the authentic origin of NATO.

Regards, Phil


Hi Phil,

It was HMS Prince of Wales! Terrible to think that a few months later she would be sunk by aircraft of the IJN! The British were not yet ready for naval air war!? What say you??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2022 1:30:10 PM
Quote:
It was HMS Prince of Wales! Terrible to think that a few months later she would be sunk by aircraft of the IJN! The British were not yet ready for naval air war!? What say you??


Two war ships were not sent out to that area of the Pacific anticipating that they were going to defeat the Japanese. I believe that they were sent as a deterrent to show the flag. I do not know whether the British or the RN truly felt that the Japanese would assume a less threatening posture with the knowledge that the RN was coming with HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse as a vanguard.

Churchill wrote in one of his books that he was aware of the weaknesses of the British military in the Pacific and that all that was available to them was to attempt to deter the Japanese from aggressive action.

Quote:
Prince of Wales and Repulse had been sent to Singapore, he wrote, “to exercise that kind of vague menace which capital ships of the highest quality whose whereabouts is unknown can impose upon all hostile naval calculations.


I believe that these two ships were the first of the war to be sunk by attack from the air. They did not have the capacity to dispatch a fleet to the Pacific. There was already a war on and convoys to protect in the Atlantic.

It was very sad that so many men died for what amounted to a political ploy. They did their duty as commanded by their superiors.

Of note, the defence of Hong Kong was also somewhat of a sham. There was no way that that garrison was going to stop the Japanese.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2022 3:16:19 PM
Quote:
Of note, the defence of Hong Kong was also somewhat of a sham. There was no way that that garrison was going to stop the Japanese.

Cheers,

George


I beg to differ with you George, the "defence" of Hong Kong was an absolute sham as was Rabaul.

Regarding Prince of Wales and Repulse, this is one of those instances when showing the colors allowed the enemy a fixed mark for targeting.


----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2022 7:30:12 PM
Phil, If you so wish, check back two weeks or so on this thread. On 13 Aug I post on the anniversary of the heaviest lifting day of the Berlin Air Lift; on 14 Aug I talk about the Atlantic Charter meeting between FDR and WSC in Placentia Bay.

I note both posts because I suggest in the Berlin Air Lift post that this is one of the post-war successes which led most directly to the formation of NATO. In the Atlantic Charter post, I suggest this was the basis for the Charter of the United Nations. That may reflect a difference of opinion, but of a rather minor nature. To consider an incident the forebear of either the UN or NATO is recognition at the highest level, IMHO.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2022 8:41:09 PM
MD, to your “What was the story of some of the royal family being pro nazi Germany, so much so that Rudolf Hess Nazi leader gave himself up in Scotland after flying a German fighter there, & surrendering himself up!? He indicated he expected to be well recieved??

In all honesty, I can speak only to one member of the royal family being somewhat in thrall to Hitler and his Third Reich. That is the Duke of Windsor. Before you say, who is he, he was for a short time (20 Jan – 11 Dec 1936) known as Edward VIII, who abdicated in order to marry twice-divorced Wallis Simpson. His younger brother, who became George VI with his brother’s abdication, established the Dukedom of Windsor specifically for his older brother; these defined his relation to the Crown, questions of protocol, restrictions on his political activities and other obligations he owed the Crown. I think to claim that the royal family was riddled with Nazis is very wrong.

There were, however, many other supporters of Hitler’s Germany in Great Britain, ranging from working class to titled. Sir Oswald Mosely, with his BUF (British Union of Fascists) Party, black-shirted fascist troops and active provocations against Jews and Communists, is an extreme example. The Mitford Girls (one of which married Mosely and still shares many of his views, another of which attempted suicide in Germany with the onset of war) were – some, but certainly not all of them – drawn either to Hitler or to fascist tendencies. Hell, even hard-pressed working-class folks were drawn for various reasons to ideas espoused by Nazi Germany.

I have photos taken by a Brit in Danzig during that final week before the invasion of Poland. His comments on the photo’s reverse focus on the fact that the Germans present are not armed, but only standing for German needs. That Brit was trapped in Danzig by the war. When he finally got back to England (whole different story) he joined the RN. He admired much of what Hitler had done for Germany, but he chose to defend his country. 

I can’t say for sure, but that was the case for many folks who had “made nice” to Germany during the 1930s. There remained, however, many for whom Nazi hatred of Bolshevism and socialism, combined with Nazi cultural values (certainly, Europeans over Slavs) and their interest in commercial and industrial agreements, made them appealing. The “Jewish Question” was an issue, but I would suggest not as big an issue then as it has become. Read some inter-war British fiction; even Dorothy Sayers writes about them only as archetypical.

Nonetheless, Hess should not be used as any model of reason, for any reason at any time. His ill-fated flight remains the muddle of myth-making, but even though he was flying into “friendly” territory, he was flying into a nation committed to war against the nation he represented. If he believed that there were members of the Royals who would be able to protect him and force government to listen to whatever argument he came to deliver, then he misunderstood the British parliamentary system.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/27/2022 11:48:19 AM
Quote:
Phil, If you so wish, check back two weeks or so on this thread. On 13 Aug I post on the anniversary of the heaviest lifting day of the Berlin Air Lift; on 14 Aug I talk about the Atlantic Charter meeting between FDR and WSC in Placentia Bay.


I note both posts because I suggest in the Berlin Air Lift post that this is one of the post-war successes which led most directly to the formation of NATO. In the Atlantic Charter post, I suggest this was the basis for the Charter of the United Nations. That may reflect a difference of opinion, but of a rather minor nature. To consider an incident the forebear of either the UN or NATO is recognition at the highest level, IMHO.


Cheers
Brian G


Guys,

I remember reading about allied planes dropping candy to kids in East Berlin as they were landing in West Berlin!?

Definitely cool!
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/27/2022 12:33:00 PM
"I remember reading about allied planes dropping candy to kids in East Berlin as they were landing in West Berlin!?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Halvorsen
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/27/2022 3:44:14 PM
Quote:
Phil, If you so wish, check back two weeks or so on this thread. On 13 Aug I post on the anniversary of the heaviest lifting day of the Berlin Air Lift; on 14 Aug I talk about the Atlantic Charter meeting between FDR and WSC in Placentia Bay.


I note both posts because I suggest in the Berlin Air Lift post that this is one of the post-war successes which led most directly to the formation of NATO. In the Atlantic Charter post, I suggest this was the basis for the Charter of the United Nations. That may reflect a difference of opinion, but of a rather minor nature. To consider an incident the forebear of either the UN or NATO is recognition at the highest level, IMHO.


Cheers
Brian G

Yes, Brian : and check back I did !

You did indeed make a reference to the day, and gave a rendition of its significance, and I feel ungracious in failure to acknowledge.

That’s the trouble with the thread : there’s so much going on that one can dip in and out, so to speak, and miss a contribution that a discerning poster made earlier.

The evocation of that Placenta Bay meeting, in print and on the screen, always moved me. It still does.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/27/2022 7:40:23 PM
Quote:
Guys,

I remember reading about allied planes dropping candy to kids in East Berlin as they were landing in West Berlin!?

Definitely cool!
MD


No MD. It was to West Berlin kids. Colonel Gail Halvorsen - the chocolate bomber or Uncle Wiggly Wings to the kids.

[Read More]

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/27/2022 8:32:09 PM
Phil, I agree. Forums of this sort will always mean that some posts which may have been of interest might be missed. If the forum is active it becomes even more difficult. When I first signed on to HMO, the threads gave an indication of  who was answering to whom, at least roughly, through a simple process of intentification. It’s an old system, but often still used in online commentary sections of news coverage. At the time, it seemed to work effectively. It would probably seem to be cumbersome now.

I certainly wasn’t looking for recognition of my earlier posts. I just didn’t want to rewrite earlier posts on a very similar couple of subjects.

Cheers
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/27/2022 8:45:34 PM
Trevor, you say: “No MD. It was to West Berlin kids. Colonel Gail Halvorsen - the chocolate bomber or Uncle Wiggly Wings to the kids.

Yet this is a persistent story, in one form or another. In the version I heard, the drop was a standard one during the flight in while over Russian controlled space, not over East Berlin itself. I always nay-said the story; it just rang too much of the kind, down-home boys who flew for Uncle Sam.

The Berlin Air Lift was a no walk in the park. It was a confrontation right on the brink of open warfare. Only an idiot would spend unnecessary time at low level over what was essentially enemy-held territory.

Cheers,
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/27/2022 10:06:56 PM
On this day in 1939, the Heinkel He-178 had it’s native flight. This was the first flight of a turbo-jet powered a/c, an incredible but unimpressive display of forward-thinking aeronautics. On 20 June 1939 Heinkel’s He-176, powered by a liquid-fuelled rocket engine, had become – IIUC – the first non-propeller driven a/c, but it too was sufficiently unimpressive to be rejected by Göring and the Luftwaffe. The flight of the He-178 came just days after the signing of the German-Soviet non-aggression pact, and just days before the invasion of Poland. Clearly, the Luftwaffe was sufficiently comfortable with its current aircraft that it decided not to invest in the future, at least as represented by these a/c. 

Was that a huge mistake?

In truth, there were few outstanding data to make these a/c stand out. Speed was good but not outstanding; flight times were short; flight characteristics were less than maximum. But some support to Heinkel and other a/c developers as early as 1939 may have brought forward the development of such as the Me-262 by as much as 2 years, and that may have made a huge difference in the defence of the Reich when the USAAF returned to German skies in 1943.

Cheers
Brian G



----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2022 11:21:42 AM
Hi Brian,

Just curious as to how fast the Heinkel was compared to the fastest RAF war plane?? Also what armament would it carry? In combat would it hold marked advantages, if it overcame it's quick fuel useage??

Thanks, & cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2022 1:58:39 PM
Quote:
Hi Brian,

Just curious as to how fast the Heinkel was compared to the fastest RAF war plane?? Also what armament would it carry? In combat would it hold marked advantages, if it overcame it's quick fuel useage??

Thanks, & cheers,
MD


Wouldn't it be more informative to compare the Heinkel 178 to the British Gloster 28/39 if we are comparing German and British aircraft? Jet to jet?

The HE 178 (Aug. 1939) preceded the Gloster 28/39 (May 1941) by nearly two years so both were part of the early experimentation with jet propulsion fighters, weren't they?

I don't know how much the Heinkel research influenced the development of the Messerschmidt 262 but the ME262 did see combat. The HE178 did not.

I think that the Gloster Meteor 1 flew combat missions just after the ME 262 and so far as I know, the two planes never met in combat.

What criteria would you like to use to compare these aircraft, MD? Or did you want to compare the HE178 to the fastest prop planes?

Cheers,

George

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2022 2:32:12 PM
Brian,

You could write what I know about aircraft on the back of a postage stamp, but I select your concluding comments to cite, and offer a suggestion:

that may have made a huge difference in the defence of the Reich

Hitler wasn’t interested in defending, he wanted to mount offensive warfare, and anything that implied a defensive posture was anathema to him.

I state that with diffidence, and might make myself look silly, but it does seem to fit the pattern.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2022 9:26:12 PM
Phil, you offer part of my post and then a comment:
‘“that may have made a huge difference in the defence of the Reich” 

Hitler wasn’t interested in defending, he wanted to mount offensive warfare, and anything that implied a defensive posture was anathema to him.’

Good point, and certainly worth considering as the war turned against Germany after Stalingrad. I guess my argument would be that German confidence in victory held relatively firm until the German “Heimat” began to be assaulted in a meaningful way. During those yearly years, we have Göring’s “if English bombs fall on German soil, you can call me Meier”; we have Hitler’s rhetorical “Er kommt! Er Kommt!” speech.

Eventually, of course, the tide began to change. All of Hitler’s desires, all his concepts of German warriors engaged, could not stop the growing assault of enemies he had accrued through 3 years of battle. If we need a date for that, the first Millennial Raid (Cologne, 30/31.05.1942) is as good as any. I admit I’m focusing on the west here; Stalingrad was relatively old news by the time of the Millennium Raids. But in the post you took my quote from, I mentioned late 1943, when the USAAF resumed major assaults on Germany after the disaster of the Schweinfurt raid of late 1942. I was thinking of the very direct link between Luftwaffe a/c and the bombing structure employed by the US Eighth. 

The Luftwaffe battle against RAF Bomber Command was, of course, a night battle from mid-1941 on. The “Kammhuber Line”, a ponderous but effective line of Himmelbett stations, balanced wins and losses as various defensive techniques on each side were developed. But the daylight raids by the USAAF were more primitive. The US a/c were there in their stacked boxes; the German Luftwaffe sent a variety of a/c to face their flights. 

That was beyond Hitler’s will; that was beyond Göring’s jewish slur. Germany entered a defensive war. My only point is that had the Luftwaffe’s response to early rocket- and turbojet-powered been less negative, there have been not just Me-262s but some other rapid a/c at a time when they were needed for the defence of the Reich.

If your comment is simply the rational comment that Hitler in 1939 was not thinking in terms of defence, I agree. Why would he support defensive weapons? But there was nothing either offensive or defensive about these alternately-powered a/c. I’m afraid my own shift from 1939 to 1943/44 might have misdirected you.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 12:42:29 AM
On this day in 1968, all hell broke loose as police attacked demonstrators on the streets outside the centre holding the Democratic Presidential Election. IIRC, this was a police induced battle, which led to members of the public who were victims of assault.

Things are, I admit, a bit hazy. I was returning from a trip to Vancouver, heading to Hamilton Ont. to resume studies. I was travelling by VW with an Aussie mate; my wife and kids were to follow by air in early Sept. We decided to cut through the the northern US, turning south at Winnipeg and aiming for Detroit. We were held up at the border, accused of heading to Chicago to cause mayhem. Canada was, at the time, a haven for US folks evading service in Vietnam, so I was suspected of being part of the rabble disrupting the Convention.

What got us through and on our way was my Aussie friend’s passport. Oz was, of course, fighting in Vietnam. So we gained passage.

At a time like this, with such threatening partisanship, it might be worthwhile looking back on those few fraught days in 1968 Chicago, and remember the events leading up to both the electoral conventions and the elections themselves. There were, IIRC, some 12,000 police and an equal number of National Guardsmen in the city for the event, and probably as many protesters and agitators. The explosion of violence that occurred was ugly.

Just a stroll down memory lane!

Cheers
Brian 

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 12:42:29 AM
On this day in 1968, all hell broke loose as police attacked demonstrators on the streets outside the centre holding the Democratic Presidential Election. IIRC, this was a police induced battle, which led to members of the public who were victims of assault.

Things are, I admit, a bit hazy. I was returning from a trip to Vancouver, heading to Hamilton Ont. to resume studies. I was travelling by VW with an Aussie mate; my wife and kids were to follow by air in early Sept. We decided to cut through the the northern US, turning south at Winnipeg and aiming for Detroit. We were held up at the border, accused of heading to Chicago to cause mayhem. Canada was, at the time, a haven for US folks evading service in Vietnam, so I was suspected of being part of the rabble disrupting the Convention.

What got us through and on our way was my Aussie friend’s passport. Oz was, of course, fighting in Vietnam. So we gained passage.

At a time like this, with such threatening partisanship, it might be worthwhile looking back on those few fraught days in 1968 Chicago, and remember the events leading up to both the electoral conventions and the elections themselves. There were, IIRC, some 12,000 police and an equal number of National Guardsmen in the city for the event, and probably as many protesters and agitators. The explosion of violence that occurred was ugly.

Just a stroll down memory lane!

Cheers
Brian 

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 1:15:48 AM
Brian,

Your personal reminiscences of the events of fifty four years ago make me ask : what was it that made that year - 1968 - so turbulent ?

I was only a fifteen year old schoolboy at the time, but even so I felt the pace of events and got the feeling that things were on a knife’s edge.

The Prague Spring and the Soviet repression.

The students who were rioting in Paris .

The assassinations of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King.

The Black Power salute given by the US athletes from the Medal Podium at the Mexico Olympics.

The Tet Offensive in Vietnam.

There was a significant demonstration in London when the police rather harshly handled the youngsters protesting outside the US Embassy at Grosvenor Square : nothing like what was happening in Chicago in your account, but still a kind of canary in the mine moment.


Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 9:21:02 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Brian,

Just curious as to how fast the Heinkel was compared to the fastest RAF war plane?? Also what armament would it carry? In combat would it hold marked advantages, if it overcame it's quick fuel useage??

Thanks, & cheers,
MD


Wouldn't it be more informative to compare the Heinkel 178 to the British Gloster 28/39 if we are comparing German and British aircraft? Jet to jet?

The HE 178 (Aug. 1939) preceded the Gloster 28/39 (May 1941) by nearly two years so both were part of the early experimentation with jet propulsion fighters, weren't they?

I don't know how much the Heinkel research influenced the development of the Messerschmidt 262 but the ME262 did see combat. The HE178 did not.

I think that the Gloster Meteor 1 flew combat missions just after the ME 262 and so far as I know, the two planes never met in combat.

What criteria would you like to use to compare these aircraft, MD? Or did you want to compare the HE178 to the fastest prop planes?

Cheers,

George





Hi George,

With regards to your last comment, I did mean how would the fastest RAF prop planes fare against the early Luftwaffe Jets? Would they hold there own?? Or would it possibly turn the war in favor of the Nazis??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 9:33:08 AM
Quote:
Brian,

Your personal reminiscences of the events of fifty four years ago make me ask : what was it that made that year - 1968 - so turbulent ?

I was only a fifteen year old schoolboy at the time, but even so I felt the pace of events and got the feeling that things were on a knife’s edge.

The Prague Spring and the Soviet repression.

The students who were rioting in Paris .

The assassinations of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King.

The Black Power salute given by the US athletes from the Medal Podium at the Mexico Olympics.

The Tet Offensive in Vietnam.

There was a significant demonstration in London when the police rather harshly handled the youngsters protesting outside the US Embassy at Grosvenor Square : nothing like what was happening in Chicago in your account, but still a kind of canary in the mine moment.


Regards, Phil



Hi Brian, & Phil,

How do you answer, on how 1968 was so volatile? I just remember how depressing these events were? Sadly the way things are now are not to different now? Divisions in Race, Politics, international strife!? Wish I had the answer, what ever happened to peace, & enjoying life??

AS you say Phil, Things are still on a knive's edge??
Peace, & Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 7:33:16 PM
Democratic convention in Chicago. Another Kennedy killed. Etc.

I lived 80 miles from Chicago and went to the riots. Better than being in a small town in Indiana even if there was the risk of getting your skull fractured.
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