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Message
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 7:55:05 PM
Again, MD, the discussion and memories could be interesting indeed. But this isn’t the forum for such a discussion. It’s a place to note an historical event, make a comment, and then move on.

Phil has it pegged in his post. This was a decade which began with President Eisenhower in power and promptly took off in all directions. It was a decade, just thinking of the US, with:
•  three major political assassinations (IMHO; MLK’s may have been a hate crime)
•  one failed invasion (Bay of Pigs)
•  one increasingly unpopular war (Vietnam)
•  the rise (and souring) of the civil rights movement
•  the rejection of paternalistic authority (“Don’t trust anybody over 30!”)
•  the possible emancipation of women from the results of sexual congress (think The Pill), if not from the moral dilemma of their actions
•  the “summer of love”, one of the greatest misnomers of the decade
•  an increasing distrust of both government and their agencies
•  the rise of the concept of black power, in the ever widening diversity
These are just the ones that pop to mind as I type.

I’m 10 years older than Phil. At the time of the Chicago convention, I was 25 and in graduate school. I was married, and had celebrated the birth of my first child. I had friends who, as nuns, were supporting an “underground railway” from the US to Canada, and who eventually left their Order for their project. I had friends (I can think of four) who fled the US but were being tracked by FBI agents as they moved about Canada, and British friends who were offered doctoral programs in the US, but who were certain their every move was being logged. Sadly, they had reason. Many of them were broken by their experiences in the US.

I could go on, MD. With the inception of the active US participation in Vietnam (based on the lies of the Gulf of Tonkin), there was increasingly active distaste in Canada for US foreign policies and behaviour. I believe that that distaste, and the distrust associated with it, are still alive in the hearts of many Canadians today, at least to the point of being cynical when the US waves the flag and talks of “freedom”.

Again, lotsa stories, but no real arena for them on MHO.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 9:31:25 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

With regards to your last comment, I did mean how would the fastest RAF prop planes fare against the early Luftwaffe Jets? Would they hold there own?? Or would it possibly turn the war in favor of the Nazis??


I would think that the ME262 would fly at rate that was 100 mph faster than the fastest allied prop plane.

The first allied plane to shoot down one of these jets was a Spitfire and several of them at that.

US pilot Chuck Yeager shot one down but I think that the ME 262 was on the ground.

I believe that the time to shoot down one of these jets was when they were landing because they required a long approach. And I don't think that the ME 262 was designed for a fighter on fighter engagement anyway.

There were only 1400 produced and the allies had many more planes. There weren't enough of the jets to make a great difference.

The British brought their jet, the Gloster Meteor into combat late in the war but didn't want to commit them to fight over Germany. They were fearful that the technology would be of more aid to Germany should they come into possession of one. I wonder whether the British would have reconsidered had German been able to produce more of the ME 262's.

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2022 9:48:45 PM
On this day in 1911, contact was made with Ishi, the last adult indigenous member of the Yahi tribe. Contact was made in California.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ishi-discovered-in-california?cmpid=email-hist-tdih-2022-0829-08292022&om_rid=&~campaign=hist-tdih-2022-0829

Don’t know if anybody else sees this as historic rather than historical. When the book Ishi In Two Worlds first appeared in 1961, it was mind-shattering for me.

Cheers
Brian G

[Brian W: in the new format, I don’t know how to offer this as a link. Will an explanation become part of the new format?]



----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/30/2022 5:18:43 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi George,

With regards to your last comment, I did mean how would the fastest RAF prop planes fare against the early Luftwaffe Jets? Would they hold there own?? Or would it possibly turn the war in favor of the Nazis??


I would think that the ME262 would fly at rate that was 100 mph faster than the fastest allied prop plane.

The first allied plane to shoot down one of these jets was a Spitfire and several of them at that.

US pilot Chuck Yeager shot one down but I think that the ME 262 was on the ground.

I believe that the time to shoot down one of these jets was when they were landing because they required a long approach. And I don't think that the ME 262 was designed for a fighter on fighter engagement anyway.

There were only 1400 produced and the allies had many more planes. There weren't enough of the jets to make a great difference.

The British brought their jet, the Gloster Meteor into combat late in the war but didn't want to commit them to fight over Germany. They were fearful that the technology would be of more aid to Germany should they come into possession of one. I wonder whether the British would have reconsidered had German been able to produce more of the ME 262's.

George



George,

That aircraft company Gloster has a special record in the history of the Second World War : it furnished an obsolescent biplane in the early days of the war, and then provided the RAF was its fist jet aircraft in the final months . I think - but don’t know - that the obsolete Gladiator made a more significant contribution in combat than its ultra modern counterpart, the Meteor. The name “ Gloster” is itself a peculiarity, being an adaption from the more unwieldy name “ Gloucester”, a British city, which, in common with several other locations in Britain, was used to mark the names of aircraft.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/30/2022 7:51:24 AM
Quote:

George,

That aircraft company Gloster has a special record in the history of the Second World War : it furnished an obsolescent biplane in the early days of the war, and then provided the RAF was its fist jet aircraft in the final months . I think - but don’t know - that the obsolete Gladiator made a more significant contribution in combat than its ultra modern counterpart, the Meteor. The name “ Gloster” is itself a peculiarity, being an adaption from the more unwieldy name “ Gloucester”, a British city, which, in common with several other locations in Britain, was used to mark the names of aircraft.

Regards, Phil


Quite the contrast aren't they?

Gloster Gladiator



Gloster Meteor




I would agree that the biplane was the more impactful of the two Gloster aircraft. Didn't the Gladiator see service all over the world beginning with the Battle of Britain/

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/30/2022 9:52:57 AM
Thanks George ; loved that !

There’s something appealing about the Gladiator : it lends a nostalgic feel to the narrative of the War in the Air.

It combined the attributes of two eras : the biplane of WW1, and the enclosing cockpit canopy of WW2.

It certainly accounted for some Italian aircraft in combat.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/30/2022 6:35:52 PM
Guys

Can you imagine being a pilot of a Glouster Meteor, and your squad of these outdated WWI bi- planes has to break up an incoming large group of Luftwaffe bombers & Fighters, including ME 110's!? Like suggested in George's video! Now that was bravery to the 10th power!?

That's scary!?
Comments?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/31/2022 1:13:38 PM
Quote:
Again, MD, the discussion and memories could be interesting indeed. But this isn’t the forum for such a discussion. It’s a place to note an historical event, make a comment, and then move on.


Phil has it pegged in his post. This was a decade which began with President Eisenhower in power and promptly took off in all directions. It was a decade, just thinking of the US, with:
• three major political assassinations (IMHO; MLK’s may have been a hate crime)
• one failed invasion (Bay of Pigs)
• one increasingly unpopular war (Vietnam)
• the rise (and souring) of the civil rights movement
• the rejection of paternalistic authority (“Don’t trust anybody over 30!”)
• the possible emancipation of women from the results of sexual congress (think The Pill), if not from the moral dilemma of their actions
• the “summer of love”, one of the greatest misnomers of the decade
• an increasing distrust of both government and their agencies
• the rise of the concept of black power, in the ever widening diversity
These are just the ones that pop to mind as I type.


I’m 10 years older than Phil. At the time of the Chicago convention, I was 25 and in graduate school. I was married, and had celebrated the birth of my first child. I had friends who, as nuns, were supporting an “underground railway” from the US to Canada, and who eventually left their Order for their project. I had friends (I can think of four) who fled the US but were being tracked by FBI agents as they moved about Canada, and British friends who were offered doctoral programs in the US, but who were certain their every move was being logged. Sadly, they had reason. Many of them were broken by their experiences in the US.


I could go on, MD. With the inception of the active US participation in Vietnam (based on the lies of the Gulf of Tonkin), there was increasingly active distaste in Canada for US foreign policies and behaviour. I believe that that distaste, and the distrust associated with it, are still alive in the hearts of many Canadians today, at least to the point of being cynical when the US waves the flag and talks of “freedom”.


Again, lotsa stories, but no real arena for them on MHO.


Cheers
Brian G




Well what can I say Brian??

But "right on!!"
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/31/2022 8:09:17 PM
On the discussion of the two Gloster a/c (and MD, please don’t introduce “Glouster” into the mix: “Gloucester” is sufficiently confusing! ), I have had some challenging hours. Everything you guys said made little sense, but I couldn’t see how you could be so wrong! I thought you were thinking of the Hawker Hind, but the Hind and Gladiator are very different aircraft.

At a certain age, the penny drops slowly: only late last night did I realize I was confusing the Gladiator with the Fairey Swordfish! OOOPS!!

George, thanks for the great pix: they’re great. Phil, you note:”It [the Gladiator] combined the attributes of two eras : the biplane of WW1, and the enclosing cockpit canopy of WW2.. There are two more elements which are worth noting as transitional. The first is the combined use of stressed metal and fabric as cladding for the Gladiator. The Glad wasn’t the only RAF a/c to use this combination. The Hawker Hart, another biplane which the RAF employed during the first years of WW2, used the same kind of mixture; so did the Hart’s more famous sibling, the Hawker Hurricane. Both were designed by Sydney Camm, so similar design elements are understandable.

A second transitional point deals with the thinness of the wings on the Gladiator. In the a/c designer’s world, the tension between power and agility changed in favour of power. But agility was still seen as a virtue in fighters, even as designs moved from biplane design to monoplane dominance. Two fo the longest-living fighters of WW2 ETO, the Spitfire and the Bf-109 through their various Marks, challenged their designers over the greater power of more powerful engines balanced against the increasing need to “fatten” and strengthen wings in order to hang pods, sensors and other flotsam under them.

As an aside, there is an incredibly easy-to-read volume dealing in its opening chapters with fighter air power between the wars. It’s an oldie, but the basics of power, lift, drag and gravity haven’t changed much, and the author is a highly-skilled wordsmith. The book is Fighter: The True Story of the Battle of Britain. The author is Len Deighton. It’s probably now available as an ebook, if that floats your boat.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/2/2022 6:43:41 PM
On this date in London in 1666, a gentleman makes an entry in his diary:
Lords day. Some of our maids sitting up late last night to get things ready against our feast today, Jane called us up, about 3 in the morning, to tell us of a great fire they saw in the City. So I rose, and slipped on my nightgown and went to her window, and thought it to be on the back side of Markelane at the furthest; but being unused to such fires as fallowed, I thought it far enough off, and so went to bed again and to sleep.”

The diarist was Samuel Pepys; the entry for 2 September was the beginning of his record of the Great Fire of London, which in four days would destroy a large part of the City of London (i.e., the old City, still largely defined by the original Roman walls and their extensions). Pepys, who lived near the Tower of London in Seething Lane, viewed the growing fire from the heights of the Tower, and later bore news of the growing disaster personally to Charles II and his brother the Duke of York, advising them to command the destruction of homes to create fire-breaks. Pepys provided liaison between the Royals and the Mayor of London in fighting a fire, to little avail. The wind from the east remained high for three days, and the buildings were too dry and dense. In four days, a large part of the city (including many of the parish churches, Guild Halls, St Paul’s Cathedral, and some 13,000 houses) simply disappeared. Pepys himself, who had most of his valuables either removed to safety from his home or buried in his yard, did not lose his house to the flame. The south half of Seething Lane burned; the northern half did not.

456 years ago today.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/3/2022 11:00:55 PM
Some events (two deaths and a birth of sorts) worth noting, IMHO.

1. On this date in 1658, Oliver Cromwell died. He was 59 years old.
There may be some readers who are not familiar with the name. For them, Cromwell was, increasingly, a military, political and administrative powerhouse, not from the time he entered Parliament in 1628 but certainly beginning with his years as MP for Cambridge in 1640. He fought with the Roundhead (i.e., Parliamentary) Army, initially as a commander of a cavalry troop but eventually as a senior commander in The New Model Army. IIUC, his reputation as a commander led to his nickname, “Old Ironsides”.

He placed his signature on the warrant for the execution of Charles 1 in 1649, served as a distinguished MP of the “Rump” Parliament during the Commonwealth period (1649 - 1653), while also leading Commonwealth forces against dissident Irish and Scottish forces with great success. He was instrumental in dismissing the “Rump” Parliament (they were both ineffective and increasingly unrepresentative of English active political and social thinkers) and was asked to become Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England, Scotland and Ireland in December, 1953, a position he held until his death in 1658.

Religiously, he was an Independent Puritan, displaying tolerance for most protestant sects (though not those such as Quakers, which he considered to have moved towards heresy), but not Roman Catholicism or High Church Anglicanism.

At his death, his title and power were transferred to his son Richard, who quickly proved unequal to the challenges he faced. This ultimately led to General Monck supporting a parliamentary decision to request Prince Charles to return and take the throne as Charles II.

2. On this date in 1962, Edward E Cummings (typically written ‘e e cummings’) died at age 67.
Cummings is a poet/author/playwright/painter essayist who remains swallowed in controversy 100 years after his first work was presented. Largely, perhaps, for the wrong reasons. His poetry was often based on structural or grammatical idosyncrasies which kept people from recognizing the formal poetic forms within the appearance. He wrote some mean sonnets following traditional requirements, but the format was lost by the use of half-rhymes, erratic punctuation, and the like.

A pacifist, many of cummings more powerful poems focus on the horrors of war, or the rejection of war, or the impact of war. He himself faced mistreatment of the oddest kind when he drove ambulance in France during WW1 instead of going to fight (see his biographical novel The Enormous Room). I think that might be the niche in which he survives. For any who might want to sample his anti-war poetry, if offer the following linK
[Read More]

3. Today in 1939, first Great Britain and then France declared that, because Germany would not withdraw troops from Poland and enter diplomatic discussions with the Polish government, a state of war existed between their nations and Germany. From what I understand, this was not expected by three of the main nations involved (Germany, France, GB). Hitler expected France and GB to fold, as they had over Czechoslovakia and the Sudeten issue (this time, ostensibly, it was Danzig and German access through a Polish corridor), and Ribbentrop was stoking this belief though elements of the German General Staff were less certain. GB, largely through Lord Halifax, was striving even after the invasion of 1 September, to find a means to solve the issue by face-to-face Polish-German meetings. France, with a fragmented and tenuous government in place under Deladier, had members in positions of power who were prepared to overstep reality in describing how ready Germans and Poles were to solve the issue peacefully.

At any rate, war finally arrived officially on this date in 1939.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/6/2022 2:47:12 PM
Quote:
On the discussion of the two Gloster a/c (and MD, please don’t introduce “Glouster” into the mix: “Gloucester” is sufficiently confusing!
Brian, Geeze, Just a simple mis-spelling!??


No MD posts because, lately, Been super busy, my son Kyle got married, & it was Labor day WE!?

Catching up on events in early September! Please comment on anything below!??

9-3,

1609 Henry Hudson founds New York, then New Amstedam! Why couldn't the Dutch hold it? Anyone??

1658, Olive Cromwell dies, how was he vital to the English Civil War?? Comments?

1783 the Treaty of Paris! Was the treaty to favorable to the new US??

1894 1st Labor Day! How was yours??

& 9-4 in history,

925 A Saxon king becomes the 1st king to rule all of England!? How, & why??

1870 Napoleon III deposed of as France's 1st president! How did this occur!? Political or military? What say you??

1989 NASA launches last Titan rocket!? What was it's problem? TO dangerous or to expensive?? Anyone?

9-5's history,

1793 Reign of Terror in France! Why so bloody?? Anyone?

1836 Sam Houston becomes 1 st President of Texas! He later begged Texas not to join the Confederacy! They should have listened!? What say you??

1972 Munich Olympics attacked by terrorists!? Why? & Was security bad?? Anyone?

2001 Scientists discover black holes in space!? Why do so many people, especially in the US, not believe in Science!? Comments??

& today, 9-6 in history,

1901 Pres. William McKinley assassination occurs! Who, & why? anyone??

1914 the 1st battle of Marne starts, can some one give us a good website or synopsis of it??

1944 Germans fire the 1st V-2 Rocket! Did Great Britain have a defense for it?? Anyone?

1997 Princess Diana's funeral! Did the Paparazzi ever have to pay any repirations?? Who was mostly to blame??.what say you??

like a bad cold,
I'm back! MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/6/2022 3:22:03 PM
Quote:
1609 Henry Hudson founds New York, then New Amstedam! Why couldn't the Dutch hold it? Anyone??


Poor Henry. He couldn't obtain financial backing in England and so he turned to Holland and the Dutch East India Company bankrolled his 3rd voyage. Many countries and trading companies sought a route to the east through North America. They were looking for a northwest passage.

On the Dutch backed voyage he came upon a great river which is now called the Hudson River and he sailed up that river. He turned back at the point where the capital of New York state, Albany, sits.

Hudson returned to England to discover that the government and crown were not too impressed that he had discovered new lands for a foreign power so British companies decided that they had best finance his 4th trip. It would be his last as he stumbled upon the vast inland sea now called Hudson Bay. A mutinous crew cast him and his teenage son adrift on a boat and he was never seen again.

When Hudson reported to the Dutch of his discovery and that animal furs were abundant there, they dispatched surveyors and cartographers and laid claim to the territory. I believe that they established a fort on Manhattan Island. But much like the British, the establishment of a colony was not directly a government operation. It was a private business enterprise initially.

The Dutch assumed some control in 1624 as settlers began to arrive to populate the territory right up to modern day Albany.

The British sent warships to New Amsterdam in 1664. There wasn't a state of war between Holland and Britain but the British demanded a surrender of the fort. And the Dutch gave in. New Amsterdam became New York City.

The second Anglo-Dutch war ensued and it seems that when it came to time to make peace in 1667, the treaty would have given New York back to the Dutch but they didn't press the issue preferring gain influence in the Caribbean Sugar Islands.

A third Anglo-Dutch war broke out in 1773 and the Dutch recaptured NYC. The treaty that ended that war then gave the colony to the British.

I have read that the Dutch didn't think that the financial gains out of the fur trade were sufficient to warrant great expenditures on the colony. It wasn't making them enough money to offset operating costs.

Perhaps some of our US posters could tell me whether there is Dutch influence to be found on New York's architecture or language. Were all of the forts and settlements created by the Dutch given English names or have some places survived with an original Dutch name?

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/6/2022 7:37:20 PM
Hi George,

Henry Hudson was quite the explorer, I had forgotten his connection to the English! You kind of wonder why the 1st nation s around Hudson Bay never found traces of Henry, & his son??
BTW speaking of the 1st Nations anything new on them finding new history on the Franklin Ships, & Parks Canada? The warm season is almost up? What's the latest??

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/6/2022 7:49:51 PM
George, I had assumed Rockefeller and Roosevelt covered the language and architecture pretty well!

Quote:
1944 Germans fire the 1st V-2 Rocket! Did Great Britain have a defense for it?? Anyone?

To be precise, the first V-2 (aka A-4) was fired at an enemy target on this date in 1944. IIRC, the target was Paris. London’s turn came two days later. London and area received its fair share of V-2s (some 1,100 of them all told), but so did Antwerp and Belgium. The last V-2 was fired against Britain 27 March 1945.

As I understand it, the Allies had no defence against the V-2 once it was launched. The best defence was to attack the launch sites (the same applied to a lesser extent to the V-1, because airborne interception of the V-1 became increasing successful). But the very fact that as late as 27 March 1945 Germany could still launch a V-2 successfully suggests that Allied attempts were not sufficiently effective.

I can only imagine how terrifying a V-2 strike must have been, since it came without warning of any kind. At the same time, it was a costly means of delivering a relatively minor level of explosives to a random target. The V-2 was about the same length as a Ju 88 A-1 (47’), if you prefer, about 7’ longer than a DH Mosquito. It’s typical payload was about 725 kilos (1600 lbs), which came nowhere near the Allied “cookies” in destructive power. Of course, tell that to the 5,000+ who lost their lives under V-2 attack.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/7/2022 8:36:24 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

Henry Hudson was quite the explorer, I had forgotten his connection to the English! You kind of wonder why the 1st nation s around Hudson Bay never found traces of Henry, & his son??
BTW speaking of the 1st Nations anything new on them finding new history on the Franklin Ships, & Parks Canada? The warm season is almost up? What's the latest??

Cheers,
MD


Well, Hudson was English and not Dutch but these explorers had to find funding for their operations. I recall that Pierre Radisson tried to convince the French king to finance his trip to the Hudson Bay area with promises of riches to be found in the fur trade.

Rebuffed by his own monarch, Radisson and partner Grosseillers headed to England where they found the necessary support and the English benefitted from access to the territory on the shores of Hudson Bay that would eventually be expanded to become Rupert's Land.

It seems that when financing was needed, explorers and business people would seek it wherever it was available.

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/7/2022 6:28:47 PM
Quote:


Catching up on events in early September! Please comment on anything below!??

9-3,

1609 Henry Hudson founds New York, then New Amstedam! Why couldn't the Dutch hold it? Thanks George on the good replies!

1658, Olive Cromwell dies, how was he vital to the English Civil War?? Comments?

1783 the Treaty of Paris! Was the treaty to favorable to the new US??

1894 1st Labor Day! How was yours??

& 9-4 in history,

925 A Saxon king becomes the 1st king to rule all of England!? How, & why??

1870 Napoleon III deposed of as France's 1st president! How did this occur!? Political or military? What say you??

1989 NASA launches last Titan rocket!? What was it's problem? TO dangerous or to expensive?? Anyone?

9-5's history,

1793 Reign of Terror in France! Why so bloody?? Anyone?

1836 Sam Houston becomes 1 st President of Texas! He later begged Texas not to join the Confederacy! They should have listened!? What say you??

1972 Munich Olympics attacked by terrorists!? Why? & Was security bad?? Anyone?

2001 Scientists discover black holes in space!? Why do so many people, especially in the US, not believe in Science!? Comments??

& , 9-6 in history,

1901 Pres. William McKinley assassination occurs! Who, & why? anyone??

1914 the 1st battle of Marne starts, can some one give us a good website or synopsis of it??

1944 Germans fire the 1st V-2 Rocket! Did Great Britain have a defense for it?? Thanks Brian for the good synopsis!

1997 Princess Diana's funeral! Did the Paparazzi ever have to pay any repirations?? Who was mostly to blame? I say the careless driver for Process Di?.what say you??

Regards,
MD


Today, Checking 9-7 in history,

1533 Elizabeth 1, English Queen is born! How highly would you rate her as far as Queens of England?? What say you??

1822 Brazil becomes independent! How did they become such a slave dependent nation!? Anyone??

1825 the Canal Era in Canada starts with the Lachine Canal near Montreal! Later the Rideau & Welland Canals! How important were they to travel, & the economy of Canada? Any good websites or posts welcome!?

1901 the Boxer Rebellion ends! Why was it called "Boxer Rebellion", & again, what was it about?? Comments, Anyone?

Does any MHO'ers have any new topics!?
Comments on anything welcome??
& Carry on!
D

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/8/2022 10:35:55 AM
Quote:


Well, Hudson was English and not Dutch but these explorers had to find funding for their operations. I recall that Pierre Radisson tried to convince the French king to finance his trip to the Hudson Bay area with promises of riches to be found in the fur trade.

Rebuffed by his own monarch, Radisson and partner Grosseillers headed to England where they found the necessary support and the English benefitted from access to the territory on the shores of Hudson Bay that would eventually be expanded to become Rupert's Land.

It seems that when financing was needed, explorers and business people would seek it wherever it was available.

George



Hi George,

It would seem the whole British Empire, & for that matter all colonization was based on economics!

No profit no Colony!?
What say you??
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
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This day in World History! Continued
9/8/2022 11:44:04 AM
Quote:
1825 the Canal Era in Canada starts with the Lachine Canal near Montreal! Later the Rideau & Welland Canals! How important were they to travel, & the economy of Canada? Any good websites or posts welcome!?


These projects were the product of security and economic concerns.

After the War of 1812 and the expulsion of the US invaders from Canada, the Duke of Wellington prepared a report to improve the defences of Canada lest the US decide to invade again. The Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River were the highways of commerce and warfare of the 17th and 18th centuries for the French, British and later the US and Canada.

In 1819, the Duke recommended the construction of a canal from the St. Lawrence to the Ottawa River. This would provide the means to supply a city like Montréal or Kingston, without having to ply the easily accessible waters of the St. Lawrence River (for the US and Britain). The Rideau Canal (now UNESCO World Heritage Site) was built by architect John By, and opened in 1832. It is the oldest, continuously operating canal system in North America and it was built as a military installation. Today, the canal is a tourist route for many boaters from both Canada and the US. Certainly, the construction of this canal was one of the major engineering feats of the 19th century as it was pushed through rocks and swamps and bush with many dying of disease in the process.

Rideau Canal:



[Read More]


As I recall, the Lachine canal would allow larger ships to navigate around the Lachine rapids at Montréal. So it was constructed more for economic reasons. Montréal was still an important economic hub in the early 19th century as it had been since the early days of exploration, but with the construction of the Erie Canal in upper New York state in 1825, it was feared that that canal would siphon trade and ship traffic to the US. In order to compete, it would be necessary to make it easier to move from the Great Lakes through the Lachine rapids.

The Lachine Canal was but one of many construction projects to open the inland seas of the Great Lakes to the Atlantic Ocean. When the St. Lawrence Seaway was completed with canal construction on the southern shore of the St. Lawrence, the Lachine Canal became obsolete.

Lachine Canal National Historic Site




The Welland Canal links Lake Erie to Lake Ontario and bypasses Niagara Falls on the Niagara River. As such it is now a key component of the St. Lawrence Seaway. This canal was rebuilt three times and vestiges of canals one to three may be found today.




I have friends with a cottage on the Rideau Canal but on a large lake that is part of the system. Periodically in the heat of the summer, a convoy of pleasure boats will suddenly appear having been released from one lock and heading for the next. It is rough but extraordinarily beautiful countryside.

Cheers,

George


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/8/2022 7:27:37 PM
Hi George,

Wasn't the Ribeau Canal route, also one of the original portage routes of the famous Coureurs des Bois!?

Lots of Locks on it! Quite an engineering feat?

Also the Welland Canal.is basically the only route large US ships can use to can get from the Great Lakes to the Atlantic Ocean! I hope Canada doesn't charge us high tariffs??

Carry on!
MD

BTW really nice detailed maps! Thanks!
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/8/2022 8:10:46 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

Wasn't the Ribeau Canal route, also one of the original portage routes of the famous Coureurs Dr Bois!?

Lots of Locks on it! Quite an engineering feat?

Also the Welland Canal.is basically the only route large US ships can use to can get from the Great Lakes to the Atlantic Ocean! I hope Canada doesn't charge us high tariffs??

Carry on!
MD

BTW really nice detailed maps! Thanks!


The Rideau area was part of an extensive First Nations fur trade route. The First Nations used the lakes and rivers and portages to travel from place to place. The Rideau and Cataraqui rivers were an old FN route and the British used parts of it when planning the Rideau Canal.

And the Rideau Canal is still advertised as a canoe trip route as the canal consists of many large lakes and rivers along with the lock system.

[Read More]

When the Europeans arrived, they employed indigenous guides to show them how to get to the places where the furs were or to meet with other FN's who had something to trade. That's how we learned to get around what appeared to be pretty inhospitable country.

I have a book by EW Morse titled Fur Trade Canoe Routes of Canada, Then and Now. The Ottawa River was a key route and you could reach part of it through the Rideau lakes system.

Personally, I have travelled a few old canoe routes including the French River in Ontario and the Churchill River in Saskatchewan and another in Québec in Frontenac Park.

There are so many lakes and rivers in Canada that you could spend a lifetime exploring canoe routes and learning of their importance to the fur trade and the expansion of settlement in this country.

"Coureurs des Bois" means "runners of the woods". They were considered to be outlaws by the voyageurs who were legitimate employees of the licensed fur trade companies. The coureurs des bois were unlicensed free lancers and they were French-Canadians of course.

New France was trying to regulate the fur trade in the late 1600's and forbade men to head off to the west on their own to trade for furs. But men would sneak off in the spring from Québec City or Montréal, heading to the Lake Superior country to seek their fortunes. They were important however because often they made initial contact with new indigenous trading partners in the north and west.

New France had limited success in regulating the trade. In the mid 1600's, there were between 500-800 men heading to the northwest in canoes filled with trade goods. These were the coureurs des bois.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/9/2022 9:26:28 AM
Quote:
Quote:

Recent history events below, check them out! Any new posts??
9-5's history,

1793 Reign of Terror in France! Why so bloody?? Anyone?

1836 Sam Houston becomes 1 st President of Texas! He later begged Texas not to join the Confederacy! They should have listened!? What say you??

1972 Munich Olympics attacked by terrorists!? Why? & Was security bad?? Anyone?

2001 Scientists discover black holes in space!? Why do so many people, especially in the US, not believe in Science!? Comments??

& , 9-6 in history,

1901 Pres. William McKinley assassination occurs! Who, & why? anyone??

1914 the 1st battle of Marne starts, can some one give us a good website or synopsis of it??

1944 Germans fire the 1st V-2 Rocket! Did Great Britain have a defense for it?? Thanks Brian for the good synopsis!

1997 Princess Diana's funeral! Did the Paparazzi ever have to pay any repirations?? Who was mostly to blame? I say the careless driver for Process Di?.what say you??

, Checking 9-7 in history,

1533 Elizabeth 1, English Queen is born! How highly would you rate her as far as Queens of England?? What say you??

1822 Brazil becomes independent! How did they become such a slave dependent nation!? Anyone??

1825 the Canal Era in Canada starts with the Lachine Canal near Montreal! Later the Rideau & Welland Canals! How important were they to travel, & the economy of Canada? Thanks George on the excellent posts on this!!!

1901 the Boxer Rebellion ends! Why was it called "Boxer Rebellion", & again, what was it about?? Comments, Anyone?

9-8 history,

1941 The Nazis lay the Siege of Leningrad! Why did it fail?? Comments?

1945 Japan's forces surrender to the US & Soviets in Korea! Why did the Russians attack IJA so late? Anyone??

Today 9-9 in History,

1087 King William I dies from combat injuries! Why did Kings actually fight in wars back then? & not in recent times?? Anyone?

2015 recently passed away Queen Elizabeth II becomes the longest reigning Monarch in British history! Comments on the late Queens achievements ??

any new topics!?
Regards,
MD

BTW I will not be able to post this WE, please pick up the slack!!?? Thanks!

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
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This day in World History! Continued
9/10/2022 9:24:50 PM
According to History Online (?), GB War Cabinet responded to Germany “in kind” for “the Blitz”. Quote:
British War Cabinet reacts to the Blitz in kind
In light of the destruction and terror inflicted on Londoners by a succession of German bombing raids, called “the Blitz,” the British War Cabinet instructs British bombers over Germany to drop their bombs “anywhere” if unable to reach their targets.

The prior two nights of bombing had wrought extraordinary damage, especially in the London slum area, the East End. King George VI even visited the devastated area to reassure the inhabitants that their fellow countrymen were with them in heart and mind. Each night since the seventh, sirens had sounded to announce the approach of incoming German planes, which had begun dropping bombs indiscriminately in the London vicinity, even though the docks had been their primary target on Day One of the Blitz. As British bombers set out for Germany to retaliate, they were instructed not to return home with their bombs if they failed to locate their original targets. Instead, they were to release their loads where and when they could.

On the night of September 10th, a night when British Home Intelligence had been alerted of how panicked Londoners were becoming at the sound of those air-raid sirens, Berlin was paid in kind with a cascade of British bombs—one of which even landed in the garden of Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi Party’s minister of propaganda.

This does not really connect with the reality I recognize for the period. This was the third night of Luftwaffe bombing against London. “The Blitz” was not yet a term at that point. The British War Cabinet was simply responding to the deliberate ignoring of a gentleman’s agreement (despite Warsaw, despite Rotterdam) not to bomb civilian targets. WSC was determined to exchange illegitimate blows with Germany, so long as Germany broke the agreement first.

Nevertheless, to talk about response “in kind” to an order “to drop at any point” is misleading. At that time, Luftwaffe boffins could provide relatively accurate blind bombing, even by night. As a caveat: their Knickbein guidance system was not infallible. It was by no means accurate, so some Luftwaffe a/c would miss their targets and still drop. The RAF, having no such technique as Knickbein (or its successor, X-gerät), assumed bombs on clear civilian targets was deliberate. Keep in mind: they were accepting Op assessments for the accuracy of their own raids, and believed they bombed only military locations. So their reprisal raids and “drop anywhere” policies by Sept 10 were based on intel errors, at kindness.

Typically, talking about the night bombing for today’s date (Sept 10) would be referred to as 10/11 Sept. Here is the accepted ledger for RAF activities for 10/11 September:
CHANNEL, PORTS, GERMANY
106 aircraft of all types. Most of the effort was to bomb barges in the Channel coast ports, but 17 Whitleys attacked the Potsdamer Station in Berlin and Bremen docks and 3 aircraft were minelaying. 2 Hampdens and 2 Whitleys lost.”

Whatever manipulation of numbers we are prepared to accept, the notation suggests only 17 Whitleys attacking either Berlin or Bremen. In all probability, the Whitleys could not have attacked both targets on a single night. And, even with a drop more accurate than was later proved impossible, bomb loads from 8.5 Whitleys would be negligible.

The time when RAF Bomber Command could finally repay what became the Blitz would not arrive until Spring 1942. When that occurred, RAF would begin to devastate Germany. But that pathetic little assault on Germany on 10/11 Sept 1940 was anything but a meaningful response to the more carefully directed assaults by the Luftwaffe which would define The Blitz.

Cheers
Brian G
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
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This day in World History! Continued
9/12/2022 11:27:48 AM
Thanks Brian,

For the post on the German Blitz, cleared up a lot for me!?

Checking other General History events, on 9-10!

1608 John Smith chosen President of Jamestown, was this the colonies 1st election?? Anyone?

1813 US naval forces win the Battle of Lake Erie, paving the way for control of the Great Lakes!? Comments?

Of course yesterday day 9-11 was the horrific terrorists attack on the twin towers, & Pentagon!?

1814 the USN defeat the British on lake Champlain! The RN seemed to have trouble winning naval battles on large NA inland lakes? Why?? Anyone?

1944 WSC & FDR meet in Quebec, what was planned?? What say you?

2008 big fire in the Chunnel between GB, & France? What caused it? Anyone??

& on 9-12

The German Commandos freed Benito Mussolini to Munich! How did they accomplish this? Anyone??

Any other new topics? Or discuss those above??
BTW these general world history topics come from Encyclopedia Britannica!

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
9/12/2022 12:43:29 PM
Quote:
1813 US naval forces win the Battle of Lake Erie, paving the way for control of the Great Lakes!? Comments?


Neither the US nor Britain ever had control of all of the Great Lakes. There was no lock system so naval warfare was pretty much a lake by lake affair.

Warships had to be built in ports on the lakes in which they would be used.

Yes, the US defeated a smaller RN squadron on Lake Erie. The USN had larger vessels with longer range guns. The RN vessels were equipped with shorter range runs and were crewed by many soldiers untrained for naval warfare. Be that as it may, the US was in control of Lake Erie and that forced the British land forces to retreat to the east. As they retreated, they stood to fight at Moraviantown where the great Shawnee war chief, Tecumseh was killed.

It was an important victory as the smaller British forces could no longer maintain control of Michigan or the western end of Upper Canada.

There was no ship passage from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario and on that lake the US was never able to dominate. Derisively, the Lake Ontario naval battles were called the "Battles of the Carpenters" as both combatants chose not to fight if the other side had the largest ship on the lake. And so at times the USN was confined to port at Sacket's Harbor and at other times, the RN chose to remain in KIngston harbour.

By 1814, the RN was the dominant navy on Lake Ontario so much so that when the US army was trying once again to own the Niagara Peninsula, the USN commodore on the lake refused to head to the western end of Lake Ontario to bomb the British and to resupply the Americans who were eventually driven from peninsula. The RN was in command of Lake Ontario when the war ended though the US was building a large warship at Sacket's Harbor when the war ended.

The launch of HMS St. Lawrence, a 112 gun first rate vessel was the only ship of its type ever launched in fresh water by the RN and which spent its whole life as a fresh water vessel. The USN had nothing to match and so for a good portion of 1814, Ontario was a British lake.



And in the opposite direction, the British had seized Michilimackinac Island which sat between Lake Huron and Georgian Bay right at the start of the war as the US invaded Upper Canada from Detroit. Both Detroit and Fort Mackinac, as it is sometimes called, fell at about the same time.

When the Battle of Lake Erie was concluded and the British had to leave Detroit, the Americans determined to claim Michilimackinac. 5 US vessels and troops headed for Michilimackinac to attack what the British called Fort George. They were soundly defeated by The Royal Newfoundland militia, a local group called the Michigan militia and about 150 Menominee First Nations. Michilimackinac remained in the hands of the British until the end of the war but was ceded to the US as part of the peace treaty.

The point is that by maintaining control of the island, the British had effective control of the upper Great Lakes.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
9/12/2022 2:02:09 PM
The point is the victory on Lake Erie enabled the Americans to control Lake Erie for the remainder of the war. This accounted for much of the Americans' successes on the Niagara peninsula in 1814 and also removed the threat of a British attack on Ohio, Pennsylvania, or Western New York.

And we got to keep Michilimackinac.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
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This day in World History! Continued
9/12/2022 2:22:38 PM
Quote:
The point is the victory on Lake Erie enabled the Americans to control Lake Erie for the remainder of the war. This accounted for much of the Americans' successes on the Niagara peninsula in 1814 and also removed the threat of a British attack on Ohio, Pennsylvania, or Western New York.

And we got to keep Michilimackinac.


I believe that I acknowledged the importance of the victory on Lake Erie.

However, the US forces on the Niagara Peninsula despite having acquitted themselves well at the Battle of Chippawa and the Battle of Lundy's Lane, left the field of battle and retreated to Fort Erie. There they were under siege which the British did not manage well, losing many men in an attempt to take the fort.

And yet, the US troops chose to leave the Niagara Peninsula for the final time. The British had successfully prevented the US troops from being resupplied from the Buffalo, NY side of the river. The US Commodore Chauncey on Lake Ontario was not in the mood to supply the US troops or to support military action with his ships on Lake Ontario. The US forces were not in a good position then.

I believe that the commander of the US forces was Jacob Brown (doing this from memory), and while not forced to face a court martial, he was called to task at an inquiry for ending the invasion of the peninsula. Brown was one of the new breed of US generals who, along with Winfield Scott and others were responsible for transforming an ineffective force in 1812 to a formidable opponent in 1814.

On our side of the border we feel that the invaders were expelled from BNA thanks to the British regulars aided by militia and First Nations' warriors.

I believe that I also said that Michilimackinac was returned to the US as part of the peace treaty that ended the war.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
9/12/2022 2:39:39 PM
Both sides were horrified by the carnage they had witnessed at Lundy's Lane.

Removing Indian raids against the US did more to secure our frontier.

stay safe man.



George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
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This day in World History! Continued
9/12/2022 4:15:49 PM
Quote:
1814 the USN defeat the British on lake Champlain! The RN seemed to have trouble winning naval battles on large NA inland lakes? Why?? Anyone?


The RN had never established real RN squadrons on the Great Lakes.

What was available was the Provincial Marine which was not part of the navy at all. It consisted of flat bottomed transport vessels that could be converted to military use. The real problem was that the crews of the PM were not military sailors. They were civilian contractors recruited by the Deputy Quartermaster department of the army.

And it was a lousy job indeed as the British army did not intend to pay these men well. It wasn't until 1804 that the army decided to provide free rations to the recruits in the PM. In 1807 the army dispensed with the practice of withholding pay in arrears for three months. Still that wasn't enough to encourage men to work in the PM for extended periods.

The PM did a very good job in transporting men and material around the lakes and that contributed to victories in places like Detroit in 1812. But the Provincial Marine sailors were not fighting sailors.

With the threat of war looming, the RN reported that the crews of the vessels that they did have, especially in Lake Erie were crewed by incompetent sailors. By 1813, the RN had finally sent some officers and trained sailors to the Great Lakes but not nearly enough.

The RN commander on Lake Erie was a Captain Barclay and he had requested 250-300 professional seaman to serve on the converted vessels of his squadron on Lake Erie. He received 50 trained sailors. To fill out the crews, army men were dispatched. Many were from the Newfoundland militia. It was speculated that because they were Newfoundlanders, they must know something about sailing.

Barclay's ships were short of effective guns. Barclay knew that his squadron was comprised of smaller ships with too many short carronades and yet he chose to meet Perry in battle despite his misgivings. It is worth knowing that this squadron did destroy Perry's flag ship and it is surprising that Perry was not killed even as he was rowed to another ship to raise his flag.


At the Battle of Lake Champlain, the RN squadron under George Downie had more RN sailors but its ships were hardly ready for battle. HMS Confiance was not completely built. It arrived for battle without a completed magazine so small boats had to follow her with ordnance. Gunlocks had not arrived either so makeshift methods of firing had to be be employed. Part of the superstructure was missing.

As on Lake Erie, ships crews on Lake Champlain were under strength. HMS Confiance with 37 guns would have been the largest vessel on Lake Champlain but its crew had barely had time to introduce themselves to one another and the squadron had not worked up either.

Still the British were confident that they would win but the USN, fighting a stationary battle managed to destroy HMS Confiance and to kill Commander Downie. Overall commander of British forces, George Prevost was anxious to begin his campaign in New York state but would not proceed past Plattsburg without knowing that the RN controlled Lake Champlain. He pushed Downie to ready his attack before the naval commander was ready.


It was a stunning defeat by the USN but should perhaps have been expected. I think that the USN, other than on Lake Ontario, had done a better job of building fleets for the inland lakes.

The upshot was that the 13,000 British troops on land near Plattsburgh were order to retreat by Prevost. The US was now facing veterans of the Napoleonic wars and many of those officers were perplexed that Prevost did not pursue the battle, with or without victory on the lake. The great soldier, Wellington, did concur that to have pursued the land campaign would have been foolhardy.

That victory on Lake Champlain and the reticence on the part of General Prevost to attack may have saved the northern US at this point in the war.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
9/12/2022 5:30:31 PM
Brevet Lieutenant James Wellington, nephew of the Duke of Wellington was killed at the Battle of Plattsburgh. The family disinterred his remains and brought them back to England.

Prevost would have run into the same problems that Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne ran into in 1777

I have toured this part of New York State. Very little of the battlefield has been preserved.

Phil Andrade
London  UK
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This day in World History! Continued
9/13/2022 10:28:54 AM
It’s come as a revelation to me that, after 1815, the British government funded the flow of migrants from Scotland to Canada with the specific aim of holding the strategic triangle between the St Lawrence and Ottawa rivers against the threat of an American invasion.

Regards, Phil
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NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
9/13/2022 11:13:02 AM
The US never did have to invade Canada to get concessions from Great Britain. All they had to do was threaten to invade.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
9/13/2022 8:27:01 PM
Quote:
The US never did have to invade Canada to get concessions from Great Britain. All they had to do was threaten to invade.


This needs fleshing out. Are we still talking about the War of 1812?


George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
9/13/2022 8:53:31 PM
Quote:
It’s come as a revelation to me that, after 1815, the British government funded the flow of migrants from Scotland to Canada with the specific aim of holding the strategic triangle between the St Lawrence and Ottawa rivers against the threat of an American invasion.

Regards, Phil


Interesting Phil. There were many Scottish soldiers who were demobilized in Nova Scotia just after the US revolution. From about 1770 to 1815, there were already 70,000 Scots in Nova Scotia, PEI and Upper Canada. I live in a part of Ontario that was settled by Scots.

Until 1815 most of the immigration had been by choice and by Highland Scots, both RC and Presbyterians. We know that the HIghland Clearances had a lot to do with the willingness of these Scots to emigrate. However, weren't the most extensive clearances much later than 1815?

In the early 19th century, the 3rd most spoken language in BNA was Gaelic.

Now I was aware that in 1815, many Lowland Scots were encouraged to move to Nova Scotia by the British government but I never knew why. The strategic element that you mentioned is new to me. I had presumed that an economic downturn in Scotland had led to the migration of Lowland Scots.

But your explanation does make sense. There had been a concern for the British that the great number of New Englanders living in Nova Scotia presented a challenge and an increase in the number of loyal Scots would certainly alter the demographics of Nova Scotia and ensure a reliable and loyal population should war break out again.

The 1871 census of Canada reported that 157 of every thousand Canadians was of Scottish origin. Over 33% of the population of Nova Scotia was of Scottish heritage.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
9/13/2022 10:09:10 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The US never did have to invade Canada to get concessions from Great Britain. All they had to do was threaten to invade.


This needs fleshing out. Are we still talking about the War of 1812?


George


Tensions between the US and Great Britain escalated during the American Civil War when a US Navy ship stopped a British ship carrying Confederate envoys to Great Britain. Evidently GB had forgotten the Royal Navy stopping American ships and impressing seaman into the Royal Navy. (This impressing of seamen ended with the War of 1812).

The US was already pre-occupied with a Civil War, and really didn't want to go to War with Great Britain. However, GB came to the realization that they were at a distinct disadvantage regarding the US and attempting to go to war. Palmerston, though anti-slavery, was also anti-American for he realized the potential of the US as a serious competitor to GB in the economic world ( which the US surpassed during World War 1)
What put GB at a distinct disadvantage?

1. The distance to North America which GB found a burden in 1777, was now a longer distance ( if you believe the tectonic theory of Geology).
2. The Canadian forts along the border had fallen into disrepair. And so had the Canadian militia.
3. The US had a population of British subjects called Irishmen who would have enlisted in droves to fight against Great Britain and then at the Peace Conference, demand a free and Independent Ireland.
4, The St Lawrence River still freezes during the Winter, making the re-supply of any British Army units problematic if not impossible. Logistics wins wars.
5. In 1860 GB could not feed its population and had to import food. Upwards of 50% of the food imported to GB came from the American Midwest. So, ask yourself, would GB bite the hand that is feeding them?
6. GB had a great interest in American railroads which they stood to lose.
7. Both the US Navy and the Royal Navy had ironclads. But the American ironclads could go up rivers. The British ironclads could not.
8. GB sent 12,000 soldiers to Canada during this crisis....the equivalent of the 6th Corps in the AoP at Gettysburg.
9. Though the British aristocracy still smarted from the loss in 1781 in the American Revolution, the common man and worker realized that the American Civil War was a war between slave-labor and wage-labor, and they would have never supported a war against wage-earners.
10. GB, having already out-lawed slavery, could not now support the existence of a country whose economy depended on that same slave labor.
11, Palmerston had to get the approval of Queen Victoria before going to war against the United States. In 1862, when the American Civil War was in the balance, Queen Victoria was in Prussia along with cabinet ministers. Prince Albert had convinced her before he died that GB should remain neutral.
12.Palmerston and GB tried the same intimidation tactics with Prussia in the mid 1860s. Recall that Prussia threatened war with Denmark for the provinces of Schleswig-Holstein. Palmerston wanted to support Denmark, but when Prussia did go to war with Denmark, GB offered no support. Why? Queen Victoria made it known that she favored Prussia, much to the chagrin and ire of her daughter-in-law.

Now, again in 1864, the US threatened war against GB. GB was allowing the building and out-fitting of ships that the Confederates were going use as raiding vessel against American merchant ships. Just before the US sent a message to our Ambassador to GB threatening war, the Government realized that they risked war with the US and immediately stopped the building of said ships.

So, growing tied of always being threatened with an American invasion Canada, Great Britain in 1867, 2 years after the American Civil War, gave Canada the responsibility for their own government and for their own defense. That took American threats right off the table.

So, basically, the American Civil War was the reason for Canadian Independence. (At least that was the reason given at Expo'67)
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
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This day in World History! Continued
9/14/2022 6:35:17 AM
The oddest thing about the ACW was who wound up with the British-built ironclad(s) when the CSN couldn't get them.
scoucer
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This day in World History! Continued
9/14/2022 8:30:51 AM
Quote:
The oddest thing about the ACW was who wound up with the British-built ironclad(s) when the CSN couldn't get them.


I was born and grew up in Liverpool.

[Read More]

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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This day in World History! Continued
9/14/2022 9:02:59 AM
From my understanding, the Laird Rams were bought by the British Government.

And this was before the Alabama Claims proceedings at the Court of Arbitration in Geneva—proceedings that resulted in a judgment of $15,500,000 against Great Britain
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/14/2022 9:41:35 AM
Gentlemen,

Great posts on Great Britains role in both the War of 1812, & the ACW! Never realized the Scots migration to the Atlantic Maritime area, of what would become Canada, was a great defense for any invasion from the New England Area, interesting perspective. Always learning new history on this site!? Please continue! I.read a history on the British produced, CSA Shenandoah, which sank 38 Union ships mostly in the Pacific Whaling Fleet! They didn't stop sinking ships til.even a year after Appomattox! I wonder what reparations if any that they GB had to pay for this damage?? Anyone?

What say you?
Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
9/14/2022 10:05:24 AM
After years of unsuccessful U.S. diplomatic initiatives, a Joint High Commission meeting in Washington, D.C. during the early part of 1871 arrived at the basis for a settlement. The British Government expressed regret for its contribution to the success of Confederate commerce raiders. This agreement, dated May 8, 1871, and known as the Treaty of Washington, also established an arbitration commission to evaluate the merit of U.S. financial claims on Britain. In addition, the treaty addressed Anglo-American disputes over boundaries and fishing rights. The arbitration commission, which issued its decision in September 1872, rejected American claims for indirect damages, but did order Britain to pay the United States $15.5 million as compensation for the Alabama claims.

After international arbitration endorsed the American position in 1872, Britain settled the matter by paying the United States $15.5 million, ending the dispute and leading to a treaty that restored friendly relations between Britain and the United States.
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