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NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
9/26/2022 7:07:22 AM
Recovering Detroit was the benefit of American dominance.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
9/26/2022 7:11:31 AM
And the bottom line, the RN recovered from the punch in their nose , and stopped the practice of removing alleged RN deserters from American merchant ships.

One might hope they even the greatest Anglophile would see the error of the greatest military and naval power in there world. Bullies need to be confronted, and not appeased.

But for some reason, I fear that GB didn't learn that lesson.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/26/2022 7:52:20 AM
Quote:
George,

That is a bit much when you say, I find it "shameful"!? really " shameful"!!?? That the US fought Britain while they were fighting other European countries like France!? Did you find it shameful that the British stopped US ships and impressed sailors off it!? Let's keep shameful out of this arguement!?

All's fair in love & war!?

Regards,
MD


That was the British point of view MD. They considered that they were fighting for all of the freedom loving nations. They were fighting to ensure that the world trading system was not controlled by Napoleon and his Continental System, and this attack on their North American possessions was a betrayal. Shameful is the correct word as the British were disgusted that the US would take advantage of that situation.

I haven't really offered an opinion on impressment. There is no doubt that some Americans were scooped as there is no doubt that the US did nothing to stop deserters from the RN from entering the US and gaining employment on merchant vessels.

There are historians who believe that the US overreacted to the impressment issue and with its nose firmly out of joint went to war at the behest of some radical politicians called the war hawks, led by Henry Clay. The war was not popular with the people nor many of the politicians. The vote in the Senate was 19-13 in favour of war and Madison signed the order the next day.

The US was not ready to fight a war but with its honour sullied and feeling disrespected, it caused an unnecessary war in North America.

Do I think that boarding a foreign vessel to search for deserters is appropriate? Not today but back then, many nations were doing it and that includes the US.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/26/2022 8:18:56 AM
Quote:
Hey guys,

Bringing over our last list of major events from the previous page for easy viewing!?

Lets check out new dates & history! Like 9-21,

1823 Joseph Smith Starts the Mormon Church when he sees a Angel!? What say you about the Mormons??

1931 England goes off the Gold standard! How did this effect the worlds economy back then!? Comments?

1950 comedian Bill Murray is born! Personally I think he's 1 of the best at his trade!? What is your fav. BM movie? I really liked, "What about Bob"!! ☺

1981 Belize becomes independent from GB! How & why did this happen?? Anyone?

9-22 events!??

1609 Moors driven out of Spain! Why didn't Muslims & Catholics get along back then? How's it going today?? Comments?

1692 the last of the Salem Witch Trials! How could they really believe in witches at this time!? Anyone??

1776 Nathan Hale a US officer executed by the British! He said I only regret that I have only 1 life to give to my country! He then became an immortal hero to the US cause! Why did the Brits kill such a brave man? Anyone??

1980 War between Iraq, & Iran begins! Just who was the bad guy in this war!?? What say you??

2002 the beginning of banning Fox Hunting in Great Britain! What was wrong with A bunch of royal rich dudes killing foxes!?? Comments?

On 9-23 check these out! Comments?

1779 off the British Coast US naval officer, John Paul Jones sinks the enemy ship Serapis! becoming an American hero! What say you?

1806 Lewis & Clarke return from mapping the new Louisiana Purchase! How accurate were they? One of them died controversial, soon afterwards? Who & what happened?? BTW were They were fair to the British?? Anyone?

1862 Otto Von Bismarck comes to power! Was he an aggressive war leader!? Was this the beginning of a military based government in Germany!? Anyone?

1949 Rocker Bruce Springsteen was born! Was he really the Boss!? What of Elvis, he was the King after all!!? & others? Anyone??

& finally today 9-24 these events! Please comment on any!??

1755 there are 9 justices in the Supreme Court! Is serving their lifetimes really right? Do they reflect the majority of all US Citizens? What say you?? How can the Court be more fair??

1960 1st Nuclear power sub, the USS Enterprise is launched! Does she still serve? Anyone on her history??

2015 thousands of pilgrims died in Mecca! How could this possibly happen in a religious place!? Anyone??

Now I go to all the trouble to post such a huge thread, please comment on as many events that interests you!?

Regards,
MD[/quote/]

Hey George,

What are you trying to do drag me into your argument on the war of 1812, with NYGiant? If I recall you & I had this debate a year or 2 ago, neither one of us gave in!? As to who won, regardless, if you ask most Americans on the street, they almost to a man would say US all the way!!!! Perception becomes fact to US!!!

Checking 9-26, in history a couple of events are?

1580 Sir Francis Drake completes his circumnavigation of the world! Was he a Pirate, British Admiral, A Knight? Or what?? What say you??

1815 Prussia, Russia, & Austria form the Holy Alliance! What was it's effect on Europe?? How did the Brits view them?? Anyone?

Let's be civil!?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
9/26/2022 8:39:59 AM
HI,
Sorry but I need to correct a comment...

John Paul Jones and the Bonhomme Richard defeated the Royal Navy ship, the Serapis. This is where Jones exclaimed the war cry of the Us Navy...I have not yet begun to fight! The Bonhomme Richard won the fight, decisively, but was so damaged, it sank 2 days after the battle.

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/26/2022 1:28:23 PM
Quote:
Hey George,

What are you trying to do drag me into your argument on the war of 1812, with NYGiant? If I recall you & I had this debate a year or 2 ago, neither one of us gave in!? As to who won, regardless, if you ask most Americans on the street, they almost to a man would say US all the way!!!! Perception becomes fact to US!!!


Actually MD, you inserted yourself into the debate remember. With this:

Quote:
George,

That is a bit much when you say, I find it "shameful"!? really " shameful"!!?? That the US fought Britain while they were fighting other European countries like France!? Did you find it shameful that the British stopped US ships and impressed sailors off it!? Let's keep shameful out of this arguement!?

All's fair in love & war!?


I don't mean to be harsh but if most Americans on the street claim that they won the War of 1812 then they have not studied it or perhaps have not been taught anything of this conflict. Your own historians would not concur with the man on the street so where is this fiction coming from?

Despite having my points ignored I think that I have proved that at best, the War of 1812 was a draw. Many of the historians that I have read concur with that point of view. Others including some American historians, say that the British won.

For those of us in Upper Canada, it was a clear victory and part of the historical narrative that may be part myth that the brave militia of UC drove the US invader from the province, and several times at that.

For the British, they seem to have largely ignored this sideshow since they it took place while they were involved in a life and death struggle with Napoleon. By comparison, the war in North America was more of an annoyance than anything.

Canadian military historian Charles Stacey commented that the War of 1812 is "“one of those episodes in history that make everybody happy, because everybody interprets it in his own way.”

Quote:
The Americans think of it as primarily a naval war in which the pride of the Mistress of the Sea was humbled by what an imprudent Englishman had called “a few fir-built frigates, manned by a handful of bastards and outlaws.” Canadians think of it equally pridefully as a war of defence in which their brave fathers, side by side, turned back the massed might of the United States and saved the country from conquest. And the English are the happiest of all, because they don’t even know it happened.


source: Charles Stacey

Quote:
Did the cost in blood and treasure justify the U.S. decision to go to war? Most Republicans thought it did. In the beginning they called the contest a 'second war of independence', and while Britain's maritime practices never truly threatened the Republic's independence, the war did in a broad sense vindicate U.S. sovereignty. But it ended in a draw on the battlefield"
. source: Donald Hickey, US historian



So I am not concerned whether you or I or anyone else trumpets that it was a victory. I do become a tad upset when claims are made about events or battles in this war, and are factually incorrect.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
9/26/2022 4:43:22 PM
Even we Americans who have studied the War of 1812, know that it was an American victory, that the fledging US stood up t the bully tactics of GB and again defeated them on the seas and on the land

Plus it was GB diplomacy and foreign policy to make sure that no European power grew more powerful than GB.

Yea, I feel that same way about incorrect facts. Someone here said that John Paul Jones sank the Serapis!!
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/26/2022 9:01:58 PM
Quote:
Even we Americans who have studied the War of 1812, know that it was an American victory, that the fledging US stood up t the bully tactics of GB and again defeated them on the seas and on the land

Plus it was GB diplomacy and foreign policy to make sure that no European power grew more powerful than GB.

Yea, I feel that same way about incorrect facts. Someone here said that John Paul Jones sank the Serapis!!



You can keep saying it but you don't seen to know how to substantiate. You purport to deal in facts and yet offer only opinions and even those are jingoistic.

But there is little point in a continuation of this with you.

BTW, the someone who said that JPJ sank the Serapis was Michigan Dave in his introduction of the topic.

EDIT: Sorry MD. Not trying to throw you under the bus but I can't let this one go by.

This is what I said:

Quote:
Certainly a "feel good" story for the insurrectionists I suppose? It was a tactical victory for Jones though his ship was severely damaged and he abandoned it, allowing it to sink, while he transferred to the British ship.



NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
9/27/2022 7:41:35 AM
The pesky fact remains that the fledgling US went to war to stop the impressment of sailors on American merchant ships. And that practice stopped after the War of 1812. The fact remains that the fledgling US repelled 3 British invasions. The US re-captured the city of Detroit. The US did not lose 1 acre of territory.

Those are all facts.



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/27/2022 8:32:50 AM
Quote:
Even we Americans who have studied the War of 1812, know that it was an American victory, that the fledging US stood up t the bully tactics of GB and again defeated them on the seas and on the land

Plus it was GB diplomacy and foreign policy to make sure that no European power grew more powerful than GB.

Yea, I feel that same way about incorrect facts. Someone here said that John Paul Jones sank the Serapis!!



Hey NYG, & George,

Would you have a problem if someone said Lee lost at Gettysburg, or Monty beat Rommel in N. Africa, or Lord Nelson won at Trafalgar! Certainly not!? In none of those statements did we mean these commanders did these military accomplishments on their own!???

That's how I meant JPJ defeated the Serapis! Of course he had the help of all on board! That's obvious!?

Sometimes you guys can get a little abrasive!? ☺
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
9/27/2022 8:44:24 AM
Fact is....the Bonhomme Richard did defeat the Serapis. However, the Bonhomme Richard suffered so much damage, that Jones and his crew took over the Serapis, which was still sea-worthy.

The Bonhomme Richard, the victor in the battle, sank.

So, the Serapis did not sink.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/28/2022 12:46:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Hey guys,

Recent topics!? Comment on any??

Lets check out new dates & history! Like 9-21,

1823 Joseph Smith Starts the Mormon Church when he sees a Angel!? What say you about the Mormons??

1931 England goes off the Gold standard! How did this effect the worlds economy back then!? Comments?

1950 comedian Bill Murray is born! Personally I think he's 1 of the best at his trade!? What is your fav. BM movie? I really liked, "What about Bob"!! ☺

1981 Belize becomes independent from GB! How & why did this happen?? Anyone?

9-22 events!??

1609 Moors driven out of Spain! Why didn't Muslims & Catholics get along back then? How's it going today?? Comments?

1692 the last of the Salem Witch Trials! How could they really believe in witches at this time!? Anyone??

1776 Nathan Hale a US officer executed by the British! He said I only regret that I have only 1 life to give to my country! He then became an immortal hero to the US cause! Why did the Brits kill such a brave man? Anyone??

1980 War between Iraq, & Iran begins! Just who was the bad guy in this war!?? What say you??

2002 the beginning of banning Fox Hunting in Great Britain! What was wrong with A bunch of royal rich dudes killing foxes!?? Comments?

On 9-23 check these out! Comments??

1806 Lewis & Clarke return from mapping the new Louisiana Purchase! How accurate were they? One of them died controversial, soon afterwards? Who & what happened?? BTW were They were fair to the British?? Anyone?

1862 Otto Von Bismarck comes to power! Was he an aggressive war leader!? Was this the beginning of a military based government in Germany!? Anyone?

1949 Rocker Bruce Springsteen was born! Was he really the Boss!? What of Elvis, he was the King after all!!? & others? Anyone??

9-24 these events! Please comment on any!??

1755 there are 9 justices in the Supreme Court! Is serving their lifetimes really right? Do they reflect the majority of all US Citizens? What say you?? How can the Court be more fair??

1960 1st Nuclear power sub, the USS Enterprise is launched! Does she still serve? Anyone on her history??

2015 thousands of pilgrims died in Mecca! How could this possibly happen in a religious place!? Anyone??

Regards,
MD[/quote/]

Checking 9-26, in history a couple of events are?

1580 Sir Francis Drake completes his circumnavigation of the world! Was he a Pirate, British Admiral, A Knight? Or what?? What say you??

1815 Prussia, Russia, & Austria form the Holy Alliance! What was it's effect on Europe?? How did the Brits view them?? Anyone?

9-27

1066 William & the Normans invade England, this will change England substantially!? Comments?

1918 the Allies attack the Hindenburg line, what effect on WWI will it have!? Anyone?

9-28,

1542 Juan Cabrillo, discovers California for Spain! I thought the natives had already settled it!? What say you?

1781 the Americans, & French are about to trap Cornwallis at Yorktown! Could they the Patriots have won without the aid of the French? Comments, anyone??

Regards,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/28/2022 4:44:01 PM
d
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/29/2022 7:16:07 AM
Quote:
1918 the Allies attack the Hindenburg line, what effect on WWI will it have!? Anyone?


This event fits within the period of the war often referred to as the, "last 100 days" or just the "100 days"

As for the Hindenburg Line, it was a heavily fortified defence in depth that the Germans had been working on throughout the war. However by the end of September, the German forces were weary and morale was low.

On Aug. 8, 1918 the allies initiated a grand attack against the German forces at Amiens and pushed them back several kilometres. From the date, the push was on to send the German forces back to Germany.

The 100 days would prove to be costly for the allies in casualties and for the Germans who were now losing.

To my point however, the Hindenburg Line was attacked in a series of battles.

On Sept. 2, the Canadian Corps and British divisions attacked the Drocourt-Quéant Line. (D-Q line) at the northernmost end of the Hindenburg Line. The D-Q line has been described as the hinge of the Hindenburg Line but I have never been able to figure out why. It was also one of the best prepared and defended parts of the Hindenburg Line.

Some descriptions of the D-Q line say that it was a defensive line just in front of the main Hindenburg Line.

So the Canadians and British who fought and won here claim that they were the first to breach the Hindenburg Line.

The battle fought on Sept. 29 was for the St. Quentin Canal and at great cost to the British, Australians and Americans, a breach was successful here as well. An important victory to be sure and each of the countries participating have their own story to tell.

[Read More]. USA

[Read More]. UK

[Read More]. Australia

There is a lot of praise to spread around in this battle but I particularly enjoy reading about the Australians at Mont St. Quentin.


Meanwhile to the north in the same time period (Sept. 27 - Oct. 1), the Canadian Corps was attacking the Canal du Nord in one of the most audacious battles of the war. As St. Quentin was being breached the Canadians turned the corner to the north and breached the last prepared defensive position facing the British 1st Army. After this, the Germans were on the run.

It is difficult for me to see the breach of the Hindenburg Line as a single battle event. And that takes nothing away from the monumental victory at St. Quentin Canal.

Cheers,

George



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/29/2022 11:15:29 AM
Hi George,

Thanks for the informative reply on the Hindenburg line! Also being fair by putting websites on the countries involved! The "read more" site from the UK was especially enlightening! The photos on the site were incredibly clear!
Showing what it was like at this time, & place!? I also loved the website the historypress! It has so much depth about other historical topics! I invite all of MHO to explore it, I have spent a good deal of time in the Explorers branch of the site, especially the Polar sections on Scott, & Amundsen, truly enlightening, explore the various history presented on this site, you won't be disappointed!?

Thanks George!
Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/29/2022 12:42:45 PM
A much valued contribution, George, thank you.

People tend to dismiss the achievements of that terrible war, and regard it as a display of incompetence, callousness and futility, underwritten by slaughter on a stupefying scale.

No denying the scale of the killing : and those last hundred days stand out as pretty appalling in terms of the casualties suffered by the Allies and the Germans.

It must be emphasised that the skill and resolve of the attacking Allies in the final battles put the dismal caricature of the Great War into a different perspective.

Please let me put in a word for the New Zealanders who fought in those closing months . Their contribution is too often overlooked: they fought fiercely and successfully, and suffered a loss of life that, in proportion to their population, exceeded that of Canada and Australia.

Of all the achievements of the British Commonwealth in arms, the victorious advance of the Hundred Days of 1918 must surely rank supreme.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/29/2022 12:58:12 PM
Thanks Phil. I am embarrassed that I forgot the New Zealanders. If my memory serves, they were involved in the Battle of Canal du Nord, so they were quite close to the Canadian Corps.

The New Zealand advance is marked by the red arrow on this map.



[Read More]

Cheers,

George

Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/29/2022 9:14:18 PM
On this day in 1829, the first professional police force in England was established. There were, IIUC, earlier policing services in one form or another going back at least 400 years, but they were typically armed troops paid by and in service to powerful local/area families of consequence. The increased urbanization of Britain was leading to more extensive legal controls, but without a stable, paid force dedicated to upholding the law, all the laws in the world could not be applied in some of the poorer areas of major cities. It was Sir Robert Peel who was instrumental in creating the Metropolitan Police Force, also known as Scotland Yard.

Some trivia about the force, and about Peel’s links with them. “Scotland Yard” has nothing directly to do with Scotland. The rear entrance to the Metropolitan Police’s main building was through Scotland Yard, a short walk SE of Charing Cross. From the beginning they were recognized as a different kind of policing agency from other security forces, and were soon called “Peelers”, a term you can still hear on tellie. “Peeler” is, of course, an identifier for members of Peel’s force. Later, all uniformed professional police in GB (? or was it just in England?) were called “bobbies”, another tribute to Sir Robert.

Just to round this out a bit, there is still an idiom to describe how things become easy if you do a certain thing: “Bob’s your uncle!”. Its a comment suggesting that if you’ve to the ear of somebody in power, you can’t go wrong. Uncle Bob is, of course, Sir Robert Peel, a major force in British society and politics for 30 years, starting in 1820.

Trivia, perhaps, rather than history. But arguably of historical significance.

Cheers
Brian G



----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 8:42:25 AM
Brian :

Bob’s your uncle !
.
To which the traditional response is :

And Fanny’s your Aunt !

This, I suspect, comes from popular Music Hall culture prevalent in British culture in the later nineteenth century .

There are various suggestions as to the provenance, some, I daresay, of a bawdy nature.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 12:00:27 PM
Recent dates, & topics, Comments anyone??

Checking 9-26, in history a couple of events are?

1580 Sir Francis Drake completes his circumnavigation of the world! Was he a Pirate, British Admiral, A Knight? Or what?? What say you??

1815 Prussia, Russia, & Austria form the Holy Alliance! What was it's effect on Europe?? How did the Brits view them?? Anyone?

9-27

1066 William & the Normans invade England, this will change England substantially!? Comments?

1918 the Allies attack the Hindenburg line, what effect on WWI will it have!? George did a great job explaining this! Thanks!!

9-28,

1542 Juan Cabrillo, discovers California for Spain! I thought the natives had already settled it!? What say you?

1781 the Americans, & French are about to trap Cornwallis at Yorktown! Could they the Patriots have won without the aid of the French? Comments, anyone??

Regards,
MD


Hi guys, Brian, speaking of the Bobbies of England, was it that violent, that they had to wear helmets??

Checking 9-29

1906 the US occupies Cuba, if they the US, were so imperialistic, why did they give it back right away to the Cubans?? What say you?

1961 Julia Gilliard becomes Australia's.1 st female Prime minister! Which country leads in promoting females as leaders?? Comments?

9-30 in history,

1895 the French occupy Madagascar! How, & Why??

1927 Babe Ruth hits 60 homers, yesterday Aaron Judge hit #61, how has drugs played a part in baseball power #s??

1949 Berlin Airlift succeeds in stopping the Berlin blockade! How did they do it?? Anyone?

1954 the US Nautilaus is the 1st Atomic Powered Sub! How many Nuclear Subs now?.& what countries have the most? Any websites on it???

Seize the day!
MD

1938 Neville Chamberlain. Holds peace agreement, saying we have peace in our time! With Hitler, how could he be so wrong!??


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 12:33:11 PM
Quote:
1906 the US occupies Cuba, if they the US, were so imperialistic, why did they give it back right away to the Cubans?? What say you?


The US history with respect to Cuba is fraught with attempts to control the political situation on that island eventually leading to a revolution and the expulsion of foreigners who controlled the economy. US investors had turned Cuba into a US sugar island.

The declaration of independence for Cuba was a bit of a sham as the Cubans were never really in control of their destiny.

Cuba is still paying for that act of revolt as they have spent 50 years under sanctions that have prevented the Cubans from succeeding.

As well, the US proved that it could not resist the lure of empire and imperialism when it won the Spanish-American war in 1898. It did pay Spain for the Philippines. Spain also ceded Guam and Puerto Rico.

EDIT: There was a sizeable segment of the US population that was opposed in principle to the ownership of foreign property. They felt that they had thrown off the yoke of imperialism and should not place that yoke on the shoulders of another.

The Filipinos had anticipated that they would be independent after the US defeated Spain but that did not happen and the people rose up against the US. The war that followed was quite terrible and the US was accused of practising genocide.

The US never controlled as much foreign territory as some of the other imperialists but they were part of this movement.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 12:54:05 PM





MD

1938 Neville Chamberlain. Holds peace agreement, saying we have peace in our time! With Hitler, how could he be so wrong!??




Recent scholarship indicates that in 1938, Great Britain was not ready for war. And that the Munich Agreement was just to buy some time.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 2:43:36 PM
He didn't say "Peace in our time" at the airport where he was waving the "piece of paper" as Hitler called. The quote is from his address to Parliament, IIRC.

(Don't have my references here.)
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 2:44:12 PM
Dupe.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 4:13:54 PM
Quote:
He didn't say "Peace in our time" at the airport where he was waving the "piece of paper" as Hitler called. The quote is from his address to Parliament, IIRC.

(Don't have my references here.)


Also without sources to hand, I think he said that the piece of paper symbolised the wish of “ our two countries never to go to war with each other again.”

I’m tempted to google search old footage and see how reliable my memory is !

The news today from Russia really makes us think about that old trope that, while history does not repeat itself, it certainly rhymes.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 6:50:42 PM
MD, you ask: “… Brian, speaking of the Bobbies of England, was it that violent, that they had to wear helmets?”

I would say about as violent as Chicago, where the police wear body armour and travel in armoured cars! Just kidding.

Scotland Yard was in business for 40 years before the well-known bobbie helmet was introduced; my guess is that there was a different kind of violence and lawlessness in 1868 than in 1829. Originally, peelers wore top hats; the bobbie helmet, though modelled on the Prussian Pickelhaube, was originally made not of metal but of cork. I would argue that the head gear, in keeping with most uniforms in general, was designed in equal parts to make identification easier in a variety of circumstances, to add height (and therefore a kind of formidability) to the wearer, and for other less obvious reasons. Cork, in addition to providing a waterproof cover, would be both an insulator and a cushioner.  Bobbies would appreciate such small mercies, I think.

Cheers,
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 7:57:00 PM
Thank you, Mr Chamberlain, for your astuteness!  The Munich accord was, IMHO, an indicator of a number of things. Hitler, for instance, got what he wanted – Sudetenland, industry, military factories producing excellent products – without effort, even before he manipulated the collapse of the Czech Rump. Chamberlain got what he fervently hoped was a step back from a war he dreaded for a host of both good and bad reasons. France received a reprieve from a war they were loathe to fight. Even Italy, with nothing at stake, got a chance to let Il Duce sit at the big boys’ table.

While I’m aware of arguments re Britain’s lack of readiness for war in October 1938, I’m also cognizant that Germany was gambling over Czechoslovakia just as it would gamble over Poland, but perhaps against greater greater odds. To be sure, British military development accelerated after 30 Sept 1938, and even more after the collapse of the Slovak remainder in early 1939. But German development and preparation grew at an equivalent pace.

More intriguing, at the moment, are variants on Phil’s “The news today from Russia really makes us think about that old trope that, while history does not repeat itself, it certainly rhymes.”

Two or three days ago, I raised the question of whether Mr Putin’s decision to announce his declaration over Ukranian Oblasts on Sept 30 might be one more calculated provocation to the West. Today, it seems to me this was deliberate, and that it indicates Mr Putin’s intentions. 

Lots more to think about, as always. But as one of my buddies mentioned at lunch today, “Are we doomed to spend our last years waiting for an atomic toxic strike?”

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2022 8:14:02 PM
Corner of King St. and Yonge St. in downtown Toronto, 1912



Toronto Police enter ring to protect referee of a boxing match, 1920



There is a cultural explanation for the adoption of British style head dress in Canada.

But how do we explain this photo below?

New York Police Department 1909




I can't see this custodian style helmet as practical in a Canadian or US winter.

Cheers,

George

EDIT: Here you go, MD. Detroit Police. I don't have the date of the photo but Detroit has had a police force since the US Civil War.




Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/1/2022 7:48:22 PM
Hi George,

Great picks of Bobbies in Toronto, & Detroit! You wonder how could they run down crooks in those outfits!?

I guess some rode bikes or horses!?

& Brian, lets hope your wrong on how we spend our last days!!?

Peace,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/1/2022 9:50:49 PM
Uhoh … “& Brian, lets hope your wrong on how we spend our last days!!?

Um, MD, what did I say? I remember mentioning the Doomsday Clock at one point; is that what you’re referring to?

Your comment kinda spooked me, because T.S. Eliot has been in the (peripheral) news quite often recently, and I’ve been wondering about writing something about him. At least some of his poetry fits with your comment, but I haven’t written about it yet.

Try, e.g., the final stanza of “The Hollow Men” (1925):
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

Or look at the final stanzas but two of “Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock” (1915):
I grow old… I grow old…
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.

I do not think that they will sing to me.”

I don’t know which option is bleaker, to be honest. But it seems the former is more likely and the latter would be a personal hell.

Cheers,
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/2/2022 9:23:45 AM
Quote:
Thank you, Mr Chamberlain, for your astuteness! The Munich accord was, IMHO, an indicator of a number of things. Hitler, for instance, got what he wanted – Sudetenland, industry, military factories producing excellent products – without effort, even before he manipulated the collapse of the Czech Rump. Chamberlain got what he fervently hoped was a step back from a war he dreaded for a host of both good and bad reasons. France received a reprieve from a war they were loathe to fight. Even Italy, with nothing at stake, got a chance to let Il Duce sit at the big boys’ table.


While I’m aware of arguments re Britain’s lack of readiness for war in October 1938, I’m also cognizant that Germany was gambling over Czechoslovakia just as it would gamble over Poland, but perhaps against greater greater odds. To be sure, British military development accelerated after 30 Sept 1938, and even more after the collapse of the Slovak remainder in early 1939. But German development and preparation grew at an equivalent pace.


[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"More intriguing, at the moment, are variants on Phil’s “[span style="font-style: italic;"The news today from Russia really makes us think about that old trope that, while history does not repeat itself, it certainly rhymes[/span].”[/span]

[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Two or three days ago, I raised the question of whether Mr Putin’s decision to announce his declaration over Ukranian Oblasts on Sept 30 might be one more calculated provocation to the West. Today, it seems to me this was deliberate, and that it indicates Mr Putin’s intentions. [/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Lots more to think about, as always. But as one of my buddies mentioned at lunch today, “[span style="font-style: italic;"Are we doomed to spend our last years waiting for an atomic toxic strike[/span]?”[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Cheers[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Brian G[/span]



Hi Brian,

The line I refer to is the last one on this post! "Are we doomed to spend our last years waiting for an Atomic toxic strike"! Actually said by your friend!?

A bit alarming, wouldn't you say!?
MD

BTW not sure why I get all this extra stuff when I quoted Brian!?????

Also TS Eliot's comments in his poem the Hollow Men, 1925,is also frightening!!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/2/2022 9:44:38 AM
Quote:
MD, you ask: “…[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);" Brian, speaking of the Bobbies of England, was it that violent, that they had to wear helmets?”[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]

[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"I would say about as violent as Chicago, where the police wear body armour and travel in armoured cars! Just kidding.[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Scotland Yard was in business for 40 years before the well-known bobbie helmet was introduced; my guess is that there was a different kind of violence and lawlessness in 1868 than in 1829. Originally, peelers wore top hats; the bobbie helmet, though modelled on the Prussian Pickelhaube, was originally made not of metal but of cork. I would argue that the head gear, in keeping with most uniforms in general, was designed in equal parts to make identification easier in a variety of circumstances, to add height (and therefore a kind of formidability) to the wearer, and for other less obvious reasons. Cork, in addition to providing a waterproof cover, would be both an insulator and a cushioner. Bobbies would appreciate such small mercies, I think.[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"
[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Cheers,[/span]
[span style="letter-spacing: 0.14994px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 255);"Brian G[/span]


Also Brian,

Your right on about Chicago & other major cities, Police do wear riot gear, & body armor!? In this day & age, they pretty much have to!? What say you??

MD

BTW do you use the newer MHO website? I don't yet!? Maybe that's why when I quote your posts I get all the extra gibberish? Brian W. is that why??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/2/2022 10:05:20 AM
Hey guys,

Moving on to October, on the 1st, these events occurred! Comments!?

331 bce, Alexander the Great, & his army defeated the Persians! Why were the Greeks always able to beat Persia!?
What say you??

1553 Mary I is crowned Queen of England, does she deserve to be called Bloody Mary! Anyone??

1946 22 of 24 Nazis convicted of war crimes! Was this just?? Comments??

1949 Communist China is established! They today are making artificial islands!? What do you think of that!? Why??

Moving on!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
10/2/2022 10:15:41 AM
Quote:

1946 22 of 24 Nazis convicted of war crimes! Was this just?? Comments??



Moving on!
MD


I already have a thread about this at the World War II section.

They all received a fair trial. Something that they denied to the Jews and the Poles.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/2/2022 8:30:02 PM
Quote:
Hey guys,

Moving on to October, on the 1st, these events occurred! Comments!?

331 bce, Alexander the Great, & his army defeated the Persians! Why were the Greeks always able to beat Persia!?
What say you??

1553 Mary I is crowned Queen of England, does she deserve to be called Bloody Mary! Anyone??

1946 22 of 24 Nazis convicted of war crimes! Was this just?? Comments??

1949 Communist China is established! They today are making artificial islands!? What do you think of that!? Why??

Moving on!
MD


Forgot to post some history from today 10-2's events! Comments??

1780 John Andre is executed as A spy! Did he take the fall for Benedict Arnold! They tried to take West Point!

1869 Mahatma Gandhi, is born! Do you see any parallels with his life, & Martin Luther King Jr.'s? Anyone?

1935 Italy invades Ethiopia! Why?? What say you??

Seize the day!!

1836 Charles Darwin returns to England, stating we evolved from.ape like humanoids! Do you buy this? Comments?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2022 4:18:57 PM
Quote:
Corner of King St. and Yonge St. in downtown Toronto, 1912



Toronto Police enter ring to protect referee of a boxing match, 1920



There is a cultural explanation for the adoption of British style head dress in Canada.

But how do we explain this photo below?

New York Police Department 1909




I can't see this custodian style helmet as practical in a Canadian or US winter.

Cheers,

George

EDIT: Here you go, MD. Detroit Police. I don't have the date of the photo but Detroit has had a police force since the US Civil War.







Hi George,

I guess it helps to have a mustache to be a Detroit Policeman! It's good to see officers of the law in the old city of York, especially on Yonge & King St. people around that area drive like maniacs!!??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2022 4:50:35 PM
Quote:
1780 John Andre is executed as A spy! Did he take the fall for Benedict Arnold! They tried to take West Point!


Perhaps he paid the price for Nathan Hale whose circumstances of arrest were similar and who was executed in short order. André was a British officer however. Was Hale in the military?

I don't know whether that matters. André was not in uniform when captured and he carried information that incriminated Benedict Arnold in his stockings. Certainly that didn't help is case.

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2022 4:53:12 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

I guess it helps to have a mustache to be a Detroit Policeman! It's good to see officers of the law in the old city of York, especially on Yonge & King St. people around that area drive like maniacs!!??

Regards,
MD


Dave, I don't think that anyone in downtown Toronto drives like a maniac because they aren't moving anywhere at all. At certain times of the day, the downtown core is a parking lot.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2022 8:58:43 AM
Hi George,

So true a few years back before Covid, I was driving down Yonge St & it was slow going, & not only that, in each block the pedestrians made me think I was in a different country! Such a multicultural city! Just what is the breakdown of Toronto? As far as nationality backgrounds goes??

Our geography lesson of the day! ☺
MD

BTW, I heard Canada has dropped it's Covid restrictions for border crossings! Is it true??
Leafs vrs. Wings, in preseason this week! Hopefully we'll see our (Wings), improvement!??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2022 9:48:47 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

So true a few years back before Covid, I was driving down Yonge St & it was slow going, & not only that, in each block the pedestrians made me think I was in a different country! Such a multicultural city! Just what is the breakdown of Toronto? As far as nationality backgrounds goes??

Our geography lesson of the day! ☺
MD


It is one of the most multicultural cities in the world. 52% are identified as "visible minorities". (Toronto demographics 2016)

Still 49% of the people in Toronto were born in Canada irrespective of their visibility.

Immigrants comprised 47% of the population of the city. Non-permanent residents (refugees, temporary status) make up 3% of the population.

This is a snapshot of all of ethnic origins in Ontario. Note that some people who were born in Canada choose to identify by ancestry (Scots, English etc) while others who were born in Canada identify themselves as only Canadian. They do not hyphenate.



The following chart shows the percentage of visible minorities in other parts of Ontario. You can see that many immigrants who are also visible minorities seem to migrate to the big cities. In the smaller towns and cities outside of the Greater Toronto and Hamilton area, you would notice the preponderance of caucasian faces.




So the immigrant breakdown in Toronto is:

1. China. 10%
2 Philippines. 9
3 India. 6
4 Sri Lanka. 4
5 Italy. 4
6 Jamaica. 4
7 United Kingdom. 3
8 Hong Kong. 3
9 Portugal. 3
10 Guyana. 3

Having said that, of the current group of immigrants to Toronto, (those that came in the last few years), the Filipinos are the fastest growing group comprising 17% of the recent immigrants. China at 12% and India at 11% are now in positions 2 and 3.

Of interest to you, citizens of the US comprise 2% of the more recent immigrant group.

Cheers,

George

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