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Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2022 7:11:29 PM
Phil, George;

Further to your discussion of Haig, am I wrong in believing that Haig was socially well-connected while David Lloyd George was not. I seem to remember reading some years ago that Haig was well-liked by George V. Place this against equally ancient memory that Mary of Teck saw Lloyd George as a lecher, and that neither she nor George wished to see LG PM, and you have a few tensions beyond the conduct of the war which could create tension between the two men.

As to Society’s assessment of Tommy Atkins v. Jack Tar, I assume it is my cynicism which reminds me that Tommy is perhaps too often in barracks while Jack is most often at sea, breeding fondness by his absence.

Yes, that’s a bit glib. But two or three other points arise, none of which I am sure is particularly salient:
•  IIUC, the Army’s historical role in England has been questionable since at least the Civil War, when it played a significant part in defeating and executing Charles I. Wasn’t Army funding dependent for funding on annual assessments well into WW1, if not beyond?
•  in British “society”, as well as British nobility, the concept of “service” makes the traditional roles of children of those classes somewhat bound: it’s not just the Royal Family who needs to worry about what to do with children born to a life of service. The Heir’s job is well defined and life-long; the Spare is, in theory, on hold in case something happens to the Heir. Other than that, there are Military and religious avenues which have traditionally been avenues by which the privileged may commit themselves to their “duty”. To be honest, I remain impressed by Prince Harry’s support of the Army he served so well, and his commitment to “Invictus” and its expansions.
•  I’m not sure that members of the armed services in the UK have been historically been treated or been viewed an a much different light than troops of other nations have been treated. In more than a few countries, a choice of prison or military service for certain criminal offences remained an option until there was universal conscription. Even today its possible to hear the argument that some time in the army would teach manners and proper conduct to misguided youth.

Just thinking with my fingers.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2022 8:33:29 PM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for the insight!!


"As to Society’s assessment of Tommy vrs Jack Tar, I assume it is my cynicism which reminds me that Tommy is perhaps too often in barracks while Jack is most often at sea, breeding fondness by his absence."

##Here in the US the most common phrase you hear to a military guy of any of the service branches, is "thank you for your service"! It's to bad that at times in Great Britain that Tommy, was treated with less respect than a Jack Tar? I guess the RN holds A more special place in the UK heart??## MD

. "In more than a few countries, a choice of prison or military service for certain criminal offences remained an option until there was universal conscription. Even today its possible to hear the argument that some time in the army would teach manners and proper conduct to misguided youth."

##Are you referring to the US draft? Especially Vietnam Draft!?? Then it's true!? ## MD


Just thinking with my fingers.


Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2022 8:43:28 PM
I was born in 1951, and I heard of guys choosing the military over prison, even in my town of 7,000 people in the middle of Indiana.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2022 12:20:24 AM
To this day, sailors in the Royal Navy refer to British soldiers as “ Pongos “.

The provenance of the name is the remarkable account of an English sailor by the name of Andrew Battel. He was captured by the Portuguese in Brazil at the beginning of the sixteenth century, transported to Africa and pressed into service in the Congo, where he served the Portuguese as a mercenary and made a good account of himself as a marksman and navigator.

His talents extended to chronicling his experience and making observations about the people and animals he encountered in this veritable “ Heart of Darkness “.

Prominent amongst these were large and powerful apes - presumably gorillas- known by the natives as
“ Pongos”.

I’m convinced that this is the derisory origin of the nickname given by British sailors to soldiers.

The story of Andrew Battel is worthy of an online foray.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2022 2:59:19 AM
Quote:
I was born in 1951, and I heard of guys choosing the military over prison, even in my town of 7,000 people in the middle of Indiana.


A couple of years younger than you, I distinctly remember a teacher in my school who sneered at one of my classmates and said :

“ You, young man, are fit to be nothing but a subaltern in the army.”

What does that say about British societal attitudes in the mid 1960s?

A subaltern is a junior officer, and of quite elevated status by the reckoning of most folks.

But didn’t a US politician- within the last decade or two- make a rather similar implication when he commented - or suggested- that enlistment in the army was the hallmark of social and educational failure ?

I’ll try and remember who it was . Al Gore or John Kerry come to my mind, but I’ll make a heartfelt apology if I’ve got that wrong.

Editing :

Looks like it was John Kerry.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2022 7:14:21 AM
On November 13, 1861, President Abraham Lincoln pays a late night visit to General George McClellan, who Lincoln had recently named general in chief of the Union army. The general retired to his chambers before speaking with the president.

This was the most famous example of McClellan’s cavalier disregard for the president’s authority. Lincoln had tapped McClellan to head the Army of the Potomac, the main Union army in the East, in July 1861 after the disastrous Union defeat at the First Battle of Bull Run, Virginia. McClellan immediately began to build an effective army, and was elevated to general in chief after Winfield Scott resigned that fall. McClellan drew praise for his military initiatives but quickly developed a reputation for his arrogance and contempt toward the political leaders in Washington, D.C. After being named to the top army post, McClellan began openly associating with Democratic leaders in Congress and showing his disregard for the Republican administration. To his wife,McClellan wrote that Lincoln was “nothing more than a well-meaning baboon,” and Secretary of State William Seward was an “incompetent little puppy.”

Lincoln made frequent evening visits to McClellan’s house to discuss strategy. On November 13, Lincoln, Seward, and presidential secretary John Hay stopped by to see the general. McClellan was out, so the trio waited for his return. After an hour, McClellan came in and was told by a porter that the guests were waiting. McClellan headed for his room without a word, and only after Lincoln waited another half-hour was the group informed of McClellan’s retirement to bed. Hay felt that the president should have been greatly offended, but Lincoln replied that it was “better at this time not to be making points of etiquette and personal dignity.” Lincoln made no more visits to the general’s home. In March 1862, the president removed McClellan as general in chief of the army.​
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2022 7:20:08 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I was born in 1951, and I heard of guys choosing the military over prison, even in my town of 7,000 people in the middle of Indiana.


A couple of years younger than you, I distinctly remember a teacher in my school who sneered at one of my classmates and said :

“ You, young man, are fit to be nothing but a subaltern in the army.”

What does that say about British societal attitudes in the mid 1960s?

A subaltern is a junior officer, and of quite elevated status by the reckoning of most folks.

But didn’t a US politician- within the last decade or two- make a rather similar implication when he commented - or suggested- that enlistment in the army was the hallmark of social and educational failure ?

I’ll try and remember who it was . Al Gore or John Kerry come to my mind, but I’ll make a heartfelt apology if I’ve got that wrong.

Editing :

Looks like it was John Kerry.

Regards, Phil



Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney told supporters that "there are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what" because they are "dependent upon government ... believe that they are victims ... believe the government has a responsibility to care for them ... these are people who pay no income tax."

What was said was this....The Massachusetts Democrat told a group of college students this week that people who do not study and do their homework were likely to "get stuck in Iraq." Kerry has since apologized, saying he botched a joke meant to be about President Bush.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2022 9:21:51 AM
Again, just reposting some topics, that went undiscussed, another chance to comment on them, anyone??

Quote:
07 Nov 1917 - Capture of Gaza, Palestine by the Australian Mounted Division (soon after they would be ordered out of town so Lawrence and his Arabs could claim victory).

08 Nov 1917 - The battle of El Mughar, Palestine by the Australian Light Horse.

09 Nov 1914 - HMAS Sydney (1) destroys the German Cruiser Emden at the Coco's Islands. This will be the RAN's first ship to ship action at sea.

Regards.



Hi Wazza,

That's what I'm talking about! Great history post on the actions of Australians in WWI! Wouldn't you know that the infamous "Lawrence of Arabia", would get the credit over the Australian Light Horse!? I also really find the destruction of the German Cruiser Emden in the Cocos Islands extremely interesting! Does anyone have a website or article on that famous German Cruiser!?

Thanks " Waz from Oz"!
MD

also lets check 11-9 in history! See below, & comment!?

1799 Napoleon siezes power after a coup in Paris! Why was the French military so pro Napoleon!? Anyone??

1888 Jack the Ripper, notorious serial-killer's murder spree comes to an end! How was he stopped!? Comments?

1922 Albert Einstein wins the Nobel peace Prize in Physics! Was All really as A genius as he is made out to be?? What say you??

1923 Hitler's attempts to take over the German Government are stopped,19 Nazis are killed! Adolf is imprisoned! Why wasn't this the end of his power hungry demented ways?? How did Hitler get out of this & still take over German leadership!? Websites, articles, videos, welcome!? Anyone??

Also today in 1938, an event involving the beginning of the end for Jews occurs in Germany!? I believe NYG touched on it!?? Any other takes on it??

1953 Cambodia becomes independent from France! Is this tied into the situation in Vietnam!? Then ultimately pulling the US in later?? What say you about Revolution in this area!? Comments??

1989, the opening of the Berlin Wall! What a great day for freedom loving Germans & Europeans!? The Soviet Union is beginning to falter!? What say you about how this event was achieved, & is Putin trying to revive the Soviet Union by taking the Ukraine!? Anyone??

Thanks, & Regards,
MD

BTW please continue with past discussions, & here are some new dates, & events!??

11-10-1871, Henry Stanley found Dr. David Livingston, & said this famous quote, "Dr. Livingston, I presume"?? Why did the Brits. make such a big deal over this?? Anyone?

1775 the US Marine Corps was founded to help fight four the American Patriot cause! Any websites or posts on the Marines??

On 11-11, of course the end of WWI, but what else??

1493 Columbus rediscovers the Island of St. Martins, another theft of a Native American Isle!?

1813 the Brits. win the Battle of Chrysler's Farm, why fight over a farm?? Anyone?

1878 the Cherry Valley Raid by the Iroquois, attacks Americans in NY state! Why were these Natives, pro British? What say you??

1831 Nate Turner has his famous slave rebellion! How did the South react?? Comments on its aftermath?? Anyone?

1880 Bush Ranger Ned Kelly was hanged in Oz! Why? Anyone?? Was Australia quite lawless??

11-12 in history,

1930 the British Empire is on the verge of losing India! Why? Anyone??

1954 Ellis Island closes! Where will immigrants go now??

& finally today, 11-13 in world events, check these out??

1850 Robert L. Stevenson was born, this great author chose to live for a while in the South Pacific! Paradise anyone?? What say you??

1916 the Battle of the Somme ends! Comments on this horrific battle, anyone??

2001 the Northern Alliance captures Kabul in Afghanistan! What ever happened to the N. Alliance? How did this lead to 9-11? Comments?

Peace,, & sieze the day!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2022 12:33:38 PM
George, & other MHO sports fans,

Also sports fans, just a side note, the CFL semifinals are today! Toronto Argos vrs. Montreal Alouettes from Toronto (1:00 pm). Also the BC Lions vrs. the Winnipeg Blue bombers playing in the other semi? (4:30pm)? George, & I are fans of the Double blue, Boatman, AKA Argos!! The winners play in the Grey Cup Championship game! Go to CFL.com to follow these games. It's colorful, wide open exciting, sport. I rather watch that then my dreadful Detroit Lions of the NFL.. You can watch the games live on some of the ESPN networks, break out the beers, & snacks! ☺

Check it out,
Go Arrrgoohhhs!
MD

PS sorry Brian G. & others who don't think sports belong on this site!??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2022 5:02:08 PM
Quote:
1813 the Brits. win the Battle of Chrysler's Farm, why fight over a farm?? Anyone?


I decided to respond to this in the pre WW1 section.

The actual spelling is Crysler and the battle was fought on the farmlands owned by John Crysler who was born in New York in 1770 and he served in the King's Royal Regiment during the American revolution. A staunch Loyalist, he left for Upper Canada after the war.

This battle was fought on land owned by a New Yorker and the commander of the British forces was also a New Yorker.

Anyway, I have given a more detailed response to this battle in the appropriate section of the forum.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2022 6:45:29 AM
On November 14, 1914, in Constantinople, capital of the Ottoman Empire, the religious leader Sheikh-ul-Islam declares an Islamic holy war on behalf of the Ottoman government, urging his Muslim followers to take up arms against Britain, France, Russia, Serbia and Montenegro in World War I.

By the time the Great War broke out in the summer of 1914, the Ottoman Empire was faltering, having lost much of its once considerable territory in Europe with its defeat in the First Balkan War two years earlier. Seeking to ally themselves with one of the great European powers to help safeguard them against future loss, the ambitious Ottoman leaders–members of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), known collectively as the Young Turks–responded favorably to overtures made by Germany in August 1914. Though Germany and Turkey secretly concluded a military alliance on August 2, the Turks did not officially take part in World War I until several months later. On October 29, the Ottoman navy–including two German ships, Goeben and Breslau, which famously eluded the British navy in the first week of the war to reach Constantinople–attacked Russian ports in the Black Sea, marking the beginning of Turkey’s participation in the war.

The sheikh’s declaration of a holy war, made two weeks later, urged Muslims all over the world—including in the Allied countries—to rise up and defend the Ottoman Empire, as a protector of Islam, against its enemies. “Of those who go to the Jihad for the sake of happiness and salvation of the believers in God’s victory,” the declaration read, “the lot of those who remain alive is felicity, while the rank of those who depart to the next world is martyrdom. In accordance with God’s beautiful promise, those who sacrifice their lives to give life to the truth will have honor in this world, and their latter end is paradise.”​
================================================== ================================================== =================================================
We are still living with the after-effects of the break-up of the Ottoman Empire.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2022 10:30:45 AM
Mostly recent undiscussed topics lets check 11-9 in history! See below, & comment!?

1799 Napoleon siezes power after a coup in Paris! Why was the French military so pro Napoleon!? Anyone??

1888 Jack the Ripper, notorious serial-killer's murder spree comes to an end! How was he stopped!? Comments?

1922 Albert Einstein wins the Nobel peace Prize in Physics! Was All really as A genius as he is made out to be?? What say you??

1923 Hitler's attempts to take over the German Government are stopped,19 Nazis are killed! Adolf is imprisoned! Why wasn't this the end of his power hungry demented ways?? How did Hitler get out of this & still take over German leadership!? Websites, articles, videos, welcome!? Anyone??

Also today in 1938, an event involving the beginning of the end for Jews occurs in Germany!? I believe NYG touched on it!?? Any other takes on it??

1953 Cambodia becomes independent from France! Is this tied into the situation in Vietnam!? Then ultimately pulling the US in later?? What say you about Revolution in this area!? Comments??

1989, the opening of the Berlin Wall! What a great day for freedom loving Germans & Europeans!? The Soviet Union is beginning to falter!? What say you about how this event was achieved, & is Putin trying to revive the Soviet Union by taking the Ukraine!? Anyone??

BTW please continue with past discussions, & here are some new dates, & events!??

11-10-1871, Henry Stanley found Dr. David Livingston, & said this famous quote, "Dr. Livingston, I presume"?? Why did the Brits. make such a big deal over this?? Anyone?

1775 the US Marine Corps was founded to help fight four the American Patriot cause! Any websites or posts on the Marines??

On 11-11, of course the end of WWI, but what else??

1493 Columbus rediscovers the Island of St. Martins, another theft of a Native American Isle!?

1813 the Brits. win the Battle of Chrysler's Farm, why fight over a farm?? Anyone?

1878 the Cherry Valley Raid by the Iroquois, attacks Americans in NY state! Why were these Natives, pro British? What say you??

1831 Nate Turner has his famous slave rebellion! How did the South react?? Comments on its aftermath?? Anyone?

1880 Bush Ranger Ned Kelly was hanged in Oz! Why? Anyone?? Was Australia quite lawless??

11-12 in history,

1930 the British Empire is on the verge of losing India! Why? Anyone??

1954 Ellis Island closes! Where will immigrants go now??

& finally, 11-13 in world events, check these out??

1850 Robert L. Stevenson was born, this great author chose to live for a while in the South Pacific! Paradise anyone?? What say you??

1916 the Battle of the Somme ends! Comments on this horrific battle, anyone??

2001 the Northern Alliance captures Kabul in Afghanistan! What ever happened to the N. Alliance? How did this lead to 9-11? Comments?

11-14, tens of thousands in an army attacking another army which out numbers them, but has no weapons!? I'm talking about deer hunting. The open gun season is 11-15, I believe the season is longer in Canada? What say you about deer hunting? A sport or inhumane?? Anyone??

Peace,, & sieze the day!
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2022 12:54:02 PM
Quote:
11-14, tens of thousands in an army attacking another army which out numbers them, but has no weapons!? I'm talking about deer hunting. The open gun season is 11-15, I believe the season is longer in Canada? What say you about deer hunting? A sport or inhumane?? Anyone??


In Ontario, the length of the season depends upon the zone in which you live in the province. These zones are called WMU's (Wildlife Management Units)

The length is also impacted by the choice of weapon. Bow hunting season differs in length from rifle hunting season. Ontario is a big province and so the length of time in a day in which a hunter may hunt may be altered by how many hours of daylight the WMU experiences. (you can hunt 1/2 hour before sunrise and 1/2 hour after sunset)

So how do I feel about hunting? I am not anti-hunting so long as the hunter is using the animal to augment food supply. My opinion was changed when I moved to the Haliburton area of Ontario which is one of the poorer areas of Ontario.

Not that I was fully aware of that fact as a retiree living in cottage country but I learned that some people were hard up against it. For some people up there, the killing of a deer or moose provides fresh meat that they would not otherwise be able to buy. I had been somewhat of an anti-hunter to that point. Still it was a little unnerving to see a deer strung up on my neighbour's property with the blood draining into a barrel. That guy seemed to bag one every year and he seemed to be able to get a tag every year too.

I draw the line at trophy hunting, though. You can attend restaurants in the Haliburton area and some moose or deer head will be watching you eat. It just bothers me.

And I am not sure that pre-season baiting is fair either. There were people in Haliburton who fed the deer before the hunting season and then had an easy kill when the animals showed up for their regular feeding session to which they had become accustomed. I knew a couple of guys who would feed ducks and geese on a quiet lake and then pop-pop-pop on the first day of geese hunting season. I'm not a hunter but those tactics bother me.

I'm pretty sure that feeding deer is OK but the use of "natural attractants" like urine or gland oils is prohibited.

When my wife and I decided to go for a November walk on a popular hiking trail we were surprised to see a warning sign at the trailhead. It said that hunting is part of the local culture and we should all take measures to assure our own safety. Hunting season runs from Nov. 7 to 20 for rifle hunting in that WMU and hunters are permitted to hold one tag only.

There were also signs posted to tell people that ATV's or four-wheelers if you like were not allowed on the trails and yet the small parking lot was packed with trucks and small trailers to transport ATV's. They were using the hiking trails to get to wherever they wanted to hunt. We could hear the sound of gunfire and as we were not wearing bright orange anything, we opted to forgo our walk.

Discretion is the better part of valour, right?

There is a farmer near Barrie, Ontario which is about one hour from Toronto and he is in the news every so often when one of his cows is killed during hunting season. He takes an orange spray paint can and writes COW on both sides of the animals. When stuff like this happens, people question whether some people should have a rifle in their hands.

And on a more serious note, a couple of years ago a woman was on a country road, going for her morning walk. She didn't come home and was killed by a stray bullet. This happened despite regulations that prohibit the discharge of a firearm across a road. it is illegal to shoot from, down or across a public road while hunting, no exceptions. (Ontario Hunting Regs). The regulations didn't help that poor woman at all.

That's my two cents worth. And I know how popular hunting is in most parts of Canada.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2022 7:56:42 PM
Like George, I draw limits concerning hunting, pretty much along the same lines George mentions. Unlike George, I know next to nothing about the “season”, rules, controls and such which govern hunting in BC.

I have friends who hunted in their youth, some using bow and arrow but others using anything that would lead to a kill. More recently, hunters are becoming less prevalent in my area of the province, though I heard that two young sons of a friend were off to get a deer last week. Knowing them, I feel assured that the kill will be neither boasted of nor wasted.

Trophy hunting is, IMHO, an unjustifiable arrogance, or perhaps a throwback to more primitive times or beliefs. This applies, IMHO, whether we’re talking about African shoots or northern Canadian/Yukon shoots or the kind of blooding which makes such a mockery of the British “Hunt”. So too, IMHO, is the increasing meaninglessness of “blooding a son” (read “child”, my woke friends) as a rite of “manhood”.

Oops! Mini-rant!

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/15/2022 6:34:46 AM
On November 15, 1864, Union General William T. Sherman begins his expedition across Georgia by torching the industrial section of Atlanta and pulling away from his supply lines. For the next six weeks, Sherman’s army destroyed most of the state before capturing the Confederate seaport of Savannah, Georgia.

Sherman captured Atlanta in early September 1864 after a long summer campaign. He recognized his vulnerability in the city, however, as his supply lines stretched all the way from Nashville, Tennessee. Confederate raiders such as Nathan Bedford Forrest threatened to cut his lines, and Sherman had to commit thousands of troops to protect the railroads and rivers that carried provisions for his massive army. Sherman split his army, keeping 60,000 men and sending the rest back to Nashville with General George Thomas to deal with the remnants of Confederate General John Bell Hood’s Army of Tennessee, the force Sherman had defeated to take Atlanta.



After hearing that President Abraham Lincoln had won re-election on November 8, Sherman ordered 2,500 light wagons loaded with supplies. Doctors checked each soldier for illness or injuries, and those who were deemed unfit were sent to Nashville. Sherman wrote to his general in chief, Ulysses S. Grant, that if he could march through Georgia it would be “proof positive that the North can prevail.” He told Grant that he would not send couriers back, but to “trust the Richmond papers to keep you well advised.” Sherman loaded the surplus supplies on trains and shipped them back to Nashville. On November 15, the army began to move, burning the industrial section of Atlanta before leaving. One witness reported “immense and raging fires lighting up whole heavens… huge waves of fire roll up into the sky; presently the skeleton of great warehouses stand out in relief against sheets of roaring, blazing, furious flames.” Sherman’s famous destruction of Georgia had begun.


NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/15/2022 6:38:42 AM
Heinrich Himmler makes public an order that Romani people (often referred to as Gypsies) are to be put on “the same level as Jews and placed in concentration camps.”

Himmler was determined to prosecute Nazism racial policies, which dictated the elimination from Germany and German-controlled territories all races deemed “inferior,” as well as “asocial” types, such as hardcore criminals. Roma fell into both categories according to the thinking of Nazi ideologues and had been executed in droves both in Poland and the Soviet Union. The order of November 15 was merely a more comprehensive program, as it included the deportation to Auschwitz of Roma already in labor camps.

That Himmler would promulgate such a program should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with his resume. As head of the Waffen-Schutzstaffel (“Armed Black Shirts”), the SS, the military arm of the Nazi Party, and assistant chief of the Gestapo (the secret police), Himmler was able over time to consolidate control over all police forces of the Reich. This power grab would prove highly effective in carrying out the Fuhrer’s Final Solution. It was Himmler who organized the creation of death camps throughout Eastern Europe and the creation of a pool of enslaved laborers.
==================================================================================================================================================

In addition to the Poles and the Jews, the Gypsies were systematically removed from existing in Europe.

This is all very well documented.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/15/2022 8:50:42 AM
Quote:
Like George, I draw limits concerning hunting, pretty much along the same lines George mentions. Unlike George, I know next to nothing about the “season”, rules, controls and such which govern hunting in BC.


I have friends who hunted in their youth, some using bow and arrow but others using anything that would lead to a kill. More recently, hunters are becoming less prevalent in my area of the province, though I heard that two young sons of a friend were off to get a deer last week. Knowing them, I feel assured that the kill will be neither boasted of nor wasted.


Trophy hunting is, IMHO, an unjustifiable arrogance, or perhaps a throwback to more primitive times or beliefs. This applies, IMHO, whether we’re talking about African shoots or northern Canadian/Yukon shoots or the kind of blooding which makes such a mockery of the British “Hunt”. So too, IMHO, is the increasing meaninglessness of “blooding a son” (read “child”, my woke friends) as a rite of “manhood”.


Oops! Mini-rant!


Cheers,
Brian





Hi Brian, & George,

I used to hunt a couple of decades ago, but my family doesn't like venison so I stopped!? Last week I was returning from a Northern Michigan Vacation, when I noticed a large fenced in area full of deer, It seems this land owner was selling to hunters for a large fee, the services of his deer stocked land to hunters! It would be like shooting fish in a barrel. It made me sick, what kind of so called sportsman could do such a thing?? I agree surplus deer need to be kept in line or there will be a lot of car-deer collisions! Plus it's good for poor people to supplement their food sources. Also if done fairly it can be a good outdoor experience!?

But this!?????
What say you?
Regards,
MD


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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/15/2022 9:14:18 AM
Some recent topics for discussions, anyone??

11-12 in history,

1930 the British Empire is on the verge of losing India! Why? Anyone??

1954 Ellis Island closes! Where will immigrants go now??

& finally, 11-13 in world events, check these out??

1850 Robert L. Stevenson was born, this great author chose to live for a while in the South Pacific! Paradise anyone?? What say you??

1916 the Battle of the Somme ends! Comments on this horrific battle, anyone??

2001 the Northern Alliance captures Kabul in Afghanistan! What ever happened to the N. Alliance? How did this lead to 9-11? Comments?

11-14, tens of thousands in an army attacking another army which out numbers them, but has no weapons!? I'm talking about deer hunting. The open gun season is 11-15, I believe the season is longer in Canada? What say you about deer hunting? A sport or inhumane?? Anyone?? Good replys, George, & Brian! Thanks.

11-15, 1864, Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman begins his famous March to the Sea! It is said, He uses total war to hasten its end. What say you is it true, & what about this type of tactic in warfare?? Is all fair in love & war? Anyone?

1891, the Desert Fox, German General Erwin Rommel, is born. Was he one of Germany's greatest commanders in WWII?? Comments anyone?

1988 Yassar Arafat declares statehood for Palestine! How could he succeed against powerful Israel? What say you??

Any more topics, past or present? Please post!?

Peace,, & sieze the day!
MD


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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/15/2022 1:22:18 PM
d
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NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/16/2022 6:19:23 AM
Hessian Lieutenant General Wilhelm von Knyphausen and a force of 3,000 Hessian mercenaries and 5,000 Redcoats lay siege to Fort Washington at the northern end and highest point of Manhattan Island.

Throughout the morning, Knyphausen met stiff resistance from the Patriot riflemen inside the fort, but by afternoon, the Patriots were overwhelmed, and the garrison commander, Colonel Robert Magaw, surrendered. Nearly 3,000 Patriots were taken prisoner, and valuable ammunition and supplies were lost to the Hessians. The prisoners faced a particularly grim fate: Many later died from deprivation and disease aboard British prison ships anchored in New York Harbor.

​Among the 53 dead and 96 wounded Patriots were John and Margaret Corbin of Virginia. When John died in action, his wife Margaret took over his cannon, cleaning, loading and firing the gun until she too was severely wounded. The first woman known to have fought for the Continental Army, Margaret survived, but lost the use of her left arm.

Two weeks earlier, one of Magaw’s officers, William Demont, had deserted the Fifth Pennsylvania Battalion and given British intelligence agents information about the Patriot defense of New York, including details about the location and defense of Fort Washington. Demont was the first traitor to the Patriot cause, and his treason contributed significantly to Knyphausen’s victory.

Fort Washington stood at the current location of Bennett Park in the Washington Heights neighborhood of New York City, near the George Washington Bridge, at the corner of Fort Washington Avenue and 183rd Street. Fort Washington Park and Fort Washington Point lay beneath the site along the Hudson River.​
================================================== ================================================== ==============================================

A site lost to the expansion of NYC, it is still nice to visit. Perhaps you can view it on a trip to The Cloisters.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/16/2022 4:05:09 PM
11-13 in world events, check these out?? Comments please!?

1850 Robert L. Stevenson was born, this great author chose to live for a while in the South Pacific! Paradise anyone?? What say you??

1916 the Battle of the Somme ends! Comments on this horrific battle, anyone??

2001 the Northern Alliance captures Kabul in Afghanistan! What ever happened to the N. Alliance? How did this lead to 9-11? Comments?

11-14, tens of thousands in an army attacking another army which out numbers them, but has no weapons!? I'm talking about deer hunting. The open gun season is 11-15, I believe the season is longer in Canada? What say you about deer hunting? A sport or inhumane?? Anyone?? Good replys, George, & Brian! Thanks.

11-15, 1864, Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman begins his famous March to the Sea! It is said, He uses total war to hasten its end. What say you is it true, & what about this type of tactic in warfare?? Is all fair in love & war? Anyone?

1891, the Desert Fox, German General Erwin Rommel, is born. Was he one of Germany's greatest commanders in WWII?? Comments anyone?

1988 Yassar Arafat declares statehood for Palestine! How could he succeed against powerful Israel? What say you??

11-16 in history, just some of what happened!? Any new topics? Anyone??

42 bce. Tiberius was born to become the 2nd Emporer of Rome!? Who was the most successful Emporer of Rome!? Comments?

1272 Henry the VIII dies at 65 years of age! Weddings a side was he a good monarch? & is 65 an old age back then? What was the life expectancy? What say you??

1855 David Livingstone sees Lake Victoria! Was this the source of the Nile?? Comments anyone?

1973 the Alaskan pipeline is approved of by Pres. Nixon! How much on the nations oil comes from here? Is it still going strong to help our fuel shortage?? What say you??

Any more topics, past or present?
Regards,
MD

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Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
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This day in World History! Continued
11/16/2022 8:04:26 PM
MD, you ask the following: “1272 Henry the VIII dies at 65 years of age! Weddings a side was he a good monarch? & is 65 an old age back then? What was the life expectancy? What say you?

Oops! Wrong king! The 1272 Henry was Henry the Third, and he did indeed live a long life. I would argue that once a person cleared the ravishes of childhood diseases (which claimed at a guess better than one in 10 infants), life expectancy was dependent to some extent on social standing. A peasant’s life was grim and monotonous as well as physically hard, but merchant-class and landed class folks, let alone nobles and royals, could expect a full life-span, with obvious issues such as disease, wounds, and a total lack of medical knowledge factored in.

Henry III only had one wife, Eleanor of Provence, who bore him 5 children and survived his death by some 20 years. Her birth date is unknown, but thought to be about 1223; she was thought to have been 13 at the time of her marriage. She died in 1291, which means she was in her late 60s.

As to Henry as king, I would say he was not a good king overall. He spent extravagantly on wars at which he was unsuccessful; he ceded territory in France, which weakened his power; he favoured his (and his consort’s) french connections over English links. He left England, I have always assumed, less powerful than when he took the throne in 1216. But by his consort Eleanor he furthered the power of the House of Plantagenet (and therefore England) by siring five children. The Plantagenets were a rowdy, unruly bunch at best, but their family would control England from the time his son took the throne (1272) until Henry Tudor defeated Richard III in 1485 (?), and took the throne as Henry VII.

Cheers
Brian G

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George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
11/16/2022 8:31:20 PM
Quote:
973 the Alaskan pipeline is approved of by Pres. Nixon! How much on the nations oil comes from here? Is it still going strong to help our fuel shortage?? What say you??


Apparently Alaskan oil provides 25% of US production. US production is 11.3 million barrels per day of crude. So Alaska provides 2.8 million b/d of that.

But the US still needs foreign oil and Canada exports 3.8 million barrels per day of crude oil to the US. Canada is by far the largest foreign supplier of crude to the US, providing over 51% of US oil imports. And Canada could provide more if it just had pipeline capacity to ship it.

The bigger question is how do we reduce this dependence on oil?

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 5:34:27 AM
On November 17, 1777, Congress submits the Articles of Confederation to the states for ratification.

The Articles had been signed by Congress two days earlier, after 16 months of debate. Bickering over land claims between Virginia and Marylanddelayed final ratification for almost four more years. Maryland became the last state to approve the Articles on March 1, 1781, affirming them as the outline of the official government of the United States. The nation was guided by the document until the implementation of the current U.S. Constitution in 1789.

The critical distinction between the Articles of Confederation and the U.S. Constitution–the primacy of the states under the Articles–is best understood by comparing the following lines.

The Articles of Confederation begin:

“To all to whom these Present shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States…”

By contrast, the Constitution begins:

“We the People of the United States…do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

The predominance of the states under the Articles of Confederation is made even more explicit by the claims of Article II:

“Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.”

Less than five years after the ratification of the Articles of Confederation, enough leading Americans decided that the system was inadequate to the task of governance that they peacefully overthrew their second government in just over 20 years. The difference between a collection of sovereign states forming a confederation and a federal government created by a sovereign people lay at the heart of the debate as the new American people decided what form their government would take.

Between 1776 and 1787, Americans went from living under a sovereign king, to living in sovereign states, to becoming a sovereign people. That transformation defined the American Revolution.

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 7:19:27 AM
Quote:
On November 17, 1777, Congress submits the Articles of Confederation to the states for ratification.

The Articles had been signed by Congress two days earlier, after 16 months of debate. Bickering over land claims between Virginia and Marylanddelayed final ratification for almost four more years. Maryland became the last state to approve the Articles on March 1, 1781, affirming them as the outline of the official government of the United States. The nation was guided by the document until the implementation of the current U.S. Constitution in 1789.

The critical distinction between the Articles of Confederation and the U.S. Constitution–the primacy of the states under the Articles–is best understood by comparing the following lines.

The Articles of Confederation begin:

“To all to whom these Present shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States…”

By contrast, the Constitution begins:

“We the People of the United States…do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

The predominance of the states under the Articles of Confederation is made even more explicit by the claims of Article II:

“Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.”

Less than five years after the ratification of the Articles of Confederation, enough leading Americans decided that the system was inadequate to the task of governance that they peacefully overthrew their second government in just over 20 years. The difference between a collection of sovereign states forming a confederation and a federal government created by a sovereign people lay at the heart of the debate as the new American people decided what form their government would take.

Between 1776 and 1787, Americans went from living under a sovereign king, to living in sovereign states, to becoming a sovereign people. That transformation defined the American Revolution.



What exactly would you like to do with this cut and paste effort, NYG? The producer of the History Channel, A and E Television, is partly owned by Disney and does not exist to provide meaningful or academic assessments of historical events. It does provide brief outlines like this one with, what seems to me, a primary goal to flag wave and to appeal to the patriotism of Americans. You do have an international audience here so perhaps you could flesh out this topic a little, in your own words.

So how many former colonists actually had a say in the acceptance of these articles?
Why was it necessary to form a bicameral congress when the constitution was developed?
Why did an institution like the Senate find acceptance when it violates the principle of rep. by pop. that was apparently so important to the people? By that definition, it is an undemocratic institution.
What is the relationship between these articles and the institution of slavery?

That's off the top of my head.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 9:17:49 AM
Hi Brian,

Thanks, for the correction I mean VIII-III=V, quite a difference history wise!

& George,

51% from Canada, that new pipeline could mean a lot price wise here? Or as you state is controlling greenhouse gases more important??

Thanks, gentlemen,
Cheers,
MD

BTW NYG, I agree with George, when you cut & paste something, you could at least site the source where you got it from!???
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 4:34:21 PM
d
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NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 5:43:25 PM
Guys, it is is just a post on history on a History bulletin board.

NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 5:48:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
On November 17, 1777, Congress submits the Articles of Confederation to the states for ratification.

The Articles had been signed by Congress two days earlier, after 16 months of debate. Bickering over land claims between Virginia and Marylanddelayed final ratification for almost four more years. Maryland became the last state to approve the Articles on March 1, 1781, affirming them as the outline of the official government of the United States. The nation was guided by the document until the implementation of the current U.S. Constitution in 1789.

The critical distinction between the Articles of Confederation and the U.S. Constitution–the primacy of the states under the Articles–is best understood by comparing the following lines.

The Articles of Confederation begin:

“To all to whom these Present shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States…”

By contrast, the Constitution begins:

“We the People of the United States…do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

The predominance of the states under the Articles of Confederation is made even more explicit by the claims of Article II:

“Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.”

Less than five years after the ratification of the Articles of Confederation, enough leading Americans decided that the system was inadequate to the task of governance that they peacefully overthrew their second government in just over 20 years. The difference between a collection of sovereign states forming a confederation and a federal government created by a sovereign people lay at the heart of the debate as the new American people decided what form their government would take.

Between 1776 and 1787, Americans went from living under a sovereign king, to living in sovereign states, to becoming a sovereign people. That transformation defined the American Revolution.



What exactly would you like to do with this cut and paste effort, NYG? The producer of the History Channel, A and E Television, is partly owned by Disney and does not exist to provide meaningful or academic assessments of historical events. It does provide brief outlines like this one with, what seems to me, a primary goal to flag wave and to appeal to the patriotism of Americans. You do have an international audience here so perhaps you could flesh out this topic a little, in your own words.

So how many former colonists actually had a say in the acceptance of these articles?
Why was it necessary to form a bicameral congress when the constitution was developed?
Why did an institution like the Senate find acceptance when it violates the principle of rep. by pop. that was apparently so important to the people? By that definition, it is an undemocratic institution.
What is the relationship between these articles and the institution of slavery?

That's off the top of my head.



After considerable debate and revision, the Second Continental Congress adopted the Articles of Confederation on November 15, 1777.

The bicameral legislature was a Compromise. One part is based on population, the other part is based on the states being equal.

The Senate gives equal representation to all the States, as they each have 2 senators. It is the House that is based on population of the states.

The Articles of Confederation said nothing about slavery.


George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 8:49:56 PM
Quote:
After considerable debate and revision, the Second Continental Congress adopted the Articles of Confederation on November 15, 1777.

The bicameral legislature was a Compromise. One part is based on population, the other part is based on the states being equal.

The Senate gives equal representation to all the States, as they each have 2 senators. It is the House that is based on population of the states.

The Articles of Confederation said nothing about slavery.


Yes, I mentioned that the Senate was not based upon representation by population. That makes it undemocratic and gives states with much smaller populations too much influence that may run counter to the will of the people. I was curious as I believe that the Articles of Confederation only mentioned a unicameral Congress. Which states objected to that arrangement?

in 1787 this initial constitution, the Articles of Confederation, was reworked. Why?

I do know that the 1787 Congress also introduced the 3/5 compromise which was an acknowledgment of the institution of slavery, was it not?



NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 9:05:14 PM
To the contrary, the Senate makes all the states equal, and balances the House who is based on population.

The Articles did not have the power of taxation.could not regulate trade, or conduct foreign [policy.

The 3/5th rule written by the South was to protect slavery, The Compromise with he North was to accept the rejection of slavery in the Northwest Territories

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
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This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 10:36:16 PM
Quote:
To the contrary, the Senate makes all the states equal, and balances the House who is based on population.


Yes it does and to some that is a design flaw. It is not a representative body and the US Supreme Court has affirmed the principle of "one person, one vote" and that all legislatures should reflect that principle; except for the Senate of course.

One wonders whether the Founders ever anticipated that the Senate would see small states hold up or force the modification of legislation that the population of the larger states wanted.

Some did not approve of the compromise that provided the small states with so much power.

Quote:
Every idea of proportion and every rule of fair representation conspire to condemn a principle, which gives to Rhode Island an equal weight in the scale of power with Massachusetts, or Connecticut, or New York; and to Delaware an equal voice in the national deliberations with Pennsylvania, or Virginia, or North Carolina. Its operation contradicts the fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail.
. Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 22

Has an amendment to transform the Senate into a more representative body ever been considered?
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2022 10:36:57 PM
double
NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/18/2022 4:56:00 AM
On November 18, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln boards a train for Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, to deliver a short speech the following day at the dedication of a cemetery of soldiers killed during the battle there on July 1 to July 3, 1863. The address Lincoln gave in Gettysburg became one of the most famous speeches in American history.

Lincoln had given much thought to what he wanted to say at Gettysburg, but nearly missed his chance to say it. Shortly before the trip, Lincoln’s son, Tad, became ill with a fever. The president and his wife Mary Todd Lincoln were no strangers to juvenile illness: They had already lost two sons to disease. Prone to fits of hysteria, Mary Lincoln panicked when her husband prepared to leave. However, Lincoln felt the opportunity to speak at Gettysburg and present his defense of the war was too important to miss, so he boarded a train and headed to Pennsylvania.

Despite his son’s illness, Lincoln was in good spirits during the journey. He was accompanied by an entourage that included Secretary of State William Seward, Postmaster General Montgomery Blair, Interior Secretary John Usher, Lincoln’s personal secretaries John Hay and John Nicolay, several members of the diplomat corps, some foreign visitors, a Marine band, and a military escort.
​================================================= ================================================== ===========================================

Recent scholarship compares Lincoln and his provisions for Peace with the Versailles Treaty, which set the reasons for World War II.
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
11/18/2022 5:03:16 AM
If you study the Constitutional Convention, the bicameral legislature was a compromise between the more populous states and the less populous states. And initially, Senators were elected by the state legislatures,..a remnant of States Rights.


The U.S. Supreme Court declared that equality of voting—one person, one vote—means that "the weight and worth of the citizens' votes as nearly as is practicable must be the same", and ruled that states must also draw federal congressional districts containing roughly equal represented populations. It has nothing to do with the Senate.

The Senate is already representative with all the states being equal.




NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/18/2022 5:11:37 AM
On November 18, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln boards a train for Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, to deliver a short speech the following day at the dedication of a cemetery of soldiers killed during the battle there on July 1 to July 3, 1863. The address Lincoln gave in Gettysburg became one of the most famous speeches in American history.

Lincoln had given much thought to what he wanted to say at Gettysburg, but nearly missed his chance to say it. Shortly before the trip, Lincoln’s son, Tad, became ill with a fever. The president and his wife Mary Todd Lincoln were no strangers to juvenile illness: They had already lost two sons to disease. Prone to fits of hysteria, Mary Lincoln panicked when her husband prepared to leave. However, Lincoln felt the opportunity to speak at Gettysburg and present his defense of the war was too important to miss, so he boarded a train and headed to Pennsylvania.

Despite his son’s illness, Lincoln was in good spirits during the journey. He was accompanied by an entourage that included Secretary of State William Seward, Postmaster General Montgomery Blair, Interior Secretary John Usher, Lincoln’s personal secretaries John Hay and John Nicolay, several members of the diplomat corps, some foreign visitors, a Marine band, and a military escort.




When Lincoln arrived in Gettysburg, he was handed a telegram that lifted his spirits: Tad was feeling much better. Lincoln enjoyed an evening dinner and a serenade by the Fifth New York Artillery Band before he retired to finalize his famous Gettysburg Address.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
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This day in World History! Continued
11/18/2022 7:09:23 AM
Quote:
If you study the Constitutional Convention, the bicameral legislature was a compromise between the more populous states and the less populous states. And initially, Senators were elected by the state legislatures,..a remnant of States Rights.


The U.S. Supreme Court declared that equality of voting—one person, one vote—means that "the weight and worth of the citizens' votes as nearly as is practicable must be the same", and ruled that states must also draw federal congressional districts containing roughly equal represented populations. It has nothing to do with the Senate.

The Senate is already representative with all the states being equal.




Indeed and from what I can see, the declaration of each state as equal when it comes to passing legislation is problematic. Something like 44 million people are residing in 22 of the less populated states. So those 44 senate votes represent about 13% of the people in the country. That is far too much voting power vested in the smallest of states considering population only. And I haven't even addressed the fact that most of those unpopulated states represent conservative votes in the country. Correct? Tyranny of the minority. Is that better or worse than tyranny of the majority? I would say worse.

It is just curious to me that the US and perhaps Australia are the only two countries with bicameral legislatures that have allowed the upper house to have as much power or more than the more representative lower house. It always surprises me when I hear Mitch McConnell announce that he won't present legislation passed in the other house to the Senate for debate. How does the upper house retain that kind of power? As I said, surprising that a piece of legislation would be allowed to die at committee level if the majority party on that committee just decides not to release it.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/18/2022 8:52:51 AM
George states,

Indeed and from what I can see, the declaration of each state as equal when it comes to passing legislation is problematic. Something like 44 million people are residing in 22 of the less populated states. So those 44 senate votes represent about 13% of the people in the country. That is far too much voting power vested in the smallest of states considering population only. And I haven't even addressed the fact that most of those unpopulated states represent conservative votes in the country. Correct? Tyranny of the minority. Is that better or worse than tyranny of the majority? I would say worse.

Interesting figures! Good points! Now however some how the houses reversed??

Checking 11-17 in history, hey MHO lets have some new posts from new topics! Anyone??

1558 Elizabeth I becomes Queen of England, How was she influential in the expansion of the British Empire!? What say you??

1800 1st session of Congress, did the Legislative Branch get more done back then?? Why does it always seem they the houses are at odds with each other? Comments, anyone??

1869 the Suez Canal opens, Did the British have control of it back then?? Anyone?

1871 the NRA comes to the forefront, what's their influence today?? Comments??

1887 Gen. Monty of GB was born! How did he win in N.Africa? Was he Britain's best General?? Anyone?

& 11-18 in history we see,

1863 Lincoln heads to Gettysburg as pointed out by NYG, to make his famous address speech! I visited the spot near the National Cemetery where he gave his speech! It felt erie, & moving! Anyone else get that feeling at Gettysburg!?? Something great happened there?? Comments?

1903 the US acquired a 10 mile wide strip to finish the Panama Canal! How did they manage this? Was the situation similar to the British, & the Suez Canal!? Can anyone compare the two??

1905 A leader from Denmark becomes the King of Norway!? How did this happen? Anyone?

1923, Alan Shepard becomes the 1st NASA astronaut in space was born! 1st dogs, the chimps, finally man?? Comments??

1978 the Rev. Jim Jones poison s his followers in Guyana! Another example of Religious extremists beliefs!? What say you? How could this happen? Sick??

Lots to discuss here!?
Regards, & carry on!
MD

2015 New Zealand Rugby star dies from a heart attack! Can someone post that pregame display that the New Zealand national team does?? Do you think it's intimidating?? What's the history behind it?? What say you??
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morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/18/2022 11:26:42 AM
Dave, yes...Jim Jones was sick...as were his followers...but I wouldn`t say it was "Another example of religious extremists beliefs?"

Jones used religion to recruit and then indoctrinate gullible people into his own hellish, Marxist Socialist utopian fantasies. It was as much a cautionary tale about communistic totalitarianism as any. Jones was a fraud, masking his sickness in religion. Real religious people don`t pick out females in the flock to become sex slaves, or remove family from the equation (scientology) or lead people to impoverished sameness...and then make the decision to die for all...it was a cult. But it was built around Marxist claptrap.

Small wonder that it`s origins were in Oakland and San Francisco!

Respects. Morris
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George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
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This day in World History! Continued
11/18/2022 12:28:48 PM
Quote:
1869 the Suez Canal opens, Did the British have control of it back then?? Anyone?


No, the construction was by France and the Khedive of Egypt. Khedive is a term used by the Ottoman Empire. In 1875, the Egyptians could not afford to be involved and offered its shares in the canal. The British government bought them. Later Britain would invade and occupy Egypt, concerned that nationalists would take control. Britain and France were owner/operators of the canal.

And when Egypt seized control of the canal and the British, French and Israelis invaded, the US was not pleased. The nationalization of the dam was precipitated by the withdrawal of financial support by the US and the UK for the construction of the Aswan Dam. The US figured that the Soviets would move into Egypt to fill the void if the UK and France continued to occupy the zone.


Quote:
1903 the US acquired a 10 mile wide strip to finish the Panama Canal! How did they manage this? Was the situation similar to the British, & the Suez Canal!? Can anyone compare the two??


Both canals were dominated by foreign imperial powers at the expense of the nations in which the canals existed. In Suez, Britain and France maintained control of the canal.

In Panama the US decided that it would build a canal through the Panama area of the country of Colombia. The US thought it had a deal with Columbia but the Columbian legislature vetoed the deal, believing that they would have to surrender sovereignty to the US if they signed.

So the US took advantage of the unrest in the Panamanian area of Colombia and assisted the rebels in fomenting a revolution. USN vessels prevented the landing of Colombian troops dispatched by their government to put down the revolution.

The US quickly recognized Panama as an independent nation and the Panama Canal treaty was signed effectively giving the US control of a wide strip of the new country that effectively separated the north part of the country from the south. The US even controlled the transit of Panamanian citizens from one part of the country to the other with passage through the zone. The PMZ became a US enclave transplanted in another country.

So whether Suez or Panama, we see that imperial power will be applied to achieve the ends desired.

Cheers,

George
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