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NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 6:15:18 AM
IIRC, it was Eisenhower who first got us involved in Viet Nam. And IIRC, it was the Republican Party which went along with all decision made about Viet Nam. And IIRC, the Democratic Party wanted to end the war...it was Nixon who continued it.

You are in favor of interstate highways too, aren't you?
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 8:27:18 AM
Quote:
Not all veterans were treated fairly. The 4,300 First Nations Canadians who served during the war had been seen as equals by their comrades-in-arms overseas. But when these veterans came back to the nation they had defended with their lives, they returned to being wards of the state without even the right to vote.

Canada paid for 35000 to go to college.

The US paid for 2.2 million GIs to attend college.



Interesting pivot. I have been offering evidence that the US was not the only allied country to offer extensive benefits to returning soldiers and you quickly flashed your fingers over the keyboard to find something negative to say about Canada.

Now I know that you did not write the first sentence on your own. From what little writing you actually do on this forum, I can see that these sentences are not yours. So you have plagiarized once again.

So for those who wish to know the source of NYG's post this time, here it is. The part about First Nations is buried well down the article

[Read More]

Now I don't dispute the fact that FN were treated differently. It's a story of discrimination often forced by the terms of the Indian Act that described the relationship between the Government and the FN's. First Nations veterans were eligible for everything listed under the Veterans Charter. But that didn't work out well for an FN who wanted to buy farm land. There were conditions as the government wanted to make sure that the land was available for people with farm experience. Most FN on reserve had no farming experience.

Now NY shall we address the issue of black veterans in the US who could not get GI Bill loans and were restricted as to where they may have wished to buy a house.

If a man wanted to go to university, he had to first indicate that he was eligible; that is, had he attained a high school matriculation. Most FN's and hell, a huge number of non-FN veterans did not have a high school education. My father was one. He left school at grade 8 so that he could pick up odd jobs to help the family survive during the depression.

A couple of facts about Canada

1. The population of the country at the end of the war was just over 11 million. Of that number, 1.1 million were in service and most of those were volunteers until near the end of the war.

2. The cut and paste that you provided only indicates how many veterans were in the universities by 1947. The actual number of vets that took advantage of the education subsidy in Canada was 54,000.

It is interesting that your data indicates that 2.2 million US veterans went to college. Several sources cite 2.2 million but indicate that that includes those that went to college or university. Now in Canada, there is a major difference between the two.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Were college and university aspirants asked to prove whether they were qualified to attend? ie. Did they have to have a high school diploma?

2. When the claim is that 2.2 million went to college does that include non degree granting institutions like junior colleges or community colleges.

It is impressive that all of these people enrolled in post secondary programmes but I wonder whether all were qualified to attend or were entrance requirements overlooked. Or perhaps "hurry up" high school matriculation courses were set up before the veteran could enter university. That's not a criticism. I believe that Canada did that simply because many veterans had not had the opportunity to finish high school.

Here is an interesting article about the GED programme in the US that allowed US veterans to receive some sort of high school equivalency that would then make them eligible for university.

[Read More]
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 8:31:36 AM
I think it's impressive too!! And those who took advantage were part of the Post-war economic recovery in the uS.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 9:10:51 AM
Just moving the last undiscussed topics to the new page!! Anything here to discuss?? Yet?

Quote:
11-20 in history, the following,

1815 the Quadruple Alliance is formed did it stop Napoleon?? How?

1820 the US whaling ship Essex, sinks?? So was Moby Dick, Melville's novel based on facts?? Anyone??

1925 Robert Kennedy was born sadly assassination cut what might have been a future President, short! Comments?

1992 huge fire in Windsor Castle destroys 115+ rooms! How did this happen? & How was it restored? Anyone with a good website on it??

1998 American Tobacco companies are to pay out over 200 billion dollars!? Was this just??

11-21, events,

1806 Napoleon tries to blockade Great Britain! The Continental System!? Say what?? How effective could this possibly be?? Anyone??

2002 NATO expands with 7 more x Soviet countries! Why didn't Ukraine join? Are they members now?? Will they survive Russian invasion? What say you??

11-22's happenings! Old & New, comments & posts welcome!

1718, the pirate Black Beard was killed off the Coast of North Carolina! Anyone have the story??

1963 sadly in Dallas, Tx. President John F Kennedy is killed! was his security lacking? What say you?? Also it seems people remember where they were & it's effects on those around them? I was in Elementary school, & A lot of kids were crying! Anyone else wish to share??

1990 Margaret Thatcher resigns after her popularity diminished! She was the leader during the victorious Falklands War, so how did this happen? Anyone??

2005 Angela Merkel becomes Germany's 1st women Chancellor! How did she do? was she a good leader? Comments?

Regards,
MD


11-23 & today in World History! New comments or carry on with old ones!!??

1765 People in the Colonies are reputting the Stamp Act!? Were they in the right??

1863 the Union wins the Battle of Chattanooga! How important was this especially to transportation??. Anyone? How did they win??

Carry on!? Forget anything for tomorrows feast? Better check?? ☺
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 9:17:35 AM
Quote:
You did not stop the Vietnam War. You lost it.

Trevor


As succinct, to the point the point and short brief answer...and as right as The Gettysburg Address in brevity!

Well done Trevor...I wish I could have been so eloquent and brief.

Eisenhower had military advisors in Vietnam. Kennedy expanded on it greatly...and Johnson exploded it into a mess for us NY. Don`t you dare rewrite history to blame it all on Republicans. And while some were anti-war, the Democrats in Chicago, for the most part, didn`t object much to the protestors being beaten in Daily`s streets. And what party was the corrupt Daily from? What party used his corrupt machine to steal elections? Give me a break.
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 9:21:36 AM
Nixxon, Reagan and Trump certainly leveled the playing field as far as corruption is concerned.

Pesky thing those pesky facts.

let's not revise history.
Steve Clements
Toronto ON Canada
Posts: 910
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 9:48:49 AM

Quote:
2. The cut and paste that you provided only indicates how many veterans were in the universities by 1947. The actual number of vets that took advantage of the education subsidy in Canada was 54,000.


Hi George,

My dad and my uncle were two of the vets that received a University education as a "reward" for having served.

My dad grew up in a small mining town in B.C., finished high school, and was working in the mine when he enlisted. He served a tour of duty as a bomb aimer, in a Lancaster, in Bomber Group Six.

My uncle was a pilot in Ferry Command. He never talked about his war experiences (one of his landings didn't go too well....and he ended up in a military hospital - Sunnybrook - for almost a year), but I gather he spent time in both the Bahamas and North Africa (Morocco??).

The two of them met while in University after the war (both did a B Comm at McGill....my dad ended up as an accountant, which he hated ...) and then managed to marry sisters.

s.c.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 9:51:47 AM
Come on guys no politics!!

Funny however how it's always the other sides fault!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 9:53:59 AM
Quote:
I think it's impressive too!! And those who took advantage were part of the Post-war economic recovery in the uS.



That's all you got out of my post? No answers to my questions. No explanation of the admissions requirements demanded of vets. Just more flag waving.

My point was that unlike WW1, it seems that all of the allies realized that changes to the social structure were needed and that returning veterans needed more support than they received after WWI.

And many countries ran excellent programmes that led to more and better social programmes.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 9:57:32 AM
Yes Dave. Funny how the same cast of characters from one side always want to take their swipes at conservatives...then expect us not to call them out on it.
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 10:12:26 AM
Quote:

Quote:
2. The cut and paste that you provided only indicates how many veterans were in the universities by 1947. The actual number of vets that took advantage of the education subsidy in Canada was 54,000.


Hi George,

My dad and my uncle were two of the vets that received a University education as a "reward" for having served.

My dad grew up in a small mining town in B.C., finished high school, and was working in the mine when he enlisted. He served a tour of duty as a bomb aimer, in a Lancaster, in Bomber Group Six.

My uncle was a pilot in Ferry Command. He never talked about his war experiences (one of his landings didn't go too well....and he ended up in a military hospital - Sunnybrook - for almost a year), but I gather he spent time in both the Bahamas and North Africa (Morocco??).

The two of them met while in University after the war (both did a B Comm at McGill....my dad ended up as an accountant, which he hated ...) and then managed to marry sisters.

s.c.



Great family story, Steve. I'm glad that they took advantage of what was available. Apparently Univ. of Toronto took in the greatest number of vets in the education programme. Lecture halls were packed for a few years.

My Dad was in a bad state emotionally when he got back. One brother had been killed in Italy and the other shot up badly at Dieppe. It messed him up. When they were being demobilized, Canadian veterans were given a lump sum calculated by assessing the number of days served and the number in combat situations. On average, most vets received about $500.00 initially plus $100 to buy civilian clothes.

Dad landed in Halifax and took the train to Toronto. He went to the Armouries at the Exhibition Grounds and expected to be released. He said that he gave the officer the "big boss" salute but the officer said that my Dad was short on a couple of pieces of kit like a small bag that had been nicked on board ship. So they told him that he had to stay in the army for 30 more days to work off what he owed. He told me that that was the sort of "chicken shit" stuff that happened in the army once away from the combat areas. He said that that officer had probably never left the country.

Then he wound up in a military hospital in Toronto too but I don't think that it was Sunnybrook. Lingering affects of dysentery. That's where he met my Mom who came to visit him in the hospital with my Dad's cousin who was also the best friend of my mother.

My father told me that he didn't take advantage of the educational opportunities or the Veterans' Land Act. I asked him what he did with the $500. He just said, "Ah, I just pissed it away". It took him about four years to get serious about his life and he did well after that. I guess my point is that not all of the veterans were in the right frame of mind to use the Veterans Charter just at the end of the war.

Makes me wonder what he could have done with his life if he had been in the right frame of mind to use the Charter and like I said, he did well once he joined the police force.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 10:26:44 AM
George and Steve,

The stories you’ve told about your dads have a resonance for me.

My dad left school at fifteen, went straight into the family meat market business, volunteered in 1940 at the age of nineteen, served in anti aircraft batteries in the blitz, was deployed in North Africa and Italy from 1941 to 1945, starting as a gunner and ending up in the infantry.

He returned to Blighty and went to Liverpool to take what was called “ Forces’ Matriculation “ which was supposed to remedy defects in his pre war schooling.

Mum had been in the ATS, and was sent to Bletchley Park, and after the war was dispatched as a French teacher to this place In Liverpool, where she taught Dad.

They married in 1947.

Regards,Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 11:07:11 AM
Thanks for telling us about your family history, Phil. What strikes me is how young so many of them were. It must have been a shock to have been away from the normal developmental phases of life for over five years and then to be plunged right back into the old system to play catch-up.

You mentioned that your Dad took, "Forces Matriculation" after the war. My father-in-law joined the RCAF and the only reason that he got in was that he had learned to fly before the war. He used to take whatever money he had left after giving his Mom some and spent it on flying lessons.

But he wasn't an educated man and that was a requirement to enter the "Gentleman's Service". So the government took these guys and sent them to a high school matriculation equivalency programme for a few months. I believe that Central Technical School in Toronto was the place that they sent many of these under educated prospective pilots.

None of these men could become officer pilots but once they had matriculated, they could become sergeant-pilots.

The stories from Steve and you, Phil lead me to believe that this really was an impressive generation of men and women who were asked to go to war.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 2:03:03 PM
George and Steve,

What an ordeal afflicted our parents !

But don’t you ever wonder how they were so reconciled to enduring it, when they reflected on the horrific experience of their fathers in ‘fourteen eighteen “ ?

Maybe it was because of, rather than despite, that earlier war that our dads were prepared to step up to the plate.

They knew the standard of service that was imparted to them, and were determined to do it justice.

As Dave would say, what say you ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 4:19:37 PM
Phil, I think that they went to the second war with eyes wide open. In my country, at the start of WW1, it was all about King and Country and adventure. There was none of that in 1939. There was resignation.
The anecdotal accounts from soldiers asked why they volunteered indicate that they knew there was a problem in Europe and a job had to be done. "We had a job to do" is a common refrain.

They had heard of the horrors of the Great War and still they went. I do wonder, with the knowledge that they had of the first war, why so many were anxious to get involved.

I have a book by Barry Broadfoot titled, The Six War Years, and in that book he recorded the responses of soldiers and citizens to simple questions. When he asked soldiers why they went, he received a number of answers.

1. HItler had to be stopped
2. I needed a pair of boots and so did my brothers, so we all signed up. This one came from a family of farmers who were dirt poor on the prairies.
3. Some were patriotic of course saying, "If Canada needed me, I was going to go"
4. One comment came from a First Nations man and he said, "Our treaty is with the British crown and if they ask for our help, we will give it".

The one thing that never arose in that section of Broadfoot's book was the subject of glory or the potential to gain glory. I think that that had died in 1918.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/23/2022 7:34:31 PM
Quote:
1963 sadly in Dallas, Tx. President John F Kennedy is killed! was his security lacking? What say you?? Also it seems people remember where they were & it's effects on those around them? I was in Elementary school, & A lot of kids were crying! Anyone else wish to share?
Killed. Murdered. Assassinated. Why, to my ears, to those terms make an event so different?

News travelled differently then. I was in my final year at UBC (in Vancouver). I heard my first rumour about JFK as I headed to my Victorian Prose class at 11:30 PST that Friday. I was told it as a joke, because the colleen who told me couldn’t imagine it was real. My class was taught by a prof nicknamed “rigor-mortis” Morrison, a WW2 RCN vet with the driest sense of humour I have ever faced. He was not a good lecturer, relying on written notes used year after year. He started the class this way: “Today, someone has attempted to shoot the American President. Ironically, the subject of this lecture was to have been “Mill’s tyranny of the majority”. And he began reading his notes. And then, mid-sentence, he stopped, saying: “The flag has been lowered; he must be dead. I can’t go on.” And he walked out, leaving us stunned.

My roomies and I had been planning a visit to Victoria to see friends that weekend: party time! We went despite JFK’s death, and joined what became an unofficial wake. People arrive from hundreds of miles away. They came with elegies they had written, songs they had composed; they came with instruments: this was still a time when a gathering meant singing. The gathering went on until early Sunday morning, when as Ross (our host) and made breakfast we watched Jack Ruby shoot Lee Harvey Oswald.

For me, this was “the day the music died!” I don’t say that lightly.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/24/2022 5:25:46 AM
On November 24, 1863, Union troops capture Lookout Mountain southwest of Chattanooga, Tennessee, as they begin to break the Confederate siege of the city. In the “battle above the clouds,” the Yankees scaled the slopes of the mountain on the periphery of the Chattanooga lines.

For nearly two months following the Battle of Chickamauga, the Confederates, commanded by General Braxton Bragg, had pinned the Union army inside Chattanooga. They were not able to surround the city, though, and occupied Lookout Mountain and Missionary Ridge to the south and east of the city instead. In late October, arriving to take command, Union General Ulysses S. Grant immediately began to form an offensive. On October 27, Union troops attacked Brown’s Ferry southwest of Chattanooga and opened the Tennessee River to boats that brought much needed supplies to the besieged Yankees.



On November 23, Grant began to attack the center of the lines around the city. Lookout Mountain lay on the Union’s far right, and the action there commenced on November 24. Yankee General Joseph Hooker commanded this wing, and his men advanced toward the fog-covered peak. Hooker did not plan to attack the entire mountain that day, thinking the granite crags would be difficult to overcome. The fog masked the Union advance, however, and Hooker’s men climbed relatively easily.



The Confederates had overestimated the advantages offered by the mountain, and 1,200 Rebels faced nearly 12,000 attacking Yankees. Artillery proved of little use, as the hill was so steep that the attackers could not even be seen until they appeared near the summit. Bragg did not send reinforcements because the Union attack against the Confederate center was more threatening than the sideshow around Lookout Mountain. The Confederates abandoned the mountain by late afternoon. The next day, Union forces launched a devastating attack against Missionary Ridge and successfully broke the Confederate lines around Chattanooga.
===================================================================================================================================================

Portions of the Lookout Mountain battlefield are preserved by the National Park Service as part of the Chickamauga and Chattanooga National Military Park. Lookout Mountain Battlefield encompasses approximately 3,000 acres of land on the summit and slopes of Lookout Mountain. Point Park's 16 acres provides overlooks, monuments, and cannon positions interpreting the Battle of Lookout Mountain as well as the other Battles for Chattanooga.


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/24/2022 5:32:26 PM
Quote:
Just moving the last undiscussed topics to the new page!! Anything here to discuss?? Yet?

Quote:
11-20 in history, the following,

1815 the Quadruple Alliance is formed did it stop Napoleon?? How?

1820 the US whaling ship Essex, sinks?? So was Moby Dick, Melville's novel based on facts?? Anyone??

1925 Robert Kennedy was born sadly assassination cut what might have been a future President, short! Comments?

1992 huge fire in Windsor Castle destroys 115+ rooms! How did this happen? & How was it restored? Anyone with a good website on it??

1998 American Tobacco companies are to pay out over 200 billion dollars!? Was this just??

11-21, events,

1806 Napoleon tries to blockade Great Britain! The Continental System!? Say what?? How effective could this possibly be?? Anyone??

2002 NATO expands with 7 more x Soviet countries! Why didn't Ukraine join? Are they members now?? Will they survive Russian invasion? What say you??

11-22's happenings! Old & New, comments & posts welcome!

1718, the pirate Black Beard was killed off the Coast of North Carolina! Anyone have the story??

1963 sadly in Dallas, Tx. President John F Kennedy is killed! was his security lacking? What say you?? Also it seems people remember where they were & it's effects on those around them? I was in Elementary school, & A lot of kids were crying! Anyone else wish to share??

1990 Margaret Thatcher resigns after her popularity diminished! She was the leader during the victorious Falklands War, so how did this happen? Anyone??

2005 Angela Merkel becomes Germany's 1st women Chancellor! How did she do? was she a good leader? Comments?

Regards,
MD


11-23 & today in World History! New comments or carry on with old ones!!??

1765 People in the Colonies are reputting the Stamp Act!? Were they in the right??

1863 the Union wins the Battle of Chattanooga! How important was this especially to transportation??. Anyone? How did they win??

Carry on!? Forget anything for tomorrows feast? Better check?? ☺


Lincoln makes the 3rd Thursday of November, the National Holiday of Thanksgiving! Have a happy one!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/25/2022 7:08:02 AM
On November 25, 1783, nearly three months after the Treaty of Paris was signed ending the American Revolution, the last British soldiers withdraw from New York City, the last British military position in the United States. After the last Redcoat departed New York, U.S. General George Washingtonentered the city in triumph to the cheers of New Yorkers. The city had remained in British hands since its capture in September 1776.

Four months after New York was returned to the victorious Patriots, the city was declared to be the capital of the United States. In 1789, it was the site of Washington’s inauguration as the first U.S. president and remained the nation’s capital until 1790, when Philadelphia became the second capital of the United States under the U.S. Constitution.



New Yorkers shaped the history of two new nations. The British evacuated their New York Loyalists to remaining British territories, mainly in Canada. These families had been dispossessed of their land and belongings by the victorious Patriots because of their continued support of the British king and were able to regain some financial independence through lands granted to them by the British in western Quebec (now Ontario) and Nova Scotia. Their arrival in Canada permanently shifted the demographics of what had been French-speaking New France until 1763 into an English-speaking colony, and later nation, with the exception of a French-speaking and culturally French area in eastern Canada that is now Quebec.

In 1784, one year after their arrival, the new Loyalist population spurred the creation of New Brunswick in the previously unpopulated (by Europeans, at least) lands west of the Bay of Fundy in what had been Nova Scotia. In 1785, the Loyalists yet again made their mark on Canadian history when their combined settlements at Parrtown and Carleton of approximately 14,000 people became British North America’s first incorporated city under the name City of Saint John. The division between the Anglophone and Francophone sections was ultimately recognized by creating the English-dominant province of Ontario, west of Quebec, in 1867.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/25/2022 4:54:05 PM
Quote:
On November 25, 1783, nearly three months after the Treaty of Paris was signed ending the American Revolution, the last British soldiers withdraw from New York City, the last British military position in the United States. After the last Redcoat departed New York, U.S. General George Washingtonentered the city in triumph to the cheers of New Yorkers. The city had remained in British hands since its capture in September 1776.

Four months after New York was returned to the victorious Patriots, the city was declared to be the capital of the United States. In 1789, it was the site of Washington’s inauguration as the first U.S. president and remained the nation’s capital until 1790, when Philadelphia became the second capital of the United States under the U.S. Constitution.



New Yorkers shaped the history of two new nations. The British evacuated their New York Loyalists to remaining British territories, mainly in Canada. These families had been dispossessed of their land and belongings by the victorious Patriots because of their continued support of the British king and were able to regain some financial independence through lands granted to them by the British in western Quebec (now Ontario) and Nova Scotia. Their arrival in Canada permanently shifted the demographics of what had been French-speaking New France until 1763 into an English-speaking colony, and later nation, with the exception of a French-speaking and culturally French area in eastern Canada that is now Quebec.

In 1784, one year after their arrival, the new Loyalist population spurred the creation of New Brunswick in the previously unpopulated (by Europeans, at least) lands west of the Bay of Fundy in what had been Nova Scotia. In 1785, the Loyalists yet again made their mark on Canadian history when their combined settlements at Parrtown and Carleton of approximately 14,000 people became British North America’s first incorporated city under the name City of Saint John. The division between the Anglophone and Francophone sections was ultimately recognized by creating the English-dominant province of Ontario, west of Quebec, in 1867.



The Loyalists were not all New Yorkers though many a Loyalist refugee had gone to New York City to escape persecution by the mobs that they feared. Some Loyalists were of solid British stock but also Pennsylvania Dutch, Hugenots, Quakers and freed black Loyalists who had provided service to Britain during the revolution. As the British prepared to leave New York, they compiled a list of black people who had been promised their freedom. The list grew to about 3000 names and all were entered in a document sometimes called, "The Book of Negroes" which is a hand written ledger about 150 pages long. Beside each entry is information about each black person. Despite protests from George Washington, the British stayed true to their word and these 3000 black people, some former slaves sailed away to Nova Scotia. They were promised free land but that was slow in coming. In the end, many left for Sierra Leone.



Of the 50,000 Loyalists gathered in NYC, about 30,000 headed for Nova Scotia. About 7500 made their way to the north shores of Lake Ontario or the St. Lawrence.

Many had served in Loyalist Regiments in the British forces and had been promised land in the remaining British colonies.

The Loyalists tended to like to live in communities that reflected their ethnicity. In Nova Scotia there is a town called Shelburne and many of the Black Loyalists arrived there. Nearly half of the Loyalists decided to settle near the mouth of the Saint John River and they had also indicated that they did not wish to live anywhere near the New Englanders who had migrated to Nova Scotia before the revolution and who were a source of concern for the British. Those New Englanders had called themselves, "neutral Yankees" but the Loyalists want nothing to do with them. And so they went to the west side of the Bay of Fundy. The governor of Nova Scotia was having tough time to supply the newcomers and he and they suggested an administrative change. And so the British created New Brunswick in 1784.

The separation of the colony of Québec came about partly because British efforts to encourage Anglo immigration to the French speaking colony had failed. The Loyalists were adherents to British Common Law and were not disposed to accepting the French seigneurial system that governed land ownership and transfer in Québec. The British had allowed the French-Canadians to keep the civil code and the seigneurial system. They were subject to British criminal law.

The Loyalists in Québec actually petitioned the British government to do away with the French seigneurial system in favour of freehold land tenure.

The Loyalists who arrived on the North shore of the upper St. Lawrence and Lake Ontario much preferred British Common Law and the concept of freehold land tenure. And so the British divided Québec into Upper (now Ontario) and Lower (now Québec) Canada. Common law prevailed in Upper Canada while civil code and the seigneurial system was maintained in Lower Canada.

Another group of Loyalists that could not be ignored were the First Nations warriors of the Haudenosaunee who had fought with the British. About 2000 of them came north. Most settled near Brantford, Ontario with some heading to the Montréal area. Another group arrived on the Bay of Quinte on Lake Ontario which is close to where I live.

The Loyalists were people who did not believe in mob rule and yet many supported the complaints made against the British by their fellow subjects who would be later called patriots.

Some of them arrived with their slaves. By the 1790's in the Maritimes (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI, there were between 1200 and 2000 black slaves who had arrived with their Loyalist owners.

What the Loyalists gave us were people who were willing to advocate for more progressive and representative government. Their influence was significant.

Of note, the influx of settlers into Upper Canada continued beyond the revolution. But these people were not true Loyalists. They came for the free land that was offered. They are sometimes called, derisively, the "late Loyalists". It was this large group of American settlers that would give the British, Canadians and the real Loyalists cause for concern in the next war, the War of 1812.

The British were concerned that the Late Loyalists would support the invading US forces. That it did not happen to a great extent may be explained by the fact that these former Americans had sworn an oath to the crown and were content to farm on their free land. The American invaders did not endear themselves to the late Loyalists when they began to burn their properties.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
11/26/2022 7:44:24 AM
On November 26, 1941, Adm. Chuichi Nagumo leads the Japanese First Air Fleet, an aircraft carrier strike force, toward Pearl Harbor, with the understanding that should “negotiations with the United States reach a successful conclusion, the task force will immediately put about and return to the homeland.”

Negotiations had been ongoing for months. Japan wanted an end to U.S. economic sanctions. The Americans wanted Japan out of China and Southeast Asia-and to repudiate the Tripartite “Axis” Pact with Germany and Italy as conditions to be met before those sanctions could be lifted. Neither side was budging. President Roosevelt and Secretary of State Cordell Hull were anticipating a Japanese strike as retaliation—they just didn’t know where. The Philippines, Wake Island, Midway—all were possibilities. American intelligence reports had sighted the Japanese fleet movement out from Formosa (Taiwan), apparently headed for Indochina. As a result of this “bad faith” action, President Roosevelt ordered that a conciliatory gesture of resuming monthly oil supplies for Japanese civilian needs canceled. Hull also rejected Tokyo’s “Plan B,” a temporary relaxation of the crisis, and of sanctions, but without any concessions on Japan’s part. Prime Minister Tojo considered this an ultimatum, and more or less gave up on diplomatic channels as the means of resolving the impasse.​

Nagumo had no experience with naval aviation, having never commanded a fleet of aircraft carriers in his life. This role was a reward for a lifetime of faithful service. Nagumo, while a man of action, did not like taking unnecessary risks—which he considered an attack on the American naval base at Pearl Harbor to be. But Chief of Staff Rear Adm. Isoruku Yamamoto thought differently; while also opposing war with the United States, he believed the only hope for a Japanese victory was a swift surprise attack, via carrier warfare, against the U.S. fleet. And as far as the Roosevelt War Department was concerned, if war was inevitable, it desired “that Japan commit the first overt act.”


OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/26/2022 8:27:45 AM
And if neither side makes that act there would be no war.
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
11/26/2022 8:49:10 AM
Quote:
And if neither side makes that act there would be no war.


Well, We know that Japan had gone to War with China in the late 1890s and then went War with Imperial Russia in 1904. Japan entered World War I as an ally.

In the early 1930s, Japan invaded Manchuria and in the late 1930s Japan again went to war with China. The reason for these invasions was economic and also to procure natural resources of which Japan was bereft. Japan lost a series of border clashes with the Soviet Union along the Soviet-Manchurian border and this made them look South towards the European colonies of SE Asia...Great Britain's Hong Kong, The Dutch East Indies and the French IndoChina, and its natural resources. At that time, France and The Netherlands had been over-run by Germany and Great Britain was standing alone against German aggression.

Only the US Pacific Fleet could prevent and stop Japanese aggression. And once the US commenced an oil embargo, plans were set in motion to destroy the US Fleet at Pearl Harbor. Evidently on the final exam for all graduating Japanese Naval Cadets was the question..How would you attack Pearl Harbor?

The sneak attack sunk 4 battleships( only 3 permanently), damaged 4 battleships, destroyed about 200+ aircraft and killed 2400 Americans ( including an airman from my hometown), the attack did not destroy the Fleet as the repair sites, oil storage areas and and ammunition sites survived the attack. Also, the 3 air craft carriers were on assignment...the Enterprise was returning after delivering fighter aircraft to Wake Island, the Lexington was taking fighter aircraft to Midway Island and the Saratoga was just entering San Diego after being in dry dock in Bremerton Washington..

At that time, December 7th 1941, the battleship was the Queen of the Navy , according to the principles of Mahan. That changed on December 10th 1941 when the HMS Repulse and the HMS Prince of Wales were sunk by aerial attack by Japan. This British ships had no air cover.



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/26/2022 8:59:01 PM
Quote:


Of the 50,000 Loyalists gathered in NYC, about 30,000 headed for Nova Scotia. About 7500 made their way to the north shores of Lake Ontario or the St. Lawrence.

Many had served in Loyalist Regiments in the British forces and had been promised land in the remaining British colonies.

Cheers,

George





George,

From a percentage or a numbers basis how many of the Loyalists took up arms against the Patriots??

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
11/27/2022 3:52:48 AM
After 44 months in prison, former government official Alger Hiss is released and proclaims once again that he is innocent of the charges that led to his incarceration.

One of the most famous figures of the Cold War period, Hiss was convicted in 1950 of perjury for lying to a federal grand jury. Specifically, Hiss was judged to have lied about his complicity in passing secret government documents to Whittaker Chambers, who thereupon passed the papers along to agents of the Soviet Union.

Upon his release, Hiss immediately declared that he wished to “reassert my complete innocence of the charges that were brought against me by Whittaker Chambers.” He claimed that his conviction was the result of the “fear and hysteria of the times,” and stated that he was going to “resume my efforts to dispel the deception that has been foisted on the American people.” He was confident that such efforts would “vindicate my name.”

Some observers remained skeptical of Hiss’s protestations. Senator Karl Mundt felt that further investigation of the matter would probably be a waste of time, unless Hiss decided “to come clean and tell the whole story.” Chambers issued a brief statement in which he declared that the “saddest single factor about the Hiss case is that nobody can change the facts as they are known…They are there forever. That is the inherent tragedy of this case.”

The controversy over the facts in the Hiss case is also here forever. It remains a highly charged issue. His defenders argue that Hiss was a victim of the Red Scare that swept through the U.S. during the 1940s and 1950s. Others are equally adamant in maintaining his guilt, claiming that documents released from Soviet archives strongly support the case that Hiss was a spy for the Soviet Union.​
================================================== ================================================== ==============================================

Touring the Maryland countryside, we once went past the "Pumpkin Patch" where allegedly, information was placed.

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
11/27/2022 7:49:05 AM
Quote:
George,

From a percentage or a numbers basis how many of the Loyalists took up arms against the Patriots??

Regards,
MD


Hard to say for sure. The population of the 13 colonies was 2.5 million people in 1776.

American sources generally peg the number of Loyalists between 15-20%. That's about 500,000. We used to say that the population was divided at 1/3 Loyalist, 1/3 confirmed rebel, 1/3 fence sitter. That may be incorrect though the figure of 20% comes from Americans sources I believe.

Some British sources claim that 30% were Loyalists.

I am pretty confident that about 20,000 served in British militia regiments like Butler's Rangers, Black Pioneers or the Georgia Light Dragoons.

There were several thousand First Nations that also fought on the British side but I don't think that they would be counted in the Loyalist numbers.

I do wonder how many people just wanted no part of the conflict and were content to say whatever they had to to the local Committees of Public Safety in order to avoid harassment. For some, it would be necessary to declare for the rebels or the Torys if only to survive in the community.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/27/2022 10:03:57 AM
Note, the last undiscussed topics? Last chance to comment on??

1815 the Quadruple Alliance is formed did it stop Napoleon?? How?

1820 the US whaling ship Essex, sinks?? So was Moby Dick, Melville's novel based on facts?? Anyone??

1992 huge fire in Windsor Castle destroys 115+ rooms! How did this happen? & How was it restored? Anyone with a good website on it??

1998 American Tobacco companies are to pay out over 200 billion dollars!? Was this just??

1806 Napoleon tries to blockade Great Britain! The Continental System!? Say what?? How effective could this possibly be?? Anyone??

2002 NATO expands with 7 more x Soviet countries! Why didn't Ukraine join? Are they members now?? Will they survive Russian invasion? What say you??

1990 Margaret Thatcher resigns after her popularity diminished! She was the leader during the victorious Falklands War, so how did this happen? Anyone??

New end of November topics! Comments or posts??

11-24,

1832,
The state of South Carolina lead by John Calhoun, adapts a policy of Nullification! The came close to succeeding from the Union even back then!? Why was it that South Carolina couldn't get out of the Union fast enouph!?? What say you??

1859 Charles Darwin published the origin of the species! Why do many people still today don't believe it?? Anyone?

2001 the Country of Turkey finally grant married women equality in a marriage! Why do Muslims keep women down!?? Comments??

11-25

1863, Grant's forces win the battle of Missionary Ridge, the Rebs had the high ground yet they lost! How did they manage that?? Anyone??

1942 the US is already working on the Atomic bomb, why did it take so long to develop?? Comments??

2016 Fidel Castro dies. Is Cuba less Communist today?? What say you?? If the US had taken over would Cuba be a wealthy tropical paradise like Florida?? What say you??

& 11-26,

1894 Czar Nicholas marries Alexandria, the last royalty of Russia! What happened to them? Anyone??

1917 the NHL is formed, tomorrow the Red Wings right on the heels of the highly regarded Toronto Maple Leafs play each other? Where did the so called lowly Wings come from to rise so high in the Atlantic Division standings?? Comments??

Today in 1941 the US Secretary of State Cordell Hull, tells Japan to vacate China, & Korea! Did this action lead to Pearl Harbor? Explain??

Lots to discuss here!? Pitch in MHO??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
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This day in World History! Continued
11/27/2022 11:56:10 AM
Quote:
Where did the so called lowly Wings come from to rise so high in the Atlantic Division standings?? Comments??

Regards,
MD


Good day MD:

It's early in the season and there is a long road ahead for the Redwings but, their goaltender Ville Husso has shown he can be a top goalie based on his consistency with save percentage and goals against average; .919 & 2.74 over 57 games. If the Redwings can improve their defense, offensively the talent is there but it was a good sign when new head coach Derek Lalonde stated that the defense needed improvement.

Steve Yzerman was a fantastic hockey player (one of my all time personal favorites),all hockey fans know this but; until Scotty Bowman showed up, pulled Steve to the side and asked, 'do you want to be the leading scorer every year or win championships', it was only then that Detroit started to make progress as contenders for the Cup. Once Steve bought into playing defense as the foundation of the Redwing teams in the 1990-2000's, it was only then that the Redwings won championships.

Giving up 312 goals against while scoring only 230 during the 2021-22 season clearly shows that Detroit must improve its defense, first and foremost.
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/27/2022 9:06:39 PM
Hi DT,

Thanks for responding to my Detroit Red Wing boast, it's just that the Wings who had been in the Stanley Cup playoffs for 25 straight years have fallen on hard times until Stevey Y. took over as vice president & GM! The Captain was also a favorite of mine! I know it takes a long & hard road to win the cup, but I think we are on the right track! The Leafs will be a good test, right George!?

Regards,
MD

BTW welcome back Dennis Bater, glad to see it!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
11/28/2022 6:59:07 AM
On November 28, 1943, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt joins British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin at a conference in Iran to discuss strategies for winning World War II and potential terms for a peace settlement.

Tehran, Iran, was chosen as the site for the talks largely due to its strategic importance to the Allies. The United States was able to get supplies to the Soviets through Iran when Germany controlled most of Europe, the Balkans and North Africa, and German U-boat attacks on Allied shipping in the Atlantic Ocean and North Sea made transport treacherous. When first lady Eleanor and the couple’s daughter Anna expressed a desire to accompany Roosevelt to Iran, he flatly refused, saying there would be no women allowed at the preliminary conference between himself and Churchill in Cairo or at the Tehran meeting. Eleanor and Anna were incensed to find out later that Churchill’s wife and Madame Chiang Kai Shek from China had made the trip.​



Roosevelt was in his third term as president in 1943. According to biographer Doris Kearns Goodwin, instead of feeling trepidation about the dangers of a secret trip through war zones, Roosevelt was eager to meet again with his friend Churchill. He also expressed excitement at the prospect of meeting Stalin for the first time and relished the challenge of bringing the stern, forbidding Soviet leader into the Pacific war against Japan. The “Big Three,” as the leaders were known, discussed ways to defeat Nazi Germany and agreed upon an invasion of Normandy, codenamed Operation Overlord, which was launched in June 1944. In return for America’s help in defeating Germany on the eastern front, Stalin promised to help the United States win its war against Japan. The meeting was so friendly that Churchill later expressed unease at Roosevelt’s extraordinary effort to charm and accommodate Stalin. Churchill would have preferred an indirect assault on Germany to Overlord, and mistrusted the Soviet leader. For his part, Stalin wanted a territorial buffer between the Soviet Union and Germany, made up of the former Baltic nations, Poland and part of Germany, to be part of any post-war peace settlement.



In a joint declaration issued December 1, Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt recognized “the supreme responsibility resting upon us and all the United Nations to make a peace which will command the goodwill of the overwhelming mass of the peoples of the world and banish the scourge and terror of war for many generations.” After the Tehran meeting, Roosevelt and Churchill traveled back to Cairo, where they discussed who would lead Operation Overlord. After some discussion, they agreed upon General Dwight D. Eisenhower, who in 1953 would become the 34th president of the United States.

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
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This day in World History! Continued
11/28/2022 7:14:16 AM
Quote:
Hi DT,

Thanks for responding to my Detroit Red Wing boast, it's just that the Wings who had been in the Stanley Cup playoffs for 25 straight years have fallen on hard times until Stevey Y. took over as vice president & GM! The Captain was also a favorite of mine! I know it takes a long & hard road to win the cup, but I think we are on the right track! The Leafs will be a good test, right George!?

Regards,
MD

BTW welcome back Dennis Bater, glad to see it!



I'm not sure how much of a test the Leafs will be tonight. They are missing three of their defence men including Morgan Reilly, Jamie Benn and Jake Muzzin. So on D there is a lot of "who is he?" in the lineup. Still they have been winning with the call ups and with the increased playing time given to two of the younger players. But they look really scrambly to me in the back end.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/28/2022 9:40:47 AM
Quote:
On November 28, 1943, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt joins British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin at a conference in Iran to discuss strategies for winning World War II and potential terms for a peace settlement.

Tehran, Iran, was chosen as the site for the talks largely due to its strategic importance to the Allies.


Didn't the big 3, also meet at Yalta?? imagine those 3 countries meeting in Tehran today??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
11/28/2022 11:42:07 AM
Quote:
Quote:
On November 28, 1943, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt joins British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin at a conference in Iran to discuss strategies for winning World War II and potential terms for a peace settlement.

Tehran, Iran, was chosen as the site for the talks largely due to its strategic importance to the Allies.


Didn't the big 3, also meet at Yalta?? imagine those 3 countries meeting in Tehran today??


yes, FDR, Churchill and Stalin met again at Yalta. By that time FDR was suffering from the effects of cardiovascular disease, and was in his 4th term as president.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
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This day in World History! Continued
11/28/2022 1:11:40 PM
Quote:
Quote:
On November 28, 1943, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt joins British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin at a conference in Iran to discuss strategies for winning World War II and potential terms for a peace settlement.

Tehran, Iran, was chosen as the site for the talks largely due to its strategic importance to the Allies.


Didn't the big 3, also meet at Yalta?? imagine those 3 countries meeting in Tehran today??


Hindsight is 20/20 of course but I think that the two western leaders were anxious to secure Stalin's commitment to the Pacific War and at Yalta, FDR and WSC agreed that any states bordering the USSR should be friendly to the USSR. They insisted upon elections but we know what happened as puppet regimes were set up in all the eastern countries that formed the buffer between the USSR and western Europe.

Poland was sacrificed despite the fact that Polish soldiers and airmen were fighting against the Germans in Europe.

At Tehran Churchill, in his memoirs, indicated that he sensed that he was being marginalized while Stalin and FDR were becoming closer. Churchill felt that Stalin was preventing him from having input in discussions between FDR and Stalin. WSC also felt that FDR was a little naive at the Tehran conference and perhaps giving Stalin too much credit for being amenable to compromise.

Apparently FDR had his accommodations in the USSR embassy while WSC stayed elsewhere so FDR was under the eyes and ears of the Soviet spies.

Was FDR being played by Stalin? Was Churchill? Churchill did say that he requested a meeting with Stalin to complain that he felt that Stalin was preventing dialogue between WSC and FDR. I do not know whether FDR preferred to have one on one negotiations with Stalin with Churchill out of the picture. If anyone has information on that, please weigh in.

Stalin wanted a firm commitment from the other two on when the second front would begin. He got that. He also agreed to declare war on Japan once the European war was over and he did that. He agreed to begin an offensive in the east in support of the allied landing in France.

But he was given control of the south part of Sakhilin and the Kurile Islands and access to ice free ports in China. I don't know whether the Nationalist Chinese were asked about that.

And I think that he demanded that Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia had to be considered part of the USSR. FDR and WSC insisted upon referenda in each of those states but Stalin said that there would be no international monitoring of the process. It seems that the USSR and now Russia used this tactic very well to indicate that annexation occurs with full approval of the population of the invaded country.

Stalin also wanted support for the partisans fighting in Yugoslavia.

As I recall he wasn't too keen on support for Churchill's desire to continue the offensive in Italy and would have preferred to see Rome liberated and then the allied troops committed to a landing in southern France. I don't know whether FDR considered that attack on the south of France to be a priority but that is what happened.

Quote:
Stalin: In my opinion, it would be better to make Operation Overlord the basis of all operations in 1944. If a landing were made in Southern France at the same time as that operation, both groups of forces could join in France. That is why it would be well to have two operations: Operation Overlord and the landing in Southern France as a supporting operation. At the same time the operation in the Rome area would be a diversionary operation. In carrying out the landing in France from the North and the South there could be a build-up of forces when these forces are joined. France is Germany's weak spot. As for Turkey, I doubt that Turkey will enter the war. She will not join the war no matter what pressure we exert. That is my opinion.
. Stalin, Tehran 1943


I am pretty sure that they discussed the ways to divide and manage Poland at Tehran and then firmed that up at Yalta so I doubt that Poland had support to attain independence even in 1943 though Churchill did ask for it.

It seems to me that Stalin saw his objectives met at the Tehran Conference and that many of his demands were firmed up at Yalta. However, FDR did manage to get Stalin to agree to the organization of a new United Nations with the large powers in prominent positions. Did the allies give too much to Stalin and did they have any other options?

Cheers,

George

EDIT: The following are transcripts of documentation from the Tehran and Yalta meetings. They were quite interesting though I note that they were released by the Soviets in 1969 and are English translations of the Russian. Does anyone know whether the translations have been accepted as accurate by British and American authorities. In other words, are they trustworthy documents?

[Read More]
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
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This day in World History! Continued
11/28/2022 8:34:52 PM
I suspect anything that the Soviets published.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 6:20:39 AM

I'm not sure how much of a test the Leafs will be tonight. They are missing three of their defence men including Morgan Reilly, Jamie Benn and Jake Muzzin. So on D there is a lot of "who is he?" in the lineup. Still they have been winning with the call ups and with the increased playing time given to two of the younger players. But they look really scrambly to me in the back end.

Cheers,

George

Hi George, & DT,

The Leafs still have enough fire power, with a 4-2 win over the Wings! 🤔

That's what I get for bragging! Remind me to be humble when it comes to my sports teams!?

In my place!
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 7:44:45 AM
Despite strong Arab opposition, the United Nations votes for the partition of Palestine and the creation of an independent Jewish state.



The modern conflict between Jews and Arabs in Palestine dates back to the 1910s, when both groups laid claim to the British-controlled territory. The Jews were Zionists, recent emigrants from Europe and Russia who came to the ancient homeland of the Jews to establish a Jewish national state. The native Palestinian Arabs sought to stem Jewish immigration and set up a secular Palestinian state.

Beginning in 1929, Arabs and Jews openly fought in Palestine, and Britain attempted to limit Jewish immigration as a means of appeasing the Arabs. As a result of the Holocaust in Europe, many Jews illegally entered Palestine during World War II. Radical Jewish groups employed guerilla tactics against British forces in Palestine, which they thought had betrayed the Zionist cause. At the end of World War II, in 1945, the United States took up the Zionist cause. Britain, unable to find a practical solution, referred the problem to the United Nations, which on November 29, 1947, voted to partition Palestine.

The Jews were to possess more than half of Palestine, though they made up less than half of Palestine’s population. The Palestinian Arabs, aided by volunteers from other countries, fought the Zionist forces, but the Jews secured full control of their U.N.-allocated share of Palestine and also some Arab territory. On May 14, 1948, Britain withdrew with the expiration of its mandate, and the State of Israel was proclaimed by Jewish Agency Chairman David Ben-Gurion. The next day, forces from Egypt, Transjordan (now known as Jordan), Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded.

The Israelis managed to fight off the Arabs and then seize key territories, such as Galilee, the Palestinian coast, and a strip of territory connecting the coastal region to the western section of Jerusalem. In 1949, U.N.-brokered cease-fires left the State of Israel in permanent control of those conquered areas. The departure of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs from Israel during the war left the country with a Jewish majority.​


NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 7:49:59 AM
Quote:

I'm not sure how much of a test the Leafs will be tonight. They are missing three of their defence men including Morgan Reilly, Jamie Benn and Jake Muzzin. So on D there is a lot of "who is he?" in the lineup. Still they have been winning with the call ups and with the increased playing time given to two of the younger players. But they look really scrambly to me in the back end.

Cheers,

George


Hi George, & DT,

The Leafs still have enough fire power, with a 4-2 win over the Wings! 🤔

That's what I get for bragging! Remind me to be humble when it comes to my sports teams!?

In my place!
MD


I attended the boxing matches the other weekend at the Turning Stone Casino, and saw something I had never seen before.

In the third fight of the evening, a middle-weight bout, in the 3rd round, a hockey game broke out!!
NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 8:23:44 AM
George, Stalin was probably incessantly putting forward the Curzon Line as Poland's Eastern border.

At the close of World War I in 1919, the Allies drafted the Treaty of Versailles. It established the framework for the resurgence of the Polish State after 123 years of partition. Its territory comprised of areas formerly belonging to the Russian Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Germany. The question of Poland's eastern border was not addressed, and left to be decided upon subsequently.

In 1920, Lord Curzon of Kedleston, the British Foreign Secretary made a proposal to resolve the problem, by establishing not a boundary but rather an armistice line by which Poland would occupy the territory west of the line, and the Russians to the east of it. This was rejected by both Poland and Russia. The Bolsheviks had invaded Poland in May 1920 intending to spread their socialist revolution throughout Europe. Despite British attempts to call for a ceasefire, the Soviets continued to fight believing that they were going to win. But to their surprise, they were defeated, and with that humiliation also lost a significant part of their territory which was ceded to Poland in the peace Treaty of Riga in 1921. Poland ended up with about 135,000 square kilometers of territory.

Stalin was one of those humiliated as he walked back to Russia with his tail between his legs.

After the Nazi and Soviet invasions of Poland in September 1939, the Soviets occupied all the territory east of the Curzon line, and they never returned it.

I am one who doesn't believe that for gave away Poland. As there were not any American soldiers fighting on the Eastern front, it wasn't his to give away. Now Great Britain had made plans to invade Soviet Russia. Operation Unthinkable was the name given to two related possible future war plans by the British Chiefs of Staff against the Soviet Union in 1945. The plans were never approved or implemented. The creation of the plans was ordered by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in May 1945 and developed by the British Armed Forces' Joint Planning Staff in May 1945 at the end of World War II in Europe. One plan assumed a surprise attack on the Soviet forces stationed in Germany to "impose the will of the Western Allies" on the Soviets. "The will" was qualified as "a square deal for Poland",[2] which probably meant enforcing the recently-signed Yalta Agreement. The planners decided that without massive American help, Britain would probably fail.

Plus the American home-front was calling for the boys to come home in 1945, at the end ot he war in Europe. FDR would have been impeached if the Us continued the war against the Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

In the end, it looks like the institutions that Stalin believed in failed. There is no longer a Soviet union, as it has been broken up. Poland is free, and the Curzon Line now is the border between Poland and Ukraine, Lithuania and Belarus.

The institution that FDR left us, the United Nations, still exists.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 8:58:25 AM
The allies owed more to Poland. Poles had fought valiantly hoping attain independence for their country. In the end, they were sacrificed and it matters little that there were no American soldiers in that part of the war. I don't understand the logic behind that statement.

The Polish Corps in Italy had given outstanding service under General Anders. Early in 1945 the word came down that eastern Polish territory would be ceded to the USSR and Poland would get some German territory as boundaries were redrawn.

The Poles were part of the British 8th Army and so Gen. Anders requested a meeting with his British superiors and requested that the Poles be withdrawn from the line. He told them that the decision by the Big Three with respect to Poland was an injustice and that he could not longer ask his men to fight and die. The British implored him to reconsider as the Polish Corps was needed to continue British operations. Gen. Anders considered the British plea and agreed that the departure of his Corps would put the 8th Army in a tough spot.

Despite learning that their country would be sacrificed to meet geopolitical goals, the Poles continued to fight.

The Poles fighting in the west also continued to fight to the end. I do not know whether they considered pulling out when they learned of the loss of eastern lands to the USSR. Some Polish units were even involved in occupation duties in Germany.

The deserved better but it seems that a war with the Soviets would be the only way to achieve a better deal for Poland.

Cheers,

George
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