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NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 9:57:28 AM
George, the accusation against FDR is that he gave Poland await the Soviets. How could FDR give it away, when it was never his to begin with??

No one is abusing the reputation the Poles as Allies or formidable servicemen.

Tell me, was Great Britain willing to go to war with the Soviets to ensure a free Poland? Great Britain was exhausted in 1945, and recall that they still had to ration food until 1954.

Because of spies in the British Government, I am sure that Stalin was aware of Operation Unthinkable.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 10:20:46 AM
Quote:
George, the accusation against FDR is that he gave Poland await the Soviets. How could FDR give it away, when it was never his to begin with??

No one is abusing the reputation the Poles as Allies or formidable servicemen.

Tell me, was Great Britain willing to go to war with the Soviets to ensure a free Poland? Great Britain was exhausted in 1945, and recall that they still had to ration food until 1954.

Because of spies in the British Government, I am sure that Stalin was aware of Operation Unthinkable.


Was it the Soviet's land to take? The territorial evolution of Poland occurred with the approval of WSC and FDR and their governments.

As did the partitioning of Germany and the creation of a French protectorate in the German area of the Saar.

I think that Churchill, more so than FDR, realized the threat presented by the USSR. However without the US on board, the thought of turning to face the Soviets even with the addition of German forces prepared to fight was not reasonable. The point is moot however as WSC, the only proponent of an attack on the Soviets would be defeated in the national election in July of 1945.

George


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 10:42:39 AM
Quote:
Note, the last undiscussed topics? Last chance to comment on??

1815 the Quadruple Alliance is formed did it stop Napoleon?? How?

1820 the US whaling ship Essex, sinks?? So was Moby Dick, Melville's novel based on facts?? Anyone??

1992 huge fire in Windsor Castle destroys 115+ rooms! How did this happen? & How was it restored? Anyone with a good website on it??

1998 American Tobacco companies are to pay out over 200 billion dollars!? Was this just??

1806 Napoleon tries to blockade Great Britain! The Continental System!? Say what?? How effective could this possibly be?? Anyone??

2002 NATO expands with 7 more x Soviet countries! Why didn't Ukraine join? Are they members now?? Will they survive Russian invasion? What say you??

1990 Margaret Thatcher resigns after her popularity diminished! She was the leader during the victorious Falklands War, so how did this happen? Anyone??

New end of November topics! Comments or posts??

11-24,

1832,
The state of South Carolina lead by John Calhoun, adapts a policy of Nullification! The came close to succeeding from the Union even back then!? Why was it that South Carolina couldn't get out of the Union fast enouph!?? What say you??

1859 Charles Darwin published the origin of the species! Why do many people still today don't believe it?? Anyone?

2001 the Country of Turkey finally grant married women equality in a marriage! Why do Muslims keep women down!?? Comments??

11-25

1863, Grant's forces win the battle of Missionary Ridge, the Rebs had the high ground yet they lost! How did they manage that?? Anyone??

1942 the US is already working on the Atomic bomb, why did it take so long to develop?? Comments??

2016 Fidel Castro dies. Is Cuba less Communist today?? What say you?? If the US had taken over would Cuba be a wealthy tropical paradise like Florida?? What say you??

& 11-26,

1894 Czar Nicholas marries Alexandria, the last royalty of Russia! What happened to them? Anyone??

1917 the NHL is formed, you have to live hockey!!

In 1941 the US Secretary of State Cordell Hull, tells Japan to vacate China, & Korea! Did this action lead to Pearl Harbor? Explain??

11-29 today in world history!

1981 Actress Natalie Wood drowns off Catalina Island, California! At 1st it was ruled an accidential death, but after 2 investigations later now its ruled a suspicious death! & maybe her husband actor Robert Wagner was responsible? What say you? Any detectives out there? BTW I have been to that island, its really cool!

Lots to discuss here!? Pitch in MHO??
Regards,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 12:30:45 PM
Quote:
2016 Fidel Castro dies. Is Cuba less Communist today?? What say you?? If the US had taken over would Cuba be a wealthy tropical paradise like Florida?? What say you??


The last time that US business interests (and those from other countries) dominated Cuba was not pleasant for the Cuban people. Wealth was generated for the foreign business class and wealthy Cuban owners.

Fulgencio Batista was a tyrant and he was favoured and supported by the US. Why? US businesses including a criminal element had free reign in Cuba so long as Batista was in charge.

Fidel Castro led the revolution and forced Batista to flee the island in 1959. but Castro never received support from the US even when he went to the US to seek it. And so he nationalized industries, created a communist government and played nice with the USSR.

The Cubans want control of the their country and yes they are concerned about their civil liberties. It is remarkable that Cuba is still ticking even though the US sanctions applied against the Cubans are crippling the economy. These sanctions have been ongoing for 60 years and I fail to see the purpose behind them. Cuba is no threat to the US or this hemisphere.

George
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 12:37:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
George, the accusation against FDR is that he gave Poland await the Soviets. How could FDR give it away, when it was never his to begin with??

No one is abusing the reputation the Poles as Allies or formidable servicemen.

Tell me, was Great Britain willing to go to war with the Soviets to ensure a free Poland? Great Britain was exhausted in 1945, and recall that they still had to ration food until 1954.

Because of spies in the British Government, I am sure that Stalin was aware of Operation Unthinkable.


Was it the Soviet's land to take? The territorial evolution of Poland occurred with the approval of WSC and FDR and their governments.

As did the partitioning of Germany and the creation of a French protectorate in the German area of the Saar.

I think that Churchill, more so than FDR, realized the threat presented by the USSR. However without the US on board, the thought of turning to face the Soviets even with the addition of German forces prepared to fight was not reasonable. The point is moot however as WSC, the only proponent of an attack on the Soviets would be defeated in the national election in July of 1945.

George




The Soviets claimed that land, winning it by force of arms, in defeating the Germans. They claimed it as always being part of the Russian state. FDR was not going to fight over lines drawn in the sand, which is what he thought of the Curzon Line. The Soviet line of reasoning was that Curzon who came up with the idea, was British, and therefore, the Soviets could not be expected to settle for anything less.


I agree with you that Churchill was more realistic to the threat of the Soviet Union. FDR was a sick man ( why anyone would want to be President for 3 terms, let alone 4 terms is beyond me. The job of President killed FDR).
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
11/29/2022 6:23:19 PM
On November 30, 1864, the once proud Confederate Army of Tennesseesuffers a devastating defeat after its commander, General John Bell Hood, orders a frontal assault on strong Union positions around Franklin, Tennessee. The loss cost Hood six of his finest generals and nearly a third of his force.

Hood assumed command in late July 1864 while the Confederates were pinned inside Atlanta by the armies of Union General William T. Sherman. Hood made a series of desperate attacks against Sherman but finally relinquished the city in early September. No longer able to wage an offensive against the massive Yankee force, Hood retreated into Alabama to regroup. In early November, he moved north into Tennessee to draw Sherman out of the Deep South. By now, Sherman had enough troops to split his army. He dispatched General George Thomas to the Nashville area to deal with Hood’s threat while he took the rest of the force on his March to the Sea, during which his men destroyed most of central Georgia.

Hood approached Franklin, just south of Nashville, on November 29. Thomas waited in Nashville, while another Union force under John Schofield was moving from the south to join Thomas. Schofield was aware of Hood’s position and was attempting to move past the Confederates on his way to rejoining the rest of the Federal army. Hood tried to flank Schofield, but he marched right past Hood’s army and planted his Yankees in existing defenses at Franklin. Furious, Hood blamed his subordinates for failing to block Schofield’s route, and then prepared for a frontal assault on the formidable Union trenches. Hood was handicapped by the fact that one of his three divisions was still marching toward Franklin and much of his artillery had not yet arrived. Under these circumstances, Hood’s decision to attack could seem foolish, but he was perhaps motivated by an attempt to discipline his army and rebuild his men’s lost confidence. On November 30, the Confederates charged into the Union defenses. The Rebel lines moved forward in nearly perfect unison, the last great charge of the war. Parts of the Union’s outer trenches fell to Hood’s men, but a Yankee counterattack spelled disaster for the Confederates. They did not penetrate any further and suffered significant casualties.

The fighting continued until after dark before Schofield resumed his march northward. Of 15,000 Union troops engaged, some 200 were killed and more than 2,000 were wounded. The Confederates had 23,000 men at Franklin; approximately 1,750 died and 5,500 were wounded or captured. The losses among the Confederate leadership were major. Six generals were killed, including Patrick Cleburne, one of the Confederate army’s finest division commanders. Another five were wounded, one more captured, and 60 of Hood’s 100 regimental commanders were killed or wounded. Despite the defeat, Hood continued to move against Thomas. Just two weeks later, Hood hurled the remnants of his army against the Yankees at Nashville with equally disastrous results.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/30/2022 8:54:34 AM
Quote:
Quote:
2016 Fidel Castro dies. Is Cuba less Communist today?? What say you?? If the US had taken over would Cuba be a wealthy tropical paradise like Florida?? What say you??


The last time that US business interests (and those from other countries) dominated Cuba was not pleasant for the Cuban people. Wealth was generated for the foreign business class and wealthy Cuban owners.

George



Hi George,

Regardless of who owns the tourists businesses, they bring money, & jobs to Cuba! It's better than no jobs & no money circulating!??

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/30/2022 9:13:30 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Note, possible topics not yet discussed, A last shot at them, anyone??

1815 the Quadruple Alliance is formed did it stop Napoleon?? How?

1820 the US whaling ship Essex, sinks?? So was Moby Dick, Melville's novel based on facts?? Anyone??

1992 huge fire in Windsor Castle destroys 115+ rooms! How did this happen? & How was it restored? Anyone with a good website on it??

1998 American Tobacco companies are to pay out over 200 billion dollars!? Was this just??

1806 Napoleon tries to blockade Great Britain! The Continental System!? Say what?? How effective could this possibly be?? Anyone??

2002 NATO expands with 7 more x Soviet countries! Why didn't Ukraine join? Are they members now?? Will they survive Russian invasion? What say you??

1990 Margaret Thatcher resigns after her popularity diminished! She was the leader during the victorious Falklands War, so how did this happen? Anyone??

The state of South Carolina lead by John Calhoun, adapts a policy of Nullification! The came close to succeeding from the Union even back then!? Why was it that South Carolina couldn't get out of the Union fast enouph!?? What say you??

1859 Charles Darwin published the origin of the species! Why do many people still today don't believe it?? Anyone?

2001 the Country of Turkey finally grant married women equality in a marriage! Why do Muslims keep women down!?? Comments?

1863, Grant's forces win the battle of Missionary Ridge, the Rebs had the high ground yet they lost! How did they manage that?? Anyone??

1942 the US is already working on the Atomic bomb, why did it take so long to develop?? Comments anyone?

1894 Czar Nicholas marries Alexandria, the last royalty of Russia! What happened to them? Anyone??

In 1941 the US Secretary of State Cordell Hull, tells Japan to vacate China, & Korea! Did this action lead to Pearl Harbor? Explain??

1981 Actress Natalie Wood drowns off Catalina Island, California! At 1st it was ruled an accidential death, but after 2 investigations later now its ruled a suspicious death! & maybe her husband actor Robert Wagner was responsible? What say you? Any detectives out there? BTW I have been to that island, its really cool!

Lots to discuss here!?
Regards,
MD


New historical events for comments?

11-27,

1895, the Nobel Prizes for peace, literature, & most recognized categories are established! Is this a fair judgement, or a popularity contest?? Anyone?

1942 the French Navy scuttled 73 ships at Toulon so that the Nazis don't get them!? How did Hitler react to this?? What say you??

1942 Jimi Hendrix is born! Was he the best Rock guitarists of all time?? Comments?

1943 Gerald Ford becomes the Vice President of the United States, this fair & decent man, later becomes President! What say you about the x center of the U of M football team!? anyone? M go Blue!!

11-28 in history,

1720 female pirates Mary Read & Anne Bonny are captured but allowed to live because they were pregnant!? What say you about female pirates?? & did your country have pirates??

1757 William Blake English man of Arts was born! What legacy did he leave us with? Anyone?

1960 Mauritania declares independence! They have a star, & Crescent moon on their flag! What does that represent? What other countries have this?? What say you??

11-29's events,

1947 Palestine is partitioned! Why did this occur?? Comments?

1850 Prussia, & Austria sign a agreement! Why are these 2 countries always connected??

1929 Richard Byrd flies over the South Pole, did others fly or land near the poles??

11-30

1718 the King of Sweden killed near Oslo Norway, How, & why did this happen? & It's effects??

1782 The US, & GB sign part of the Treaty of Paris, why was GB so ok with giving in? Anyone?

1874 WSC is born in Oxford! Was he GB's greatest statesman, & leader?? What say you??

1908 the US, & Japan reach an agreement to avoid war even back then! What was it about??

1939 the Russo-Finland War begins, how were the Fins able to hold off big Russia! Anyone??

2018 President George Bush passes away! Anyone have the story of his WWII heroics??

Lots to discuss,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/30/2022 11:46:04 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2016 Fidel Castro dies. Is Cuba less Communist today?? What say you?? If the US had taken over would Cuba be a wealthy tropical paradise like Florida?? What say you??


The last time that US business interests (and those from other countries) dominated Cuba was not pleasant for the Cuban people. Wealth was generated for the foreign business class and wealthy Cuban owners.

George



Hi George,

Regardless of who owns the tourists businesses, they bring money, & jobs to Cuba! It's better than no jobs & no money circulating!??

MD



Dave, that does not describe the conditions in Cuba when US businesses owned and ran the large hotels and clubs. There were clubs and beaches in Cuba that the locals could not use. Black and mixed race people especially were restricted as to where they could go. Havana, especially was a playground for the rich and famous and apparently it was a prosperous city at one time. But there was great inequality in the country with some urban dwellers doing much better than the poor living in the countryside.

There was corruption in government even before Batista but worse under him. The US took possession of Cuba at the end of the Spanish-American war and allowed for the election of a government in 1902. But the US was heavily involved in that government and even passed a law in Congress that gave the US the right to intervene militarily in Cuba any time that they saw fit. The US had told the Cubans that they wouldn't interfere in Cuban affairs if Cuba agreed to the Platt Amendment that allowed them to send the troops in. They also had to agree to allow the US to set up naval bases on the island. Guantanamo Bay is the result.

The US occupied Cuba from 1906-1909. The US would send in the troops on a number of occasions prior to the revolution when it looked as though US business interests could be compromised.

When the Cubans changed government at one point their new President nullified the Platt Agreement and in 1933 the US orchestrated the installation of Batista for his first go round and the new President was out.

Most of the sugar industry was owned by Americans. Workers did not prosper. As well, most of the sugar crop was sold to the US. As time went on, more and more American businesses took control of the economy. And the mafia ran businesses in Cuba as well.

With the US as the primary market for Cuba's one major crop, sugar, the economy was subject to fluctuation when the US altered its quota on the quantity of sugar that it would import from Cuba. Essentially, the Cuban economy had to respond to US economic regulatory measures.

Perhaps if the US dropped its sanctions then Cuba could open up the country to more investment but under their terms this time with guarantees of employment, significant taxes paid to Cuba and living wages paid to workers. Cuba for the Cubans.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/30/2022 7:42:44 PM
Quote:
Havana, especially was a playground for the rich and famous and apparently it was a prosperous city at one time.

Cheers,

George




Hi George

& that certainly was the situation for rich writer Ernest Hemingway, who spent a good deal of time & Money in Cuba!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/1/2022 6:10:42 AM
In Montgomery, Alabama on December 1, 1955, Rosa Parks is jailed for refusing to give up her seat on a public bus to a white man, a violation of the city’s racial segregation laws. The successful Montgomery Bus Boycott, organized by a young Baptist minister named Martin Luther King, Jr., followed Park’s historic act of civil disobedience.

“The mother of the civil rights movement,” as Rosa Parks is known, was born in Tuskegee, Alabama, in 1913. She worked as a seamstress and in 1943 joined the Montgomery chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).

According to a Montgomery city ordinance in 1955, African Americans were required to sit at the back of public buses and were also obligated to give up those seats to white riders if the front of the bus filled up. Parks was in the first row of the Black section when the white driver demanded that she give up her seat to a white man. Parks’ refusal was spontaneous but was not merely brought on by her tired feet, as is the popular legend. In fact, local civil rights leaders had been planning a challenge to Montgomery’s racist bus laws for several months, and Parks had been privy to this discussion.



Learning of Parks’ arrest, the NAACP and other African American activists immediately called for a bus boycott to be held by Black citizens on Monday, December 5. Word was spread by fliers, and activists formed the Montgomery Improvement Association to organize the protest. The first day of the bus boycott was a great success, and that night the 26-year-old Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., told a large crowd gathered at a church, “The great glory of American democracy is the right to protest for right.” King emerged as the leader of the bus boycott and received numerous death threats from opponents of integration. At one point, his home was bombed, but he and his family escaped bodily harm.

The boycott stretched on for more than a year, and participants carpooled or walked miles to work and school when no other means were possible. As African Americans previously constituted 70 percent of the Montgomery bus ridership, the municipal transit system suffered gravely during the boycott. On November 13, 1956, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down Alabama state and Montgomery city bus segregation laws as being in violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. On December 20, King issued the following statement: “The year old protest against city buses is officially called off, and the Negro citizens of Montgomery are urged to return to the buses tomorrow morning on a non-segregated basis.” The boycott ended the next day. Rosa Parks was among the first to ride the newly desegregated buses.

Martin Luther King, Jr., and his nonviolent civil rights movement had won its first great victory. There would be many more to come.

Rosa Parks died on October 24, 2005. Three days later the U.S. Senate passed a resolution to honor Parks by allowing her body to lie in honor in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/1/2022 10:19:06 AM
Welcome to December's history! 12-1,

1814 General Andrew Jackson arrives in New Orleans & prepares as it turns out to rout the British! Why would the battle be so one sided!? Anyone??


1913 Henry Ford comes up with the 1st Assembly line, in Detroit for Ford Motor Co., making Cars affordable!? any websites or comments??

1925 European powers sign a treaty guaranteeing peace in Europe! Yeah sure!? What say you?? Why couldn't this work? Anyone??

1959 12 countries sign the Antarctic Treaty, making it a non military, scientific only continent! Does your country have a base there?? Any one have a map of all the bases of Antarctica, Comments, & websites welcome??

Regards,
MD

& as NYG says the Rosa Parks, back of the bus episode, what say you about that??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/1/2022 3:19:22 PM
Quote:
1814 General Andrew Jackson arrives in New Orleans & prepares as it turns out to rout the British! Why would the battle be so one sided!? Anyone??


Jackson arrived on this day but the final battle took place on Jan. 8.

Gen. Packenham of the British side was a good general but there was something sloppy about the preparations for this battle. And it seemed that the navy and the army were at odds. Packenham didn't pick the site upon which the final battle would be fought. That choice was made by the navy and Vice Admiral Cochrane. When Packenham arrived on Dec. 25, he said that he did not wish to attack from the position selected and upon which some troops had been landed.

The two fought about it and Packenham finally relented and his soldiers would be attacking a breastworks that had been over a month in the making. The British were extremely brave as they attacked but they could not even see their enemy some of whom carried weapons that could hit at greater distance than the British "brown Bess".

But what really destroyed the British was the eight batteries of cannon dotted along the line and another on the other side of the Mississippi that was raking the British left flank. Grape shot and canister cut down the advancing British and also killed Gen. Packenham.

The British had arrived with ladders and fascines to drop in the canals but as the battle ensued, no-one seemed to have been ordered to bring up the ladders and fascine bundles. The Colonel who was supposed to have been in charge of that operation was dismissed from the army once the enquiry was over.


The British did have some success on the west bank of the Mississippi. A unit was sent there to take the American guns situated there. They were successful but the Americans had spiked the guns and so they could not be turned on the American line behind the breastworks. The main battle was pretty much over by that time.
The commander of the British group that had seized the guns could have proceeded down the west bank to New Orleans with little opposition but elected not to do so.

It is worth noting that prior to the big battle of Jan. 8, the British did have a couple of opportunities in December to take New Orleans before Andrew Jackson had completed his defence works but the Americans did resist and so Packenham decided that he had better wait until all of his 10,000 troops were available. The British had multiple points of landing that would be better than the plantation that they chose between the Mississippi and a swamp. Rather, Jackson chose the site and the British decided to attack there. There were other options.

On Dec. 14, British gunboats destroyed American gunboats on Lake Borgne. But the action did delay the British and they did not pursue from that point. Meanwhile more American reinforcements were arriving. On Dec. 23, there was a night battle and both sides gave a good account and both withdrew. There were other skirmishes but the big battle was on Jan. 8.

The action did not end on that day despite the losses taken by the British. Remember this was a force of 10,000 soldiers and despite having 2000 casualties on the 8th, they were not finished. In fact, on Jan. 9, the British sailed up the Mississippi about 120 km and bombed Fort Phillips. But the Americans defended that fort and the British stayed until Jan. 18 and then sailed back to join the fleet.

The British hoped that by destroying the smaller forts upriver that they would be able to take New Orleans. The siege of Fort Phillips was unsuccessful as the British withdrew their landing party and left.

Meanwhile the British withdrew from the New Orleans battlefield in good order. They built roads through the swamps and 16 bridges over creeks and ravines. Andrew Jackson had actually lost contact with the British and was unsure of their next move. Despite having defeated the British and causing a withdrawal from the breastworks, Jackson did not pursue. The British actually had prepared for a counter attack but it did not materialize. Jackson continued to bombard where he felt the British were camped.

By Jan. 18, the last British outpost withdrew. The British set up dummies to make the Americans believe that they were still there. By noon on Jan. 19, 4700 soldiers had travelled along the roads and bridges that had been constructed and had boarded ship. The last of the British burned the bridges as they left.

Gen. Lambert was now in command of the British land forces and he decided that they would attack Mobile, Alabama but to do that he would have to take Fort Bowyer which protected Mobile Bay. On Feb. 8, 1815, Lambert landed 1000 troops near the fort and began to construct siegeworks. These were ready in short order and on Feb. 12, Lambert suggested to the American commander that he could safely send out women and children and that it would be prudent to surrender everyone. Greatly outnumbered, the American commander accepted the offer.

The British prepared to attack Mobile and American forces rushed to set up defences. But on Feb. 13 a British ship arrived and passed the message that the war was over.

The British could have kept up with these coastal attacks but they were aware that the destruction of ports alone was not going to bring a large country like the US to its knees.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/1/2022 8:32:32 PM
MD, you note:Quote:
1925 European powers sign a treaty guaranteeing peace in Europe! Yeah sure!? What say you?? Why couldn't this work? Anyone??

1959 12 countries sign the Antarctic Treaty, making it a non military, scientific only continent! Does your country have a base there?? Any one have a map of all the bases of Antarctica, Comments, & websites welcome??

Two very different treaties, but strangely linked by human nature. The 1925 treaty failed; the 1959 Treaty still survives in (1989) modified form. The difference is, I have to assume, that one treaty got in the way of various states’ self-interest in Europe, while self-interest was hard to find except for research purposes in Antarctica. It’s not the subject of any Treaty which might make it work, but the potential impact on national self-interest. Just think about how successful the nations of the world are being in slowing the threat of climate change. We can’t even meet our own pathetic targets, because it interferes with our social expectations.

You further note: Quote:
& as NYG says the Rosa Parks, back of the bus episode, what say you about that?


It may indeed have been one of the decisive actions of the Civil Rights Movement. To be honest, I don’t remember hearing Rosa Parks’s name at the time; gaining more recognition were folks like Medgar Evers and other martyrs to the cause. I respect Rosa Parks’ personal bravery in taking her stance (and keeping her seat!), and I’m pretty certain that the resulting bus boycott raised issues far beyond her action. That she would gain greater recognition later in her life is great; she deserved any attention she has received.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2022 6:43:34 AM
A day after Bolsheviks seize control of Russian military headquarters at Mogilev, a formal ceasefire is proclaimed throughout the battle zone between Russia and the Central Powers.

Immediately after their accession to power in Russia in November 1917, the Bolsheviks, led by Vladimir Lenin, had approached the Central Powers to arrange an armistice and withdraw from a war they saw as the major obstacle to their plan of providing food and land to the long-impoverished Russian peasant population. Leon Trotsky, in charge of foreign affairs, pressed Britain and France to open peace negotiations, threatening to make a separate armistice if his demands went unmet. After no response from the Allies, the Bolsheviks went ahead with their plan and made an appeal for peace that was welcomed by both Germany and Austria.

As a result of the ensuing negotiations at Brest-Litovsk, concluded in March 1918 after three months of debate and even renewed fighting in some areas, Russia would lose a million square miles of its territory, a third of its population, a majority of its coal, oil, and iron stores, and much of its industry. Lenin insisted that his Congress of Soviets accept the “shameful peace,” as he called it, “in order to save the world revolution” and “its only foothold — the Soviet Republic.”
===================================================================================================================================================

The Soviet Republic will try and spread Bolsheviks through war, attacking Poland . As the Poles did in 1683 stopping the Ottoman Empire at Vienna, the Poles wil again save Europe stopping the Soviets at the Miracle of the Vistula.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2022 1:54:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1814 General Andrew Jackson arrives in New Orleans & prepares as it turns out to rout the British! Why would the battle be so one sided!? Anyone??


Jackson arrived on this day but the final battle took place on Jan. 8.

Gen. Packenham of the British side was a good general but there was something sloppy about the preparations for this battle. And it seemed that the navy and the army were at odds. Packenham didn't pick the site upon which the final battle would be fought. That choice was made by the navy and Vice Admiral Cochrane. When Packenham arrived on Dec. 25, he said that he did not wish to attack from the position selected and upon which some troops had been landed.

The two fought about it and Packenham finally relented and his soldiers would be attacking a breastworks that had been over a month in the making. The British were extremely brave as they attacked but they could not even see their enemy some of whom carried weapons that could hit at greater distance than the British "brown Bess".

But what really destroyed the British was the eight batteries of cannon dotted along the line and another on the other side of the Mississippi that was raking the British left flank. Grape shot and canister cut down the advancing British and also killed Gen. Packenham.


Cheers,

George


Hi George,

I always thought Vice Admiral Cochrane was 1 of the RN,'s best naval commanders? He sure was left wanting here! Forcing the land commander to attack where he would surely lose! He played a big part in the large loss of British life, and losing the battle as well!?

Was he reprimanded??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2022 2:02:28 PM
Quote:

Just think about how successful the nations of the world are being in slowing the threat of climate change. We can’t even meet our own pathetic targets, because it interferes with our social expectations.

Cheers,
Brian G




Hi Brian,

So true! It's as if some groups are saying the hell with it! It interferes with our economy & other selfish priorities!! Do they really want to leave future generations to deal with our mess!???

Makes me sad, & angry!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2022 2:07:12 PM
Quote:
A day after Bolsheviks seize control of Russian military headquarters at Mogilev, a formal ceasefire is proclaimed throughout the battle zone between Russia and the Central Powers.

Immediately after their accession to power in Russia in November 1917, the Bolsheviks, led by Vladimir Lenin, had approached the Central Powers to arrange an armistice and withdraw from the war!?

NYG


Hey Giant,

This withdrawal really helped the Axis Powers, coming close to winning WWI for the bad guys??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2022 2:56:02 PM
They had use of the Eastern Front troops for the Western Front, but their supply situation didn't improve. If the Russians had changed sides something may have changed.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2022 3:59:35 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

I always thought Vice Admiral Cochrane was 1 of the RN,'s best naval commanders? He sure was left wanting here! Forcing the land commander to attack where he would surely lose! He played a big part in the large loss of British life, and losing the battle as well!?

Was he reprimanded??
Regards,
MD


I believe that Admiral Cochrane was in overall command.

And so when Cochrane argued that the battle should be fought at the place selected, Packenham had no authority to over rule as I understand it. I did read that Cochrane angrily told Packenham, and I am paraphrasing here, "if your army is not up to it then the sailors and marines shall take New Orleans and the army can follow with the baggage".

As well, Packenham was not the first choice to command the army at New Orleans. It was supposed to have been Robert Ross but he had been killed at Baltimore (I think).

As I recall, Vice Admiral Cochrane was heavily involved in the planning of the whole Louisiana Campaign and had recommended the attack on New Orleans. He reasoned that any US plans to take Canada would take a back seat if the Americans were to lose New Orleans. Note that the British considered the Louisiana Purchase to be illegitimate as it was made with Napoleon. However, it was supposed to be a diversionary attack.

As I mentioned before, there was opportunity in December to defeat the Americans before they had had a chance to set up their defences. When Jackson arrived the defences were in a shambles and New Orleans which was not really an "American" town was prepared to surrender. So was the Louisiana Legislature but Jackson illegally closed down the legislative house and wouldn't let the representatives meet after he declared martial law.

Bad planning on the part of the British.

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2022 6:24:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi George,

I always thought Vice Admiral Cochrane was 1 of the RN,'s best naval commanders? He sure was left wanting here! Forcing the land commander to attack where he would surely lose! He played a big part in the large loss of British life, and losing the battle as well!?

Was he reprimanded??
Regards,
MD


I believe that Admiral Cochrane was in overall command.

And so when Cochrane argued that the battle should be fought at the place selected, Packenham had no authority to over rule as I understand it. I did read that Cochrane angrily told Packenham, and I am paraphrasing here, "if your army is not up to it then the sailors and marines shall take New Orleans and the army can follow with the baggage".

Bad planning on the part of the British.

George


So George,

I wonder what Cochrane had to say to Pakenham after the battle, considering that his orders lead to this brave officers death!??

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/2/2022 8:39:28 PM
Quote:
So George,

I wonder what Cochrane had to say to Pakenham after the battle, considering that his orders lead to this brave officers death!??

MD


Pakenham died on the field of battle. He was wounded three times as he led troops forward to try to salvage the situation. The second wound from grape shot was to his knee and also killed his horse. He remounted another horse and was quickly hit in the spine. He was carried from the field on a stretcher and died on the Chalmette plantation battlefield.

So Cochrane wouldn't have been able to say anything to him. I presume the the Admiral would have been on his flagship just outside New Orleans.

Cochrane was known as a bold, brave and aggressive naval commander. He had distinguished himself in many battles throughout his career.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/3/2022 6:12:13 AM
In a letter dated December 3, 1776, General George Washington writes to Congress from his headquarters in Trenton, New Jersey, to report that he had transported much of the Continental Army’s stores and baggage across the Delaware River to Pennsylvania. His famous crossing of the Delawarewould come less than one month later.

In his letter, Washington wrote, "Immediately on my arrival here, I ordered the removal of all the military and other stores and baggage over the Delaware, a great quantity are already got over, and as soon as the boats come up from Philadelphia, we shall load them, by which means I hope to have every thing secured this night and tomorrow if we are not disturbed."

Washington then made the critical strategic move of confiscating and burning all the boats along the Delaware to prevent British troops from pursuing his beleaguered forces across the river. The British strategy of chasing Washington across New Jersey, rather than capturing his entire army in Manhattan, seemed to be a stroke of genius. As New Jersey was devastated at the hands of British forces and Washington’s men cowered in Pennsylvania, even staunch Patriots, including Thomas Jefferson, considered surrender to the crown.

Also on this day, General Washington received a letter dated November 30 from his second-in-command, General Charles Lee, reporting that he was about to cross into New York near Peekskill on this day in 1776. In an apt reflection of the state of the American fortunes, the British captured General Lee nine days later in New Jersey. Richard Stockton, a leading New Jersey patriot and signer of the Declaration of Independence, was also in British custody and was forced to swear an oath of allegiance to the British king along with thousands of his New Jersey neighbors.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/3/2022 12:25:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
So George,

I wonder what Cochrane had to say to Pakenham after the battle, considering that his orders lead to this brave officers death!??

MD


Pakenham died on the field of battle. He was wounded three times as he led troops forward to try to salvage the situation. The second wound from grape shot was to his knee and also killed his horse. He remounted another horse and was quickly hit in the spine. He was carried from the field on a stretcher and died on the Chalmette plantation battlefield.

So Cochrane wouldn't have been able to say anything to him. I presume the the Admiral would have been on his flagship just outside New Orleans.

Cochrane was known as a bold, brave and aggressive naval commander. He had distinguished himself in many battles throughout his career.

Cheers,

George


George,

The point I was making was that Cochrane in his decision on attacking New Orleans at Chalmette was a extremely bad one & really caused a lot of British casualties including indirectly the death of the army lead officer, Pakenham!?

In other words a terrible decision!? I know he was the over all commander, but,
What's a naval commander making land battlefield choices!?
In other words IMHO I'm blaming Cochrane!

What say you??
MD

BTW I have visited the Chalmette Plantation, battlefield site, I could tell what a bad choice for the British to fight, it was!? Visiting New Orleans is like going to another country, really a fun town!!? Anyone else been there??

PS Hey MHO members, please get involved more, with new or even old topics, like to hear from you, even a short post!???
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/4/2022 5:58:07 AM
In Warsaw, a group of Polish Christians put their own lives at risk when they set up the Council for the Assistance of the Jews. The group was led by two women, Zofia Kossak and Wanda Filipowicz.

Since the German invasion of Poland in 1939, the Jewish population had been either thrust into ghettos, transported to concentration and labor camps, or murdered. Jewish homes and shops were confiscated and synagogues were burned to the ground. Word about the Jews’ fate finally leaked out in June of 1942, when a Warsaw underground newspaper, the Liberty Brigade, made public the news that tens of thousands of Jews were being gassed at Chelmno, a death camp in Poland—almost seven months after the extermination of prisoners began.

Despite the growing public knowledge of the “Final Solution,” the mass extermination of European Jewry and the growing network of extermination camps in Poland, little was done to stop it. Outside Poland, there were only angry speeches from politicians and promises of postwar reprisals. Within Poland, non-Jewish Poles were themselves often the objects of persecution and forced labor at the hands of their Nazi occupiers; being Slavs, they too were considered “inferior” to the Aryan Germans.

But this did not stop Zofia Kossak and Wanda Filipowicz, two Polish Christians who were determined to do what they could to protect their Jewish neighbors. The fates of Kossak and Filipowicz are unclear so it is uncertain whether their mission was successful, but the very fact that they established the Council is evidence that some brave souls were willing to risk everything to help persecuted Jews. Kossak and Filipowicz were not alone in their struggle to help; in fact, only two days after the Council was established, the SS, Hitler’s “political” terror police force, rounded up 23 men, women, and children, and locked some in a cottage and some in a barn—then burned them alive. Their crime: suspicion of harboring Jews.

Despite the bravery of some Polish Christians, and Jewish resistance fighters within the Warsaw ghetto, who rebelled in 1943 (some of whom found refuge among their Christian neighbors as they attempted to elude the SS), the Nazi death machine proved overwhelming. Under Nazi occupation, Poland became the killing ground for not only Poland’s Jewish citizens, but much of Europe’s: Approximately 4.5 million Jews were killed in death and labor camps located in Poland by war’s end.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/4/2022 6:00:33 PM
Quote:


Since the German invasion of Poland in 1939, the Jewish population had been either thrust into ghettos, transported to concentration and labor camps, or murdered. Jewish homes and shops were confiscated and synagogues were burned to the ground. Word about the Jews’ fate finally leaked out in June of 1942, when a Warsaw underground newspaper, the Liberty Brigade, made public the news that tens of thousands of Jews were being gassed at Chelmno, a death camp in Poland.

Europe’s: Approximately 4.5 million Jews were killed in death and labor camps located in Poland by war’s end.

NYGiant


Hey NYG & anyone,

What European Countries had the most Jews, therefore targets of the Nazis! How many lost their lives to Hitler's' Germany?

Tough to talk about,
What say you ?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/4/2022 6:11:40 PM
In Poland in 1939 3.5 million...in the Soviet Union, 3.2 million.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 6:21:42 AM
The 21st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is ratified, repealing the 18th Amendment and bringing an end to the era of national prohibition of alcohol in America. At 5:32 p.m. EST, Utah became the 36th state to ratify the amendment, achieving the requisite three-fourths majority of states’ approval. Pennsylvania and Ohio had ratified it earlier in the day.

The movement for the prohibition of alcohol began in the early 19th century, when Americans concerned about the adverse effects of drinking began forming temperance societies. By the late 19th century, these groups had become a powerful political force, campaigning on the state level and calling for national liquor abstinence. Several states outlawed the manufacture or sale of alcohol within their own borders. In December 1917, the 18th Amendment, prohibiting the “manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors for beverage purposes,” was passed by Congress and sent to the states for ratification. On January 16, 1919, the 18th Amendment was ratified by the states. Prohibition went into effect the next year, on January 17, 1920.



In the meantime, Congress passed the Volstead Act on October 28, 1919, over President Woodrow Wilson’s veto. The Volstead Act provided for the enforcement of Prohibition, including the creation of a special Prohibition unit of the Treasury Department. In its first six months, the unit destroyed thousands of illicit stills run by bootleggers. However, federal agents and police did little more than slow the flow of booze, and organized crime flourished in America. Large-scale bootleggers like Al Capone of Chicagobuilt criminal empires out of illegal distribution efforts, and federal and state governments lost billions in tax revenue. In most urban areas, the individual consumption of alcohol was largely tolerated and drinkers gathered at “speakeasies,” the Prohibition-era term for saloons.

Prohibition, failing fully to enforce sobriety and costing billions, rapidly lost popular support in the early 1930s. In 1933, the 21st Amendment to the Constitution was passed and ratified, ending national Prohibition. After the repeal of the 18th Amendment, some states continued Prohibition by maintaining statewide temperance laws. Mississippi, the last dry state in the Union, ended Prohibition in 1966.​
================================================== ================================================== ===========================================

The attempt to legislate morality, failed!
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 7:15:12 AM
Henry J. Anslinger was out of a job as Prohibition Rulez Enforcer unless he found a new monster to hunt. Marijuana answered the call.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 8:05:08 AM
The relationship between Poland and the holocaust is complex. There are many stories of Polish Christians willing to risk hiding Jews or to help them escape.

But there are also many stories of collaboration with the Nazis and assistance provided to track down Jews. There was a 20,000 strong police force made up of Poles who were charged with guarding Jews in ghettos or assisting to load them on transports.

There are too many documented incidents of the murder of Polish Jews en masse in small towns in Poland where anti-semitism was well established before the war began.

The Polish government is very sensitive about negative comments that subject the country to suggestions that it was complicit in any way in the holocaust. When President Obama made reference to "Polish concentration camps" in a speech, he was called to task by the President of Poland who wanted it clarified that there were concentration camps in Poland but there were no camps associated with the Polish government of the day.

[Read More]

There are more Polish Christians acknowledged in Israel's designation of "Righteous Among Nations" than people from any other European country but we cannot ignore the anti-semitism that motivated too many Poles to discriminate and in some cases to kill Jews in Poland.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 8:45:21 AM
Hey guys, here are some other early December events! Comments welcome!?

12-2,

1804 Napoleon takes the Crown from the Pope, Luis II, & crowns himself emporer of France! How would you interpret this??

1823 the Monroe Doctrine goes into effect, basically saying you better not mess with the Western Hemisphere or you'll face the wrath of the US! Look out!? Comments??

1859 John Brown is hanged for taking Harper's Ferry to start a slave uprising!? Would you say he was a criminal or a hero? How does history remember him?? Anyone?

1854 the Senate votes to censor JP McCarthy for his Red Scare tactics! What do you think of him, & his fear mongering??

1993 Pablo Escobar killed in shoot out! Hat say you about this drug trafficer!? Why was he so powerful, & above the law? Comments?

2014 Canadian Ice hockey star Jean Beliveau passes away! Where does he rate as an NHL star?? Anyone?

12-3,

1854, in Victoria, Oz Diggers clash with government forces over gold fields! How did this play out? Who were the Diggers?? Anyone from Oz here to help??

1984 Gas leak in India 20,000 die! Who was to blame? Anyone??

12-4,

1093 New Arch Bishop of Canterbury, what's the big deal with Canterbury's leaders? Can someone explain this, you hear it in English litature, & history? Help us our??

1533 Ivan the Terrible named Grand Prince of Moscow! Why is he called the Terrible? Anyone??

1679 English Philosopher, Thomas Hobbes dies! How did he see things? What's his take?? What say you??

1909 Toronto wins the Grey Cup, things haven't changed they won it this year as well!? Any comments on the Argos, & the CFL, some say its dieing?? What say you?

1918, Woodrow Wilson founds the League of Nations, then the US doesn't even join? What's up with that?? Comments on why??

12-5,

1484, the Pope condemned Witchcraft! How superstitious they were back then!?? Why the hysteria? Comments?

1901 Walt Disney born, is there a Disney land property outside the US? Where? & why was Disney World in Florida threatened?? Anyone?

1839 George Armstrong Custer was born! Was he a great Cavalry Officer?? What's his legacy?? What say you?

1952 A deadly fog covers London killing thousands!? How could this possibly happen?? Comments?

1913 Nelson Mandela dies how did he change South African social standards!? Was he a great man?? What say you?

2017 why is Russia banned from the Winter Olympics?? Anyone??

Lots to discuss here!
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 12:47:26 PM
"1839 George Armstrong Custer was born! Was he a great Cavalry Officer?? What's his legacy?? What say you?"

Back around 2007 I was contacted by a person who knew I bought guns connected to the 19th C. US military. He said he had the Gatling guns that Custer had declined to take to Little Big Horn. The asking price was out of my league but it was an item I'd never heard of before. I remembered that Twilight Zone had done an episode where tankers somehow wound up on the day of Custer's Last Stand, but failed to bring up their tank.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 1:06:18 PM
There were three Model 1866 Gatling guns accompanied by an artillery detachment of the 20th infantry that accompanied General Terry`s column. They were offered to Custer, (along with 4 companies of Gibbon`s 2cd Cavalry.) He refused. He felt they would impede his march and were too cumbersome for the rugged terrain his march would cover. he was probably right about that...they had already had trouble with one of the Gatlings tipping over and injuring crew-members.

He was correct not to take them, he wanted no wagons and only pack mules. He was wrong about declining the offer of the 4 companies of cavalry from the 2cd. As he was reminded at his last officers call by Captain Benteen, " I feel we will regret not having them."

And so they did.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 1:11:53 PM
Quote:
1823 the Monroe Doctrine goes into effect, basically saying you better not mess with the Western Hemisphere or you'll face the wrath of the US! Look out!? Comments??


I think that it was more than that. Manifest Destiny coincided with US expansion and as such it was a statement that affirmed the US's self proclaimed right to expand either through coercion or force. As such it was an affirmation of US imperialism. This was a declaration that the whole western hemisphere was under the influence of US policies. Without asking any of the other countries in the hemisphere, the US declared the hemisphere to be within its sphere of influence. President Monroe approved wholeheartedly of expansion justified by this belief that expansion and control were ordained.

Quote:
the right of our manifest destiny to overspread and to possess the whole of the continent which Providence has given us for the development of the great experiment of liberty and federated self-government entrusted to us.
. source: John O'Sullivan, editor, The United States Magazine, 1845

The US public bought into this claim that their country was destined to possess the continent. Think of all the annexations of territories like Texas, East and West Florida, Oregon and even the purchase of Alaska were all partly justified as destiny fulfilled. Despite criticism domestically, the US declared war on Spain and claimed its North American territories and oddly, territories in the Pacific ocean, a long way from North America. Ostensibly, the war was necessary to protect Cuba from Spain. That was a change in application of the Monroe Doctrine I think though the end result was that the US obtained more territory.

And it was a warning of course particularly to Britain and France, both of whom were powerful and accused of interference in US affairs.

There were some in the US that disagreed with the declaration of Manifest Destiny as a guiding principle. They called it an act of unnecessary belligerence.

Teddy Roosevelt modified the principle of Manifest Destiny in his belief that the US had the right to interfere in the affairs of state of smaller nations in North America. The Roosevelt Corollary stated that if a smaller nation had a business deal with another less sophisticated country and the US felt that the deal was unfair, then the US reserved the right to interfere, even militarily if necessary.

Currently, we in North America may benefit from US military power but there is a price to be paid in terms of sovereignty. example: The US and Eritrea are the only countries in the world that tax their citizens who work and live in other countries. Canada, succumbing to economic pressures, has forced its banks to provide financial information to the IRS for US citizens living and working in Canada. Canada's banks must determine the citizenship of all clients and agree to supply the IRS with personal information. Failure to comply will result in 30% withholding tax on US sourced payments that the Canadian bank may have.

When US citizens pay their taxes to the Canada Revenue Agency, the CRA must provide those forms to the IRS. Look up FATCA for the details on these US laws and their extra-territorial reach.

This overreach by the US is a violation of Canadian Right to Privacy laws but hey, the US does what the US wants and compliance is deemed necessary lest one suffer the economic consequences.

You may argue that actions like this are not directly related to Manifest Destiny but I saw a direct relationship between MD and imperialism which includes economic imperialism in the modern era.

The part of me that wishes to be fair forces me to explain how Manifest Destiny or rather the Roosevelt Corollary was beneficial to Canada. At the beginning of WWII when Canada was at war and the US was neutral the other Roosevelt, FDR, came to Kingston, Ontario to make a speech in 1938. What he said has sometimes been called the "Canadian Corollary" to the Monroe Doctrine.

Essentially the Canadian Corollary states that it may be necessary for Canada and the US to ally to ensure the continuation and preservation of the North American cultures on the continent. By 1934, FDR had told the British that if they continued to pursue detente with Japan that the US would be force to treat with Canada to form some sort of protective alliance. He was letting the British know that he was prepared to interfere in their relationship with Canada.

In 1938 FDR stated to his Canadian audience at Queen's University, Quote:
"I give you assurance that the people of the United States will not stand idly by if domination of Canadian soil is threatened by any other empire."


As if to acknowledge the obvious that Canadian security was directly tied to US security, Canadian PM William Lyon Mackenzie-King said the following in response to FDR's 1938 speech:

Quote:
we, too, have our obligations as a good and friendly neighbour, and one of them is to see that, at our own instance, our country is made as immune from attack or possible invasion as we can reasonably be expected to make it, and that should the occasion ever arise, enemy forces should not be able to pursue their way, either by land, sea or air to the United States across Canadian territory.


And so Canada went to war quite assured that the homeland was reasonably safe from interference by foreign powers. The guarantee offered by FDR is a direct extension of Manifest Destiny.

While the original concept of Manifest Destiny is repugnant to me, I do see the there have been benefits to our relationship with the US under the "Canadian Corollary".

One more example of how Manifest Destiny interferes with Canadian foreign policy: During WWII Canada suspected that Vichy French operatives were signalling u-boats from the French islands of St. Pierre et Miquelon which sit about 30 km from the coast of Newfoundland. Canada planned to invade those islands but demurred partly because of pressure from the US government which viewed an occupation of St. Pierre by Canada as an act of imperialism against a North American country within this sphere of US influence as defined by the Monroe Doctrine. I suppose that there was only room for one imperialist in the hemisphere.
Cheers,

George
Steve Clements
Toronto ON Canada
Posts: 910
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 2:03:41 PM

Quote:
1909 Toronto wins the Grey Cup, things haven't changed they won it this year as well!? Any comments on the Argos, & the CFL, some say its dieing?? What say you?


Well, a Toronto team did win the 1909 Grey Cup, but it was not the Argos.... The Argos were around in 1909, but it was The University of Toronto Varsity Blues that beat the Parkdale Canoe Club (also from Toronto) in that year's {inaugural} Grey Cup.

Not unlike the early years of the Stanley Cup, there were multiple leagues that challenged for the Grey Cup. And well into the early 1930's, the University teams were often stronger than the "professional" teams....Queen's University Golden Gaels won three consecutive Grey Cups in the 1920's....and although I don't recall the exact year, apparently the McGill Redmen qualified for the Grey Cup one year...but had to pass, cuz the date of the Game would have interfered with exams. They obviously had different priorities then-:)

s.c.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 5:49:21 PM
Quote:
Hey guys, here are some other early December events not commented on yet! So, Comments are welcome!?

12-2,

1804 Napoleon takes the Crown from the Pope, Luis II, & crowns himself emporer of France! How would you interpret this?? Comments?

1859 John Brown is hanged for taking Harper's Ferry to start a slave uprising!? Would you say he was a criminal or a hero? How does history remember him?? Anyone?

1854 the Senate votes to censor JP McCarthy for his Red Scare tactics! What do you think of him, & his fear mongering??

1993 Pablo Escobar killed in shoot out! Hat say you about this drug trafficer!? Why was he so powerful, & above the law? Comments?

2014 Canadian Ice hockey star Jean Beliveau passes away! Where does he rate as an NHL star?? Anyone?

12-3,

1854, in Victoria, Oz Diggers clash with government forces over gold fields! How did this play out? Who were the Diggers?? Anyone from Oz here to help??

1984 Gas leak in India 20,000 die! Who was to blame? Anyone??

12-4,

1093 New Arch Bishop of Canterbury, what's the big deal with Canterbury's leaders? Can someone explain this, you hear it in English litature, & history? Help us out??

1533 Ivan the Terrible named Grand Prince of Moscow! Why is he called the Terrible? Anyone??

1679 English Philosopher, Thomas Hobbes dies! How did he see things? What's his take?? What say you?

1918, Woodrow Wilson founds the League of Nations, then the US doesn't even join? What's up with that?? Comments on why??

12-5,

1484, the Pope condemned Witchcraft! How superstitious they were back then!?? Why the hysteria? Comments?

1901 Walt Disney born, is there a Disney land property outside the US? Where? & why was Disney World in Florida threatened?? Anyone?? What say you?

1952 A deadly fog covers London killing thousands!? How could this possibly happen?? Comments?

1913 Nelson Mandela dies how did he change South African social standards!? Was he a great man?? What say you?

2017 why is Russia banned from the Winter Olympics of 2018?? Anyone??

Lots to discuss here!
Regards,
MD


BTW approximately how far would the Japanese strike fleet be from.Pearl Harbor on this day in 1941? To late to turn back? What say you??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 7:47:29 PM
Quote:
2017 why is Russia banned from the Winter Olympics of 2018?? Anyone??


They cheated at the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia in 2014.

The McLaren Report from the World Anti-Doping Agency found that the Russian Olympic team conspired to use performance enhancing drugs in many of their athletes. Even the drug testing lab at the Sochi Olympics was part of the conspiracy. We remember the "mousehole" at the doping labs that allowed the technicians to pass the urine of a doped up Russian athlete out of the lab and to receive a vial of clean urine from someone outside the lab.

McLaren discovered that the scheme to cheat and then to cover up the test results involved over 1000 Russian athletes.

The Russian Olympic Team was remarkably unsuccessful at the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver where they won only 15 medals. Fast forward to 2014 and their own games at Sochi and the Russian Olympic team won 33 medals, 13 of them gold. They led the medal count at Sochi that is until the cheating scandal broke.

The sad part is that while many athletes were later awarded medals that were taken away from Russian athletes, they missed the thrill of seeing their national flag raised at an Olympic medal presentation ceremony and the honour of hearing their anthem play if they were the gold medal winner.


Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 8:28:40 PM
Quote:
1093 New Arch Bishop of Canterbury, what's the big deal with Canterbury's leaders? Can someone explain this, you hear it in English litature, & history? Help us out?

The new Archbishop of 1093 was Anselm, 36th appointee to the position. The first Archbishop was Augustine, appointed in 597. I have no idea why this particular appointee is being recognized in “This Day in History” (or wherever it was plucked from).

Anselm was a respected scholar (in the old meaning) in Normandy when he reluctantly accepted his archbishopric from William II. He brought piety and theology together in ways which would be appreciated by any king and honoured by the church.

The Archbishop of Canterbury appears in English/British history very often, as you note. But it was in 597 and remains now the first and largest diocese in the kingdom. As such, its spiritual head has always played a significant role in the royal, religious and political history of the kingdom. Particularly after Henry VIII’s decision to separate from the Church of Rome, those holding the archbishopric of Canterbury became spiritual heads of a changing faith, a position not without peril. Thomas Cramner, first Protestant Archbishop of Canterbury, and a reformist much more extreme than Henry VIII, was burned at the stake by Mary I for refusing to renounce his beliefs.

That’s all too brief a statement.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 8:37:47 PM
dup
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/5/2022 9:02:14 PM
Quote:
1952 A deadly fog covers London killing thousands!? How could this possibly happen?

I should leave this for Phil, perhaps, but I remember headlines about “pea-soupers” from when I was a lad, and I spent time in London both in 1960 and in 1970. I believe the “great cleanup” began between those dates, but I must say that on those two visits London was a filthy. Heat was overwhelmingly by coal or by electricity which was coal-generated. Buildings dripped with soot. So did skin, as late as 1970, when London was receiving the cleaning of its life, after walking home from the Royal Academy to my lodgings near St Pancras I could draw visible lines on my face because of the air-borne soot which accumulated. Not nice.

Of course, London wasn’t the only city dying from its own belching. LA and smog were synonymous for years. Think today of Beijing or Delhi. Dying in their own effluent!

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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