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NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/6/2022 7:00:56 AM
President Roosevelt—convinced on the basis of intelligence reports that the Japanese fleet is headed for Thailand, not the United States—telegrams Emperor Hirohito with the request that “for the sake of humanity,” the emperor intervene “to prevent further death and destruction in the world.”

The Royal Australian Air Force had sighted Japanese escorts, cruisers, and destroyers on patrol near the Malayan coast, south of Cape Cambodia. An Aussie pilot managed to radio that it looked as if the Japanese warships were headed for Thailand—just before he was shot down by the Japanese. Back in England, Prime Minister Churchill called a meeting of his chiefs of staff to discuss the crisis. While reports were coming in describing Thailand as the Japanese destination, they began to question whether it could have been a diversion. British intelligence had intercepted the Japanese code “Raffles,” a warning to the Japanese fleet to be on alert—but for what?

Britain was already preparing Operation Matador, the launching of their 11th Indian Division into Thailand to meet the presumed Japanese invasion force. But at the last minute, Air Marshal Brooke-Popham received word not to cross the Thai border for fear that it would provoke a Japanese attack if, in fact, the warship movement was merely a bluff.

Meanwhile, 600 miles northwest of Hawaii, Admiral Yamamoto, commander of the Japanese fleet, announced to his men: “The rise or fall of the empire depends upon this battle. Everyone will do his duty with utmost efforts.” Thailand was, in fact, a bluff. Pearl Harbor in Oahu, Hawaii was confirmed for Yamamoto as the Japanese target, after the Japanese consul in Hawaii had reported to Tokyo that a significant portion of the U.S. Pacific fleet would be anchored in the harbor—sitting ducks. The following morning, Sunday, December 7, was a good day to begin a raid.

“The son of man has just sent his final message to the son of God,” FDR joked to Eleanor after sending off his telegram to Hirohito, who in the Shinto tradition of Japan was deemed a god. As he enjoyed his stamp collection and chatted with Harry Hopkins, his personal adviser, news reached him of Japan’s formal rejection of America’s 10-point proposals for peace and an end to economic sanctions and the oil embargo placed on the Axis power. “This means war,” the president declared. Hopkins recommended an American first strike. “No, we can’t do that,” Roosevelt countered. “We are a democracy and a peaceful people.”

OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/6/2022 7:49:22 AM
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/Magic.html
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/6/2022 9:01:22 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hey guys, here are some other early December events not commented on yet! So, Comments are still welcome!?

12-2,

1804 Napoleon takes the Crown from the Pope, Luis II, & crowns himself emporer of France! How would you interpret this?? Comments?

1859 John Brown is hanged for taking Harper's Ferry to start a slave uprising!? Would you say he was a criminal or a hero? How does history remember him?? Anyone?

1854 the Senate votes to censor JP McCarthy for his Red Scare tactics! What do you think of him, & his fear mongering??

1993 Pablo Escobar killed in shoot out! Hat say you about this drug trafficer!? Why was he so powerful, & above the law? Comments?

2014 Canadian Ice hockey star Jean Beliveau passes away! Where does he rate as an NHL star?? Anyone?

12-3,

1854, in Victoria, Oz Diggers clash with government forces over gold fields! How did this play out? Who were the Diggers?? Anyone from Oz here to help??

1984 Gas leak in India 20,000 die! Who was to blame? Anyone??

12-4,

1093 New Arch Bishop of Canterbury, what's the big deal with Canterbury's leaders? Can someone explain this, you hear it in English litature, & history? Help us out?? Thanks Bri.

1533 Ivan the Terrible named Grand Prince of Moscow! Why is he called the Terrible? Anyone??

1679 English Philosopher, Thomas Hobbes dies! How did he see things? What's his take?? What say you?

1918, Woodrow Wilson founds the League of Nations, then the US doesn't even join? What's up with that?? Comments on why??

12-5,

1484, the Pope condemned Witchcraft! How superstitious they were back then!?? Why the hysteria? Comments?

1901 Walt Disney born, is there a Disney land property outside the US? Where? & why was Disney World in Florida threatened?? Anyone?? What say you?

1952 A deadly fog covers London killing thousands!? How could this possibly happen?? Comments? Thanks Brian.

1913 Nelson Mandela dies how did he change South African social standards!? Was he a great man?? What say you?

2017 why is Russia banned from the Winter Olympics of 2018?? Anyone?? Thanks George.

Lots to discuss here!
Regards,
MD


BTW approximately how far would the Japanese strike fleet be from.Pearl Harbor on this day in 1941? To late to turn back? What say you?? Thanks OP!

12-6,

King Henry VI was born in Berkshire, we always hear about Henry VIII, how was this and other king Henry's as monarchs of England? Anyone??

1534 Pizzaro's men are taking over Quito, Ecuador from the Incas!? Did the world lose great civilizations because of the Spanish? What say you??

1865 Georgia becomes the 26th state to outlaw slavery! What took them so long??

1917 Finland declared independence from Russia! The countries of Scandinavia are certainly brave to stand up to the Soviets! What say you??

Also as you we use Encyclopedia Britannica as our source for daily events, so feel free to go to their website!?


MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/6/2022 9:22:30 AM
[Read More]

Here you go OP, I put your quote site to an easier "read more"!

Cheers,
MD

BTW, thanks a great site showing what the IJN was up to leading to December 7th!? Including messages during the whole month of December concerning US- Japan relations, Including the famous 14 point letter from Japan's Government, remember point 14 shows peace is not an option? Looks like war!? Comments anyone??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/6/2022 9:48:02 AM
Quote:
President Roosevelt—convinced on the basis of intelligence reports that the Japanese fleet is headed for Thailand, not the United States—telegrams Emperor Hirohito with the request that “for the sake of humanity,” the emperor intervene “to prevent further death and destruction in the world.”

The Royal Australian Air Force had sighted Japanese escorts, cruisers, and destroyers on patrol near the Malayan coast, south of Cape Cambodia. An Aussie pilot managed to radio that it looked as if the Japanese warships were headed for Thailand—just before he was shot down by the Japanese. Back in England, Prime Minister Churchill called a meeting of his chiefs of staff to discuss the crisis. While reports were coming in describing Thailand as the Japanese destination, they began to question whether it could have been a diversion. British intelligence had intercepted the Japanese code “Raffles,” a warning to the Japanese fleet to be on alert—but for what?

Britain was already preparing Operation Matador, the launching of their 11th Indian Division into Thailand to meet the presumed Japanese invasion force. But at the last minute, Air Marshal Brooke-Popham received word not to cross the Thai border for fear that it would provoke a Japanese attack if, in fact, the warship movement was merely a bluff.

Meanwhile, 600 miles northwest of Hawaii, Admiral Yamamoto, commander of the Japanese fleet, announced to his men: “The rise or fall of the empire depends upon this battle. Everyone will do his duty with utmost efforts.” Thailand was, in fact, a bluff. Pearl Harbor in Oahu, Hawaii was confirmed for Yamamoto as the Japanese target, after the Japanese consul in Hawaii had reported to Tokyo that a significant portion of the U.S. Pacific fleet would be anchored in the harbor—sitting ducks. The following morning, Sunday, December 7, was a good day to begin a raid.

“The son of man has just sent his final message to the son of God,” FDR joked to Eleanor after sending off his telegram to Hirohito, who in the Shinto tradition of Japan was deemed a god. As he enjoyed his stamp collection and chatted with Harry Hopkins, his personal adviser, news reached him of Japan’s formal rejection of America’s 10-point proposals for peace and an end to economic sanctions and the oil embargo placed on the Axis power. “This means war,” the president declared. Hopkins recommended an American first strike. “No, we can’t do that,” Roosevelt countered. “We are a democracy and a peaceful people.”



Hey guys,

A lot of historians say FDR knew of the up coming attack on Pearl, but did nothing because he & WSC wanted the US in WWII!? I find this hard to understand, considering the loss of American lives in the Surprise attack at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941?

What say you?
A good discussion question!? Anyone??
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/6/2022 2:01:44 PM
A few years ago I came across this book To Have and Have Not: Southeast Asian Raw Materials and the Origins of the Pacific War by Jonathan Marshall. If you're interested in it you can read it online at the link below. If you prefer to save it as a pdf on your computer just click the print view above it and then use the print to pdf function on your computer.

[[Read More]

Gary
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/6/2022 8:00:54 PM
Thanks Gary,

Looks like a interesting read! I'll have to check it out!

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 6:08:08 AM
A date which will live in infamy.....


At 7:55 a.m. Hawaii time, a Japanese dive bomber bearing the red symbol of the Rising Sun of Japan on its wings appears out of the clouds above the island of Oahu. A swarm of 360 Japanese warplanes followed, descending on the U.S. naval base at Pearl Harbor in a ferocious assault. The surprise attack struck a critical blow against the U.S. Pacific fleet and drew the United States irrevocably into World War II.​

With diplomatic negotiations with Japan breaking down, President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his advisers knew that an imminent Japanese attack was probable, but nothing had been done to increase security at the important naval base at Pearl Harbor. It was Sunday morning, and many military personnel had been given passes to attend religious services off base. At 7:02 a.m., two radar operators spotted large groups of aircraft in flight toward the island from the north, but, with a flight of B-17s expected from the United States at the time, they were told to sound no alarm. Thus, the Japanese air assault came as a devastating surprise to the naval base.​

Much of the Pacific fleet was rendered useless: Five of eight battleships, three destroyers, and seven other ships were sunk or severely damaged, and more than 200 aircraft were destroyed. A total of 2,400 Americans were killed and 1,200 were wounded, many while valiantly attempting to repulse the attack. Japan’s losses were some 30 planes, five midget submarines, and fewer than 100 men. Fortunately for the United States, all three Pacific fleet carriers were out at sea on training maneuvers. These giant aircraft carriers would have their revenge against Japan six months later at the Battle of Midway, reversing the tide against the previously invincible Japanese navy in a spectacular victory.​

The day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, President Roosevelt appeared before a joint session of Congress and declared, “Yesterday, December 7, 1941–a date which will live in infamy–the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.” After a brief and forceful speech, he asked Congress to approve a resolution recognizing the state of war between the United States and Japan. The Senate voted for war against Japan by 82 to 0, and the House of Representatives approved the resolution by a vote of 388 to 1. The sole dissenter was Representative Jeannette Rankin of Montana, a devout pacifist who had also cast a dissenting vote against the U.S. entrance into World War I. Three days later, Germany and Italy declared war against the United States, and the U.S. government responded in kind.

The American contribution to the successful Allied war effort spanned four long years and cost more than 400,000 American lives.
================================================== ================================================== ==========================================

A visit tot the USS Arizona is a must for all who visit Hawai'i. Sobering and reflective. The Champ and I visited the last time we were there. Oil is still leaking for the battleship. We also paid our respects to an airman from my home town in addition to visiting the Cemetery.

OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 8:49:30 AM
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/ Scroll down for material directly related to the raid.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 11:07:52 AM
Quote:
A few years ago I came across this book To Have and Have Not: Southeast Asian Raw Materials and the Origins of the Pacific War by Jonathan Marshall. If you're interested in it you can read it online at the link below. If you prefer to save it as a pdf on your computer just click the print view above it and then use the print to pdf function on your computer.

[[Read More]

Gary



Thank you for sharing that link Gary.

Of course right off the bat in the preface this jumped out at me and fits perfectly into what is taking place in the world right now between China, Russia, Ukraine, Western Europe, the MidEast and USA (listing some but not all influenced country's);

"Whoever controls world resources controls the world in a way that mere occupation of territory cannot match," one popular book declared in 1980. ". . . If there is another world war, the conflict will most likely be over what the industrial states have come to regard as the elements of survival. Oil, of course, but also iron, copper, uranium, cobalt, wheat, and water."

I do not have the time right now to see exactly where that quote came from but, whoever said it has nailed the crux of world governments, the political philosophies of, as well as life and death on planet Earth.



----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 1:15:41 PM
Dan, from what I know about you from your posts, you are probably one of the sane people who has informed themselves about the growing war on farmers and farms. The cultists are going after fertilizer and using climate change to further erode the effectiveness of our farms. This, incredibly, at a time when Ukraine, one of the worlds breadbasket nations is in turmoil. The Netherlands is fighting the cultist war on farms....and the Netherlands is the number two agricultural exporter in the world ( behind the United States.) The starvation and genocide that we are headed to, willingly (or ignorantly) is startling. It`s a coming PC hollodomor.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 3:40:53 PM
Hi OP,

Here is your website in an easier to access, "read more"!?

[Read More]

Thanks, excellent source on Pearl Harbor! & for that matter most all areas of WWII??
Regards
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 4:56:28 PM
Hyperwar is very comprehensive. [Read More] The PHA site was created by myself and Gordon Mork when he was head of the History Dept. at Purdue.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 4:57:38 PM
"Bankrupting the Enemy" is a good read on the international economics.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 5:03:39 PM
Pearl Harbor Day trivia: The Japanese landed at Khota Baru before the attack on Pearl started.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 5:14:06 PM
AND Yamamoto never said that "sleeping giant" BS.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 7:09:41 PM
Hi OP,

We know that Yamamoto, lived and schooled in the US, he knew of it's industrial might! I'm sure he told the higher ups of the IJN that war with the US would have to be won quickly or once the war machine of America kicked in Japan could not win!?

What say you?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 8:17:16 PM
Quote:
Dan, from what I know about you from your posts, you are probably one of the sane people who has informed themselves about the growing war on farmers and farms. The cultists are going after fertilizer and using climate change to further erode the effectiveness of our farms. This, incredibly, at a time when Ukraine, one of the worlds breadbasket nations is in turmoil. The Netherlands is fighting the cultist war on farms....and the Netherlands is the number two agricultural exporter in the world ( behind the United States.) The starvation and genocide that we are headed to, willingly (or ignorantly) is startling. It`s a coming PC hollodomor.

Respects, Morris


Its rather stunning how this is all unfolding. Pandemics, crime and illegal immigration rampant, and as mentioned the war for resources. Seems as though the human race is bent on the destruction of itself through fellow man, woman, child, community, etc. While we may have learned a lot from history, it is obvious we have taken the finer learnings of evil to heart.

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 8:54:17 PM
Only two atomic bombs have been used in combat.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 9:11:39 PM
Netherlands is a small country. It's position on the list of top agricultural export countries is due to the quantity of flowers and live plants that it grows which is about 50% of the world's supply. It is quite far down the list when compared with countries that grow products more useful as food like wheat, pulses, lentils or beef and poultry.

How much of this anti-globalism and anti-farmer talk is coming from the religious right?

[Read More]

The opposition in Netherlands is to intensive farming techniques that result in an overproduction of manure. The Dutch cannot recycle this manure on their land because they produce much more of it than is needed. Netherlands has a high concentration of manure producing animals on a very small land mass. Manure means nitrogen and nitrous oxide released into the environment.

Intensive farming or corporate farms are not representative of the small farmer who engages in mixed farming. These are a dying breed and are replaced by factory farms which are problematic environmentally whether you believe in climate change or not.

A state like Wisconsin has so many dairy cattle that it overproduces milk product to the point that the US government has to subsidize those dairy farmers without markets to sell the product. That isn't sustainable is it? What is wrong with sustainable farming?

George

Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/7/2022 9:41:16 PM
MD, we’ve certainly been told about his belief in US industrial might.And we’ve been told he’d been schooled in the US, though in truth he was schooled in Japan and tested in major battle (Battle of Tsushima, 1905) before studying in the US. And if he spend time during the 1920s and 1930s in the US, he was astute enough to recognize how weak the US was with its industrial power (think 1929+) and capable enough to recognize that the post-WW1 isolationism appeared to be ongoing and perhaps becoming stronger. There was little to suggest that the US would fight in the Pacific when they refused to fight in a European campaign.

He also could not fail to know, as a naval officer of senior rank, that the US Navy was equipped to the same relative levels as Japan herself was: both were, like most other major navies of the world, under the “ratio” construction controls of various Naval Treaties. The USMC, the aggressive arm of the USN, were small and ill-equipped. The US Army was pathetically small and horribly equipped, and its aviation wing was still being developed as a defensive weapon. IIRC, in 1939 the US Army was ranked something like 17th in size, capability and effectiveness – just behind someone like Portugal!

At the same time, Yamamoto could not have missed the immense potential of the US landmass to provide basic weapons. This too he must have passed on.

My point, I guess, is that Yamamoto may have sent huge numbers of dispatches back to Japan, but that they could have been used very differently by Japanese command. Yamamoto was, after all, a powerful voice but on the wrong side of Japanese war assessments.Army goals and assessment fit more fully with the goals of the IJA in Manchukuo, but also with Army plans for further military expansion, to some extent based on the German assault on Soviet Russia.

I could go on, but don’t want to lose your point. Thanks for raising Yamamoto’s possible assessments.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/8/2022 6:25:52 AM
US declares war on Japan.

On December 8, as America’s Pacific fleet lay in ruins at Pearl Harbor, President Franklin Roosevelt requests, and receives, a declaration of war against Japan.

Leaning heavily on the arm of his son James, a Marine captain, FDR walked haltingly into the House of Representatives at noon to request a declaration of war from the House and address the nation via radio. “Yesterday,” the president proclaimed, “December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan. No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.”

Roosevelt’s 10-minute speech, ending with an oath-“So help us God”—was greeted in the House by thunderous applause and stamping of feet. Within one hour, the president had his declaration of war, with only one dissenting vote, from a pacifist in the House. FDR signed the declaration at 4:10 p.m., wearing a black armband to symbolize mourning for those lost at Pearl Harbor.

On both coasts, civilian defense groups were mobilized. In New York, Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia ordered the rounding up of Japanese nationals, who were transported to Ellis Island and held in custody indefinitely. In California, antiaircraft batteries were set up on Long Beach and the Hollywood Hills. Reports on supposed spy activity on the part of Japanese Americans began pouring into Washington, even as Japanese Americans paid for space in newspapers to declare unreservedly their loyalty to the United States. The groundwork was being laid for the tragic internment of Japanese Americans, thought a necessary caution at the time but regretted years later as a hysterical and bigoted response.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/8/2022 7:03:31 AM
"Game on!"
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
12/8/2022 9:52:21 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Dan, from what I know about you from your posts, you are probably one of the sane people who has informed themselves about the growing war on farmers and farms. The cultists are going after fertilizer and using climate change to further erode the effectiveness of our farms. This, incredibly, at a time when Ukraine, one of the worlds breadbasket nations is in turmoil. The Netherlands is fighting the cultist war on farms....and the Netherlands is the number two agricultural exporter in the world ( behind the United States.) The starvation and genocide that we are headed to, willingly (or ignorantly) is startling. It`s a coming PC hollodomor.

Respects, Morris


Its rather stunning how this is all unfolding. Pandemics, crime and illegal immigration rampant, and as mentioned the war for resources. Seems as though the human race is bent on the destruction of itself through fellow man, woman, child, community, etc. While we may have learned a lot from history, it is obvious we have taken the finer learnings of evil to heart.



George asks, what is the harm in "sustainable farming" I simply reply that I want farmers farming, people who know from generations on down how to produce for the needs of human beings...not some know-it-all central planners who have screwed up energy production, who have handed over control to China through globalist foolishness, and now are trying to central plan us into a food nightmare. And lets do this stupid 'experiment" during high inflation...when so many poor and middle class are already being hammered by high prices! Brilliant!

If these pied pipers of cultism are allowed to continue, then we wind up with more Robert Mugabe , where the government takes over farming and lands, give control to idiots who don`t know how to produce...and blights a breadbasket nation into a food desert.
Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
12/8/2022 10:14:38 AM
In Shri Lanka, the move to central planning of farming claimed to have "technocratic expertise, BUT MOST OF SHRI LANKA` S LEADING AGRICULTURAL EXPERTS WERE KEPT OUT OF CRAFTING THE AGRICULTURAL SECTION OF THE PLATFORM...." according to Foreign Policy .

This is what you get when you allow a John Kerry, who only knows how to marry rich women....twice...start central planning your lives.

Respects, Morris

----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/8/2022 12:27:55 PM
The attack on Pearl Harbor was a devastating attack however, there is much more to the results and what was seen in the Harbor.

Eight battleships (BB) were at Pearl, all hit, and hit hard. Of those eight, only two would not serve again, Arizona and Oklahoma. Maryland, Tennessee & Pennsylvania would return to service in 1942, more on that in a moment. Nevada, California & West Virginia would return to service in 42, 44 & 44, respectively.

In addition to this, three cruisers (CL) were hit but all three returned to service; Honolulu 1/42, Helena 6/42 & Raleigh 7/42.

For the destroyers (DD), Shaw (amazingly!), Cassin, Downes & Helm all returned to service, 44, 44, 43 & 42, respectively.

The military force that really took it in the teeth, regarding weaponry systems, was the US Army Air Corps who lost 77 a/c destroyed and another 128 heavily damaged. Add in the US Navy losses of 92 destroyed & 31 heavily damaged.

After the attack US ship and a/c power projection in the Pacific seemed to be nearly obliterated but it wasn't! The carriers were intact, the BB's would be shunned out of necessity and due to the emergence of the carrier as the force projection weapon system in the Pacific.

Neither force had an advantage significant enough to win the war outright after Pearl, that would take all of 1942 to accomplish and even then, 1943 was for these forces a time of recovery, rebuild and re-strategize until the US could bring to bear its unstoppable force in the Pacific, 1944-45.

It would take the carriers and crews of both sides battling it out throughout 1942 which would entail US successful battles at Coral Sea, Midway, draws at the battles of Eastern Islands and Santa Cruz as well as the punishing surface battles in the Solomons to determine in the long haul of war, who would be the victor and the defeated.

The US battleship "fleet" may lie at the bottom of the harbor at Pearl in December 1941 but the "US fleet" was far from out of the fight.





----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/8/2022 2:15:23 PM
Quote:
In Shri Lanka, the move to central planning of farming claimed to have "technocratic expertise, BUT MOST OF SHRI LANKA` S LEADING AGRICULTURAL EXPERTS WERE KEPT OUT OF CRAFTING THE AGRICULTURAL SECTION OF THE PLATFORM...." according to Foreign Policy .

This is what you get when you allow a John Kerry, who only knows how to marry rich women....twice...start central planning your lives.

Respects, Morris


Do you have a quote or a citation that mentions John Kerry and his agricultural planning for Sri Lanka?

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/8/2022 8:43:58 PM
Quote:
The attack on Pearl Harbor was a devastating attack however, there is much more to the results and what was seen in the Harbor.

Eight battleships (BB) were at Pearl, all hit, and hit hard. Of those eight, only two would not serve again, Arizona and Oklahoma. Maryland, Tennessee & Pennsylvania would return to service in 1942, more on that in a moment. Nevada, California & West Virginia would return to service in 42, 44 & 44, respectively.

In addition to this, three cruisers (CL) were hit but all three returned to service; Honolulu 1/42, Helena 6/42 & Raleigh 7/42.

For the destroyers (DD), Shaw (amazingly!), Cassin, Downes & Helm all returned to service, 44, 44, 43 & 42, respectively.

The US battleship "fleet" may lie at the bottom of the harbor at Pearl in December 1941 but the "US fleet" was far from out of the fight.




Good points DT,

The Pearl Harbor attack was not complete they didn't hit the Oil & fuel tanks, & repair facilities, dry docks, ect! They could have been even more effective, & damaging!? What say you??

It would prove costly to the IJN !
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
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This day in World History! Continued
12/8/2022 8:54:10 PM
Nagumo Kido Butai didn't have the weapons to destroy the shore facilities. The oil tanks had retaining berms around them, the tanks had been known to rupture without being attacked, and there were about 100 of them on the base. Strafing would have been ignored by the tanks. The fighters' quick fused ammo would have maybe spalled the tanks, but not ruptured them. The repair facilities were more obdurate than simple buildings, the machine tools were a tough thing to kill as Stalingrad's tank factory demonstrated. Spare gates were on hand if the dry dock doors had been torpedoed and the special torpedoes were earmarked for the BBs anyway. Alan Zimm's book on Pearl Harbor considers alternative/additional targets.

The Attack on Pearl Harbor: Strategy, Combat, Myths, Deceptions
by Alan D. Zimm | Jan 10, 2020
George
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About six hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces attacked the British, Canadian and Indian troops who were defending Hong Kong. The garrison lasted until Dec. 25 and inflicted many casualties on the Japanese but at great cost to the defenders.

George
GaryNJ
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12/8/2022 11:56:01 PM
Quote:
Nagumo Kido Butai didn't have the weapons to destroy the shore facilities. The oil tanks had retaining berms around them, the tanks had been known to rupture without being attacked, and there were about 100 of them on the base. Strafing would have been ignored by the tanks. The fighters' quick fused ammo would have maybe spalled the tanks, but not ruptured them. The repair facilities were more obdurate than simple buildings, the machine tools were a tough thing to kill as Stalingrad's tank factory demonstrated. Spare gates were on hand if the dry dock doors had been torpedoed and the special torpedoes were earmarked for the BBs anyway. Alan Zimm's book on Pearl Harbor considers alternative/additional targets.

The Attack on Pearl Harbor: Strategy, Combat, Myths, Deceptions
by Alan D. Zimm | Jan 10, 2020


OP,

Looks like a really interesting book. Just picked it up on Amazon Kindle for only $2.99.
Thanks.

Gary
OpanaPointer
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12/9/2022 7:12:46 AM
Zimm is a good analyst and his War College time made him a good source.
NYGiant
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World War I Notes

On the morning of December 9, 1917, after Turkish troops move out of the region after only a single day s fighting, officials of the Holy City of Jerusalem offer the keys to the city to encroaching British troops.

The British, led by General Edmund Allenby, who had arrived from the Western Front the previous June to take over the command in Egypt, entered the Holy City two days later under strict instructions from London on how not to appear disrespectful to the city, its people, or its traditions. Allenby entered Jerusalem on foot—in deliberate contrast to Kaiser Wilhelm's more flamboyant entrance on horseback in 1898—and no Allied flags were flown over the city, while Muslim troops from India were dispatched to guard the religious landmark the Dome of the Rock.

In a proclamation declaring martial law that was read aloud to the city s people in English, French, Arabic, Hebrew, Russian and Greek, Allenby assured them that the occupying power would not inflict further harm on Jerusalem, its inhabitants, or its holy places. “Since your city is regarded with affection by the adherents of three of the great religions of mankind and its soil has been consecrated by the prayers and pilgrimages of multitudes of devout people, I make it known to you that every sacred building, monument, holy spot, shrine, traditional site, endowment, pious bequest, or customary place of prayer will be maintained and protected according to the existing customs and beliefs of those to whose faith they are sacred.”

Church bells in Rome and London rang to celebrate the peaceful British arrival in Jerusalem. Allenby's success, after so much discouragement on the Western Front, elated and inspired Allied supporters everywhere.
NYGiant
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12/9/2022 7:38:22 AM
Quote:
The attack on Pearl Harbor was a devastating attack however, there is much more to the results and what was seen in the Harbor.

Eight battleships (BB) were at Pearl, all hit, and hit hard. Of those eight, only two would not serve again, Arizona and Oklahoma. Maryland, Tennessee & Pennsylvania would return to service in 1942, more on that in a moment. Nevada, California & West Virginia would return to service in 42, 44 & 44, respectively.

In addition to this, three cruisers (CL) were hit but all three returned to service; Honolulu 1/42, Helena 6/42 & Raleigh 7/42.

For the destroyers (DD), Shaw (amazingly!), Cassin, Downes & Helm all returned to service, 44, 44, 43 & 42, respectively.

The military force that really took it in the teeth, regarding weaponry systems, was the US Army Air Corps who lost 77 a/c destroyed and another 128 heavily damaged. Add in the US Navy losses of 92 destroyed & 31 heavily damaged.

After the attack US ship and a/c power projection in the Pacific seemed to be nearly obliterated but it wasn't! The carriers were intact, the BB's would be shunned out of necessity and due to the emergence of the carrier as the force projection weapon system in the Pacific.

Neither force had an advantage significant enough to win the war outright after Pearl, that would take all of 1942 to accomplish and even then, 1943 was for these forces a time of recovery, rebuild and re-strategize until the US could bring to bear its unstoppable force in the Pacific, 1944-45.

It would take the carriers and crews of both sides battling it out throughout 1942 which would entail US successful battles at Coral Sea, Midway, draws at the battles of Eastern Islands and Santa Cruz as well as the punishing surface battles in the Solomons to determine in the long haul of war, who would be the victor and the defeated.

The US battleship "fleet" may lie at the bottom of the harbor at Pearl in December 1941 but the "US fleet" was far from out of the fight.






The battleship USS Utah was also sunk at Pearl Harbor. In 1931, Utah was demilitarized and converted into a target ship and re-designated as AG-16, in accordance with the terms of the London Naval Treaty signed the previous year. She was also equipped with numerous anti-aircraft guns of different types to train gunners for the fleet. She served in these two roles for the rest of the decade, and late 1941 found the ship in Pearl Harbor.

58 sailors lie entombed.

This Memorial is rather restricted now as was explained to me on my last visit.
OpanaPointer
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12/9/2022 11:19:34 AM
The Japanese pilots were told about the status of Utah, but buck fever was rampant that day. Discipline would have cost the USN more.
DT509er
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12/9/2022 11:42:46 AM
Quote:
The battleship USS Utah was also sunk at Pearl Harbor. In 1931, Utah was demilitarized and converted into a target ship and re-designated as AG-16, in accordance with the terms of the London Naval Treaty signed the previous year. She was also equipped with numerous anti-aircraft guns of different types to train gunners for the fleet. She served in these two roles for the rest of the decade, and late 1941 found the ship in Pearl Harbor.

58 sailors lie entombed.

This Memorial is rather restricted now as was explained to me on my last visit.


Good catch on my omission of the Utah.

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
DT509er
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12/9/2022 12:59:07 PM
Quote:
The Japanese pilots were told about the status of Utah, but buck fever was rampant that day. Discipline would have cost the USN more.


Much like IJN Shoho at Coral Sea, I believe it was 13 bomb hits and 7 torpedoes that pummeled Shoho while the other ships largely escaped unscathed; at least in the region that Shoho was in.

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
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12/9/2022 8:22:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The Japanese pilots were told about the status of Utah, but buck fever was rampant that day. Discipline would have cost the USN more.


Much like IJN Shoho at Coral Sea, I believe it was 13 bomb hits and 7 torpedoes that pummeled Shoho while the other ships largely escaped unscathed; at least in the region that Shoho was in.





DT

Much like the IJN air planes, which were like flying coffins, once hit they were goners, they didn't seem to be able to repair their damaged warships at a rate the USN could, either!?

Look what happened to their Carriers at Midway!? The successful hits by the US planes in themselves wouldn't have been fatal! It was how poorly they positioned their ammo, & how much easier because of poor structure, & how bad repair situations were!?

Mean while look how the USN repaired its carriers, like Yorktown, & Enterprise, among others, making them seem like they had 9 lives!?

What say you?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
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12/9/2022 9:50:03 PM
Japanese supplies were short in critical areas, and building the Yamato twins didn't help that.
NYGiant
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12/10/2022 6:48:31 AM
On December 10, 1864, Union General William T. Sherman completes his March to the Sea when he arrives in front of Savannah, Georgia.

Since mid-November of that year, Sherman’s army had been sweeping from Atlanta across the state to the south and east towards Savannah, one of the last Confederate seaports still unoccupied by Union forces. Along the way, Sherman destroyed farms and railroads, burned storehouses, and fed his army off the land. In his own words, Sherman intended to “make Georgia howl,” a plan that was approved by President Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant, general-in-chief of the Union armies.

The city of Savannah was fortified and defended by some 10,000 Confederates under the command of General William Hardee. The Rebels flooded the rice fields around Savannah, so only a few narrow causeways provided access to the city. Sherman’s army was running low on supplies and he had not made contact with supply ships off the coast. His army had been completely cut off from the North, and only the reports of destruction provided any evidence of its whereabouts. Sherman directed General Oliver O. Howard to the coast to locate friendly ships. Howard dispatched Captain William Duncan and two comrades to contact the Union fleet, but nothing was heard of the trio for several days. Duncan located a Union gunboat that carried him to Hilton Head, South Carolina. Supply ships were sent to Savannah, and Duncan continued on to Washington, D.C.,to deliver news of the successful March to the Sea to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton.

For ten days, Hardee held out as Sherman prepared for an attack. Realizing the futility of the situation, Hardee fled the city on December 20 and slipped northward to fight another day.
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