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OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2022 7:07:42 AM
"Sherman was just looking for a beach."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2022 9:39:17 AM
More history from 7-10, December, comments!?

12-7, besides the attack on Pearl Harbor, the following occurred!?

1787 Delaware becomes the 1st state to ratify the Constitution! Now some higher ups are saying lets do away with the Constitution! Crazy?? What say you!?

1917 the US declares war on Austria-Hungary! At this time they were becoming fully involved in WWI. What say you? Better late than never??

1972 NASA's last flight to the moon! We haven't been back! Why??

2020 Chuck Yeagar passes away at 97, Comments on what he meant to aviation? Anyone???

On 12-8 check these out!?

1542 Mary Queen of Scots was born, 6 days later she is the Queen of Scotland!? Say what? Yeah sure 6 days old & she's the Queen!? Do you believe it? I don't!!! Comments anyone??

1980 John Lennon shot in NY City! Who would want to kill one of the Beatles! Sick!? What say you?

2016 Astronaut John Glenn dies at 95, later he becomes the senator from Ohio! Comments on his life?

12-9, below!

1868 the worlds first traffic light is in London! Boy I sure hate Rotories, I'm like Chevy Chase in European Vacation, once in, I can't get out!? ☺ Ill take a traffic light any day! What say you??

1958 the John Birch Society is in full swing!? I don't get it? Johnny Cash wrote a humorous song about them!? ? What's up with it? Anyone??

1998 the UN declares anti semitisim the same as racism!? Did it help??

1929 Robert Hawke Prime Minister of Australia is born! Was he a good bloke?? Any Aussie comments??

& finally 12-10, today in history?? The following happened!?

1884 Mark Twains Huckleberry Finn is released in Canada, A year later in the US!? Why Canada 1st?? Anyone??

1898 the treaty of Paris ending the Spanish American War, Did Spain make out like bandits in it? What say you? Jingo bells Jingo bells, Jingo all the way?? ☺

1901 Alfred Noble the inventor of dynamite started the Noble Peace Prize!? Yeah sure! What say you??

1948 the UN adopts the Declaration of Human Rights! What countries refuse to follow them? Anyone??

Again lots to discuss here!?
Regards,
MD



----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2022 4:48:20 PM
Quote:
1884 Mark Twains Huckleberry Finn is released in Canada, A year later in the US!? Why Canada 1st?? Anyone??


It was a business decision. By law he had to be present in Canada to assure his copyright on the novel. If he had released it in the US first the Canadian and British markets would have been flooded with pirate copies. Canadian publishers had been lifting Twain's work from newspapers and serials and selling them as original Twain work but with no royalties paid to Twain.

So Twain and another author came to Toronto in Dec. of 1884 to give a series of lectures. As we know, Twain was in demand as a speaker and his "shows" were much more than a lecture series.

He did that so that he would have the protection of Canadian copyright. And he travelled to the UK for the same reason, to release work that would be protected by British copyright meaning that Canadian and British publishers could not flood the US market with pirate copies.

The following article indicates that Twain was obsessed with copyright and he demanded legislation in the US that would toughen copyright laws which Twain saw as weak. US copyright laws would only protect a piece of work for 40 years after which the protection disappeared and so would the royalties on his books. Twain intended that his family would benefit from his writing long after he was gone.

My post is a synopsis of the article. There is more information about Twain and his visit to Canada in the article.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2022 4:54:36 PM
Quote:
1898 the treaty of Paris ending the Spanish American War, Did Spain make out like bandits in it? What say you? Jingo bells Jingo bells, Jingo all the way??


No, Spain lost nearly all of its North American and Pacific properties to the US. Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, Philippines. Have I missed any?

This was US imperialism at work giving the US control of the Caribbean and expanded its influence in the Pacific. Very important for creating a trade advantage for US companies.

Certainly the seizure of these territories was beyond the scope and intent of Manifest Destiny.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/10/2022 8:30:05 PM
Congress approved the war on the condition that we didn't add any territory to the US. So we took the territories into "protective custody". PI and Cuba were granted independence once they got used to that whole democracy thing.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2022 6:32:43 AM
Germany declares war on the United States.

Adolf Hitler declares war on the United States, bringing America, which had been neutral, into the European conflict.

The bombing of Pearl Harbor surprised even Germany. Although Hitler had made an oral agreement with his Axis partner Japan that Germany would join a war against the United States, he was uncertain as to how the war would be engaged. Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor answered that question. On December 8, Japanese Ambassador Oshima went to German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop to nail the Germans down on a formal declaration of war against America. Von Ribbentrop stalled for time; he knew that Germany was under no obligation to do this under the terms of the Tripartite Pact, which promised help if Japan was attacked, but not if Japan was the aggressor. Von Ribbentrop feared that the addition of another antagonist, the United States, would overwhelm the German war effort.



But Hitler thought otherwise. He was convinced that the United States would soon beat him to the punch and declare war on Germany. The U.S. Navy was already attacking German U-boats, and Hitler despised Roosevelt for his repeated verbal attacks against his Nazi ideology. He also believed that Japan was much stronger than it was, that once it had defeated the United States, it would turn and help Germany defeat Russia. So at 3:30 p.m. (Berlin time) on December 11, the German charge d’affaires in Washington handed American Secretary of State Cordell Hull a copy of the declaration of war.

That very same day, Hitler addressed the Reichstag to defend the declaration. The failure of the New Deal, argued Hitler, was the real cause of the war, as President Roosevelt, supported by plutocrats and Jews, attempted to cover up for the collapse of his economic agenda. “First he incites war, then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy and slowly but surely leads mankind to war,” declared Hitler—and the Reichstag leaped to their feet in thunderous applause.​
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2022 8:06:21 AM
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1941/1941_Documents_relating_to_World_War_II.html

HITLER ANNOUNCED TO THE REICHSTAG THE DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE UNITED STATES
December 11, 1941
MUSSOLINI'S WAR STATEMENT
Rome, December 11, 1941
THE GERMAN DECLARATION OF WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES
December 11, 1941
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2022 8:43:41 AM
Quote:
Congress approved the war on the condition that we didn't add any territory to the US. So we took the territories into "protective custody". PI and Cuba were granted independence once they got used to that whole democracy thing.


The US relationship with Cuba has been fraught with political interference and economic control of the island since the S-A War.

The Philippines rejected US control from the start. They thought that they were heading for total independence. The war that the Filipinos fought with US troops was bloody. Filipino historians still claim that the actions of US troops were genocidal.

Did members of Congress speak out against the military action taken in Cuba and Philippines?

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2022 10:19:14 AM
The out of power party will always criticize the President and the in-power party.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2022 10:43:38 AM
Hi OP,

Again I turned your website into an easy "read more", for easy access!

Thanks for the site!
All kinds of documentation!
Check it out MHO, & discuss them! ☺
MD

[Read More]

HITLER ANNOUNCED TO THE REICHSTAG THE DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE UNITED STATES
December 11, 1941
MUSSOLINI'S WAR STATEMENT
Rome, December 11, 1941
THE GERMAN DECLARATION OF WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES
December 11, 1941
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2022 3:10:05 PM
I'm using a prototype system that tracks my eyes and types a letter when I blink at it. Slow. Bells and whistles will have to wait, sorry about that.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2022 7:37:11 PM
Quote:
Germany declares war on the United States.

Adolf Hitler declares war on the United States, bringing America, which had been neutral, into the European conflict.

The bombing of Pearl Harbor surprised even Germany. Although Hitler had made an oral agreement with his Axis partner Japan that Germany would join a war against the United States, he was uncertain as to how the war would be engaged. Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor answered that question. On December 8, Japanese Ambassador Oshima went to German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop to nail the Germans down on a formal declaration of war against America. Von Ribbentrop stalled for time; he knew that Germany was under no obligation to do this under the terms of the Tripartite Pact, which promised help if Japan was attacked, but not if Japan was the aggressor. Von Ribbentrop feared that the addition of another antagonist, the United States, would overwhelm the German war effort.



But Hitler thought otherwise. He was convinced that the United States would soon beat him to the punch and declare war on Germany. The U.S. Navy was already attacking German U-boats, and Hitler despised Roosevelt for his repeated verbal attacks against his Nazi ideology. He also believed that Japan was much stronger than it was, that once it had defeated the United States, it would turn and help Germany defeat Russia. So at 3:30 p.m. (Berlin time) on December 11, the German charge d’affaires in Washington handed American Secretary of State Cordell Hull a copy of the declaration of war.

That very same day, Hitler addressed the Reichstag to defend the declaration. The failure of the New Deal, argued Hitler, was the real cause of the war, as President Roosevelt, supported by plutocrats and Jews, attempted to cover up for the collapse of his economic agenda. “First he incites war, then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy and slowly but surely leads mankind to war,” declared Hitler—and the Reichstag leaped to their feet in thunderous applause.​



What a mistake!? Germany is all ready fighting a massive 2 front war, against multi European nations, including Russia now your also.going to fight Industrial Giant, the US!? Really smart!? What say you??

Comments anyone??
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/11/2022 9:33:18 PM
Quote:
… Hitler declares war on the United States, bringing America, which had been neutral, into the European conflict.
So we half-describe one of the oddest focal points of WW2.

America, I keep hearing in certain contexts, was neutral. America, I keep hearing in other contexts, was not neutral in any way. It was simply not their war. America, some other folk keep nagging, was facing a cultural battle or two; or was facing an inconvenient election cycle which replaced political inclination with electoral necessity. Even with FDR’s 3rd term re-election, his ability to increase bonds with Western Allies (and, through Lend-Lease, Soviet Russia) were under pressure. For the most part, he handled alliances with Europe extremely well. By the time of Pearl Harbor the US was committed to Lend-Lease (including support for Russia), massive USN patrols ranging from south (at least Bermuda) to north (say, Iceland). Point (without pesky fact!)? How could this be seen as a neutral stance by a neutral nation?

Hitler was, at least until later in the war, a realist. He could read the importance of Argentia Bay; he could understand the impact of Lend-Lease; he could recognize the inherent danger in attacking USN ships which were nevertheless were attacking U-boats “passively”. He knew he was at war the US under their fraudulent activities. I’m pretty certain he would have laughed were he told Americans honestly believed they were neutral.

There are hosts of other issue which can be discussed without any conclusion, each growing out of FDR’s speech or out of PH.

Sorry, I gotta go. Been down with (and largely incapacitated by) some form of the flu for 7 days; I’m told it could last another 2 weeks. Get your shots, folks!

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2022 4:04:56 AM
Get well soon, Brian.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2022 6:52:34 AM
This day in History....

During the battle for Nanking in the Sino-Japanese War, the U.S. gunboat Panay is attacked and sunk by Japanese warplanes in Chinese waters. The American vessel, neutral in the Chinese-Japanese conflict, was escorting U.S. evacuees and three Standard Oil barges away from Nanking, the war-torn Chinese capital on the Yangtze River. After the Panay was sunk, the Japanese fighters machine-gunned lifeboats and survivors huddling on the shore of the Yangtze. Two U.S. sailors and a civilian passenger were killed and 11 personnel seriously wounded, setting off a major crisis in U.S.-Japanese relations.

Although the Panay‘s position had been reported to the Japanese as required, the neutral vessel was clearly marked, and the day was sunny and clear, the Japanese maintained that the attack was unintentional, and they agreed to pay $2 million in reparations. Two neutral British vessels were also attacked by the Japanese in the final days of the battle for Nanking.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2022 8:38:57 AM
Quote:
Quote:
… Hitler declares war on the United States, bringing America, which had been neutral, into the European conflict.
So we half-describe one of the oddest focal points of WW2.

America, I keep hearing in certain contexts, was neutral. America, I keep hearing in other contexts, was not neutral in any way. It was simply not their war. America, some other folk keep nagging, was facing a cultural battle or two; or was facing an inconvenient election cycle which replaced political inclination with electoral necessity. Even with FDR’s 3rd term re-election, his ability to increase bonds with Western Allies (and, through Lend-Lease, Soviet Russia) were under pressure. For the most part, he handled alliances with Europe extremely well. By the time of Pearl Harbor the US was committed to Lend-Lease (including support for Russia), massive USN patrols ranging from south (at least Bermuda) to north (say, Iceland). Point (without pesky fact!)? How could this be seen as a neutral stance by a neutral nation?

Hitler was, at least until later in the war, a realist. He could read the importance of Argentia Bay; he could understand the impact of Lend-Lease; he could recognize the inherent danger in attacking USN ships which were nevertheless were attacking U-boats “passively”. He knew he was at war the US under their fraudulent activities. I’m pretty certain he would have laughed were he told Americans honestly believed they were neutral.

There are hosts of other issue which can be discussed without any conclusion, each growing out of FDR’s speech or out of PH.

Sorry, I gotta go. Been down with (and largely incapacitated by) some form of the flu for 7 days; I’m told it could last another 2 weeks. Get your shots, folks!

Cheers
Brian G



Hi Brian,

I have to compliment you, you always have a different, yet intelligent perspective on history! I enjoy it, mostly I find myself saying, "I never looked at it that way", yeah but I can see it, & it makes a lot of sense! ☺

Take care, & get back to 100%,
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2022 9:17:56 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1884 Mark Twains Huckleberry Finn is released in Canada, A year later in the US!? Why Canada 1st?? Anyone??


It was a business decision. By law he had to be present in Canada to assure his copyright on the novel. If he had released it in the US first the Canadian and British markets would have been flooded with pirate copies. Canadian publishers had been lifting Twain's work from newspapers and serials and selling them as original Twain work but with no royalties paid to Twain.

So Twain and another author came to Toronto in Dec. of 1884 to give a series of lectures. As we know, Twain was in demand as a speaker and his "shows" were much more than a lecture series.

He did that so that he would have the protection of Canadian copyright. And he travelled to the UK for the same reason, to release work that would be protected by British copyright meaning that Canadian and British publishers could not flood the US market with pirate copies.

The following article indicates that Twain was obsessed with copyright and he demanded legislation in the US that would toughen copyright laws which Twain saw as weak. US copyright laws would only protect a piece of work for 40 years after which the protection disappeared and so would the royalties on his books. Twain intended that his family would benefit from his writing long after he was gone.

My post is a synopsis of the article. There is more information about Twain and his visit to Canada in the article.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George



Hi George,

Thanks for the informative reply, also great website on Twain in Canada! You gotta love Twains works!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2022 11:55:33 AM
Get well soon Brian!

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2022 7:06:14 PM
Quote:
More history from 7-10, December, comments!?

12-7, besides the attack on Pearl Harbor, the following occurred!?

1787 Delaware becomes the 1st state to ratify the Constitution! Now some higher ups are saying lets do away with the Constitution! Crazy?? What say you!?

1917 the US declares war on Austria-Hungary! At this time they were becoming fully involved in WWI. What say you? Better late than never??

1972 NASA's last flight to the moon! We haven't been back! Why??

2020 Chuck Yeagar passes away at 97, Comments on what he meant to aviation? Anyone???

On 12-8 check these out!?

1542 Mary Queen of Scots was born, 6 days later she is the Queen of Scotland!? Say what? Yeah sure 6 days old & she's the Queen!? Do you believe it? I don't!!! Comments anyone??

1980 John Lennon shot in NY City! Who would want to kill one of the Beatles! Sick!? What say you?

2016 Astronaut John Glenn dies at 95, later he becomes the senator from Ohio! Comments on his life?

12-9, below!

1868 the worlds first traffic light is in London! Boy I sure hate Rotories, I'm like Chevy Chase in European Vacation, once in, I can't get out!? ☺ Ill take a traffic light any day! What say you??

1958 the John Birch Society is in full swing!? I don't get it? Johnny Cash wrote a humorous song about them!? ? What's up with it? Anyone??

1998 the UN declares anti semitisim the same as racism!? Did it help??

1929 Robert Hawke Prime Minister of Australia is born! Was he a good bloke?? Any Aussie comments??

& finally 12-10, today in history?? The following happened!?

1884 Mark Twains Huckleberry Finn is released in Canada, A year later in the US!? Why Canada 1st?? Anyone?? Thanks George!

1898 the treaty of Paris ending the Spanish American War, Did Spain make out like bandits in it? What say you? Jingo bells Jingo bells, Jingo all the way?? ☺

1901 Alfred Noble the inventor of dynamite started the Noble Peace Prize!? Yeah sure! What say you??

1948 the UN adopts the Declaration of Human Rights! What countries refuse to follow them? Anyone??

Again lots to discuss here!?
Regards,
MD

Also 12-13 in history,

1862 the battle of Fredericksburg is fought, the Union sent charge after charge up the heights above the town! All of them unsuccessful, & bloody! How stupid of Union General.Burnside to continue this bloodshed! He should have been convicted of mass murder!? The ANV lead by Lee won the battle for the Confederates!? Comments on any justification by Burnsides?? Anyone?

2003, Iraq's dictator, Saddam Hussein is captured in a miniature hole in the ground by US troops! What ultimately happened to this slimy dog!? Any websites or comments??

Size the day!


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/12/2022 8:46:08 PM
Sadam was in a "spider hole", to use the proper military parlance.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/13/2022 8:19:05 AM
The Battle of Fredericksburg...

On December 13, 1862, Confederate General Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia repulses a series of attacks by General Ambrose Burnside’s Army of the Potomac at Fredericksburg, Virginia. The defeat was one of the most decisive loses for the Union army, and it dealt a serious blow to Northern morale in the winter of 1862-63.

Burnside assumed command of the Army of the Potomac in November 1862 after George McClellan failed to pursue Lee into Virginia following the Battle of Antietam in Maryland on September 17. Burnside immediately crafted a plan to move against the Confederate capital at Richmond, Virginia. This called for a rapid march by the Federals from their positions in northern Virginia to Fredericksburg on the Rappahannock River. Burnside planned to cross the river at that point and then continue south.

The campaign began promisingly for the Union. The army moved quickly down the Rappahannock, but then stalled across the river from Fredericksburg. Due to poor execution of orders, a pontoon bridge was not in place for several days. The delay allowed Lee to move his troops into place along Marye’s Heights above Fredericksburg. The Confederates were secure in a sunken road protected by a stone wall, looking down on the open slopes that stretched from the edge of Fredericksburg. So strong was the Confederate position that one Rebel officer claimed “a chicken could not live on that field when we open on it.”

Burnside decided to attack anyway. On December 13, he hurled 14 attacks against the Confederate lines. Although the Union artillery was effective against the Rebels, the 600-yard field was a killing ground for the attacking Yankees. No Union soldiers reached the wall at the top of Marye’s Heights, and few even came within50 yards of it. “It is well that war is so horrible, or else we should grow too fond of it,” Lee observed to General James Longstreet as they watched the carnage. A bitterly cold night froze many of the Union dead and wounded.

Burnside considered continuing the attack on December 14, but his subordinates urged him to stop. On December 15, a truce was called for the Union to collect their dead and wounded soldiers. Burnside retreated northward under the cover of darkness and rain. The one-sided nature of the battle was reflected in the casualty figures. The Yankees suffered around 12,650 killed and wounded, while Lee lost only about 4,200 men. General Joseph Hooker replaced Burnside as commander of the Army of the Potomac in January 1863.
================================================== ================================================== ================================================

This is a nice battlefield to visit. Some of it has been lost to urban development, but the field where the Irish Brigade was sacrificed still remains. If you do go on a tour, make sure you get to see the Swale and the Mill Race.

The Swale is no longer as prominent as it once was, because of road construction and urban development. But parts of it do exist and you have to look for it.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/13/2022 8:42:04 AM
Quote:
The Battle of Fredericksburg...

On December 13, 1862, Confederate General Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia repulses a series of attacks by General Ambrose Burnside’s Army of the Potomac at Fredericksburg, Virginia. The defeat was one of the most decisive loses for the Union army, and it dealt a serious blow to Northern morale in the winter of 1862-63.

Burnside assumed command of the Army of the Potomac in November 1862 after George McClellan failed to pursue Lee into Virginia following the Battle of Antietam in Maryland on September 17. Burnside immediately crafted a plan to move against the Confederate capital at Richmond, Virginia. This called for a rapid march by the Federals from their positions in northern Virginia to Fredericksburg on the Rappahannock River. Burnside planned to cross the river at that point and then continue south.

The campaign began promisingly for the Union. The army moved quickly down the Rappahannock, but then stalled across the river from Fredericksburg. Due to poor execution of orders, a pontoon bridge was not in place for several days. The delay allowed Lee to move his troops into place along Marye’s Heights above Fredericksburg. The Confederates were secure in a sunken road protected by a stone wall, looking down on the open slopes that stretched from the edge of Fredericksburg. So strong was the Confederate position that one Rebel officer claimed “a chicken could not live on that field when we open on it.”

Burnside decided to attack anyway. On December 13, he hurled 14 attacks against the Confederate lines. Although the Union artillery was effective against the Rebels, the 600-yard field was a killing ground for the attacking Yankees. No Union soldiers reached the wall at the top of Marye’s Heights, and few even came within50 yards of it. “It is well that war is so horrible, or else we should grow too fond of it,” Lee observed to General James Longstreet as they watched the carnage. A bitterly cold night froze many of the Union dead and wounded.

Burnside considered continuing the attack on December 14, but his subordinates urged him to stop. On December 15, a truce was called for the Union to collect their dead and wounded soldiers. Burnside retreated northward under the cover of darkness and rain. The one-sided nature of the battle was reflected in the casualty figures. The Yankees suffered around 12,650 killed and wounded, while Lee lost only about 4,200 men. General Joseph Hooker replaced Burnside as commander of the Army of the Potomac in January 1863.


Guys,

This has to be one of the most stupid attacks of the whole Civil War! Imagine giving Robert E. Lee days to prepare a battlefield, & then attacking the strongest fortified high ground! Not once but 14 times!? Lincoln could not remove Burnside fast enough!! I guess after Picket's charge at Gettysburg the victorious Union Army chanted Fredericksburg! Fredericksburg! Is this true?? Also the Civil war Trust is live doing a special presentations on the anniversary, live from the battlefield! Perhaps some one could put the website up as a "read more"? Or you can Google it on youtube!??

Pure madness!
What say you??
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/13/2022 12:38:24 PM
Burnside attempted to rally his demoralized army for a second offensive, but the plan—later known as the Mud March—was thwarted by heavy rains and failed to materialize. Believing that his officers had been insubordinate during the campaign, Burnside asked Lincoln to either relieve several generals from duty or accept his resignation. Lincoln chose to remove Burnside from command, replacing him with General Joseph Hooker in January 1863.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/13/2022 3:39:48 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The Battle of Fredericksburg...

On December 13, 1862, Confederate General Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia repulses a series of attacks by General Ambrose Burnside’s Army of the Potomac at Fredericksburg, Virginia. The defeat was one of the most decisive loses for the Union army, and it dealt a serious blow to Northern morale in the winter of 1862-63.

Burnside assumed command of the Army of the Potomac in November 1862 after George McClellan failed to pursue Lee into Virginia following the Battle of Antietam in Maryland on September 17. Burnside immediately crafted a plan to move against the Confederate capital at Richmond, Virginia. This called for a rapid march by the Federals from their positions in northern Virginia to Fredericksburg on the Rappahannock River. Burnside planned to cross the river at that point and then continue south.

The campaign began promisingly for the Union. The army moved quickly down the Rappahannock, but then stalled across the river from Fredericksburg. Due to poor execution of orders, a pontoon bridge was not in place for several days. The delay allowed Lee to move his troops into place along Marye’s Heights above Fredericksburg. The Confederates were secure in a sunken road protected by a stone wall, looking down on the open slopes that stretched from the edge of Fredericksburg. So strong was the Confederate position that one Rebel officer claimed “a chicken could not live on that field when we open on it.”

Burnside decided to attack anyway. On December 13, he hurled 14 attacks against the Confederate lines. Although the Union artillery was effective against the Rebels, the 600-yard field was a killing ground for the attacking Yankees. No Union soldiers reached the wall at the top of Marye’s Heights, and few even came within50 yards of it. “It is well that war is so horrible, or else we should grow too fond of it,” Lee observed to General James Longstreet as they watched the carnage. A bitterly cold night froze many of the Union dead and wounded.

Burnside considered continuing the attack on December 14, but his subordinates urged him to stop. On December 15, a truce was called for the Union to collect their dead and wounded soldiers. Burnside retreated northward under the cover of darkness and rain. The one-sided nature of the battle was reflected in the casualty figures. The Yankees suffered around 12,650 killed and wounded, while Lee lost only about 4,200 men. General Joseph Hooker replaced Burnside as commander of the Army of the Potomac in January 1863.


Guys,

This has to be one of the most stupid attacks of the whole Civil War! Imagine giving Robert E. Lee days to prepare a battlefield, & then attacking the strongest fortified high ground! Not once but 14 times!? Lincoln could not remove Burnside fast enough!! I guess after Picket's charge at Gettysburg the victorious Union Army chanted Fredericksburg! Fredericksburg! Is this true?? Also the Civil war Trust is live doing a special presentations on the anniversary, live from the battlefield! Perhaps some one could put the website up as a "read more"? Or you can Google it on youtube!??

Pure madness!
What say you??
MD


Not such a one sided affair when the less well known part of the fighting is considered.

There was a major battle on the confederate right, too, in which the yankees made progress and gave the rebels a rough time.

People think of the slaughter of the bluecoats at Marye’s Heights, and with good reason , with a six or seven fold disparity of bloodshed in favour of the South. On the other wing of the federal attack, it was close to parity.

Burnside was badly served by the administration in Washington, and was pressured into making a desperate attack after having been deprived of the pontoon material he’d been requesting.

Significantly, Burnside retained the affection and respect of his soldiers.

A discordant note I’m striking here, but I think he’s worthy of some sympathy.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 6:32:21 AM
On this day in US History....

On December 14, 2012, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, Adam Lanza kills 20 first graders and six school employees before turning a gun on himself. Earlier that day, he killed his mother at the home they shared.

The Sandy Hook shooting was, at the time, the second-deadliest mass shooting in the United States after the 2007 shooting at Virginia Tech, in which a gunman killed 32 students and teachers before committing suicide.

Shortly after 9:30 a.m., 20-year-old Adam Lanza shot through a plate-glass window next to Sandy Hook’s locked front entrance in order to gain access to the school. Hearing the noise, the school principal and school psychologist went to investigate and were shot and killed by Lanza, who was armed with a semiautomatic rifle, two semiautomatic pistols and multiple rounds of ammunition. Lanza also shot and wounded two other Sandy Hook staff members.

He then entered two first-grade classrooms, where he gunned down two teachers and 15 students in one room and two teachers and five students in the other room. The children Lanza murdered, 12 girls and 8 boys, were 6 and 7 years old. Twelve first-graders from the two classrooms survived.

When Lanza heard the police closing in on him, he killed himself in a classroom at approximately 9:40 a.m.

Police soon learned that sometime earlier that morning, before arriving at Sandy Hook, Lanza had shot and killed his 52-year-old mother at their home. She owned the weapons her son used in his deadly rampage.



Investigators determined that Lanza, who had attended Sandy Hook as a boy, acted alone in planning and carrying out the attack, but they were unable to find a motive for his actions or discover why he had targeted Sandy Hook.

In November 2013, the Connecticut State’s Attorney released a report noting that Lanza had “significant mental health issues that affected his ability to live a normal life and to interact with others.” However, mental-health professionals who had worked with him “did not see anything that would have predicted his future behavior,” according to the report.

In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook shooting, President Barack Obamacalled for new gun-safety measures; however, his primary legislative goal, expanded background checks for gun buyers, was blocked by the U.S. Senate.

The community of Newtown, which has some 27,000 residents and is located about 45 miles southwest of Connecticut’s capital, Hartford, eventually decided to tear down Sandy Hook Elementary School. It was razed in the fall of 2013; a new school was built on the same site.
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Thoughts and prayers did nothing to stop the gun assaults against school children. Finally, Joe Biden was able to reach across the aisle to get into Law significant legislation against this epidemic of gun violence in the United States.

The 2nd Amendment was written by a Southerner, in order to allow the militia to put down slave rebellions and insurrections, something the South was afraid of. The documentation of this fear of a slave uprising pre-dates any British Army occupation of any Colonial city. And the 2nd Amendment does not allow any citizen to take up arms to overthrow the duly elected Government. The Founding Fathers never intended that. They did give us a way to change the Government..it's called the right to vote.

morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 9:04:51 AM
Well, this southerner will educate the ignorant then: This was caused by a mental illness that was not detected, according to the "experts" you mentioned, who said he was not capable of living a normal life. If my memory serves me, the weapons he had were legally purchased, with background checks and with his mother`s consent ( I can`t remember if she bought them or not.)

Your standard disrespect of "thought and prayers" shows an ignorance of what that even means. Mankind has choices to make...prayers do not stop mentally ill, or deranged individuals from making horrible and disgusting choices. What could help with that? Well, about 50 percent of violent crimes in this country are carried out by about 3.5 percent of our population...mostly young black males, raised in poverty, no father in the home...some even raised by aging grandparents. The majority of so called "mass shootings" three or more people shot at one time, is done by this category. In places like Chicago, it is a slow week if less than 60 or so are shot...and a dozen killed. And virtually every single gun is illegally obtained. In addition, how many mass shootings have we witnessed where background checks had been done...and the killer was able to legally obtain the murder weapon?

Thoughts and prayers may not mean much to you....but they work about as well as the "gun laws" that really only serve to take away second amendment rights of the people to defend themselves due to the "de-funding of police shit that so many ridiculously favored at one time.

I would remind you, the Columbine mass shootings occurred right slap dab in the very middle of the assault weapons ban that Biden supported in the 1990`s. It was a ten year ban...Columbine was in year five., and none of the weapons used fell under the "assault weapon" descriptions.

Facts are pesky things sometimes...as you like to say.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 9:06:11 AM
Checking out 12-14 in history,

1503 Astrologer Nostradamus was born! He also was a Seer! What the hell is a Seer? Anyone??

1568 the Casket letters were found to be damaging to Mary Queen of Scots! Why did Elizabeth I have it in for Mary?? Cat fight! Cat fight!?? What say you??

1799 George Washington the father of the US dies at age 67! What made him rise to be such a great man?? Anyone??

1911 Ronald Amundsen is the 1st man at the South Pole, why did he succeed where Scott tragically failed?? What say you?? Also believe Kai said one of his relatives from back then was with Amundsen!? Not sure about that??

1936 George VI becomes King of England taking over for his scandalous brother Edward VIII, remember the movie "the Kings Speech" tells this story! What say you on why George VI was just what England needed at this time in history, & his brother, left wanting?? What's the story?

1960 the US, Canada, & much of Europe sign an economic treaty! How did this help their economies?? Comments anyone?

Some good topics!?
Regards,
MD

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
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This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 9:18:37 AM
Quote:
1960 the US, Canada, & much of Europe sign an economic treaty! How did this help their economies?? Comments anyone?


Which treaty was that, MD? Was it GATT?

The US and Canada signing of the Auto Pact deal wasn't until 1965 and that integrated the industry in the US and Canada.

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 9:37:23 AM
Quote:
Well, this southerner will educate the ignorant then: This was caused by a mental illness that was not detected, according to the "experts" you mentioned, who said he was not capable of living a normal life. If my memory serves me, the weapons he had were legally purchased, with background checks and with his mother`s consent ( I can`t remember if she bought them or not.)

Your standard disrespect of "thought and prayers" shows an ignorance of what that even means. Mankind has choices to make...prayers do not stop mentally ill, or deranged individuals from making horrible and disgusting choices. What could help with that? Well, about 50 percent of violent crimes in this country are carried out by about 3.5 percent of our population...mostly young black males, raised in poverty, no father in the home...some even raised by aging grandparents. The majority of so called "mass shootings" three or more people shot at one time, is done by this category. In places like Chicago, it is a slow week if less than 60 or so are shot...and a dozen killed. And virtually every single gun is illegally obtained. In addition, how many mass shootings have we witnessed where background checks had been done...and the killer was able to legally obtain the murder weapon?

Thoughts and prayers may not mean much to you....but they work about as well as the "gun laws" that really only serve to take away second amendment rights of the people to defend themselves due to the "de-funding of police shit that so many ridiculously favored at one time.

I would remind you, the Columbine mass shootings occurred right slap dab in the very middle of the assault weapons ban that Biden supported in the 1990`s. It was a ten year ban...Columbine was in year five., and none of the weapons used fell under the "assault weapon" descriptions.

Facts are pesky things sometimes...as you like to say.

Respects, Morris



This massacre of innocent children was caused by easy access to firearms. No guns...no massacre.

Offering Thoughts and prayers do nothing to stop these massacres. And the canard offered by the NRA , that only a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun , has been proven to be wrong since the Police failed to act at Columbine, or Parkland or Uvalde.

Loopholes in the laws that regulate guns are the reasons why illicit gun trafficking causes gun violence in our big cities. Recall that White guys were responsible for the gun massacres at Sandy Hook, Columbine, Parkland, Uvalde, Las Vegas, Charleston SC and the Pittsburg synagogue massacres. Christ, I don't even have to look then up any more.

The 2nd Amendment is an anachronism. We no longer need a militia to put down slave insurrections and rebellions.

I might remind you that gun massacres have increased since the assault weapons ban ended.


Don't you hate it when the pesky facts get in the pesky way?








morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
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This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 10:34:39 AM
And I might remind you...that the majority of the sheer numbers of mass shootings are not school shootings....but three or more shot at one time...which happens dozens of times a day in this country.


The inaccuracy of what you claim to know is also staggering. James Madison authored the Second Amendment because, as most of our framers, he was suspicious of a government with a standing army. How is it possible to imagine that someone that distrusting of government power...would want to disarm the people? Protection against a tyrannical government if the very reason for the Bill of Rights.

And if it was intended to apply to members of the militia only...then these men would have written " the privilege of the militia members to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." That is not what they wrote. These were men who read text of literature in Latin, French, in the original language. They were a lot smarter than you or I, and they knew the power of words quite well. They removed the phrase "life, liberty and PROPERTY" from the Declaration because they knew property would be interpreted to mean slaves. They changed the wording to "and the pursuit of happiness."

The actual text that was written is " ....the RIGHT of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." A right...not a privilege. A right, such as self defense, is a natural right...a right that comes from God...or nature`s God...not from government largess. To assume that men of that time, many of whom lived in the wilderness of America ,who knew that the hunting of game alone was an important and necessary reason for such a right to bear arms....is , well you know what happens to foolish assumptions.

It is a right...because they clearly call it that! To argue over a comma is worthy of ridicule.
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RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 712
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This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 2:29:06 PM
Quote:
And I might remind you...that the majority of the sheer numbers of mass shootings are not school shootings....but three or more shot at one time...which happens dozens of times a day in this country.


Morris, with all due respect, you say that like it is a good thing.

Quote:
The inaccuracy of what you claim to know is also staggering. James Madison authored the Second Amendment because, as most of our framers, he was suspicious of a government with a standing army. How is it possible to imagine that someone that distrusting of government power...would want to disarm the people? Protection against a tyrannical government if the very reason for the Bill of Rights.


To be precise, the amendment that Madison authored was:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

That was not considered satisfactory, so it was first rewritten as:

A well armed and well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People, being the best security of a free country, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

Still not being satisfied, the Constitutional Congress further modified the language, at one point qualifying that the "well regulated militia" should also be "trained to arms" and arguing over the religious deferment until they got to:

A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People, being the best security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.

Then after further debate it became the well known and simpler:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Quote:
And if it was intended to apply to members of the militia only...


What makes this all so interesting is that very few now seem to realize that the notion of an individual right to bear arms was never in question and was always implicitly assumed by all the delegates. There was never any debate regarding a necessity to embody an individual right or any strictures to the right to bear arms in the Constitution.

Quote:
then these men would have written " the privilege of the militia members to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." That is not what they wrote.


No and nothing like that because there was never an assumption that the individual right to bear arms for legal purposes needed protecting from infringement.

Quote:
These were men who read text of literature in Latin, French, in the original language. They were a lot smarter than you or I, and they knew the power of words quite well. They removed the phrase "life, liberty and PROPERTY" from the Declaration because they knew property would be interpreted to mean slaves. They changed the wording to "and the pursuit of happiness."


In Constitutional arguments you need to beware of taking examples from the Declaration of Independence and applying them to the Constitution. Different authors, different intent, different result.

Quote:
The actual text that was written is " ....the RIGHT of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." A right...not a privilege. A right, such as self defense, is a natural right...a right that comes from God...or nature`s God...not from government largess. To assume that men of that time, many of whom lived in the wilderness of America ,who knew that the hunting of game alone was an important and necessary reason for such a right to bear arms....is , well you know what happens to foolish assumptions.


Yes, because they understood that the individual right already existed and was regulated by common law. However, all of the various State legislation that preceded and informed the Constitutional delegates were predicated on the corporate rather than the individual right to bear arms - protecting the States rights to form militias. As in:

Virginia, (June 12, 1776) 13. That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided, as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

Delaware, (September 11, 1776) 18. That a well-regulated militia is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free government.

Pennsylvania, (September 28, 1776) XIII. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

Maryland, (November 11, 1776) XXV. That a well-regulated militia is the proper and natural defence of a free government.

North Carolina, (December 18, 1776) XVII. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under the strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

Vermont, (July 8, 1777) XV. That the people have the right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State …

Massachusetts, (October 25, 1780) XVII. The people have a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence.

New Hampshire, (June 2, 1784) XXIV. A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a state.

Quote:
It is a right...because they clearly call it that! To argue over a comma is worthy of ridicule.


Indeed, but conflating legislation so clearly designed to protect the State's right to form militias as a counterbalance to the Federal government's right to form a Regular standing army to be legislation protecting an individual citizen's right to bear arms against the State or Federal government, which is what some extremists have avowed, is equally worthy of ridicule. Note that the Supreme Court decisions such as District of Columbia v. Heller do hold that the individual right is implicit in the Constitution but the individual right "is not unlimited" and that "nothing in [the] opinion should be taken to cast doubt" on "longstanding prohibitions" like "laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings," among other "preemptively lawful" regulations.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
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This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 3:21:05 PM

Rich...I don`t understand why you would suggest I said that as a good thing. NY said that most all school shootings are done by white guys....but most of the other "mass shootings" as defined by the FBI are not...and that makes up the majority of such shootings. Most of these are down with the use of illegally owned firearms, ( and not long guns, but handguns) and most of the times a shooting occurs...and there is the monotonous call for " more gun laws"...those proposed laws would not do anything to stop them from happening.
Nothing good about it!

That said, if we want to end the violence that is sweeping this country, not just the use of guns...but all violence, then we better get serious about the root causes of it, and stop being so PC. And limiting further the ability for responsible and lawful citizens to have arms for self-defense is not the answer for less violence...but for more. Disarming the potential victims...while having laws that will continue to be ignored by the lawless makes no sense at all.

Most of your post I won`t argue with...except to say that the term "well regulated" was a term used at that time to mean "well trained."

Respects, Morris

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RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 712
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/14/2022 5:27:52 PM
Quote:

Rich...I don`t understand why you would suggest I said that as a good thing. NY said that most all school shootings are done by white guys....but most of the other "mass shootings" as defined by the FBI are not...and that makes up the majority of such shootings. Most of these are down with the use of illegally owned firearms, ( and not long guns, but handguns) and most of the times a shooting occurs...and there is the monotonous call for " more gun laws"...those proposed laws would not do anything to stop them from happening.
Nothing good about it!


Glad you clarified that although now you appear to be falling into the "race" fallacy. In 2020 roughly 45,222 gun deaths were recorded in the US...slightly more than a 0.000136 rate for the entire nation. The incidence rate for white Americans was 0.000116 and for black Americans it was 0.000318 but you have to remember the populations are vastly different. There were 204.3 million whites and 46.9 million blacks in the population, so roughly 23,700 white and 14,900 black gun deaths. Yes, proportionately more gun deaths occur in black and Hispanic ethnic communities but that does not change to overall demographic - the United States suffers gun deaths at a much higher rate than any other first world nation on earth.

Quote:
That said, if we want to end the violence that is sweeping this country, not just the use of guns...but all violence, then we better get serious about the root causes of it, and stop being so PC. And limiting further the ability for responsible and lawful citizens to have arms for self-defense is not the answer for less violence...but for more. Disarming the potential victims...while having laws that will continue to be ignored by the lawless makes no sense at all.


Sadly that is a mythical solution. Despite so many states having concealed and open carry laws the incidence of gun crimes prevented or stopped by "good guys with guns" is minute. Although bystanders stop active shooters targeting crowds in public perhaps 16% of the time, the armed citizen may only account for a third of those incidents and out of 434 recorded active shootings only in 24 of the cases were the perpetrators stopped by a gun armed civilian.

Oh, and in 2020 there were "only" 40 active shooter incidents in the United States involving 42 shooters of whom 2 were killed by civilians, 4 by law enforcement, and 7 by suicide, while they killed 38 and wounded 164. Active shooter incidents, be they school shootings or not get publicity but aren't really the problem.

Quote:
Most of your post I won`t argue with...except to say that the term "well regulated" was a term used at that time to mean "well trained."


Indeed, and as I mentioned the authors of the amendment waffled back and forth as to how they would express it.
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2022 6:48:36 AM
On this day in US History....Following ratification by the state of Virginia, the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution, known collectively as the Bill of Rights, become the law of the land.

In September 1789, the first Congress of the United States approved 12 amendments to the U.S. Constitution and sent them to the states for ratification. The amendments were designed to protect the basic rights of U.S. citizens, guaranteeing the freedom of speech, press, assembly, and exercise of religion; the right to fair legal procedure and to bear arms; and that powers not delegated to the federal government would be reserved for the states and the people.

Influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689, the Bill of Rights was also drawn from Virginia’s Declaration of Rights, drafted by George Mason in 1776. Mason, a native Virginian, was a lifelong champion of individual liberties, and in 1787 he attended the Constitutional Convention and criticized the final document for lacking constitutional protection of basic political rights. In the ratification struggle that followed, Mason and other critics agreed to support the Constitution in exchange for the assurance that amendments would be passed immediately.

On December 15, 1791, Virginia became the 10th of 14 states to approve 10 of the 12 amendments, thus giving the Bill of Rights the majority of state ratification necessary to make it legal. Of the two amendments not ratified, the first concerned the population system of representation, while the second prohibited laws varying the payment of congressional members from taking effect until an election intervened. The first of these two amendments was never ratified, while the second was finally ratified more than 200 years later, in 1992.
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So, when someone tries to tell you that the Founding Fathers thought free speech was so important, that they made it the 1st Amendment...you can tell them they are wrong. There were 12 Amendments proposed, and the first 2 were voted down, making the 3rd proposed Amendment, the First.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
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This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2022 8:58:47 AM
Knowing my hillbilly cousins they will just quibble about what was the "real" 1st amendment.
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2022 9:43:33 AM
I just love it when the pesky facts get in the pesky way.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
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This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2022 10:10:45 AM
The first two amendments that were proposed...had nothing to do with the rights of individuals , they involved house apportionment ...the other concerned limiting congress from giving itself a pay raise.

The very first amendment that dealt with the freedoms and sacred rights of the individual was what is now freedom of speech. So, in that sense...it was the very first individual right recognized and protected by amendment.

The first amendment proposed and then ratified was freedom of speech and to peacefully address grievance and assemble and to worship as seen fit. Period.

Pesky things indeed!
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
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This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2022 10:32:09 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1960 the US, Canada, & much of Europe sign an economic treaty! How did this help their economies?? Comments anyone?


Which treaty was that, MD? Was it GATT?

The US and Canada signing of the Auto Pact deal wasn't until 1965 and that integrated the industry in the US and Canada.

George



Hi George,

No it was the OEEC, Organization for European Economic Co Operation! They just pulled the US, & Canada into it!?

Not sure what GATT is ? Elaborate??

Cheers,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2022 11:49:26 AM
Quote:
The first two amendments that were proposed...had nothing to do with the rights of individuals , they involved house apportionment ...the other concerned limiting congress from giving itself a pay raise.

The very first amendment that dealt with the freedoms and sacred rights of the individual was what is now freedom of speech. So, in that sense...it was the very first individual right recognized and protected by amendment.

The first amendment proposed and then ratified was freedom of speech and to peacefully address grievance and assemble and to worship as seen fit. Period.

Pesky things indeed!

The 1st 2 proposed Amendments were listed by the Founding Fathers....That was what was important to them. If Free Speech was the most important to them, they would have listed it first.

The First Amendment did not garner the required votes.
The 2nd Amendment did not garner the required votes.
The 3rd Amendment did garner the required number of votes, thus elevating it to became the 1st Amendment.

Pesky thing those pesky facts!

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
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This day in World History! Continued
12/15/2022 12:07:23 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

No it was the OEEC, Organization for European Economic Co Operation! They just pulled the US, & Canada into it!?

Not sure what GATT is ? Elaborate??

Cheers,
MD


The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT). It was a trade treaty signed by 23 nations but that goes back to the immediate post war era; sometime in the late '40's. It was supposed to open up trade by reducing tariffs on goods. That was supposed to rejuvenate the post war economy. We could consider it a first step toward globalization.

GATT didn't preclude the creation of separate trading blocs like the the free trade deal between the US and Canada called NAFTA (1989).

There were problems with GATT as many nations sought waivers for certain goods that they produced, allowing them to restrict foreign sales. In 1994 after years of negotiations the GATT model was revised to reflect concerns about intellectual property and to reflect growing trade in services. GATT started with 23 nations on board but by 1994, there were 128 nations adhering to the trade rules.

That 1994 deal was the end of GATT and the start of the World Trade Organization (WTO). Despite problems when countries don't get their way on trade matters there are now over 160 nations trading under the regulations set down in the WTO.


As for the OEEC, I thought that it was a post war creation that had something to do with the Marshall Plan. When I looked it up I found that 1960 was the year in which the OEEC became the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). I wouldn't say that Canada and the US were pulled into it. The OECD is an important world wide organization that seeks to improve the quality of life on the planet. Lofty goal but they undertake many practical initiatives.

I am familiar with the OECD as one of its initiatives is to improve education across the globe.

As such it administers the PISA tests to evaluate the skills and knowledge of 15 year old students across the world.

But the OECD is much more than that. This is a statement of purpose taken from the OECD:

Quote:
The OECD's vocation has been to deliver greater well-being worldwide by advising governments on policies that support resilient, inclusive and sustainable growth. Through evidence-based policy analysis and recommendations, standards and global policy networks, including close collaboration with the G7 and the G20, the OECD has helped advance reforms and multilateral solutions to global challenges. These span the public policy horizon, from the polluter pays principle, which the OECD developed in the 1970s, to PISA in education, not to mention tax transparency and artificial intelligence. Throughout its history, the OECD has striven to become more global, more inclusive and more relevant.


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Cheers,

George
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