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George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/21/2022 8:29:12 AM
Quote:
On this day in US History...

On December 21, 1891, 30-year-old James Naismith introduces the first game of basketball. Based on 13 rules created by Naismith, the game is tested by 18 students at the International Young Men’s Christian Association Training School in Springfield, Massachusetts. Two teams of nine players each compete against each other, with the objective to throw a soccer ball into a peach basket attached to a balcony 10 feet above the floor.​

In the early 1890s, Naismith—who was born in Canada—moved on from his job in Montreal as McGill University's athletic director to become a physical education teacher at the YMCA International Training School. Bored and unruly students needed an activity during difficult New England winters. So, Naismith took up another teacher's challenge to keep students in line.

“I called the boys to the gym, divided them up into teams of nine and gave them a little soccer ball,” Naismith recalled in a 1939 radio interview that aired on WOR-AM in New York City. “I showed them two peach baskets I’d nailed up at each end of the gym, and I told them the idea was to throw the ball into the opposing team’s peach basket. I blew the whistle, and the first game of basketball began.”

A jump ball was held after each made basket.

"The invention of basketball was not an accident," Naismith said. "It was developed to meet a need. Those boys simply would not play 'Drop the Handkerchief.'"



Under two different sets of rules, the first organized collegiate basketball games were played in the mid-1890s.

Naismith, who died in 1939, became the first basketball coach at Kansas University, where he led the Jayhawks from 1898-1907.



This day in Canadian history
Naismith was 29 years old before he went to the YMCA training school in Springfield. He had been an outstanding multi-sport athlete at McGill in Montréal and had graduated with a BA in Philosophy and Hebrew Studies.

This is what Naismith had to say about the first game of basketball that his class played:

Quote:
“Well, I didn’t have enough [rules] and that’s where I made my big mistake,” he said in a 1939 radio interview. “The boys began tackling, kicking and punching in the clinches. They ended up in a free-for-all in the middle of the gym floor. Before I could pull them apart, one boy was knocked out, several of them had black eyes and one had a dislocated shoulder.”


I know a little bit about designing games for PHE classes and I sympathize with him. I'm sure that his grand plan did not include injuries but PHE students, especially boys, have a way of turning a rather benign game of low organization into mayhem. Sounds as though Naismith's game went south pretty quickly as the class decided to play rugby inside the gym.

For a more detailed biography of Naismith's life, here is a piece from the Canadian Encyclopaedia

[Read More]

The man has received many accolades in his home country:



This bronze statue may be found in Naismith's home town of Almonte, Ontario



Interesting that a simple game that was designed to fulfil Naismith's course requirements has become so international in scope.

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/21/2022 8:48:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
A few topics we missed!

12-17-1874, WL Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada was born! Where did he rate as the head of state of the Great White North!? Maybe Canada's best PM!?? What say you??

1992 NAFTA was signed between US, Canada, & Mexico! Was this helpful, & fair to the Economies involved!?Comments??

12-17- 2014 the US & Cuba reestablish diplomatic relations again!? Would you say things are improving between the 2 countries?? Anyone?

& as mentioned, 12-18-1865, The 13th Amendment abolished Slavery in the US was it reeadily accepted by the South!?? What say you??

Just a few more topics!
Regards,
MD




On 12-19,, again, moving the last topics to the new page, in case you missed them??

1777 the Continental Army sintered at Valley Forge, this showed how the Patriots could stay the course even the toughest of times!? What say you?

1843 English Author, Charles Dickens published the classic, "A Christmas Carol," I have read it as well as watched most movie takes on it! It's kind of a tradition with me!? What is your favorite rendition on it? I like the 1938 version, with Reginald Owen as Scrooge! Although the 1984 take with George C Scott is not bad either!? BTW Happy Holidays! ☺

1966 the UN endorses the Outer Space Treaty! What was that all about? Anyone??

Carry on,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/21/2022 8:50:15 AM
NYG, & George,

With regards to Basketball,

I really liked Basketball, I was a bit of a gym rat growing up! Kids these day are to locked into video games!? And many are out of shape, big time!?

What say you??
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/21/2022 9:05:38 AM
Quote:
Sorry for noting a 4-day-old article. This comes from the “Science” section of NYT, dated 16 Dec 2022. It deals with the at-least partial reversal of restrictions placed on J.Robert Oppenheimer after allegations he was a threat to the US, being a socialist, communist and perhaps foreign spy. [Read More]

This 2022 rejection of the AEC findings comes largely from the release of papers declassified during the Obama administration. I’m surprised that I missed comments on 16 Dec, or that more has not been noted of this reversal. I wonder what the US may have lost because of the hearings which led to Oppenheimer’s mistreatment?

Cheers,
Brian G




Hi Brian,

J R Oppenheimer was no doubt brilliant, in a two edged sword he saved a lot of lives, but from the other side his creation took a lot also! I heard he was accused of many things? I tried to access your NYT's article on him, but another window opens, blocking my view, stating I need to buy the New York Times??

Alas!
MD

BTW, welcome to Winter Solstice! How did ancient groups celebrate it? & why? Anyone??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/21/2022 11:22:38 AM
Every backyard here in the States has a backboard and rim, every barn has a rim and backboard, and most parks have at least a court to play basketball. i played in the street with a backboard and rim attached to a telephone pole.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/21/2022 12:42:13 PM
Quote:
NYG, & George,

With regards to Basketball,

I really liked Basketball, I was a bit of a gym rat growing up! Kids these day are to locked into video games!? And many are out of shape, big time!?

What say you??
MD



When we went to a credit system in high school and demanded only one compulsory credit in HPE we saw the beginning of decreases in physical fitness. Some students will elect to take more than one credit but they do not have to do so. As I taught HPE for 31 years, I am biased but I think that we made a mistake when we made this discipline mostly elective.

As for basketball it has become wildly popular in Canada. There are many Canadians now playing in the NBA and that drives the enthusiasm for the game.

The sport is excellent for fitness purposes. I see a few hoops hung over garage doors or on a post in a driveway but I am still more likely to find kids playing pick-up road hockey rather than basketball.

I don't enjoy watching BB games very much. I find the game to be repetitive and the histrionics when someone dunks make me laugh. The hoop is exactly twice the diameter of a basketball and the player dunking the ball is often so tall and with a matching vertical leap that he is looking down at this gaping hole.

Still the players are fabulous athletes. I just wish that they could skate.
Cheers,

George

NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/22/2022 6:38:39 AM
On this day in US History...

British Prime Minister Winston Churchill arrives in Washington, D.C. for a series of meetings with President Franklin Delano Roosevelt on a unified Anglo-American war strategy and a future peace.

​Now that the United States was directly involved in both the Pacific and European wars, it was incumbent upon both Great Britain and America to create and project a unified front. Toward that end, Churchill and Roosevelt created a combined general staff to coordinate military strategy against both Germany and Japan and to draft a future joint invasion of the Continent. Roosevelt also agreed to a radical increase in the U.S. arms production program: the 12,750 operational aircraft to be ready for service by the end of 1943 became 45,000; the proposed 15,450 tanks also became 45,000; and the number of machine guns to be manufactured almost doubled, to 500,000.

Among the momentous results of these U.S.-Anglo meetings was a declaration issued by Churchill and Roosevelt that enjoined 26 signatory nations to use all resources at their disposal to defeat the Axis powers and not sue for a separate peace. This confederation called itself the “United Nations.” Lead by the United States, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union, all 26 nations declared a unified goal to “ensure life, liberty, independence and religious freedom, and to preserve the rights of man and justice.” The blueprint for the destruction of fascism and a future international peacekeeping organization was born.

================================================== ================================================== =============================================

81 years later, another leader, Zelensky, will come to the United States to address the Congress and discuss with President Biden at the White House, plans to combat the illegal invasion of Ukraine by the Russians.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/22/2022 12:49:09 PM
A few new topics for the time frame of 12-20 to 12-22! Comments & new posts welcome!??

12-20,

1860 South Carolina becomes the 1st southern state to secede from the Union! This state could not get out of the Union fast enough!? They tried even a decade before! They celebrated in Charleston like it was the happiest of days!? Instead they were in for the most terrible of a 1/2 decade ever! How could they be so wrong?? Anyone??

1968, John Steinbeck dies, Famous author of Grapes of Wrath! I hated the part where those mean guys, made the Old Man kill is dog! Also it just wasn't a cheerful story! 2 thumbs down from me!? What say you?? Comments?

1989 the US invades Panama, Operation, Just Cause! Just trying to help out!! What say you??

12-21,

1864 William Tecumseh Sherman captures Savannah, GA. Offers it to Lincoln as A Christmas present! What do you think of Sherman's march to the sea!?

1945, Gen.George Patton is killed in a Auto accident!? How in the he'll could that happen!? Anyone with details on this??

1958 Charles de Gaulle becomes President of France's 5th Republic! What was his take on the Province of Quebec, Canada!? Dr Gaulle, really a friend?? Anyone?

1988 Terrorists shoot down flite Pan Am 103 over Scotland, killing all on board! Then Lybia tried to pay the victims! What say you about this incident!? Anyone??

Hey it's Winter Solstice! Comments of the shortest day of the year!??

12-22

1894 Alfred Dreyfus is put in prison at devils island, & later found innocent! Actually the relative of famous actor Richard Dreyfus, Any one have the adventurous story of Alfred?? Or website on it??

1941 FDR, & WSC meet to discuss their WWII plans! What did they decide? Comments?

1989 Germany is reunited!? Anyone on how it came about??

Size the day!
MD


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/22/2022 5:17:44 PM
Quote:
1989 the US invades Panama, Operation, Just Cause! Just trying to help out!! What say you??
.

There are photos of elated Panamanians who were happy to see Noriega go. On the other hand, nearly 1000 Panamanians were killed by US forces at the cost of 25 US service people. Was it worth it?

It was an odd time to invade. The US had agreed to hand over control of the Panama Canal Zone and the canal to Panama in the year 2000 but still felt that it had to invade.

George H. W. Bush cited Noriega's involvement in the drug trade as a reason. Noriega had been indicted so they attacked Panama to get him. The strange thing is that Noriega had been indicted by another President and then nothing was done about it because Noriega was also a paid informant for US intelligence services. George H. W. was familiar with Noriega's informant role when he was involved with the CIA.

Noriega refused to acknowledge that he had lost the Presidential election in 1989 and his supporters and forces attacked the supporters of his winning opponent. The US wanted Noriega but they also wanted a regime change in Panama.

Panama had been little more than a vassal state of the US in my opinion. Treaties with the US allowed the US to send in the military any time that it felt the need. And the Panama Canal Zone was a US enclave running the full width of Panama. 35,000 Americans lived in this transplanted piece of the US on Panamanian soil and Bush also said that he had to send in troops to protect the American citizens.

The major interest that the US has in Panama is the canal and it felt that passage for US vessels could be unsafe or stopped altogether. There is an irony here in that the US opposed the invasion of British and French and Israeli troops in Egypt when the Suez canal was nationalized.

It is true that an American serviceman had been shot and killed by the Panamanian Defence Force. The US claimed that the four soldiers in the jeep were just on their way to dinner at a hotel in the PCZ. The PDF claimed that they were an armed recce unit. When the killing happened, Bush ordered Operation Just Cause to begin mobilization. It is also true that Noreiga, who had managed to stay in power had declared war against the US the day before the killing.

When the war was over, the US wanted the Panamanian Defence Force to be disbanded and that is what happened. A police force replaced the PDF leaving Panama without an army. The UN and the Organization of American States both condemned the invasion, calling it a blatant act of aggression.

So did the US have just cause to enter a sovereign state? Panama's government had not been stable and would not be after the US invasion. But is disenchantment with another country's government legitimate grounds to invade?

I would have thought that diplomatic negotiations would have been a better option but the US had spent over a century as a major influence if not a controller of Panama and so the incursion should not have been a surprise.

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/22/2022 6:05:00 PM
Quote:
Hey it's Winter Solstice! Comments of the shortest day of the year!??
Yep, it’s Winter Solstice. But let’s make the shortest day of the year a plural. By our typical measurements of sun-up and sun-down (which are typically in minute lengths), we get a whole bunch of shortest days. Not only that, but the official moment of sun-up will continue to get later for another two weeks or so.

For the hell of it, I’m charting sunrises and sunsets for the year starting 1 August 2022, with the twist of maintaining times in Daylight Savings Time. So for the past five days (since 19 Dec) the day:night split has been 8h19m:15h41m. But the official time of sunrise (taken from Environment Canada) has moved from PDT 09:01 to PDT 09:03, with sunset moving from PDT 17:20 to PDT 17:22. IIRC – I did this 25 years ago, for vastly different reasons – our days will soon begin to lengthen as expected. But the time of sunrise will continue to get later until early 2023.

All these statistics will vary to some extent depending on where you are located on our most singular globe, as to both latitude and longitude. But the pattern should reflect a norm.

So how’s that for a collection of trivia!

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/22/2022 7:14:22 PM
Quote:
1941 FDR, & WSC meet to discuss their WWII plans! What did they decide? Comments?

NYG has found a passage offering coverage of this meeting posted before MD’s note of the event.Quote:
On this day in US History...

British Prime Minister Winston Churchill arrives in Washington, D.C. for a series of meetings with President Franklin Delano Roosevelt on a unified Anglo-American war strategy and a future peace.

​Now that the United States was directly involved in both the Pacific and European wars, it was incumbent upon both Great Britain and America to create and project a unified front. Toward that end, Churchill and Roosevelt created a combined general staff to coordinate military strategy against both Germany and Japan and to draft a future joint invasion of the Continent. Roosevelt also agreed to a radical increase in the U.S. arms production program: the 12,750 operational aircraft to be ready for service by the end of 1943 became 45,000; the proposed 15,450 tanks also became 45,000; and the number of machine guns to be manufactured almost doubled, to 500,000.

Among the momentous results of these U.S.-Anglo meetings was a declaration issued by Churchill and Roosevelt that enjoined 26 signatory nations to use all resources at their disposal to defeat the Axis powers and not sue for a separate peace. This confederation called itself the “United Nations.” Lead by the United States, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union, all 26 nations declared a unified goal to “ensure life, liberty, independence and religious freedom, and to preserve the rights of man and justice.” The blueprint for the destruction of fascism and a future international peacekeeping organization was born.
It’s a pretty good précis of the major topics.

Many of the issues discussed during the WH stay of Christmas 41 were, IIRC, actually topics discussed in more general terms during the Placentia Bay, NFLD conference, held before the US entered the war officially. The 1941 WH visit wasn’t a beginning, but rather a continuation.

I sense that WSC’s WH visit was, in part at least, an attempt to set the goals according to UK aims, and to establish a timetable based on British capabilities. Hell, WSC was at this point the premier Allied war leader, and he’d spent 2+ years in that role. It’s at least probable that he was hoping to maintain his “alpha” position while “welcoming” the US to the conflict. Whether he over-rated his powers of persuasion or not is another question. The balance between what he hoped for and what he got still raises issues.

An addendum to this WH meeting is WSC’s short journey to Ottawa, ON, where he addressed a joint session of the Canadian Parliament. While not perhaps seen as a major speech, or even as a major event, given the expansion of the war in the month to date, it was an indication that WSC was aware of his importance to Commonwealth nations whose troops were sharing the war’s challenges with Britain. And his speech did leave us with “Some chicken! Some neck!”

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/22/2022 8:40:18 PM
WSC arrived in Washington quite concerned that the US would have to alter its "Europe first" endorsement as the critical priority.

On Dec. 7, the US had suspended Lend-Lease transfers of munitions for one month. 479 planes and a large number of aircraft engines designated for Britain had been seized. Some members of Congress had advocated for the full suspension of the Lend-Lease plan.

source: Naval College Review, Vol. 26, #4, Norton D.M., US Navy in Battle of Atlantic

Since Sept of 1941 the US had been in charge of the western side of the Atlantic and had committed many ships to convoy duty. In fact, much to the chagrin of the RCN which had been in the convoy business since 1939, the RCN actually answered to the USN when it came to organizing the convoys. So we had an unusual situation in which a neutral country ostensibly a non-belligerent was actually in command of a convoy zone with a belligerent, Canada, under command.

With the destruction of the Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor it became necessary to transfer many ships from the US Atlantic fleet to the Pacific. 19 destroyers left convoy duty quite quickly though I do not recall the date. By Spring of 1942, the RN and RCN had had to reorganize the convoy system to reflect the fact that very few USN vessels were participating. This was of concern for Churchill.

And so Churchill must have approached the meetings in Washington with some trepidation and surely was relieved to hear FDR confirm that the "Europe First" plan was still approved. In that sense, Churchill got what he wanted and needed.

I note that Brian mentioned Churchill's side trip to Ottawa and his speech to the Canadian Parliament. The Canadians had been upset at the command structure in the Atlantic with respect to the convoy system and angry that Admiral King refused to meet with the man who had headed the Newfoundland Escort Force, RCN Commodore Leonard Murray. Murray had a great deal of experience in the convoy business despite the fact that the RCN was still building capacity. But Admiral King wanted no part of a meeting declaring that to meet with the RCN Commodore would be "unseemly". The British had given the Canadians no say in the arrangements that put the US in control and so part of WSC's Ottawa speech was to praise the Canadians to the hilt.

That speech took place on Dec. 30, 1941. It is often called the "some chicken-some neck" speech and Churchill's target was Vichy leader Pétain who had predicted Britain's demise. He also pays tribute to FDR whom he had been courting in Washington.

For those interested in text of the speech, here it is:

[Read More]

And if the text doesn't interest, here is 3 minutes of the speech from British Pathé. Winston at his best

[Read More]


George

NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/23/2022 6:41:43 AM
On this day in American History....

One week after the Mayflower is anchored at Plymouth harbor in present-day Massachusetts, construction of the first permanent European settlement in New England begins.

On September 16, the Mayflower departed Plymouth, England, bound for the New World with 102 passengers. The ship was headed for Virginia, where the colonists—half religious dissenters and half entrepreneurs—had been authorized to settle by the British crown. In a difficult Atlantic crossing, the 90-foot Mayflower encountered rough seas and storms and was blown more than 500 miles off course.

Along the way, the settlers formulated and signed the Mayflower Compact, an agreement that bound the signatories into a “civil body politic.” Because it established constitutional law and the rule of the majority, the compact is regarded as an important precursor to American democracy. After a 66-day voyage, the ship landed on November 21 at the tip of Cape Cod at what is now Provincetown, Massachusetts.



After coming to anchor in Provincetown harbor, a party of armed men under the command of Captain Myles Standish was sent out to explore the area and find a location suitable for settlement. While they were gone, Susanna White gave birth to a son, Peregrine, aboard the Mayflower. He was the first English child born in New England. In mid-December, the explorers went ashore at a location across Cape Cod Bay where they found cleared fields and plentiful running water, and they named the site Plymouth. The expedition returned to Provincetown, and on December 21 the Mayflowercame to anchor in Plymouth harbor. Two days later, the pilgrims began work on dwellings that would shelter them through their difficult first winter in America.​



In the first year of settlement, half the colonists died of disease. In 1621, the health and economic condition of the colonists improved, and that autumn Governor William Bradford invited neighboring Indians to Plymouth to celebrate the bounty of that year’s harvest season. Plymouth soon secured treaties with most local Indian tribes, and the economy steadily grew, and more colonists were attracted to the settlement. By the mid-1640s, Plymouth’s population numbered 3,000 people, but by then the settlement had been overshadowed by the larger Massachusetts Bay Colony to the north, settled by Puritans in 1629.

The term “Pilgrim” was not used to describe the Plymouth colonists until the early 19th century and was derived from a manuscript in which Governor Bradford spoke of the “saints” who traveled to the New World as “pilgrimes.” In 1820, the orator Daniel Webster spoke of “Pilgrim Fathers” at a bicentennial celebration of Plymouth’s founding, and thereafter the term entered common usage.

================================================== ================================================== =============================================

The Plymouth Company, which consisted of 70 investors, had an agreement with the settlers of the Plymouth Colony, the Pilgrims, promising to finance their trip to North America and in return the settlers would repay the company from profits made by harvesting supplies, such as timber, fur and fish,​ This is Capitalism. They also owned the land that the Pilgrims used to grow food, similar to the Manor system that the Pilgrims knew and grew up under. When that was proven to be unsuccessful, the Pilgrims gave individual lots to be farmed to fellow Pilgrims.

So when some Right wing commentator tells you that the Pilgrims did away with Communism, it isn't true.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/23/2022 9:58:03 AM
Quote:
A few new topics for the time frame of 12-20 to 12-22! Comments & new posts welcome!??

12-20,

1860 South Carolina becomes the 1st southern state to secede from the Union! This state could not get out of the Union fast enough!? They tried even a decade before! They celebrated in Charleston like it was the happiest of days!? Instead they were in for the most terrible of a 1/2 decade ever! How could they be so wrong?? Anyone??

1968, John Steinbeck dies, Famous author of Grapes of Wrath! I hated the part where those mean guys, made the Old Man kill is dog! Also it just wasn't a cheerful story! 2 thumbs down from me!? What say you?? Comments?

1989 the US invades Panama, Operation, Just Cause! Just trying to help out!! What say you??

12-21,

1864 William Tecumseh Sherman captures Savannah, GA. Offers it to Lincoln as A Christmas present! What do you think of Sherman's march to the sea!?

1945, Gen.George Patton is killed in a Auto accident!? How in the he'll could that happen!? Anyone with details on this??

1958 Charles de Gaulle becomes President of France's 5th Republic! What was his take on the Province of Quebec, Canada!? Dr Gaulle, really a friend?? Anyone?

1988 Terrorists shoot down flite Pan Am 103 over Scotland, killing all on board! Then Lybia tried to pay the victims! What say you about this incident!? Anyone??

Hey it's Winter Solstice! Comments of the shortest day of the year!??

12-22

1894 Alfred Dreyfus is put in prison at devils island, & later found innocent! Actually the relative of famous actor Richard Dreyfus, Any one have the adventurous story of Alfred?? Or website on it??

1941 FDR, & WSC meet to discuss their WWII plans! What did they decide? Comments?

1989 Germany is reunited!? Anyone on how it came about??

Size the day!
MD




& on 12-23,

In addition to the Pilgrims on Cape Cod, btw, why would the Pilgrims in a tiny ship travel to a hostile place winter weather wise in what would be New England!? No wonder 1/2 off them died!? Comments??

1783 George Washington resigns from the head of the Continental Army! What became of the Patriots Army??

1805 Joseph Smith of the Mormons is born, beware of those guys in the blue ties & white shirts! Beware of these guys? Have they bugged you??

1941 the Japanese forces take over Wake Island despite a heroic stand by the defenders! Later they executed survivors! How terrible, were they ever punished!? Anyone??

1968 the N. Koreans take over the USS Pueblo & hold the crew to 11 months!? What's the story behind this? & how were they freed?? What say you??

Lots to discuss here! Anyone??
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/23/2022 8:04:47 PM
Quote:
In addition to the Pilgrims on Cape Cod, btw, why would the Pilgrims in a tiny ship travel to a hostile place winter weather wise in what would be New England!? No wonder 1/2 off them died!? Comments??


I was just thinking that the French had established a fort in a part of North America with, if anything, even more hostile and longer winters. Champlain founded Quebec city in 1608.

In 1605 and 1606 Champlain had explored what would become called the New England coastline. He travelled as far south as Cape Cod but those in charge of French exploration told him that they preferred a settlement along the St. Lawrence River and Québec was born. It could have been a different North America had France opted for more of the Atlantic coast rather than a place that was closer to the fur trade. The French were slightly ahead of the English in exploration.

The French were already established in Acadia at Ste-Croix and Port-Royal (now Nova Scotia) as of 1604 but they decided not to establish more settlements farther south on the coastline.

Of course whether it be colonists from New England or New France the weather can be superb from May to September before all hell breaks loose.

And both the French and the English were fortunate that First Nations people were available to teach them how to survive and how to mitigate the conditions that cause diseases like scurvy.

George
NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 6:06:46 AM
on this day in US History...

The Treaty of Peace and Amity between His Britannic Majesty and the United States of America is signed by British and American representatives at Ghent, Belgium, ending the War of 1812. By terms of the treaty, all conquered territory was to be returned, and commissions were planned to settle the boundary of the United States and Canada.

In June 1812, the United States declared war against Great Britain in reaction to three issues: the British economic blockade of France, the induction of thousands of neutral American seamen into the British Royal Navy against their will, and the British support of Native American tribes along the Great Lakes frontier. A faction of Congress, made up mostly of western and southern congressmen, had been advocating the declaration of war for several years. These “War Hawks,” as they were known, hoped that war with Britain, which was preoccupied with its struggle against Napoleonic France, would result in U.S. territorial gains in Canada and British-protected Florida.

In the months following the U.S. declaration of war, American forces launched a three-point invasion of Canada, all of which were repulsed. At sea, however, the United States was more successful, and the USS Constitution and other American frigates won a series of victories over British warships. In 1813, American forces won several key victories in the Great Lakes region, but Britain regained control of the sea and blockaded the eastern seaboard.

In 1814, with the downfall of Napoleon, the British were able to allocate more military resources to the American war, and Washington, D.C., fell to the British in August. In Washington, British troops burned the White House, the Capitol, and other buildings in retaliation for the earlier burning of government buildings in Canada by U.S. soldiers. The British soon retreated, however, and Fort McHenry in Baltimore harbor withstood a massive British bombardment and inspired Francis Scott Key to pen the “Star-Spangled Banner.”

On September 11, 1814, the tide of the war turned when Thomas Macdonough’s American naval force won a decisive victory at the Battle of Plattsburg Bay on Lake Champlain. A large British army under Sir George Prevost was thus forced to abandon its invasion of the U.S. northeast and retreat to Canada. The American victory on Lake Champlain led to the conclusion of U.S.-British peace negotiations in Belgium, and on December 24, 1814, the Treaty of Ghent was signed, ending the war. Although the treaty said nothing about two of the key issues that started the war–the rights of neutral U.S. vessels and the impressment of U.S. sailors–it did open up the Great Lakes region to American expansion and was hailed as a diplomatic victory in the United States.


NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 6:08:34 AM
On tis day in Baseball history ...


1969
"I do not feel that I am a piece of property to be bought and sold irrespective of my wishes." - CURT FLOOD, responding to being traded to Philadelphia.

In a letter to Commissioner Bowie Kuhn, Curt Flood states his refusal to report to the Phillies after being traded by the Cardinals, citing he is not a piece of property to be sold. The MLB Players Association announces support for the outfielder's suit against baseball and agrees to pay the legal fees for the case that eventually goes to the U.S. Supreme Court.

NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 6:14:23 AM
The Separatists left England because of the corruption they felt in the Church of England. They left Holland because of economic difficulties and because their children were losing the ways of the Separatists.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 1:26:33 PM

An addendum to this WH meeting is WSC’s short journey to Ottawa, ON, where he addressed a joint session of the Canadian Parliament. While not perhaps seen as a major speech, or even as a major event, given the expansion of the war in the month to date, it was an indication that WSC was aware of his importance to Commonwealth nations whose troops were sharing the war’s challenges with Britain. And his speech did leave us with “Some chicken! Some neck!”

Cheers
Brian G

Brian, & George,,

Well it's about time that Canada, & other Commonwealth countries got their due!?

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 1:32:13 PM
Quote:
On tis day in Baseball history ...


1969
"I do not feel that I am a piece of property to be bought and sold irrespective of my wishes." - CURT FLOOD, responding to being traded to Philadelphia.

In a letter to Commissioner Bowie Kuhn, Curt Flood states his refusal to report to the Phillies after being traded by the Cardinals, citing he is not a piece of property to be sold. The MLB Players Association announces support for the outfielder's suit against baseball and agrees to pay the legal fees for the case that eventually goes to the U.S. Supreme Court.



Guys,

Who would you say ultimately won this case!?

Regards,
MD

BTW in the 1968 World Series, Curt Flood misplayed A difficult hard hit liner,
leading to the Tigers winning the 68 Series in game 7!? A Tiger fan never forgets!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 1:33:40 PM
Relevant to the above. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1941/1941_Documents_relating_to_World_War_II.html
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 1:38:01 PM
Quote:
Quote:
In addition to the Pilgrims on Cape Cod, btw, why would the Pilgrims in a tiny ship travel to a hostile place winter weather wise in what would be New England!? No wonder 1/2 off them died!? Comments??


I was just thinking that the French had established a fort in a part of North America with, if anything, even more hostile and longer winters. Champlain founded Quebec city in 1608.

In 1605 and 1606 Champlain had explored what would become called the New England coastline. He travelled as far south as Cape Cod but those in charge of French exploration told him that they preferred a settlement along the St. Lawrence River and Québec was born. It could have been a different North America had France opted for more of the Atlantic coast rather than a place that was closer to the fur trade. The French were slightly ahead of the English in exploration.

The French were already established in Acadia at Ste-Croix and Port-Royal (now Nova Scotia) as of 1604 but they decided not to establish more settlements farther south on the coastline.

Of course whether it be colonists from New England or New France the weather can be superb from May to September before all hell breaks loose.

And both the French and the English were fortunate that First Nations people were available to teach them how to survive and how to mitigate the conditions that cause diseases like scurvy.

George



Good point George,

Most early settlements in Canada faced extremely difficult winters?

Any examples of particular Weather hardships, in certain Canadian areas, even bordering on tragedy!??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 4:30:22 PM
Quote:
Relevant to the above. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1941/1941_Documents_relating_to_World_War_II.html


Some wonderful papers written by people like Cordell Hull, Lindberg and one by Joseph Kennedy. I noticed one paper by a US Congressman who wanted to scrap Lend-Lease after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Fortunately for Britain, the idea didn't gain much traction.

Here is OP's site in a READMORE

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/24/2022 7:24:28 PM
Quote:
Most early settlements in Canada faced extremely difficult winters?

Any examples of particular Weather hardships, in certain Canadian areas, even bordering on tragedy!?

Gotta say, Dave, that this isn’t just a Canadian issue, nor is it an early settlement issue. I did some work for our provincial ministry of agriculture in the late 1970s. Worked with a man in Ft. St. John who was born in a sod hut in 1947, with no power until 1951. His father was a vet who pioneered after the war. But not an easy life, for so relatively late in the century.

And back in the late 1960s, my wife and I used to explore back roads in southern Ontario in our used VW van. One place I remember in particular, on a back road between Hamilton and Guelph. It was the remains of a village. There were ruins, but only a village hall and a kirk (our assumption) could be seen. And the graveyard. One row of nine markers all shared the same death date. And the same last name. That was probably common in many areas; it remains with me as a significant and unknown tragedy.

After sharing that with you, how do I segue to “Merry Christmas”? All the best for the holidays, Dave.

Cheers
Brian G

PS: thinking of your neck of the continent, give a listen to Bob Dylan’s “Hollis Brown” some time. Different issues; same tragedy.
B
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 4:19:03 AM
Quote:
Although the treaty said nothing about two of the key issues that started the war–the rights of neutral U.S. vessels and the impressment of U.S. sailors–it did open up the Great Lakes region to American expansion and was hailed as a diplomatic victory in the United States.



The US achieved virtually none of its war goals. In what possible sense was it a victory? It was a score draw with a return to antebellum conditions.

Thankfully the two countries have largely been friendly ever since, especially after the American Civil War.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 7:50:23 AM
In this day in American History,

During the American Revolution, Patriot General George Washingtoncrosses the Delaware River with 5,400 troops, hoping to surprise a Hessian force celebrating Christmas at their winter quarters in Trenton, New Jersey. The unconventional attack came after several months of substantial defeats for Washington’s army that had resulted in the loss of New York City and other strategic points in the region.

At about 11 p.m. on Christmas, Washington’s army commenced its crossing of the half-frozen river at three locations. The 2,400 soldiers led by Washington successfully braved the icy and freezing river and reached the New Jersey side of the Delaware just before dawn. The other two divisions, made up of some 3,000 men and crucial artillery, failed to reach the meeting point at the appointed time.

At approximately 8 a.m. on the morning of December 26, Washington’s remaining force, separated into two columns, reached the outskirts of Trenton and descended on the unsuspecting Hessians. Trenton’s 1,400 Hessian defenders were groggy from the previous evening’s festivities and underestimated the Patriot threat after months of decisive British victories throughout New York. Washington’s men quickly overwhelmed the Germans’ defenses, and by 9:30 a.m. the town was surrounded. Although several hundred Hessians escaped, nearly 1,000 were captured at the cost of only four American lives. However, because most of Washington’s army had failed to cross the Delaware, he was without adequate artillery or men and was forced to withdraw from the town.

The victory was not particularly significant from a strategic point of view, but news of Washington’s initiative raised the spirits of the American colonists, who previously feared that the Continental Army was incapable of victory.
================================================== ================================================== =============================

Washington Crossing is a nice site to visit, with a museum and a movie about the Crossing. You can still drive on the actual roads that Washington marched on towards Preston.


NYGiant
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Posts: 953
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This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 7:56:16 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Although the treaty said nothing about two of the key issues that started the war–the rights of neutral U.S. vessels and the impressment of U.S. sailors–it did open up the Great Lakes region to American expansion and was hailed as a diplomatic victory in the United States.



The US achieved virtually none of its war goals. In what possible sense was it a victory? It was a score draw with a return to antebellum conditions.

Thankfully the two countries have largely been friendly ever since, especially after the American Civil War.

Cheers,

Colin


1.British agents stopped supporting Native American raiders.

2. The British Army was thoroughly defeated at New Orleans.

3. American diplomates realized that threatening Canada would always bring GB to the negotiating table. Thats why right after our Civil War, Canada received full independence. Any GB involvement in our Civil War would have been resulted in an American attack on undefended Canada. This has already been discussed here.
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 8:37:56 AM
The war ended with British pretty much in control of the seas (the lakes being another thing entirely), able to land forces at will wherever it pleased and they had repulsed the invasion(s) of Canada. New Orleans was a heavy defeat for the British forces, but I don’t think it was a war-winning battle for the US.

I stand by my assertion that it was a score draw, both sides having made their point but gaining little.

The real losers, IMO, were the Native Americans who had thrown their lot in the British. Without British support, the push of the frontier by the Americans became unstoppable.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
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This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 9:49:27 AM
New Orleans wasn't a war winning battle for the US, since the war was officially over.

Recall that the US repulsed all invasions by GB upon the US.

What you call the push by Americans, we call Manifest Destiny, IIRC American History.


Merry Christmas and my wishes for a healthy and Happy New Year!
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 10:29:49 AM
I thought that the war was officially on until both sides got properly executed peace documents?
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 12:04:12 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Most early settlements in Canada faced extremely difficult winters?

Any examples of particular Weather hardships, in certain Canadian areas, even bordering on tragedy!?

Gotta say, Dave, that this isn’t just a Canadian issue, nor is it an early settlement issue. I did some work for our provincial ministry of agriculture in the late 1970s. Worked with a man in Ft. St. John who was born in a sod hut in 1947, with no power until 1951. His father was a vet who pioneered after the war. But not an easy life, for so relatively late in the century.

And back in the late 1960s, my wife and I used to explore back roads in southern Ontario in our used VW van. One place I remember in particular, on a back road between Hamilton and Guelph. It was the remains of a village. There were ruins, but only a village hall and a kirk (our assumption) could be seen. And the graveyard. One row of nine markers all shared the same death date. And the same last name. That was probably common in many areas; it remains with me as a significant and unknown tragedy.

After sharing that with you, how do I segue to “Merry Christmas”? All the best for the holidays, Dave.

Cheers
Brian G

PS: thinking of your neck of the continent, give a listen to Bob Dylan’s “Hollis Brown” some time. Different issues; same tragedy.
B



Hi Brian,

Not a very cheerful song or event, but sadly the same type of event occurs to often, in the US as well!?

With the terrible storm, & other issues, it's not been one of the best Christmases for us!?

But still any Christmas you can celebrate, is a good Christmas!!

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 12:20:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Although the treaty said nothing about two of the key issues that started the war–the rights of neutral U.S. vessels and the impressment of U.S. sailors–it did open up the Great Lakes region to American expansion and was hailed as a diplomatic victory in the United States.



The US achieved virtually none of its war goals. In what possible sense was it a victory? It was a score draw with a return to antebellum conditions.

Thankfully the two countries have largely been friendly ever since, especially after the American Civil War.

Cheers,

Colin



Hi Colin,

Speaking of Antebellum conditions, & the American Civil War? I've heard there is a statue & tribute of Abraham Lincoln in Manchester, where Confederate cotton was stored ready to be used in the British Textile Industry!? But the Manchester workers refused to use it because it promoted slavery! Also they admired Lincoln, & his anti slavery stand! They put this statue, & monument to honor him! Perhaps someone could post a website on it!?

Thanks, & regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 12:47:46 PM
The American Civil War, in particular the Anaconda Plan, created the Egyptian cotton industry.

You're welcome.
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 1:08:10 PM
Quote:
I thought that the war was officially on until both sides got properly executed peace documents?

It was explicitly stated in the treaty that the war would not be over until both sides had approved the treaty without making any changes to it. The British insisted on this based on the previous actions of the US Senate. In some previous treaties the US Senate had unilaterally changed them after negotiations had already agreed on a them. The British government insisted that no changes to a treaty ending a war would be tolerated.

The first article in the treaty stated: "All hostilities both by sea and land shall cease as soon as this Treaty shall have been ratified by both parties as hereinafter mentioned."

[Read More]

The British commander at New Orleans, Major General Sir Edward Pakenham, was given instructions from Bathurst (Secretary of State for War and the Colonies) including the following:

Quote:
You may possibly hear whilst engaged in active operations that the Preliminaries of Peace between His Majesty and the United States have been signed in Europe and that they have been sent to America in order to receive the Ratification of The President.

As the Treaty would not be binding until it shall have received such Ratification in which we may be disappointed by the refusal of the Government of the United States, it is advisable that Hostilities should not be suspended until you shall have official information that The President has actually ratified the Treaty and a Person will be duly authorized to apprise you of this event.


Pakenham's full instructions can be found at the following link.
[Read More]

In 1806 Major General Sir Arthur Wellesley (Wellington) married Pakenham's sister.

There are many interesting article on the War of 1812 at the following link.

[Read More]

Gary
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 2:20:57 PM
Quote:
In this day in American History,

During the American Revolution, Patriot General George Washingtoncrosses the Delaware River with 5,400 troops, hoping to surprise a Hessian force celebrating Christmas at their winter quarters in Trenton, New Jersey. The unconventional attack came after several months of substantial defeats for Washington’s army that had resulted in the loss of New York City and other strategic points in the region.

At about 11 p.m. on Christmas, Washington’s army commenced its crossing of the half-frozen river at three locations. The 2,400 soldiers led by Washington successfully braved the icy and freezing river and reached the New Jersey side of the Delaware just before dawn.

At approximately 8 a.m. on the morning of December 26, Washington’s remaining force, separated into two columns, reached the outskirts of Trenton and descended on the unsuspecting Hessians. Trenton’s 1,400 Hessian defenders were groggy from the previous evening’s festivities,

The victory was not particularly significant from a strategic point of view, but news of Washington’s initiative raised the spirits of the American colonists, who previously feared that the Continental Army was incapable of victory.
================================================== ================================================== =============================

Washington Crossing is a nice site to visit, with a museum and a movie about the Crossing. You can still drive on the actual roads that Washington marched on towards Preston.





Hey Giant,

Isn't there a famous painting of Washington crossing the Delaware??

Maybe someone could post it??

Victory during Christmas!
You gotta love it!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 2:45:23 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Although the treaty said nothing about two of the key issues that started the war–the rights of neutral U.S. vessels and the impressment of U.S. sailors–it did open up the Great Lakes region to American expansion and was hailed as a diplomatic victory in the United States.



The US achieved virtually none of its war goals. In what possible sense was it a victory? It was a score draw with a return to antebellum conditions.

Thankfully the two countries have largely been friendly ever since, especially after the American Civil War.

Cheers,

Colin


1.British agents stopped supporting Native American raiders.

2. The British Army was thoroughly defeated at New Orleans.

3. American diplomates realized that threatening Canada would always bring GB to the negotiating table. Thats why right after our Civil War, Canada received full independence. Any GB involvement in our Civil War would have been resulted in an American attack on undefended Canada. This has already been discussed here.



No the British Army was not thoroughly defeated at New Orleans. New Orleans was but one battle. I have already noted in other posts that the British left New Orleans and headed for another city, Mobile, Alabama in their quest to wreak havoc on the US coast. To attack Mobile would require the seizure of Fort Bowyer which the British did successfully. While preparing to attack Mobile, they received official word of the peace treaty. They also had plans to return to New Orleans.

There were still thousands of British troops in Canada. The defeat on Lake Champlain caused no damage to the 30,000 British regulars including many from the Napoleonic Wars. Their commander, George Prévost, was a cautious man and he ignored the advice of his seasoned commanders at Plattsburgh who encouraged him to press on. I think that Prévost made the correct decision in this case but he returned to Lower Canada with a fully intact army.

Canada has been threatened with annexation since the American Revolution. But Canada always had the protection of Britain and especially the RN and that continued much after the American Civil War. The RCN did not come into existence until 1910. The Royal Navy Dockyard in Halifax, Nova Scotia continuedto be operated by the British until 1905.

Your original post which of course was a cut and paste from History always has a cautionary note, for me anyway, at the top that says "This day in American History". Odd that you continue to post this incomplete and biased reporting from this site on a section of the forum dealing with World History.

That original post and some of your subsequent commentary is flawed in that it seems to concentrate on the defeats of the British at Lake Erie and Lake Champlain and paints the British as the aggressors whom the Americans repulsed from US soil. What you fail to recognize is that the Americans were the aggressors who started this war by invading the Canadas. And they were defeated in that endeavour. That the British continued to attempt to defeat the aggressors totally by crossing the border or to bomb coastal cities at will does not justify the entry into the Canadas initially. Nor does this approach recognize that annexation of Canada, a recurring theme in US history, was once again front and centre in the War of 1812. I generally reject the argument that the invasion was necessary to put pressure on the British to alter its restrictive trade practices (already done before the US invasion} and impressment of Americans into the RN.

And about impressment. Lost in many US histories of the war is the fact that US ships both military and commercial did have amongst their crews many deserters from the RN. I used to have the number but cannot recall but it is in the hundreds. The US did little to determine whether these sailors were British subjects and deserters. Lost as well is the fact that the USN also engaged in the practice of impressment.

As for Canadian independence on July 1, 1867, that had been in the works since 1818 or so, after Wellington completed an assessment of Canadian defences and encouraged the building of citadels and canals to avoid using the St. Lawrence to move goods and troops where possible.

In fact the union of the British provinces had been mentioned in the Durham Report of 1839 called, "Report on the Affairs of British North America." In 1841 this union was partly achieved with the forced union of Upper and Lower Canada as the United Province of Canada.

Another motivation was because of an annexation movement in Montréal which called for annexation to the US. Between 1856 and 1857 newspapers in Canada called for full confederation of all the provinces. The argument was usually based upon economics but also to thwart a domestic annexation movement.

The first call for Confederation of all BNA came in 1858 and from the colony of British Columbia of all places. And in that same year, a delegation from the United Province of Canada proposed a full confederation to the British Colonial Office which gave it a short sniff. Calls for confederation continued and accelerated during the US civil war. There were fears of annexation but worse would be to see the US form of government imposed that the proponents of Confederation were convinced could only lead to violence and incivility.

As I ramble on at length about the reasons and the timeline of Confederation, I will conclude by saying that while the speed with which Confederation occurred was accelerated by Canadian perceptions of the civil war, it was not granted because of the civil war. Nor was full independence granted. Dominion status was achieved which was largely full independence but the right to negotiate one's foreign policy was not granted until the Balfour Report came out in 1931. Canada had indicated its desire to control its own foreign policy and that request became hard to deny once Canada and the other colonies with Dominion status had spilled their blood during WW1.

Lastly, there were four factions with an opinion on who won the War of 1812. The British had little to say on the matter as they did not consider the war to be all that important. Given what was on their plate at that time, the scuffle in North America was more of an annoyance.

The American narrative that there were good reasons to invade Canada and to go to war with Britain was altered in the post war period when some argued that the war was actually the second war of independence. I reject that because US independence was never at stake. It is true that the British hoped to lay a good spanking on "cousin Jonathan" for attacking British colonies when Britain was involved in a major war against a tyrant like Napoleon but Britain had no designs on reclamation of the 13 colonies.

And I do not believe that that was ever possible. There were too many people in those colonies. However, the British had sufficient power when assisted by First Nations and colonial militia to drive the US forces out the colonies and did so on numerous occasions. They also through the RN had the ability to destroy the US economy which was in tatters because of the blockade of ports by RN vessels. I noted in Mr. Giant's original cut and paste that the writers were quick to point out the success of some USN vessels in one on one encounters at the beginning of the war. But the article failed to note that those same vessels were largely driven to port by the RN squadrons on the Atlantic coast. In fact, I believe that they destroyed at least three of those large frigates. One frigate never left port again after being driven to safe harbour.

The USN squadrons had managed to defeat the smaller and poorly armed RN vessels on Lake Erie and Lake Champlain. They could not however defeat the RN on Lake Ontario and the British continued to hold Fort Mackinac at the entrance to Lake Huron until the end of the war. So the US could not control the upper Great Lakes either despite assertions made on this forum.

The FN's know that they were the losers in this war. They were effectively abandoned by the British who did insist upon a clause in the treaty of Ghent that ended the war that was supposed to protect Indian lands.

Quote:
ARTICLE THE NINTH.
The United States of America engage to put an end immediately after the Ratification of the present Treaty to hostilities with all the Tribes or Nations of Indians with whom they may be at war at the time of such Ratification, and forthwith to restore to such Tribes or Nations respectively all the possessions, rights, and privileges which they may have enjoyed or been entitled to in one thousand eight hundred and eleven previous to such hostilities. Provided always that such Tribes or Nations shall agree to desist from all hostilities against the United States of America, their Citizens, and Subjects upon the Ratification of the present Treaty being notified to such Tribes or Nations, and shall so desist accordingly. And His Britannic Majesty engages on his part to put an end immediately after the Ratification of the present Treaty to hostilities with all the Tribes or Nations of Indians with whom He may be at war at the time of such Ratification, and forthwith to restore to such Tribes or Nations respectively all the possessions, rights, and privileges, which they may have enjoyed or been entitled to in one thousand eight hundred and eleven previous to such hostilities. Provided always that such Tribes or Nations shall agree to desist from all hostilities against His Britannic Majesty and His Subjects upon the Ratification of the present Treaty being notified to such Tribes or Nations, and shall so desist accordingly.



The US had no intention to restore native lands that the British had felt would be appropriate in the Ohio Valley. And sadly the British had no interest in defending the interest of First Nations once the war ended.

The Canadian point of view is that an invader who had always had designs on the rest of BNA was thoroughly beaten and driven out. That is all true but the Upper Canada narrative which was written after the war gave all credit to the brave citizen soldiers of the militia who stood their ground against the US forces. The truth is that British regulars assisted by embedded militia with a higher standard of training and the First Nations were able to defeat the American forces. The sedentary militia made a minor contribution.

To say that independence came about solely because of the US civil war is a facile explanation. There were political forces at work in the United Province of Canada that wanted to see that union discontinued. Sir John A. Macdonald who would become our first PM had to form an alliance with a reformer named George Brown who demanded constitutional reform. These events transpired as early as 1857 but Macdonald agreed to form a coalition with Brown in 1864. Brown and others were convinced that the united province gave too much power to the French Canadians and that government was unworkable with them in a united province. A greater union of all the British provinces would resolve the issue of forced co-operation between the French and the English in Canada.

Macdonald saw economic advantages to a political union of the British provinces and he had a dream to open a country from sea to sea that would give the Canadas a port on the west coast. When the US imploded in a civil war, Macdonald became convinced that a strong, central government was the key to a successful union and he looked in horror upon the divisions in the US caused partly by what he saw as too much power vested in the hands of state politicians.

So who won? Certainly not the FN's.

At best the US may claim a draw. But I consider that to be generous considering that none of the original reasons to go to war were even addressed in the Treaty of Ghent and that as the war ended the British were still prosecuting the war on US soil. That did not end with the Battle of New Orleans. Attempts to paint the British as the aggressors in this conflict are folly. Yes they attacked Washington, Maine and wherever they wished to attack in the last year of the war but this was more retributive justice than blatant aggression against a defenceless foe.

The US went to the negotiations anticipating that it may well have had to cede some territory to the British, most likely a section of Maine that the British had occupied. The victory at Battle of Lake Champlain probably saved the US that fate. The British decided that it would be better to make peace so as to get back to making money. After all, the Napoleonic Wars and the War of 1812 had been expensive propositions for them. I think that they knew that the US economy had been destroyed by the RN blockade but it was also expensive to maintain that blockade.

My view is that the US got off lightly but as they had been driven out of the provinces that they wished to subjugate, I call a British/Canadian victory.
BTW, there is an interesting perspective on this war that has been written by an American author named Alan Taylor. He claims that both the American revolution and the War of 1812 were civil wars. I greatly enjoyed his book called:

Quote:
The Civil War of 1812: American Citizens, British Subjects, Irish Rebels, & Indian Allies



Cheers,

George
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 4:53:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
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No the British Army was not thoroughly defeated at New Orleans. New Orleans was but one battle.



The US had no intention to restore native lands that the British had felt would be appropriate in the Ohio Valley. And sadly the British had no interest in defending the interest of First Nations once the war ended.


Cheers,

George

The Americans suffered just 71 casualties, while the British suffered over 2,000, including the deaths of the commanding general, Major General Sir Edward Pakenham, and his second-in-command, Major General Samuel Gibbs.

Cheers and Merry Christmas!

NY Giant
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 6:25:00 PM
Quote:




Hey Giant,

Isn't there a famous painting of Washington crossing the Delaware??

Maybe someone could post it??

Victory during Christmas!
You gotta love it!?

Regards,
MD


[Read More]

It´s not the Delaware. It´s the Rhine at Düsseldorf.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 7:07:54 PM
Quote:

No the British Army was not thoroughly defeated at New Orleans. New Orleans was but one battle.



The US had no intention to restore native lands that the British had felt would be appropriate in the Ohio Valley. And sadly the British had no interest in defending the interest of First Nations once the war ended.


Cheers,

George

The Americans suffered just 71 casualties, while the British suffered over 2,000, including the deaths of the commanding general, Major General Sir Edward Pakenham, and his second-in-command, Major General Samuel Gibbs.

Cheers and Merry Christmas!

NY Giant


Not relevant, NY. Just distasteful gloating. We know that this battle at New Orleans was not a war won though some US citizens would like to believe that. The US aggressor was still under attack in his own backyard.

Merry Christmas to you as well

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/25/2022 7:25:41 PM
Quote:
New Orleans wasn't a war winning battle for the US, since the war was officially over.

Recall that the US repulsed all invasions by GB upon the US.

What you call the push by Americans, we call Manifest Destiny, IIRC American History.


Merry Christmas and my wishes for a healthy and Happy New Year!


Sigh again. The US "reaped the whirlwind" as Winston would have said. Perhaps it was unwise to think that the invasion of the British colonies inhabited by people who meant nor could deliver any harm to the US was anything other than bullying. Again perhaps unwise to think that these peaceful people would welcome an invader with flowers.

The US invader was repulsed from the British colonies on at least 10 occasions during the war. Had the shoe been on the other foot would the US have stopped and waved good-bye to invaders from the north. And so the British pursued the invader into his homeland hoping to defeat him and was still in pursuit when the war ended.

Those of us who have experienced the fall out of an arrogant and self centred policy like Manifest Destiny have other names for it. Nothing more than a euphemism for imperialism.

Cheers,

George
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