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Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 4:37:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:

No the British Army was not thoroughly defeated at New Orleans. New Orleans was but one battle.



The US had no intention to restore native lands that the British had felt would be appropriate in the Ohio Valley. And sadly the British had no interest in defending the interest of First Nations once the war ended.


Cheers,

George

The Americans suffered just 71 casualties, while the British suffered over 2,000, including the deaths of the commanding general, Major General Sir Edward Pakenham, and his second-in-command, Major General Samuel Gibbs.

Cheers and Merry Christmas!

NY Giant


Not relevant, NY. Just distasteful gloating. We know that this battle at New Orleans was not a war won though some US citizens would like to believe that. The US aggressor was still under attack in his own backyard.

Merry Christmas to you as well

George


There is an intriguing theme to these British military disasters that occurred on North American soil .

The destruction of Braddock’s force in the warfare against the French in the 1750s comes to mind, although the slaughter of the redcoats at Ticonderoga or the Battle of Carillon was the biggest carnage of all.
The appalling loss suffered by the British at Bunker Hill -, or should it be Breed’s Hill ?- stands notorious, although the American position was stormed and carried at bayonet point.

Then of course there’s New Orleans. The most lopsided of all ? Maybe Braddock’s defeat was even worse in that respect.

Earlier, at Lundy’s Lane, the fighting had been very even in the reckoning of casualties, with perhaps the Americans faring slightly worse.

I wonder what it was like for those British soldiers who were taken so far from home to fight in those wars, too often against people they must have considered their own kith and kin.

A singular record, perhaps, of a relatively small nation sending its men all over the world to fight and die in far distant places, from Plassey to Quebec.

What a hard and horrible life it must have been !

But, I suppose, life for everyone in those days must have been unimaginably grim by our standards.

The squalour and the pox was ubiquitous, and violent death ran riot, in civilian as well as military existence.

Best to all for Christmas and New Year !

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 7:24:19 AM
This day in US History,...



On December 26, General George S. Patton employs an audacious strategy to relieve the besieged Allied defenders of Bastogne, Belgium, during the brutal Battle of the Bulge.



The capture of Bastogne was the ultimate goal of the Battle of the Bulge, the German offensive through the Ardennes forest. Bastogne provided a road junction in rough terrain where few roads existed; it would open up a valuable pathway further north for German expansion. The Belgian town was defended by the U.S. 101st Airborne Division, which had to be reinforced by troops who straggled in from other battlefields. Food, medical supplies, and other resources eroded as bad weather and relentless German assaults threatened the Americans’ ability to hold out. Nevertheless, Brigadier General Anthony C. MacAuliffe met a German surrender demand with a typewritten response of a single word: “Nuts.”

Enter “Old Blood and Guts,” General Patton. Employing a complex and quick-witted strategy wherein he literally wheeled his 3rd Army a sharp 90 degrees in a counterthrust movement, Patton broke through the German lines and entered Bastogne, relieving the valiant defenders and ultimately pushing the Germans east across the Rhine.
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 7:25:18 AM
Phil, Let's not forget Saratoga!
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 8:03:04 AM
Quote:
Phil, Let's not forget Saratoga!


Was that the battle that Mel Gibson won ?

I’m sure that he’d just beaten the wicked English when he was Braveheart, and then he rushed to North America and beat them again as The Patriot.

😂

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 8:10:44 AM
Quote:
Phil, Let's not forget Saratoga!


NY, you're not quite understanding the theme behind Phil's post. He was talking about the plight of the poor British soldier who was despatched to the far flung reaches of the Empire to fight and die. Perhaps those men did not understand why they were asked to go to these places. The plight of the foot soldier.

In a couple of those battles that Phil mentioned, British soldiers were fighting to defend British subjects in the colonies, Americans in other words. Braddock's defeat comes to mind. The defeat at the hands of Montcalm at Fort Carillon (Ticonderoga)

Perhaps we should list the British victories in various wars in North America including the War of 1812.

Battle of Detroit, Queenston Heights, Chateauguay, Crysler's Farm, Stoney Creek, Beaver Dams, Lundy's Lane

Louisbourg, Plains of Abraham, Montréal in the Seven Years War

But you will continue to gloat rather than address the point.


GregT
Three Rivers MA USA
Posts: 164
Joined: 2013
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 8:21:26 AM
Hi Phil

I believe The Patriot was based on the Cowpens battle.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 9:09:26 AM
Quote:
Quote:
A few new topics for the time frame of 12-20 to 12-22! Comments, for reposted on new page!? Most not commented on yet!!?? Comments?

12-20,

1860 South Carolina becomes the 1st southern state to secede from the Union! This state could not get out of the Union fast enough!? They tried even a decade before! They celebrated in Charleston like it was the happiest of days!? Instead they were in for the most terrible of a 1/2 decade ever! How could they be so wrong?? Anyone??

1968, John Steinbeck dies, Famous author of Grapes of Wrath! I hated the part where those mean guys, made the Old Man kill is dog! Also it just wasn't a cheerful story! 2 thumbs down from me!? What say you?? Comments?

1989 the US invades Panama, Operation, Just Cause! Just trying to help out!! What say you??

12-21,

1864 William Tecumseh Sherman captures Savannah, GA. Offers it to Lincoln as A Christmas present! What do you think of Sherman's march to the sea!?

1945, Gen.George Patton is killed in a Auto accident!? How in the he'll could that happen!? Anyone with details on this??

1958 Charles de Gaulle becomes President of France's 5th Republic! What was his take on the Province of Quebec, Canada!? Dr Gaulle, really a friend?? Anyone?

1988 Terrorists shoot down flite Pan Am 103 over Scotland, killing all on board! Then Lybia tried to pay the victims! What say you about this incident!? Anyone??

Hey it's Winter Solstice! Comments of the shortest day of the year!??

12-22

1894 Alfred Dreyfus is put in prison at devils island, & later found innocent! Actually the relative of famous actor Richard Dreyfus, Any one have the adventurous story of Alfred?? Or website on it??

1941 FDR, & WSC meet to discuss their WWII plans! What did they decide? Comments?

1989 Germany is reunited!? Anyone on how it came about??

Size the day!
MD




& on 12-23,

In addition to the Pilgrims on Cape Cod, btw, why would the Pilgrims in a tiny ship travel to a hostile place winter weather wise in what would be New England!? No wonder 1/2 off them died!? Comments??

1783 George Washington resigns from the head of the Continental Army! What became of the Patriots Army??

1805 Joseph Smith of the Mormons is born, beware of those guys in the blue ties & white shirts! Beware of these guys? Have they bugged you??

1941 the Japanese forces take over Wake Island despite a heroic stand by the defenders! Later they executed survivors! How terrible, were they ever punished!? Anyone??

1968 the N. Koreans take over the USS Pueblo & hold the crew to 11 months!? What's the story behind this? & how were they freed?? What say you??

Lots to discuss here! Anyone??
MD

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 9:10:55 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Phil, Let's not forget Saratoga!


NY, you're not quite understanding the theme behind Phil's post. He was talking about the plight of the poor British soldier who was despatched to the far flung reaches of the Empire to fight and die. Perhaps those men did not understand why they were asked to go to these places. The plight of the foot soldier.

In a couple of those battles that Phil mentioned, British soldiers were fighting to defend British subjects in the colonies, Americans in other words. Braddock's defeat comes to mind. The defeat at the hands of Montcalm at Fort Carillon (Ticonderoga)

Perhaps we should list the British victories in various wars in North America including the War of 1812.

Battle of Detroit, Queenston Heights, Chateauguay, Crysler's Farm, Stoney Creek, Beaver Dams, Lundy's Lane

Louisbourg, Plains of Abraham, Montréal in the Seven Years War

But you will continue to gloat rather than address the point.




We should not forget Yorktown, nor the defeat of HMS Serapis.

And what you call gloating, I call triumph.

cheers, NY Giant



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 9:13:04 AM
Quote:
Quote:




Hey Giant,

Isn't there a famous painting of Washington crossing the Delaware??

Maybe someone could post it??

Victory during Christmas!
You gotta love it!?

Regards,
MD


[Read More]

It´s not the Delaware. It´s the Rhine at Düsseldorf.

Trevor



Hi Trevor,

Unreal !

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 9:46:43 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Phil, Let's not forget Saratoga!


NY, you're not quite understanding the theme behind Phil's post. He was talking about the plight of the poor British soldier who was despatched to the far flung reaches of the Empire to fight and die. Perhaps those men did not understand why they were asked to go to these places. The plight of the foot soldier.

In a couple of those battles that Phil mentioned, British soldiers were fighting to defend British subjects in the colonies, Americans in other words. Braddock's defeat comes to mind. The defeat at the hands of Montcalm at Fort Carillon (Ticonderoga)

Perhaps we should list the British victories in various wars in North America including the War of 1812.

Battle of Detroit, Queenston Heights, Chateauguay, Crysler's Farm, Stoney Creek, Beaver Dams, Lundy's Lane

Louisbourg, Plains of Abraham, Montréal in the Seven Years War

But you will continue to gloat rather than address the point.




We should not forget Yorktown, nor the defeat of HMS Serapis.

And what you call gloating, I call triumph.

cheers, NY Giant





You missed Phil's point. I will hand it to the French though. Brilliant victory at Yorktown.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 9:56:26 AM
Quote:
Hi Phil

I believe The Patriot was based on the Cowpens battle.



You’re right.

It’s the interpretation of the British - the English, especially - in such films that I find significant. My compatriots are depicted as arrogant and effete at best, tyrannical fiends at worst.

It would be a real affront if it were taken seriously.

Actually, I enjoy the films. The Last of the Mohicans was terrific stuff. The historical accuracy is suspect, to say the least.

I’m pleased that George discerned the real interest I feel in the story of the redcoat soldiers who fought in those campaigns. I did read a rather good book about their ordeal in the various wars of the eighteenth century, by Saul David, IIRC.

Regards, Phil

----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 10:22:53 AM
Quote:
[



You missed Phil's point. I will hand it to the French though. Brilliant victory at Yorktown.


You missed Saratoga. And Lexington and Concord. And Trenton. And Kings Mountain. And Cowpens.

I'll hand it to the Continental soldier. Brilliant victories!

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 1:48:06 PM
Quote:


You missed Phil's point. I will hand it to the French though. Brilliant victory at Yorktown.



“ You missed Saratoga. And Lexington and Concord. And Trenton. And Kings Mountain. And Cowpens.

I'll hand it to the Continental soldier. Brilliant victories! “



Saul David’s conclusion on the performance of the British army in this war :

And the fact that not a single major set-piece battle was lost by the British- as opposed to smaller scale engagements and skirmishes such as Lexington-Concord, Trenton and Princeton- is proof enough that the redcoats had not lost their ability to fight.

All the King’s Men , page299.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 1:54:38 PM
Good men were being killed on both sides in that war. It was a civil war although always touted as a war for independence. Civil wars are most unfortunate as they pit brother against brother.

Of course, many of the redcoats were not born in North America but it is also true that many British regiments were raised in North America as were Loyalist militia.

Cheers,

George
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 3:37:58 PM
Phil,

What does Saul David have to say about Yorktown? Does he just write that off as a result of the French naval blockade? That would be understandable.

Gary
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 4:23:26 PM
Quote:
Phil,

What does Saul David have to say about Yorktown? Does he just write that off as a result of the French naval blockade? That would be understandable.

Gary



Weren't there nearly as many French soldiers on the ground as Continental Army soldiers? Of course the British had their Hessians and in total were greatly outnumbered by the French/Continental Army force. Is it true that the French/American force had nearly a 2:1 advantage in manpower?

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 4:29:46 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Hey it's Winter Solstice! Comments of the shortest day of the year!??
Yep, it’s Winter Solstice. But let’s make the shortest day of the year a plural. By our typical measurements of sun-up and sun-down (which are typically in minute lengths), we get a whole bunch of shortest days. Not only that, but the official moment of sun-up will continue to get later for another two weeks or so.

For the hell of it, I’m charting sunrises and sunsets for the year starting 1 August 2022, with the twist of maintaining times in Daylight Savings Time. So for the past five days (since 19 Dec) the day:night split has been 8h19m:15h41m. But the official time of sunrise (taken from Environment Canada) has moved from PDT 09:01 to PDT 09:03, with sunset moving from PDT 17:20 to PDT 17:22. IIRC – I did this 25 years ago, for vastly different reasons – our days will soon begin to lengthen as expected. But the time of sunrise will continue to get later until early 2023.

All these statistics will vary to some extent depending on where you are located on our most singular globe, as to both latitude and longitude. But the pattern should reflect a norm.

So how’s that for a collection of trivia!
Cheers
Brian G



Hi Brian,

The problem with sun rises, & sun sets around here is that it's so friggen cloudy, you can't enjoy them this time of year! Here in West Michigan, we are one of the areas that see the least amount of sunshine!? How about you? & other MHO members? See much of the sun during your winters??

Depressing,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 4:42:04 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Phil,

What does Saul David have to say about Yorktown? Does he just write that off as a result of the French naval blockade? That would be understandable.

Gary



Weren't there nearly as many French soldiers on the ground as Continental Army soldiers? Of course the British had their Hessians and in total were greatly outnumbered by the French/Continental Army force. Is it true that the French/American force had nearly a 2:1 advantage in manpower?

Cheers,

George


It's about the Redcoats and not the composition of the opposition. That is why I ask Phil about what Saul David said.

Gary
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 5:00:34 PM
Quote:
Phil,

What does Saul David have to say about Yorktown? Does he just write that off as a result of the French naval blockade? That would be understandable.

Gary


Rest assured, Gary, that I’ll go to the text and find out.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/26/2022 9:36:33 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Phil,

What does Saul David have to say about Yorktown? Does he just write that off as a result of the French naval blockade? That would be understandable.

Gary



Weren't there nearly as many French soldiers on the ground as Continental Army soldiers? Of course the British had their Hessians and in total were greatly outnumbered by the French/Continental Army force. Is it true that the French/American force had nearly a 2:1 advantage in manpower?

Cheers,

George


It's about the Redcoats and not the composition of the opposition. That is why I ask Phil about what Saul David said.

Gary


Hello Gary,
My point was that the French contribution was not only on the seas where the French navy prevented an evacuation by the RN. Those French soldiers played an important part in seizing the British redoubts. I understand now that you want to know whether Saul David gave sole credit to the French Navy for the victory. I apologize for the misdirection.

George
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 5:23:14 AM
On this day in US History,....

At the height of the Great Depression, thousands turn out for the opening of Radio City Music Hall, a magnificent Art Deco theater in New York City. Radio City Music Hall was designed as a palace for the people, a place of beauty where ordinary people could see high-quality entertainment. Since its 1932 opening, more than 300 million people have gone to Radio City to enjoy movies, stage shows, concerts and special events.

Radio City Music Hall was the brainchild of the billionaire John D. Rockefeller, Jr., who decided to make the theater the cornerstone of the Rockefeller Complex he was building in a formerly derelict neighborhood in midtown Manhattan. The theater was built in partnership with the Radio Corporation of America (RCA) and designed by Donald Deskey. The result was an Art Deco masterpiece of elegance and grace constructed out of a diverse variety of materials, including aluminum, gold foil, marble, permatex, glass, and cork. Geometric ornamentation is found throughout the theater, as is Deskey’s central theme of the “Progress of Man.” The famous Great Stage, measuring 60 feet wide and 100 feet long, resembles a setting sun. Its sophisticated system of elevators allowed spectacular effects in staging, and many of its original mechanisms are still in use today.

In its first four decades, Radio City Music Hall alternated as a first-run movie theater and a site for gala stage shows. More than 700 films have premiered at Radio City Music Hall since 1933. In the late 1970s, the theater changed its format and began staging concerts by popular music artists. The Radio City Music Hall Christmas Spectacular, which debuted in 1933, draws more than a million people annually. The show features the high-kicking Rockettes, a precision dance troupe that has been a staple at Radio City since the 1930s.
================================================================================================================================================

Still a magnificent theater, it was always a highlight of our trip to NYC in the Fall to take in a Yankees Worlds Series game.

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 5:36:38 AM
Quote:
Phil,

What does Saul David have to say about Yorktown? Does he just write that off as a result of the French naval blockade? That would be understandable.

Gary


It's all too brief, I'm afraid, Gary.

He dwells at length on the early fighting, with extensive and interesting renditions about Lexington-Concord, Bunker Hill and Saratoga, filled with captivating descriptions and anecdotes : and then he rushes the narrative. It seems that Saul David set himself an immense task, covering the story of the Redcoats from the middle of the sixteenth century until well into the nineteenth, and , perhaps, feared that he was dwelling too long on the American Revolution. His culmination at Yorktown is rushed and sweeping.

It was now that Cornwallis, relying on reinforcements from New York and British control of the sea, marched into Virginia and established a base at Yorktown, near the mouth of the Chesapeake River. Trapped there by rebel and French forces under the Marquis de Lafayette, he pinned his hopes on Clinton's arrival with a British fleet. But when a superior French fleet under the Comte de Grass forced Rear-Admiral Graves's squadron to withdraw from Chesapeake Bay on 5 September, and soon after Washington's army arrived at Yorktown from the north, after feinting an attack on New York, Cornwallis was doomed. He surrendered on 18 October, the day after the fourth anniversary of Burgoyne's capitulation at Saratoga. pages 297-98

There it is, then.

A couple of pages earlier he writes in truth the war was lost as soon as France signed an alliance with the rebels in early 1778........... Not only was France able to bring the full weight of its naval and military capacity to bear against Britain, it was joined in 1779 by Spain and the Dutch Republic, and together their navies were able to wrest maritime supremacy from the British for the first time in more than a century.

Significant that he refers to the " Rebels", isn't it ?

His statistical reckoning of the war caught my eye : 42,000 British regulars were sent to fight in North America in the war, of whom just under one fourth perished, about 65% from disease. A further 7,500 Germans and 4,000 loyalists also died, giving an aggregate of 21,000 deaths among the 85,000 soldiers who fought for the British. No naval deaths are mentioned. Rebel fatalities were higher, totalling 30,000 deaths from the 100,000 who bore arms. He gives no numbers for the French.

Regards, Phil

----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 8:32:02 AM
With the deed done at Yorktown in 1781, the French navy sailed away to its possessions in the Caribbean with its eyes on the British colony of Jamaica and other British possessions. The French, the Spanish and the Dutch and even the Danes hoped to feast on the pickings of the British colonies now that the RN had lost control of the Atlantic on the North American side at least. The French had seized most of the British owned island of Nevis.

The French fleet was still led by Admiral De Grasse, the victor at the Battle of the Capes that prevented the RN from effecting its rescue of Cornwallis.

The RN was not a spent force however and a fleet of ships under Admiral Sir George Rodney was dispatched from Plymouth to join other British ships in Barbados. He met the French fleet just to the north of Dominica. 36 British ships of line against 30 French ships.

Rodney's ships destroyed seven of the French vessels and captured Admiral De Grasse. This naval engagement is known as the Battle of the Saintes (or Dominica).
This re-established the RN as the pre-eminent naval power in the Atlantic and saved the valuable British colonies in the Caribbean.

None of this could prevent the loss of the 13 colonies but the victory did influence the peace settlement. Britain engaged in separate negotiations with the 13 colonies, France, Spain and Netherlands.

We recall that while attempting to subdue the rebels in the 13 colonies, Britain had also declared war with France in 1778. This war also ended in 1783 and had seen the British and French vie for supremacy in the English Channel, the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean and of course, the Caribbean. Spain and Netherlands eventually came into the fray as well sensing that Britain was vulnerable because of events that transpired in the 13 colonies.

With France bleeding money and with the failure to assist Spain in gaining ownership of Gibraltar from Britain, they agreed to a peace treaty separate from the one that Britain negotiated with the new country, the US.

France and Britain agreed to return properties that they had taken from one another during the war that began in 1778. Britain did recognize the independence of the 13 colonies.

The alliance of Spain, Netherlands and France depended upon a strong partner in France and the loss at Dominica fractured that alliance.

By re-establishing its naval dominance at the Battle of the Saintes, Britain had managed to minimize its losses. The French however were shortly bankrupt and the country would erupt in a violent revolution. As well, Britain's trade links with the US only improved and both saw their economies improve.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 9:19:04 AM
More events from 12-24 to today 12-27! New topics, & comments!?

12-24,

1814 Treaty of Ghent, any of you "gents" up on this?? Comments??

1943, Dwight D Eisenhower is named Supreme Commander of the Allies! Were other countries commanders slighted?? Anyone??

1979 the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan! How will this aid in their demise?? What say you??

12-25, Merry late Christmas!

Anwar Sadat, Humphrey Bogart, & Jimmy Buffett, happy birthday! Forget anyone??

1991 Mikhail Gorbachev resigns, the Soviet Union will collapse within the year!? Did anyone see that coming??

12-26,

1943 the German Cruiser Scharnhorst is sunk by HMS Duke of York! Anyone on the details??

2004 the Indian Ocean Tsunami happens, killing over 200'000 people! Where might the next one be?? Is it possible on the Pacific Coast of N. America, or else where!? Anyone??

BTW 12-26, is Boxing Day in the Commonwealth countries! Happy belated Boxing Day to all of our Commonwealth members! Why do they call it Boxing Day?? Anyone?

Regards,
MD

BTW everyone carry on!!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 9:21:12 AM
Another of your excellent posts, George, thanks !

It helps so much to get a rendition like that, which puts things into that wider perspective.

The dimensions of this epic struggle went so far beyond what had happened at Saratoga and elsewhere in that corner of the North American continent.

I’ve just referred to my Clodfelter volume which enumerates the statistics of the war, and it’s surprising how many French and Spanish sailors perished fighting the Royal Navy: thousands and thousands of them.

It was the determination to protect their Caribbean wealth that led the British to redeploy their forces into the Carolinas, Georgia and Virginia, with disastrous consequences. This was the result of French intervention.

The British were humiliated by their defeat at the hands of their former colonies, but, in the long run, their prospects were improved by the lessons learned and by the prospect of good relations with the USA.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 11:49:10 AM
Quote:
A
The dimensions of this epic struggle went so far beyond what had happened at Saratoga and elsewhere in that corner of the North American continent.





Not according to Zelensky when he addressed the Congress last week. He prominently mentioned Saratoga along with the Battle of the Bulge. And even Jake Tapper, a history major at the Ivy League school, Dartmouth, recounted to the audience the importance of the fighting at Saratoga.

Kosciuszko, Murphy and Morgan would be proud.

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 12:37:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
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The dimensions of this epic struggle went so far beyond what had happened at Saratoga and elsewhere in that corner of the North American continent.





Not according to Zelensky when he addressed the Congress last week. He prominently mentioned Saratoga along with the Battle of the Bulge. And even Jake Tapper, a history major at the Ivy League school, Dartmouth, recounted to the audience the importance of the fighting at Saratoga.

Kosciuszko, Murphy and Morgan would be proud.



Doesn’t that make my point ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 1:00:13 PM
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Phil,

What does Saul David have to say about Yorktown? Does he just write that off as a result of the French naval blockade? That would be understandable.

Gary



Weren't there nearly as many French soldiers on the ground as Continental Army soldiers? Of course the British had their Hessians and in total were greatly outnumbered by the French/Continental Army force. Is it true that the French/American force had nearly a 2:1 advantage in manpower?

Cheers,

George


It's about the Redcoats and not the composition of the opposition. That is why I ask Phil about what Saul David said.

Gary


Hello Gary,
My point was that the French contribution was not only on the seas where the French navy prevented an evacuation by the RN. Those French soldiers played an important part in seizing the British redoubts. I understand now that you want to know whether Saul David gave sole credit to the French Navy for the victory. I apologize for the misdirection.

George


No problem George. Absolutely no need for an apology.

Gary
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 1:12:19 PM
Quote:
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Phil,

What does Saul David have to say about Yorktown? Does he just write that off as a result of the French naval blockade? That would be understandable.

Gary


It's all too brief, I'm afraid, Gary.

He dwells at length on the early fighting, with extensive and interesting renditions about Lexington-Concord, Bunker Hill and Saratoga, filled with captivating descriptions and anecdotes : and then he rushes the narrative. It seems that Saul David set himself an immense task, covering the story of the Redcoats from the middle of the sixteenth century until well into the nineteenth, and , perhaps, feared that he was dwelling too long on the American Revolution. His culmination at Yorktown is rushed and sweeping.

It was now that Cornwallis, relying on reinforcements from New York and British control of the sea, marched into Virginia and established a base at Yorktown, near the mouth of the Chesapeake River. Trapped there by rebel and French forces under the Marquis de Lafayette, he pinned his hopes on Clinton's arrival with a British fleet. But when a superior French fleet under the Comte de Grass forced Rear-Admiral Graves's squadron to withdraw from Chesapeake Bay on 5 September, and soon after Washington's army arrived at Yorktown from the north, after feinting an attack on New York, Cornwallis was doomed. He surrendered on 18 October, the day after the fourth anniversary of Burgoyne's capitulation at Saratoga. pages 297-98

There it is, then.

A couple of pages earlier he writes in truth the war was lost as soon as France signed an alliance with the rebels in early 1778........... Not only was France able to bring the full weight of its naval and military capacity to bear against Britain, it was joined in 1779 by Spain and the Dutch Republic, and together their navies were able to wrest maritime supremacy from the British for the first time in more than a century.

Significant that he refers to the " Rebels", isn't it ?

His statistical reckoning of the war caught my eye : 42,000 British regulars were sent to fight in North America in the war, of whom just under one fourth perished, about 65% from disease. A further 7,500 Germans and 4,000 loyalists also died, giving an aggregate of 21,000 deaths among the 85,000 soldiers who fought for the British. No naval deaths are mentioned. Rebel fatalities were higher, totalling 30,000 deaths from the 100,000 who bore arms. He gives no numbers for the French.

Regards, Phil



Phil,

Thanks for that. That is more than I expected. I'm not surprised that he called the Americans rebels. That is what they were. I see that elsewhere you refer to Michael Clodfelter's book Warfare and Armed Conflicts. I have the 4th edition in pdf format and see that he does not footnote or end-note the sources of his statistics. He does have a nice bibliography. The lack of sources bothers me.

Gary
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
12/27/2022 1:18:38 PM
Quote:
The dimensions of this epic struggle went so far beyond what had happened at Saratoga and elsewhere in that corner of the North American continent.


Certainly this is true. I would recommend a book by Sam Willis titled The Struggle for Sea Power: A Naval History of American Independence. It gives the war in a wider view.

Gary
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
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This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 5:20:14 AM
On December 28, 1958, the Baltimore Colts defeat the New York Giants, 23-17, in overtime in the NFL Championship Game—a back-and-forth thriller that later is billed as "The Greatest Game Ever Played.” The nationally televised championship—the league's first overtime contest—is watched by 45 million viewers and fuels the NFL's meteroric rise in popularity.

"Never has there been a game like this one," Tex Maule of Sports Illustratedwrote. "When there are so many high points, it is not easy to pick the highest."

According to the New York Daily News, gross receipts for the sellout at Yankee Stadium in New York, including television and radio, were $698,646. That resulted in a a $4,718.77 bonus for each Colts player, $3,111.33 for each Giant.

The star of the game was Colts quarterback and future Hall of Famer Johnny Unitas, who completed 26 of 40 passes for 349 yards and a touchdown—impressive statistics in the pre-Super Bowl era.

Near the end of regulation, Unitas led the Colts on a drive from their 14-yard line to tie the score. In overtime, he led a 13-play, 80-yard drive that culminated with a one-yard touchdown run by Alan "The Horse" Ameche.

When asked about the winning drive, in which he completed four of his five passing attempts, Unitas responded with his trademark confidence, “Why shouldn’t I have passed then? After all, you don’t have to risk anything when you know where you’re passing.”

“The Greatest Game Ever Played” was sloppy, with the teams combining for eight fumbles (six lost). But the championship featured 16 future Hall of Famers besides Unitas. Among them were Giants running back (and future TV star) Frank Gifford and assistant coach Vince Lombardi, who went on to lead the Green Bay Packers to five NFL titles.​
====================================================================================================================================================

I recall this game, especially the darkness that enveloped Yankee Stadium as the late afternoon evolved into night.

At a Civil war conference, I struck up a friendship with a Colts fan which has endured to this day.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 8:43:55 AM
Hey NYG,

That was the greatest NFL game up to that time, & I'm glad you made a good friend because of it! But now with the Playoffs and Super bowls. Things have definitely changed! It's up to who's list, & the playoffs seem to hold more weight!? If you Google it, you'll get different best games depending on what groups or criteria used!?

I wouldn't objectively pick one,
I just know it's not my Detroit Lions!? ☺

Go Pro football !
MD

BTW a lot of fans like the college game better!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 8:55:31 AM
The Playoffs are really a second season. The Phillies were the last team to make the playoffs and became NL Champs.

Now the Colts and the Giants won their divisions out-right.





George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 8:57:43 AM
Quote:
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The dimensions of this epic struggle went so far beyond what had happened at Saratoga and elsewhere in that corner of the North American continent.





Not according to Zelensky when he addressed the Congress last week. He prominently mentioned Saratoga along with the Battle of the Bulge. And even Jake Tapper, a history major at the Ivy League school, Dartmouth, recounted to the audience the importance of the fighting at Saratoga.

Kosciuszko, Murphy and Morgan would be proud.




Perhaps your focus is too narrow, NY; too focused on the narrative that has been crafted in your country about its genesis in a civil war which the Ukrainian conflict is not. The rebellion did not occur in an atmosphere of isolation. It was part of an extensive conflict that also impacted European nations like France, Spain and the Netherlands and Britain beyond events in NA.

Why would you not wish to at least acknowledge the broad implications of a rebellion in the 13 colonies to events transpiring elsewhere and how it impacts or is a part of something greater? It makes for a more interesting discussion rather than a flag waving activity. And it is a more effective treatment of historical events.

The rebellion in the 13 colonies was not the only source of conflict. Long simmering tensions between the major powers of Europe also came to the fore and played out at the same time that events unfolded in North America And the British and in particular the RN were not destroyed at Saratoga nor at the Battle of the Capes nor at Yorktown. Britain continued to be a powerful nation even though they were defeated in North America.

Your comment about Zelensky is rather strange. Zelensky did not make reference to Saratoga or the Battle of the Bulge because he was necessarily impressed with these events.

Does his mention of Saratoga somehow impart some greater import to the importance of the battle in a different war?

You cannot be so naive as to think that his speech to Congress was not well crafted to appeal to the American psyche. Zelensky needs American aid and arms and I hope that he gets them but he didn't come to Washington without a need and a goal, hence his references to names and events that appeal to Americans hoping that they will see parallels between events at places like Saratoga, the Battle of the Bulge, and the struggle for the independence of Ukraine. He was seeking empathy and what better way to do that than by praise.

I actually listened to parts of Jake Tapper's analysis of Zelensky's speech. History degree or not, he is a reporter for the CNN cable news network. And I thought that he and other newscasters failed to take a hard nosed look at Zelensky's purpose. Tapper et al were more impressed with Zelensky's insertion of place names and events well known to Americans and they seemed thrilled by it rather than acknowledging that it was an effective means to garner empathy and real support. Tapper failed to address the speech from an historical perspective. He was more interested in how many times Zelensky mentioned or honoured Americans in conflict.

Are you concerned that a post about the RN at the Battle of the Saintes somehow diminishes the accomplishments of the French and Continental soldiers at Yorktown? It cannot but the Battle of the Saintes was one of the last battles associated with the War of Independence and it is significant as it impacted the most important ally of the rebels, France. Certainly the alliance with the 13 colonies was fractured.

Why not discuss it rather than attempt to refocus on Saratoga? The Battle of the Saintes is not a threat to the American narrative about the War of Independence. In fact, it is a part of it and the War of Independence was part of a global conflict.

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 11:28:59 AM
Hiya George,

Actually, Jake Tapper did address Saratoga and its importance. Recall that the French entered the War of American Independence and offered the fledging US aid. Zelensky came here looking for aid. Tapper spent some time on that point.

IIRC, Burgoyne's Army surrendered, and was taken off the map as a fighting force. The RN had already been defeated the year before on Lake Champlain when they and the military invasion from Canada was stopped cold at Valcour Island.

Regarding the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans threw everything they had against the Allies in a last ditch effort to change the outcome of the war. Today the Russians are throwing everything they have against the Ukraine front. And don't forget that both offensives occurred during Christmas.

Regarding Saratoga, Zelensky is comparing this battle with the assault in Bakhmut. He is saying that both battles changed each war for Independence and freedom.

What I see in all of this, is that Zelensky came to the United States seeking aid. He didn't visit Canada, he didn't visit Great Britain, he didn't go to France. He came to the Arsenal of Democracy, just as GB and Canada and France did in 1940.
I don't think that similarity has been talked about.

The Battle of the Saintes is just a diversion.

Cheers, NY Giant




George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 4:11:58 PM
Quote:
Hiya George,

Actually, Jake Tapper did address Saratoga and its importance. Recall that the French entered the War of American Independence and offered the fledging US aid. Zelensky came here looking for aid. Tapper spent some time on that point.

IIRC, Burgoyne's Army surrendered, and was taken off the map as a fighting force. The RN had already been defeated the year before on Lake Champlain when they and the military invasion from Canada was stopped cold at Valcour Island.

Regarding the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans threw everything they had against the Allies in a last ditch effort to change the outcome of the war. Today the Russians are throwing everything they have against the Ukraine front. And don't forget that both offensives occurred during Christmas.

Regarding Saratoga, Zelensky is comparing this battle with the assault in Bakhmut. He is saying that both battles changed each war for Independence and freedom.

What I see in all of this, is that Zelensky came to the United States seeking aid. He didn't visit Canada, he didn't visit Great Britain, he didn't go to France. He came to the Arsenal of Democracy, just as GB and Canada and France did in 1940.
I don't think that similarity has been talked about.

The Battle of the Saintes is just a diversion.

Cheers, NY Giant






So you have decided that the struggle of the Ukraine has direct parallels with a battle of the civil war that took place in North America and a battle of the second world war. Explain that position please. Why do you think that Zelensky chose to allude to two battles that resonate with American citizens and their politicians.

Re: Valcours Island. Are you talking about the gunboat battle on Lake Champlain that took place in 1776? I presume so but your description of the battle would indicate a decisive victory by the fledgling navy led by Benedict Arnold. That would be incorrect, NY. Arnold's fleet was utterly destroyed on Lake Champlain. The rebels had to destroy the fort at Crown Point and headed for Fort Ticonderoga.

What did happen was that the British were delayed and the rebels rushed reinforcements to the area. Gen. Guy Carleton decided that he could not continue through the Hudson River Valley.

We also recall that the Continental Army forces had attempted to invade the colony of Québec which had rebuffed requests from the rebels to join the rebellion less than one year before and had seen their forces destroyed as they attempted to seize Québec City. And they lost one of their commanders, Gen. Montgomery and the other, Benedict Arnold was wounded. And so the British decided to follow the invaders with an attack down the traditional route, Lake Champlain.

The battle of Valcours Island took place in October of 1776 and the sacrifice of the great Brig. General Benedict Arnold did delay the British attack to the point that Carleton did not wish to continue with the campaign season drawing to a close. Why not a little greater effort when you describe events rather than turn everything into a dig or a wave of the flag. That's just trolling.

Re: Zelensky. It is true that he travelled to the US but he has also been in contact with most of the leaders of the EU and because he has been busy fighting a war, they came to him. Germany, Italy, Great Britain, Poland; their leaders have all come to Ukraine. PM Justin Trudeau of Canada came to Ukraine while the war raged. Canadian troops are training Ukrainian soldiers in the UK. Many other countries have given significant aid and have been asked for more by Zelensky.

And he has ventured out to Germany in February of 2022 and to Poland the day after speaking in the US. Of course he relies on the US because it has the money and the arms but he has been busy reminding his other allies that the war is not over. Zelensky actually made a speech to the Parliament of Canada on March 15 of this year but it was a virtual meeting.



The man does his homework, I must say. I lost count of the number of Canadian cities that he had mentioned. He asked us how we would feel if their was an attack on the CN Tower in Toronto.

There are dozens of countries that have contributed millions of dollars and weaponry to Ukraine. None can match the wealth and the quantity of military equipment that the US can provide but you insult all of the nations who have come to the aid of Ukraine with your comments that imply that only the US matters to Zelensky.

Quote:
"The Battle of the Saintes is just a diversion".
A diversion from what NY? Your narrative and mythology perhaps. But it was an important victory because it altered the post war world order and ensured that Britain was still a major power. It damaged the America-France alliance and caused the Americans to distrust the French. It is part of the war but significant and hardly a diversion.

Quote:
just as GB and Canada and France did in 1940.


Somewhat confusing, NY. I note that these three countries had been at war since 1939 against an opponent with the potential to significantly alter the world order. France capitulated quite early on leaving Britain and the Commonwealth to fight this tyranny. And yes they were desperate to see the US involved as a belligerent and not only a provider of arms. That happened with the attack on Pearl Harbor and the declaration of war with the US by Germany. I presume that you are talking about Lend-Lease.

Are you aware of Canada's Mutual Aid programme or the British Commonwealth Air Training Programme (BCATP) which was funded mostly by Canada and delivered in Canada. I recall that FDR called Canada, "the Aerodrome of Democracy".

You seem most unwilling to give any other country credit for what they have done in world conflicts. Is it because you simply do not know or that you do not care?

Good grief man, the sacrifices made by the victors in WWII were great and not taken just by the US.

We acknowledge the wealth of the US. We acknowledge the efforts of Americans in past conflicts in allied efforts. You could afford to show the same respect to all of the countries around the world who are contributing to the Ukrainian war effort.





George
NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 4:28:16 PM
Hi George,

Your words..."So you have decided that the struggle of the Ukraine has direct parallels with a battle of the civil war that took place in North America and a battle of the second world war." The Confederate Army only got as far North as Gettysburg in our Civil War. The Battle of Saratoga was in our American Revolution.

IIRC, Carlton retreated all the way back to Canada, and did not attack Fort Ticonderoga in 1776. What ever gains the British had obtained, were wasted,

Where did Zelensky mention the Battle of the Saintes?

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 4:54:12 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

Your words..."So you have decided that the struggle of the Ukraine has direct parallels with a battle of the civil war that took place in North America and a battle of the second world war." The Confederate Army only got as far North as Gettysburg in our Civil War. The Battle of Saratoga was in our American Revolution.

IIRC, Carlton retreated all the way back to Canada, and did not attack Fort Ticonderoga in 1776. What ever gains the British had obtained, were wasted,

Where did Zelensky mention the Battle of the Saintes?






The Revolutionary War was a civil war. How could it be anything else? Don't be glib. I know when Saratoga took place and in which war.

NY you made a statement that the British were defeated at the Battle of Valcour Island. That is simply not factual. They won that battle. It was a tactical victory. Strategically, not at all. You were just wrong, NY.

Quote:
Where did Zelensky mention the Battle of the Saintes?


This sentence has nothing to do with the discussion.

Why would he mention that battle? He was trying to stroke the sensibilities of his audience, his American audience. And so he or his aides do their homework and find a couple of events that resonate in the hearts and minds of those whom he wished to impress.

The Battle of the Saintes was a part of the Revolutionary War with significant ramifications to the peace settlement. So again, a diversion from what, NY?




Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 814
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This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 9:17:34 PM
Zelensky is a clever orator and has tailored his speeches quite cleverly to fit his audience. And he certainly has played up to the US's willingness to fight an age old enemy in Russia.
Hence Biden's almost open checkbook in military aid and money to assist the Ukraine 'struggle' against the invading Russians.
He will continue to play on this as the US is seen as a strong contributor with very deep pockets compared to other nations.

When he spoke to Australia, he quoted Gallipoli and the Kokoda Track themes to tug on Australian heart strings. However he misjudged his audience in that we are naturally a cynical race and his speech fell far short of what he had hoped to achieve from our Government and the Australian people. We did take on extra refugees which he was dismissive about. Money and toys were more important to him.
Australian military aid and money has been substantial but far short of what Zelensky wanted from us. Although contrary to original plans, we have sent military instructors and technical advisors to assist in training and operating our equipment predominantly occurring in the UK.
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 814
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
12/28/2022 9:19:34 PM
Zelensky is a clever orator and has tailored his speeches quite cleverly to fit his audience. And he certainly has played up to the US's willingness to fight an age old enemy in Russia.
Hence Biden's almost open checkbook in military aid and money to assist the Ukraine 'struggle' against the invading Russians.
He will continue to play on this as the US is seen as a strong contributor with very deep pockets compared to other nations.

When he spoke to Australia, he quoted Gallipoli and the Kokoda Track themes to tug on Australian heart strings. However he misjudged his audience in that we are naturally a cynical race and his speech fell far short of what he had hoped to achieve from our Government and the Australian people. We did take on extra refugees which he was dismissive about. Money and toys were more important to him.
Australian military aid and money has been substantial but far short of what Zelensky wanted from us. Although contrary to original plans, we have sent military instructors and technical advisors to assist in training and operating our equipment predominantly occurring in the UK.
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