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George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2022 12:24:23 PM
Quote:
1870 last day allowed for US silver coins to circulate in Canada! why? What say you??


The new Dominion of Canada, created in 1867 was on the decimal system. Prior to that the British did not approve of a move to the decimal system. In fact, the Province of Canada, and other colonies had petitioned to switch from pounds, shillings and pence. IN 1851, the Province of Canada passed a law that would require them to keep their government books in a decimal system.

But the British would not approve of the law because they had dreams of a pounds, shilling and pence system to be used across the Empire. In 1853, a Currency Act for the Province of Canada was passed and that permitted the use of both currency systems. So we had British coins and US coins considered as legal tender and US currency was to be accepted at par with British currency.

So plenty of trade with the US meant that there was also plenty of US coin in circulation. The US Civil War saw a great increase in US currency as US agents purchased products in Canada.

US silver was collected by Canadian banks and shipped back to the US for sale. Banks were losing money on the deal as silver was devalued in comparison to gold. Don't ask me to explain that but the Canadian government reimbursed the banks if they took a loss.
Millions of dollars in US coin were shipped back.

Canada then issued its own silver coins. Initially there weren't enough coins in circulation so the government issued some 25 cent paper script that were called, "shin plasters." These were redeemable for gold.

And to ensure that US coins didn't flood the country again, US currency used was worth 20% less than the Canadian coins. The US coins were actually worth more if their bullion value was considered but the devaluation had the effect to keep them out of the country.

British coins were also eliminated. Canada was a new country and it was felt that it was necessary to establish an independent Canadian currency.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2022 7:14:44 PM
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3 perpetual sites, check for todays topics.?
cheers,
MD

2-12 in history, Like in 1554, Lady Jane Grey is executed of treason after only 9 days as Queen! What's up with that!?? Comments anyone?

1733 Georgia founded in Savannah, by James Oglethorpe! Hey I'm there, this week! Awesome historical town!!

1777 Captain James Cook arrives in New Zealand! I believe he losses some of his crew to cannibals? Anyone??

1870 last day allowed for US silver coins to circulate in Canada! why? What say you??

BTW, Later I had a scheme, where I would take Canadian coins and circulate them in the US for full US exchange value, by mixing them with US coins! No one notices coins, & I was able to pull it off! Just a kid back then I felt quite the genius!?? ☺

1873 the US goes on the Gold standard! No inflation with that??

1879 the British are annillated in the Battle of Isandlwana to the Zulus! The news reaches London! What commander was responsible for this fiasco?? Comments on this! Anyone??

Got to go heading to the great city of Charleston, sc.! Historically speaking sadly, much of it's wealth, built by the efforts of enslaved people?! Comments anyone??

See ya later!
MD

BTW some other good discussion events here! Comments anyone??




Thanks George,

For clearing up the early US Canadian currency & coin situation!

MD

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2022 8:09:08 PM
MD, you note: Quote:
1941 the Desert Fox arrives in N. Africa, his Panzers move quickly forward! What factors cause him to falter, & lose favor with Hitler?? Anyone??
His Afrika Korps brought better, newer equipment to the North Africa campaign at a time when British and Commonwealth units had be stripped of the best of their leaders, at least some of their most effective troops, and a large part of their support train to Churchill’s promise to support Greece. Rommel was a fine field commander; he was excellent at applying Blitzkrieg tactics, and was a skilled Panzer commander. Executed properly, those tactics worked effectively in North Africa. Yes, his health was impacted (if not impaired) by his appointments, so he spent some time absent from his troops at crucial points.

He was also, IIRC, an ardent Nazi through most of his career, which was not by any means a norm in the German Officer Corps. Hence, he was considered for commands which may have been beyond his natural capabilities or level of experience. In his defence, he seemed to have been effective when given command of a section of Festung Europa, building fortifications and improving the defensive strength against invasion.

IIRC, it was the von Stauffenberg plot that did Rommel in. He could be sufficiently linked to that attempt on Hitler’s life that he was in deadly peril. And six weeks into Overlord, having a popular, politically correct officer of his rank executed would do the German war effort no good at all. He was left in an empty room with a loaded Luger.

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1945 Eisenhower picked as Supreme Allied Commander over Monty The Brit. wasn't happy!?
Did he have a beef?? Any Monty fans out there??

Well, let’s remember for a start that Eisenhower was chosen as head of SHAEF in 1943. I’m not at all a “Monty fan”, but rather dislike thinking about generals like part of a sportscast. Ask me whether Monty or Patton was the GOAT, and I’ll ask you when they played football.

I think they made the correct choice with Eisenhower. His career path had been directed towards administration, cooperation and alliance-building for some time. His mentors were right, as it happens; he was a brilliant choice to bring the war to an end. Monty couldn’t have done it; Patton couldn’t have done it; Bradley couldn’t have done it.

IMHO, Monty was at kindness the best of a bad lot in the British/Commonwealth contingent. It’s been years since I looked at El Alamein, but it seemed to me at the time that Monty’s plan of attack owed more to Passchendaele than to WW2.

Monty was given huge responsibility as chief of ground forces during Overlord. IMHO, he failed. Only one army met its goals on D-Day (and, yes, it was the Canadians), and what was supposed to be a D+20 success ran for at least twice the time. After which ground command was handed over to Bradley. He was given one more chance to demonstrate his capabilities as head of command (but under Ike), and that was when he convinced his superiors to attempt a rapid thrust into the Ruhr. We now call it “A Bridge Too Far”, but it wasn’t the number of bridges that was the issue. It was Monty’s lack of understanding of how (German) blitzkrieg worked, as he proposed a blitzkreig. A single route of assault; no secondary supply routes; weak or non-existent intelligence about enemy forces. Jesus! All troops involved in that fiasco fought well and honourably, and demonstrated how tough western troops could be in defeat. But as an assault, “Market Garden” was less than well planned, and less than well executed. And, I’m sorry, but this was not a failure of troops of desire or anything but a failure of military acumen. Monty proved once more that he couldn’t read a modern battlefield.

Did Monty (and Patton) do some amazing deeds as well? I’m not sure. I think both Patton and Monty used their troops amazingly effectively during the Battle of the Bulge. My question is, should we have expected anything more from to the two most recognized but almost fatally egocentric generals in the ETO?

I don’t feel it urgent to attribute many allied victories to their generals-in-command. That is the general’s job, IIUC. But I think it possible to attribute a defeat to a general, when his assessments and evaluations are deemed so inaccurate that there was no chance of success.

Gonna stop there. I think DDE was a great choice for the job he as given. I think Monty would have been a disaster.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2022 8:14:06 AM
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3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2-13 in history.?
cheers,
MD

Brian,

I agree with you on both topics certainly the Desert Fox was a favorite of Hitler, & A great Tank Commander. Until he got mixed up even remotely in the assassination plot to kill Adolf! Hitler killed close to 90 of his generals, probably helping the Allies win more, than any other single person!?

BTW One of the best portrayal of Rommel was George Mason's, in the Desert Fox! He was awesome! Anyone else think so??

Also I like Ike when discussing his appointment as Supreme Allied Commander! He did succeed after all!?

Check out the read mores for more new topics!?

1920 Switzerland is recognized as perpetually neutral by the League of Nations! Are they really neutral? & does it effect both World Wars? What say you??

Just 1 event! Do you have more??

Thanks,
MD

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2022 12:11:56 PM
Quote:


IMHO, Monty was at kindness the best of a bad lot in the British/Commonwealth contingent.
Brian G



Brian,

Would you describe Bill Slim as part of " a bad lot" ?

In regard to Rommel, it's significant that he - along with Model - lacked the aristocratic "von", which might have made them both more attractive to Hitler.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2022 12:43:34 PM
Hello Brian,

I think that your assessment or dismissal of Montgomery as a fighting general was overly harsh. He was known as a superb trainer of soldiers and his influence on our Canadian army was significant if only that he was asked by Crerar to assess the quality of his officers. Monty felt that you did not blame the soldiers for inadequate performance and that it was necessary to place well educated officers in charge to train the men. Monty visited all of the Canadian divisions and battalions and he gave assessments right down to the RMS and sergeants. The result was the dismissal of leaders at many levels in the Canadian command structure. Monty would eventually hope to have dismissed Crerar as the head of the Canadian Army but he understood the implications of that on Canadian sovereignty.

MD's question was a comparison of Montgomery to Eisenhower with respect to fitness to command. I too agree that Ike was probably the better choice to be the administrator of a grand allied army. But Monty's whole focus was on the conduct of military operations in war and in that I would suggest that he was a better choice to command the land forces on D-day than was Eisenhower who of course was the Supreme Commander.

There was a Montgomery method to fighting a war and I think that he deserves more credit than he has been given.

Monty showed his mettle at Dunkirk which he called an embarrassing defeat. His 3rd Divisions was well prepared to disengage from the fight when ordered. Monty was a stickler for detail in training and his division made a 25 mile march in the dead of night to go behind three other divisions to assume an important defensive position before the next dawn. He had been ordered by Brooke to do so. Because he forced his men to train to fight at night, they pulled off the deployment perfectly.

He also made observations about the Germans and noted that they demonstrated tactical superiority but he noted that they did not like concentrated artillery fire. Monty was a great proponent of the use of concentrated artillery brought to the fight with expediency and that was because as a general, he did not feel that mens' lives should be wasted when effective artillery could be used.

And he also learned that his belief that soldiers should practice battle manoeuvres as much as possible was sound. Preparation was key. He did not believe that his job was to direct every aspect of the battle and that that was up to officers farther down the line whom he hoped would think for themselves and take the initiative when available.

He assumed command of 8th Army in 1942, I always thought that Monty conducted an intelligent battle but I am not an expert. I would be interested to know why you compared this battle to Passchendaele, or did you? Montgomery actually employed features like massive artillery and all arms battle with co-ordination between air and army at El Alamein, did he not?

Montgomery was also instrumental in changing the plans of the D-day landings as he felt that the initial plans did not have sufficient numbers of men landing. I understand that the allied armies did not achieve their objectives initially but the Germans had something to say about that. How much did the failure of heavy bombers to deliver loads on target at Omaha contribute to the suffering of those Americans soldiers?

The failure to break out from the Caen sector earlier than anticipated had a lot to do with the arrival of German panzer units and I acknowledge that the British/Canadian attempts to break out were stymied by a failure to exploit situations when the opportunity arose or to engage in piecemeal battalion attacks when a larger effort was needed. The raw Canadians failed to do that on a couple of occasions.

Monty ordered Crerar to break out finally toward Falaise with Operation Totalize. It was actually a Guy Simonds brain child and was a creative and bold stroke. But even then, when phase 2 was supposed to begin, Simonds stayed with his plan to pause while bombers hit the German panzer division in front of the Canadians. That Simonds did not continue to press the attack when he saw that the Germans were completely disorganized was on him, not Monty. Phase 1 had delivered the breakthrough as acknowledged by Von Kluge. But Simonds did not alter his battle plan when an opportunity to exploit was presented. And the Panzer division in front of him was not even there. Simonds did not know that. The four hour delay allowed the Germans to regroup. His superior, Gen. Crerar should have ordered Simonds to press but Crerar had no battle experience. Do we blame Monty for this?

I believe that the approaches to Antwerp should have been a priority but they were not as Monty felt that his Operation Market Garden had an opportunity to end the war early. Did that operation fail only because of Montgomery's planning or do other officers wear goat horns?

We also must credit Montgomery for the outstanding work of the 21st Army Group in the Battle for the Rhineland and the crossing of the Rhine. I will add that historian John A. English points out that this battle demonstrated that the Canadian Army under the tutelage of Monty had matured and become a force to be respected. Montgomery also recognized Crerar's deficiencies and provided him with two of his finest British corps commanders who played important roles in this battle.

So I feel that we would have to deconstruct every battle in the war to determine whether Montgomery delivered.

John A. English feels that Montgomery was a quality commander and certainly the Canadian Army benefitted from its association with him. English served with the Canadian military and he has written another book that was highly critical of Canadian officers throughout the war. He feels that when the Canadians faltered it was because they had failed to adhere to the Montgomery doctrine.

Cheers,

George




Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2022 10:18:47 AM
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3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2-14 in history.?

For example, 1929 the St Valentine's Massacre! BTW you don't want to forget your wife on Valentines Day!

1945 the Fire Bombing of Dresden! Comments on this mission!? Anyone??

Any other events??

cheers,
MD


Thanks,
MD


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2022 10:12:10 PM
MD, Dresden – like Hamburg 18 months earlier – was subjected to a combination of attacks by RAF and US bombers, over (IIRC) three days. But the initial raid, in two waves, with the second doing the most damage, was RAF Bomber Command’s raid on 13 February 1945. Please note: 13 February.

Dresden was not an isolated raid. It was part of “Operation Thunderclap”, an air assault agreed to at Yalta against major transportation and communication centres such as Berlin, Leipzig, Chemnitz and Dresden. The Soviet Army was making vast inroads in Germany, but had nothing like the strike power from the air offered by the western Allies. Air assault, it was assumed, would further cripple Germany’s capability to pursue the war.

I have read nothing to convince me that there was anything unusual about the assault on Dresden, though this is one of the most notorious and the most discussed of assaults of the Bomber war. It was ugly. Destructive. It was probably more destructive than expected, because Hamburg had much better air defences and much more capable CD operations. But it was, in truth, just another successful RAF bomber strike. It was what RAF Bomber Command hoped to achieve every night.

WSC had committed himself to Thunderclap, though he attempted to distance himself when the outcry over Dresden’s destruction began to be heard. IMHO, this was a colossal error on his part.

How bad was the assault on Dresden? Nobody knows. By this time, Nazi record-keeping was less efficient than it had been earlier. In addition, Dresden – having gone through the war without a single major raid – did not have an effective structure in place to record and/or verify damage, losses and the like. I have read estimates of the dead ranging from as low as 25,000 to as high as 50,000. There are higher claims, but those have largely been rejected as inflated for reasons of propaganda, or for other nasty reasons.

How about the RAF BC attack on 13 Feb, and the USAAF attack on 14 Feb? Taken from Bomber Command War Diaries, 796 Lancasters and 9 Mossies dropped 2660 tons (1478 tons of HE; 1182 ton of incendiaries). The first wave was by 244 Lancs of 5 Group, and was less than perfect; bad weather was still hampering marking, and 5 Group were using their own version of target marking. The second raid arrived 3 hours later, all-Lancaster strike force from elements of 1, 3, 6 and 8 Groups, and dropped using standard PFF markings in a much clearer sky. The 529 Lancs of this wave probably started the firestorm which created the death toll and the destruction.

311 USAAF B-17s bombed Dresden the next day, dropping 771 tons. This raid targeted the railway yards, but supporting P-51s were authorized to strafe streets and roads to further impact German support services.

Lots to talk about, as always. But it is worth remembering that a group of US PoWs were in Dresden at the time of the assault and firestorm. Kurt Vonnegut, one of those PoWs, gave us the biting masterpiece of Slaughterhouse Five. I love Vonnegut, and would recommend a read of his fantasy memoir.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
MikeMeech
 UK
Posts: 528
Joined: 2012
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2022 12:12:14 PM
Quote:
MD, Dresden – like Hamburg 18 months earlier – was subjected to a combination of attacks by RAF and US bombers, over (IIRC) three days. But the initial raid, in two waves, with the second doing the most damage, was RAF Bomber Command’s raid on 13 February 1945. Please note: 13 February.

Dresden was not an isolated raid. It was part of “Operation Thunderclap”, an air assault agreed to at Yalta against major transportation and communication centres such as Berlin, Leipzig, Chemnitz and Dresden. The Soviet Army was making vast inroads in Germany, but had nothing like the strike power from the air offered by the western Allies. Air assault, it was assumed, would further cripple Germany’s capability to pursue the war.

I have read nothing to convince me that there was anything unusual about the assault on Dresden, though this is one of the most notorious and the most discussed of assaults of the Bomber war. It was ugly. Destructive. It was probably more destructive than expected, because Hamburg had much better air defences and much more capable CD operations. But it was, in truth, just another successful RAF bomber strike. It was what RAF Bomber Command hoped to achieve every night.

WSC had committed himself to Thunderclap, though he attempted to distance himself when the outcry over Dresden’s destruction began to be heard. IMHO, this was a colossal error on his part.

How bad was the assault on Dresden? Nobody knows. By this time, Nazi record-keeping was less efficient than it had been earlier. In addition, Dresden – having gone through the war without a single major raid – did not have an effective structure in place to record and/or verify damage, losses and the like. I have read estimates of the dead ranging from as low as 25,000 to as high as 50,000. There are higher claims, but those have largely been rejected as inflated for reasons of propaganda, or for other nasty reasons.

How about the RAF BC attack on 13 Feb, and the USAAF attack on 14 Feb? Taken from Bomber Command War Diaries, 796 Lancasters and 9 Mossies dropped 2660 tons (1478 tons of HE; 1182 ton of incendiaries). The first wave was by 244 Lancs of 5 Group, and was less than perfect; bad weather was still hampering marking, and 5 Group were using their own version of target marking. The second raid arrived 3 hours later, all-Lancaster strike force from elements of 1, 3, 6 and 8 Groups, and dropped using standard PFF markings in a much clearer sky. The 529 Lancs of this wave probably started the firestorm which created the death toll and the destruction.

311 USAAF B-17s bombed Dresden the next day, dropping 771 tons. This raid targeted the railway yards, but supporting P-51s were authorized to strafe streets and roads to further impact German support services.

Lots to talk about, as always. But it is worth remembering that a group of US PoWs were in Dresden at the time of the assault and firestorm. Kurt Vonnegut, one of those PoWs, gave us the biting masterpiece of Slaughterhouse Five. I love Vonnegut, and would recommend a read of his fantasy memoir.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G



It is of interest to note the US 8th AF raids on Dresden; 14th Feb - 311 B-17s of 1AD dropped 771 tons, 15th Feb - 210 B-17s of 1AD dropped 462 tons, 2nd March - 406 B-17s of 3AD dropped 1080 tons, 7th April - 428 B-17s of 1AD dropped 1276 tons. So still a target until the end of the war (or the Red Army arrived at the target).
Data from 'The Mighty Eighth War Diary' by Roger Freeman.

Mike
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2022 7:41:48 PM
Mike, great expansion of the topic. Thanks for that! I had known about the 15 Feb raid, and consider it part of the general assault, but was unaware of the two further assaults (did the USAAF call raids a mission, or was a mission more descriptive of a single a/c attack?) later in the war. Do you have any explanation for this continued assault by the USAAF, or for the abrupt discontinuation of RAF BC’s campaign against Dresden?

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G

Note to self: by Freeman’s volume!
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2022 8:58:26 PM
Brian,

A report by the U.S. Air Force titled Why Dresden was Bombed: A Review of the Reasons and Reactions was published in 1954. It lists the six raids by the U.S. Air Force on Dresden. Comment on the six raids starts at the bottom of page 12 with a table of the raids on page 13.

[Read More]

Gary
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2022 9:22:45 PM
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3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2-16 in history.?

1804 USN invades Tripoli Harbor, sinks it's own ship!? What happened??

1838 hundreds of Dutch settlers killed by Zulus! What's that about? Anyone??

1861 11 yr old girl tell Lincoln to wear a beard, he follows her advice! He becomes President, keeps it! Comments on the humanity of Abe!? Anyone??

1862 USS Grant capture Ft. Donalson, 12,00 Tens surrender! Big turning point in the wesr!? Comments??

1916 German Official says Germany will pay restitution for the sinking of Lusitania! How did that go over?? What say you??

1923 King Tuts Tomb opened, Howard Carter & others cursed & later die! Do you believe there was a curse?? What say you??

1982 Ocean Ridge Oil Rig lost off Newfoundland 84 die! How did this catastrophe happen?? Anyone??

Carry on,
MD

BTW Bri, thanks for explaining Dresden's bombings! More complicated & destructive than I realized!?



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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/16/2022 7:13:23 AM
Quote:
1916 German Official says Germany will pay restitution for the sinking of Lusitania! How did that go over?? What say you??


In the earlier months of the war, German raiders would allow passengers and crew aboard merchant ships to get into the lifeboats before the destruction of the ship. But at the time of the sinking of the Lusitania, Germany had announced that the seas around Britain were now a war zone and that any allied shipping was subject to destruction without warning.

Germany had actually sent this message to neutral countries but it was ignored.

When Lusitania went down, Germany immediately went into damage control. A German representative in the US tried to explain why Lusitania was a legitimate target and said that Lusitania was armed and was carrying ammunition. Lusitania had been and was still being modified for war despite being a luxury liner but on the day of the sinking, she was carrying thousands of civilian passengers. She had been inspected prior to departure from a US port and no weapons were on board. There was ammunition however.

Does that make Lusitania a legitimate target?

Germany received criticism from many quarters of the world and even at home. The British propaganda arm had a field day and used the tragedy to stoke up hatred of Germany.

The event was debated in the US with some politicians suggesting that Britain should be encouraged to reduce its blockade of German ports that was causing food shortages in Germany. Others said that it was time for war.

Pres. Wilson did not want to go to war but he did tell Germany that US citizens were expected to have the right of safe passage and that if any more passenger ships were sunk, the US would regard that at a provocative act. The British press thought that the US response was tepid at best with suggestions that Wilson was cowardly

Germany reversed its policy of unrestricted submarine warfare. Certainly, it did not wish to see the US enter the war.

The sinking of Lusitania is often cited as one of the provocations that led to the entry of the US into the war. If so, it still took two years before the US made the decision to enter and so I suggest that the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare and the Zimmerman cable to Mexico that proposed a Germany/Mexico alliance had more to do with the US entry than did Lusitania.

As for reparations for the loss of Lusitania, didn't that happen well after the war, in the early '20's? And those reparations were the result of a decision by some sort of international tribunal prompted by civil court cases brought by individual families of victims. That's what I think that I remember. Perhaps someone else will weigh in.



Cheers,

George





Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/17/2022 9:04:43 PM
Gary, interesting reading. As with Mike’s reference, I’m going to have to get more US source material. Thanks for offering the link. It made a good and challenging read.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/18/2022 10:48:59 AM
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3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2-18 in history!

1519 Cortez takes to Mexico over the Indian Civilization! How was he able to conquer it with only a few soldiers? Anyone??

1688 Quakers protest slavery! Why were they so anti slavery so early on?? Anyone??

1861, Jefferson Davis becomes president of the Confederacy! Who would you have picked? Comments??

1865 the Union takes over multiple Southern Forts! Why are they starting to dominate the Rebs?? What say you??

1884 Sir Gordon occupies Khartoum! Were the British being imperialistic?? What happens there? Anyone on this??

1915 the Germans blockade Britain! Was this even close to being effective?? Comments??

1927 US and Canada open diplomatic relations! What was this all about?? Anyone??

1932 Japan taking over SE Asia, why couldn't they be stopped!? What say you??

Any other events? For 2-18 ?
Lots to discuss, any new events??

cheers,
MD

BTW George, Thanks for the Lusitania history lesson!

Thanks,
MD



----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/18/2022 3:36:15 PM
Quote:
1927 US and Canada open diplomatic relations! What was this all about?? Anyone??


Canada was established as a Dominion within the British Empire in 1867. From that point on the Canadian government would lobby for greater control over its foreign affairs.

Of great importance for Canada was the relationship with the US. And so 1927 was an important year in that Canada was finally acknowledged as an autonomous nation with respect to its foreign affairs, in Washington. However, I will suggest that it wasn't until WWII that the US acknowledged that Canada was an independent nation

There had been bilateral agreements between Canada and the US prior to 1927 and that includes a fisheries agreement between the two countries in 1923. This treaty, called "The Halibut Treaty" was the first treaty that was independently negotiated and signed by the Canadian government. Great Britain was not involved.

So in 1927 Canadian Vincent Massey presented his credentials in Washington and was recognized as Canadian Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary. The US opened a Legation in Ottawa at the same time.

Note that neither Massey nor the US legate were ambassadors. The position of legate is one step below.

Note that the US would raise its representative in Ottawa to the position of ambassador in 1943 during the war. Step by step, Canada and the Dominions were establishing their independence.

The recognition of Vincent Massey in 1927 did not happen without specific developments between the British Dominions and the crown. In 1926 the British Empire leaders attended an Imperial Conference in London. And on the agenda was the autonomy that the British Dominions including Canada had been demanding. Canada has seen some interference by the British Governor-General Julian Byng, in the politics of Canada. Byng and the PM Mackenzie King had recently butted heads over a Parliamentary procedural matter and the PM would push for greater autonomy.

WW1 had seen incredible contributions by the Dominions to the British war effort and the sacrifices made gave impetus to the desire for autonomy. And so the result of the Imperial Conference was a declaration by the President of the Imperial Council, Lord Balfour who had presented a report on these demands for greater autonomy for the Dominions.

The Balfour Declaration said in reference to Great Britain and the Dominions (Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and the Irish Free State.):

Quote:
“They are autonomous Communities within the British Empire, equal in status, in no way subordinate one to another in any aspect of their domestic or external affairs, though united by a common allegiance to the Crown, and freely associated as members of the British Commonwealth of Nations.”


The Balfour Declaration was a critical document in Canada's evolution to full independence. It led directly to the Statute of Westminster in 1931 that affirmed the statements in the Balfour declaration.

But the immediate result of the declaration was that Canada sent its representative to Washington in 1927.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/18/2022 7:30:02 PM
MD, you note: Quote:
1688 Quakers protest slavery! Why were they so anti slavery so early on?? Anyone??

Jeez, I hope somebody answers this one! It would seem to me the question is upside-down. Why were others pro-slavery so long?

I’m not a Quaker, but freely admit I attended meetings at Victoria’s Meeting House for over a year. I would argue that their more accurate name, “Society of Friends”, comes close to explaining their early and (I expect) consistent distaste for slavery of any kind. But in truth, I would expect they viewed slavery as simply another unacceptable example of class arrogance, which was anathema to their beliefs. Their name came from a vision of a meeting of humans all equal in the eyes of God. This was a spiritual reality to Friends, not just a turn of phrase.

IIUC, the early years of the Pennsylvania colony had better relations with indigenous groups than other colonies; this, I believe, is attributed to Quaker values informing the laws of that colony. Sir William Penn was both a friend of Charles II and a Quaker. It may be that Charles II granted Penn the colony in North America in hopes he would strip England of the Quaker sect.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G

PS: Quick explanation of what I called class arrogance, and which also contains an alternate anecdote for the term “Quaker”. In the 17th century, post-Interregnum period, one means of deferring to those considered socially above you was to remove your hat in their presence. That’s not arrogance so much as custom, I guess, but many in Society of Friends refused to do this. At one meeting, when a Friend was brought before a senior official and refused to doff his hat, the official became angry and asked if the Friend didn’t quake with fear at the anger he must feel from his betters. The Friend’s reply was that he quaked before no man, just as he doffed his hat to no man. Those deferences he researved for God.

B
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/19/2022 9:20:54 AM
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3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2-19 in history! On 2-18 the following ocured!

1519 Cortez takes to Mexico over the Indian Civilization! How was he able to conquer it with only a few soldiers? Anyone??

1688 Quakers protest slavery! Why were they so anti slavery so early on?? Thanks Bri.,

1861, Jefferson Davis becomes president of the Confederacy! Who would you have picked? Comments??

1865 the Union takes over multiple Southern Forts! Why are they starting to dominate the Rebs?? What say you??

1884 Sir Gordon occupies Khartoum! Were the British being imperialistic?? What happens there? Anyone on this??

1915 the Germans blockade Britain! Was this even close to being effective?? Comments??

1927 US and Canada open diplomatic relations! What was this all about?? Thanks George!

1932 Japan taking over SE Asia, why couldn't they be stopped!? What say you??

Any other events? For 2-18 ?
Lots to discuss, any new events??

cheers,
MD

BTW George, Thanks for the Early US Canada history lesson! & Bri., I certainly agree that the Quakers led the Anti- slavery movement in the US! Wasn't Garrison a Quaker?? Anyone?

Thanks, is Covid on the way out??
Regards,
MD



Also today in history over 823 British Bombers attacked Berlin! How many returned & how successful was this mission? Was Germany's air defenses on the down swing this late in the war?? Comments please!?


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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/19/2022 9:31:08 AM
Quote:


1519 Cortez takes to Mexico over the Indian Civilization! How was he able to conquer it with only a few soldiers? Anyone??



Hi Dave,

He may have had limited numbers of European troops, but he was able to count upon legions of native warriors who had no love for the Aztecs. The Europeans he brought were well armed and seasoned; they were ruthless.

Cheers,

Colin

P.S excellent answer on the Quakers, Brian.
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/20/2022 12:14:28 AM
On this day in 1942, FDR signed the executive order for the incarceration of those of Japanese descent living in the US. I hope his decision caused him lack of sleep for the rest of his days.

I can understand US civilian anger with the Japanese, who attacked PH without warning (but perhaps not without provocation). But to act on the assumption that anyone of Japanese ancestry was automatically an enemy was an absurdity without justification. To assume any person with Japanese facial features was a “danger” to the US was utter nonsense.

The first round-up occurred on Bainbridge Island, 30 minutes by ferry from Seattle, on 30 March 1942. The US Army, complete with fixed bayonets, conducted the imprisonment. Some 270 folks of Japanese descent – some three or perhaps four generations of Islanders – were stripped of their rights and entered incarceration. Their neighbours – no all, but in large numbers – came to say goodbye as best they could, offering hugs of goodbye and promises to protect the land the incarcerated owned.

Canada introduced a similar program which was just as draconian and just as unjustified. I don’t know how non-Japanese Canadians responded, because I haven’t found local sources of contemporary history. I do know that many non-Japanese Canadians gained financially from the round-up of Japanese-Canadians, and were happy to do so.

Are North Americans congenitally unable to feel shame for their actions? Because IMHO the treatment of Japanese was shameful.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/20/2022 5:32:32 PM
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3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2-20 in history.? For example,

1823 RN Captain James Weddell explores new areas of Antarctica how would you rate him as an explorer??

1861 the Confederate Navy is formed, how formidable was it!??.. Comments??

1869 KKK crisis in Tennessee! How prominent was the Klan at this time? Comments on why the Klan is so popular? Anyone??

1939 20,000 attend Nazi rally in Madison Square it's the Bind American Germans! Scary were they a threat? What say you??

1827 Race Riots in Cincinnati cause 1000 blacks to leave for lower Canada! What happened to them? Comments??

1832 Asian Cholera reaches Quebec! @ 6,000 Canadian people killed! Brought by the Irish!? What's up with that? Anyone??

1944 Battle for Eniwetok, US loses 37 the Japanese over 800 killed! How can this be?? Anyone??

Thanks,
MD



----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/20/2022 10:18:24 PM
On this day in 1962, US Astronaut John Glenn became the first US person to orbit the earth, completing three orbits aboard Freedom 7, just 10 months after Yuri Gagarin, a Soviet Cosmonaut, became the first human to orbit the earth (April 12, 1961) in Vostok 1. Gagarin’s orbital flight came before NASA’s first sub-orbital flight with Alan Shepard aboard (and John Glenn as backup).

That was a fascinating and frightening time, beginning with the successful launch of Sputnik I on 4 Oct 1957. God, the labels that kicked around! Space Race! Education Gap! Technological Gap! The USSR had caught the US by surprise, clearly demonstrating that US complacency concerning its technological leadership was in error. As I remember, it was kind of a technological and scientific Pearl Harbor.

What John Glenn did – hell, what Alan Shepard and Yuri Gagarin did, what numerous others (men and women) did – was not just incredible but daring. These people were not just leaders in their field, but had the guts and faith to take that step off a flat world. Primitive, slow equipment; rudimentary support; sketchy communication – sure, the best available at the time, but still bloody primitive – were par for the course. These folks at least demonstrated that mankind had the ability to lift life off the surface of an increasingly threatened and sordid Earth.

I hate national holidays. I’m not convinced that international holidays have much meaning. But I see the need for a day in recognition of the pioneers of the Space Age. And the first flight of Sputnik seems to me an obvious choice.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/21/2022 3:27:57 AM
Ils ne passeront pas !

They shall not pass !

Well, this day must never pass without marking the start of the Battle of Verdun in 1916.

Nothing new to add : a small area of North East France - a sector that extended for a frontage of just a few miles - was pulverised for month after month by tens of millions of shells, which left the battlefield a wilderness of shell holes and created a Golgotha of the putrefying human debris of hundreds of thousands of victims.

Another French rallying cry from this battle - Courage, on les aura ! which might mean, Don’t worry, we’ll get them ! - is also part of the folklore.

Verdun is to France what Stalingrad is to Russia. The latter was renamed Volgograd in an attempt to repudiate the memory of a notorious dictator, but there’s a popular demand to rehabilitate the original name as Putin reasserts Russian claims to glory.

Verdun never carried the same political baggage, apart from its association with Petain, the hero to zero saviour turned collaborationist.

Verdun and Stalingrad rival each other as counterparts from their respective world wars, with their identification with sustained and intense battlefield horrors. Both of them are supreme examples of the symbolic battle and martyrdom.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/21/2022 3:55:52 PM
Quote:
1827 Race Riots in Cincinnati cause 1000 blacks to leave for lower Canada! What happened to them? Comments??


I can tell you where I think that they went but it wasn't Lower Canada if we are talking about the same migration. It was Upper Canada, now Ontario.

Didn't the race riots occur in 1829? Black people in Ohio were subject to the black code instituted in the early 1800's which limited their ability to work and forced them to find two white men who would attest that they were free blacks. With an influx of white immigrants to Cincinnati there was competition for jobs and the white population demanded that the Black Code be enforced. Apparently it had been ignored as workers were needed up until the 1820's whether they be black or white. And so the white people attacked the black people.

There were a small number of black people who came to Upper Canada in that time period and they settled near Wilberforce, near London, Ontario. I looked up the local history and it does allude to an influx of black people but certainly not 1000. Now these were city people and not well suited to farming which was what was needed. Over time they moved away and Irish immigrants replaced them.

I read that 1000 black people did leave Cincinnati after the riots but they went to many places. Many did not even make it to Canada but settled in small towns on the US side.

The Wilberforce Colony welcomed some of these folks but also other escaped slaves who had heard about it. These people were among the more educated of Ohio's black population and the first thing that they established was schools. Black people from many places in the US came to the Wilberforce Colony but even by 1835 there were about 160 black families living in the colony.

By 1850 the colony was in decline and most of the black population had been replaced by the Irish. Many of the former residents headed to other cities in Canada including Toronto.

The Wilberforce Colony area had received sufficient numbers of Irish immigrants to be incorporated as the town of Lucan.

Now Lucan received great notoriety but not because it had been the place where escaped slaves and freed black people had tried to establish a colony. No it was because of the murder of a family of Irish Catholic immigrants known as the "Black" Donnellys.

The Donnelly family had emigrated to Upper Canada in the 1840's and quickly became notorious as ne'er do wells in the township in which the town of Lucan is. They were in conflict with many neighbours and towns people.

They squatted on some land and when challenged by a man who claimed to own it, James Donnelly killed the man. He was sent to prison. Meanwhile his seven boys grew into trouble makers involved in assault and arson and many other crimes. They would fight at the drop of a hat. And they were known as the "black" Donnelly's because of their criminal activities.

And so in 1880 some local people took it upon themselves to burn down the Donnelly house and farm. Four members of the Donnelly clan died in the fire. Another son was killed in town in a separate incident.

The crown was never able to convict anyone of the crimes that killed the Donnelly's. Lucan is famous for the murders of the Black Donnelly's and the attempt by black people to establish a new home in Upper Canada is but a fading memory.

Cheers,

George



Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/21/2022 10:00:09 PM
On this date in 1848, The Communist Manifesto was published in London. Little regarded at the time, it would become a key document as the 20th century unfolded.

I often wonder how many folks who were raised to loathe and fear Communism ever read this relatively short document?

My copy was printed by Progress Publishers (Moscow) and is undated. At a guess, I bought it in the mid-1960s. It’s a small-format paperback and runs to 102 pages, but 40 of those pages offer prefaces from various international editions, so the manifesto itself runs only some 60 pages. It is shorter in the 1955 edition published by Appleton-Century-Crofts in 1955.

Just musing about how we sometimes comment on history without having read documents which might create history. Primary source material is so … authentic!

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/22/2022 4:18:41 AM
Quote:

Just musing about how we sometimes comment on history without having read documents which might create history. Primary source material is so … authentic!

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G


The same with Adam Smith´s "Wealth of Nations". I am convinced that most of the Adam Smith Society and Adam Smith Institute have never read it.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/22/2022 9:12:26 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
[Read More]

[Read More]

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3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2+-22,in history.?

1797 the last invasion of Britain was raised during the Revolutionary War, as France invades Wales! How did that work out!? Why is it so difficult to invade the British Isles? What say you??

1819 Adams-OnisTreaty giving Florida from Spain to the US is signed! How did the US manage this?? Comments??

1847 battle of Bueno Vista is won by Americans over the Mexican Army! How was this the training ground to the Civil War? Anyone??

1825 Russia & Britain establish the Alaskan border! I thought the US was involved? Say what? Comments??

1854 the Republican Party is established in Michigan! Did this party actually flip later in history?? What say you?

1903 drought almost sets up part of Niagara Falls! Anyone have pictures or notes on this? Incredible!??

1915 Germany begins unrestricted submarine warfare! Didn't they know this would draw America into the war?? What say you??

1941 "Bomber Harris", becomes Britain's Air Marshall! Was he a good choice? Anyone??

1942 FDR orders Douglas MacArthur out of the Philippines! How will this effect the war in the Pacific?? Comments anyone?? BTW how most could all of the USAF planes be caught & destroyed on the ground, when the US knew that the Japanese were coming!? Someone messed up? Who in your opinion??

Speaking of the USAF on this day they mistakenly bombed a Dutch city, @ 800 civilians die!? How could this mistake possibly happen! What say you??

1945 the Canadian 3rd Division takes Moyland! Anyone have anything on this??

Any other events??

cheers,
MD


Thanks,
MD


Phil, great citing Verdun, A French victory over Germany, not a common occurrence??

George, thanks or correcting me on just what Lower Canada is! I thought it meant the lowest Southern area of Canada? Windsor to Hamilton!? Now I know it means Quebec Provincial area!?

Guys your right who has read the Communist Manifesto or Wealth of Nations!? Not I??



----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
2/22/2022 10:13:11 AM
I read " The Communist Manifesto" and "Mein Kampf" while in college, many years ago. Similar to the movie "Schindler's List" a great film....but one that you do not want to sit through more than once.....I have no desire to read either work again.

But, one does not need to read the works to see and know the evil results of both. Into the hundreds of millions of people have died because of the way that both manifestos were, and are, acted upon.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/22/2022 5:48:59 PM
Hey its Twosday, 2-22-22! How often does something like this happen??
What's the significance??
Anyone?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/22/2022 8:02:48 PM
Dave, I believe the US in in the minority in using the pattern “MM/DD/YY”. A majority of the world works from general to specific (YYYY/MM/DD) or specific to general (DD/MM/YYYY), using 4 digits for the year to provide clarity. So while 2022/02/22 is a bit of a washout, 22/02/2022 rings the bell as well.

How often such anomalies occur I couldn’t even hazard a guess. Who knows? Maybe there is a well-known mathematical equation that would provide an answer. As to significance, I can’t imagine there being any.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/22/2022 8:47:14 PM
Morris,

I guess it was, for many of us, a college experience. I think your “I read " The Communist Manifesto" and "Mein Kampf" while in college, many years ago. Similar to the movie "Schindler's List" a great film....but one that you do not want to sit through more than once.....I have no desire to read either work again” is a pretty good summary.

I will admit I found The Communist Manifesto much more focused and much better argued than Mein Kampf. Mind you, Mein Kampf was only a manifesto in that the Nazis declared it to be required reading in Germany. In fact, I have tried to read Hitler’s work more than once, and am still not certain I’ve read it completely or understood any of its arguments. I might say the same about Mao’s Little Red Book, though it is an anthology of writings over decades.

I agree that “… one does not need to read the works to see and know the evil results of both. Into the hundreds of millions of people have died because of the way that both manifestos were, and are, acted upon.” That’s fair enough. Particularly interesting, IMHO, is that a large number of the dead you refer to came about in a war between these two ideologies that was actively argued for in Mein Kampf. I’m not forgetting the starvation in Ukraine under Stalin, or the civil and military purges he implemented to secure his place as leader. And I’m not forgetting the 6 million in Hitlers extermination camps, or the other round-ups sending people to kzs.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/22/2022 9:14:14 PM
Quote:
1945 the Canadian 3rd Division takes Moyland! Anyone have anything on this??


The fighting at Moyland Wood was part of the Battle of the Rhineland in which the Canadians and British eliminated German resistance up to the Rhine River. It took place as the Canadians with British units attached attempted to gain control of the Goch-Calcar Rd.

Moyland Wood was a particularly nasty and costly fight as German paratroopers had taken control of the wooded area and had to be rooted out as they presented an threat to the movement of armour and supplies. Taking control of the woods had already cost the lives of many Scottish soldiers and would do the same for members of the Canadian 3rd division. The 3rd had been named the "Water Rats" by Montgomery as they had spent a good part of this fight in eliminating resistance in the areas flooded by the Germans who had breached dykes.

If I have my timeline correct, this fighting occurred shortly before the tremendous tank battle in the Hochwald gap.



The German paratroopers were excellent fighters and were difficult to find as they were well hidden. The combat experienced by British and Canadian soldiers in the Rhineland was among the most difficult of the war and many Normandy veterans attested that the fighting in Operation Veritable was worse.

I will present a good account of the Battle of Moyland Woods written by D. Gordon Brown who was an officer with the Regina Rifles at Moyland Wood, affectionately known as the "Farmer Johns" or just, "the Johns". He tells the tale well and is not shy about stating that by this stage of the battle the 3rd division was well worn down.

[Read More]

EDIT: Moyland Wood is a Battle Honour for the Royal Winnipeg Rifles. They displayed outstanding skill on the day that they were brought into the wood. The regiment suffered 100 casualties on that day, 26 of them fatal.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George




Dick Evick
Waco TX USA
Posts: 390
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/23/2022 12:29:38 PM
Well I'm a day late but yesterday in 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey team upset the Russian Team. There was an excellent movie made about it .

Today on history Santa Anna began the siege of the Alamo.

Dick.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/23/2022 3:20:23 PM
Quote:
1825 Russia & Britain establish the Alaskan border! I thought the US was involved? Say what? Comments??


Russia owned Alaska but the British were heavily involved in trade along the west coast of North America. But so was Spain. The US was not as heavily invested in the area at the time of the treaty but that would quickly change. However, US traders had sailed in the Vancouver area in the 1790's.

One of the other suggestions for discussion by MD was the acquisition of Florida East from Spain and it was that same treaty in 1819 that gave the US the rights to Spanish possessions on the west coast. The US interpreted that to mean that they would own everything right up to the Alaska border. But Spain had already ceded rights in the coastal area that is now Canada when they signed the Nootka Conventions with Britain in the 1790's. Cede is perhaps the wrong word as Spain and Britain both agreed that neither owned Nootka on Vancouver Island and that both could use it as a port. The US then had no claim but made the assertion anyway that the whole Pacific coast up to Alaska belonged to the US.

Russia was losing interest in the fur trade along the Alaskan coast and did sign a treaty with GB to determine the southern limit of its possession at 54° 40'. But the treaty didn't do a good job of defining the width of the possession on the Alaska panhandle and that would lead to problems for Canada in the early 1900's with the Alaska Boundary dispute.

In the early 1800's the US was in expansion mode and would be for several decades. The Russia/GB treaty and its wording and the US interpretation also led to conflict with Britain over the Oregon territory. Britain had a far more solid claim to that territory than did the US but the influx of Americans into the territory placed pressure on Britain. Oregon was governed essentially by the Hudson Bay Company but once a critical mass of Americans had moved into the territory, they demanded to be part of the US. And as it had in other land disputes, the US government was supportive.

Feeling its oats, the US asserted that it wanted all of the Oregon territory right up to 54° 40'. Rather than go to war the US and Britain signed the Oregon Treaty in 1846 and that established a border between BNA and the US at the 49th parallel. The US had already proposed the 49th but the British wanted the border to be on the Columbia River. That would have had vessels of both countries using the Columbia waterway.

The US President of the day, Polk, decided to make an election issue out of the boundary dispute hence his slogan, "54°40' or fight".



Cheers

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/23/2022 9:23:52 PM
Quote:
Well I'm a day late but yesterday in 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey team upset the Russian Team. There was an excellent movie made about it .

Today on history Santa Anna began the siege of the Alamo.

Dick.


Hi Dick,

2 very good historical topics, I remember that Miracle on Ice too an unbelievable game!!?

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/23/2022 9:28:56 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
[Read More]

[Read More]

[Read More]

3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2+-22,in history.? Reposted, more to discuss!???

1797 the last invasion of Britain was raised during the Revolutionary War, as France invades Wales! How did that work out!? Why is it so difficult to invade the British Isles? What say you??

1819 Adams-OnisTreaty giving Florida from Spain to the US is signed! How did the US manage this??Thanks George for your Comments??

1847 battle of Bueno Vista is won by Americans over the Mexican Army! How was this the training ground to the Civil War? Anyone??

1825 Russia & Britain establish the Alaskan border! I thought the US was involved? Say what? Thanks again George!

1854 the Republican Party is established in Michigan! Did this party actually flip later in history?? What say you?

1903 drought almost drys up part of Niagara Falls! Anyone have pictures or notes on this? Incredible!??

1915 Germany begins unrestricted submarine warfare! Didn't they know this would draw America into the war?? What say you??

1941 "Bomber Harris", becomes Britain's Air Marshall! Was he a good choice? Anyone? Maybe Brian G.??

1942 FDR orders Douglas MacArthur out of the Philippines! How will this effect the war in the Pacific?? Comments anyone?? BTW how most could all of the USAF planes be caught & destroyed on the ground, when the US knew that the Japanese were coming!? Someone messed up? Who in your opinion??

Speaking of the USAF on this day they mistakenly bombed a Dutch city, @ 800 civilians die!? How could this mistake possibly happen! What say you?? Anyone?

1945 the Canadian 3rd Division takes Moyland! Anyone have anything on this? Again thanks George!

Any other events?? From 2-23???

cheers,
MD


Thanks,
MD


Phil, great citing Verdun, Anyone on how the French won??




----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/24/2022 8:44:07 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Well I'm a day late but yesterday in 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey team upset the Russian Team. There was an excellent movie made about it .

Today on history Santa Anna began the siege of the Alamo.

Dick.


Hi Dick,

2 very good historical topics, I remember that Miracle on Ice too an unbelievable game!!?

MD



Certainly, the US victory was a surprise and I don't think it unfair to say that if 100 games were played between that US team and the very professional USSR (Red Army) team, that the USSR would win 99 of them. So it was a magnificent upset.

Of note, the NHL players were not available to play in this Olympics. Canada had just returned to this Olympic hockey tournament after boycotting the previous two and pulling out in 1970. The IIHF under Bunny Ahearne (sp ??) had refused to listen to Canada's pleas that the USSR was a professional team and that all their soldier hockey players did was play hockey. They were not amateurs.

Canada had worked out a deal in 1969 that would allow Team Canada to field 9 professionals at the World Championship. Canada attended a warm-up tournament with these pros and finished second. The IIHF panicked as they were quite happy to see European teams take the world championship and so the IIHF reneged on the deal and declared that the amateurs on Canada's team at the warm-up tournament were now disqualified as they had been tainted as a result of playing with pros. Canada pulled out at that point.

But the IIHF did allow pros in 1980. That didn't mean that the best were available as the NHL season still took precedent. Canada's re-entry was not auspicious in that Olympics.

Not able to play with its best, Canada chose to boycott. The IIHF rules also affected the US although the US had very few NHL players at the time. That makes the US victory all the more remarkable I think.

Note that of players on the US team, 12 went on to play at least some time in the NHL. Only four of the US players were pros at the minor league. So the US team was not a team of slouches. They could play.

On paper, the US team was not at the same level as the USSR but they won, didn't they? Good on them.

Cheers,

George

EDIT: I was just thinking that there were political overtones to the US victory over the Soviets. It was perceived as a victory by liberal democracies over the evil Empire. A little naive on our parts anyway. And now we have a developing democracy in Ukraine under siege by the new Russian Empire in a contest that is far more significant and deadly than a hockey game.


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/24/2022 9:53:41 AM
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3 perpetual sites, check for topics on 2-24 in history.?

1779 George Rogers Clark defeats the British at Vincennes Indiana, A big win out west for them! Were Indians involved?? Anyone?

1786 Gen Lord Cornwallis appointed Governor General of India!? Go figure, he loses at Yorktown, & then he's rewarded! He must of had connections? What say you??

1861 CSA Gen Bedford Forrest raids Tennessee! How good of a Confederate Officer was he?? Anyone??

1917, the Zimmerman Note is deciphered! The US is really upset, the Germans trying to get Mexico to attack the US!
Anyone have a site with the exact contents of the note? & how it went down??

1924 Mahatmah Gandhi released from jail by the British, why was he in there in the 1st place? Were the British fair to India?? Comments on the Empire! Anyone??

1945 Egypt & Syria declare war on Germany! Were they just jumping on the bandwagon, now that the Nazis were mostly defeated?? Comments?

Anything else???

Thanks for your participation!
MD



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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
MPReed
Monroe MI USA
Posts: 48
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/24/2022 8:28:02 PM
On GRC. Yes, Indians were involved. Hamilton was captured, and not exchanged, but kept in close confinement in a Virginia "gaol" because of his scalp buying.

Text of the Zimmerman Telegram.

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"We intend to begin on the first of February unrestricted submarine warfare. We shall endeavor in spite of this to keep the United States of America neutral. In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal or alliance on the following basis: make war together, make peace together, generous financial support and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. The settlement in detail is left to you. You will inform the President of the above most secretly as soon as the outbreak of war with the United States of America is certain and add the suggestion that he should, on his own initiative, invite Japan to immediate adherence and at the same time mediate between Japan and ourselves. Please call the President's attention to the fact that the ruthless employment of our submarines now offers the prospect of compelling England in a few months to make peace." Signed, ZIMMERMANN.


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On Cornwallis. Of course he was connected. Not a little to his brother who was a great naval war hero (though I admit I do not which came first, the appt. or Cornwallis the Adm. rise to fame). And then there is the long standing tradition of the British keeping high ranking military and naval officers long past their "best by" date. Also C.C. was able to successfully shift the blame to Clinton and Graves (not without some truth).

Michael
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/24/2022 9:19:33 PM
Michael, you certainly seem more up-to-date than I am on the Zimmerman telegram. Was it indeed so fully deciphered, or are you referring to the British decipherment (including guesses and assumptions) provided to the US to entice them into belligerency?

Personally, I’ve always had trouble with the contents of the Zimmermann telegram, in meaning, intent and language … though I will admit to receiving very few diplomatic messages, whether encrypted or deciphered, to which I can compare it.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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