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George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/3/2023 9:01:31 PM
Quote:
1810 Royal Navy seizes Guadeloupe! Back then did the RN just take what they wanted!? Could any other countries navy rival them? .what say you??


Guadeloupe was a French colony. And who were the British fighting in 1810? Napoleon

This was during the Napoleonic Wars and Guadeloupe was very important to the French. When they were defeated in 1759 by the British, they agreed to cede all their territory in Canada but wanted to keep Guadaloupe, a sugar island. Britain and France had fought over each other's sugar islands many times.

But in 1810 the British had another motive. They were gathering allies in the war against Napoleon and to encourage Sweden to switch sides in the war, the British suggested that Guadeloupe would be given to Sweden once the war was over. That was 1813.

But the British returned Guadeloupe to the French when Napoleon fell and paid the Swedes, 24 million pounds to cede their ownership of the island.

I believe that the RN was the most powerful navy in the world in 1810 but I wouldn't characterize the RN as a fleet of pirates and marauders. They carried out operations that furthered the interests of their country and fought to defend their country.

Cheers,

George

vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2520
Joined: 2020
This day in World History! Continued
2/3/2023 9:02:25 PM
Canadian History.. We get hammered by how awful US history is but Canadian history is more recent. Many tribal peoples were told to give up their kids and to be westernized. The last times were less than 65 years ago.


vpatrick
----------------------------------
nuts
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/3/2023 9:40:28 PM
Check 2-4, in history, for topics.? Posting them a bit early, but still worth discussing!?

?Moved today's topics to the new page! Comments, anyone??

1194 King Richard I, $100,000 paid for Ransom, paid out for what reason? What's the story on how this predicament happened?? What say you? Anyone??

1787 Shay's Rebellion! Any comments or websites on this event? How was it tied to the American Revolution? Anyone?

1789 George Washington becomes 1st US President! How was he elected? Was the US a true democracy yet?Comments, on how it differed from today's US Government??

1810 Royal Navy seizes Guadeloupe! Back then did the RN just take what they wanted!? Could any other countries navy rival them? .what say you??

1822 Free American Blacks form Liberia in West Africa! What's the history behind this?.Who was behind it? Anyone?

1861 Jefferson Davis elected president of the Confederacy! Was he the best choice? Comments?

1932 Japanese forces take Manchuria, why wasn't anyone concerned?? What say you??

1938 Hitler siezes control of the German Army, is there any stopping him now!? Anyone??

1941 British Tanks occupy Lybia, how will they fare against the Afrika Korps!? How would the embattled island of Malta ultimately help? Comments, anyone??
Lots to discuss here!?

1991 Alex Trebek a Canadian? Becomes 1st person to host 3 game shows at once? Any more on this famous Canuck??

Cheers,
MD

Any other world events we missed from this time frame? Anyone??

Morris, "Tejas"! Are you talking ZZ Top's album??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/4/2023 6:38:50 AM
D
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/4/2023 8:43:29 AM
Quote:
Canadian History.. We get hammered by how awful US history is but Canadian history is more recent. Many tribal peoples were told to give up their kids and to be westernized. The last times were less than 65 years ago.


vpatrick



Hi Vin, you seem to be upset. I'm going to assume that my comments about US expansionism have struck a nerve. Please remember that on this section of the forum I am only responding to suggested topics. If my take on US expansionism is incorrect then weigh in.

Please remember that for British North Americans the obvious zeal with which the US was expanding was quite threatening. Directly, Americans spoke many times of annexing "The Canadas". Indirectly, the country was on a move westward and seemed to be hellbent on securing its position as the pre-eminent power on the continent. The created some panic and urgency in BNA and later, Canada.


So while some Americans see the Louisiana Purchase, the annexation of West Florida, the seizure of over half of Mexico and the possession of Oregon through treaty as benign and glorious, it was not so for the Mexicans or the British North Americans. Certainly, it was not for the First Nations.

The US lobbied hard in British Columbia to encourage the people to ask to be annexed to the US. This was after the Oregon Treaty. There were Americans in Pembina who had designs on the Red River Colony to the north.

When Canada became a nation it had to lobby the British to ensure that the massive tract called Rupert's Land would be sold to Canada. The business people who had control of Rupert's Land had been listening to offers from the US. There would be no Canada as we know it without the purchase of R.L which created conditions to link the east with the Pacific.

During your civil war, there were multiple calls to invade Canada.

Vin I am concerned that rather than respond to my take on the seizure of Mexican territory, you chose to dredge up some negative aspect of Canadian history. That's fine, I can address the issue of Indian Residential Schools in Canada. In fact, Canada is not hiding this negative aspect of our history. It is right in front of us as we undergo a reconciliation process with the First Nations people.

There are many aspects and issues in Canadian history of which we are proud and many of which we are not. But if your intent was to highlight a negative issue in Canadian history in response to my views on US expansionism, I am afraid that you picked the wrong topic.

Residential boarding schools for Indians was an idea that Canada lifted from the US. In both of our countries there was concern about what to do with the Indians and it was determined, first by the British and then the Canadians that the best thing to do for these people was to "drive the Indian out of the Indian". And how do you do that? You take the kids from their parents and send them to school where they would be forbidden to speak their native tongue, and taught to be good Christians.

In Canada those schools were mostly operated by religious institutions. Roman Catholic and Anglican churches paid for the majority of the schools and unfortunately some of the people working in the schools were evil. Some beat the children and sexually molested them. The kids often didn't have enough to eat. But the greatest crime is that too many died while in residence and were buried on the site of the schools. Their parents were never informed of the fates of their children and recently there have been discoveries of unmarked graves (not mass graves) in many different residential schools across the country. We do not know how they died. Was it disease? Malnutrition? Physical beatings? Suicide?

All is to be revealed once the records of the governments (federal and provincial) and those of the religious institutions are released.

Vin, if you check the US history of Indian boarding schools you will find issues that match those in Canada. In fact with the discovery of unmarked graves at Canadian Residential Schools, American Indians have taken it upon themselves to search the grounds of former boarding schools and indeed, have discovered unmarked graves.

So are both of our countries guilty of genocide? A difficult thing to accept, isn't it? The US government is now investigating what we have been investigating for a few years now.

Quote:
In June 2021, Interior Secretary Deb Haaland announced the creation of the Federal Indian Boarding School Initiative. Its primary goal is to investigate and document the loss of human life and the lasting consequences of these schools.


Quote:
The investigation found that from 1819 to 1969, the federal Indian boarding school system consisted of 408 federal schools across 37 states or then territories, including 21 schools in Alaska and 7 schools in Hawaii.



Anyway, I dug up a few articles. BTW, I read that Lyndon Johnson began to put an end to the Indian boarding system in the 1960's

[Read More]

[Read More]


For better or worse, our histories are entwined but Canadians tend to pay more attention to our relationship with our neighbour to the south. The US continues to impact our lives far more than Canada could ever impact the lives of Americans.

Cheers,

George



OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/4/2023 8:59:59 AM
Mass and momentum. If Canada wasn't a frozen hell I'd move there.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/4/2023 10:43:25 AM
Quote:
Mass and momentum. If Canada wasn't a frozen hell I'd move there.


Not that bad, OP. No climate differences between Canada and the border states that abut our provinces, really. Someone from Michigan or New York knows what we're talking about in Ontario or Québec when we complain about the weather.

But you live in a part of the states with mostly gentle climate don't you? I understand the appeal.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/4/2023 2:23:15 PM
I visit a friend "somewhere near Yellow Knife" when he needs a friend. Been there in the dead of winter. Landed on the lake with skis.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
2/4/2023 3:05:11 PM
Just to finish my comments about Mexico, and those who suggest that it was noble in abolishing slavery, I will quote the historian-author James Donovan:

" Slavery had recently been made illegal in Mexico, and that included Texas. (Never mind that Mexico had it`s own `peculiar institution'- it`s 'peonage system'- in which dirt poor peasants toiled on huge haciendas with little chance of earning freedom. They were burdened with massive debt, and, like southern slaves, endured hopeless conditions such as corporal punishment and severe penalties for escape. The sale of these human beings resembled slavery to a discomforting degree.)"

What many Americans in Texas who owned slaves used as a get-around the laws against slavery was to mimic the lawful peonage system.....to make their slaves contracted indentured servants with terms like 99 years, and gave them an almost nonexistent compensation. The Mexican authorities made no attempt to stop this go-around of law. So lets not paint Mexico as some enlightened entity concerning slavery and human trafficking.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/4/2023 3:55:57 PM
Quote:
I visit a friend "somewhere near Yellow Knife" when he needs a friend. Been there in the dead of winter. Landed on the lake with skis.


Now c'mon OP. That's way up there in the Northwest Territories. Why do you think that 90% of us live within 200 km of the international border? We're trying to catch a few rays of sunshine.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/4/2023 4:14:53 PM
Quote:
Just to finish my comments about Mexico, and those who suggest that it was noble in abolishing slavery, I will quote the historian-author James Donovan:

" Slavery had recently been made illegal in Mexico, and that included Texas. (Never mind that Mexico had it`s own `peculiar institution'- it`s 'peonage system'- in which dirt poor peasants toiled on huge haciendas with little chance of earning freedom. They were burdened with massive debt, and, like southern slaves, endured hopeless conditions such as corporal punishment and severe penalties for escape. The sale of these human beings resembled slavery to a discomforting degree.)"

What many Americans in Texas who owned slaves used as a get-around the laws against slavery was to mimic the lawful peonage system.....to make their slaves contracted indentured servants with terms like 99 years, and gave them an almost nonexistent compensation. The Mexican authorities made no attempt to stop this go-around of law. So lets not paint Mexico as some enlightened entity concerning slavery and human trafficking.

Respects, Morris


Hi Morris. We aren't going to go to war again, I promise. I just don't think that the US decision to go to war had anything to do with punishing a corrupt Mexican government. However, it is true that some of the Texans were upset at the news that Mexico intended to abolish slavery. But Texas had already been absorbed by the US before the US-Mexico war. I think that the US wanted Mexico to recognize that political fact and not to continue to claim that Texas was still a province, a rebellious province, of Mexico.

The US wanted to expand and the Mexican northern provinces weren't heavily populated anyway. With a victory the US could gain Mexico's approval of the annexation of Texas and then scoop some more land to the Pacific.

I should add that the US was looking for a means to annex British territory in the west during the civil war but the war occupied its attention. Pembina was in Minnesota in the early 1860's and it wasn't too far from Fort Garry in Hudson Bay Co. territory just to the north where the Red River colony was too. Thousands of Americans had moved north into the Red River area which was populated by Assiniboine FN and Métis. In 1863 (I think) there was a Sioux uprising in the Minnesota area and the Sioux would attack and then disappear into British territory.

The US wanted to send troops into British North America to "exterminate" the Sioux as the US military commander suggested. There were no British forces up there and the British were concerned that the influx of Americans would result in either a setting up of a provisional government or an annexation by force. The British denied permission for the US cavalry to enter BNA and as the US was preoccupied it was prepared to wait. It helped that the US cavalry present in Pembina were called away to deal with another Indian problem farther west.

The US felt that this part of British North America would fall to the US, not by force, but by the demands of the people in the Red River area, many of whom were American. That pattern had played out a number of times in US expansion history.

Canadian Confederation in 1867 was quickly followed by the sale of Rupert's Land by HBC to Canada, and which contained the Red River Colony.

My point, I guess, is that there is no shortage of examples to indicate that the US intended to own as much of North America as was possible and that included the northern provinces of Mexico whether by negotiation or by war.

EDIT: Quote:
The war against Mexico was, “one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger
nation against a weaker nation.”
. Ulysses S. Grant

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/5/2023 8:34:34 AM

Check 2-4, & 2-5, in history, for topics.?

Other 2-4 events were!?

1194 King Richard I, $100,000 paid for Ransom paid! What's the story on how this predicament hsppened?? What say you? Anyone??

1787 Shays Rebellion! Any comments or websites on this event?? Anyone?

1789 George Washington becomes 1st US President! How was he elected? Comments?

1822 Free American Blacks form Liberia in West Africa! What's the history behind this?? Anyone?

1861 Jefferson Davis elected president of the Confederacy! Was he the best choice? Comments?

1932 Japanese force take Manchuria, why wasn't anyone concerned?? What say you??

1938 Hitler siezes the German Army, No stopping him now!? Anyone??

1941 British Tanks occupy Lybia, how will they fare against the Afrika Korps!? Comments?
Lots to discuss here!?

1991 Alex Trebek a Canadian? Becomes 1st person to host 3 game shows at once? Any more on this famous Canuck??

Here is 2-5, historical events! Comments??

1803 English Explorer, George Bass sets sail from Sydney Australia, to Tahiti, & S.America! & He is never seen again!? Does anyone have anything on this mystery!??

1864 the Union takes Jackson, MS. How did cutting the Confederacy in two, with control of the Mississippi hurt the South!? What say you?? Was the lack of a substantial navy really an achillies heel to the Confederates?? CW guys , any comments??

1885 the news on the fall of Khartoum reaches London! Who was responsible for this loss? How did the Empire respond!?

1900 the US & the UK sign a treaty over Panama Canal! How was the UK involved?? That's a surprise, anyone??

1904 the US gives Cuba back to the Cubans! See the US is not always imperialistic! Comments non believers!?

358 RAF bombers attack Stettin in 1944, how did this go over? At this point do the Allies for some part, control the skies!? What say you??

1945, Big 3 meet at Malta! Did WSC represent Canada, too?? Anyone?

1945 Douglas MacArthur returns to Manila! Why we he so criticized by some? Even called Dugout Doug! Why??

back again to 1788 Bobbies take to London's streets! Were they the 1st actual police force!??

Tons to discuss here! Anyone???
Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/5/2023 9:10:35 AM
Quote:
1945, Big 3 meet at Malta! Did WSC represent Canada, too?? Anyone?


As far as I know, Canada and the other Dominions had no input on war strategy.

example: Prior to the entry of the US into WWII, Great Britain told Canada that its navy would be placed under the operational control of the USN, a non-belligerent. Canada protested as the RCN had been building capacity and had a leader in Commodore Murray who was well able to take command of the eastern side of the Atlantic. But the US would not come in and operate under another command. Churchill had brokered this deal and the Admiralty delivered the message that this was the way in would be. The situation didn't last long as the USN had to pull out of most convoy operations to deal with events in the Pacific.

George
Steve Clements
Toronto ON Canada
Posts: 910
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/5/2023 9:42:52 AM
Dave,

If there was fighting at or near Jackson on Feb 5th/1864, that would have been during Sherman’s Meridian campaign….the capture of Jackson during Grant’s Vicksburg campaign was on May 14th, 1863.

But as to how important was the capture of Vicksburg…I would like to hear what others might say. I have no feeling for to what extent supplies (and Confederate soldiers) crossed back and forth before the loss of Vicksburg.

My impression – which may not be correct – is that, in many ways, the trans Mississippi campaigns might as well have been in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, for all the impact that they had on the fighting east of the Mississippi.

s.c.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/5/2023 10:23:40 AM
Quote:
1900 the US & the UK sign a treaty over Panama Canal! How was the UK involved?? That's a surprise, anyone??


A previous treaty from 1850 indicated that control of the Panama Canal, when finished, would be international in nature. Britain was much more influential in the region in that time period and not so much at the turn of the century.

The treaty of 1901 abrogated that agreement and gave the US sole control of the canal and its construction. But the US agreed to keep the canal open to all except in times of war.

Initially the US was not supposed to build military fortifications along the canal but that clause didn't make it to the final treaty.

In 1914, the US tried to exact tolls to use the canal from all ships other than US ships and that was protested by the UK I think that the US backed off on that initiative because the spirit of the original treaty in 1850 was supposed to be observed.

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/5/2023 12:06:30 PM
Quote:
1904 the US gives Cuba back to the Cubans! See the US is not always imperialistic! Comments non believers!?


Yes, Cuba was declared independent but with the spectre of the Platt Amendment hanging over its head.

The US agreed to Cuban independence provided:

1. Cuba never sold any part of itself to any foreign power other than the US.

2. Cuba could not negotiate treaties in a fully autonomous manner. They could not make a treaty with a foreign power that would compromise Cuban independence and could not allow the military of another foreign power to use the island for colonization or for military purposes.

3. Cuba had to allow the US to maintain a naval base at Guantanamo Bay. This was the exception to #2

4. The US could return with troops at any time that the US felt that Cuban independence could be compromised.

5. Cuba had to incorporate these conditions in its constitution.


The US was back in 1906 and in 1912, 1917, 1920 and was influential in Cuban politics until the Cuban revolution. It was FDR who repealed the Platt Amendment.

So I see this as independence with conditions. So, a sham or justified? The Cubans wanted the US occupation to end and they had to agree to these conditions so that the US forces would leave.

Text of Platt Amendment

[Read More]

Cheers,

George


DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/5/2023 12:41:37 PM
Quote:
1. Cuba never sold any part of itself to any foreign power other than the US.

Cheers,

George


I suspect the Cuban people might disagree with you on that George.



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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/5/2023 2:37:38 PM
"Cuban Missile Crisis."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/5/2023 6:09:28 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1. Cuba never sold any part of itself to any foreign power other than the US.

Cheers,

George


I suspect the Cuban people might disagree with you on that George.





Hi Dan, just to clarify the sentence above that I wrote was an article of the treaty that the Cubans accepted in order to see the US troops depart. I am aware that Castro aligned with the Soviets after fishing for support in Washington and not finding it.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/6/2023 5:49:26 AM
South Africa , 1838.

The Boer leader, Piet Retief, suffered a horrific fate at the hands of the Zulu king, Dingaan.

Retief had been seeking to escape British rule, because the Boers wished to retain their racial codes which effectively enslaved the indigenous blacks, and the British, having abolished slavery were not prepared to tolerate this.

The Boers had persuaded the Zulu King to sign an agreement giving them settlement rights in his domain, and he had invited Ritief and his entourage to a feast.

Dingaan then ordered his warriors to kill Retief, along with his followers. They were clubbed to death, with Retief being saved till last, so that he witnessed his sons being killed before him.

There was an ensuing massacre of the Boer “ treckers”, along with their servants, and this entailed the slaughter of men, women and children to the number of five hundred.

An important date in the Afrikaner calendar, with repurcussions that haunt the folklore of Boer descendants to this day.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/6/2023 9:22:22 AM
Feb. 6, 1952

King George VI died and Princess Elizabeth acceded to the throne as Queen Elizabeth II on the same day.

With the passing of the King, the Accession Council met and proclaimed her legal succession on that day.

Elizabeth was also the first monarch to be proclaimed monarch of a Commonwealth country, separately from being Queen of the UK. In 1953, a Canadian law, the Royal Styles and Titles Act, proclaimed her officially as Queen of Canada.

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/6/2023 11:05:16 AM
Quote:
South Africa , 1838.

The Boer leader, Piet Retief, suffered a horrific fate at the hands of the Zulu king, Dingaan.

Retief had been seeking to escape British rule, because the Boers wished to retain their racial codes which effectively enslaved the indigenous blacks, and the British, having abolished slavery were not prepared to tolerate this.

The Boers had persuaded the Zulu King to sign an agreement giving them settlement rights in his domain, and he had invited Ritief and his entourage to a feast.

Dingaan then ordered his warriors to kill Retief, along with his followers. They were clubbed to death, with Retief being saved till last, so that he witnessed his sons being killed before him.

There was an ensuing massacre of the Boer “ treckers”, along with their servants, and this entailed the slaughter of men, women and children to the number of five hundred.

An important date in the Afrikaner calendar, with repurcussions that haunt the folklore of Boer descendants to this day.

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil,

I don't really know to much about this event, do you have a website or good article on it?? I guess US people don't know a lot on the Boer Wars!?

Thanks, & Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/6/2023 2:23:18 PM
Quote:
Quote:
South Africa , 1838.

The Boer leader, Piet Retief, suffered a horrific fate at the hands of the Zulu king, Dingaan.

Retief had been seeking to escape British rule, because the Boers wished to retain their racial codes which effectively enslaved the indigenous blacks, and the British, having abolished slavery were not prepared to tolerate this.

The Boers had persuaded the Zulu King to sign an agreement giving them settlement rights in his domain, and he had invited Ritief and his entourage to a feast.

Dingaan then ordered his warriors to kill Retief, along with his followers. They were clubbed to death, with Retief being saved till last, so that he witnessed his sons being killed before him.

There was an ensuing massacre of the Boer “ treckers”, along with their servants, and this entailed the slaughter of men, women and children to the number of five hundred.

An important date in the Afrikaner calendar, with repurcussions that haunt the folklore of Boer descendants to this day.

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil,

I don't really know to much about this event, do you have a website or good article on it?? I guess US people don't know a lot on the Boer Wars!?

Thanks, & Regards,
MD


Hi Dave,

This is not something I know much about, but the slightest brush with the story excites interest among anyone who seeks to understand how the peculiar racial conflicts developed in South Africa.

I was aware of the story, but look forward to learning more.

Afrikaner Nationalism owes quite a lot to it. It might be compared with the legend of The Alamo and the impact that had on Texans. Come to think of it, not far apart in terms of time, those two episodes, are they ?

Likewise, Little Big Horn and Isandhlwana, a theme I’ve mentioned before here.

Apart from the theme of competing imperial powers, the South African narrative is defined by a visceral racism between black and white and a very unforgiving folklore. “ The Zulus are the enemies of my blood”…. that’s a saying I heard from an Afrikaner !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/7/2023 7:46:50 AM


Moving on to 2-7, in history;

1783 the Great seige of Gibraltar, Spain & France try to take the rock but can't! How did England get this area? What made it so impregnable?? I believe even Hitler couldn't take it!? Comments on Gibraltar's history! Anyone??

1845 A priceless 2,000 year old vase was shattered into 80 pieces by a drunk at the British museum! it was fixed. How did they do it! Any one??

1862 & again in 1864, the Union Navy takes coastal areas of the Confederacy! The South's Coast was pretty much at the mercy of the Union Navy! No wonder the South wanted the British with their navy to interviene, on their behalf! What say you??

1904 Baltimore catches fire, 1,500 buildings destroyed in 80 blocks! What was your area's cities worst fire!? Why were they so destructive??

1946 Filibuster kills major bill in the Senate! Isn't this practice non productive! Should it be done away with!?? What say you??

1850 Sen. Joe McCarthy involved in Red Scare! Was he nuts? What was this all about? Anyone??

1859 Castro proclaimed new Cuba, 3 years later Kennedy is blockading it! What happened? Anyone??

1879 Sanford Fleming proposes Universal Time in Canada! What does that mean? How is Canadian time laid out?? What say you? Is it in time zones like the US??

Again lots of topics?
Any others??
Cheers!
MD

BTW thanks Phil for the comments on the Boer War, it was another example of European powers taking away native African lands! Racism like the American Civil War Era was in play as well!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/7/2023 8:33:22 AM
Quote:
1879 Sanford Fleming proposes Universal Time in Canada! What does that mean? How is Canadian time laid out?? What say you? Is it in time zones like the US??


It's called Universal Standard Time because it applies to the whole world.

Fleming was a railroad engineer and he found the hodge-podge of different systems to be unworkable in the railway industry. There was no standardized system of time and he found that chaotic in a world in which people were travelling farther and faster. He wanted to be able to determine what time it was in any part of the world.

He founded the Royal Canadian Institute in 1879 which was an association of engineers and scientists interested in scientific advancements. It was here that he proposed Universal Standard Time.

He proposed that Greenwich, England be accepted as 0 degrees longitude and that the rest of the world would be divided into 24 time zones.

He took the proposal to a Washington in 1884. This was the International Prime Meridian Conference and this is where the concept was accepted by the rest of the world. So US and Canadian time zones are the same.

Fleming was a Scottish ex-pat and he wasn't a one trick pony. He also designed the first Canadian postage stamp. He surveyed the first railway route across Canada. He was the head engineer for both the Intercolonial Railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway, both of which were critical to ensuring that Confederation would happen and would be sustained.

Note that countries do not always follow the time zone rule to the letter. Each zone is supposed to occupy 15 degrees of longitude. But countries make local adjustments to keep areas with common interest in the same time zone. I have seen suggestions that we should get rid of these local adjustments and adhere to the 15 degree rule.




Cheers,

George






Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/7/2023 9:49:28 AM
Quote:





BTW thanks Phil for the comments on the Boer War, it was another example of European powers taking away native African lands! Racism like the American Civil War Era was in play as well!?


Delighted to contribute, Dave !

Let me say that this episode occurred generations before the Boer War : this was the situation that developed as the Boer settlers encountered the Zulus in the 1830's, nearly a lifetime before the Boer War which spanned the years between the end of the nineteenth and the start of the twentieth centuries.

Something needs to be emphasised : the European powers certainly took land from the indigenous peoples ; but the natives themselves practiced ethnic cleansing and genocidal warfare against each other. Shaka, the Zulu king, could have taught Stalin a thing or two about the liquidation of opponents and the massacre of helpless people.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 6:38:12 AM
On South Africa, it’s worth noting that both the Boers and the Zulus were land grabbers, who pushed out the Bushmen nomads from the area to create space for their respective farming endeavours. The Boers moved north to avoid British rule; the Zulus moved south to expand their holdings.

That they clashed so brutally is not surprising; Shaka built an empire of blood and conquest, the Boers of one of individualist toil and soil.

Very little quarter was given in the clashes between these peoples, with atrocities on both sides. The British conquest of the Zulu nation in 1879 solved a lot of problems for the Boers. With their flank secure as the Zulu nation was now cowed, this gave them the moral courage to reject assimilation with the Cape Colony and strike out on their own after their devastating victory at Majuba Hill in the first Anglo-Boer War in 1881.

The British settled the account after much cost and bloodletting in the second round from 1899-1902, which brought the Boer republics into the empire, at the ultimate cost of the civil rights of millions of black and mixed race Africans. We are still paying the price today for the peace of 1902.

Cheers,

Colin

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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 6:38:12 AM
On South Africa, it’s worth noting that both the Boers and the Zulus were land grabbers, who pushed out the Bushmen nomads from the area to create space for their respective farming endeavours. The Boers moved north to avoid British rule; the Zulus moved south to expand their holdings.

That they clashed so brutally is not surprising; Shaka built an empire of blood and conquest, the Boers of one of individualist toil and soil.

Very little quarter was given in the clashes between these peoples, with atrocities on both sides. The British conquest of the Zulu nation in 1879 solved a lot of problems for the Boers. With their flank secure as the Zulu nation was now cowed, this gave them the moral courage to reject assimilation with the Cape Colony and strike out on their own after their devastating victory at Majuba Hill in the first Anglo-Boer War in 1881.

The British settled the account after much cost and bloodletting in the second round from 1899-1902, which brought the Boer republics into the empire, at the ultimate cost of the civil rights of millions of black and mixed race Africans. We are still paying the price today for the peace of 1902.

Cheers,

Colin

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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 7:36:20 AM
Excellent rendition, Colin : thanks.

I was tempted to blurt out that if we remove the statues of Cecil Rhodes, it might be appropriate to argue for the removal of monuments to Shaka Zulu, too.

I wonder how such a suggestion would be received.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 8:19:31 AM
Checking a few of 2-9 events in history, for topics.?
Anything for discussion?? Have any others?

1674 the English take New York from the Dutch! What if the Dutch had held out & been players in America! Would that have changed the Colonial War??

1861 Jefferson Davis declared President of the Confederacy! A job he didn't want! Was he the best choice! Comments??

1916 Great Britain Institutes a draft for WWI, did this include all the Commonwealthers?? What say you??

1943 the Japanese evacuate Guadalcanal, for the 1st time Japanese Forces are defeated! Comments on this great victories importance! Anyone??

1944 2 U boats U74 & U238, sank off Ireland!? How did the RN do it? What say you??

1971 Apollo 14 returns to Earth! Why did NASA stop Moon Missions?? Anyone?

Any other new topics?
Regards,
MD

BTW Phil, & Colin,

Thanks for filling me in. I didn't realize that the Zulus were so horrific themselves!!
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 12:40:19 PM
Quote:
1916 Great Britain Institutes a draft for WWI, did this include all the Commonwealthers?? What say you??


Britain didn't have that kind of power over the Dominions of the Commonwealth although in 1914, when the Mother Country went to war, the Dominions were in it. But it was the extent to which they would be involved that was up to the Dominions to decide.

By 1917 it was clear to PM Robert Borden that volunteers could not continue to supply the Canadian Corps with sufficient replacements and so he proposed conscription. It was heavily debated in Canada and it was a divisive concept especially in Québec which felt no particular allegiance to Great Britain or to France. French speaking Canadians were about 25% of the population. They said that they would defend Canada if it was attacked but saw no need to participate in European war.

But they weren't the only ones who had decided not to volunteer. Other ethnic groups and even Canadian born men could not see the necessity to volunteer. Farmers were against the draft because they needed their sons to stay home as farm labourers. Trade unionists opposed the draft on principle.

The debate continued into 1918 even though the Military Service Act which would set up a draft had been passed on Aug. 29, 1917.

The country was nearly torn apart. Thousands of men refused to register. Many headed for the back woods. Many asked for exemptions.

In March of 1918 anti-conscription riots broke out in Québec City. It was Mar. 29, Easter. The Military Registration Office was destroyed by fire and all records lost. The army sent troops in to quell the riots. When they tried to break up the mob they were pelted with ice and bricks. Some of the rioters were armed and they shot at the troops and wounded some. The troops returned fire and killed four rioters and wounded many more.

A sad day but reflective of the divide that exists in this country between the descendents of the two founding cultures.

The call-ups began in January of 1918. Of the 401,882 men who had registered for the draft, 124,588 received a call up.

99,651 were taken on strength. The others were rejected for health reasons. Only 47,509 were sent overseas and of that number, only 24,132 served at the front. Not a lot for all the strife that it caused. Still, most historians say that the numbers taken on strength were necessary for Canada to continue its stellar performance in 1918 to the end of the war.


Australia: Never had conscription. The PM tried twice in referenda to seek approval for conscription and both times the initiative was defeated. The people said NO.

New Zealand: In 1916, NZ passed a Military Service Act and called up over 138,000 men to serve in the NZ armed forces.


So we can see that the Dominions respond differently to the demands of war and exercised autonomy in doing so.

Cheers,

George



George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 12:59:31 PM
Quote:
1944 2 U boats U74 & U238, sank off Ireland!? How did the RN do it? What say you??


MD, I checked uboat.net to determine the fates of these boats. According to that website U238: Quote:
Sunk on 9 February 1944 in the North Atlantic south-west of Ireland, in position 49.45N, 16.07W, by depth charges from the British sloops HMS Kite, HMS Magpie and HMS Starling. 50 dead (all hands lost).


[Read More]

But U74 had been sunk in the Mediterranean in 1942.

Quote:
Sunk on 2 May 1942 in the Mediterranean east-southeast of Cartagena, Spain, in position 37.12N, 00.01E, by depth charges from the British destroyers HMS Wishart and HMS Wrestler. 47 dead (all hands lost). (Rainer Kolbicz and Platon Alexiades, January 2012).


[Read More]


So both were destroyed by ships dropping depth charges.


EDIT: So I checked the uboat.net site and found that on the same day that U238 had been sunk, a uboat numbered U734 had also been sunk. MD, you just left out a number, hence the confusion.

Quote:
Sunk on 9 February 1944 in the North Atlantic south-west of Ireland, in position 49.43N, 16.23W, by depth charges from the British sloops HMS Wild Goose and HMS Starling. 49 dead (all hands lost).


[Read More]


Of note, HMS Starling seems to have participated in both kills.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 1:22:16 PM
1587 : Mary Queen of Scots executed, her death warrant signed by another Queen, Elizabeth the First of England.

A traumatic event, with the added twist that Mary’s grandson , Charles the First, would also perish by the fall of the axe by order of English powers sixty two years later.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 1:37:27 PM
So both were destroyed by ships dropping depth charges.


EDIT: So I checked the uboat.net site and found that on the same day that U238 had been sunk, a uboat numbered U734 had also been sunk. MD, you just left out a number, hence the confusion.

Quote:
Sunk on 9 February 1944 in the North Atlantic south-west of Ireland, in position 49.43N, 16.23W, by depth charges from the British sloops HMS Wild Goose and HMS Starling. 49 dead (all hands lost).


[Read More]


Of note, HMS Starling seems to have participated in both kills.

Cheers,

George



Hi George,

Your right I missed a digit, occasionally I have trouble reading with my current glasses, I hope everyone will cut me some slack on misprints!? Thanks for the corrections, its fascinating history on just what happened to these U-boats, from your "read mores"!

Regards,
MD


Also, Phil,

Don't you think Mary, & Charles, deserved better fates??. What possibly could they have done to upset the Crown, that much?? Sorry not an expert on British Monarchy!?

MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 2:54:48 PM
Mary was guilty as sin and Charles as obstinate as they come. Whilst I don’t think they deserve the axe, it’s easy to see why it came their way.

Phil - on Shaka, the Zulu nation sees him as their father. He forged the disparate tribes into a cohesive political unit. Atrocities notwithstanding, he forged their identity. I can see your point though.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/8/2023 9:58:00 PM
Colin, interesting reading you offer of the times. 48 years separating the executions, but an entire age in terms of reasoning, purpose and the like. As to death by the axe, I would suggest that while Mary Queen of Scots was executed for treason, Charles I was executed for losing a war. The axe was, of course, a death granted royalty and nobility; there were other deaths on hand for treason which were much less pleasant.

I think Mary’s status is often forgotten. Queen of France by marriage; Queen of Scots by birth; ties to the House of Tudor almost as strong as Elizabeth’s (her mother was Henry VIII’s elder sister). Whether she was guilty as charged, she was a tremendous threat to Elizabeth and the Church of England at a time perceived to be fraught with Catholic insurrection.

It would be interesting to track how monarchs were treated between 1400 and 1650. The murder of the Princes in the Tower may have broken tradition. I guess Lady Jane Grey, proclaimed but not crowned queen, was the first regicide of a sort; second would be Mary Queen of Scots. Charles I was I believe the first regicide by parliamentary decision (and without treason or usurpation as a reason).

Interesting period of history, don’t you think?

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/9/2023 4:55:04 AM
I would not say that Charles I was executed without treason. Much the same as Louis XVI of France, he was executed for calling upon foreign armies to invade and put down an elected government and restore an absolute monarchy. I´d consider that treason.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/9/2023 8:21:49 AM
2-9 events in history, not discussed yet. (kind of jumped the gun o 2-9 yesterday, oops.)

1674 the English take New York from the Dutch! What if the Dutch had held out & been players in America! Would that have changed the Colonial War??

1861 Jefferson Davis declared President of the Confederacy! A job he didn't want! Was he the best choice! Comments??

1943 the Japanese evacuate Guadalcanal, for the 1st time Japanese Forces are defeated! Comments on this great victories importance! Anyone??

1971 Apollo 14 returns to Earth! Why did NASA stop Moon Missions? Yeah I know we have the International Space Station out there, but? Anyone?

Also 1757 Calcutta restored to British control, next the Brits would seize Bengal!? Was India the #1 British Colonial treasure?? $$$. Cha ching, Cha ching!!

2002 Princess Margaret dies, what was her place in the Royal family!? Anyone??

new topics?
Regards,
MD

What history topics are we missing in Commonwealth Countries, & other areas? Anyone?

BTW great discussion on Mary Queen of Scots, continue if you wish!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/9/2023 1:09:47 PM
Quote:
1971 Apollo 14 returns to Earth! Why did NASA stop Moon Missions? Yeah I know we have the International Space Station out there, but? Anyone?


new topics?
Regards,
MD



Budget cuts, the move from Apollo to Soyuz and the Space Station and works were already underway for the space shuttle program.

The last moon landing was most likely the most successful, I suspect the Apollo 11 crew may differ but, with a trained geologist on board and the larger capacity for experiments and material return, Apollo 17 sadly ended the moon missions, for the time being.

For myself, Artemis III planned for 2025 will be an exciting moment bringing back those memories of 1969 in front of a black and white tv with my parents and my dads Navy crew in a small three bedroom, military duplex in Ridgecrest, Ca.

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/10/2023 7:43:32 AM
Topics on 2-11, in history? For example?

1543 King Henry VIII signs Anti French Covenant! Why did the English always hate the French!?? Can anyone explain it??

1766-1768 Colonists like Sam Adams stir up anti British imposed tax feelings! We're their good reasons for this?? What say you?

1814 Norway's independence proclaimed! How did this come about? Kai? Or anyone??

1861 Lincoln takes a train through Baltimore, why did he have to fear for his life? Even then? How did he get safely to DC?? What say you?

1861 US Congress passes resolution to not interfere with Slavery in any state!? So why didn't the Confederacy say lets not fight, this is good enough?? Yet they continued the Civil War?? To bad they would have saved a lot of lives!?
Comments anyone??

1916 Germany notifies the US they will sink its ships! Why? & how did the Americans respond? I take it they were already sinking Canadian ships & all Commonwealth ships? Comments??

1941 the Desert Fox arrives in N. Africa, his Panzers move quickly forward! What factors cause him to falter, & lose favor with Hitler?? Was the German code broken yet? & what of Malta being a thorn in the Nazis side? Anyone??

1945 Eisenhower picked as Supreme Allied Commander over Monty, The Brit. wasn't happy!?
Did he have a beef?? Any Monty fans out there??

1946 Operation Dead light ends when 116 of 156 Uboats scuttled! WWII is over? So What's up with this? I never knew it? Can anyone explain it???

1975 Margaret Thatcher defeats Mr. Heath as UK's PM.! Later she leads the UK to victory in the Falklands!? Was she a great leader?? Help us out here? Anyone??

Again plenty to discuss!
What say you??
Cheers,
MD


BTW, Thanks Dan, for the comments on NASA, & where the space program is going next??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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