MILITARY HISTORY ONLINE

User:  
Password:  
 
 General History
Page 56 of 115 (Page:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28   29   30   31   32   33   34   35   36   37   38   39   40   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50   51   52   53   54   55    56    57   58   59   60   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69   70   71   72   73   74   75   76   77   78   79   80   81   82   83   84   85   86   87   88   89   90   91   92   93   94   95   96   97   98   99   100   101   102   103   104   105   106   107   108   109   110   111   112   113   114   115 )
Message
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/10/2023 9:12:34 AM
If you’ll forgive me, Dave, Margaret Thatcher didn’t become PM until 1979.

Her victory over Edward Heath in 1975 was when she secured the leadership of the Conservative Party.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/10/2023 10:13:12 AM
Topics on 2-11, in history? Moved from previous page for discussion!?

1543 King Henry VIII signs Anti French Covenant! Why did the English always hate the French!?? Can anyone explain it??

1766-1768 Colonists like Sam Adams stir up anti British imposed tax feelings! We're their good reasons for this?? What say you?

1814 Norway's independence proclaimed! How did this come about? Kai? Or anyone??

1861 Lincoln takes a train through Baltimore, why did he have to fear for his life? Even then? How did he get safely to DC?? What say you?

1861 US Congress passes resolution to not interfere with Slavery in any state!? So why didn't the Confederacy say lets not fight, this is good enough?? Yet they continued the Civil War?? To bad they would have saved a lot of lives!?
Comments anyone??

1916 Germany notifies the US they will sink its ships! Why? & how did the Americans respond? I take it they were already sinking Canadian ships & all Commonwealth ships? Comments??

1941 the Desert Fox arrives in N. Africa, his Panzers move quickly forward! What factors cause him to falter, & lose favor with Hitler?? Was the German code broken yet? & what of Malta being a thorn in the Nazis side? Anyone??

1945 Eisenhower picked as Supreme Allied Commander over Monty, The Brit. wasn't happy!?
Did he have a beef?? Any Monty fans out there??

1946 Operation Dead light ends when 116 of 156 Uboats scuttled! WWII is over? So What's up with this? I never knew it? Can anyone explain it???

1975 Margaret Thatcher defeats Mr. Heath as UK's PM.! Later she leads the UK to victory in the Falklands!? Was she a great leader?? Help us out here? Anyone??

Again plenty to discuss!
What say you??
Cheers,
MD


BTW, Thanks Dan, for the comments on NASA, & where the space program is going next??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/10/2023 6:22:16 PM
Phil,

Thanks for the correction!

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/11/2023 7:43:32 AM
With regards to our recent U Boat events, both WWI, & WWII.

Website all.about U boat & their losses, great site!?

[Read More]

Comments?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/11/2023 9:47:34 AM
Dave,

You have to reflect on the terrifying fate of the crews.

The claustrophobic conditions, the awareness of imminent doom, the ever closer explosions of the depth charges : the stuff of nightmares !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/11/2023 6:45:28 PM
Amen, Phil. My late Mother-in-law, a British-born driver for military brass and married to an RCAF tail gunner, had no reason to care about Nazi lives. But she always said that – after, of course, Allied bomber crews – she felt sorriest for the lot of those in U-boats.

Remember “Das Boot”? In Canada, I believe it was offered in three formats: German; German with subtitles; English voiceover. I can’t remember which version I saw, but I can remember the brilliant camera work during the great depth-charge scene which made me feel the claustrophobia, made me smell the fear-sweat.

I seem to remember reading that all sailors serving on submarines were volunteers. Can anyone out there confirm that memory?

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/11/2023 7:56:05 PM
MD, if you know “uboat.net”, you know the answers to your listed comment for Feb 11: Quote:
1916 Germany notifies the US they will sink its ships! Why? & how did the Americans respond? I take it they were already sinking Canadian ships & all Commonwealth ships? Comments?


Just some thoughts, particularly about WW1, at the beginning of which submersible naval craft were often seen as outside the standards of conduct in naval operations. When they became an effective part of the Imperial German Navy, the shock across the higher levels of the RN was palpable. Think 22 Sept 1914, when three RN cruisers in close patrol off the Broad Fourteens (near the Netherlands) were sunk by U-7, a German U-boat.[Read More]

Yes, Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue were considered obsolete ships. But they were only 15 years old when they were sunk. Fleet orders, IIRC, warned of torpedo action from destroyers. Torpedoes were a threat, but RN focus fell on torpedo delivery by small surface ship. This was a German victory, without doubt – perhaps one of the most lopsided of the war. British losses: 1459 officers and crew lost; 3 armed cruisers sunk. German losses: 0 men; 0 ships.

This was not a typical engagement, but it would change the nature of naval engagements for the remainder of the war. For the most part during WW1, submersibles were “home waters” vessels. They had limited range, only shallow submersion capabilities, and were largely blind and on their own once at sea. In opposition, there were no effective detection devices available, and the various Lords of the Admiralty and senior RN serving officers were slow to adopt convoy concepts.

Lots of stuff to dig out about WW1 naval warfare.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/11/2023 8:32:10 PM
One more thought about submersibles. Do any of you think about how in less than a century they went from being pariahs and unmentionables to amongst the most expensive, powerful and scariest weapons carriers of our time?

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2023 1:59:32 AM
Brian,

You mention that mightily effective screen drama Das boot. Yes that really hit home, didn’t it ?

In my childhood the film Run Silent, Run Deep made impact in its depiction of submarine warfare in the Pacific. Inspired by the book of the same name.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2023 7:37:44 AM
Quote:
Amen, Phil. My late Mother-in-law, a British-born driver for military brass and married to an RCAF tail gunner, had no reason to care about Nazi lives. But she always said that – after, of course, Allied bomber crews – she felt sorriest for the lot of those in U-boats.

Remember “Das Boot”? In Canada, I believe it was offered in three formats: German; German with subtitles; English voiceover. I can’t remember which version I saw, but I can remember the brilliant camera work during the great depth-charge scene which made me feel the claustrophobia, made me smell the fear-sweat.

I seem to remember reading that all sailors serving on submarines were volunteers. Can anyone out there confirm that memory?

Cheers
Brian G


Hi Brian,

My Brother in-law was a volunteer on a US Nuclear Sub, & he was a volunteer & said his crew mates were too! It's said in past wars most of those who served in the silent service were there of their own choice!?

Not sure about all the countries crews?
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2023 7:41:35 AM
Hey guys,

2-12 in history,

Like in 1554, Lady Jane Grey is executed of treason after only 9 days as Queen! What's up with that!?? Comments anyone?

1733 Georgia founded in Savannah, by James Oglethorpe! Hey I'm there, this week! Awesome historical town!!

1777 Captain James Cook arrives in New Zealand! I believe he losses some of his crew to cannibals? Anyone??

1870 last day allowed for US silver coins to circulate in Canada! why? What say you??

BTW, Later I had a scheme, where I would take Canadian coins and circulate them in the US for full US exchange value, by mixing them with US coins! No one notices coins, & I was able to pull it off! Just a kid back then I felt quite the genius!?? ☺

1873 the US goes on the Gold standard! No inflation with that??

1879 the British are annillated in the Battle of Isandlwana to the Zulus! The news reaches London! What commander was responsible for this fiasco?? Comments on this! Anyone??

Got to go heading to the great cities of Charleston, sc. & Savannah, Ga. this week! Historically speaking sadly, much of their wealth, built by the efforts of enslaved people?! Think about it slave labor was basically free & each slave on average was worth $1,000.00 dollars! It doesnt take a rocket scientist to think of how wealthy a planter elite guy was who had 100 slaves! Do the math!? Sad! Even George Washington, & Thomas Jefferson had their slaves beaten!?

Comments anyone??

See ya later,
MD

BTW today is Super Sunday, who do you like to win? KC or Philly?? I hear security there is incredible!? What say you??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2023 1:41:51 PM
Quote:
1870 last day allowed for US silver coins to circulate in Canada! why? What say you??


Prior to Confederation in 1867, the British provinces in North America operated on different monetary systems. There was no single system adopted by all of the provinces.

British coins were accepted as were American coins and even Spanish coins and Canadian coins from 1858 onward. They were all made of silver and gold so there was value in them. It was a bit of a free for all.

After Confederation, the Dominion of Canada established its own system, a decimal based system, so the country converted to dollars and the lower valued coins. But there was still a lot of American silver in circulation. American traders had been coming north during the civil war and were dropping a lot of American coin in the Canadas and the Maritime provinces and that became problematic for the banks because the face value of the American coins was more than the bulk bullion value. The coins were valued at 2.5% greater than their bullion value.

So the banks would only accept American coin if it was discounted. That became a problem for the merchants who would have to calculate how much to downgrade the American silver. The solution was to eliminate American coinage from circulation as much as possible. At the same time, the new Canada would issue its own coinage.

So the federal government asked the banks to begin collecting the American coin as it came in. The banks were paid a small fee by the government for doing so. Once collected the coins were shipped back to the US for exchange.

To discourage people from bringing US coin back into Canada, the government declared a US coin to be worth 20% less than its face value. This of course was also much less than its bullion value and so there was no percentage in using US coins though it was not illegal to do so.

And with that, Canadian coins became more popular and were used most of the time.

Cheers,

George
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2023 2:04:33 PM
Quote:
Amen, Phil. My late Mother-in-law, a British-born driver for military brass and married to an RCAF tail gunner, had no reason to care about Nazi lives. But she always said that – after, of course, Allied bomber crews – she felt sorriest for the lot of those in U-boats.

Remember “Das Boot”? In Canada, I believe it was offered in three formats: German; German with subtitles; English voiceover. I can’t remember which version I saw, but I can remember the brilliant camera work during the great depth-charge scene which made me feel the claustrophobia, made me smell the fear-sweat.

I seem to remember reading that all sailors serving on submarines were volunteers. Can anyone out there confirm that memory?

Cheers
Brian G


Yes, I can confirm that. They were considered the elite of the German Navy.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/12/2023 11:04:40 PM
Quote:
Like in 1554, Lady Jane Grey is executed of treason after only 9 days as Queen! What's up with that!?? Comments anyone?

Lots of politics and religion involved here, and lots of lineage to consider. But as far as I’m concerned, Lady Jane was a dupe – willing or not – in a power game her side lost. She was. at most, 17 on the day of her execution

Henry Tudor, who after defeating Richard III in battle became Henry VII, married Elizabeth of York. They had four children survive childhood. In order of birth, they were:
• Arthur (b. 1480)
• Margaret (b. 1489)
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2023 4:15:21 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Amen, Phil. My late Mother-in-law, a British-born driver for military brass and married to an RCAF tail gunner, had no reason to care about Nazi lives. But she always said that – after, of course, Allied bomber crews – she felt sorriest for the lot of those in U-boats.

Remember “Das Boot”? In Canada, I believe it was offered in three formats: German; German with subtitles; English voiceover. I can’t remember which version I saw, but I can remember the brilliant camera work during the great depth-charge scene which made me feel the claustrophobia, made me smell the fear-sweat.

I seem to remember reading that all sailors serving on submarines were volunteers. Can anyone out there confirm that memory?

Cheers
Brian G


Yes, I can confirm that. They were considered the elite of the German Navy.

Trevor


One of the more outlandish stories about the German U boat crews is that they were provided with sweaters made from the hair of Jewish women who had been sent to death camps. I don’t know how much credence to place on that.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2023 7:35:35 AM
Quote:
Dave,

You have to reflect on the terrifying fate of the crews.

The claustrophobic conditions, the awareness of imminent doom, the ever closer explosions of the depth charges : the stuff of nightmares !

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil, & Brian,

Here in my hometown of Muskegon, Michigan, is the USS Submarine Silversides Museum! A WWII submarine museum!? I have toured it many times!

[Read More] ???? Try googling it?

(having trouble making the site a "read more," could some one help??)

A submarine museum, where the history of WWII submarines confirms what you guys said!

Check it out,
MD

BTW How about that great super bowl? KC Chiefs 38, Philadelphia Eagles 35! Do you guys who don't live in the US watch the Super Bowl, is it even on your tv listings?? Just curious?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2023 8:18:34 AM
Quote:
[Do you guys who don't live in the US watch the Super Bowl, is it even on your tv listings?? Just curious?


Hi Dave,

We do get to see it on TV, but it's on at ridiculous o'clock over here, so doesn't get much in the way of viewing figures compared to other mainstream sports.

I've watched a couple over the years. I enjoy the spectacle but the sport itself is beyond me!

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2023 8:23:40 AM
Quote:
Colin, interesting reading you offer of the times. 48 years separating the executions, but an entire age in terms of reasoning, purpose and the like. As to death by the axe, I would suggest that while Mary Queen of Scots was executed for treason, Charles I was executed for losing a war. The axe was, of course, a death granted royalty and nobility; there were other deaths on hand for treason which were much less pleasant.

I think Mary’s status is often forgotten. Queen of France by marriage; Queen of Scots by birth; ties to the House of Tudor almost as strong as Elizabeth’s (her mother was Henry VIII’s elder sister). Whether she was guilty as charged, she was a tremendous threat to Elizabeth and the Church of England at a time perceived to be fraught with Catholic insurrection.

It would be interesting to track how monarchs were treated between 1400 and 1650. The murder of the Princes in the Tower may have broken tradition. I guess Lady Jane Grey, proclaimed but not crowned queen, was the first regicide of a sort; second would be Mary Queen of Scots. Charles I was I believe the first regicide by parliamentary decision (and without treason or usurpation as a reason).

Interesting period of history, don’t you think?

Cheers
Brian G


Hi Brian,

Sorry, I meant to reply earlier. This thread moves at a frantic pace and it's sometimes hard to keep up.

It's a fascinating period of history, one where many of the conventions of the monarchy truly started to take shape. More crucially, the state-sanctioned executions (murders?) of monarchs decisively established that Parliament (and, thus, the people) was ultimately sovereign. We managed to secure that understanding relatively early on, which prevented a surely inevitable revolution in the style of France? Had Charles I and his descendants been allowed to continue to rule as autocratically as their ancestors, we would have seen the Guillotine rolled out across Parliament Square as frequently as in Paris.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2023 8:41:31 AM
Colin,

As you say, the English people stole nearly a century and a half on the French when it came to officially sanctioned regicide.

I’m wondering whether the English historiographical tradition underplayed the bloodshed and violence of the Civil War of the 1640s.

It’s almost as if the Whig historians sought to depict their “ Glorious Revolution “ era as more civilised than the contemporaneous horrors of the Thirty Year’s warfare that raged on the European Continent.

Did the legend of English “exceptionalism” gain impetus from this sanitised depiction of what was actually a traumatic and sometimes atrocious ordeal ?

Even the worst excesses have been explained by the fact that they occurred in Ireland and Scotland, thereby enhancing the image of the English being more restrained and reasonable than the Celtic/Gallic fringe.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2023 9:04:17 AM
Phil,

That's a reasonable analysis. There's certainly an element of the history being sanitised. We know that the Civil War was brutal on combatants and civilians across the Three Kingdoms, but especially so in Ireland. Cromwell's army was brutally efficient; the King's army was efficiently brutal. Quarter was not asked nor given.

If there is English exceptionalism, it's that the Parliamentarians possessed the best military leaders who therefore managed to bring the conflict to a fairly rapid conclusion, thus avoiding the tumultuous carnage on the continent, as you referred to. Imagine a civil war where the forces were fairly evenly balanced and the leaders of similar quality? It could have lasted for decades, with the kingdoms being broken into pieces similar to the way the western Roman emperors and usurpers fought over the carcass of their domain in the last few decades of its existence.

The civil war was brutal; but it could have been apocalyptic, as it was in France.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/13/2023 9:36:58 PM
Quote:
Like in 1554, Lady Jane Grey is executed of treason after only 9 days as Queen! What's up with that!?? Comments anyone?

Lots of politics and religion involved here, and lots of lineage to consider. But as far as I’m concerned, Lady Jane was a dupe – willing or not – in a power game her side lost. She was. at most, 17 on the day of her execution

Henry Tudor, who after defeating Richard III in battle became Henry VII, married Elizabeth of York. They had four surviving issue. In order of birth, they were:
• Arthur (b. 20 Sept 1486; d. 2 April 1502). m Catherine of Aragon, 1501. No known issue)

• Margaret (b. 28 Nov 1489; d. 18 Oct 1541. m x 3; most significant to James IV of Scotland (1503-1513. Six issue surviving to adulthood, of which most prominent is James V of Scotland)

• Henry (b.28 June1491; d.28 Jan 1547. m x 6, of which 3 bore surviving issue. By Catherine of Aragon, Mary; By Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth; by Jane Seymour, Edward)

• Mary (b. 18 March 1496; d.25 June 1533. m x 2; most significant to this story Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. Four issue surviving to adulthood, including Frances Grey, Duchess of Suffolk)

We know that Henry VIII had a troubled married life. Most of it sprang from religious issues. Remember, however, that both Henry and his first wife Catherine were recognized separately by the Pope as Defenders of the Faith (kinda like a religious Medal of Honour). Too many see Henry’s problems flippantly: that is an insult to him.

Henry was “the Spare” when Arthur, his older brother and heir apparent to Henry VII, married Catherine of Aragon in 1501. Arthur died within months of the marriage, leaving Catherine a widow in a foreign court, but Henry made his troth. For the marriage to meet strictures of the time, Papal compensation was needed: under current laws of consanguinity, a man could not marry his brother’s widow. Facing the argument that the marriage between Arthur and Catherine was not consummated in the flesh, the Pope granted a dispensation to allow the marriage.

Catherine bore Henry VIII six children, only one of which survived infancy. Mary. But Henry needed sons and determined that God was unhappy with his marriage. Yes, Anne Boleyn was in his mind. But Henry believed that perhaps Catherine had had carnal relations with his brother Arthur, and that therefore their marriage was impure. He asked the Pope for an annulment of the marriage against the very argument he used to gain dispensation to marry. When the Pope refused the argument, Henry rejected papal supremacy and established a Church of England, with Henry as titular head and the Archbishop of Canterbury (I believe) as spiritual head of the new church. This allowed him to have his marriage to Catherine annulled, allowing him to welcome Anne Boleyn to his bed.

Anne Boleyn was not a popular queen, nor to many she was her marriage legitimate. Many believed that Henry, by the laws of God, was still married to Catherine. This issue would raise questions about the legitimacy of both Catherine’s daughter Mary and Anne’s daughter Elizabeth. Catherine and Mary would remain Catholic to the end. Anne and Elizabeth were officially members of the Church of England, but Anne professed a strong rather radical Protestantism, and had influence both with Henry and his Court. Particularly after the birth of Elizabeth, her only child to grow to maturity, she used her influence to have Henry’s daughter by Catherine declared illegitimate. It was a good argument: a child of an annulled marriage could not be legitimate. By a similar token, if the annulment of the Catherine-Henry marriage was unsanctified, then Elizabeth was by definition a bastard.

Not sure of this next comment, and would welcome any correction, but I believe it is at this time – with two female heirs and no sons – that Henry introduced laws which would allow females to become legitimate heirs if there were no males in direct line to the throne.

And then came a third wife, Jane Seymour, and a son. Edward was but a boy when he took the throne. He was a strong, what was seen as radical Protestant despite his relative youth. He would gain the throne from his father in 1547, and reaffirm England as a Protestant realm. But he ascended the throne at 10, and died on 6 July, 1553 at the age of 15.

Edward VI was a boy king, so England was actually governed by a Council of Regency throughout his reign. Worth noting is the second leader of his Council, one John Dudley. Note Dudley became 1st Earl of Warwick in 1550; note that one of his younger sons married Lady Jane Grey in 1553. Lady Jane was a grand-daughter of Mary Tudor, Henry VIII’s younger sister.

During Edward’s reign, under direction of his Council of Regents, Protestantism became somewhat more closely associated with C of E. Clerical celibacy was rejected. The Mass was removed from religious services. And as his final illness was recognized as terminal, he chose his successor: Wiki puts this succinctly:
“In February 1553, at age 15, Edward fell ill. When his sickness was discovered to be terminal, he and his council drew up a "Devise for the Succession" to prevent the country's return to Catholicism. Edward named his first cousin once removed, Lady Jane Grey, as his heir, excluding his half-sisters, Mary and Elizabeth.”

Lady Jane Grey. First cousin once removed from King Edward. Great-niece to Henry VIII. Married to Guilford (aka Guildford) Dudley. Nine-days Queen. Dead at 18. Not much to build a biography on, to be honest. But her status meant she was aware of how courts and monarchies functioned. Known her marriage value; known the connubial demands she must meet. Above all, she would have known her responsibilities to both her birth family and the family into which she married. Had her claim as Queen gained support, Guilford Dudley would probably be king. But …

I believe she was a lamb sacrificed on the alter of the ambition of the Dudley family. She had a legitimate though rather distant claim to the throne, but supporters of Mary, Catholic and unwed, rejected Lady Jane’s claim so rapidly that she is known as “the nine day’s Queen”. After that, she would spend her life in the Tower. In early 1554, she (and her husband) would be executed, and Mary I’s Catholic revival in England would occur.

Mary’s reign would bring about much death – she would not be called “Bloody Mary” for no reason! – and would see England drawn closer to traditional religious and monarchial structures – Mary’s marriage to Phillip II of Spain brought bitter fruit only because Mary died childless in 1558.

And so it goes. This story could be told from a host of viewpoints.
Cheers,
Brian G

[I know I belabour the religious aspects of the Tudor and Stuart periods. I do so because from the time of Henry VIII’s establishment of the Church of England until the transfer of the realm from Queen Anne to the Hanoverian Georges of the 18th century, religion was either the central issue or the secondary issue in nearly every major event in British history. ’Nuff said, I hope.]
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2023 8:30:30 AM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for this great response on how the English Monarchy evolved! (I learned a lot.) This proves my contention that you are MHO's #1 source for all things English Monarchy! ☺ A lot of Royal information here!!

I just hope there is not going to be a test on this!?

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2023 11:31:58 AM
Can someone explain the following phrase/phrases and use of please, I have never seen this before: Quote:
surviving issue
, Quote:
Six issue surviving
, Quote:
3 bore surviving issue
, etc.

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2023 11:56:34 AM
Doesn’t “issue” mean outcome ?

In this case, children.

Much to my irritation, it’s become a throw away word, used to describe anything problematic.

Sorry, we’re experiencing issues with our broadband service .

WTF ?

If a marriage is “without issue “ , it means that the couple have produced no children .

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2023 12:05:01 PM
Issue is used in that sense as well. English language don't care none at all.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2023 3:52:47 PM
Quote:
Doesn’t “issue” mean outcome ?

In this case, children.

Much to my irritation, it’s become a throw away word, used to describe anything problematic.

Sorry, we’re experiencing issues with our broadband service .

WTF ?

If a marriage is “without issue “ , it means that the couple have produced no children .

Regards, Phil


Thank you Phil, I was having some "issues" with all of that.

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2023 5:14:01 PM
It’s an adaptable word.

It serves as a verb, too.

One can “ issue” orders.

Here’s a passage that I particularly like, in which- to my mind - the word is used properly and to great effect.

One of the best British military historians of recent years - and a controversial one, at that - wrote of the Great War of 1914-18, comparing it with the American Civil War:

Yet in each case a four- year struggle, ferocious, costly, and frequently uncertain, would be needed to bring the thing to an issue .

John Terraine The Great War 1914-18, (1965) page 18.

No issues with that !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/14/2023 8:38:19 PM
Sorry if I’ve caused a fuss. Not meant. I believe it is a used geneologically to define in legal terms the legitimate offspring of married parents … as opposed to illegitimate offspring of either parent/offspring born outside the sanctity of the marriage bed. Nobody doubts Mary was born by Catherine or Elizabeth by Anne, and the assumption is that the father was Henry VIII. Either wife may have committed adultery, which in Anne’s case became an aspect of her trial. Adultery – by a Queen – was considered treason, since it threatened the legitimacy of the monarchy and its succession. A king, of course, could take his pleasures as he may; any children born out of wedlock by his sexual partner might be known as the child of the king, but may or may not be recognized as the child of a king. The child would not be included when listing issue.

Take it one step further. When you add “surviving”, typically you are talking about issue who survived infancy. Many new-borns died in the first two years of life, and records were not kept so well that a child dead during infancy was automatically recorded. IIRC, there are still questions concerning the number of issue of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. I mentioned the four surviving issue of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York – Arthur, Margaret, Henry and Mary – but IIRC there is talk of there being a fifth child who died in infancy. Could have that wrong.

I could continue to bore all of you with a discussion of what is in its own way an interesting topic – illegitimacy – but will instead end by noting that, according to the SOED, “Issue” as I have used it is a recognized use of the word.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2023 8:30:43 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Doesn’t “issue” mean outcome ?

In this case, children.

Much to my irritation, it’s become a throw away word, used to describe anything problematic.

Sorry, we’re experiencing issues with our broadband service .

WTF ?

If a marriage is “without issue “ , it means that the couple have produced no children .

Regards, Phil


Thank you Phil, I was having some "issues" with all of that.
Dan


Etymology is fascinating. Especially when having to learn foreign languages. "Issue" originally meant "brought forth". So, children, orders, books and of course situations. So essentially anything that has been "brought forth".

The word "nice" originally meant "straight" or "accurate". A term coming out of 18thC gardening.

"Responsibility" comes from response ie having to "answer " for - to the king or whoever.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2023 8:32:02 AM
Only 1 topic on 2-13 in history.?

1920 Switzerland is recognized as perpetually neutral by the League of Nations! Are they really neutral? & does it effect both World Wars? What say you??

Just 1 event! Do you have more??

Thanks,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2023 8:34:17 AM
Wow 2 for topics on 2-14 in history.?

For example, 1929 the St Valentine's Massacre! BTW you don't want to forget your wife on Valentines Day, did you??

1945 the Fire Bombing of Dresden! Comments on this mission!? Anyone??

Any other events?? What about 2-15 in history? There has to be more events?? Anyone?

cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2023 1:25:49 PM
1942 : The Fall of Singapore.

A calamitous defeat for the British, a veritable disgrace.

If ever there was one event that could signify the collapse of Empire, this was it.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/15/2023 7:59:52 PM
Amen, Phil.

I’m staring at my screen right now because I don’t know how to ask a bunch of questions:
• Do you distinguish between a defeat and a disgrace. I tend to believe they should be separated. This raises the issue (sorry, there’s that damned word again! ) of whether the British Empire could have been saved despite the wartime defeat of the British troops defending throughout the reason.
• What weight of responsibility do you place on the shoulders of WSC for British policy concerning its Asian/South Asian colonies.? As you may know, I’m not a WSC fan, and I find his displayed view of Empire questionable at kindest. But I’m not certain he established, though he may have supported, the apparent arrogance of British ex-pats who were resident in most British enclaves throughout the Empire.
• Has “Raffles” received fair treatment in all the stories of the fall of Singapore? In the little reading I’ve done about the fall of Singapore, “Raffles” appears to act badly with relation to admitting defending colonial officers, and if that is the case it would show “Raffles” as emblematic of the “disgrace” accompanying Singapore’s fall. But there are also stories of the final days, when IJA troops were across the Strait and the scramble to escape was in full spate, of British couples taking their morning tea at “Raffles”. That vignette can be read a number of ways, which in turn can suggest anything from indifference to a total lack of alternatives.

Lots to talk about here.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/16/2023 5:58:26 AM
Brian,

Thanks for your comments.

Yes, I know you’ve got “ issues “ with Churchill.

Ironically, you paraphrase him in a sense when you differentiate between defeat and disgrace.

Churchill was mortified by the fall of Tobruk, and, in his loss of composure, he blurted out “ defeat is one thing, disgrace another ! “

I’m distracted at the moment, but will return soon.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/16/2023 7:04:15 AM
Hey guys, check for topics on 2-16 in history.?

1804 USN invades Tripoli Harbor, sinks it's own ship!? What happened??

1838 hundreds of Dutch settlers killed by Zulus! What's that about? Anyone??

1861 11 yr old girl tell Lincoln to wear a beard, he follows her advice! He becomes President, keeps it! Comments on the humanity of Abe!? Anyone??

1862 USS Grant capture Ft. Donalson, 12,000 Rebs surrender! Big turning point of the CW in the west!? Comments??

1916 German Official says Germany will pay restitution for the sinking of Lusitania! How did that go over?? What say you??

1923 King Tuts Tomb opened, Howard Carter & others cursed & later die! Do you believe there was a curse?? What say you??

1982 Ocean Ridge Oil Rig lost off Newfoundland 84 die! How did this catastrophe happen?? Anyone??

Carry on,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
2/16/2023 7:16:37 AM
Quote:
1942 : The Fall of Singapore.

A calamitous defeat for the British, a veritable disgrace.

If ever there was one event that could signify the collapse of Empire, this was it.

Regards, Phil




Hi Phil,

I'm inclined to agree with you! Even the IJA was shocked that the Commonwealth forces were surrendering, they had such a superiority in numbers, & a pretty good defensive position! Not a good time for the Empire that the sun never sets on!???? Anyone out there want to defend what happened there??

A few factors that didnt help,

The WWI type planes used against Japanese Zeros, resulted in a 1 sided fight!? Comments?

The IJA actually used bicycles, how did that work?

The HMS lost 2 of their best capital ships? What was the story there!?

Did Europe 1st hurt the Commonwealth's poor showing?

Poor leadership by the higher ups for the Brits!? What say you??

I pity the poor surrendering troops! Their future will not be pretty!??

What say Ya'll??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/16/2023 11:25:08 AM
Brian and Dave,

A quick survey of some books on my shelves does nothing to vindicate the record of this monstrous British defeat.

If you’ll forgive my vulgarity, it was a disaster “ from arsehole to breakfast time “, with all the worst attributes of British imperial rule on display.

The fate of the prisoners who had surrendered to the Japanese was “ fatal to many, and vile to all”.

Indeed, I’m tempted to suggest that the final death toll amongst those Commonwealth prisoners who perished in captivity was higher than it might have been if the troops had fought it out and shed their blood in a decent attempt at defence.

A friend of mine told me that his dad had been captured at Singapore : he had just disembarked from the troopship and was led into Japanese captivity before he had even been deployed for the defence.

A grotesque story that is hard to believe, let alone account for.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/16/2023 6:47:03 PM
MD, good post.Quote:
The IJA actually used bicycles, how did that work?
Slowly, but more quickly than on foot. Seriously, I seem to have read that the bicycles were stolen from local populace by IJA troops as needed. The Malay peninsula was considered impenetrable to vehicular traffic, so Allied defenders were typically either in place or dropped in place at crucial points. These were overrun more rapidly than assumed possible by mobile Japanese troops, both through rapid movement by previously dropped IJA and by accelerated sea drops. Oh, and of course some years later the same tactics (cycle mobility) would be used during the war in Vietnam.
Quote:
Did Europe 1st hurt the Commonwealth's poor showing?
Oddly, I’m going to say no. IIUC, “Europe first” was a bi- or perhaps multi-lateral agreement on resource commitment should GB and USA become allies against enemies on two fronts. I would substitute “Europe first” with “England first”; then I would agree with your comment. Overstating somewhat, the German threat to the UK was always better countered with better weapons than threats elsewhere. Think Malta and her air coverage in the early years. Think North Africa. Think troops sent from Canada to Hong Kong in late 1941. Think nasty exchanges between UK and Oz/Kiwi pols, whose troops were still being held to defend North Africa as the Japanese approached the Oz mainland.
Quote:
Poor leadership by the higher ups for the Brits!? What say you?
Politically, see my assessment above. I would argue “Yes”. Militarily, I haven’t yet come to a decision. I sense the following:
• on at least some occasions, senior commanders who were perceived to “blot their copy book” found themselves sent to positions of authority in the British South Asian and Eastern commands.
• in a number of instances, weapons appear to have been allotted by nationality (British first), or by distance from England (Malta after GB; Greece before NA; NA after Malta; India and the Far East after all else).
• an argument might be made for allotting air base space for questionable reasons. The USAAF 8th was given nearest territory to Europe, but I assume that’s because their bombers for the most part didn’t have the “legs” to be based elsewhere.

A third side is a cultural one. In this instance, I believe it fair to question whether broad British culture during WW2 had much say in decisions made by Parliament, War Cabinet, Prime Minister or the host of “authorities” which represented British interests globally.
Quote:
I pity the poor surrendering troops! Their future will not be pretty!?
No, it wasn’t. I tend to agree with Phil’s comment: Quote:
Indeed, I’m tempted to suggest that the final death toll amongst those Commonwealth prisoners who perished in captivity was higher than it might have been if the troops had fought it out and shed their blood in a decent attempt at defence.
Even in what I see as a bastardized sense of “bushido” (The Way of the Warrior) inculcated in the WW2 IJA, there are indications that fighting to the end was seen as more honourable than surrendering without a fight. To surrender without an extreme test of arms was to strip the surrenderers of honour as men and as warriors. They would not, therefore, be treated as men.

Interestingly, after the FDR declaration of “unconditional surrender as a fixed part of Germany’s end, many of the Wehrmacht fought more frantically. In late 1944, German troops had a slogan that said a great deal more than is often realized. It read: “Enjoy the war. The peace will be terrible.”

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
2/16/2023 6:53:22 PM
“Enjoy the war. The peace will be terrible.”

What goes around comes around.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
2/17/2023 4:20:19 AM
Brian,

“ ….on at least some occasions, senior commanders who were perceived to ‘blot their copy book’ found themselves sent to positions of authority in the British South Asian and Eastern commands.”

That horrible acronym comes to my mind :

FILTH

Failed in London, tried Hong Kong

This is a modern trope , applied to financial and administrative systems, but, in a wider sense, I wonder how far the British viewed their colonies as a dumping ground for mediocrity. The Malay and Singapore culture of British colonial rule exemplified this in the inter war years, and in 1941-2 the chickens came home to roost. That’s my suspicion, anyway.

Editing : look no further than George Orwell’s Burmese Days - his depiction of a tour of duty in the Burmese Police in the 1920s - to gauge the dismal calibre of British colonial rule in those times.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Page 56 of 115 (Page:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28   29   30   31   32   33   34   35   36   37   38   39   40   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50   51   52   53   54   55    56    57   58   59   60   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69   70   71   72   73   74   75   76   77   78   79   80   81   82   83   84   85   86   87   88   89   90   91   92   93   94   95   96   97   98   99   100   101   102   103   104   105   106   107   108   109   110   111   112   113   114   115 )

© 2024 - MilitaryHistoryOnline.com LLC