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Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/11/2023 6:33:02 PM
MD, there is also a relatively new Toonie release officially called the “Black-Ring Toonie”, also known as the Gothic Toonie or just the Black Toonie. It was created in memory of Elizabeth II, and is quite striking!

Don’t know about the rest of Canada, but this coin has seen limited release in BC. As of last showing, nobody I’ve talked to in Victoria has seen one, and I’ve asked store clerks and pub servers – who would have seen them if they were around. I have one; my brother – who lives in Sechelt, a small rather isolated town some 60 miles NW of Vancouver – received four in change over a period of two weeks, and then he supply dried up.

[Read More]

Cheers
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/11/2023 7:06:58 PM
Quote:
Vimy Ridge is a special, haunting yet peaceful place; the terrain remembers the toll taken here in 1917. Many people report these feelings when visiting the Great War battlefields. I wonder if this will pass with time as the conflict moves out of living memory?

Yet, I answer my own question with my own recent experiences. Culloden and Glencoe both have a similar feel to the Great War battlefields, although it perhaps they are more morose given the aftermath of both of these traumatic episodes of Scottish history. I will probably not revisit either location; I am glad I went but I don't think I particularly enjoyed either visit on an emotional level.

I share your post fully, Colin.The Vimy Monument, rather too grandiose though it is, struck me much more forcefully than the recreated trench work adjoining. The popsicle-stick crosses, combined with the view and tranquility of the setting, was overpowering. And I got the same feeling all across the beaches of Normandy.

I don’t think it’s just closeness in time or possible potential personal links which make certain places so powerful, and I’ve never personally experienced the melancholy you relate from Culloden and Glencoe. But I have friends who visited Auschwitz recently. They are incredibly thankful they made that decision, but will never visit again.

My own experience took place in Rome as far back as 1960. I was no quite 19. My experience in the Coliseum bordered on fantasy; I was poorly educated high school graduate, and stepped into a reverie that let me see the Roman crowds and the gladiators. I was literally awe-struck. And it changed my life: I walked in expecting nothing much, and walked out knowing what I wanted from life.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/11/2023 7:11:05 PM
dup
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2023 1:41:01 AM
Brian,

“ The very stones scream out at you.”

That’s the description of an intense atmosphere experienced by a visitor to the battlefield of Verdun.

I’m convinced that intense sensations can emanate from structures - whether they be ferro-concrete or stone, brick or wood - in places where people have been in extremis.

The Coliseum certainly fulfills those criteria.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2023 7:06:25 AM
Quote:
MD, there is also a relatively new Toonie release officially called the “Black-Ring Toonie”, also known as the Gothic Toonie or just the Black Toonie. It was created in memory of Elizabeth II, and is quite striking!

Don’t know about the rest of Canada, but this coin has seen limited release in BC. As of last showing, nobody I’ve talked to in Victoria has seen one, and I’ve asked store clerks and pub servers – who would have seen them if they were around. I have one; my brother – who lives in Sechelt, a small rather isolated town some 60 miles NW of Vancouver – received four in change over a period of two weeks, and then he supply dried up.

[Read More]

Cheers
Brian G




Hello Brian,

I haven't seen any of the black ring toonies yet but you may still buy them from the Mint. The Mint will sell a roll of 25 for $80.

The number of these toonies minted was five million but I do not know anything of regional distribution. Now that I think about it, I don't receive a lot of change these days because I use my debit card for just about everything.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2023 7:15:59 AM


Lets check 4-12 in history, what about the following topics? Comments, anyone??

1204 the Crusaders Occupy & plunder Constantinople all in the name of religion! What say you about the Crusades? Were they a good thing??

1606 England adopts the Union Flag, later the Union Jack, does anyone have a website with the various flags of that island nation??

1782 the Battle of the Saints leads the British fleet over the French in the West Indies, how does this effect the area, & N. America??

1844 Texas is annexed by the US, how does this set with Mexico, & the US South, how much stronger do the slave states become?? Anyone?

1861 the Battle for Fort Sumter! Did S Carolina & the Confederacy really believe they could leave the Union without a long horrific war? Did they really misjudged the situation? What say you??

1864 CSA Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest captures Fort Pillow! What really happened with regards to Black Union Troops surrendering! Anyone have a take on this??

1869 N. Carolina passes anti Kru Klux Klan law, how did they know the Klan would be so horrific racially? How is the Klan today? Why would they support certain politicians? Anyone??

1942 Japan executes 100 Philippineo Officers! I would say that's a war crime, what say you?
Was The IJA officers held accountable?? Anyone??

1945 Canadian troops liberate the Concentration Camp from the Nazis in Westerbrok, Holland! Anyone have the details on what they found there??

1985 16th Shuttle Mission, what say you about this NASA program? Certainly cost saving, reusing Shuttles??

Regards,
MD


BTW thanks George, & Brian for the info on the Canadian toonies, cool coins for sure!!
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2023 7:38:59 AM
On April 12, 1770, the British government moves to mollify outraged colonists by repealing most of the clauses of the hated Townshend Act. Initially passed on June 29, 1767, the Townshend Act constituted an attempt by the British government to consolidate fiscal and political power over the American colonies by placing import taxes on many of the British products bought by Americans, including lead, paper, paint, glass and tea.

The measure bore the name of its sponsor, Charles Townshend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, who was notoriously conservative in his understanding of colonial rights. Townshend’s annual Revenue Act levied a controversial package of taxes on the colonists, including duties on lead, painters’ colors, paper and tea.

The chancellor also undermined the colonial judiciary by increasing the power of the British navy’s vice-admiralty courts over American colonists and initiating an American Board of Customs Commissioners charged with enforcing his new import taxes. These taxes were used at least in part to fund the salaries of colonial governors and judges to ensure their financial, and thus political, independence from the colonial assemblies. Townshend also moved British troops from the western frontier to the eastern seaboard, where they were both less expensive to supply and more troubling to colonists, who feared that they were being asked to cover the expenses of their own military oppression.

Riotous protest of the Townshend Acts in the colonies often invoked the phrase no taxation without representation. Colonists eventually decided not to import British goods until the act was repealed and to boycott any goods that were imported in violation of their non-importation agreement. Colonial anger culminated in the deadly Boston Massacre on March 5, 1770.

Also on March 5, Townshend’s successor (he had died soon after proposing the hated act), Lord Frederick North, asked Parliament to repeal the Townshend Acts except for the duty on tea; he considered all the duties bad for trade and, thus, expensive for the British empire. However, he wished to avoid the appearance of weakness in the face of colonial protest and thus left the tea tax in place. This strategy successfully divided colonial merchants, eager, for their own enrichment, to resume trade in all British goods barring tea, from colonial craftsmen, who profited from non-importation agreements, and wished to leave them in place as long as the tax on tea remained in effect.
​https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...a023eefe0cd3d2

=============================================================================================================

The Tea Act, passed by Parliament on May 10, 1773, granted the British East India Company Tea a monopoly on tea sales in the American colonies. This was what ultimately compelled a group of Sons of Liberty members on the night of December 16, 1773 to disguise themselves as Mohawk Indians, board three ships moored in Boston Harbor, and destroy over 92,000 pounds of tea. The Tea Act was the final straw in a series of unpopular policies and taxes imposed by Britain on her American colonies. The policy ignited a “powder keg” of opposition and resentment among American colonists and was the catalyst of the Boston Tea Party. The passing of the Tea Act imposed no new taxes on the American colonies. The tax on tea had existed since the passing of the 1767 Townshend Revenue Act. Along with tea, the Townshend Revenue Act also taxed glass, lead, oil, paint, and paper. Due to boycotts and protests, the Townshend Revenue Act’s taxes were repealed on all commodities except tea in 1770. The tea tax was kept in order to maintain Parliament’s right to tax the colonies. The Tea Act was not intended to anger American colonists, instead it was meant to be a bailout policy to get the British East India Company out of debt.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2023 10:24:10 AM
Quote:
945 Canadian troops liberate the Concentration Camp from the Nazis in Westerbrok, Holland! Anyone have the details on what they found there??


They found 876 inmates there, mostly Jews. Westerbork was a transit camp and not an extermination camp. When Dutch Jews were scooped they were sent to Westerbork to await a train to take them to other camps with the facilities to kill on a mass scale. Jews from other parts of western Europe were sometimes routed through Westerbork, as were Roma people.

The guards, some of whom were Dutch Nazis had fled piecemeal in the days before liberation. The transports had ceased to operate in Sept. of 1944 so the remaining inmates lived in fear that they would be sent by train until liberated. Why the Germans stopped transporting in 1944 I do not know. Over 100,000 Jews and Roma and resistance fighters had spent time in Westerbork awaiting a train to take them to other camps. Only 5000 ever returned.

Westerbork had been operating since October of 1939.

The first group of Canadians were from a recce platoon and they approached cautiously noting that it was very quiet. They couldn't see any people. Then doors opened.

The inmates were shouting, "The Tommies are here, The Tommies are here". Some jumped on the Bren gun carriers or the Daimler scout cars for a ride into town.
One of the Canadian soldiers who has written about the liberation in his memoirs said that the man on the hood of the scout car ripped off the Star of David on his uniform and handed it to the soldier and he kept it as a keepsake.

There is one other story about Westerbork that I recall reading. Apparently intelligence had indicated that Westerbork was actually a German military camp and the Canadians were bringing up artillery to bomb it. One of the inmates had escaped the night before when he noticed that the guards were gone. He swam across the canal next to the camp and ran into Canadian soldiers. He was taken to an officer to explain that the camp was full of prisoners. The officer was skeptical but he sent the man back to the camp with a small group or Canadian soldiers to confirm his story.
They did so and the artillery shoot was called off.

Anne Frank spent some time at Westerbork before being transported to Auschwitz, believe.



The final transport from Westerbork




Cheers,

George


DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2023 1:56:52 PM
Quote:
1985 16th Shuttle Mission, what say you about this NASA program? Certainly cost saving, reusing Shuttles??


135 missions flew 355 actual astronauts and cosmonauts (306 men, 49 women) from 16 different countries; 14 of whom died, over a 30-year period. Space exploration may be the final frontier but, that frontier is so massively big, we should never stop exploring. Was the shuttle program a success, I say yes as I can think of no valid reason why it was not.

Columbia shuttle launch, April 12, 1981:

"42 nautical miles downrange"

"Columbia you are looking a little hot and all your calls will be a little early"

"Young and Crippen really moving out now, velocity now reading 6200 feet per second."

"What a view, what a view."

"Countdown" by RUSH

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2023 7:59:38 AM
The Soviet government officially accepts blame for the Katyn Massacre of World War II, when nearly 5,000 Polish military officers were murdered and buried in mass graves in the Katyn Forest. The admission was part of Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev’s promise to be more forthcoming and candid concerning Soviet history.

In 1939, Poland had been invaded from the west by Nazi forces and from the east by Soviet troops. Sometime in the spring of 1940, thousands of Polish military officers were rounded up by Soviet secret police forces, taken to the Katyn Forest outside of Smolensk, massacred, and buried in a mass grave. In 1941, Germany attacked the Soviet Union and pushed into the Polish territory once held by the Russians. In 1943, with the war against Russia going badly, the Germans announced that they had unearthed thousands of corpses in the Katyn Forest. Representatives from the Polish government-in-exile (situated in London) visited the site and decided that the Soviets, not the Nazis, were responsible for the killings. These representatives, however, were pressured by U.S. and British officials to keep their report secret for the time being, since they did not want to risk a diplomatic rupture with the Soviets. As World War II came to an end, German propaganda lashed out at the Soviets, using the Katyn Massacre as an example of Russian atrocities. Soviet leader Joseph Stalin flatly denied the charges and claimed that the Nazis were responsible for the slaughter. The matter was not revisited for 40 years.

By 1990, however, two factors pushed the Soviets to admit their culpability. First was Gorbachev’s much publicized policy of “openness” in Soviet politics. This included a more candid appraisal of Soviet history, particularly concerning the Stalin period. Second was the state of Polish-Soviet relations in 1990. The Soviet Union was losing much of its power to hold onto its satellites in Eastern Europe, but the Russians hoped to retain as much influence as possible. In Poland, Lech Walesa’s Solidarity movement was steadily eroding the power of the communist regime. The Katyn Massacre issue had been a sore spot in relations with Poland for over four decades, and it is possible that Soviet officials believed that a frank admission and apology would help ease the increasing diplomatic tensions. The Soviet government issued the following statement: “The Soviet side expresses deep regret over the tragedy, and assesses it as one of the worst Stalinist outrages.”

Whether the Soviet admission had any impact is difficult to ascertain. The communist regime in Poland crumbled by the end of 1990, and Lech Walesa was elected president of Poland in December of that year. Gorbachev resigned in December 1991, which brought an effective end to the Soviet Union.


Soviets admit to Katyn Massacre of WWII
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/soviets-admit-to-katyn-massacre?cmpid=email-hist-tdih-2023-0413-04132023&om_rid=21539c69abde70e4e3fda02b9d14d1819c3badeaf5a2bcab48a023eefe0cd3d2
The Soviet government officially accepts blame for the Katyn Massacre of World War II, when nearly 5,000 Polish military officers were murdered and buried in mass graves in the Katyn Forest. The admission was part of Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev’s promise to be more forthcoming and candid concerning Soviet history. In 1939, Poland had been […]
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2023 8:08:54 AM
Hi MHO,

Check 4-13 in history, A few topics below!? comments anyone?

1769 Capt. James Cook arrives in Tahiti, what an experience that had to be? It's on my bucket list, slim chance?Comments on Europeans visiting Tahiti early on??

1860 1st Pony Express reaches California, what a dangerous, exciting job, that had to be??

1861 after 34 hours of bombardment, Fort Sumter surrenders, no caution used by the attackers from South Carolina!? Citizens watching & cheering from Charleston roof tops! How did it come to this? Anyone??

1904 Russian Fleet loses to the Japanese! How could Japan defeat Russia? Anyone??

1919 British Troops open fire on Indian citizens, including women, & children! Killing 350! How could this possibly happen? I thought the Brits. were good guys? Anyone??

1941 USSR, & Japan sign a non aggression pact! I thought they were enemies? Why then??

1945, A single Canadian soldier, Leo Major liberates a Dutch town of Zwolle!? How could he possibly do this?? Anyone??

1970 Apollo13 has a mid flight explosion, & must fight for there lives! It was quite the world-wide event? Where were you & what did you think about their plight? Comments?? Also a great Tom Hanks movie on it! Have you seen it??

Again lots to discuss here??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2023 6:56:39 PM
D
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2023 9:20:03 PM
Quote:
1945, A single Canadian soldier, Leo Major liberates a Dutch town of Zwolle!? How could he possibly do this?? Anyone??


Léo Major was French-Canadian but he was born in New Bedford, Massachusetts. His parents were there for work. They returned to Montréal when Léo was an infant. Born in 1921, he was just the right age to fight in the war. He volunteered in 1940 and joined one of our French speaking regiments, Le Régiment de la Chaudière. He had been an active hunter in his youth and was an excellent shot so he was assigned to an elite sniper group.

His regiment landed in Normandy on June 6 and he started making an impact almost immediately:

He was sent inland from the beach to scout and encountered a squad of German soldiers in a half track (Hanomag) They were moving slowly along a road and Major jumped from the hedgerow and onto the hood of the half track. He emptied his STEN into the soldiers in the back and killed them. The driver tried to poke a weapon through a slit to kill Major but Léo replaced his magazine quickly and killed the driver. He pulled the bodies from the vehicle and discovered some important communication so he rigged a white flag on the half track and drove it back to his regimental HQ where he received great praise.

About one week after that event he and four other soldiers ran into a group of SS soldiers. They killed them but not before one of them tossed a phosphorous grenade which burned Major but also blinded him in his left eye. He was told that he would be going home once he recovered but he protested that and told his officers that he only needed his right eye to shoot. For some reason, they let him stay.



After the Normandy battles, his regiment followed the path of the Canadian army as they reduced the coastal ports.

He participated in one of the most important operations of the war for the allies, the Battle of the Scheldt. At one point in the battle he had captured 93 German soldiers and for that he was to be awarded the DCM. But Major was an outspoken man which accounts for the several times that he was promoted to NCO and then busted back down. When he found out that Gen. Montgomery would be awarding his medal, he refused it and went into a long tirade indicating his displeasure with Monty whom he felt had spent too much time on Market Garden. He felt that his regiment had taken too many casualties at the Scheldt because of it. He wasn't disciplined this time and his officers just squirreled the medal away for another time.

While assisting the regimental padre in collecting German bodies for burial, the vehicle that they were in hit a mine. Léo was blown from the vehicle but he had broken a couple of spinal bones. The padre was killed. They were going to send him home but he asked them not to do that and he spent a few weeks recovering in a Dutch home and then returned to duty. His back would continue to bother him until he was treated back home after the war.

The Canadians continued to push the Germans back, town by town. Sometimes the Germans would leave quickly while other times they made a fight of it. And so when Léo's division arrived outside of Zwolle, they pause and asked for volunteers to scout the town. The Canadians tried to avoid the use of a lot of artillery on the Dutch towns but Zwolle was known to be the HQ of an SS regiment. Supposedly there were 1500 troops in the town and so an artillery shoot was prepared.

Léo and his best friend, Willy Arsenault, volunteered for the recce patrol. As they approached the town somewhere near midnight, Willy made some noise and a German MG opened up and cut him down. Major attacked and killed the two men in the MG pit. Seeing that his buddy was dead, he took his STEN and magazines and in a rage, entered the town.

Now this is where historical accounts vary. Some of the accounts of Major's exploits sound like a Rambo movie. They weren't far off I suppose. But the fact is that Major did not defeat 1500 troops by himself. What he did was to encourage them to leave and some of them already had, realizing that the Canadians were closing in.

But Léo did some rather crazy things. He ran about Zwolle, killing German soldiers when he saw them. He came across two sentries behind sandbags and the story says that they were asleep. He picked up one of their Mausers and dispatched them with the butt end, crushing their skulls. Major continued into town noting that it was very quiet with few soldiers out and about.

He commandeered a Kubelwagen and its driver and he forced the driver to drive rapidly through town with lights off. Major tossed grenades and would leave the vehicle to kill soldiers if he saw them. The driver didn't try to run off for some reason.

One story says that Léo entered an SS officers club and killed four men sitting at a table playing cards. He encountered German officers in a car and disarmed them and convinced them that the Canadians were in the town and that they should leave.

Major was flagged down by a citizen who happened to be the local resistance leader. They drove to his HQ and he summoned other resistance fighters and Major place them at strategic positions while he collected the body of his friend and took him back to the Canadian lines. Major had spent about six hours in Zwolle.

The Canadians entered the down on April 14 and there were no Germans there. The people of the town pointed to Léo, the "one eyed ghost" as their saviour. Major has been back to Zwolle a number of times and is feted everywhere he goes. The people have named a street after him and in 2008, he was made an honorary citizen of Zwolle.



Now that should have been enough war for one man and Major did return to Montréal and became a machinist. But the Korean war broke out and the Canadian government was recruiting veterans of WW2. And Léo Major re-enlisted.

He fought in a couple of big battles in Korea including one at Little Gibraltar (Hill 355). The Americans were on this hill and they were pushed off by thousands of Chinese. The Canadians were occupying a section of the line abutting the US position. The Canadian position was below Hill 227 which the Chinese had occupied.

Major took a small group of 18 through the Chinese lines and retook Hill 227. But the Chinese counter attacked and the Canadians held through the night until the Americans could retake 355.
For his leadership, Major who was now a sergeant was awarded another DCM.

Quite a soldier.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2023 7:54:27 AM
Wow George,

His story does read like a Rambo Movie, they could of actually made a movie out of his exploits!? At the least it could be made into the storyline for the next Sylvester Stallone Rambo Picture!?

Unbelievable!?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2023 8:01:05 AM
Guys,

Lets again check 4-12 in history, what about the following topics? Not all Commented on yet, anyone??

1204 the Crusaders Occupy & plunder Constantinople all in the name of religion! What say you about the Crusades? Were they a good thing??

1606 England adopts the Union Flag, later the Union Jack, does anyone have a website with the various flags of that island nation??

1782 the Battle of the Saints leads the British fleet over the French in the West Indies, how does this effect the area, & N. America??

1844 Texas is annexed by the US, how does this set with Mexico, & the US South??

1861 the Battle for Fort Sumter! Did S Carolina & the Confederacy really believe they could leave the Union without a long horrific war?? What say you??

1864 CSA Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest captures Fort Pillow! What really happened with regards to Black Union Troops surrendering! Anyone have a take on this??

1869 N. Carolina passes anti Kru Klux Klan law, how did they know the Klan would be so horrific racially? How is the Klan today? Anyone??

1942 Japan executes 100 Philippineo Officers! I would say that's a war crime, what say you?
Was The IJA officers held accountable?? Anyone??

1945 Canadian troops liberate the Concentration Camp from the Nazis in Westerbrok, Holland! Anyone have the details on what they found there?? Thanks for the replies!

1985 16th Shuttle Mission, what say you about this NASA program? Certainly cost saving, reusing Shuttles??

Check 4-13 in history, as well!? not all commented on? anyone?

1769 Capt. James Cook arrives in Tahiti, what an experience that had to be? It's on my bucket list, slim chance?Comments on Europeans visiting Tahiti early on??

1860 1st Pony Express reaches California, what a dangerous, exciting job, that had to be??

1861 after 34 hours of bombardment, Fort Sumter surrenders, no caution used by the attackers from South Carolina!? Citizens watching & cheering from Charleston roof tops! How did it come to this? Anyone??

1904 Russian Fleet loses to the Japanese! How could Japan defeat Russia? Anyone??

1919 British Troops open fire on Indian citizens, including women, & children! Killing 350! How could this possibly happen? I thought the Brits. were good guys? Anyone??

1941 USSR, & Japan sign a non aggression pact! I thought they were enemies? Why then??

1945, A single Canadian soldier, Leo Major liberates a Dutch town of Zwolle!? How could he possibly do this?? Anyone?? Thanks George, for the excellent reply!

1970 Apollo13 has a mid flight explosion, & must fight for there lives! It was quite the world-wide event? Where were you & what did you think about their plight? Comments?? Also a great Tom Hanks movie on it! Have you seen it??

Again lots to discuss here??
Regards,
MD




BTW the big events for today April 14, is the unsinkable ship RMS Titanic hits an ice berg & sinks less than 3 hours later! Lately there have been new theories on what happened to contribute to this catastrophe!? Any websites or posts??

And of course John Wilkes Booth assassinates President Abraham Lincoln an event that greatly effected America! Comments on the tragedy, & its aftermath! anyone?? Did it actually hurt post CW America?? What say you??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
home  USA
Posts: 953
Joined: 2021
This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2023 8:05:57 AM
President Abraham Lincoln is shot in the head at Ford’s Theatre in Washington, D.C. on April 14, 1865. The assassin, actor John Wilkes Booth, shouted, “Sic semper tyrannis! (Ever thus to tyrants!) The South is avenged,” as he jumped onto the stage and fled on horseback. Lincoln died the next morning.

Booth, who remained in the North during the war despite his Confederatesympathies, initially plotted to capture President Lincoln and take him to Richmond, the Confederate capital. However, on March 20, 1865, the day of the planned kidnapping, the president failed to appear at the spot where Booth and his six fellow conspirators lay in wait. Two weeks later, Richmond fell to Union forces. In April, with Confederate armies near collapse across the South, Booth hatched a desperate plan to save the Confederacy.



Learning that Lincoln was to attend Laura Keene’s acclaimed performance in Our American Cousin at Ford’s Theater on April 14, Booth plotted the simultaneous assassination of Lincoln, Vice President Andrew Johnson, and Secretary of State William H. Seward. By murdering the president and two of his possible successors, Booth and his conspirators hoped to throw the U.S. government into a paralyzing disarray.

On the evening of April 14, conspirator Lewis T. Powell burst into Secretary of State Seward’s home, seriously wounding him and three others, while George A. Atzerodt, assigned to Vice President Johnson, lost his nerve and fled.

Meanwhile, just after 10 p.m., Booth entered Lincoln’s private theater box unnoticed, and shot the president with a single bullet in the back of his head. Although Booth had broken his left leg jumping from Lincoln’s box, he succeeded in escaping Washington.

The president, mortally wounded, was carried to a cheap lodging house opposite Ford’s Theater. At about 7:22 the next morning, he died—the first U.S. president to be assassinated.

Booth was a well-regarded actor who was particularly loved in the South before the Civil War. During the war, he stayed in the North and became increasingly bitter when audiences weren’t as enamored of him as they were in Dixie. Along with friends Samuel Arnold, Michael O’Laughlin and John Surratt, Booth conspired to kidnap Lincoln and deliver him to the South.

On March 17, along with George Atzerodt, David Herold and Lewis Powell, the group met in a Washington bar to plot the abduction of the president three days later. However, when the president changed his plans, the scheme was scuttled. Shortly afterward, the South surrendered to the Union and the conspirators altered their plan. They decided to kill Lincoln, Vice President Andrew Johnson and Secretary of State William Seward on the same evening.

When April 14 came around, Atzerodt backed out of his part to kill Johnson. Upset, Booth went to drink at a saloon near Ford’s Theatre. At about 10 p.m. he walked into the theater and up to the president’s box. Lincoln’s guard, John Parker, was not there because he had gotten bored with the play and left his post to get a beer. Booth easily slipped in and shot the president in the back of the head. The president’s friend, Major Rathbone, attempted to grab Booth but was slashed by Booth’s knife. Booth injured his leg badly when he jumped to the stage to escape, but he managed to hobble outside to his horse.

Meanwhile, Lewis Powell forced his way into William Seward’s house and stabbed the secretary of state several times before fleeing. Booth rode to Virginia with David Herold and stopped at the home of Dr. Samuel Mudd, who placed splints on Booth’s leg. They hid in a barn on Richard Garrett’s farm as thousands of Union troops combed the area looking for them. The other conspirators were captured, except for John Surratt, who fled to Canada.

When the troops finally caught up with Booth and Herold on April 26, they gave them the option of surrendering before the barn was burned down. Herold decided to surrender, but Booth remained in the barn as it went up in flames. Booth was then shot and killed in the burning barn by Corporal Boston Corbett. On July 7, George Atzerodt, Lewis Powell, David Herold, and John Surratt’s mother, Mary, were hanged in Washington. The execution of Mary Surratt is believed by some to have been a miscarriage of justice. Although there was proof of Surratt’s involvement in the original abduction conspiracy, it is clear that her deeds were minor compared to those of the others who were executed.

Her son John was eventually tracked down in Egypt and brought back to trial, but he managed, with the help of clever lawyers, to win an acquittal.

​https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...a023eefe0cd3d2
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
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This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2023 12:23:56 PM
Quote:
1782 the Battle of the Saints leads the British fleet over the French in the West Indies, how does this effect the area, & N. America??


This was a very important battle that took place during the American Revolution. The dastardly French fleet had already assured victory for the rebels in the American Revolution by blocking the RN from its rescue mission at Yorktown.

I believe that the French agreed to support the North American rebels motivated partly by vengeance. It was the British after all who in their defence of their North American colonies had sent troops and the RN to defeat the French and to seize New France for Britain. In doing so they had fulfilled their obligation to their colonies to provide protection for them from the French and their First Nations' allies.

France and Britain were in competition to possess as many of the sugar islands in the Caribbean as possible and each coveted he islands of the other. With the defeat of the RN at the Battle of the Chesapeake (or Capes) which coincided with Yorktown, the French turned their attention to British possessions in the Caribbean. They had Jamaica in their sights.

The British were aware of the French designs and they dispatched Admiral Sir George Rodney and a fleet of 36 ships to block the French.

Admiral François Joseph Paul, the Comte de Grasse was the French commander and he was also the victor at the Battle of the Capes. He had 30 ships available.

The two fleets met off Dominica in the Battle of the Saintes. The British were victorious and their tactics in this battle were much better than those demonstrated in the Battle of the Chesapeake where they were a bit sloppy. The victory meant that the treaty that ended the revolution and granted the 13 colonies independence also allowed Britain to maintain its possessions in the Caribbean.

I looked this up and at the Battle of the Saintes both fleets were sailing parallel to one another when the wind changed and Admiral Rodney seized the chance to cross the French line of ships, firing at the ships on either side of him. The rest of his fleet did the same and scattered the French fleet. This victory assured British dominance in this area of North America and was a little pay back for the strategic victory on the Chesapeake, six months before. And they captured the Comte de Grasse to boot.

Picture of the two flag ships in combat. The larger ship in the picture is the French vessel, the Ville de Paris with 110 guns and to the starboard side of is Admiral Rodney in HMS Formidable with 90 guns. Rodney's was the smaller of the two.



Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2023 1:03:04 PM
George,

You said ,& I quote, "dastardly French fleet," well we certainly see where your alliances lie !?

Hey, The French helped us!
I say "viva la France"!
MD

BTW nice painting of the battle, you gotta love the beauty of those sailing ships!!!
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2023 4:12:18 PM
Quote:
George,

You said ,& I quote, "dastardly French fleet," well we certainly see where your alliances lie !?

Hey, The French helped us!
I say "viva la France"!
MD

BTW nice painting of the battle, you gotta love the beauty of those sailing ships!!!



MD, I have to keep reminding our southern neighbours that it was the colonists in the 13 colonies who were demanding protection from French and Indian allies predations. The colonial militias did fight but in the end it was the British regulars assisted by militia and the RN that destroyed the French at the Plains of Abraham. With that, the colonies no longer had to worry about the French, whom the colonists despised.

I think that the British must have been mightily upset when their countrymen rebelled and then hopped into bed with the French. The colonies accepted aid from the French beginning in 1775, only 15 years after British soldiers had fought and died to protect those same colonies. In the end, I believe that it was the presence of the French that won the war for the colonists.

In an alternative history discussion, would the colonists have won without the French? Perhaps someone wants to weigh in on that. It seems to me that they could not have won but I stand to be corrected.

Just my different perspective on the conflict, Dave.

BTW, I like that picture too. I wonder what it was like to serve on one of those old sailing vessels. Probably not great when you were a lowly seaman.

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2023 5:42:53 PM
George, the French had nothing to do with the American victory at Saratoga. How do you explain the British defeat?

Was it because of Kosciuszko and his brilliant use of the terrain?


Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
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This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2023 6:32:52 PM
George, when you say “I wonder what it was like to serve on one of those old sailing vessels. Probably not great when you were a lowly seaman.”, remember Sam Johnson’s comment: “Being in a ship is like being in jail, with the chance of being drowned.”! When men were starving on the land and yet still had to impressed or tricked to go to sea or sign up as RN crew, you must assume things were bad: food; clothing; training; authority; legal rights; messes; the list of nasties could go on and on. …

I’ve read that it was marginally better sailing on one of the East India Company ships (aka John’s ships, IIRC), particularly the larger vessels which could (often at the Captain’s discretion) carry passengers. By-and-large, the ships were well-built, heavier, swift but not agile (they carried precious cargo), and relatively well-paying. But even towards the end of oaken ships of sail (think HMS Warrior, in service in 1860 with sail and steam power, on display in Portsmouth) RN vessels were cramped. For everybody aboard except the Captain (and, if aboard, Admiral), there was no hope of voluntary quietude or privacy. And at all times, the ship’s function took precedence over any human concern. Even the Captain’s cabin would often contain either stern-chasers or relatively small cannon.

Lots more that could be said, obviously.

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 7:10:39 AM
At 7:22 a.m., Abraham Lincoln, the 16th president of the United States, dies from a bullet wound inflicted the night before by John Wilkes Booth, an actor and Confederate sympathizer. The president’s death came only six days after Confederate General Robert E. Lee surrendered his massive army at Appomattox Court House, effectively ending the American Civil War.

Booth, who remained in the North during the war despite his Confederate sympathies, initially plotted to capture President Lincoln and take him to Richmond, the Confederate capital. However, on March 20, 1865, the day of the planned kidnapping, the president failed to appear at the spot where Booth and his six fellow conspirators lay in wait. Two weeks later, Richmond fell to Union forces. In April, with Confederate armies near collapse across the South, Booth hatched a desperate plan to save the Confederacy.

Learning that Lincoln was to attend Laura Keene’s acclaimed performance in Our American Cousin at Ford’s Theater on April 14, Booth plotted the simultaneous assassination of Lincoln, Vice President Andrew Johnson, and Secretary of State William H. Seward. By murdering the president and two of his possible successors, Booth and his conspirators hoped to throw the U.S. government into a paralyzing disarray.

On the evening of April 14, conspirator Lewis T. Powell burst into Secretary of State Seward’s home, seriously wounding him and three others, while George A. Atzerodt, assigned to Vice President Johnson, lost his nerve and fled. Meanwhile, just after 10 p.m., Booth entered Lincoln’s private box unnoticed and shot the president with a single bullet in the back of his head. Slashing an army officer who rushed at him, Booth jumped to the stage and shouted “Sic semper tyrannis! [Thus always to tyrants]–the South is avenged!” Although Booth had broken his left leg jumping from Lincoln’s box, he succeeded in escaping Washington.

The president, mortally wounded, was carried to a cheap lodging house opposite Ford’s Theater. An hour after dawn the next morning, Abraham Lincoln died, becoming the first president to be assassinated. His body was taken to the White House, where it lay until April 18, at which point it was carried to the Capitol rotunda to lay in state on a catafalque. On April 21, Lincoln’s body was taken to the railroad station and boarded on a train that conveyed it to Springfield, Illinois, his home before becoming president. Tens of thousands of Americans lined the train’s railroad route and paid their respects to their fallen leader during the train’s solemn progression through the North. Lincoln was buried on May 4, 1865, at Oak Ridge Cemetery, near Springfield.

Booth, pursued by the army and security forces, was finally cornered in a barn near Bowling Green, Virginia, and died from a bullet wound as the barn was burned to the ground. Of the eight other persons eventually charged with the conspiracy, four were hanged.​


President Lincoln dies
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/president-lincoln-dies?cmpid=email-hist-tdih-2023-0415-04152023&om_rid=21539c69abde70e4e3fda02b9d14d1819c3badeaf5a2bcab48a023eefe0cd3d2
At 7:22 a.m., Abraham Lincoln, the 16th president of the United States, dies from a bullet wound inflicted the night before by John Wilkes Booth, an actor and Confederate sympathizer. The president’s death came only six days after Confederate General Robert E. Lee surrendered his massive army at Appomattox Court House, effectively ending the American […]
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 7:53:33 AM
Gentlemen, gentlemen!

The big events from yesterday April 14, was the unsinkable ship RMS Titanic hits an ice berg & sinks less than 3 hours later! Lately there have been new theories on what happened to contribute to this catastrophe!?

And of course John Wilkes Booth assassinates President Abraham Lincoln an event that greatly effected America, he died today 4-15, some say a surgeon's probe actually killed him? If left alone he might have lived?? Comments on the tragedy, & its aftermath! anyone??

Checking other history on 4-15 in world history, listed below, but it is tragic endings for both of these above events!! Any other comments??

1941 200 Luftwaffe Bombers kill over 1000 people in Belfast N. Ireland! Why did they attack the Irish?? Anyone?

1942 King George VI awards the George Cross to all of the people on the Island of Malta! Why? & what is the George Cross? Anyone??

1943 A Allied Bombing mission misses a German Automobile Factory, & hits the Belgium city of Mortsel killing almost 1,000 innocent civilians! How could this miscue of a tragedy happen?? Anyone??

1955 McDonald's Restaurant is founded by Ray Kroc in Des Plaines, Illinois! How many are there today, & in how many countries??

1989 almost 100 soccer fans are killed in Hillsborough Stadium, England! How could this happen at a peaceful sporting event? What is the most dangerous event a fan could attend?? Comments??

Any new comments or topics to discuss??
Cheers,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 8:22:48 AM
Quote:
George, the French had nothing to do with the American victory at Saratoga.


Or the French had a great deal to do with it. French operatives met with Ben Franklin at the second continental congress to arrange for millions of dollars in funding that not only provided war materiel to the colonists but eventually access to hard currency. And in an act that the British would regard as traitorous, the colonists sent Franklin and Deane to France to finalize financial aid with a shell company funded by France and Spain.

Quote:
Estimates suggest that at the colonists’ October 1777 victory at Saratoga, a turning point in the war, 90 percent of all American troops carried French arms, and they were completely dependent on French gunpowder.


And I lifted the quote from this esteemed history site that appears every morning on this forum. Always interesting to learn of the economic side of war making.

[Read More]

Saratoga was most important I think because it convinced the French that they would be more open about their support. After 1778 the shell company that supported the rebellion was shelved as the French government openly supported the rebellion.

George



NYGiant
home  USA
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 9:47:44 AM
Quote:
Quote:
George, the French had nothing to do with the American victory at Saratoga.


Or the French had a great deal to do with it. French operatives met with Ben Franklin at the second continental congress to arrange for millions of dollars in funding that not only provided war materiel to the colonists but eventually access to hard currency. And in an act that the British would regard as traitorous, the colonists sent Franklin and Deane to France to finalize financial aid with a shell company funded by France and Spain.

Quote:
Estimates suggest that at the colonists’ October 1777 victory at Saratoga, a turning point in the war, 90 percent of all American troops carried French arms, and they were completely dependent on French gunpowder.


And I lifted the quote from this esteemed history site that appears every morning on this forum. Always interesting to learn of the economic side of war making.

[Read More]

Saratoga was most important I think because it convinced the French that they would be more open about their support. After 1778 the shell company that supported the rebellion was shelved as the French government openly supported the rebellion.

George






George,

Please tell me what French regiments fought at Saratoga. I am aware of the British units that surrendered, and the American Army regiments who were victorious , but can't find any French regiments.

Did French regiments carry those muskets?
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 9:48:22 AM
Quote:
Quote:
George, the French had nothing to do with the American victory at Saratoga.


Or the French had a great deal to do with it. French operatives met with Ben Franklin at the second continental congress to arrange for millions of dollars in funding that not only provided war materiel to the colonists but eventually access to hard currency. And in an act that the British would regard as traitorous, the colonists sent Franklin and Deane to France to finalize financial aid with a shell company funded by France and Spain.

Quote:
Estimates suggest that at the colonists’ October 1777 victory at Saratoga, a turning point in the war, 90 percent of all American troops carried French arms, and they were completely dependent on French gunpowder.


And I lifted the quote from this esteemed history site that appears every morning on this forum. Always interesting to learn of the economic side of war making.

[Read More]

Saratoga was most important I think because it convinced the French that they would be more open about their support. After 1778 the shell company that supported the rebellion was shelved as the French government openly supported the rebellion.

George






George,

Please tell me what French regiments fought at Saratoga. I am aware of the British units that surrendered, and the American Army regiments who were victorious , but can't find any French regiments.

Did French regiments carry those muskets?

And Morgan's riflemen...they used French rifles?
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 9:56:40 AM
NY it could be a rather informative discussion if we were to assess just how impactful the participation from the French was to winning this war but I sense that you aren't really interested in that aspect of the revolution.

Fortunately many of your own historians are willing to discuss this topic at length. Is there a consensus that without the French, this war could not have been won by the rebels? That leads me to speculate as to what the British were going to do with a beaten but disgruntled populace of 2.5 million living in an incredibly large and densely treed land mass. Britain could have won the war and lost the peace.

Even a discussion of Saratoga in isolation would reveal the mistakes that the British made even at the highest levels that led to a lack of co-ordination in command of the three armies involved. But and again, you seen to lack interest in discussions in any depth as it interferes with flag waving.

NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 12:22:44 PM
George,

I try to not speculate. No one is saying that the French did not aid the American cause. They did1

All I am saying is that there was an American colonist behind those muskets who was doing the actual fighting and dying.

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 1:13:40 PM
Quote:
George,

I try to not speculate. No one is saying that the French did not aid the American cause. They did1

All I am saying is that there was an American colonist behind those muskets who was doing the actual fighting and dying.




This was the question that I posed in my initial post on the topic:

Quote:
In an alternative history discussion, would the colonists have won without the French?


You chose not to participate in that discussion because implicit in my statement is the suggestion that French support was critical to that victory whether they were present in numbers or not. That of course bristled the hairs on the back of your neck because it doesn't comport to the narrative, a somewhat mythological narrative, surrounding this conflict that the colonists won their independence on their own.

So you responded with a reference to the Battle of Saratoga. Why? Did that indicate to you that the French were not important to the overall victory? I think that it was just a knee-jerk response because the mere suggestion that foreign aid was necessary to victory upsets your view of the genesis of your nation. Why I don't know? The French aid to the rebels is historical fact. There is nothing wrong with discussing just how much the French influenced the outcome. I believe that it was significant as the French and the British were competitors and anything that France could do to annoy and reduce the power of Britain was appealing to them.

BTW there were many French politicians who wanted nothing to do with the American revolution. They saw it as a money pit and financial and human resources provided to the conflict damaged the French economy greatly.

I presume that you are aware of the critical gunpowder supply problem in the colonies due to a lack of saltpetre. One of the colonies sent a raiding party to Bermuda (I think) and managed to steal barrels of British gunpowder from a facility there. The colonists were looking for gunpowder everywhere because they could not produce enough of it for themselves.

It was the French that came to the rescue on the gunpowder front. And it was French gunpowder at Saratoga that the rebels carried, so I have read. So again, without the French right from 1775, could the rebels have defeated the British?

Saratoga is an interesting battle. It was impressive that colonists poured into the theatre by the thousands to thwart Burgoyne. It is also perplexing that Clinton did not come to the aid of Burgoyne, choosing to take a couple of forts and then to return to his base of operations. It is perplexing that the high command in Britain did not authorize the three British armies to co-ordinate their attack despite being appraised of the details of the plan. The objectives of the attack seemed sensible and success would have partitioned the New England states off from the rest of the colonies.

Lots of things to discuss other than the box score, NY






NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 2:06:30 PM
I chose not to participate because I don't deal in alternative history, alternative facts,...basically anything alternative.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 2:23:59 PM
Quote:
I chose not to participate because I don't deal in alternative history, alternative facts,...basically anything alternative.


I offered a lot more than that as discussion points, NY.

I refer you once again to my original question, could the rebels have won without the participation of the French. Address that.

It is historical record that the French provided gunpowder, arms, soldiers and sailors to this conflict. Without them, what is the likelihood that the rebellion would have been suppressed?
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 2:32:19 PM
I deal in hard facts, not alternative facts.

George
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 3:02:39 PM
Quote:
I deal in hard facts, not alternative facts.



Cowardly approach abetted by obfuscation and misdirection.

Fact: the rebellion was successful

Fact: the French provided hard cash, gunpowder, muskets, soldiers and a Navy to the rebel cause.

The question posed was whether the rebels could have won without the aid and services of the French. It is a legitimate question that has been debated by historians.
NYGiant
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4/15/2023 3:31:05 PM
Hardly cowardly.

Why speculate on things that never happened? Here is the US, we have enough people who specialize in alternative facts. The facts are, the French did aid the American colonists and we did fight for and win our Independence.

DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 3:48:39 PM
Quote:
The question posed was whether the rebels could have won without the aid and services of the French. It is a legitimate question that has been debated by historians.


Legitimate indeed and nothing wrong with what-if scenarios and discussion of. Those who wish not to partake fine and good, those who do, fine and good.

Would the American colonists have won the war had not France actively engaged in providing weapons, munitions, and eventually troops and ships? Hard to imagine so initially. The best outcome for the Americans was to make the war an ongoing, attritional affair. If I recall correctly, while the Brits had plenty of forces to continue fighting after Yorktowns surrender, having allied French forces fighting alongside the colonists, the loss of confidence in London public and Parliament provided an easy way out for the Brits.

I suppose visioning a potential future of lost trade with the America's could have factored in as well more so now since France was hands-on involved.

Dan
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George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 3:56:29 PM
Quote:
Hardly cowardly.

Why speculate on things that never happened? Here is the US, we have enough people who specialize in alternative facts. The facts are, the French did aid the American colonists and we did fight for and win our Independence.



Quelle surprise.

Try it this way then. Assess the significance and extent of the involvement of the French government and the French forces in the progress and the result of the Revolutionary War. There you go, NY. Just your average essay type question. Perfectly legitimate I think and important to understanding the conduct of the war and indeed, the final result.

I think that your rather shallow and narrow approach has been exposed. I understand though. It is quite difficult to admit that the war was not won simply by citizens emboldened by righteous indignation and the writings of Rousseau. Those damned French, there they are again.

Note that I have never disparaged the efforts of the citizen soldiers. They showed great resilience at places like Valley Forge when they could have just thrown in the towel. But there are other significant factors at play in this historical event.
NYGiant
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 4:22:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Hardly cowardly.

Why speculate on things that never happened? Here is the US, we have enough people who specialize in alternative facts. The facts are, the French did aid the American colonists and we did fight for and win our Independence.



Quelle surprise.

Try it this way then. Assess the significance and extent of the involvement of the French government and the French forces in the progress and the result of the Revolutionary War. There you go, NY. Just your average essay type question. Perfectly legitimate I think and important to understanding the conduct of the war and indeed, the final result.

I think that your rather shallow and narrow approach has been exposed. I understand though. It is quite difficult to admit that the war was not won simply by citizens emboldened by righteous indignation and the writings of Rousseau. Those damned French, there they are again.
Note that I have never disparaged the efforts of the citizen soldiers. They showed great resilience at places like Valley Forge when they could have just thrown in the towel. But there are other significant factors at play in this historical event.


That's an essay question where the FACTS ARE KNOWN.

You are proposing eliminating the facts and are discussing a hypothetical, where there was no French involvement.

I deal with facts. Evidently, you deal in whimsy. I understand though.
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 5:58:04 PM
Did Howes column wandering off to Pennsylvania have any impact there?
Seems the advantages certainly lay with the Colonials in this particular series of battles and the difficult terrain the British had to navigate.
vpatrick
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 6:29:18 PM
Without the French the US would not have won the Revolution, Yorktown would not have happened. If the Confederates got UK and French support they may have won as well. Ukrainians would be under Russian control without the west they do the fighting but they need Himars whats the problem? Its easy to see!

I thank you NY you have united folks in agreement that used to be at each others throats on this site.

vpatrick
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nuts
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
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This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2023 7:53:26 PM
Quote:
1941 200 Luftwaffe Bombers kill over 1000 people in Belfast N. Ireland! Why did they attack the Irish?? Anyone?

They didn’t! They attacked that area of Ireland firmly loyal to and part of Great Britain. Belfast played a major role in the Battle of the Atlantic, having a major RN base which included major communications facilities. In WW2 my late partner-in-crime’s father (Edwin (Ted) Walker) served aboard HMS Caroline, headquarters for RN Belfast Naval Base moored in Belfast Harbour.

HMS Caroline was, I believe, decommissioned in 2011, having been active in the RN since WW1. She was the second-longest serving RN warship. Only HMS Victory – Nelson’s flagship – has served longer. And I understand that Caroline has recently re-opened as a restored RN museum. In – where else? – Belfast Harbour.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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