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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/21/2023 8:02:55 AM


Remember that we don't elect our PM directly. The leader of the party that wins the most seats becomes the new PM. And with four major parties vying for the top spot, that often means means that the winning party may not have received 50% plus of the votes.

In the last federal election in 2021:

Liberals under Trudeau took 160 seats and had 32.6% of the popular vote.

Conservatives under Erin O'Toole took 119 seats but had 33.7% of the popular vote. That was higher than the Liberals as you can see but the Cons didn't take nearly as many ridings.

So I think that I am trying to say that under our system, the result of the election doesn't always indicate the popularity of the winning party leader!

Cheers,
George




Hi George,

Is this like the US's Electoral college, I hope not, that's a system that gets minority parties in power, sometimes unfairly so!? Would you prefer just a general vote??

What say you?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/21/2023 1:02:00 PM
4-19 in history, discussions anyone???

1775 the American Revolution begins with the battle of Lexington! The beginning of a small group of freedom loving Patriots defeating the most powerful military on Earth! What say you??

1861 Abraham Lincolns orders a blockade of the Confederacy! How effective was it?? Anyone?

1927 Communists & Nationalists fight it out in China! Who will ultimately win??

1938 Gen. Franco, declares victory in the Spanish Civil War! Who did the Nazis support, & why??

4-20,

1770 Capt. James Cook arrives in New South Wales, was he Britains top explorer? What say you??

1920 Tornados kill 219 people in Alabama, & Mississippi, It seems that we are getting more & worse Tornados in recent years!? Why? Anyone?? How about more stroms in your areas, what say you is weather more volatile??

1968 Pierre Trudeau swore in as Canada's Prime Minister, # 15, was he a good one? Check out Georges recent posts on this PM on previous page!!!!!!!!

Anyone have any other events for 4-20?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/21/2023 1:32:36 PM
Quote:


Hi George,

Is this like the US's Electoral college, I hope not, that's a system that gets minority parties in power, sometimes unfairly so!? Would you prefer just a general vote??

What say you?
MD


No, it is really nothing like your electoral college, MD. That institution is particular to the way that the US chooses to elect its President.

But the Westminster system of government that we adopted is philosophically different from the system that you set up. The head of state is the monarch. The Prime Minister is the head of government.

I look at the title and it tells us that the PM is the first of many ministers in the cabinet of the government. The PM is replaceable and that could happen without even calling an election though it rarely does. A party could choose to dump its leader in mid-stream though that doesn't often happen. I believe that it did happen in Australia not too far back.

We actually elect a party with its platform to conduct the affairs of government. In a sense, the PM as leader of the party comes with the package. But it would be naive to say that we don't pay attention to whom the leader of a party is. That knowledge does impact voter tendencies.

But I have voted for a person in my riding who represents the party and platform that I like, despite not being enamoured of the leader of the party.

Also, minority governments are part and parcel of the Westminster system. It simply means that the government that gained the most seats in the election failed to secure more than half of the available seats in the nation.

That is the situation in which we find ourselves today. The Liberals with Trudeau at the helm secured the greatest number of seats of any party but fewer than 50%.

That could trigger another election but the Westminster system historically asks Parliament to find a way to govern. And that is possible so long as the PM and his party have the confidence of the house. A vote of no confidence could trigger an election.

With the last election over, the NDP(New Democratic Party) and its leader Jagmeet Singh secured some promises from the Liberals to pursue legislation that concerned the NDP. Trudeau must have kept his promises because with the support of the NDP in the House of Commons, the Liberals have maintained their position as head of government. Note that this is not a coalition government. The NDP does not tell the Liberals how to govern. However, the Liberals are working with the NDP on legislation that both can support.

At any time that the NDP is dissatisfied with the arrangement, it could pull the plug and vote against the government on a bill and that could trigger a vote of No confidence if the subject matter is implicitly a confidence bill. For example, motions on the floor that deal with financial supply are confidence motions implicitly.

Or if the PM, Trudeau in this case feels that the people of the country are happier with him and his party, he could call an election or rather ask the Governor General to call an election,

The Confidence Convention is an important part of Westminster Parliaments. As a convention, it isn't written down anywhere but the convention keeps the government on its toes.

But only in a minority situation, of course. In a majority situation, it is highly unlikely that members of a party would ever vote against their own government on a confidence matter. They want to stay in power, don't they?

I think that I may have been as clear as mud here.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/21/2023 1:57:11 PM
On April 21, 1918, Baron Manfred von Richtofen, the "Red Baron" was shot down. Credit for kill was given to Canadian Captain Roy Brown who noticed that a rookie pilot in his squadron, Wilfred "Wop" May, was being chased by the Red Baron.

There has been much controversy over the decision to accredit Brown and Australian soldiers on the ground claim that it was they that shot the plane down.

Roy Brown was a man who suffered greatly because of the war. He was not inclined to brag or make claims to success that were unsupported. But he was adamant that he fired a burst into the Red Baron's plane that brought him down. Brown was also much distressed by the death of this man and felt very badly about it.

"Wop" May survived the war and went on to become a famous bush pilot who, along with others like him, were instrumental in opening Canada's north.

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/21/2023 3:27:47 PM
Quote:
4-21


1945: The Russian Eighth Guards Army attacked the suburbs of Berlin. German forces counter-attacked but could not stop Soviet encirclement. Hitler had one week to live


Nine days to live : Hitler chose suicide on 30 April.

That Russian drive on Berlin was pressed home at monstrous cost : 81,116 killed or missing, 280,251 wounded ; a total of 361,367 casualties for the Soviets in the 23 days between 16 April and 8 May 1945. Who would venture a guess as to what the German deaths totalled, especially taking into account the civilian population ? Apart from the deaths, there was rape on an epic scale. Horrible to contemplate, even more so in view of what we're seeing in media today.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/21/2023 4:06:54 PM
4-21

1926: HM Queen Elizabeth was born in London. Oddly, though her official birthday is celebrated to some extent, her actual birthday is a low-key event (for a queen!).

1941: Greece, after 3 weeks’ war with Germany, submitted to armistice terms dictated by Germany

1942 I quote Robert Goralski,, World War II Almanac, 1931-1945, p. 214: ‘Spain pledged a million men if necessary to help defeat the Soviet Union. Spanish Foreign Minister Rámon Serrano Sùner said Madrid hoped the Axis powers would win the war because “a victory for the Allies would be tantamount to a victory for Bolshevism.”’ As far as I know, such numbers were never close to being reached, but the pledge suggests Falangist Spain’s detestation of socialism. I met a member of the Blue Division (which fought with the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front) when I was in Spain in 1960. It was 15 years after the end of the war, but Franco was still very much in power.

1945: The Russian Eighth Guards Army attacked the suburbs of Berlin. German forces counter-attacked but could not stop Soviet encirclement. Hitler had one week to live. Thanks Phil on your reply, written above!!

& thanks, BG for posting these events!!

Also Thanks George, for clearing up how Canada's PM works, A bit more complicated than I thought!? ☺

There's always enough thanks to go around!?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/21/2023 10:57:01 PM
Quote:
1942 I quote Robert Goralski,, World War II Almanac, 1931-1945, p. 214: ‘Spain pledged a million men if necessary to help defeat the Soviet Union. Spanish Foreign Minister Rámon Serrano Sùner said Madrid hoped the Axis powers would win the war because “a victory for the Allies would be tantamount to a victory for Bolshevism.”’ As far as I know, such numbers were never close to being reached, but the pledge suggests Falangist Spain’s detestation of socialism. I met a member of the Blue Division (which fought with the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front) when I was in Spain in 1960. It was 15 years after the end of the war, but Franco was still very much in power.

MD, let it be noted: you drew this from elsewhere on MHO, probably a post for this date that was made in a different year. The Goralski comment, held between the quotation marks, is accurate. It is also an important reflection of the complex relationship between Spain and the Axis powers. The rest of the comment is not Gorolski’s, and does not have the same provenance to support it.

The Spanish Civil War was a battle between an as-far-as-I-know legally elected Socialist government (serving under the “Republicans” cause) and a conservative, royalist, pro-Church minority who was backed by the military, which was prepared to overlook its function of the government in favour or re-establishing royalist and church-related values.

IIUC, during the pre-Civil War period, the Republicans acted violently against traditional Spanish social and political structure. This included rejecting the continuation of the monarchy and the powers held by an antique and often insupportable aristocracy out of touch with modern economics or social theory. More, the Republicans worked to obliterate what was felt to be the oppressive authority of the Catholic Church and the excess influence allowed to Church Orders (nuns, brothers, etc.). Without getting into detail, many Socialist actions were crude, violent, nasty and vicious.

When the Royalists and large sections of the Spanish Army rose against their Socialist government, it was clearly in the interests of both Italy and Germany to see the defeat of an elected Socialist government. To that end, both Italy and Germany offered assistance, at first in transportation (moving troops from Africa to Spain is, after all, transportation). IIUC, Italy was negotiating fees for transportation when Germany stepped in and provided sufficient Ju-52/3s to lift Franco’s troops from offshore locations to Spain.

From that point, Spain’s Civil War was flooded by external forces. Germany provided a/c and pilots to support Loyalist efforts, leaving a destroyed village, a boasting Luftwaffe (though under the name of the Kondor Legion, IIRC) and a large, powerful and largely un-understandable painting.

The Spanish Civil War ended (was this a joke?) on 1 April 1939. To whatever level, both Germany and Italy could feel they had supported Spanish loyalists in defeating the Republicans. So when the larger European war moved West on 10 May 1940, German – the sole Axis belligerent – may have been justified in assuming Spain would provide more than moral support for German (and, soon, German/Italian or Axis)war effort.

Hitler and Franco met. Hitler was looking for Spanish commitment against Gibraltar, to the potential point of placing the Rock under siege. Also on Germany’s “to do” list; Spanish commitment to full membership in the Axis.

Amazingly, Franco said “no”. He made it clear that he would fight his enemies on his grounds for his reasons. As Goralski suggests, Franco was prepared to fight Royalist Spain’s enemies The main enemy was Socialism, Bolshevism, Communism. While Germany faced Bolsheviks, Spain would fight against a common enemy. But it seems clear that Spain did not want to become a satellite of German and Italy.

I have never been a Falangist. Despite the vicious excesses of the Republicans, I find little sympathy with the Falangist cause during the Civil War. When I was old enough to travel to Spain in 1960, Franco was still in power. I found much of the social and political force in Spain threatening and difficult to deal with. But I was impresses (in 1960) that Spain had had the balls to maintain it’s own values, and to stand clear of what were at the time some relatively minor requests from a former ally.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 9:22:06 AM
4-23 in World History, surely some things to discuss! Anyone??

1348 the 1st English order of Knighthood is founded!? Just what does it take to be Knighted?? Anyone?

1500 explorer Cabral claims Brazil for Portugal! What did the Pope have to say about this?? Comments anyone?

1661 Charles II is Crowned King, returning the Monarchy to Britain with reduced powers!? What's that all.about??

1865 Union Cavalry continue mop up exercises in Alabama & N. Carolina! Is the CW really over?? What say you? Perhaps Bri., can elaborate it's significance!??

1945 as Bri. said Soviets fight their way into Berlin! What say you about what happened to Hitler??

1969 Sirhan Sirhan, is sentenced to death for assassination of Robert Kennedy! 1968 was a bad year for good leaders, sad losses!? Comments??

Oops forgot 4-22, any one have any events, missed??

Oh I know today is Earth Day! A day to consider helping the healthiness of our Planet!? What say you how bad have we hurt the Earth so far?? Anyone??

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 1:02:48 PM
Thirty years ago this day a black teenager by the name of Stephen Lawrence was murdered by white youngsters in South East London in an atrocious and racially motivated attack.

The subsequent investigation revealed that the Police failed to address this properly, and that the Police force was itself “ institutionally racist”. We’re still dealing with the fallout.

In 1915 the Germans unleashed chlorine gas for the first time on the Western Front, in the Ypres Salient, causing havoc and routing a French territorial division.

The gap was plugged by a Canadian division, which held ground and counter attacked, suffering five or six thousand casualties in the process.

Without gas masks, the soldiers resorted to pissing on their handkerchiefs as a means of protection, and the following weeks witnessed fighting of the most intense and desperate kind.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 2:13:16 PM
Quote:
Thirty years ago this day a black teenager by the name of Stephen Lawrence was murdered by white youngsters in South East London in an atrocious and racially motivated attack.

The subsequent investigation revealed that the Police failed to address this properly, and that the Police force was itself “ institutionally racist”. We’re still dealing with the fallout.

In 1915 the Germans unleashed chlorine gas for the first time on the Western Front, in the Ypres Salient, causing havoc and routing a French territorial division.

The gap was plugged by a Canadian division, which held ground and counter attacked, suffering five or six thousand casualties in the process.

Without gas masks, the soldiers resorted to pissing on their handkerchiefs as a means of protection, and the following weeks witnessed fighting of the most intense and desperate kind.

Regards, Phil


Thanks Phil. I think it is important to add that some of the French colonials and territorials did regroup when they encountered the Canadians and joined them in trying to stop the advance.

Ypres Salient on morning of April 21, 1915



Quote:
In the far distance we saw a cloud rise as though from the earth. It was a greeny-red color, and increased in volume as it rolled forward. It was like a mist rising, and yet it hugged the ground, rose five or six feet, and penetrated to every crevice and dip in the ground. We could not tell what it was. Suddenly from out the mist we men in reserves saw movement. Coming towards us, running as though Hell as it really was had been let loose behind them, were the black troops from Northern Africa. Poor devils, I do not blame them. It was enough to make any man run. (Private Harold Peat, Canadian soldier)


Quote:

The line trembled from one end to the other, as the Algerian troops immediately on our left, jumped out of their trenches, falling as they ran. The whole thing seemed absolutely incomprehensible until I got a whiff of the gas. They ran like men possessed, gasping, choking, blinded and dropping with suffocation. They could hardly be blamed... The buttons on our uniforms were tinged yellow and green from the gas, so virulent was the poison. (Private Reginald Grant)


Second Ypres began on April 22 and would continue until May 25 in several phases. My data says that 70,000 allied soldiers were killed, wounded or missing in that month long battle. Phil, I defer to you on these numbers.

This first phase was the Battle of Gravenstafel Ridge when the allies were surprised by the gas attack. Once the line was plugged, the Canadians were ordered to make an immediate counter attack on Bois-de-Cuisineres (the kitcheners' wood) where artillery from the British 2nd London Heavy battery with 4.7 inch guns were stationed.

The Canadians were so raw. Two battalions lined up in a formation that one analyst has stated had not been seen since the War of 1812. Ordered to advance at midnight, they crashed into the Germans after running through a hail of MG fire. A melee ensued in the wood and the Canadians pushed the Germans out of the wood. Hand to hand combat and short distance rifle fire took place. Bayonets were used. Very few German prisoners were taken according to the Canadians and I don't know what to infer from that.

The Canadians found the bodies of men of the 2nd London Heavy Battery mixed among German bodies amongst the British guns. It was evident that the British boys put up a hell of a fight in attempt to save their guns.

Note as well that Algerian troops attacked to the right of the Canadians hoping to regain the positions that they held at the time of the gas attack. But on the left of the Canadians there was supposed to be an attack by the French and it did not materialize. That accounted for the MG fire that the Canadians took in their run toward the Bois-de-Cuisineres.

By 2:30 AM, the CDN commander of the 16th battalion ordered a withdrawal to the south end of the wood because he had insufficient numbers left to hold the wood but the Germans had been stopped. In the morning of the 816 men who had attacked at midnight only 193 were still on their feet. The 16th was down to 268 all ranks.

After the war, Marshall Foch said that "the greatest act of the war" had been the attack by the CDN 16th and 10th battalions. Quite high praise for raw soldiers who really did not know what they were doing.

The Canadians tried to consolidate and the defensive position was holding until April 24 when the Germans released another gas attack. This phase of the battle was called the Battle of St. Julien and the Canadians fought hard but were pushed back. Together with the British troops of the 27th division sent forward they limited German gains and reclaimed ground lost. St. Julien is another part of the story and not a part of this post.

Sorry Phil, but this battle was significant and terrible for the Canadians. Your post got me going a bit.

Canadians soldiers of WWII visiting the monument commemorating the actions of the Canadians at St. Julien.




Ypres was certainly a killing ground throughout the war.

Video with historian Andy Robertshaw. Note his comment in reference to allied casualties in the Ypres Salient

[Read More]

Cheers,




Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 3:06:47 PM
An awful ordeal for those Canadians, George ; a nightmare for any soldiers….. but to be pushed forward with little or no preparation into a crisis like that is an incredible thing to expect and one has to wonder what attributes those men had that made them able and willing to endure such a foul undertaking.

The Germans enjoyed significant tactical advantages : apart from the obvious shock of the poison gas, they possessed the upper hand in the deployment of artillery, sweeping the Allied positions with pulverising firepower and catching the hastily mounted counter attacks in a hail of high explosive, shrapnel and lethal machine gunfire.

The British, Canadian and Indian troops suffered sixty thousand casualties in all, roughly ten percent of them Canadian.

There were thousands of French casualties too.

The Germans lost about thirty five thousand, reflecting their superiority in firepower, the surprise gained by the gas, and the prodigal use of flesh and blood by the Allies , who paid an exorbitant price in their determination to retain ground that might have been better relinquished.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 3:10:36 PM
Phil, one wonders why the advancing Germans were somewhat hesitant in the earliest moments of the attack. Were they shocked at the carnage wrought by the gas?



Photos in contrast, 1912 and 1915. Ypres





George

vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2522
Joined: 2020
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 5:16:15 PM
Can you imagine the work it took and the planning to build those structures without modern equipment and armies just came in there and just blasted them to bits. Why are humans not wired to help each other we are wired to fight each other. We are a flawed species . Maybe the Russians are right we all need to be Nuked.

vpatrick
----------------------------------
nuts
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 5:48:09 PM
Quote:
Phil, one wonders why the advancing Germans were somewhat hesitant in the earliest moments of the attack. Were they shocked at the carnage wrought by the gas?



Photos in contrast, 1912 and 1915. Ypres





George



That question challenges, doesn’t it, George ?

There was something tentative in this German attack.

My belief is that it was deliberately confined to a localised and largely experimental effort. The experimental nature was obviously exemplified by the use of that gas. The localised aspect is perhaps best explained by a German attempt to divert and distract the Entente from their really big onslaught that they were about to unleash on the Russians. Husbandry of manpower and deployment of surprising and deadly technology combined to great effect in this Second Battle of Ypres, in so far as the Allies suffered disproportionate casualties dancing to the Germans’ tune. I reckon the gas cylinders that the Germans massed were a deterrent to keeping large numbers of troops close by to exploit their advantage, with the prospect of enemy shells smashing up those fiendish devices and the poison killing their own men.
Given their successful chlorine surprise, their massive artillery superiority, their advantage in terrain, it was enough for the Germans to let the British and Canadians bleed themselves white in counter attacks that were prodigal and bound to fail.

The Germans also had evil memories of their own failure to take Ypres in the previous autumn, when the British and Franco-Belgian defenders exacted a terrible toll from the Kaiser’s ardent student soldiers.

That might account for their reluctance to try another all out onslaught.

That, and the very fierce resistance that the Allies - the Canadians especially - exhibited in the most horrific circumstances , deterred the Germans from committing to a more grand offensive.

There were also thirty five thousand German casualties to take into account : even if the exchange rate favoured Germany, that was an unwelcome feature for a local affair prior to an all out strategic effort being launched against the enemy in the East.


Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 6:06:27 PM
At Bolimow, where gas was first used, the wind suddenly changed and the gas started being blown back at the Germans.Could be they wanted to make sure that didn´t happen again.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 6:29:37 PM
George,

At the end of that link Andrew Robert-Shaw alluded to four hundred thousand Allied casualties in the Ypres Salient throughout the war. Maybe he’s confining the remit to just a sector within that salient : the British Empire alone suffered well over half a million casualties there 1914-18.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 9:14:20 PM
Quote:
Can you imagine the work it took and the planning to build those structures without modern equipment and armies just came in there and just blasted them to bits. Why are humans not wired to help each other we are wired to fight each other. We are a flawed species . Maybe the Russians are right we all need to be Nuked.

vpatrick


The damage to Belgium was extensive. The university in the town of Leuven was deliberately torched with over 230,000 books destroyed. And then there were the atrocities against civilians.
We often read of criticism of the Treaty of Versailles but the damage done to Belgium and to a good part of France was terrible.

Vin, until we can abolish war I think that it will be ever so.

Cheers,

George
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2522
Joined: 2020
This day in World History! Continued
4/22/2023 9:31:50 PM
This day in World History! Continued
4/23/2023 7:26:41 AM
4-23 in World History,

1348 the 1st English order of Knighthood is founded!? Just what does it take to be Knighted?? Anyone?

1500 explorer Cabral claims Brazil for Portugal! What did the Pope have to say about this?? Comments anyone?

1661 Charles II is Crowned King, returning the Monarchy to Britain with reduced powers!? What's that all.about??

1865 Union Cavalry continue mop up exercises in Alabama & N. Carolina! Is the CW really over?? What say you? Perhaps someone can elaborate it's significance!??

1945 Soviets fight their way into Berlin! What say you about what happened to Hitler in the end, lots of theories??

1969 Sirhan Sirhan, is sentenced to death for assassination of Robert Kennedy! 1968 was a bad year for good leaders, sad losses!? Comments?

Regards,
MD


BTW great discussion on the horrific WWI battle of Ypres Salient, please continue!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/23/2023 8:24:18 AM
Thanks Phil and Trevor for the explaining why the Germans may have hesitated to press their advantage on day one of the 2nd Ypres attack.

Phil, how would a diversionary attack at Ypres furthered the attack against the Russians? Were the Germans hoping for an element of surprise in the attack on Russia as well?

The Imperial War Museum site suggests that the Germans had diverted troops from the western front to the Russian front prior to the attack at the Ypres salient. Were the allies and the Russians unaware of these troop movements?

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/23/2023 2:34:51 PM
George,

The interpretation that I choose in regard to Second Ypres is that the Germans sought to disrupt the Entente plans to support the Russians.

The Franco British forces on the Western Front were, I suspect, fully aware that a mighty German storm was imminent in the East.

With this in mind, they were intent on launching very big attacks in Artois and Champagne, which were indeed pressed home on the grand scale, making May 1915 one of the bloodiest months

Must stop and return : in hospital with prostate and bladder problems.

Will come back and develop this speculative argument.

Forgive that graphic and self pitying digression : I’m having a horrible ordeal and the distraction of this forum and the pleasure I get from discussions like this one with you keeps morale intact.

As I was saying, the Entente armies in the West were going to intervene by attacking in support of the hard pressed Russians.

The Germans anticipated this and decided to launch a spoiling attack of their own , albeit on a relatively small scale, in order to disrupt the disruptors.

This , I believe, was to be replicated on a larger scale the following year at Verdun, when the Germans seized an initiative and disrupted a colossal Allied coalition offensive on all fronts scheduled to erupt in the summer of that year.

This is interpretive and speculative on my part, and I’ll be happy to be corrected.



Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2023 6:56:45 AM
Tomorrow we recognize all the sacrifices that the ANZAC troops made, not just in WWI but WWII & other times you have been such good Allies! Have a good Commemoration, & I'll dance with Matilda anytime!! Of course this recognizes this day in 1915's invasion of Gallipoli! Any other MHO'ers feel free to comment!??

Also on this date, 4-25, note the following, & please comment!? Anyone??

1599 Oliver Cromwell's birthday Just what did he mean to England?? I would say in general, us State siders don't know much about British history???

1792 the guillotine is 1st used! Any volunteer s to see how it works? Hey no reason to lose your head over it!??
Comments on it's use by so called civilized men!??

1859 the Suez Canal is started! How did the British gain control of it for so long?? Anyone?

1865 Union Admiral David Farragut, takes New Orleans! How did this hurt the Confederates!? Comments anyone??

1938 A Seeing Eye Dog is used for the 1st time! One of hundreds of things Man's best friend does for us!? Ya gotta love dogs!? Comments??

Cheers, & please post!?
MD


BTW Hi Phil, sorry to hear about your painful medical problem, put your faith in modern medicine, most of the time they can do miracles! Hoping for the best outcome for you!! &
Please take care!
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2023 2:32:34 PM
Quote:
1859 the Suez Canal is started! How did the British gain control of it for so long?? Anyone?


The Suez Canal Company was started by a French man named Ferdinand de Lessups. It was a public company and French investors owned about half of the shares. The rest was owned by Egypt's ruler, Pasha.

The company took 10 years to build the canal. By 1875 one of the Pasha descendants needed money and he sold the family shares to the British government.

So both Britain and French investors had an interest in the canal. And the British did invade Egypt in 1882. They and the French were upset that an Egyptian military officer had initiated a coup to depose the leader, Pasha. The British said that they wanted to protect the Suez canal but there was concern for the investments by Britons in Egypt that would be threatened by a military take over of government.

The British were victorious and Egypt became a protectorate.

In 1956, Egypt's leader Nasser nationalized the canal. He claimed that he needed the proceeds of canal operations to build the Aswan dam. However, the US and Britain had offered to finance the construction of the dam prior to this.

When the US pulled its support for the Aswan Dam, Nasser declared it to be the property of the state of Egypt, shortly after.


The Suez Crisis followed with British and French and Israeli troops invading Egyptian territory. The US pushed to have the troops withdrawn. Eventually all three countries withdrew under international pressure. Eisenhower had threatened to destroy Britain's fragile economy if they didn't get out. He was going to sell off British pounds held in US banks.

That was pretty embarrassing for the British who had been in control of Egypt for decades and had been an ally of the US in Korea and the second WW. Some historians point to the Suez Crisis as the period in which Britain ceased to be a world power of consequence.

Relations between the US and Egypt weren't particularly good at all in 1956 though. Egypt wanted military arms and the US wouldn't sell it to them so they bought it from USSR satellite countries. The US was concerned that Egypt would attack Israel and that the Soviets were becoming too influential in the area. And of course the spectre of communism influenced US foreign policy and the US was worried that the Soviets would control Egypt and other countries in the Arab world.

Eisenhower didn't want the Arab nations to perceive the invasion by Britain, France and Israel as just more western imperialism. The could drive Arab nations to want to become part of the Soviet sphere.

When Nasser sank ships in the canal to block it, Great Britain lost the canal route taken by ships that carried Britain's oil supply. Britain asked the US for oil and the US refused. Israel pulled back, followed by the departure of France and Britain.

The UN got involved in the crisis and its first peace keeping mission was proposed by Canada's Lester B. Pearson and an international force was sent to patrol the border between Egypt and Israel. Pearson won the Nobel Peace prize for his work.

And Nasser nationalized the Suez canal which had been legally owned by Britain and France.

Cheers,

George

Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 814
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2023 4:09:27 PM
This morning April 25th, Australian and New Zealand troops land on the shores of Gallipoli in conjunction with British and French attacks elsewhere on the peninsula.


Anzac Day is a massive national holiday in Australia and New Zealand, with a number of traditions observed annually.
The history of Anzac Day is revised and told for all future generations to remember. To honor the historical event in WWI, the first tradition of the day begins at dawn with the ‘dawn service.’ This is the time Anzac soldiers made their move on Gallipoli beach. This is followed by a traditional ‘gunfire breakfast,’ just like the troops had during World War I.
Marches and parades follow, with participants wearing medals and rosemary. Wreaths of flowers are also laid for the deceased.

Warfare and the Anzac troops are the hot topics of the day, with historical material, photographs of post-campaign ceremonies, and sound recordings available for educational purposes and to preserve their significance.

The last surviving soldier who fought in the Gallipoli campaign, Alec Campbell, passed away in 2002.

Anzac Day began as a day to honor those who lost their lives in World War I. Now it recognizes all veterans who have paid the ultimate price.

"They went with songs to the battle, they were young, strong of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."

"LEST WE FORGET"
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2023 6:41:06 PM
Hi Wazza,

It was an amazing battle the Anzac troops put up in Gallipoli, the losses were terrible!? Churchill & the Commonwealth brains trust certainly didn't do a good job in planning & conducting this major operation!? I have seen Mel Gibson's movie Gallipoli, & he, being a good Aussie Actor I thought the movie was fairly well done! What say you?

We won't forget!
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/24/2023 9:11:16 PM
Quote:
On 25 April 1915 Australian soldiers landed at what is now called Anzac Cove on the Gallipoli Peninsula.

For the vast majority of the 16,000 Australians and New Zealanders who landed on that day, it was their first experience of combat. By that evening, 2,000 of them had been killed or wounded.


The Gallipoli campaign was a military failure. However, the traits that were shown there – bravery, ingenuity, endurance and mateship – have become enshrined as defining aspects of the Australian character.

Wazza, a bitch of a battle indeed. Yet IIRC there is a shared memorial to Turks and Anzacs today, one of few such structures for international conflicts. That is a truly astounding statement! Two points in addition:
• I think of that first-day loss rate: 12.5%, using your round figures. I know I’m comparing apples and oranges, but potential losses during ship engagements were often much higher, and inevitably led to defeat through loss of ship. Of 2,200, only 120 survived (94.55 loss) the sinking of the Bismarck, e.g.; HMS Hood saved only 3 of some 1418 (a loss of 99.7%).But a different false comparison can be found in RAF statistics. Typically, an RAF Bomber Command battle would last at most last 4-6 days, with two to three raids typical in that period. On 7/8 November 1941 RAF BC losses reached 12.4%, a percentage pretty similar to ANZAC losses on Day 1 of Gallipoli. These losses led to a change in command (Sir Richard Peirse was replaced by Arthur Harris (though that took 3 months), major bombing practices were curtailed, and the entire raison d’etre of Bomber Command went under scrutiny. The Anzacs (and other troops), after a 12.5% loss on Day One, were simply to continue on Day Two (and thereafter) for nine bloody months! Apples and Oranges, of course. But also, I’m tempted to think, in addition to a difference between two wars and perhaps a difference in attitude to orders from senior politicos, there may also be other, less reputable reasons for the 9 months of additional unsuccessful hell.
• I’m certain that, pride aside, there is no reason to exclude Kiwis from at least three traits shown at Gallipoli – bravery, engenuity, endurance. Kiwis seemed to have shared (and continue to share) those strengths with Aussies, though like everything Kiwi they are more subdued.. “Mateness” I will leave to Aussies; there is no other word to describe that quality, though I might suggest that “mateness” isn’t necessarily a military descriptor. At any way, just a thought.

So here we are. Tomorrow (I’m writing this on 24 ApriI ) I will think of Bogle’s lines:
Johnny Turk he was ready; he’d primed himself well,
He showered us with bullets and he rained us with shell
And in five minutes flat he’d blown us all to Hell –
Nearly blew us right back to Australia!


I hope your dawn service was a moving as always. And thank you, Wazza, for contributing to Anzac efforts to make this screwed-up world work.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2023 9:26:47 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1859 the Suez Canal is started! How did the British gain control of it for so long?? Anyone?


The Suez Canal Company was started by a French man named Ferdinand de Lessups. It was a public company and French investors owned about half of the shares. The rest was owned by Egypt's ruler, Pasha.

The company took 10 years to build the canal. By 1875 one of the Pasha descendants needed money and he sold the family shares to the British government.

So both Britain and French investors had an interest in the canal. And the British did invade Egypt in 1882. They and the French were upset that an Egyptian military officer had initiated a coup to depose the leader, Pasha. The British said that they wanted to protect the Suez canal but there was concern for the investments by Britons in Egypt that would be threatened by a military take over of government.

The British were victorious and Egypt became a protectorate.

In 1956, Egypt's leader Nasser nationalized the canal. He claimed that he needed the proceeds of canal operations to build the Aswan dam. However, the US and Britain had offered to finance the construction of the dam prior to this.

When the US pulled its support for the Aswan Dam, Nasser declared it to be the property of the state of Egypt, shortly after.


The Suez Crisis followed with British and French and Israeli troops invading Egyptian territory. The US pushed to have the troops withdrawn. Eventually all three countries withdrew under international pressure. Eisenhower had threatened to destroy Britain's fragile economy if they didn't get out. He was going to sell off British pounds held in US banks.

That was pretty embarrassing for the British who had been in control of Egypt for decades and had been an ally of the US in Korea and the second WW. Some historians point to the Suez Crisis as the period in which Britain ceased to be a world power of consequence.

Relations between the US and Egypt weren't particularly good at all in 1956 though. Egypt wanted military arms and the US wouldn't sell it to them so they bought it from USSR satellite countries. The US was concerned that Egypt would attack Israel and that the Soviets were becoming too influential in the area. And of course the spectre of communism influenced US foreign policy and the US was worried that the Soviets would control Egypt and other countries in the Arab world.

Eisenhower didn't want the Arab nations to perceive the invasion by Britain, France and Israel as just more western imperialism. The could drive Arab nations to want to become part of the Soviet sphere.

When Nasser sank ships in the canal to block it, Great Britain lost the canal route taken by ships that carried Britain's oil supply. Britain asked the US for oil and the US refused. Israel pulled back, followed by the departure of France and Britain.

The UN got involved in the crisis and its first peace keeping mission was proposed by Canada's Lester B. Pearson and an international force was sent to patrol the border between Egypt and Israel. Pearson won the Nobel Peace prize for his work.

And Nasser nationalized the Suez canal which had been legally owned by Britain and France.

Cheers,

George



Hi George,

Certainly the history of the Suez Canal is complicated for all the parties involved. Control by the British was wainning, & Egypt always could play sides. Later that's what Nassar did when the Aswan Dam funds were needed for it's construction!? Always the conflict with Israel comes into play as well? Remember the Six Days War among other.wars between the sides!? Complicated to say the least!?


What say you?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2023 9:41:10 AM
MD, I am certainly no expert on geopolitics or realpolitik but I can't help but note that the US attitude and behaviour when disputes over the ownership of the Panama Canal developed, were quite different than during the Suez Canal crisis.

The Suez Canal crisis developed in 1956 while the Panama Canal Crisis developed in 1964. During the former the US was adamant that Britain and France would not pursue their interests in Egypt and at the Suez Canal. During the latter, the US tried to enforce its imperial policies with little to stop it despite international condemnation.

Were the circumstances surrounding both affairs similar? How were they different?

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2023 11:39:16 AM
Hi George,

The original event as I posted, is below, lets keep the US & their perceived canal policies out of this. Just repeat after me the US is as innocent as the new falling snow! ☺

1859 the Suez Canal is started! How did the British gain control of it for so long?? Anyone?

Please, peace!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/25/2023 3:08:15 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

The original event as I posted, is below, lets keep the US & their perceived canal policies out of this. Just repeat after me the US is as innocent as the new falling snow! ☺

1859 the Suez Canal is started! How did the British gain control of it for so long?? Anyone?

Please, peace!
MD



I answered that post and provided extra relevant information. The British imposed their will upon a good chunk of the world in their time and so do many of the world's most powerful nations. The US is included in that. That's why I posed further questions for discussion.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/26/2023 8:35:25 AM
Any topcs for 4-26???

Tomorrow, 4-27 in history, the following events happened! Comments on any of them??

1296, Edward I, defeats the Scots at the battle of Dunbar! Can anyone enlighten us on why the Scots lost??

1773 the British Parliament Passes the Tea Act! A party will insue, boy back then they really liked their tea?? Anyone on its significance??

1813 Americans capture the old city of York! (Toronto), the capital city of Ontario! Why couldn't they follow up this big victory!?? Anyone?

1861 Abraham Lincoln suspends the Writ of Habious Corpus! Can he do this? & why?? Anyone??

1865 the Sultana explodes & sinks, over 1,200 Union soldiers, x POWs, die!? Where & how did this occur!? Comments??

1975 Saigon is surrounded by N. Vietnamese troops! Anyone have a website on the last US military to leave??

1978 the Afghanistan Revolution begins! Is it still going on today? Also the Afghan s were able to defeat the Russians! Perhaps this gives hope for Ukraine!? What say you??

1989 protesting students take over Tianenan Square! Remember the picture of the unarmed student in front of tanks!? Could anyone post it??

Any new topics, or posts on these or other new events??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
4/26/2023 2:11:26 PM
Quote:
1989 protesting students take over Tianenan Square! Remember the picture of the unarmed student in front of tanks!? Could anyone post it??

Any new topics, or posts on these or other new events??
Regards,
MD


Soon enough MD, unfortunately, we will see that pic all over the net after the Chicoms invade Taiwan and it will have as much meaning and purpose now as it did then.., nadda!.

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
4/26/2023 4:00:18 PM
Dan is right.

That photo of a Chinese civilian staring down a tank column is the single greatest image of a courageous stand for freedom in the face of tyranny that I have seen. And most people in this country don`t even recognize how important that is anymore . Many would accuse the "bullying civilian of triggering that poor tank commander!"

If there is one person I would love to reach out to and shake hands with...it is that unknown hero...if he is not in prison or dead.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/26/2023 4:16:55 PM
Quote:
1813 Americans capture the old city of York! (Toronto), the capital city of Ontario! Why couldn't they follow up this big victory!?? Anyone?


US Sec. of State, John Armstrong had originally planned to attack Kingston which was the centre of the British defence of Upper Canada. But Armstrong and Gen. Dearborn were fearful that they didn't have the numbers and firepower to attack the large garrison at Kingston. And so they amassed about 2700 men to attack the town of York which was defended by about 700 British regulars under Roger Sheaffe.

At this stage of the war the US had the upper hand on Lake Ontario. And if you wanted to move troops and cannon on the north side of Lake Ontario then you had to do it with ships on the lake. There were very few roads in UC and especially in the western end. This province was heavily wooded and travel between locations on land was on First Nations trails for the most part. So the attack on York was from the water. It was either that or cut through some heavy bush.

Governor Simcoe of UC immediately after the American Revolution began to construct a road from York due north to a large lake called Lake Simcoe. This road called Yonge St. would have allowed wagon travel to that lake and then it was possible to get to Georgian Bay via Simcoe and portages. But this road was of no help to the invading Americans at York in 1813.


The British fought back but Maj. Gen. Sheaffe ordered the regulars to head for the trail to Kingston. They had no chance to defeat 2700 troops. The militia were left to secure terms from the Americans. But as they left, they blew up an ammunition storage building. Forty Americans died immediately and there were 200 wounded. Some of them died as well. The American general, Zebulon Pike, also died in the explosion. The Americans saw this action as a dirty trick but Sheaffe could not leave gunpowder and equipment to the US forces.

Rather than chase the British who had a head start, the Americans chose to ransack the government buildings and to burn them down. They even took the books from the public library.
The British had also burned a warship, the HMS Isaac Brock which was under construction. The launch of that vessel would have changed the strategy on Lake Ontario as the balance of power would have been altered.

So why didn't they head toward Kingston? I don't think that they had any intention to attack Kingston anyway. Too well protected. As well, travel by land with a large army would have been difficult in the western part of Upper Canada in 1813.

But it was a victory and one unintended result was that ammunition and cannon and other military goods that were destined to be sent to the British naval squadron on Lake Erie did not arrive. That placed the squadron at a disadvantage in September 1813 during the Battle of Lake Erie (Put-in Bay). The British ships were poorly equipped to fight that battle.

They fought because the loss of the lake would mean that British troops would have to pull back to the east. Lake Erie and the Detroit River allowed the British to secure their flank and prevent the Americans from heading to the upper Great Lakes. And indeed, with the defeat at Put-in Bay, the British were forced to retreat to the east.

So the Battle of York was not inconsequential. It did influence later battles.

I want to add that the infighting between the American army and the navy made it difficult to win land battles on the Niagara Peninsula. Commodore Isaac Chauncey was very protective of his squadron. He and the British naval commander, Sir James Yeo, engaged in a ship building war throughout the war. Whomever should launch the larger squadron on Lake Ontario with a larger fleet would command the lake. And so as they waited to dominate, the two navies simply avoided one another. There was never a major battle between the two squadrons throughout the war.

Chauncey was perhaps the more cautious of the two and he was adamant that the army commanders would not tell him what to do with his ships. There were times that the American forces on the Niagara Peninsula needed naval support, either for transport or for artillery support but Chauncey would refuse or would head back to safe harbour at Sacket's Harbour if he felt that Yeo was lurking with his squadron. At the Battle of York, Chauncey had the upper hand and was willing to transport troops to York and to bombard the town as well.

When the British finally launched HMS St. Lawrence from the Royal Navy dockyard in 1814, the balance of power on the lake shifted to the British. This ship was the only ship of the line ever built on the Great Lakes and it was larger and had more guns than Nelson's ship, Victory, at Trafalgar.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2023 7:44:13 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1989 protesting students take over Tianenan Square! Remember the picture of the unarmed student in front of tanks!? Could anyone post it??

Any new topics, or posts on these or other new events??
Regards,
MD


Soon enough MD, unfortunately, we will see that pic all over the net after the Chicoms invade Taiwan and it will have as much meaning and purpose now as it did then.., nadda!.

Dan


Guys,

If I recall didn't the brave student actually continue to move in front of the tank even as it tried to move around him?? But today, the scary part is Dan, you may be right, if Russia will invade Ukraine, what's to stop Red China from invading Taiwan!?

Not a pleasant thought!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2023 11:01:34 AM
Quote:
Soon enough MD, unfortunately, we will see that pic all over the net after the Chicoms invade Taiwan and it will have as much meaning and purpose now as it did then.., nadda!.

Dan


Quote:
Guys,

If I recall didn't the brave student actually continue to move in front of the tank even as it tried to move around him?? But today, the scary part is Dan, you may be right, if Russia will invade Ukraine, what's to stop Red China from invading Taiwan!?

Not a pleasant thought!
MD


He did continue to block the lead tank and even climbed onto the tank, opened a hatch and spoke to someone within. Shortly later, he was escorted away by two men and never heard from again. No one outside of his immediate family and the Chicoms who swept him away know who he is; the claims by one man claiming to be the "tank man" have been proven to be false.

The chilling matter of this is that it is estimated anywhere from 300-2,700 or more Chinese civilians were murdered during the 1989 protest. The ~24,000,000 Taiwanese do not stand a chance when invaded and the Chicoms have clearly shown throughout their history that brutal repression of their own people can be extreme but now its the traitorous Nationalists who will pay the extreme price.

Another way to look at this is, what country is going to throw themselves to the forefront to protect and fight for the Taiwanese and if someone did, what and how are they going to stop the Chicoms from invading and conquering them?

Unfortunately, Taiwan is in the long term screwed.

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2023 3:20:48 PM
Today 4-27 in history! Events not yet commented on!?

1296, Edward I, defeats the Scots at the battle of Dunbar! Can anyone enlighten us on why the Scots lost??

1773 the British Parliament Passes the Tea Act! A party will insue, boy back then they really liked their tea?? Anyone on its significance??

1813 Americans capture the old city of York! (Toronto), the capital city of Ontario! Why couldn't they follow up this big victory!?? Thanks for the response George, would you say that this was the closest the US came to taking what will become Ontario??

1861 Abraham Lincoln suspends the Writ of Habious Corpus! Can he do this? Did he have a choice, & why?? Anyone??

1865 the Sultana explodes & sinks, over 1,200 Union soldiers, x POWs, die!? Here the survive the CW & even a terrible ordeal in a CSA prison camp!? Where & how did this occur!? Comments, anyone???

1975 Saigon is surrounded by N. Vietnamese troops! Anyone have a website on the last US military to leave? ?It had to be scary!?

1978 the Afghanistan Revolution begins! Is it still going on today? Also the Afghan s were able to defeat the Russians! Perhaps this gives hope for Ukraine!? What say you??


Any new topics, or posts?
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2023 3:51:57 PM
Quote:
1813 Americans capture the old city of York! (Toronto), the capital city of Ontario! Why couldn't they follow up this big victory!?? Thanks for the response George, would you say that this was the closest the US came to taking what will become Ontario??


No, I don't think so. The Battle of York was strategically insignificant. It was the most successful of the US attempts to attack smaller British towns on Lake Ontario and the St. Lawrence River. But the Americans didn't stay at York. They left after six days of occupation.

Perhaps not as well known is the the US returned to York for two more attacks. In July of 1813 Winfield Scott landed with a battalion of troops. His initial plan was to land at Burlington Heights at the far west end of Lake Ontario but he decided not to do so. I forget why. Anyway, there were no British troops stationed there so they just took any military goods that they could find. They burned any military and government buildings that they had missed in April.

Oh and they brought back the library books that they had stolen in April.

In August of 1814 the Americans were back again. They had been pursuing a British ship on Lake Ontario and suspected that it was based at York. York was better defended by this time. The fort had been rebuilt and more militia troops had been sent.

The Americans sent a small boat sailing under a white flag into the harbour but the Canadian militia fired on it and it headed back out onto the lake to join the rest of the squadron.

If anyone is ever in Toronto, Fort York is open to visit. Unfortunately, it now sits partly under the monumentally ugly and raised Gardiner Expressway. It is also not right on the water as fill has been added over the centuries to add land to the city waterfront.



Of course, the British were conducting raids on the other side of the lake too.

The US chose to fight most land battles on the Niagara Peninsula with invasions in 1812, 1813 and 1814. The US was repulsed in all three years but the closest that it came to victory was in 1814 with a victory at Chippawa and and outstanding performance at Lundy's Lane. But the US left the field of battle and retreated to Fort Erie after Lundy's Lane and would then head back home after withstanding a siege at Fort Erie. That was it for invasions of Upper Canada.

Attempts to attack Lower Canada (now Québec) also failed in 1813 with a defeat at Chateauguay and another just on the Upper Canada side of the line, at Crysler's Farm.

We recall that the US had defeated the British at the Battle of Lake Erie. This forced the British to give up Fort Detroit that they had seized earlier in the war and they retreated toward the western end of Lake Ontario.

In late 1814, US Brig.General Duncan McArthur led 700 Kentuckians on horseback across southwest Upper Canada. His goal was to burn and pillage and this he did and he concentrated on the destruction of mills to ensure that the British would have less to eat. Of course, the people living in that part of UC would also starve. McArthur was a hot head. He didn't trust the French-Canadians living in the Michigan territory and he was going to burn their properties down but others convinced him that it wouldn't do to attack civilians who had been living in US territory for a long time. They were Americans after all despite their French-Canadian background.

So McArthur's men roamed across SW UC and burned and stole whatever they liked. The Kentuckians were extremely violent and reportedly always drunk. They seemed to lack discipline and it showed in the destruction that they wrought.

But McArthur's exploits didn't come close to seizing Upper Canada. He travelled almost to Burlington Heights on Lake Ontario. Prior to that he had studiously avoided taking on the Mohawks at the Six Nations Reserve on the Grand River. He headed south toward Lake Erie and fought a couple of battles and continued to destroy mills before heading back home. Plenty of damage done but the strategy was insufficient to defeat the British.

McArthur was often destroying the property of Americans who had come to Canada for free land. His actions certainly didn't win any friends among these former residents of the US. As the war progressed they became hardened against the US forces because of their destruction of private property.

My best guess is that the best chance to seize Upper Canada would have been in 1813, before the British had the chance to send more veterans of the Napoleonic wars. If the US could have taken Niagara, then the route to Kingston would have been open.

But the US was unable to seize the Niagara Peninsula from where they hoped to cross Lake Ontario to retake York and then Kingston.

I think that if they had had better leadership when the pincer movement to take Montréal was initiated, that that would have been a better strategy than to continue to invade the Niagara Peninsula. Seizure of Montréal would have separated the British forces at Kingston from those at Québec City. But the attempt failed miserably because of brilliant victories by French-Canadian militia at Chateauguay and British regulars at Crysler's Farm.

By 1814, the British were attacking the eastern seaboard and planning attacks on land into the US. The tide was turning but not quickly enough. The British decided that peace was better than prosecuting this annoying little war.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2023 6:45:16 PM
Hi George,

You don't paint to much of a encouraging picture of the US taking your area of Canada! It is easier to defend than to attack, also in most of these attacks the US forces also were involved in other areas for battle. Speaking of Kingston, that's not to far from where you live now, Centre Hastings!? Well a grand old Canadian Steamship the SS Keewatin is being moved from Georgian Bay to a museum in Kingston, Ontario!???

check it out!
Regards,
MD
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