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Message
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2023 8:04:49 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

You don't paint to much of a encouraging picture of the US taking your area of Canada! It is easier to defend than to attack, also in most of these attacks the US forces also were involved in other areas for battle. Speaking of Kingston, that's not to far from where you live now, Centre Hastings!? Well a grand old Canadian Steamship the SS Keewatin is being moved from Georgian Bay to a museum in Kingston, Ontario!???

check it out!
Regards,
MD


MD, the US had the advantage of numbers but they weren't very competent in 1812. The British and Canadians were on the defensive for most of the war until the latter part of 1814 when the British were able to send more regulars to Canada. The US army was better in 1813 but was still defeated in some key battles.

US plans included multiple attacks because they had the numbers to do so. The British were under orders to assume a defensive posture and that's what they did. The numbers weren't there until 1814 to allow them to attack.

Yes, Kingston is not far, about one hour from my home. It's a great smaller city with interesting architecture and a top rated university, Queen's. And the old fortress, Fort Henry, is a must see if travelling in the area.

SS. Keewatin will have a new home at the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes in Kingston.

Cheers,

George


OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/27/2023 9:04:58 PM
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9104
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2023 7:39:55 AM
[Read More]
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2023 7:43:52 AM


4-28 in history,

1758 James Monroe, who was responsible later for the Monroe Doctrine! Was this good for all North American Countries? What say you???

1789 Capt William Bligh set adrift by mutineers!.who was to blame for the Bounty Mutiny??

1945 Benito Mussolini executed! How could he fall so far from grace with the Italian people!?? Anyone??

1969 Charles de Gaulle resigns his presidency! Did he ever have an effect on Canada??

Comments, anyone?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2023 7:50:35 AM
Quote:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9104


This one is free from Gutenberg, I think.

Hopefully, it balances the naval contests on the lakes with a good study of events as they unfolded on the Atlantic. After a few single ship victories, the USN was tied to port unable to move because of the British blockade which also furthered its offensive actions on the US coast.

The battle on Lake Erie forced the British to retreat to the east. That was part of the plan should occupation of the eastern part of Michigan prove to be untenable. But it was certainly a blow to the British defensive plan. As well, the First Nations confederation under Tecumseh died along with him at the Battle of the Thames.

So the US had Erie and access to the southwest part of Upper Canada which it failed to exploit. But they also failed to retake Michilimackinac and so the British controlled access to the upper lakes.

Nothing conclusive happened on Lake Ontario though the USN failed to properly support operations on the Niagara Peninsula. The squadron under Chauncey certainly had superior numbers from time to time as the two sides engaged in a ship building war.

The battle on Lake Champlain was important though. It did no damage to the 30,000 British regulars now available in Canada but with that loss on the water the British commander did not want to advance with his troops through Plattsburgh and points south. His officers who were veterans of the Napoleonic wars were apoplectic at their commander's reticence.
But the British had had enough and did not wish to pursue this war any longer even though they were on the offensive. I don't think that they could have conquered their former colonies without a massive commitment of troops and ships.

Without reading Roosevelt's book on Gutenberg, allow me to include this article that gives the British perspective on the naval war during the War of 1812.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2023 10:27:58 AM
Yep, Project Gutenberg is dedicated to expanding access to many kinds of books, all freely downloadable.
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2023 12:21:59 PM
Here is a link to the digital book index on the War of 1812. It is four pages and most of the books are from the 19th and early 20th centuries. Unfortunately some of the links no longer work.

[Read More]

While most if not all are interesting some that I particularly liked are:

Prologue To War: England & The U.S. 1805-1812 by Bradford Perkins

A narrative of the campaigns of the British army at Washington and New Orleans, under Generals Ross, Pakenham, and Lambert, in the years 1814 and 1815; with some account of the countries visited by George Robert Gleig

Sea Power in its relations to the War of 1812 by Alfred Thayer Mahan

And as already mentioned here,

The Naval War of 1812; or, The history of the United States during the last war with Great Britain; to which is appended an account of the Battle of New Orleans by Theodore Roosevelt

Gary
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2023 3:34:02 PM
Quote:
[

Yes, Kingston is not far, about one hour from my home. It's a great smaller city with interesting architecture and a top rated university, Queen's.

Cheers, George


My cousin lives in Kingston and her two daughters went to Queens. We Scousers get everywhere.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2023 3:50:40 PM
Quote:
Quote:
[

Yes, Kingston is not far, about one hour from my home. It's a great smaller city with interesting architecture and a top rated university, Queen's.

Cheers, George


My cousin lives in Kingston and her two daughters went to Queens. We Scousers get everywhere.

Trevor



Small world isn't it, Trevor? Kingston is a nice spot to live and the Canadian Shield (lots of rock) comes close to Lake Ontario at that point so it isn't far to drive to get to cottage country and hundreds of lakes.

Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/28/2023 9:12:03 PM
Quote:
1758 James Monroe, who was responsible later for the Monroe Doctrine! Was this good for all North American Countries? What say you???


Declared in 1823, the Monroe Doctrine was a foreign policy statement. In brief, the policy stated that the US would not tolerate any attempts by foreign powers to colonize countries in the hemisphere that the US considered its sphere of influence. The US had no problem with countries in the hemisphere that were already colonized. The doctrine did not say that the US was opposed to European colonies that already existed.

It was concerned that Spain would attempt to reclaim its colonial properties in the Caribbean and South America that had declared independence.

It was also concerned that the British with interests in the Caribbean were becoming too close to Cuba, an area that the US coveted.

The Monroe Doctrine was not declared for altruistic reasons. The US feared the return of foreign powers with powerful militaries so it put everyone on warning. However, there was little that it could do about a foreign incursion in some remote part of the hemisphere.

But the Doctrine did not protect Canada in 1823. Canada did not exist and it consisted of a group of British colonies that had not joined the American Revolution.

Bolstered by its belief in Manifest Destiny, the US was prepared to conquer or purchase as much of North America as it could get. Even as late as 1866 a bill to annex Canada was introduced into the US House of Representatives. It had detailed plans to purchase rather than invade, the British colonies. The bill described how Newfoundland would become part of the new state of Quebec while Prince Edward Island would become part of the new state of Nova Scotia. The bill did not pass but the fact that someone had taken the initiative to develop a comprehensive bill to take all of British territory is difficult to reconcile with the policies described in the Monroe Doctrine.

North America in 1866 had the annexation bill become law.

Note approval of the British provinces was required but the US had already indicated its willingness to engage in military filibustering. The Canadas had good reason to be fearful.



In 1866, the Canadas and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick were preparing to join one another in a Confederation while at the same time the US was deliberating how to annex these territories. I have read that this bill was not a serious initiative and was designed more to placate the Irish immigrants in the US. Be that as it may, we may imagine the anger and fear that the existence of such a bill would have caused in BNA.

So no, the Monroe Doctrine was not particularly good for Canada or for Mexico for that matter, at least not in the 19th century.

I remind myself that FDR was still citing the Monroe Doctrine when he was trying to convince political enemies that he would not be entering the country into WWII. He said that the only thing that would bring the US into the war was a violation of the doctrine by a foreign power. In 1938, FDR was at Queen's University, in Kingston, Ontario to give a speech and in that speech he promised that the people of the US would not stand by if Canada was invaded by a foreign power. Of course, the Canadians were thrilled to hear that as the drums of war were beating loudly for the Commonwealth countries.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2023 6:45:38 AM
D
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2023 6:47:51 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

I never looked at the Monroe Doctrine from that perspective! So you live in West Canada, the nice map shows that.I once went to Selkirk Territory, when driving around Lake Superior!

Thanks,
MD

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2023 7:47:29 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi George,

I never looked at the Monroe Doctrine from that perspective! So you live in West Canada, the nice map shows that.I once went to Selkirk Territory, when driving around Lake Superior!

Thanks,
MD



Hi MD. I sense that the Monroe Doctrine is perceived in the US as a positive initiative to protect all of the countries of the hemisphere. But it was never intended as a good will gesture. The US was in an economic competition in the hemisphere in 1823 with Britain, France, Spain and Russia all players in the game. Geopolitical struggles guided this foreign policy statement.

I mentioned that the US wanted assurance that its interests in the Caribbean would be protected and that its desire for expansion on the North American continent could go ahead. The US was especially interested in Cuba and knew that the British had interests there too.

Westward expansion was also an objective and the Pacific territories and coast were a hotly contested competition zone.

By declaring itself the proprietor of the hemisphere the US hoped that European powers would not seek to expand colonial empires or, in the case of Spain, to return to South, Central and North America to re-establish itself in former colonies that had declared independence.

It is an interesting concept map, isn't it? We will never know but I wonder whether the sale of Alaska would have gone ahead in 1867 had the US already annexed all of BNA. Assuming that the US convinced the British colonies to join, it would have cost the US millions of dollars to buy the favour of those colonies. It was all described in the Annexation bill of 1866. Would there have been sufficient funds for the Alaska deal with Russia?

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2023 1:40:36 PM
" But it was never intended as a good will gesture."

I thought it was, at least in part, as a means of stopping further colonization in this hemisphere.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2023 2:15:47 PM
Quote:
" But it was never intended as a good will gesture."

I thought it was, at least in part, as a means of stopping further colonization in this hemisphere.


Unless the US was doing the colonizing, OP. From what I have read the US was very concerned about its political and economic opponents operating in the hemisphere. Monroe demanded that the European powers respect US hegemony in the hemisphere. This was America's sphere of influence. The US already had its hands full in dealing with the British, French, Spanish and Russians, all of whom had long established interests on the North American continent. And the Monroe Doctrine, which was never officially adopted in any way, supported the continuation of colonial practices already established.

That would have been pretty hard to enforce in 1823. Perhaps the declaration was aspirational at that time.

Of course the other countries in the hemisphere weren't asked whether they were happy with this arrangement but were too weak to do much about it. Realpolitik.

The doctrine was modified by people like Teddy Roosevelt who said that the US was justified in interfering in the politics of Central and South America. That was a 180 degree turn from the initial application of the document as it applied to Europeans. I think that TR's interpretation has been called the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine.

In our world today we acknowledge that the US provides a protective shield over this hemisphere and projects its power beyond that range too. There is a cost to that of course. The US has to be consulted whenever a smaller nation makes a change to foreign policy. That has been going on at least since WWII and even during the war when the US was neutral.

Cheers,

George


OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2023 2:50:25 PM
"From what I have read the US was very concerned about its political and economic opponents operating in the hemisphere."
Any number of opinions on the matter.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
4/29/2023 3:23:30 PM
One wonders what would have happened if Simon Bolivar had achieved his dream of a United States of Venezuala ( or was it Colombia) after the wars of liberation against Spain.

Trevor

Edit: What an achievement. To have a country named after you.
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/30/2023 8:24:25 AM

Hi MD.

It is an interesting concept map, isn't it? We will never know but I wonder whether the sale of Alaska would have gone ahead in 1867 had the US already annexed all of BNA. Assuming that the US convinced the British colonies to join, it would have cost the US millions of dollars to buy the favour of those colonies. It was all described in the Annexation bill of 1866. Would there have been sufficient funds for the Alaska deal with Russia?

Cheers,

George


Well George,

We could have borrowed the money from the Scotia Bank!!?? ☺

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/30/2023 11:23:17 AM
On this day in 4-30 1945, Adolf Hitler, Germany’s Führer of Germany during the 12 year run of the Third Reich, took his own life, reportedly by cyanide and gunshot. Hitler’s new bride and long-time mistress, Eva Braun, joined him in death. This marked the effective end of Nazi power in Germany. BG

Comments or websites on the end of Hitler!?? Anyone?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/30/2023 2:43:14 PM
Quote:

Hi MD.

It is an interesting concept map, isn't it? We will never know but I wonder whether the sale of Alaska would have gone ahead in 1867 had the US already annexed all of BNA. Assuming that the US convinced the British colonies to join, it would have cost the US millions of dollars to buy the favour of those colonies. It was all described in the Annexation bill of 1866. Would there have been sufficient funds for the Alaska deal with Russia?

Cheers,

George


Well George,

We could have borrowed the money from the Scotia Bank!!?? ☺

Cheers,
MD



I suspect that the annexation of the Canadas and the Maritime colonies would have received much more support than the purchase of Seward's Folly, Alaska. The US had been making noise since the revolution about taking over British North America. US newspapers and some politicians had been posturing and making threatening remarks throughout the civil war to let the Canadas know that troops would be crossing the line unless the Neutrality Act in Canada was enforced stringently.

I don't believe that anyone felt that Alaska was a worthwhile purchase until it was offered for a song.

Must have been heady times for the expansionists in the US. As well, the US had a lot on its plate in 1866 what with wrapping up the war and initiating reconstruction.

A leader had been assassinated in 1865. And what to do with that million man army, some of whom were itching to attack the British in Canada?

As for Canada, it was shocked to find that the British were being quite wishy washy, to the point of opposition, about a commitment to defend Canada should the Americans attack. And Canada fully expected to be attacked once the civil war ended. So the Canadas were trying to convince the other colonies of BNA to join them in a Confederation. Surely the US wouldn't attack another country without cause, would they?

I would have loved to have lived in those times. There was a lot happening in North America. Heady times, as I said.

Cheers,

George

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2023 7:34:48 AM

Hi MD.

I don't believe that anyone felt that Alaska was a worthwhile purchase until it was offered for a song.

The US had a lot on its plate in 1866 what with wrapping up the war and initiating reconstruction.

A leader had been assassinated in 1865. And what to do with that million man army, some of whom were itching to attack the British in Canada? Canada fully expected to be attacked once the civil war ended. Surely the US wouldn't attack another country without cause, would they?

I would have loved to have lived in those times. There was a lot happening in North America. Heady times, as I said.

Cheers,

George


Hi George,

After over 4 years of the most horrific costly combat the world has ever seen! The US was sick of warfare! There is no way they would attack Canada back then!!!

Believe me!
MD

BTW Alaska was offered for a song! Hypothetical, if the US had taken what today is Canada, would it be the largest country in the world, topping Russia?? & George you wouldn't liked to live in those times! No NHL hockey!? ☺

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2023 7:54:56 AM
Well it is May Day today or on the first Monday after May 1 and a celebration of the labouring class in many countries. It is also called International Workers' Day.

Why is May Day still so popular in many parts of the world but not here in North America?

If May Day is celebrated in your country, please weigh in to explain whether or why it is an important event in the calendar?

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2023 12:33:22 PM
May Day is a remnant of the Bolshevik Revolution, a large celebration in communist countries where labor and laborers are celebrated by folks who celebrate labor...if it works under government control, not entrepreneurship and capitalism.

While we all should honor workers, it is the aspect of so many who do so also don`t want a capitalist system that makes many in capitalist and more individualist economies and markets make it a bit less grand in North American Republics, or Western democracies.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2023 1:11:30 PM
Quote:
Well it is May Day today or on the first Monday after May 1 and a celebration of the labouring class in many countries. It is also called International Workers' Day.

Why is May Day still so popular in many parts of the world but not here in North America?

If May Day is celebrated in your country, please weigh in to explain whether or why it is an important event in the calendar?




May Day used to be more important than it is today in Canada and especially in Québec. But interest and support for the international labour movement in Canada ebbs and flows with economics and political developments.

Ironically, I believe that the movement saw its origins in a strike action taken in Chicago in 1889, on May 1. The socialist and labour movement was holding a Congress in Paris at the time and it decided to commemorate the strike in the US. Violence did break out in Chicago and I think that the political class on this side of the pond associates the recognition of an International Labour Day on May 1 as being associated with socialist politics and communism.

May Day caught on in Canada in the early part of the 20th century and was centred in Montréal. The Canadian press had covered European May Day celebrations as violent and subversive activities. And so some members of the public and certainly many politicians looked askance at these working people who wished to celebrate on the 1st of May.

As well, the government tended to favour the Labour Day in September and so did many unions because that day always seemed to be a peaceful celebration of workers.

I looked up the date of the Montréal parade that upset so many politicians and run of the mill Canadians. It was 1906 and the parade was attended by many immigrant workers. This didn't help the cause and when speeches were given in French and English, they were also given in Russian and Italian. This raised suspicion as did the big banner held aloft as the workers marched which said in French, "Workers of the World, Unite''. Oh, oh. That was the socialist slogan and it was a red flag, literally and figuratively.

The next year in 1907, marchers were confronted by police. But the Canadian or rather Montréal labour unions did not support the parade organizers seeing them as spouting rhetoric and values inconsistent with those supported by the Montréal unions.

After WW1 and the return of the veterans, May Day increased in popularity. These veterans were not willing to stand by for the same sort of abuse of labour that they experienced before the war. In 1921, the Canadian Communist Party (CPC) was founded and it was no coincidence that May Day became a more prominent day and not just in Québec but across the country.

During the Great Depression there was another surge in support for May Day as desperate workers demanded more from their country and the economy. In the early '30's the RCMP and the Sûreté de Québec confronted marchers in Montréal. In subsequent years, marchers in small towns had water cannon turned on them. In Toronto, the police confiscated workers' banners that were considered subversive.

The government banned the CPC in 1931 and that provided evidence to some workers that the government was their enemy. The government lifted the ban in 1936 and the CPC was involved in organizing May Day events across the country. That was alarming to some politicians.

In the '50's support waned as an anti-communist mood had taken over the mindsets of many western countries.

I think that it is important to acknowledge that many of the working conditions that we take for granted today exist because of the efforts of unionized labour in the past. And those unions have helped raise the boats of all workers. Wages in the private sector rise when union bargaining increases wages for unionized workers.

The eight hour work day is standard and that is what workers in Chicago were fighting for in 1889. Most of the benefits in any job are because unionized workers fought for them.
And defined benefit pensions which should be standard across the board are often a feature of union contracts.

May Day is not an official holiday here but it there are still parades.

Some of the reports indicated that when a parade was organized as a family event with wives and kids walking the parade route, that all was peaceful and so are May Day parades that are held today.

2009 Toronto


2022 Los Angeles




Workers always have to be wary lest the working conditions that they fought for should be quietly taken away.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George

EDIT: Just thinking of the Winnipeg General Strike of 1919. May 15 to June 25, more than 30,000 workers left their jobs in a general strike to protest working conditions primarily in the building trades. But the strike spread to city services. The buses didn't run and shops closed.

They were all angry about wages and inflation. It was impossible to buy food and pay rent. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

It got ugly and the police cracked down. Two protesters killed and many arrested and detained.
It was post war and that saw a downturn in the economy. There was little faith in the capitalist system. Some of the workers had just returned from the war and they expected better. A citizens group got together to protest the protesters. They blamed the Bolsheviks for putting crazy ideas in the heads of the workers.

So May Day or no May Day, there was unrest among the working class in Canada.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2023 4:42:59 PM
Quote:
May Day is a remnant of the Bolshevik Revolution, a large celebration in communist countries where labor and laborers are celebrated by folks who celebrate labor...if it works under government control, not entrepreneurship and capitalism.

While we all should honor workers, it is the aspect of so many who do so also don`t want a capitalist system that makes many in capitalist and more individualist economies and markets make it a bit less grand in North American Republics, or Western democracies.

Respects, Morris


I promise I was not drunk when I crafted that second sentence....but it sucks as a form of English!

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2023 8:17:27 PM
Morris, I think that the type of capitalism that we currently practice does not allow all to succeed. Too often the labour force is unappreciated and whose costs are to be written in red in the ledger. Even successful companies that don't meet their predicted profits in a quarter will often cut staff to ensure that share prices don't drop.

There must be a better way to run an economy so that investors make money and the workers make more than subsistence wages.

To be sure adversarial unionism seems counter productive. Some unions have looked at co-ops as a better route to success. If the workers have a vested interest in the success of the company and stand to gain as the company succeeds, surely that is superior to the business models that are most common in North America.

Make the worker more responsible for the business in which he works by permitting him to invest in that business.

If his capitalist system is to be truly successful than the relationship between workers and management has to move from one of confrontation to collaboration.

Cheers,

George



Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2023 8:56:33 PM
My understanding is that Labour Day and the Labour Movement is far older than, and quite distinct from, Bolshevik Communism. In many countries both in Europe and in the Americas ( I can’t speak to Oz or NZ) political parties often appeared to give labour movements a political voice, but not all were anathema to the various controlling powers (whether capitalistic or class-based).

North America (and IMHO the US in particular) has a rich and fascinating labour history that goes back to at least 1875 in Chicago – and Chicago seems to have been the focal point labour strife and the emergence of various socialist movements. I would also suggest a major marker for labour was the 4 May 1886 Haymarket Affair/Riot which occurred after police confronted a group of (I believe) anarchists after gathering in favour of the 8-hour day, then being demanded by a consolidated labour federation – it might even have been the newly renamed American Federation of Labor. I am not saying this was an AFL gathering, but only a gathering which agreed with the AFL about a mandated 8-hour day, to be mandated on 1 May 1886. A number of people were killed; the number may have been as high as 200. Nobody will ever know. But I believe the event itself and the trial of the so-called “Haymarket Martyrs” became beacons for the various labour movements which arose.

Interestingly, many of the more extreme segments of the labour cause – and I’m thinking particularly of the Anarchists – were reliant on European immigrants, including a healthy proportion of Russian Jews. Emma Goldman, who was still in her teens but married to a chosen husband she disliked, and who worked in a garment factory 12 hours/day, six days per week and who left her husband and was cast out by her family after her experiences in the labour turmoil, tells a wonderful story in her Living My Life, though it might piss some people off. Alexander Berkman’s Prison Memoirs of an Anarchist detailed his time in prison for attempting to murder a mogul of industry, but radiates the somewhat naive hopes and dreams of anarchists.

I could go on. I find the US history of the labour movement fascinating. The “Wobblies” (International Workers of the World) and their I.W.W Songs, still available in print as of 2007 (at ‘selected’ bookshops). The early martyrs of the labour movement – Joe Hill comes to mind. The folks like Woody Guthrie, Cisco Houston and Leadbelly who are often seen as American icons because nobody has listened to all the stanzas of their songs.

Lots more to say. Canadian labour is part of it. Look for a different post.
Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/1/2023 9:20:07 PM
Morris, it was indeed a rather chaotic sentence, though it makes sense when parsed. I don’t know how many times I write a sentence that must be written exactly as is, only to find it may not be perfectly clear to others.

Just for the hell of it I’ve tried to rewrite what I thought your sentence said. No insult implied. I came up with:. This is simply what I got out of your self-admitted chaotic comment: “We should honour workers as a backbone of production. But when labour is seen as a replacement for capitalists, or when folks don’t recognize the equal importance of capitalism to a successful economy, socialism in many North American Republics or western democracies becomes less appealing.”

Cheers,
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 2:37:04 AM
Things change.

Activism - for want of a better word - is strong in what might be described as “ middle class “ cohorts : doctors, teachers, lawyers and white collar folks who , in previous years, had regarded themselves as bastions of stability against the threat of blue collar workers who were seen as “ holding society to ransom in a selfish and irresponsible manner “.

Those blue collar labour contingents have been so depleted or even eradicated that their role is relatively insignificant. Indeed, there is even evidence that they might be assuming. “ right wing” sympathies in contrast with the professional groups who have moved towards the Left or left of centre.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 6:41:15 AM
Today May 2, in history!

2014 (1-24) Pete Seegar the great folk singer passed away at 94! Would anyone want to say a few words on Pete?? Post a song or Two??

1979 Margaret Thatcher becomes the 1st women's leader in Europe, & the longest term for a British Prime minister?! What say you about the Ironlady?? Remember her place in the Falklands War!?? But yet other areas of the British Isles didn't like her? Why? Anyone??

2016 huge fire in Fort MacMurry Alberta 80K were evacuated! Anyone on this dangerous blaze!?? How could it happen, how did they put it out?? What say you?

1970 actually 5-4, 4 students killed by National Guard fire in Kent State Ohio! How could this possibly happen? Anyone?? What of Neil Youngs song, " Ohio", as in 4 dead in Ohio! Could someone post it? Or the famous sad photo of the girl student reacting to it??

1942 the US Fleet turns back the IJN fleet in the Coral Sea how did this help. Australia?? Who won this Naval Battle??

1863 the Battle of Chancillorsville happens how did Stonewall Jackson do?? Was the Union lead at this time by bad officers? Anyone?

Any other events?
Regards,
MD


BTW Great debate on the Labor Movement, by all means continue!?

Also we mentioned Pete Seegar in today's events, sadly the Great Canadian Folk Singer Gordon Lightfoot passed away yesterday at 84! I remember taking my wife to see a concert of him way back on our 1st date. It must of impressed her we've been together for 35 years. Anyone have any posts or songs they want to put up in honor of Gordon??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 8:01:18 AM
Gordon Lightfoot. Moved it to Yoder's Pub
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 11:33:10 AM
Quote:


1979 Margaret Thatcher becomes the 1st women's leader in Europe, & the longest term for a British Prime minister?! What say you about the Ironlady?? Remember her place in the Falklands War!?? But yet other areas of the British Isles didn't like her? Why? Anyone??



Dave,

I don't have the time to get property into it, but many of the UK's current economic and social problems stem from the policies Thatcher put in place to remedy to the UK's economic and social problems of 1970s and 80s. Reform was required but I remain to be convinced that Thatcher's medicine cured many, if any, of our ills.

The lady was not for turning; well, perhaps had she shown just a little bit of flexibility and compassion as she condemned millions to the unemployment scrapheap we wouldn't be in the half the mess we are now. The country has de-industrialised but the service economy which took its place has stacked up jobs in London and the South East, living little for the rest of us. Right to Buy sold off millions of public housing that, if we had it now, would eliminate our affordable housing crisis. People Macmillan must be turning in their graves when they see the houses they built being rented out for exorbitant rents.

The North Sea oil revenues were spent on tax cuts and unemployment benefits. Profitable state industries were sold at bargain basement prices alongside the lame duck ones. I don't think many of us wanted the state to buy out any more shipyards and car factories; I'm not sure we were particularly keen on selling off our utilities, buses and (later) trains though.

Thatcher has her fans and her detractors. I am in the latter.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 12:52:29 PM
Quote:
Morris, it was indeed a rather chaotic sentence, though it makes sense when parsed. I don’t know how many times I write a sentence that must be written exactly as is, only to find it may not be perfectly clear to others.

Just for the hell of it I’ve tried to rewrite what I thought your sentence said. No insult implied. I came up with:. This is simply what I got out of your self-admitted chaotic comment: “We should honour workers as a backbone of production. But when labour is seen as a replacement for capitalists, or when folks don’t recognize the equal importance of capitalism to a successful economy, socialism in many North American Republics or western democracies becomes less appealing.”

Cheers,
Brian G


Brian, thanks for the translation. It is accurate....though if I were you I would be concerned that you understood that mess at all!

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 6:25:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:


1979 Margaret Thatcher becomes the 1st women's leader in Europe, & the longest term for a British Prime minister?! What say you about the Ironlady?? Remember her place in the Falklands War!?? But yet other areas of the British Isles didn't like her? Why? Anyone??



Dave,

I don't have the time to get property into it, but many of the UK's current economic and social problems stem from the policies Thatcher put in place to remedy to the UK's economic and social problems of 1970s and 80s. Reform was required but I remain to be convinced that Thatcher's medicine cured many, if any, of our ills.

The lady was not for turning; well, perhaps had she shown just a little bit of flexibility and compassion as she condemned millions to the unemployment scrapheap we wouldn't be in the half the mess we are now. The country has de-industrialised but the service economy which took its place has stacked up jobs in London and the South East, living little for the rest of us. Right to Buy sold off millions of public housing that, if we had it now, would eliminate our affordable housing crisis. People Macmillan must be turning in their graves when they see the houses they built being rented out for exorbitant rents.

The North Sea oil revenues were spent on tax cuts and unemployment benefits. Profitable state industries were sold at bargain basement prices alongside the lame duck ones. I don't think many of us wanted the state to buy out any more shipyards and car factories; I'm not sure we were particularly keen on selling off our utilities, buses and (later) trains though.

Thatcher has her fans and her detractors. I am in the latter.

Cheers,

Colin



Hi Colin,

Well it looks as if socially, & economically Margaret Thatcher was left wanting! Hurting the UK in those areas! Something us State siders didn't know!?

Thanks for setting me straight!
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 6:29:48 PM
Quote:
Today May 2, in history!Another last shot at these events,
comments!? Anyone?

2014 (1-24) Pete Seegar the great folk singer passed away at 94! Would anyone want to say a few words on Pete?? Post a song or Two??

1979 Margaret Thatcher becomes the 1st women's leader in Europe, & the longest term for a British Prime minister?! What say you about the Ironlady?? Remember her place in the Falklands War!?? But yet other areas of the British Isles didn't like her? Why?? Thanks Colin! See his post above!

2016 huge fire in Fort MacMurry Alberta 80K were evacuated! Anyone on this dangerous blaze!?? How could it happen, how did they put it out?? What say you?

1970 actually 5-4, 4 students killed by National Guard fire in Kent State Ohio! How could this possibly happen? Anyone?? What of Neil Youngs song, " Ohio", as in 4 dead in Ohio! Could someone post it? Or the famous sad photo of the girl student reacting to it??

1942 the US Fleet turns back the IJN fleet in the Coral Sea how did this help. Australia?? Who won this Naval Battle??

1863 the Battle of Chancillorsville happens how did Stonewall Jackson do?? Was the Union lead at this time by bad officers? Anyone?

Any other events?
Regards,
MD


BTW Great debate on the Labor Movement, by all means continue!?

The Great Canadian Folk Singer Gordon Lightfoot passed away yesterday at 84!

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 8:00:29 PM
Quote:
2016 huge fire in Fort MacMurry Alberta 80K were evacuated! Anyone on this dangerous blaze!?? How could it happen, how did they put it out?? What say you?


Most wildfires occur naturally, perhaps caused by lightning. They are a necessary part of the regeneration of forests. However, climate change can change the conditions in which it is more likely that a wildfire could occur.

So if it is hot and dry and a fuel source and then an ignition source are available, then fires occur. The boreal forest of Canada is clearly a fuel source and the type of tree in those forests is resin heavy. If ignited, they burn well.

There is a lot of open space in northern Alberta and wildfires may cause no damage except to the forest itself. But if an area of human habitation is in the way, then serious property damage can occur. And that is what happened at Fort McMurray which is an urban centre near Alberta's oil fields.

I don't believe that the authorities have confirmed the ignition source but it is believed that it could have been human activity that caused it.

Imagine being in the middle of this:

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/2/2023 9:42:14 PM
Not a big fan of Gordon Lightfoot, though will admit that when he sang within his range he could be moving. I’ll give him “Early Morning Rain” as pretty damned fine writing and singing. But …
Quote:
2014 (1-24) Pete Seegar the great folk singer passed away at 94! Would anyone want to say a few words on Pete?? Post a song or Two??

Different level of music IMHO. Wrote (or co-wrote) a few decent tunes himself. And, given yesterday’s exploration of the Labour Movement (which I hope will continue), some of Seeger’s music might be a treat.

I had been thinking since yesterday about how the labour movement in all its complexity continued through the 20th century. Yesterday, I was thinking of the place of Paul Robeson within the labour movement and ongoing Civil Rights movement in the US. He is not as well known as he should be, because of his generous assessment of Soviet Russia. Son of a slave but highly educated (he earned an LL.B.) and unemployable (he was black). He turned to song and acting, and soon became a spokesman for civil rights and labour activists. I was thinking in particular of his thwarted trip to Vancouver in mid-May 1952. His passport had been stripped from him by the US Government, but a passport was not needed to enter Canada. But he was denied entry, and so offered a concert at the Peace Arch (a park straddling the CA/US border at Blaine, WA) that was attended by some 25,000 (some estimates say 45,000) folks, a majority of them Canadian. They sat in Canada, and he sang standing on the flat bed of a truck in the US, and – because violence was expected from anti-communists – the event was captured on radio and TV. Whether those still exist in archives, I’m not sure.

It began as a labour meeting. US government actions and authorities broadened it to a civil rights venue. And he sang. IIUC, amongst his songs were “I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night”, a great Labour favourite, and Paul’s personal signature song, “Old Man River” a pop music-hall song he made an anthem against inequality.

Then I remembered that we’ve recently lost Harry Belafonte as well. He too was a supporter/guru of the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s. And you mention Pete Seeger. How about Woody Guthrie (and his son Arlo), Cisco Houston?

It might be fun to put together songs that were shared by folks such as this. Labour songs (“I dreamed I saw Joe Hill…”; “If I had a Hammer”; “John Henry”, many others); civil rights songs (“Wasn’t It a Time”; “This Land is Your Land”, hosts of works based on spirituals and religious tunes), or at least to consider person favourites and the place they might have in labour and civil rights development.

Who, e.g., has sung “I dreamed I saw Joe Hill …”, written in the 20s as a poem and set to music some years later. Well … Woody Guthrie, Cisco Houston, Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Arlo Guthrie come to mind. Bob Dylan re-worked it to devastating effect with his “I Dreamed I Saw St Augustine…”. The song strikes a harmony with many linked with the labour/civil rights movements in the US

I’m just touching the tip of an enormous iceberg, and I’m talking largely of NA issues. But I think I’m touching a vital source of progressive, pro-labour pro-civil rights belief in the US.

British folk music is, IIUC, very different. Traditional folk songs are more mythic than historical, IMHO. Labour songs are, IIUC, categorized as Work songs. Here’s a Ewan MacColl/Peggy Seeger song about a work disaster in Canada. And, yes, Peggy Seeger is Pete’s sister, and one of the finest love songs I know (The First Time) was written by Ewan as a wedding song for his bride Peggy. I’ll try to post it after the work song I’m trying to find an original recording of it.
[Read More]

As for “The First Time”, almost any version is wonderful. Can’t make a choice right now.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/3/2023 7:54:20 AM
Quote:
Quote:
2016 huge fire in Fort MacMurry Alberta 80K were evacuated! Anyone on this dangerous blaze!?? How could it happen, how did they put it out?? What say you?


Most wildfires occur naturally, perhaps caused by lightning. They are a necessary part of the regeneration of forests. However, climate change can change the conditions in which it is more likely that a wildfire could occur.

So if it is hot and dry and a fuel source and then an ignition source are available, then fires occur. The boreal forest of Canada is clearly a fuel source and the type of tree in those forests is resin heavy. If ignited, they burn well.

There is a lot of open space in northern Alberta and wildfires may cause no damage except to the forest itself. But if an area of human habitation is in the way, then serious property damage can occur. And that is what happened at Fort McMurray which is an urban centre near Alberta's oil fields.

I don't believe that the authorities have confirmed the ignition source but it is believed that it could have been human activity that caused it.

Imagine being in the middle of this:

[Read More]

Cheers,

George



Hi George,

No way would I want to be any where near a fire like that! How long did it burn for?? How many Forrest fire personnel & firefighters fought it??

Scorcher,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/3/2023 9:43:13 AM
Quote:
Quote:


1979 Margaret Thatcher becomes the 1st women's leader in Europe, & the longest term for a British Prime minister?! What say you about the Ironlady?? Remember her place in the Falklands War!?? But yet other areas of the British Isles didn't like her? Why? Anyone??



Dave,

I don't have the time to get property into it, but many of the UK's current economic and social problems stem from the policies Thatcher put in place to remedy to the UK's economic and social problems of 1970s and 80s. Reform was required but I remain to be convinced that Thatcher's medicine cured many, if any, of our ills.

The lady was not for turning; well, perhaps had she shown just a little bit of flexibility and compassion as she condemned millions to the unemployment scrapheap we wouldn't be in the half the mess we are now. The country has de-industrialised but the service economy which took its place has stacked up jobs in London and the South East, living little for the rest of us. Right to Buy sold off millions of public housing that, if we had it now, would eliminate our affordable housing crisis. People Macmillan must be turning in their graves when they see the houses they built being rented out for exorbitant rents.

The North Sea oil revenues were spent on tax cuts and unemployment benefits. Profitable state industries were sold at bargain basement prices alongside the lame duck ones. I don't think many of us wanted the state to buy out any more shipyards and car factories; I'm not sure we were particularly keen on selling off our utilities, buses and (later) trains though.

Thatcher has her fans and her detractors. I am in the latter.

Cheers,

Colin


I´m very much with Colin here.

For Germans of my generation, she is seen as the woman who tried to sabotage German reunification. Furthermore, records revealed in 2009, of private talks with the then German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, showed how she wanted Eastern Europe to remain in the "Russian sphere of influence". Praised how the Polish government suppressed the Solidarity movement as well as regretting the end of Apartheid in S.Africa. Luckily she was held back by Reagan, Mitterand and even the British Foreign Office. Her Germanophobe stance would play a role in subsequent anti-EU propaganda.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/3/2023 10:33:32 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


1979 Margaret Thatcher becomes the 1st women's leader in Europe, & the longest term for a British Prime minister?! What say you about the Ironlady?? Remember her place in the Falklands War!?? But yet other areas of the British Isles didn't like her? Why? Anyone??



Dave,

I don't have the time to get property into it, but many of the UK's current economic and social problems stem from the policies Thatcher put in place to remedy to the UK's economic and social problems of 1970s and 80s. Reform was required but I remain to be convinced that Thatcher's medicine cured many, if any, of our ills.

The lady was not for turning; well, perhaps had she shown just a little bit of flexibility and compassion as she condemned millions to the unemployment scrapheap we wouldn't be in the half the mess we are now. The country has de-industrialised but the service economy which took its place has stacked up jobs in London and the South East, living little for the rest of us. Right to Buy sold off millions of public housing that, if we had it now, would eliminate our affordable housing crisis. People Macmillan must be turning in their graves when they see the houses they built being rented out for exorbitant rents.

The North Sea oil revenues were spent on tax cuts and unemployment benefits. Profitable state industries were sold at bargain basement prices alongside the lame duck ones. I don't think many of us wanted the state to buy out any more shipyards and car factories; I'm not sure we were particularly keen on selling off our utilities, buses and (later) trains though.

Thatcher has her fans and her detractors. I am in the latter.

Cheers,

Colin


I´m very much with Colin here.

For Germans of my generation, she is seen as the woman who tried to sabotage German reunification. Records revealed in 2009 showed how she wanted Eastern Europe to remain in the "Russian sphere of influence". Luckily she was held back by Reagan, Mitterand and even the British Foreign Office. Her Germanophobe stance would play a role in subsequent anti-EU propaganda.

Trevor




Hi Trevor, & Colin,

I see where you guys would object to Margaret Thatcher, she was left wanting in her treatment of your countrymen!? Just curious which British Prime Minister did meet most with your approval, & why??

Thanks,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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