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Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/19/2023 11:27:46 PM
Dave: Quote:
1536 Ann Boleyn, wife of Henry VIII, is beheaded for Adultry! Why wasn't King Henry? He committed Adultery even more!? Is this a double standard? Anyone?

Forget the adultery nonsense. Forget trying to equate the behaviour of Anne and Henry. Anne was also accused of incest, don’t forget. I’d suggest that should also be ignored. Anne died on a charge of treason.

Her single job as Queen was to bear male children by Henry; her job was to produce “an heir and a spare” to continue the Tudor line. Any sexual intimacy with other men threatened that job. To take the chance of becoming pregnant by another man was a challenge to the monarch and the continuation of his house. That is an act of treason.

Keep in mind too that Anne was an intelligent woman active in the most challenging issues of the day. These were largely religious, even before Henry broke with Rome in order to annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. Henry was arguing that as God’s anointed he could speak for the true faith with just as much authority as the Popes did. His church would be basically indistinguishable from the Roman faith for years after his death. Anne, on the other hand, was a more radical protestant. As Henry rolled up the wealth of the Abbeys and Nunneries, largely under the direction of Archbishop Cramner, Anne and Cramner came to figurative blows over how that wealth should be used. Cramner saw her ideas as a threat both to the rebuilding of the Tudor treasury and to that portion of the wealth that he believed should come to him for his services to the Tudors. There is at least a chance that he manipulated information in such a way that the accusations of adultery and incest could be brought.

I’d love to have had a chance to meet with Anne. I don’t know that she was a nice person, but she was strong, and forthright, and intelligent.

A host of men were charged with adultery with Anne, though most were found not guilty. One such was Sir Thomas Wyatt, a minor poet of the early renaissance period in England. Even with some problems over usage, his poem touching Anne Boleyn captures at least some of the intrigue she radiated. The poem is called “Whoso List to Hunt”. It reads like this:

Whoso list to hunt, I know where is an hind,
But as for me, hélas, I may no more.
The vain travail hath wearied me so sore,
I am of them that farthest cometh behind.
Yet may I by no means my wearied mind
Draw from the deer, but as she fleeth afore
Fainting I follow. I leave off therefore,
Sithens in a net I seek to hold the wind.
Who list her hunt, I put him out of doubt,
As well as I may spend his time in vain.
And graven with diamonds in letters plain
There is written, her fair neck round about:
Noli me tangere, for Caesar's I am,
And wild for to hold, though I seem tame.

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/20/2023 8:05:57 AM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for dipping back into Renaissance history, why you could do a complete English poetry class on this one poem (sonnet) about rejected love, by Sir Thomas Wyatt! It kind of radiates with a lot of storylines that will in the future be in many a poem, & song!?

Well done!
Cheers,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/20/2023 8:17:45 AM
Checking May 21, in history a few events are : see below!

1856 Bleeding Kansas is going on what was it about? How does it reflect the comming CW? Anyone?

1542 Hernando de Soto discovered of the Mississippi River dies! What happened to him, & his explorations, Comments?

1927 Charles Lindbergh completes the 1st trans Atlantic crossing! Why would someone kill his son? How did it happen?

1881 Clara Barton founds the Red Cross how many countries have it or simular now?? Why did some belligerents ignore it & sink hospital ships, ect.??

1932 Amilia Earhart is the 1st women to cross the Atlantic! What tragedy later befell her?? Have they found out what truly happened to her, & her ill flight ed plane?? What say you?

1960 Jeffery Damher a serial killer is caught, how did he despose of his victims? What a sick individual!? Anyone??

& tomorrow, 5-22, the following occurred!? Comments??

1849 President Abe Lincoln is granted a patent on a boat lifting device, the only President to do so! What other talents did he have?? Anyone?

1939 Hitler, & Mussolini sign a pact. Who finally broke it?? How can these guys trust each other? & later Stalin, & Hitler? Comments on bad guys, & trust?

1942 Mexico declared war on the Axis Powers!? Did they really contribute much to the WWII war effort?? What say you??

2011 one of the biggest tornados in history destroys Joplin, Missouri killing over 160 people! Do the prairie provinces of Canada get many tornados? Lately there has been more volatile storms than ever before?? Has your region ever had Tornados? & do you believe this is from man messing with his environment, maybe beyond hope of recovery!? What say you??

Plenty to discuss above! Comments, or other new topics?? Anyone?

Regards,
MD


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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/20/2023 2:36:12 PM
Quote:
1942 Mexico declared war on the Axis Powers!? Did they really contribute much to the WWII war effort?? What say you??


Why would Mexico even go to war especially since it was not on the best terms with the US. There was no love lost between the US and Mexico at this time as Mexico had just nationalized its oil industries and that upset US corporations that had interests there.

When Mexico lost a few tankers to u-boats and the Nazi government brushed off a formal letter of protest, the Mexicans decided to declare war.

They contributed resources and manpower to work in war plants and US farms.
And the 201st Mexican Fighter squadron assisted in the liberation of the Philippines.

short video on this fighter group

[Read More]

I did a little digging and Mexico was assisting the allies even before it decided to declare war. Mexico had closed its ports to axis shipping and this upset German investors active in Mexico but they went ahead with the closure.

Mexico produced a lot of iron, chemicals and pharmaceuticals which were contributed to the war effort.

And in one article was a reference to the number of Mexicans who had enlisted in the US armed forces. It is estimated that 15,000 Mexican nationals served in the US forces. They had been promised citizenship in recognition of their service.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/20/2023 2:45:24 PM
https://www.britannica.com/place/Mexico/World-War-II-1941-45#:~:text=Mexico%20became%20an%20active%20belligerent,support%20the%20Allies%20as%20well.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2023 12:49:36 PM
[Read More]

Thanks, OP
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2023 3:04:18 PM
Quote:
1542 Hernando de Soto discovered of the Mississippi River dies! What happened to him, & his explorations, Comments?


I wonder which Spanish explorer was the most violent and exploitative. De Soto must rank up there. Even before taking the leadership of his own explorations, he took part in Central and South American initiatives seeking gold and inflicting harm upon indigenous populations. De Soto was present at the fall of the Incan Empire in Peru.

When he landed in Florida with his violent army group he roamed about and either lived with indigenous groups while eating all their food or he fought with them.

While roaming about he came across the mouth of the Mississippi. I'm pretty sure that the indigenous people already knew it was there. Apparently, Spain considered his exploits in North America to be a failure. He was supposed to replicate the destruction of the Incan Empire, to take the riches of a wealthy tribe and establish a Spanish settlement. But he could not find a tribe with the same type of wealth as the Inca.

However he did survey and map a good deal of the coast from Florida to points westward. His men provided a lot of information on where they had been and the troubles that they had encountered and of the various indigenous groups that they had met.

And then he got sick and died on this day. His men weighed down his body and committed him to the Mississippi. They built rafts and drifted down the Mississippi before making their way to Mexico where Spain was already established.

[Read More]

I hate to be cynical but the Spanish seemed like particularly violent imperialists. Were the British, French and Dutch less so?

Cheers,

George
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2522
Joined: 2020
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2023 6:20:34 PM
And De Soto even had a car named after him we were proud of him probably just till recently, if I had to guess the Spanish, they were keen to bring their missionaries with them Christianity at the edge of a sword, I often wonder what bible the Spanish colonists were reading.

vpatrick
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nuts
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2023 6:50:17 PM
5-22, the following occurred!? Comments??

1849 President Abe Lincoln is granted a patent on a boat lifting device, the only President to do so! What other talents did he have?? Anyone?

1939 Hitler, & Mussolini sign a pact. Who finally broke it?? How can these guys trust each other? & later Stalin, & Hitler? Comments on bad guys, & trust?

1942 Mexico declared war on the Axis Powers!? Did they really contribute much to the WWII war effort?? What say you?? Thanks George on the reply!!

2011 one of the biggest tornados in history destroys Joplin, Missouri killing over 160 people! Do the prairie provinces of Canada get many tornados? Lately there has been more volatile storms than ever before?? Has your region ever had Tornados? & do you believe this is from man messing with his environment, maybe beyond hope of recovery!? What say you??

Comments, or other new topics?? Anyone?

Regards,
MD

BTW George didn't know about the Mexican Fighter group!
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2023 7:10:53 PM
Quote:
BTW George didn't know about the Mexican Fighter group!
----------------------------------


Neither did I until I started poking about some of the information.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2023 7:31:51 PM
Quote:
Do the prairie provinces of Canada get many tornados?


This map indicates the number and strength of confirmed tornadoes in Canada, 1980-2009. Note that they seem to coincide with our population maps. So our scientists think that there have been a lot more of them but they have gone unnoticed as they occurred in the unpopulated areas of the country which is most of it.



As you know MD, tornadoes do hit the Great Lakes area when the weather conditions are right. On May 31, 1985 I was still teaching and I happened to be at a major track meet in Toronto with my athletes. We noticed that the sky to the north had turned a weird greeny-grey colour and we could hear rumbling. I now know that the City of Barrie which is about one hour north of Toronto took a hit with considerable property damage and a couple of deaths.

But the scary part was that the Barrie tornado was one of a line of tornadoes, one of which passed right by my house in the village of Holland Landing. I got home to find that my wife had hustled the kids to the basement when she saw the ominous sky. That tornado removed the roofs from the homes on the south side of our cul-de-sac. My immediate neighbour lost a massive white pine but his house was spared. Not so the next house. It was damaged and I had to navigate around the owner's garage door which had been detached and frisbeed to the centre of the cul-de-sac. I was shocked because we usually don't associate tornadoes with southern Ontario. We should and we now know that there are lots of them. They may not be of the highest strength on the Fujita scale but they are strong enough to do damage.

BTW MD, those tornadoes had already touched down in the upper Michigan peninsula.

Also US sources indicate a 30% increase in the number of tornadoes in the last 30 years. But we have to be careful that we don't assume that climate change has caused this rise.
That 30 year period also coincides with technological advances in Doppler radar and even cell phones so that spotters may record their findings. And as the population grows in certain centres there is a greater likelihood that a tornado could hit a population centre. It is more likely that these tornadoes will be seen then. We are getting better at finding them.

I am not suggesting that climate change is not a contributing factor but we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions.

Cheers,

George

EDIT: This is a New York Times article titled, "Where is Canada Hiding its Tornadoes?". It's a 2023 piece that indicates that Canadian scientists have been trying to gather evidence that tornadoes have hit in greater numbers than have been reported before. And as we may expect, they are finding plenty of evidence. The Times says that Canada has the second greatest number of tornadoes per year in the world next to the US.

[Read More]
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/21/2023 10:01:26 PM
Hi George,

Excellent post on Canada & Tornados, & yes I guess if no one saw the tornado, was there a tornado??

Some scary times for us this past winter! My daughter Megan, & her husband went down the Mississippi Valley camping & narrowly missed several of the terrible destructive storms that hit the various states along the river, & the Gulf!?

Thank heaven for luck!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2023 7:44:36 AM
MD

This map indicates the number and strength of confirmed tornadoes in Canada, 1980-2009. Note that they seem to coincide with our population maps. So our scientists think that there have been a lot more of them but they have gone unnoticed as they occurred in the unpopulated areas of the country which is most of it.



As you know MD, tornadoes do hit the Great Lakes area when the weather conditions are right. On May 31, 1985 I was still teaching and I happened to be at a major track meet in Toronto with my athletes. We noticed that the sky to the north had turned a weird greeny-grey colour and we could hear rumbling. I now know that the City of Barrie which is about one hour north of Toronto took a hit with considerable property damage and a couple of deaths.



George

True, they do hit the Great Lakes area too, but I never knew so many hit Ontario, in your major population belt of Windsor, past Toronto & Lake Ontario, & then along the St. Lawrence River!? Wonder Why? My town of Muskegon, on the big lake has only had 1 in its history because we are protected from the west by sand dunes!?

At least that's what I've been told?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2023 9:12:19 AM
May 22, 1906

Canada had become a Dominion in 1867 but we still relied upon British advice and troops in addition to our own forces for defence.

In 1906 the last garrison of British soldiers departed from Canada. They vacated their base at Esquimalt and Victoria on the Pacific coast. The Royal Navy Establishment at Esquimalt had been created in 1865.

The Canadian Permanent Force, in preparation, had formed a total of 5 artillery batteries to assume the duties of the British artillery units. Some of the British soldiers resigned from the British forces and immediately joined the Canadian Permanent Force.

The British army also departed from their base in Halifax at about the same time. The last unit to leave was the Royal Engineers. A formal Changing of the Guard ceremony saw the British march to the docks in Halifax while a band played, "Will ye no come back again".

The RN still maintained an interest in Halifax and gradually moved its vessels away by 1911 following the establishment of the RCN in 1910.

The newly expanded Canadian Army took the place of the British soldiers and again, many British soldiers who had been stationed here for a long time chose to leave British service and join the Canadian army.

The end of an era. Halifax had been established by the British in 1749. There was no sense or feeling that an army of occupation was leaving, such was the relationship with the mother country at that time. I wonder whether there was a feeling of trepidation among the people as the British forces departed.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2023 1:44:03 PM
Hi George,

Congrats on your separation from the mother country, Halifax on the Atlantic, & Esquimalt, on the Pacific had to be hard ports for the RN to give up!? They can still use them, right??

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2023 1:59:42 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

Congrats on your separation from the mother country, Halifax on the Atlantic, & Sequim alt on the Pacific had to be hard ports for the RN to give up!? They can still use them, right??

Regards,
MD



It depends upon what you mean by separation, MD. It was only 1906 and Canada and the other Dominions of the Empire did not yet have control over their foreign policy. We still relied upon British representation in other countries. It would not be until the Statute of Westminster was passed by the British Parliament in 1931 that the Dominions were given that authority.


The Canadian Forces Bases at Esquimalt and at Halifax are just that, Canadian. Esquimalt is home to the RCN naval fleet Pacific and Halifax hosts the naval fleet Atlantic.

The HMC Halifax Dockyard does have berths and services available for Canadian warships and the vessels of other nations that choose to visit. That would include RN vessels.

But this port is home to the RCN on the east coast.

BTW Dave. Why did you use the name Sequim? I thought that that was in Washington State.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2023 7:49:39 PM
Hi George,

Not sure but I think maybe some one hacked into my computer? I typed in the city of Esquimalt, & it came out Sequim alt? Check out my original post on it, it is correct!?

Go figure?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/22/2023 9:18:03 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

Not sure but I think maybe some one hacked into my computer? I typed in the city of Esquimalt, & it came out Sequim alt? Check out my original post on it, it is correct!?

Go figure?
MD



Ok, Md. I see what happened. You were typing Esquimalt. But there was no "E" and the "m" and the "alt" part got separated. All I saw was Sequim which is a real town in Washington state. No big deal. I read it incorrectly.

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2023 6:54:09 AM
Guys,

On 5-23. In World history, feel free to comment on any new or old event!? Comments??

1618 the 30 years war begins, what's the scoop?? Who was involved? Did it even last 30 years? Comments, Anyone?

1915 Italy enters WWI on the side of the Allies! Why did they change sides in WWII? What say you??

1701 English, Pirate Captain Kidd killed in London! What led to his demise?? What say you??

1934 Bonnie, '& Clyde are shot down by the Police! Why did a good deal of law abiding citizens support them?? Comments anyone??

1951 Tibet is annexed by China! Is Tibet independent today?? How did this happen!? What do you think of the Dalai Lama?? Would you have a beer with him?

Comments, & Regards,
MD



----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2023 7:23:27 AM
Quote:
1915 Italy enters WWI on the side of the Allies! Why did they change sides in WWII? What say you??


Italy was actually in an alliance to support Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire before WW1 began. But Italian King Victor Emmanuel III didn't really want to go to war and he felt that actions taken by A-H and by Germany were offensive in nature. He felt that the pact that he had with the two nations was for defensive purposes only.

But Italy made a side deal with Britain and France to come to their aid. In exchange, Italy would scoop up territory that had been part of the A-H and Ottoman Empire (Trieste and the Tyrol, I think) The allies wanted to be assured that Italy would not support Germany or Austria during the war. However, there was resentment because Britain and France had to send military support to Italy which struggled during the war effort. During negotiations for the Treaty of Versailles, Italy left the table angrily when it realized that the allies were not going to cede the territories that it coveted.

By the time WWII came along, the Italian government was controlled by Mussolini who fancied himself as the man who would rebuild the Roman Empire. He had visions of creating a great colonial empire hence his forays into Africa. The King was still the monarch with influence, and he did not wish to enter the second world war but Mussolini managed to convince the King that the time was right to support the winning side, Germany. France had fallen and it looked as though Britain was next. The King eventually agreed.

Italy felt that with the German victory and with Italy as an ally, that Italy's objectives to gain land in the north and to expand its Empire in Africa would be furthered.

I have always wondered why Hitler supported Mussolini other than being infatuated with him. The Italian force and war effort proved to be a burden for Germany.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2023 12:29:10 PM
Quote:

1915 Italy enters WWI on the side of the Allies! Why did they change sides in WWII? What say you??

Comments, & Regards,
MD


If I recall correctly, economic and military opportunities as well as internal Italian political support derived from allying with the "allies" of Great Britain and France rather than Germany and the arch-enemy of Italy, the Austro-Hungarian Empire (AHE). Fighting against the AHE provided an opportunity for Italy to liberate Italian speaking towns and citizens of from the areas of Trento-Bassano in the southern Dolomites mountains as it begins to fall toward the great Po Valley to Trieste on the Adriatic, back up north of Udine, and back west to Livigno encompassing again the Dolomite mountains thus providing that natural Alp barrier between the two hostile nations.

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2023 3:11:02 PM
Quote:
Quote:

1915 Italy enters WWI on the side of the Allies! Why did they change sides in WWII? What say you??

Comments, & Regards,
MD


If I recall correctly, economic and military opportunities as well as internal Italian political support derived from allying with the "allies" of Great Britain and France rather than Germany and the arch-enemy of Italy, the Austro-Hungarian Empire (AHE). Fighting against the AHE provided an opportunity for Italy to liberate Italian speaking towns and citizens of from the areas of Trento-Bassano in the southern Dolomites mountains as it begins to fall toward the great Po Valley to Trieste on the Adriatic, back up north of Udine, and back west to Livigno encompassing again the Dolomite mountains thus providing that natural Alp barrier between the two hostile nations.

Dan


Dave,

Sacro egoisme

That was the phrase used to justify Italian entry into that bloodbath in 1915.

What do we infer from that : damned selfishness or refreshing candour ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/23/2023 4:04:21 PM
So Phil,

Basically what your saying is if we offered the Italians 1 pizza, & the Germans offered 2. They would go.with the Germans!? ☺

Hope they get enough toppings!??
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/24/2023 8:32:13 AM
5-24 in history, any new topics??

1819 Queen Victoria is born, was she the Commonwealth's greatest queen?? What say you?

1856 John Brown leads a raid in Kansas in which 4 slavers were murdered! IYHO was John Brown a savior or terrorist?? What say you??

1883 the Brooklyn Bridge is built, what is your countries greatest engineered bridge?? Anyone??

1938 1st coin operated parking meter in Oklahoma! Have you ever been unfairly ticketed on a parking violation? What recourse did you have? Anyone??

1994 4 men convicted of bombing the world trade center! Horrific events are getting worse as evidenced by recent mass shootings! Can anything be done??

2000 Isreal evacuated Southern Lebanon did this help peace in the Middle east?? Is this area still a powder keg?? Comments?

Regards,
MD

Any other 5-24 world history topics? BTW George is gone for a couple days, perhaps you could pick up the slack & comment? Anyone??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/24/2023 11:46:46 AM
Quote:
So Phil,

Basically what your saying is if we offered the Italians 1 pizza, & the Germans offered 2. They would go.with the Germans!? ☺

Hope they get enough toppings!??
MD



They ended up getting some terrible woppings !

Perhaps I mustn’t use that word, but I couldn’t resist !

Their geo strategic location, and the shape of their nation, makes them very susceptible to being pulled this way and that.

I’m looking forward to going over there in August.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
5/24/2023 1:20:37 PM
Quote:


If I recall correctly, economic and military opportunities as well as internal Italian political support derived from allying with the "allies" of Great Britain and France rather than Germany and the arch-enemy of Italy, the Austro-Hungarian Empire (AHE). Fighting against the AHE provided an opportunity for Italy to liberate Italian speaking towns and citizens of from the areas of Trento-Bassano in the southern Dolomites mountains as it begins to fall toward the great Po Valley to Trieste on the Adriatic, back up north of Udine, and back west to Livigno encompassing again the Dolomite mountains thus providing that natural Alp barrier between the two hostile nations.

Dan


Hi Dan,

The idea of Italian-speaking towns being 'liberated' is an interesting one. Italy had unified in the 1860s, which was essentially the first time the entire peninsula had been under the control of one political entity since the Byzantines lost control to the Lombards. If the Italians taking these areas was a liberation, then should we consider events such as the Anschluss and cession of the Sudetenland to Germany as liberations? I don't think there will be a person on the forum who believes those to be liberations, but the world must be wary of using the ethnographic and linguistic make up of an area as a basis for political and military interventions. There leads to catastrophe.

Cheers,

Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
5/24/2023 3:30:25 PM
Quote:
Quote:


If I recall correctly, economic and military opportunities as well as internal Italian political support derived from allying with the "allies" of Great Britain and France rather than Germany and the arch-enemy of Italy, the Austro-Hungarian Empire (AHE). Fighting against the AHE provided an opportunity for Italy to liberate Italian speaking towns and citizens of from the areas of Trento-Bassano in the southern Dolomites mountains as it begins to fall toward the great Po Valley to Trieste on the Adriatic, back up north of Udine, and back west to Livigno encompassing again the Dolomite mountains thus providing that natural Alp barrier between the two hostile nations.

Dan


Hi Dan,

The idea of Italian-speaking towns being 'liberated' is an interesting one. Italy had unified in the 1860s, which was essentially the first time the entire peninsula had been under the control of one political entity since the Byzantines lost control to the Lombards. If the Italians taking these areas was a liberation, then should we consider events such as the Anschluss and cession of the Sudetenland to Germany as liberations? I don't think there will be a person on the forum who believes those to be liberations, but the world must be wary of using the ethnographic and linguistic make up of an area as a basis for political and military interventions. There leads to catastrophe.

Cheers,

Colin


Hi Colin.

Politics and the rhetoric of never leads to truthful discussions, more so when the ramping up of, our land, our home, vengeance, etc. IMO, one of Italy's overall reasons to flip to the allied cause was influenced on whatever battle cry they could develop to obtain land at the cost of the AHE.

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/24/2023 5:28:59 PM
Freedom from the Austrian yoke had long been a theme in Italian music and folklore.

The opera Nabucco by Guiseppe Verdi, premiered more than seventy years before WW1, was regarded as quite seditious by Austrians because the well known “ Slaves’ Chorus “ was interpreted as a call to arms and an inspiration to break away from Hapsburg rule.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/25/2023 9:20:40 AM
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So Phil,

Basically what your saying is if we offered the Italians 1 pizza, & the Germans offered 2. They would go.with the Germans!? ☺

Hope they get enough toppings!??
MD



They ended up getting some terrible woppings !

Perhaps I mustn’t use that word, but I couldn’t resist !

Their geo strategic location, and the shape of their nation, makes them very susceptible to being pulled this way and that.

I’m looking forward to going over there in August.

Regards, Phil



That's great Phil,

Spending some time in Rome? One of the centers for World History! Hope you can send us reports on the sights!?

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/26/2023 7:35:13 AM
Guys,

5-27 in history! The following, any new posts??

1660 the Treaty of Copenhagen brings Scandinavia closer together? Or does it??

1703 St Petersburg, in Russia is founded! What made it such a important city?? Comments??

1933 Walt Disney releases the children's story, Three Little Pigs! What's the problem going on with Disney World & the state government of Florida?? Anyone?

1941 the RN sinks the German Battleship Bismarck! Was the German emphasis on Battleships a mistake?? What say you??

2000 Canadian great hockey player, Maurice Rocket Richard who won 8 Stanley Cups with Montreal passes away! What made him so great in the NHL??

Any new topics?
Have a great Memorial Day!
Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
5/26/2023 10:13:01 AM
Concerning Disney Corp. and Florida, the Florida legislature wrote a law limiting discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity to school children K-3rd Grade. Disney decided to take sides and misrepresented, as many others have done, the law. To this very day, if you GOOGLE the matter they misleadingly state it was a law to limit discussion of those things in Florida schools...they never mention that it limits it in grades considered age inappropriate. So, Florida, upset that Disney chose to get involved and misleads about the actual law, is taking action to remove certain advantages Disney has ....it has been allowed to govern itself and it`s park as like it`s own fiefdom and that is being stripped away.

We had similar problems here in Georgia with Coca Cola taking a side on an issue that is constantly lied about..the Georgia Voting Laws. MLB took the All-star Game out of Georgia and gave it to Denver over a now-proven false claim that it is Jim Crow 2.0 and "suppresses the black vote." We got record voting numbers..and record black votes under that law. Coke agreed with the false premise. So, MLB took the game from Atlanta, a majority black city, mostly harming the wallets of small mom and pop vendors...who are mostly black...and gave it to an overwhelmingly white city, Denver, that made a lot of money for mostly white vendors and citizens. Really smart!

Now a days, I don`t buy Cokes, and I check out every ice tea product, can of lemonade, or other soft drink, to see if it is a product of Coca Cola...and if it is, I pass on it.

That`s kinda the situation with Disney and Florida.

About the Bismark...isn`t it a great irony that a great battleship of the era....a time that was becoming the era of naval air power and not the battleship, was mortally wounded, as it turned out, by naval air power in the form of a British Swordfish from the Arc Royal.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/26/2023 11:56:44 AM
Morris, is it not true then that the teaching and discussion of sexual identity and sexual orientation is banned in all grades (K through 12) in Florida's public education system, unless the topic is taught in a specific course approved by the Dept. of Education and giving the option to parents to pull their kids from the course?

The reports affirming what I have just said were published only one month ago.

As well it is my understanding that no school in Florida is compelled to teach any human sexuality course at all. The Physical and Health Education curriculum does call for a "comprehensive health education" course. As a person who has taught this part of the PHE curriculum throughout my career, I find it very strange that any school in Florida has the option not to teach this material.

Cheers,

George
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
5/26/2023 2:25:42 PM
Hello George. In answering your question I did a little research. What I gave as a representation of the law at the time Disney got involved was correct...except I said it applied to K-3rd grade...it actually applied to pre-K through 3rd grade.

I found an article posted by ABC dated April19 of this year that said the bill, signed into law March of 2022, had been amended by the Florida Board Of Education to extend the law to 4 through 12 but is not an outright ban...but that the instruction can include sexual orientation or gender if it is in accord with the current state school curriculum, and parents can opt out their children if they so choose. Now, this was taking place about the time I was planning a funeral and such..and so I didn`t pay attention to much news. I did not know that it had been extended with conditions by the State School Board.

The ABC "News" site also continued the dishonest practice of calling it the "Don`t Say Gay " bill, which is the term used by critics...it is not the name of the legislation. Impartial news organizations should not use partisan terms for such articles. The headline of the ABC piece says, "So-called 'Don`t Say Gay' rules expanded through 12th grade in Florida."

The bill has an HR-numeric identity...but it is officially "Parental Rights in Education Law" yet alleged news outlets still use the term critics use.

Respects, Morris


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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/26/2023 9:29:46 PM
26 May 1703. Samuel Pepys died, age 70. He is best known now for his Diary, which he kept almost daily from 1660 to 1969 while he worked as a civilian at the Board of Admiralty, witnessing (often first-hand, or in was which involved him directly) major events of the time. He was a minor official on the flotilla which brought Charles II back from his exile to his restoration and coronation. Within his ability as an official of the Board of Admiralty, he improved the lot of sailors (at least seeing they were paid for the service) and sought out misuse of naval funds, particularly during the second Anglo-Dutch War of 1665. Also in 1665, he remained in London, acting as legal representative for a host of his “betters” through the worst months of the Plague. The next year, 1666, he personally carried one of the first notifications of the Great Fire to King Charles and his brother, the Duke of York. Pepys’ reputation was by this time sufficiently well-known that it is said he was admitted to speak to the King and Duke while they ate their private breakfast. Pepys acted as personal liaison between His Majesty and the Lord Mayor of London regarding strategies for halting the spread of the fire.

Pepys ended his diary because he feared writing it late into the night (in cypher) was causing painful eye issues which might lead to blindness. His career with the Navy lasted a further 20 years. The Duke of York (Charles II’s younger brother, destined to be James III, was appointed Lord High Admiral of the Navy – also known as First Sea Lord – after the Restoration, and Pepys made a willing commitment to James and his position. When James was driven from England by the Glorious Revolution of 1688 for his religion (he was an avowed Roman Catholic) and certain actions he introduced to ease the restrictions on Roman Catholic potential court officials – he reigned for only four years, from 1685-1689 – Pepys fell from favour. He faced a couple of trials, but was never convicted of any crime. But he withdrew from public service and the public eye, living a somewhat sheltered life for the final quarter century of his life.

Nonetheless, is his life and his death worth noting as a date in history? My short, pot-boiled bio doesn’t do the man justice, of course. But I would argue that Pepys offers students of history a unique look at a man living at a major turning point of English history. Pepys was born in 1623. He had cheered at the execution of Charles I in 1649, shouting out “Thus perish all tyrants!” His wife was thought to be a dissenter (vaguely I remember her as having Huguenot links (might be wrong!), which could easily have cost him his position at the Board. His personal patron and cousin, the Earl of Sandwich, had also had Republican leanings, so Pepys also worried about the strength of his appointment. He was from a family with decent social status but the inability to maintain certain class values. Pepys was well educated, but not socially well placed in 1660.

All of this weighed on him as he made a name for himself, because he believed any number of his past actions might destroy his future. I find that one of the qualities I like about the man. He was too honest to pretend those issues didn’t exist, which IMHO places his as everyman in the challenges of his days. Ultimately, of course, there was an attempt to destroy him and cast him out, but it was not for his youthful commentary but for his continued service to James III.

Sam Pepys is one of those historic characters who, for me, remain rich and full and human centuries after their death. Ben Franklin has the same impact on me; so does Dr Sam Johnson. Their writings, speeches and biographies make their existence sound and ongoing. ‘Nuff said.

Cheers
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/27/2023 7:40:13 AM
Hi Brian,

Nice post on Samuel Pepys, its good that sometimes an "everyman sideline player" in history gets some kudos! He must of kept his diary post mortem, as you stated he kept it from 1660 to 1969!? ☺ Living to past age 70 was quite an accomplishment in itself back then! I believe the average life span was much less than that?? Anyone on how long the average person lived in the 1600's??

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
5/27/2023 8:48:30 AM

Again, 5-27 in history! The following were not yet commented on? Anyone?

1660 the Treaty of Copenhagen brings Scandinavia closer together? Or does it??

1703 St Petersburg, in Russia is founded! What made it such a important city?? Comments??

1941 the RN sinks the German Battleship Bismarck! Was the German emphasis on Battleships a mistake?? What say you??

2000 Canadian great hockey player, Maurice Rocket Richard who won 8 Stanley Cups with Montreal passes away! What made him so great in the NHL??

Least we forget Memorial Day!

Any new topics?
Enjoy the holiday weekend!
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
5/27/2023 10:51:41 AM
On May 27, 1813

US forces under Gen. Dearborn were transported from Sacket's Harbor on the east end of Lake Ontario to attack British, colonial and First Nations' forces at Fort George which guarded the mouth of the Niagara River from the west side as its waters enter Lake Ontario.

Henry Dearborn had written in his plans for 1813 that the US needed to ,"take York; from there proceed to Niagara and attack Fort George by land and water." York had been taken in April.

American Commodore Chauncey had agreed to assist in this case and the mission was approved in Washington. Chauncey's small squadron and the dozens of small barges and skiffs were used to make an amphibious landing. The British garrison numbered about 1200 men including colonial and FN troops. I have seen estimates indicating that the US force was between 5000 and 8000 men but probably closer to 5,000.

The battle began early in the morning with a naval bombardment of the Fort. Most of the interior buildings were destroyed and soldiers, women and children sought cover behind the foundations of some of the buildings.

British commander Major-General Vincent knew that he could not guard all the possible landing places. He chose to deploy most of his troops near the river and that was the wrong guess. The Americans landed on the lake shore. Their landing was initially cloaked by fog so Vincent's confusion over their choice of landing place was understandable. Vincent scrambled to send troops there and the Glengarry Light Infantry Fencibles actually charged with bayonets.

The commander of the initial landing forces was Colonel Winfield Scott and he took a bit of a bath as he dodged a bayonet thrust by one of the British soldiers.

But there were insufficient numbers to stop the Americans and Major-General Vincent eventually ordered all guns to be spiked and all troops to retreat south along the river road to Queenston. The Americans were in charge of the fort and effectively the Niagara Peninsula.

But Dearborn did not quickly dispatch troops to find the British and to cut them off. They had no horses to haul artillery and this slowed their progress. However, Dearborn erred in losing contact with the British. British troops already stationed at Queenston and Fort Erie joined with Vincent's army. They all then headed NW to the western most tip of Lake Ontario and collected at Burlington Heights.

In the aftermath, Henry Dearborn would submit his resignation. Col. Winfield Scott proved himself to be one of the most capable of US officers. He would eventually be promoted to Major-General. Not only did he have to go for a swim during this battle but he also broke his collar bone as his troops approached the abandoned fort. Winfield Scott would go on to greater glory although he was severely wounded at the Battle of Lundy's Lane in July of 1814 in which the Americans distinguished themselves.

So this was an American victory but often assessed as an opportunity lost.

Cheers,

George

EDIT: I should have mentioned that when British Commodore James Yeo and the overall commander George Prévost noticed that the US squadron was not in Sacket's Harbor on May 27, they organized a raid on the US base to go in on May 29. It was a large raid with over 800 men but it was repulsed. But the US forces in the harbor feared a British victory and so they set fire to storehouses and to the new ship under construction.

As mentioned above, the US squadron was supporting the attack on Fort George. When Chauncey got word of the British attack at Sacket's Harbor, he quickly sailed back and determined to stay in port until his new warship was complete.

This meant that the British squadron and the Provincial Marine (supply) could operate in the west end of Lake Ontario. This allowed them to bring supplies and reinforcements to Maj. Gen. Vincent's force gathered at Burlington Heights. This contributed to the two American defeats at Stony Creek and Beaver Dams.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/27/2023 9:05:51 PM
Quote:
[Pepys] must of kept his diary post mortem, as you stated he kept it from 1660 to 1969!? ☺ Living to past age 70 was quite an accomplishment in itself back then! I believe the average life span was much less than that?? Anyone on how long the average person lived in the 1600's??

Would you put that down to a small slip of the fingers? Please?

As to ages and average life span, I don’t know that it would be easy to determine what a natural life span might be. It would take some time visiting cemeteries or (better still) parish church records to get an idea. Even then, the average age would not reflect the average life span of those who survived childhood. Towards the bottom of the list below, for example, is Queen Anne, who lived to only 49, the lowest of all the ages in the list. Anne was pregnant 18 times in 16 years. Only five resulted in live births. Only one of these survived infancy; he died at 11.

Even with parish records, there will be some questions of accuracy. (A side note: my mother, born in Edmonton, Alberta, in the last century, has only an assigned birth date. The parish hall where her birth was registered burned down before birth records were included in provincial databases. Depositions from her surviving siblings indicate she was born in either 1911 or 1912.) It would take a much better scholar than I to assess the accuracy of parish records, or the ages at which births became “official” (which was probably at baptism, but I don’t know!).

At any rate, here’s a list of folks stretching from 1340-1820, a span of 480 years. All are well-known, and all probably lived a life that saw them better fed and better housed than the majority of English or British:
John of Gaunt 1340-1399 58
Geoffrey Chaucer 1343?-1400 c. 57
Henry VIII 1491-1547 56
Catherine of Aragon 1485-1536 50
Elizabeth I 1533-1603 64
Oliver Cromwell 1599-1658 59
John Milton 1608-1674 66
James Stuart 1688-1766 77
Queen Anne 1665-1714 49
Charles Stuart 1720-1788 68
George III 1738-1820 81

Sure, they don’t reflect possible ages of commoners of various sorts; I chose them because for the most part their birth- and death-dates are known. They seem to confirm your comment that living to 70 was an accomplishment in itself. What I don’t know is whether the list’s average would be vastly different from the life of commoners. I assume that commoners could live closer to catastrophe through things like crop failure or weather disturbance. But I also believe any woman of any class could face what Queen Anne did, and see her life shortened (as Queen Anne’s may possibly have been) by the very demands of childbirth.

I’m talking a 500 year span here, so generalizations should be taken with skepticism. But although the landsmen of 1350 probably had a dull, basic diet, I sense it was hale enough in times of plenty and quickly scarce in times of drought or other natural calamities (including plague). “Higher” classes of folks had more variety in diet, and perhaps glutted themselves as a social statement, so that in times of need they may not face hunger or need as quickly. These are simply things I consider when thinking about differences in life expectancy through the ages.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6510
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
5/28/2023 12:21:43 AM
The huge rates of infant mortality must have drastically reduced life expectancy, and surely this creates misleading impressions of how long a person might live after the survival of those very dangerous early years.


Edward the Third comes to mind.

I’m going to google him and find out what his lifespan was.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
5/28/2023 3:27:48 AM
Quote:
Quote:


If I recall correctly, economic and military opportunities as well as internal Italian political support derived from allying with the "allies" of Great Britain and France rather than Germany and the arch-enemy of Italy, the Austro-Hungarian Empire (AHE). Fighting against the AHE provided an opportunity for Italy to liberate Italian speaking towns and citizens of from the areas of Trento-Bassano in the southern Dolomites mountains as it begins to fall toward the great Po Valley to Trieste on the Adriatic, back up north of Udine, and back west to Livigno encompassing again the Dolomite mountains thus providing that natural Alp barrier between the two hostile nations.

Dan


Hi Dan,

The idea of Italian-speaking towns being 'liberated' is an interesting one. Italy had unified in the 1860s, which was essentially the first time the entire peninsula had been under the control of one political entity since the Byzantines lost control to the Lombards. If the Italians taking these areas was a liberation, then should we consider events such as the Anschluss and cession of the Sudetenland to Germany as liberations? I don't think there will be a person on the forum who believes those to be liberations, but the world must be wary of using the ethnographic and linguistic make up of an area as a basis for political and military interventions. There leads to catastrophe.

Cheers,

Colin


I agree Colin but that was the basis of Wilson´s 14 Points. IMO, it added a dangerous ethnicity to the concept of the nation state.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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