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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 8:38:58 AM
Hi George,

The US had the same problem with 2 P-38 pilots saying they both shot Yamamoto down over the Solomons!? One of them was from Detroit Michigan!

It had to be him!! ☺
Right?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 8:41:08 AM
Moved from previous page,

July-18 in history, events were evident! Last shot at Comments anyone??

1453 France wins the last battle of the 100 years war! Who won the war?? Comments??

1763 John Jacob Astor was born! What's he noted for?? What say you??

1862 Abraham Lincoln passes a bill that leads to the Emancipation Proclamation!? Abe was a great president!? Where would you rate him??

1918 the Carpathian is sunk by a U-boat, this ship rescued Titanic survivors comments on it? Anyone??

1918 Russian Tsar Nicolas II & Family killed by the Communists! Why??

1944, General Erwin Rommel almost killed by the RAF! What happened? Anyone??

1945 Big 3 meet at Potsdam! What resulted?? Comments anyone??

1998 the UN forms an international criminal court, is it effective!?? What say you??

Regards,
MD

BTW great discussion on operation Sea Lion, & what could have happened? Please continue!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 8:45:58 AM
Today 7-20 A few of events of note occurred!? Perhaps you have some others??

1877 the Russo Turkish War is in full swing! Who won?? Anyone?

1917 Yugoslavia becomes a nation, how long did this last? Did it eventually break up?? Anyone??

1944 July plot of the assassination attempt on Hitler! How many times did Adolph dodge the bullet?? Anyone?

1969 of course the big event was the 1st manned landing on the moon! Most people remember where they were, & their thought!? Anyone? Also a few think it was a hoax!? What say you??

Regards,
MD

BTW how hot has your summer been?? Our planet's weather is definitely changing! Comments??

Also from today in Canadian history, the following! Comments MHO!???

1773 the Scots arrived big time in Nova Scotia! Comments??

1871 British Columbia joins the Canadian Confederation!!?? How & why?

1944 Canadian troops taking Important strategic hills in Normandy, great soldiering!? Any details on these victories??

2005 Canada becomes the 4th country to legalize same sex marriages!? Is Canada overall a liberal country?? What say you??

Lot's to discuss!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 2:25:24 PM
Quote:
On this day in 1925, a 36-year-old ex-convict published the first volume of a two-volume political biogaphy. Though largely incomprehensible, it would become so successful that its author – who had been decorated for valour and convicted of treason by a country that was not his country of birth – became independently wealthy on the royalties based on sales over the next 20 years. The book was, of course, Mein Kampf.

I don’t know about availability in other places, but I’m glad to note that it is still available for purchase in Canadian bookstores, from at least one publisher in at least one format. It is – IMHO – a recount of a repulsive mind’s wanderings, and there are sections which are seductive to the careless reader. But while it doesn’t need to be read, it needs to be available in order to be assessed. One hopes that a large majority will continue to reject its arguments; to me, rejecting the arguments on hearsay touches on rejecting the work without knowing its content.

Cheers
Brian G



Hi Brian,

You can purchase it on E books.com, also order it on Amazon.com, even get it at Walmart! So it's not banned yet by the book banning crowd??

Regards,
MD

BTW Speaking of Hitler, he ordered that almost all German Bombers had only 2 engines, this way the Luftwaffe would have over twice as many bombers! But hardly any 4 engine long range bombers? Did this hurt the German Air arm?? What say you??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 3:41:05 PM
Quote:
1944 Canadian troops taking Important strategic hills in Normandy, great soldiering!? Any details on these victories??


If we are talking about July 20, then the time period encompasses efforts by the British and Canadians to break out from Caen and to push the Germans from Verrières Ridge. And at the same time, the Americans were supposed to break out of their positions in Operation Cobra.

Operation Goodwood was also supposed to occupy as much of the German armour as possible and to ""write it down to such an extent that it is of no further value to the Germans", as Monty put it. By the time that Goodwood began, Monty had described it as a limited attack rather than a full on breakout. He anticipated that by holding the Germans in place, that the Americans would be able to break out.

The Canadian part of the operation was called Atlantic and in that phase the Canadians were supposed to seize Colombelles and the factory district on the outskirts of Caen and then to attack Verrières Ridge.

Without going into a lot of detail, the CDN regiment, the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders were able to seize St. André-sur-Orne which was just below the ridge upon which the Germans had concentrated tanks, artillery and Nebelwerfers in anticipation of an assault. The ridge wasn't all that high. I have seen it and even though it is not high, it does dominate the approach to it. Possession gave the Germans a good position from which to thwart an attack.

Subsequent assaults on Verrière during Operation Spring on July 21 proved to be bloody and costly for the Canadians and the British positioned just to the east closer to Bourgebus Ridge. Canadian regiments took heavy casualties on that ridge as they were repulsed a number of times before finally securing positions on the ridge. The fighting here was savage and while it was going on the Americans did indeed succeed in making a breakout from their positions during Cobra. It was a great success.

According to a wiki article, allied casualties in the Verrières Ridge portion of Operation Atlantic numbered about 1300. Normandy was a hellish experience for the British, Canadian and Poles partly because of this ridge.

And I must add that Monty was under pressure to move out of the Caen area and he put pressure on his commanders like CDN Gen. Guy Simonds. And I think that Simond's planning and the "asks" that he made of his troops were flawed. Attacks up Verrières Ridge during the next operation called Spring beginning on July 25 were ill conceived and reminiscent of some of the attacks that took place in the early days of the Great War. The Black Watch of Canada were slaughtered as they walked up the wheat covered slope to the top of the ridge.

Of 320 men committed to attack the slope, 300 were killed, wounded or POW. According to historian David O'Keefe, that number comprises 1/5 of the total casualties taken in Op. Spring. So of the 1500 casualties in Op. Spring, 500 were KIA. Disastrous.

Brave men in the Black Watch. They simply walked into a bullet storm and did not waver. Their commander's body was found at the top of the ridge a few days later.

An article by Canadians historian and military veteran David O'Keefe

[Read More]

And a map showing the disposition of British troops near Bourgébus Ridge and the Canadians at Verrières.



Cheers,

George




Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 5:58:52 PM
What a monstrous amount of firepower was lavished in support of relatively small numbers of infantry in these horrible Normandy battles.

Monty liked to speak of his “ colossal cracks” : effectively using metal to save blood.

That photo in the link, George, refers to a thousand artillery pieces being used to support the infantry in its attack against the ridge. This artillery was supported by aerial bombing, and even by naval gunfire in some cases. Tanks could make their contribution too. To make the onslaught more ghastly still, flame was deployed from napalm dropped by aircraft and projected by crocodile tanks. To reflect on the ordeal of the Germans is harrowing.And yet the numbers of riflemen going into the attack were so small : hundreds instead of thousands in these local actions.

I depict impressions of the Normandy fighting in general rather than this action in particular, but this one does stand as an exemplar, a microcosm, of that campaign and its dreadful attributes.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 6:06:31 PM
I wonder how a squadron of B-52s would have helped at Normandy. I've been wayyyyy to close to an Arclight raid. (Or near as damnit if it wasn't official so designated.)
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 8:01:20 PM
Quote:
I wonder how a squadron of B-52s would have helped at Normandy. I've been wayyyyy to close to an Arclight raid. (Or near as damnit if it wasn't official so designated.)


Well, they did use heavy bombers in a tactical role. The bombing of Caen led the powers that be to request heavies after that. And there were unfortunate incidents of the bombing of one's own troops. The Canadians and Poles were bombed by USAF bombers before one operation at considerable loss. The British and Canadians were bombed again by RAF and RCAF bombers. And I am pretty sure that when the US was teeing up Operation Cobra that a good number of soldiers lost their lives in a short bombing incident. I cannot remember whose they were.

Still the army types felt that employment of heavies was worth the risk.

Arthur Harris prepared a report on the bombing of allied troops during Operation Tractable on Aug. 14, 1944. Pretty interesting, I thought. From what he wrote, I am not sure that Bomber Harris was convinced that his heavy bombers were the right plane for the job.

[Read More]

How high is a B-52 when it releases bombs anyway?

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/20/2023 8:09:38 PM
Quote:
What a monstrous amount of firepower was lavished in support of relatively small numbers of infantry in these horrible Normandy battles.

Monty liked to speak of his “ colossal cracks” : effectively using metal to save blood.

That photo in the link, George, refers to a thousand artillery pieces being used to support the infantry in its attack against the ridge. This artillery was supported by aerial bombing, and even by naval gunfire in some cases. Tanks could make their contribution too. To make the onslaught more ghastly still, flame was deployed from napalm dropped by aircraft and projected by crocodile tanks. To reflect on the ordeal of the Germans is harrowing.And yet the numbers of riflemen going into the attack were so small : hundreds instead of thousands in these local actions.

I depict impressions of the Normandy fighting in general rather than this action in particular, but this one does stand as an exemplar, a microcosm, of that campaign and its dreadful attributes.

Regards, Phil


Phil, I think that one of the problems with the British and Canadian attacks on the ridges was a dearth of tanks. The earlier Operation Goodwood had seen the destruction of at least 400 British and Canadian tanks. Goodwood was the largest tank battle in Normandy but it took place on July 18. It did bring the British and Canadians to the foot of Bourgébus and Verrières Ridges

Operation Spring took place on the 25th and one of the problems for the CDN Black Watch was that they went up the slope with no tanks to accompany them. There was a tank squadron held well back of the operation but not committed. So I wonder whether the small unit army actions along the ridges were compromised by a shortage of tanks.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2023 4:17:08 AM
Sorry about my allusion to tanks, George. In my agitation and haste to impart my impression of the Normandy battles, I used sleight of hand and cited this particular action as an exemplar, when the deprivation of the armoured support was to have dire consequences for the Canadian infantry. I was still exercised by the mention of a thousand field pieces being used to support an attack on the ridge : that’s more than Monty deployed in the artillery barrage at Second El Alamein, and that stands as the most famous British barrage of the Second World War.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2023 7:38:48 AM
Quote:
Sorry about my allusion to tanks, George. In my agitation and haste to impart my impression of the Normandy battles, I used sleight of hand and cited this particular action as an exemplar, when the deprivation of the armoured support was to have dire consequences for the Canadian infantry. I was still exercised by the mention of a thousand field pieces being used to support an attack on the ridge : that’s more than Monty deployed in the artillery barrage at Second El Alamein, and that stands as the most famous British barrage of the Second World War.

Regards, Phil


Thanks Phil. Do you happen to know which of the several operations mounted with the objective to seize Falaise employed that number of artillery. Op. Totalize? Tractable?

Thank goodness for British and Canadian artillery. Armour and troop numbers had been greatly depleted in many regiments.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2023 8:12:13 AM
Any more comments on these??

Anyway on 7-20 A few of events of note occurred!? Perhaps you have some others??

1877 the Russo Turkish War is in full swing! Who won?? Anyone?

1917 Yugoslavia becomes a nation, how long did this last? Did it eventually break up?? Anyone??

1944 July plot of the assassination attempt on Hitler! How many times did Adolph dodge the bullet?? Anyone?

1969 of course the big event was the 1st manned landing on the moon! Most people remember where they were, & their thought!? Anyone? Also a few think it was a hoax!? What say you??

& In Canadian history, the following! Comments ?

1773 the Scots arrived big time in Nova Scotia! Comments??

1871 British Columbia joins the Canadian Confederation!!?? How & why? Anyone?

1944 Canadian troops taking Important strategic hills in Normandy, great soldiering!? Any details on these victories??

2005 Canada becomes the 4th country to legalize same sex marriages!? Is Canada overall a liberal country?? What say you??

Today, 7-21 in history, A few more events below?

1861 the 1 st battle of Bull Run, can you say picnic!??

1899 Ernest Hemingway was born! Interesting author, where would you rate him? Why did he commit suicide?? What say you about Ernest & his legacy!?? Comments, anyone??

1925 the courts rule the teaching of Evolution is outlawed!? Do you see the courts even today backing religious minorities, points of view?? Comments?

2011 NASA ends the Shuttle program! Why? & was it a success?? What say you?

Bring it on!?
MD

BTW guys,continue the great discussion on aspects of the Normandy battles!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2023 10:03:39 AM
Here's tomorrows events, I won't have access to the internet until Sunday afternoon!

Checking 7-22 in history here's a few events, did I miss anything? Comments??

1812, the Duke of Wellington defeats the French & 40,000 soldiers! Why did he have Napoleon's number? & what made him a good commander!? What say you about the Duke??

1943 Gen. George S Patton took Solarno in Sicily!? What was the conflict with Monty all about?? Anyone?

1992 drug trafficker Pablo Escobar escapes police! Who do you get your drugs from!???

2011 Terrorists attack Oslo, 77 people are killed!? What was their motive? Anyone??

Pick up the slack, someone?
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2023 11:30:59 AM
Quote:
1943 Gen. George S Patton took Solarno in Sicily!?
Regards,
MD


Hi Dave, do you mean Palermo? July 22, 1943?

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2023 11:59:50 AM
Dan,

Yup! ☺

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2023 12:52:42 PM
Quote:
Dan,

Yup! ☺

MD


Palermo was in Patton's area of responsibility, that it was a major town on the northern portion of Sicily, taking it would isolate any forces west of a line roughly from Palermo in the north south to Agrigento. What little Axis forces remained west of this line could easily be bottled up having nil effect on the remainder of the Sicilian campaign. Taking Palermo brought into play the major route east-to-west on the northern section of the island toward Messina, which, taking Messina meant the Axis were done in Sicily as Monty was coming up the eastern side (Messina's side) of the island while Patton advanced across the northern road as well as expediting the advancement along this route with some very nice amphibious assaults that would pinch the Axis out of Sicily.

Patton versus Monty is truly a distraction of both Generals abilities including the success of their respective troops; nowadays their relationship may have been a big hit in the world of MTV, YouTube, Twitter, etc.

The differences in battle planning, strategic focus, etc., is clearly documented between the US and Great Britain. Misconceptions feed this relationship such as Monty the ever-plodding General looking to stall for time, establish a massive source of logistics (can you blame him?), while Patton the soldier-face slapping, foul mouthed, hell bent for glory at all costs’ General, plays out with some truths and hyperbolic fables, and all the while again diminishing what the two actually accomplished.

Monty defeating the Germans at El Alamein then leading his troops in hard fighting in Sicily, cemented his Generalship, and the same for Patton taking charging in Africa with II Corps then his slicing through west-central & northern coastal Sicily would eventually lead both into France to even more drama.

It would be in France where we would see a near similar scenario, Monty dealing with the brunt of the hard-core SS divisions in Caen, then eventually Patton running amok during Operation Cobra on the western flank of.

If I was Ike, I’d have both in command as well, they were both excellent commanders, their ego’s while driving them to fame, also led each to some inglorious moments.

Dan

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/21/2023 1:11:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Sorry about my allusion to tanks, George. In my agitation and haste to impart my impression of the Normandy battles, I used sleight of hand and cited this particular action as an exemplar, when the deprivation of the armoured support was to have dire consequences for the Canadian infantry. I was still exercised by the mention of a thousand field pieces being used to support an attack on the ridge : that’s more than Monty deployed in the artillery barrage at Second El Alamein, and that stands as the most famous British barrage of the Second World War.

Regards, Phil


Thanks Phil. Do you happen to know which of the several operations mounted with the objective to seize Falaise employed that number of artillery. Op. Totalize? Tractable?

Thank goodness for British and Canadian artillery. Armour and troop numbers had been greatly depleted in many regiments.

Cheers,

George


Hi George,

A wiki search tells me that 726 guns supported Op Totalize.

There is something rather implausible in the caption stating that one thousand field pieces were used in supporting the attack on Verrières Ridge. That would put it on a par with Vimy Ridge in April 1917 !


Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/22/2023 1:41:17 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

A wiki search tells me that 726 guns supported Op Totalize.

There is something rather implausible in the caption stating that one thousand field pieces were used in supporting the attack on Verrières Ridge. That would put it on a par with Vimy Ridge in April 1917 !


Regards, Phil


Thanks Phil, I suppose that the British and Canadians were compelled to use artillery in a big way since their casualties had been heavy since D-day.

I didn't realize that that many guns were used in support. I presume that the 1000 gun bombardment was during Operation Tractable which is the operation in which Falaise was finally seized. There were three major operations (Spring, Totalize, Tractable) mounted by the Canadians before Falaise finally fell.

Tractable began on Aug. 14 and was preceded by a BC bombardment by 782 Halifax and Lancaster bombers. Once again there was short bombing and 400 CDN and Polish soldiers became casualties and were out of the fight. I was unaware of an artillery bombardment during Tractable but given that this battle was finally fought in a more modern style with troops advancing in APC's and tanks in support, it should not be surprising that artillery played a big role.

Those APC's were actually borrowed American M7 howitzers called "Priests". CDN General Simonds ordered the guns to be removed and nine or 10 men could ride forward in battle with some protection. They called them Kangaroos or "defrocked priests".

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/22/2023 8:24:07 PM
On this date in 1793, one of North America's greatest explorers reached the Pacific ocean on a river and overland route. Alexander Mackenzie became the first European to cross North America to the Pacific and his writings, and maps were inspirational to other explorers including Lewis and Clark in their trip in 1804. Note that Mackenzie was a Scot who chose to emigrate to Canada. The Scots were heavily involved in the fur trade.

Mackenzie was a senior officer of the Northwest Fur Trade Company and as such he was seeking new fur trade routes and a route to the Pacific. His first voyage was made in 1789

From his post at Fort Chipewyan he descended several rivers that he initially hoped would lead to the Pacific but it turned northward and he travelled it all the way to the Arctic Ocean. The final river to the Arctic Ocean now bears his name, the Mackenzie river.

The 1793 voyage did lead him to the Pacific but he selected river proved to be too difficult to be a regular fur trade route. That was the Bella Coola , I believe. When Mackenzie arrived at the Pacific he mixed vermillion and grease and wrote an inscription on a large rock before heading back.




Mackenzie's maps and his book Voyages From Montréal were considered required reading and learning by those who followed.

Some call Mackenzie the greatest of all explorers of North America because of the distances that he travelled and the detailed information that he left behind.

Cheers,

George






Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/23/2023 1:49:54 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi George,

A wiki search tells me that 726 guns supported Op Totalize.

There is something rather implausible in the caption stating that one thousand field pieces were used in supporting the attack on Verrières Ridge. That would put it on a par with Vimy Ridge in April 1917 !


Regards, Phil


Thanks Phil, I suppose that the British and Canadians were compelled to use artillery in a big way since their casualties had been heavy since D-day.

I didn't realize that that many guns were used in support. I presume that the 1000 gun bombardment was during Operation Tractable which is the operation in which Falaise was finally seized. There were three major operations (Spring, Totalize, Tractable) mounted by the Canadians before Falaise finally fell.

Tractable began on Aug. 14 and was preceded by a BC bombardment by 782 Halifax and Lancaster bombers. Once again there was short bombing and 400 CDN and Polish soldiers became casualties and were out of the fight. I was unaware of an artillery bombardment during Tractable but given that this battle was finally fought in a more modern style with troops advancing in APC's and tanks in support, it should not be surprising that artillery played a big role.

Those APC's were actually borrowed American M7 howitzers called "Priests". CDN General Simonds ordered the guns to be removed and nine or 10 men could ride forward in battle with some protection. They called them Kangaroos or "defrocked priests".

Cheers,

George


Hi George,

That abortive attack made by the Canadians on 25July must’ve been one of the worst days of the war in terms of loss of life for Canada. Five hundred, roughly, killed in a single morning : that’s approximately half the Dieppe total, am I right ? This is not accurate, it’s rough and ready, but it is a heavy blow, and not accompanied by success. It was probably rather more than the Canadian death toll for D-Day itself.

The great day of WW1 for Canada was when Vimy Ridge was taken on 9 April 1917. Perhaps 2,500 Canadians died that day from eight thousand casualties. A legendary success, though.

I’m troubled by that reference to one thousand guns supporting the Verrieres Ridge attack . A mistake, surely ?

Editing: it’s all very well for me to cite numbers. I lack the technical knowledge.
If the British deployed three thousand guns at the opening of their Third Ypres offensive in mid July 1917, compared with just a few hundred in a Normandy battle exactly twenty seven years later, I need to take into account the technical developments that rendered WW2 firepower more effective. Were the 25 pounders of 1944 so much more efficient, their ammunition so modernised by metallurgical invention, that five hundred could do the work of two thousand guns from 1914-18 ? More mechanisation produced faster delivery of ammunition: metal did the work of flesh and blood to a vastly greater extent. The guns themselves were sometimes self propelled, so artillery was becoming a mobile arm. So very different from the generation earlier.That, combined with aerial bombardment- and in the earlier phase of Normandy fighting even naval support - must have imparted a terrific edge to firepower. At the sharp end, this entailed a few hundred riflemen going into combat in 1944, when their counterparts in 1914-18 would have been deployed in thousands. Less so in 1918 than in 1914, certainly, but the difference was still marked, as was the cost in lives.

Editing again: anxious that I might have overlooked the massacre of Canadians at Hong Kong , Christmas 1941. Killed by the Japanese with allegations that this was done after surrender. I don’t know the number but in the hundreds ?

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/23/2023 8:31:38 AM
Quote:
That abortive attack made by the Canadians on 25July must’ve been one of the worst days of the war in terms of loss of life for Canada. Five hundred, roughly, killed in a single morning : that’s approximately half the Dieppe total, am I right ? This is not accurate, it’s rough and ready, but it is a heavy blow, and not accompanied by success. It was probably rather more than the Canadian death toll for D-Day itself.


Most of those that were killed on July 25 during that poorly planned attack by the Black Watch of Canada advancing up the lower slopes of Verrières Ridge. If I have the dates correct in my head, that would have been during Operation Spring. The German soldiers waiting at the top of the slope could not believe their eyes when they saw the rifle companies advancing through the wheat field in full view of the German guns. I recall reading one account by a German soldier who said that he felt very badly about shooting these men who were walking to their death. I won't go into the failures of command here but I will quote a comment made by one of the Black Watch soldiers as he stood at the jumping off point waiting for the signal to advance. He is purported to have said, "What is this, f...king WWI". Every foot soldier knew that something was very wrong with this plan.

The regiment had to be completely rebuilt as the four rifle companies had experienced a 95% casualty rate.

During the investigation to the debacle, senior officers tried to pin the blame on the 26 year old Major Phil Griffin who led the charge. His body was found at the top of the slope surrounded by several of his men. He followed his orders and despite reservations went ahead with the operation and he was under pressure to do so.

Griffin's last communication ordered the support company not to send reinforcements. "We have too many men trapped here now" were the last words heard from Major Griffin.

Operation Spring, such a disaster that it was called off after one day, was the second most costly day of the war after the Dieppe Raid. The numbers that I have indicate 450 killed and 1100 taken POW on July 25. I believe that the KIA total was lower on D-day.

For those interested, here is an interesting article published in the Canadian Legion magazine, titled, "The Toll of Verrières Ridge".

[Read More]



Re: Hong Kong. I think that the Canadians suffered the same fate that many of their British, Indian and Hong Kong Defence Force brothers suffered at the hands of the Japanese. There were enough instances of the murders of POW to go around in that conflict. Canada had deployed 1950 men to Hong Kong. When the fighting ended on Dec. 25, 1941 the Canadians had seen 290 killed with 493 wounded. The rest including many of the wounded (some were bayonetted to death in their hospital beds) became POW and over the next four years of captivity, 264 would die in Japanese prison camps.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/23/2023 3:44:46 PM
7-23,

Here are some happenings from today in history, comments, or new topics? Anyone??

1885 US Grant, dies at age 63, was he a better general or president? What say you??

1903 Ford Motor Company turns out it's1st car! How will the model T revolutionize transportation?? Did Canada also get these Ford cars??

1945, Marshall Petain is convicted of Treason, & gets life imprisonment!? Any modern day treason going on recently? In any other countries? Anyone??

1952 in Egypt a Coup over throws King Farouk I, & his government!? Any modern day Coups occurring recently!? How can coups be prevented? What say you??


Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/23/2023 3:51:42 PM
Quote:
On this date in 1793, one of North America's greatest explorers reached the Pacific ocean on a river and overland route. Alexander Mackenzie became the first European to cross North America to the Pacific and his writings, and maps were inspirational to other explorers including Lewis and Clark in their trip in 1804. Note that Mackenzie was a Scot who chose to emigrate to Canada. The Scots were heavily involved in the fur trade.

Mackenzie was a senior officer of the Northwest Fur Trade Company and as such he was seeking new fur trade routes and a route to the Pacific. His first voyage was made in 1789

From his post at Fort Chipewyan he descended several rivers that he initially hoped would lead to the Pacific but it turned northward and he travelled it all the way to the Arctic Ocean. The final river to the Arctic Ocean now bears his name, the Mackenzie river.

The 1793 voyage did lead him to the Pacific but he selected river proved to be too difficult to be a regular fur trade route. That was the Bella Coola , I believe. When Mackenzie arrived at the Pacific he mixed vermillion and grease and wrote an inscription on a large rock before heading back.




Mackenzie's maps and his book Voyages From Montréal were considered required reading and learning by those who followed.

Some call Mackenzie the greatest of all explorers of North America because of the distances that he travelled and the detailed information that he left behind.

Cheers,

George








Hi George,

Has that rock been proven to be authentic from Mackenzie's own hand?? A simular historical item was found in California with Sir Francis Drake's name, & date, & it was proven to be a hoax??

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/23/2023 5:52:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:
On this date in 1793, one of North America's greatest explorers reached the Pacific ocean on a river and overland route. Alexander Mackenzie became the first European to cross North America to the Pacific and his writings, and maps were inspirational to other explorers including Lewis and Clark in their trip in 1804. Note that Mackenzie was a Scot who chose to emigrate to Canada. The Scots were heavily involved in the fur trade.

Mackenzie was a senior officer of the Northwest Fur Trade Company and as such he was seeking new fur trade routes and a route to the Pacific. His first voyage was made in 1789

From his post at Fort Chipewyan he descended several rivers that he initially hoped would lead to the Pacific but it turned northward and he travelled it all the way to the Arctic Ocean. The final river to the Arctic Ocean now bears his name, the Mackenzie river.

The 1793 voyage did lead him to the Pacific but he selected river proved to be too difficult to be a regular fur trade route. That was the Bella Coola , I believe. When Mackenzie arrived at the Pacific he mixed vermillion and grease and wrote an inscription on a large rock before heading back.




Mackenzie's maps and his book Voyages From Montréal were considered required reading and learning by those who followed.

Some call Mackenzie the greatest of all explorers of North America because of the distances that he travelled and the detailed information that he left behind.

--

Cheers,

George








Hi George,

Has that rock been proven to be authentic from Mackenzie's own hand?? A simular historical item was found in California with Sir Francis Drake's name, & date, & it was proven to be a hoax??


MD



Yes indeed. The man wrote about it himself and his crew witnessed him drawing it.

Quote:
"I now mixed up some vermilion in
melted grease, and inscribed, in large
characters, on the South-East face
of the rock on which we had slept
last night, this brief memorial
'Alexander Mackenzie, from Canada,
by land, the twenty-second of July,
one thousand seven hundred and
ninety-three' ".
Mackenzie's Voyages, 1801 edition, page 349.
.

When the land was surveyed in 1800 only seven years later, the surveyors found the rock and permanently inscribed the words over the words left by Mackenzie. They found the inscribed rock exactly where Mackenzie said that it was.

EDIT: From what I have read Merriwether Lewis was enamoured of Alexander Mackenzie. He and Clark carried a copy of Mackenzie's book with them on their expedition. As well, Lewis knew of Mackenzie's Rock and it concerned him greatly that the British could claim all of this new territory unless the US moved quickly.

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/24/2023 7:12:09 AM
Hi George,

Concerning Merriwether Lewis there is another big controversy! Shortly after he returned from his famous exploration of the Louisiana Territory. He was found dead, of gun shots! it was either murder or suicide!?

Historians are not certain?? Anyone have anything on this??

Thanks, & regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 7:41:09 AM

Well it's Christmas in July, do you like or dislike that term??

Anyway 7-25 in history,

1814 the US invades Canada, near Niagara Falls, can you imagine no Canadian Falls!?? I always like to stop at Tim Horton's at the edge, & grab a coffee, & get this a "butter tart donut"! ? Go Canadian Falls, eh!!? What happened? What say you??

1868 Wyoming becomes a US territory! Today does it have to much political clout, considering it's mostly unpopulated, as are most of it's neighboring states??

1898 The US invades Puerto Rico!? This can't be the US would never attack a smaller state? Then today in 1952 they become a US territory? Does PR today, want to become a US state in these times?? Comments??

1965 Bob Dylan switches to an electric guitar! Do you approve?? Anyone on how influential BD was to rock!??

2,000 A Concord Jet crashes outside of Paris killing all!? Was this plane type flawed & unsafe!?? What say you??

Any other new topics??

Regards,
MD

BTW concerning the Canadian fire smoke, today we have a high smoke advisory in the state, & concerning the heat wave we will be @10 degrees hotter than normal through the coming weekend! How are these factors playing out in your area? The US south is sizzling? Anyone?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 9:01:47 AM

I will speak to Wyoming..and it`s size and population as a state...and it`s neighbor-states: In many of those western states the US Government owns so much land it is hard to grow populations. Should they therefore be penalized by that same government because they remain relatively small. I will have to look it up, and I will edit this post, but Federal ownership of lands in these Western States is an anchor on growth.

[Edit] In Wyoming the Federal Governemnt owns 46.7 percent of the lands.

Nevada ......80.1 percent
Utah..............63.1 percent
Montana.....29.0 percent
By comparison, the Federal Lands in Michigan are 10 percent.
Respects, Morris



----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 9:17:04 AM


Oh, and July 25 is a lot closer to the actual birth-date of Jesus Christ than December 25....but who wants to roast Chestnuts by an open fire in 96 degree heat and humidity?

I am heartened by the fact that Global Warming is not stated as the cause for the shift to Dec 25th... ----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 11:33:29 AM
Quote:

I will speak to Wyoming..and it`s size and population as a sate...and it`s neighbor-states: In many of those western states the US Government owns so much land it is hard to grow populations. Should they therefore be penalized by that same government because they remain relatively small. I will have to look it up, and I will edit this post, but Federal ownership of lands in these Western States is an anchor on growth.

[Edit] In Wyoming the Federal Governemnt owns 46.7 percent of the lands.

Nevada ......80.1 percent
Utah..............63.1 percent
Montana.....29.0 percent
By comparison, the Federal Lands in Michigan are 10 percent.
Respects, Morris





Morris, the US believes strongly in private ownership. Wouldn't the federal government release land for development if the population warranted it to be so? It was your federal governments that took possession of all of those western lands way back when. Some of it was taken from the First Nations of course, as it was in my country.

Some of that US federal land is also national park land or Forest Service reserves.

I did look up the history of land ownership in the US west and found that the federal government was keen to release or transfer land that it owned to the states if they wanted to administer to it or to individuals through a series of homesteading acts. The article that I read said that the federal government didn't balk when ranchers just started using federal land to graze cattle. There were problems when those ranchers or farmers decided to put fences around land that was federally owned or was on Indian land.

So a good deal of the land is mountainous or not desirable to farmers. The US Bureau of Land Management does lease out land to ranchers who need more grazing land and to oil companies too.

With the conservation movement came the desire to protect land and hence the beautiful park system that the US has. Add in land that for state park and conservation areas and the true mountains and there is a lot of land that people cannot or will not live upon.

The last thing that the article said was that ranchers and oil speculators would rather pay the lease rates to the federal government than to private owners. Why? It's way cheaper.

I guess that I don't understand the grumbling. Not from you, Morris. The article said that Americans generally don't like the concept of government ownership of the land. But if there isn't a need or a desire to move to these lands then why not leave it with the government? I think that some entity has to be in charge of resource management so that there isn't a free-for-all

[Read More]

Cheers,

George





I get your point but I think that you have to have the people interested in living in a state before the land is released.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 11:50:08 AM
Quote:
1814 the US invades Canada, near Niagara Falls, can you imagine no Canadian Falls!?? I always like to stop at Tim Horton's at the edge, & grab a coffee, & get this a "butter tart donut"! ? Go Canadian Falls, eh!!? What happened? What say you??


The fourth major invasion of Upper Canada took place on July 3, 1814. There were two in 1812 and another in 1813 as well as an invasion of Lower Canada in that year. All were repulsed.

On July 3, 1814 the US forces crossed the Niagara River at Buffalo, NY and very quickly took possession of Fort Erie.

By 1814 the US had weeded out the old guard who had led the US in the revolution but were well past their prime. They replaced them with younger and better trained officers. Winfield Scott took it upon himself to initiate a training programme that would turn a rather poor army in 1812 for whom the British had no respect, to one that was very professional by the summer of 1814 and would soon earn the respect of the British and Canadian militia and First Nations.

So they took Fort Erie on July 3 and then marched north. The undermanned British forces scrambled to gather a battle group to meet them at Chippawa. The smaller British army should not have attacked on July 5 and they were sent packing by the Americans.

This led to the bloodiest battle of the war on July 25 which was the Battle of Lundy's Lane which is very close to Niagara Falls. The battle was fought at night and the sides battered one another for hours. The Americans were full measure for their effort but so were the British. When the fighting ended, men were lying on the ground and fell asleep from exhaustion.



There was some thought given by the British to attacking the Americans on the next day but the British were as battered as the Americans.



The Americans chose to leave the field of battle and retreated to Fort Erie where the British then laid siege. The British tried an attack on the fort on Aug. 14 and it proved to be disastrous as the Americans repelled the force at great cost to the British.

For the next three months very little happened as both sides watched and waited. Then the Americans chose to go home. On Nov. 5, they crossed the river to New York and the final invasion of Upper Canada had ended.

Cheers,

George



OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 12:24:46 PM
Who decided they should go home?
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 2:03:33 PM
I George, I don`t dispute anything you posted. My answer was in response to Dave`s query, Does Wyoming have to much power now...along with it`s Western neighbors?

These states are small in population, the available lands for population growth is way low because of US government owning so much of it.

Wyoming has two US Senators...just the same as all the other states. At one time, these Senators would have been selected by the Wyoming State Legislature to act as proponents and agents to the Senate of the state. When the Constitution was amended to allow for Senators to be elected ( just as the congressmen are) then these Senators are now free-agents...they don`t represent the state interests in Washington...but their own interests and how to remain in office.
Wyoming has just one member of congress, based on population...the way the other states are apportioned.

I just can`t see begrudging Wyoming what little power it has, and Dave merely asked the question. Is it fair that California, or New York have so damn many in congress? They are losing seats to states like Florida and Texas, but for most of my life their representative power dwarfed that of several other states together. Is that fair? It`s our system. But having the exact same numbers in the Senate as any other state does...and only one measly little member in the house....that is not too much IMO.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 3:21:06 PM
Thanks Morris,

You may know that Canada has an appointed Senate and there has been a good deal of clamouring for a switch to a "Triple E" Senate (Equal, Elected, Effective). Those that believe in Triple "E" call for abolishment of the Senate if they cannot have what they want.

I'm not so sure that we shouldn't leave it as it is, more of an advisory body than anything else. Sometimes these appointed people come up with good amendments to legislation posed in the House of Commons. And they are appointed by regions. They are supposed to be residents and representatives of these geographic regions. The senators, in the initial plan, were not supposed to be aligned with any political party but somewhere along the line that changed. They don't represent provinces and are supposed to guard against intrusions by the federal government in the affairs of the provinces in their region.

So some see our Senate as a place of political patronage and it has been. Yours is not if I understand your description of the system.

But we have had some Senate reform and many now sit as independents, non-aligned if you like.

Generally, we don't know what the Senate is doing. It's committees are non-partisan and they act in the shadows. They have to approve all legislation but can only hold up House of Commons legislation for a limited period of time. That's a lot different from the US system, isn't it? Perhaps we should stick with it.

As for Dave's query, I sensed that he may have been alluding to the power that a state like Wyoming has in the Electoral College and whether it has too much influence.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 4:41:42 PM
Quote:
Who decided they should go home?


From memory now OP so don't shoot me but it seems to me that the Battle of Lundy's Lane had depleted the US senior officer cadre. Winfield Scott himself was badly injured and the rank and file took many casualties.

It is my understanding that the remaining officers discussed their options in the three months in which they remained at Fort Erie with the British lurking. Now when the British decided to attack the fort, they were soundly beaten by the Americans who intercepted one column advancing near the river bank and cut them down. One unit did enter the fort but a magazine blew up and killed many of them. The American soldiers were mostly behind a stone wall and did not suffer from the massive explosion.

The Americans then spent a lot of time in improving the defences of the fort. They cut down trees to improve the field of vision and built an additional redoubt beyond the fort's walls. A ditch around the fort was dug to greater depth and adorned with sharpened wooded spikes driven into the ground. They were well positioned to deal with the British attack on Aug. 15. After that the Americans continued to send out fighting units to harass the British. British Gen. Drummond finally withdrew from the vicinity of the fort on Sept. 21 and so the Americans had full control of this base. They had broken the siege although the British had erected a battery that could continue to batter the fort. And they weren't that far away despite ending the siege.

But during the discussions of their position the majority of the US officers felt that they were not in a position to advance north to push the British back and determined that it would be best to abandon Fort Erie. They knew that Gen. Drummond had been reinforced and more troops, veterans of the Napoleonic war were coming. With the launch of HMS St. Lawrence in Kingston harbour on Sept. 10, the RN now had control of Lake Ontario and so there would be little assistance from the USN which would remain bottled up at Sacket's Harbor. Control of Lake Ontario was very important and while the two squadrons never met in combat, the side with the greater number of larger ships would dominate. HMS St. Lawrence was the only ship of the line ever produced on the Great Lakes by either side. As it sailed, the RN held the upper hand.

If the US hoped to advance, they would need naval support in the north for supplies and to bombard the British as the Americans pushed them back. That support was gone on Sept. 10. As well, the British were planning an attack on the naval base at Sacket's Harbor and the Americans knew about that so where to deploy the troops then??

Did they make the correct decision? Well, their supplies were dwindling and the men were not properly equipped for the cold weather that was beginning to develop in September.

Gen. Jacob Brown had taken command in August and he had ordered 1500 members of the NY militia to cross and join the garrison. But Brown's officers were more concerned with the news that the British were attacking along the eastern seaboard of the US and had burned Washington on Aug. 24. Many felt that it was time to get home to defend the homeland rather than to attack Canada.

Gen. George Izard had arrived to reinforce Fort Erie with 1500 men. They had crossed the Niagara River near Buffalo. He was senior to Brown and took command. Despite having plans to attack, Izard felt that there was no point to it without naval support on Lake Ontario. British General Drummond was entrenched just to the north of Fort Erie with many more troops coming. Izard made the decision to head home and he ordered the Fort to be blown up as they left on Nov. 5.

Bit of a windy answer but there it is.

Cheers,

George





OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 7:13:27 PM
That's, I love wandering the byways of history.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 8:00:31 PM
Quote:
That's, I love wandering the byways of history.



Me too. I especially enjoy the perhaps little known or discussed aspects of North American history.

I should add that after the siege there were a number of skirmishes and men on both sides were killed before the Americans left for good. The Americans were determined to try to destroy the three batteries that the British had erected within shooting range of the fort.

They had demonstrated great skill and determination throughout the 1814 campaign in Canada but developments in other places impacted their plans on the Niagara Peninsula.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
7/25/2023 9:48:25 PM
Quote:
2,000 A Concord Jet crashes outside of Paris killing all!? Was this plane type flawed & unsafe!?? What say you??

IMHO, the SST was a fine, exciting, innovative a/c conceived when air travel was expected to remain a rather elite service and introduced to service when air travel was seen as mass transportation. Only 14 SSTs entered service, and they were shared by only two National airlines (Air France and British Airways). The small sample makes it difficult to determine whether it was either flawed or unsafe. But of the 14 in service, I believe only one crashed with loss of life in its service life of something like 30 years.

I’m not a tech freak by any means, but I have read at least two histories of the development of the Concorde, and each was fascinating. Heat dissipation; swelling and shrinkage caused by heat generated by speed of flight; concerns about the extension of the flight envelope – all had to be dealt with. Small but vital matters including extended landing gear; wing surface stability became engineering challenges.

I think the Concorde (SST) was a beautiful, expectation-busting, well-engineered a/c. That said, it was a sort of mistake – a mistake that still tempts designers to explore supersonic passenger flight. Mass air travel, with its flexible 3-tiered accommodation, has become the norm. Any further SST development (and it is going on as of now) is a hedge on travellers with funds to pay extraordinary money to reduce by a variable but perceptib.le margin any lengthy flight (think Aukland to Heathrow!).

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
7/26/2023 6:42:07 AM
I like Jack Ryan's take on supersonic air travel, "twice as terrified for half as long."

(When I was flying a lot for the USN one of my partners was a white-knuckle flier. Once he told me "landing is the only good part of a flight!" I replied "Yeah, but at that point they're TRYING to hit the ground." He never flew with me again. ;-) )
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
7/26/2023 8:42:55 PM
Quote:
I like Jack Ryan's take on supersonic air travel, "twice as terrified for half as long."

(When I was flying a lot for the USN one of my partners was a white-knuckle flier. Once he told me "landing is the only good part of a flight!" I replied "Yeah, but at that point they're TRYING to hit the ground." He never flew with me again. ;-) )


HILARIOUS!!!!!

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
7/27/2023 9:49:36 AM
Quote:
I like Jack Ryan's take on supersonic air travel, "twice as terrified for half as long."

(When I was flying a lot for the USN one of my partners was a white-knuckle flier. Once he told me "landing is the only good part of a flight!" I replied "Yeah, but at that point they're TRYING to hit the ground." He never flew with me again. ;-) )



Funny as hell OP!

On the opposite end of the spectrum, my dad was in the 9th Army Air Corps. He said that one pilot was so shaky at times that he couldn`t drink a cup of Joe without shaking . Some one said "I wouldn`t want to crew with that guy." Another answered, " He`s only like that on the ground..on a mission there is cooler cucumber in the air that that man."

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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