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Message
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/1/2023 8:37:29 PM
Quote:
JK noted that she had sent dozens of 1st Edition Philosopher's Stone books to directors and producers, and only one had shown interest. None of the others have shown up last I looked. They go for a pretty penny these days, but not after they've been through the recycle process.

OP, l didn’t know that, and to be honest it surprises me. I remember she was purported to have some trouble finding a publisher, sending out many mss. to many firms before Philosopher’s Stone{i] was picked up by Bloomsbury, but I didn’t realize the same thing happened with the rights for film adaptation. I would have thought the studios would have been lining up for a chance!

Dave, you point out: Quote:
But at least it kept our youth reading, as did JRR Tolkien's Lord of the rings trilogy, & Harry Potter novels, which is more than I can say for Pokemon, & the forms of Youth gaming going on!! Our youth have been kidnapped by fantasy tech! Wasting a good part of their lives!?
I’ll admit to a bias for reading myself, and I’m pleased to say that even through the agonies of split marriage and family, they carried their parents’ commitment to type as both a means of gaining and a repository of learning.

I remember, years ago, being all but entreated (by some wise member of MHO) to read JRR Tolkein’s Hobbit, since I had not read it but had read the more famous trilogy. Looking back, I can see parallels between The Hobbit and the seven volumes in the “Harry Potter” series. Tolkien was writing, of course, through an ever-darkening world crisis, and Bilbo’s journey reflects that in the progressively darkening tone, more violent battles, and increasingly human content of the story.

Rowling’s “Potter Books” follow the same pattern, but it appears to be not history but her own childrens’ growth which carried Harry from the playfulness of Philosopher’s Stone to the unmitigated gloom of Deathly Hallows.

Worth noting, however, is that many of the most popular teen activities fall within the genre of “the Quest”. In many ways there are only differences of what I would call depth and intelligence between Potter and Bilbo and Frodo and Pacman or the vapid nonsense of the various “superhero” franchises.

Oops, sorry! Getting carried away again!

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/2/2023 7:35:12 AM
Hi Brian,

I wonder how much of these youth fantasy authors are on the book banning lists going on? BTW are such book banning trends going on around the world or just here??

Cheers,,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/2/2023 8:45:10 AM
I didn't know that was still a thing.

c. 1967, I got a teacher fired for doing a book report on Stranger In A Strange Land, by Robert Heinlein. There's one scene in there where it's pretty obvious a threesome is going down. But the real reason, I do believe was because it questioned a lot of religion.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/2/2023 10:12:50 PM
Guys,

8-3, in today's historical events, include, Comments & new posts welcome!?

1492, Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue! On this day he set sail! Why is he gone from a children's hero to a villain??

1583, Sir Humprey Gilbert landed in St Johns Newfoundland, & claimed it for England!? I guess he just ignored the 1st Nations who already were there!? Also I believe the Vikings were the 1st Europeans there!? What say you??

1914 Germany declares war on France during WWI. The French have a bad location located right at the crossroads of Western Europe!? At least they fight for the good guys!? Comments??

1921 8 Chicago White Sox are banned for life for throwing the 1919 World Series!? what say you to The Black Sox scandal?? Anyone??

1936 Jessie Owens, shows Hitler at the Berlin games that Aryans may not be so superior!? What say you about the 1936 Olympics, & Jessie Owens!? Anyone??

1940 Lithuania becomes part of the Soviet Union! Were they coerced!? How secure as A country are they now??

1958 the Atomic submarine Nautilous goes under the North Pole! Did they have Canada's & other northern countries permission? Comments, anyone?

1992 Clint Eastwood, wins Academy Award for the western Unforgiven! What's you favorite Eastwood quote or movie!? What say you??

Go ahead make my day!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 5:49:11 AM
Quote:
?

1958 the Atomic submarine Nautilous goes under the North Pole! Did they have Canada's & other northern countries permission? Comments, anyone?


The seven-mile limit leaves large amounts of open ocean for transits. The right of peaceful passage would apply if the USN had to INVADE Canadian waters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters I've been on ships conducting "freedom of navigation" exercises, last time to instruct the NORKs about what is their private bailiwick and what will get them mauled if they try to dominate waters they really don't have the means to control. Time before that we had FOUR USN carriers in the Bering Straits. "Whale watching" that time IIRC.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 7:29:47 AM
Quote:
1583, Sir Humprey Gilbert landed in St Johns Newfoundland, & claimed it for England!? I guess he just ignored the 1st Nations who already were there!? Also I believe the Vikings were the 1st Europeans there!? What say you??


The Vikings had lived in Newfoundland nearly 600 years before this claim was made by Gilbert. They had created a settlement at a place called L'Anse aux Meadows which is an historical site today.



The Norse also had negative experiences with the First Nations on NFLD whom they called skralings and whom we know were the Beothuk people, now extinct. But the Norse decided to leave.

The claims made by the English were all part of the age of exploration and the desire to create colonial empires. Canada and the US are by products of these initiatives with the indigenous people losing in the process.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 7:47:31 AM
Quote:
1958 the Atomic submarine Nautilous goes under the North Pole! Did they have Canada's & other northern countries permission? Comments, anyone?


The north pole is in international waters though the USSR did plant a flag on the sea bed, I believe. No permission was solicited nor was it necessary.

The USN has also sent submarines into waters that Canada claims as its own. The same boat, Nautilus, made a transit of the Northwest passage in the same year 1958, and did so without informing Canada. The US has decided that the waters surrounding Canada's Arctic archipelago are international waters. Canada claims them as domestic or internal waterways.

There have been dozens of submarine passages over the decades.

Canada feels that there are probably regular passages made by submarines from the UK, China and Russia and we do no have the military assets to prevent it. We rely on other nations to honour the international Convention on the Law of the Sea and precedent in other archipelagos around the world. The International Court of Justice has confirmed the claim.

Canada and the US have "agreed to disagree" for years on the matter and in 1988 the US did say that it would inform Canada when a surface vessel or submarine was going to attempt a voyage.

We need a day in international court to settle the matter. The aggressive tone adopted by former Sec. of State, Mike Pompeo, during the last administration indicates that we need clarification. And Canada needs to build a better base for its new coastal patrol vessels.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 11:12:49 AM
Quote:
We need a day in international court to settle the matter.

Cheers,

George


Sorry George, but there are more important matters in this world than having an "international court" muck things up even more than what they are.

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 2:40:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
We need a day in international court to settle the matter.

Cheers,

George


Sorry George, but there are more important matters in this world than having an "international court" muck things up even more than what they are.

Dan


But Dan, that is how disputes like this are managed. I don't think that we should have to accept the US interpretation that would allow all foreign flagged ships to enter and transit so close to Canadian land.

Of note, the US has refused to sign the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea because it would limit its ability to act unilaterally on issues like the Northwest Passage.

I get it. There are other issues in the world. This one happens to be close to home and our sovereignty is being challenged by our closest ally and friend; not in the same manner as in Ukraine of course but indeed, challenged. We just aren't shooting over it, thank goodness.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 3:28:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We need a day in international court to settle the matter.

Cheers,

George


Sorry George, but there are more important matters in this world than having an "international court" muck things up even more than what they are.

Dan


But Dan, that is how disputes like this are managed. I don't think that we should have to accept the US interpretation that would allow all foreign flagged ships to enter and transit so close to Canadian land.

Of note, the US has refused to sign the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea because it would limit its ability to act unilaterally on issues like the Northwest Passage.

I get it. There are other issues in the world. This one happens to be close to home and our sovereignty is being challenged by our closest ally and friend; not in the same manner as in Ukraine of course but indeed, challenged. We just aren't shooting over it, thank goodness.

Cheers,

George


My point is, If countries are doing it now, there is not one international court that will stop this from happening. It would be nice if that happened, but I just don't believe it's a realistic situation that would be resolved in the courts or by itself based on the goodwill of any country.

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 3:53:33 PM
Thanks Dan. I understand your point I think. But implicit in it then is that force has to be used to stop these incursions. We don't want to go there and realistically we cannot. Please appreciate that we regard these practices as akin to invasion. Canada has made it quite clear to the US that these waters are internal Canadian waters. If there is no goodwill in this world especially among allies, then we are in bigger trouble than I have previously thought.

As yet the Northwest Passage is not fully open throughout the year.

Canada is building Arctic and Offshore Patrol Vessels precisely to establish and maintain sovereignty in a part of the world that until the ice began to melt was of little interest to others. These are warships, armed but not heavily so. They have a flight deck to accommodate search and rescue helicopters. I believe that they are based on a Norwegian Coast Guard Svalbard design.



These vessels have some ability to handle lighter ice but they cannot do what our ice breakers do and we need more of the heavies.

It's not just sovereignty though. With increased traffic comes the need to provide search and rescue capabilities at a level that we have not had to provide before. Right now there are tourist vessels travelling in the passage. When they get into rough ice, who do they call? The Canadian Coast Guard.

And criminal elements will undoubtedly find a use for the passage and so the navy will assume a policing role too.

Lastly, there is great concern that we could have an oil or chemical spill in these pristine waters which will affect the lives of the indigenous people. At this juncture, we do not have clean-up capabilities that far north, hence the need to regulate traffic which can only happen when sovereignty is maintained and respected. With sovereignty comes regulation of ship travel in an area that needs and deserves protection.

In any case, it would be nice if small countries like Canada did not have to defend their sovereignty against much more powerful countries. The archipelago is Canadian land. That is not in dispute. But there are those who would deny sovereignty claims to the waters that surround the islands.

This looks like internal waterways to me



Cheers,

George



OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 7:47:18 PM
Bering Straits is internal?
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 8:29:49 PM
Quote:
Bering Straits is internal?


No, it is international water between two separate countries, USA and Russia. All the water in the Northwest Passage abuts the islands of the Canadian Archipelago.

Canada's position is that Article 2 and Article 8 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea assures that the NW Passage is internal water and as such vessels flying a foreign flag may not freely enter.

The UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is below. It is actually a pretty remarkable document in its detail. Most of the world supports it. It is rather a dry read though. Have at it if you wish.

[Read More]

Of note, the US has not signed. It accepts and practices some of the articles in the Convention such as an observation of the 12 mile limit and the extension of a 200 mile economic zone. It accepts the articles that deal with fisheries.

But it does not accept certain parts that limit its ability to conduct trade as it wishes. And so it ignores the articles of the convention that would regulate transit of the NW Passage.

Cheers,

George


OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 9:06:18 PM
"No, it is international water between two separate countries, USA and Russia. "

That's neutral.
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/3/2023 9:38:50 PM
It seems likely that with the melting of the ice the NWP will become an international shipping route from Asia to Western Europe and the east coast of the US. The real danger is the potential of ecological disaster from a major pollution spill. Control and regulation would have to come from Canada with the support of other countries.

Here is detailed comment on the legal situation, as of 2018, from Dr. Suzanne Lalonde of the Faculty of Law at the Université de Montréal.

[Read More]

Two of her last three comments are particularly interesting to me.

Quote:
Finally, Canada could simply agree, at the request of another State, to submit the question of the
legal status of the NWP to the International Court of Justice or the International Law of the Sea
Tribunal or an ad hoc arbitration tribunal but the odds of this happening are very, very slim.

For as the renowned law of the sea expert and professor Bernie Oxman (Professor at U of Miami,
judge ad hoc at the ICJ) once declared, “litigation is very much like surgery … you never know!”


Gary
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/4/2023 3:37:26 AM
I guess one cannot see the pristine environment for all the blinking dollar signs.

Trevor the apprentice curmudgeon
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/4/2023 7:08:26 AM

Hey guys,

8-3,'s historical events, include, Comments not discussed yet!? Anyone??

1492, Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue! On this day he set sail! Why is he gone from a children's hero to a villain??

1583, Sir Humprey Gilbert landed in St Johns Newfoundland, & claimed it for England!? I guess he just ignored the 1st Nations who already were there!? Also I believe the Vikings were the 1st Europeans there!? Good response George!

1914 Germany declares war on France during WWI. The French have a bad location located right at the crossroads of Western Europe!? At least they fight for the good guys!? Comments??

1921 8 Chicago White Sox are banned for life for throwing the 1919 World Series!? what say you to The Black Sox scandal?? Anyone??

1936 Jessie Owens, shows Hitler at the Berlin games that Aryans may not be so superior!? What say you about the 1936 Olympics, & Jessie Owens!? Anyone??

1940 Lithuania becomes part of the Soviet Union! Were they coerced!? How secure as A country are they now??

1958 the Atomic submarine Nautilous goes under the North Pole! Did they have Canada's & other northern countries permission? Great discussion on the NW Passage! Please continue!?

1992 Clint Eastwood, wins Academy Award for the western Unforgiven! What's you favorite Eastwood quote or movie!? What say you??

Any major events for 8-4 in history? We must be missing something? Anyone?

Checking out tomorrow, 8-5 in history, here are some events,

1100, Henry I was crowned king of England! Who was the 1st King of England, & how did it come about?? Bri. or anyone??

1772 the 1st Partician of Poland! The poor Poles are just located in a bad locale! What say you??

1864 Admiral Farragut blocks off Mobile Bay from Blockade Runners! As the war goes on the blockade is definitely becoming more effective!? Comments on how this hurt the Confederacy!? Also how close did the British come to helping the South!? Anyone??

1963 the Nuclear Test ban Treaty is signed!! By who,& how effective was it?? Comments?

1981 Pres. Ronald Reagan fires 11,000 Air traffic controllers! Does he have that right?? Why??

Any new discussions??
Cheers
MD

BTW Any more discussing of the British Empire! It's a fascinating topic! I recently read a great book on it, Empire, by Niall Ferguson! Anyone else read it? Any other good books on the British Empire? Also was the fact the Brits. had the best navy, the #1 reason they acquired such a large extensive, Empire? What say you??

& Bri. Visiting Gibraltar had to be cool!? Except their airport is one of the most dangerous on earth!? How did that come about?? Love travel stories!? Anyone??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/4/2023 7:15:04 AM
Quote:
I guess one cannot see the pristine environment for all the blinking dollar signs.

Trevor the apprentice curmudgeon



Also Trevor,

All this heating of the Oceans Waters will make for horrific storms, according to weather & climate experts? Currently the water temps. off Florida's southern coast are over a 100 degrees F! What's that in Celsius?? No more cool dips in the Ocean??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/4/2023 8:36:02 AM
Quote:
It seems likely that with the melting of the ice the NWP will become an international shipping route from Asia to Western Europe and the east coast of the US. The real danger is the potential of ecological disaster from a major pollution spill. Control and regulation would have to come from Canada with the support of other countries.

Here is detailed comment on the legal situation, as of 2018, from Dr. Suzanne Lalonde of the Faculty of Law at the Université de Montréal.

[Read More]

Two of her last three comments are particularly interesting to me.

Quote:
Finally, Canada could simply agree, at the request of another State, to submit the question of the
legal status of the NWP to the International Court of Justice or the International Law of the Sea
Tribunal or an ad hoc arbitration tribunal but the odds of this happening are very, very slim.

For as the renowned law of the sea expert and professor Bernie Oxman (Professor at U of Miami,
judge ad hoc at the ICJ) once declared, “litigation is very much like surgery … you never know!”


Gary



Many thanks for that analysis, Gary. I won't pretend to understand all of the legal arguments and I am biased toward those that support the Canadian position.

It seems that Canada will attempt to prove that Canadians (read Inuit) live and work the archipelago. The Canadian Rangers in that part of the country are supported by the Canadian military and they conduct patrols to establish sovereignty. They also report sightings of vessels in the archipelago. They are armed and quite recently were issued rifles currently used by the Canadian forces. These replaced the 303 Lee-Enfield rifles that they had been using for decades. The Inuit Rangers were crack shots with that old rifle.

And as mentioned, the Canadian Coast Guard will increase the number of patrol vessels. And the federal government is finally building an Arctic deep water port in the Territory of Nunavut.
The hope is to strengthen one of the legal arguments that Canada has always been active in the Arctic. Too little? Too late? Time will tell I guess.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/4/2023 9:39:08 AM
Hi George,

Just curious where is Canada putting it's deep water port in the Arctic? Do you have any pics, videos, or a website on it??

Thanks,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/4/2023 10:07:14 AM
1914 : Britain declares war on Germany. Enough said !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/4/2023 11:00:00 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

Just curious where is Canada putting it's deep water port in the Arctic? Do you have any pics, videos, or a website on it??

Thanks,
MD


It will be located at Qikiqtarjuaq, Nunavut. Try saying that three times fast.

I had to look this up but apparently the pronunciation is something like , "ki-kik-TAAK-jo-ahk". Rolls right off the tongue. It means "big island" in the Inuktitut language. The hamlet is also the head office for Auyuittuq National Park which is nearby and does attract hardy tourists.

Apparently the locals shorten the name of their hamlet to Qik.

And a station of the North Warning System (formerly the DEW line) is based here.



Qikiqtarjuaq is on the east side of the NWP near one of the entrances to the passage.









Work continues on the port



map of Nunavut. Qikiqtariuaq is on the far east side of the map to the north if Iqaluit. Iqaluit is the territorial capital of Nunavut and there is already a port there. I'm not sure how Qikiqtariuaq was selected. The government of Nunavut wants to open more ports for economic reasons so they lobbied the federal government to place the new port in another spot.



Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/4/2023 10:03:10 PM
Gary, you say:Quote:
It seems likely that with the melting of the ice the NWP will become an international shipping route from Asia to Western Europe and the east coast of the US. The real danger is the potential of ecological disaster from a major pollution spill. Control and regulation would have to come from Canada with the support of other countries.

Get your argument. But what’s all this focus on the NWP about? Yes, it means something to Canada, and I sense that using the term “Northwest Passage” retains focus on territory which may have been defined as Canadian, though Canada is ill-prepared to patrol, defend, service, supply or protect, let alone render environmental protection.

There is already an active shipping route across the polar waters, carrying goods to and from Asia and Northern Europe. It is monitored by Russian military and maritime forces, has the use of at least a dozen nuclear-powered ice breakers, and has an increasing number of northern support bases and facilities (including, IIRC, military forces) providing services. The route spans from the Kola peninsula to China, with Vladivostok IIRC as Russia’s eastern entry gate.

Much of what I am noting comes from various copies of the “Barents Independent”, an independent, internet based journal printing articles in both English and Russian (at least in the edition I receive by email).

I’m not prepared to talk about Russia’s environment protection policies or capabilities, and I wouldn’t necessarily expect to hear of a shipping disaster on this Polar Route unless Russia did a great job of controlling it. Neither Russia nor China (the two biggest players in this enterprise) is recognized as meeting western standards of environmental protection. My point, sadly, is that at present, and for more than the foreseeable future, Canada has no ability to meet western standards of environmental protection either. Nor to they have the ice-breakers, supply bases or any other single capability to make the western polar passage safe.

Of course, there are other issues which come into play. I don’t know relative distances between various harbours, e.g., and I don’t know know about costs of permits or fuel. I don’t know about a lot of stuff. But I assume that with a choice of two polar trade routes – all things being equal – one would choose the better developed, better maintained and better supported. There may e a host of reasons to believe that the NWP could be a better route than the trans-Siberian route. But Canada better get its ass in gear, or all of Canada’s boasting about control and ownership will lead to losing whatever real control it has over such a vast area. And since that control is pretty weak to start with, I think all of Canada’s flag-waving is just one more embarrassing indication of Canada’s misguided belief in it’s own significance.

Cheers
Brian G


----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/5/2023 7:43:24 AM
Brian, that is a rather harsh indictment of the country. I think that Canada well knows its place in the world and tries to occupy that space as an honest broker. Despite a penchant for annoying moralizing, I think that we have been a positive influence on world affairs in our limited role. That position has served us well in the past and especially as middle man when the US and the UK are in negotiations.

If the claim to sovereignty is flag waving then so be it. I find it distressing that small to middle powers may be subject to the demands of larger and more powerful nations. If I can understand the passion with which the Ukrainians are approaching their war with Russia, then I can also understand why a lesser power like Canada would remind the world that a section of its territory is inviolate. We have been defending this total land mass from invaders since well before Confederation. Hopefully, we may continue to do that without bloodshed.

You mentioned that Canada is ill prepared to provide environmental protection and mitigation as needed in the far north. All the more reason for the country to establish regulatory measures that will impact those foreign flagged vessels that wish to travel so close to Canadian land in the archipelago. That of course will not happen so long as foreign powers simply ignore our claims to sovereignty. Flag waving in the extreme may not be the "Canadian way". I know that that behaviour tends to embarrass us but in this case we must make our claim assertively and then provide resources to support our contention.

There was a column in the Toronto Star the other day by David Olive in which he suggested that perhaps Canada should stop trying to be all things to all nations. He suggested that we should stop our support of foreign initiatives. We should pull out of NATO, he said. His argument was that all of our resources will be needed to protect our own property. He didn't mean necessarily from physical attack but that is part of it. He meant that as we watch the country thaw in places and burn in others that environmental protection will become more costly. And yes he did mention that protection of sovereignty requires the placement of boots in places where we have none, like the far north. So shall be bring back the 1700 members of our underfunded and understaffed military from Latvia and cancel the promise to double that number? Shall we concentrate on the defence of North America and let the big powers squabble over other events and places?

A bit off topic I know but we aren't big enough or powerful enough to be all things to all people or allies. If we wish to open and protect our far north, then something else has to give. And I believe that protection of the north is our responsibility.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/5/2023 7:52:36 AM
Help me out, please. What's the threat here?
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/5/2023 12:01:19 PM
Quote:
Help me out, please. What's the threat here?


Hello OP,

If the Northwest passage which travels amongst the many islands of Canada's archipelago is assumed to be an international strait then Canada will have no regulatory control over who transits, how many at a time and what they are carrying. An oil spill from a tanker in this part of the world would be devastating to the indigenous population that still feeds itself and earns a living from the sea. Sadly, Canada, as Brian and I have noted, does not have the capacity to mitigate environmental disasters that far north.

As well, should there be accidents or threats to human life on any of the vessels in transit, it would still be incumbent upon the nation to provide search and rescue and critical aid to travellers. Right now if a S and R operation is needed in the far north, we despatch our first rate military SAR techs to the area. But they are coming from bases farther south and it takes time to get them to where they need to be. All of that would have to change should the NWP be assumed to be an international strait. I concede that Canada would need to provide better services even if the NWP was domestic water.

If the waters are accepted to be internal waters by the rest of the world then Canada would have regulatory control over those that wish to transit. There would be an economic benefit to Canada. I just read that the 20% of the Russian GDP is generated from activities associated with the Northern Sea Route that passes through Russian owned territory.

The US had declared Canada's claim that the waterways are internal Canadian waterways to be "illegitimate". Now why the US would be concerned over that ownership status of this passage is another question. Most of its population and the seat of government are in the lower 48th. Perhaps the movement of Prudhoe Bay oil is the motivation. Just blue skying here.

The European Union has also expressed reservations over Canada's claim. Euro nations have, for centuries, eyed the NWP as a shorter route to Asia and its markets rather than sending ships from a northern Euro country through the Med and the Suez Canal.

Ironically we do have an ally in Russia which brooks no attempts to challenge its ownership of the waterways through the Northern Sea Route. Russian claims are based upon security as are Canada's.

The US has also challenged the Russian contention too but certainly not by sending vessels through unannounced.

So the threat is the loss of control over one's assets.

I will add that the indigenous claim by the Inuit that the lands and the water and certainly the ice on the water have been theirs for centuries. Nunavut has a number of land and water claims on the go right now. We cannot dismiss the claims of the original inhabitants any longer.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/5/2023 1:44:55 PM
An interesting map to indicate the positions of the Northwest Passage and the Northern Sea Route



George

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/6/2023 7:10:46 AM
1945 : Hiroshima.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
8/6/2023 10:34:06 AM
Quote:
1945 : Hiroshima.

Regards, Phil

I recently heard about all the hundreds of thousands of leaflets that were dropped by the US warning the Japanese citizens to evacuate several cities on the target list in advance of the bomb being dropped. Anyone know more about this bit of history that goes untold.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/6/2023 12:51:43 PM
Today in history, 8-7, these events happened!

1872 George Washington creates the Purple Heart Medal, my late father John, of the US 1st Cavalry received 2 of them for fighting in the Pacific in WWII, one in New Guinea, & another in the Philippines! I'M lucky to even be here, considering he was a scout for his unit!? Thanks dad!

1942 the Americans seize the airfield on Guadalcanal! This was one of the most contested horrific battles of WWII? What say you about one of the 1st losses by the IJA in WWII!? A critical victory!?? Comments, & websites??

1978 the Love Canal toxic leak near Niagara Falls, did it effect Canada?? Comments anyone?

1987 Canadian Sidney Crosby is born where does he rank as A NHL star? What say you??

Also your right Phil, the biggest event was 8-6-1945 dropping of the 1st Atomic bomb at Hiroshima the world would never be the same!? What say you??

New topics, new comments! Anyone?
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/6/2023 1:33:55 PM
On Aug. 6, 1497, Giovanni Caboto (John Cabot) returned to Bristol, England after his voyage what would become Canada, specifically Newfoundland. This made him the first European to do that since the Norsemen.

Cabot had been a trader in his native Venice. He fled Venice because he owed some people money and he wound up in Spain in 1490. There he offered to develop a harbour in Valencia, Spain and that attracted the attention of Fernando the King of Aragon and Catherine, the Queen of Castille. They ruled a unified Spain and they had just financed Columbus' trip to the new world in 1492. But the harbour deal fell through. Cabot was hired to complete another engineering job but he was taking so much time that the town fathers wanted him fired. So he left and went to England.

There is speculation that Cabot had been on Columbus' second voyage.

That may have been the reason the King Henry VII of England was convinced that Cabot was an explorer of note with sufficient experience to undertake a voyage on behalf of the crown. In 1496 the King gave Cabot a patent to explore and claim any lands to the west that had not already been claimed by other Christian monarchs.

Quote:
“find, discover and investigate whatsoever islands, countries, regions or provinces of heathens and infidels, in whatsoever part of the world placed, which before this time were unknown to all Christians.”


He was granted the right to:

Quote:
“conquer, occupy and possess whatsoever towns, castles, cities and islands by them discovered.”


His first voyage in 1496 ended in failure. It is likely that he was beset by storms forcing him to return to England.

In 1497, he mounted his second voyage.

It is likely that Cabot examined the coastlines of Newfoundland and Labrador. He probably sighted Beothuk indigenous people on the shore. And he returned quite excited about the number of cod fish available. His men dropped weighted baskets into the sea and filled them with cod fish.

Historians may only surmise from the rough latitudes and longitudes reported that Cabot landed on the south shore of Labrador and then crossed to the north shore of Newfoundland and then made his way along the eastern coastline before heading home.



Reports indicate that when they saw shadowy figures running through the woods that his men refused to travel any farther than a "crossbow's shot" from any shoreline. They were spooked.

Of course, he was disappointed that he didn't find any cities in Asia teeming with people and trade goods. That was the goal after all. But he receives recognition as the first to make this voyage since the Norse and for the establishment of England as a rightful owner of these newly found lands.

Cheers,

George



Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/6/2023 6:53:36 PM
Amen, Phil.

B
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/6/2023 7:32:02 PM
Morris, such leaflets were indeed dropped – over some 30+ cities. I’m not sure if the same leaflet was used for all cities, but a translation of at least one of the leaflets is available at the following sight:
[Read More]

I can’t attest to the accuracy of the translation, of course. And this appears to be the second version of the leaflet. But the very fact that they were called LeMay leaflets suggests they were dropped under his specific orders, if not under his name.

Curtis LeMay was, at least so I believe, the C-in-C Operations for the bombing effort against Japan. He introduced the area bombing tactics he had observed in RAF practice in Europe to the ETO. He argued he was bombing war production, but by 1945 much Japanese production was broadly dispersed. So he bombed cities. Japanese cities were largely built of light, flammable materials; the cities, one after one, were put to the torch.

I sense that, to any Japanese resident of a large city snowed by such leaflets, the message would have seemed either ironic, cruel or yet more propaganda. This was a warning from a man whose bombers were spending their time burning Japanese cities (and Japanese citizens) to the ground nightly. To date, LeMay had an odd way of conducting war designed to keep civilians out of the line of fire. Particularly before Hiroshima, why would any Japanese citizen believe this leaflet was in their best interest?

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 7:22:52 AM
Again, Today in history, 8-7, these events happened!

1872 George Washington creates the Purple Heart Medal, my late father John, of the US 1st Cavalry received 2 of them for fighting in the Pacific in WWII, one in New Guinea, & another in the Philippines! I'M lucky to even be here, considering he was a scout for his unit!? Thanks dad!

1942 the Americans seize the airfield on Guadalcanal! This was one of the most contested horrific battles of WWII? What say you about one of the 1st losses by the IJA in WWII!? A critical victory!?? Comments, & websites??

1978 the Love Canal toxic leak near Niagara Falls, did it effect Canada?? Comments anyone?

Also tomorrow, 8-8 in history check these out! Comments??

1588 the English fleet defeats the Spanish Armada, or did mother nature defeat it? How big was this to naval history!? Anyone??

1846 the Wilmont Proviso, what was it about? & how did this effect slavery & the CW. Anyone??

1945 the Allies sign the London Agreement! What was it about?? Comments?

2000 The CSA submarine HL Hunley's weakage was discovered in Charleston SC harbor! What say you about the 1st military sub!? How many times did it sink? How many CSA sailors with it? I knew the guys who helped find it!? Also visited their graves at Charleston SC Magnolia Cemetary! Any websites or posts on this ship, or it's story!?

New or old topics, new comments! Anyone?
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 8:48:34 AM

Hello Dave. A thanks to your dad`s service to his country. Sounds like he had a tough slog, one of the greatest generation for sure!

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 8:51:38 AM
Quote:
1978 the Love Canal toxic leak near Niagara Falls, did it effect Canada?? Comments anyone?


A lot of Americans in a group of houses that were built on a chemical dump had their health damaged. Cancers soared. Toxic chemicals from the canal had leached into the soil.

It was the Hooker Chemical Company that owned the canal that they dumped waste into. They capped it off and sold it to a school board. The board must have known what was there because they signed the deal and it included a warning from Hooker that bad stuff had been stored there.

The US federal government spent millions to relocate the 800 families who had purchased single family homes built on the site. A school had been built in the development as well. It was a model community built on a stew of toxic waste.

One good thing that came of it was national awareness of the need to be vigilant when dealing with large corporations involved in the chemical business. Environmental concerns started to become more prominent in the public psyche.

This was a huge environmental and human disaster.

As for Canada, I do know that when the authorities in New York were cleaning up the canal that waste was sent to Canada for incineration. The closest site to Love Canal that could handle that job was in Sarnia, Ontario. This was actually a secondary dump site that had been overlooked in the initial clean-up. This kind of thing is not good for relations between our two countries. The response of Americans when they discovered that Ontario was shipping garbage to a Michigan landfill site was the same as that of Canadians to the Love Canal waste. "Deal with your own garbage"

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 9:21:58 AM
Quote:


1588 the English fleet defeats the Spanish Armada, or did mother nature defeat it? How big was this to naval history!? Anyone??



Hi Dave,

The English navy expended huge amounts of ordnance and powder, exhausting their reserves entirely, whilst trying in vain to sink the powerful Spanish warships. Despite the tactics of Drake et al, the English weren't able to break up the Spanish fleet until it took harbour at Calais, where the Dutch small craft and English fireships forced the Spanish fleet to scatter. Faced with the prospect of the fleet being surrounded and captured piecemeal, which I suspect was Drake's plan anyway, the armada sailed north, then west, then south, right around the British and Irish isles. Some of the Spanish ships broke up on the rugged Scottish and Irish western shorelines; some of those beached surviving sailors who weren't murdered on the beaches by the locals stayed and put down roots. Others made gradually made their way back to Spain, although I am unaware of any real attempt by the Spanish Crown to repatriate their personnel.

The plan to sail the armada to the low countries and pick up the Spanish army was a bold one, and would have required careful planning and co-ordination in any era. The Spanish relied upon on a relay of horse riders to get the orders and messages between Spain and the Spanish Netherlands; the English used a system of bonfire signal towers to alert the authorities when the armada was spotted from the Lizard in Cornwall. That the armada reached Calais in good order is testament to the seamanship of the Spanish Navy; that the army was unable to board the fleet is testament to the tribulations of combined-arms operations in the pre-telegraph era. However, I am convinced if the Spanish had managed to land their forces in England they would have quickly overwhelmed the forces Elizabeth had assembled. Whether their chosen puppet monarch could have survived the inevitable protestant insurgency, probably supported by the Scottish protestants also, is another matter.

The failure of the armada paved the way to England becoming a first rank naval power, later to become the predominant naval power (as Great Britain) from the mid-18th century until the Second World War.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 9:22:07 AM
Veterans exposed to toxins should look into the "PACT Act". Treatment and compensation for them is available.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 11:07:41 AM
Quote:
Veterans exposed to toxins should look into the "PACT Act". Treatment and compensation for them is available.


OP, there is a politician in Maine, Senator Jackson, who is fighting for members of the National Guard who may have been exposed to Agent Orange and other herbicides while on a training exercise at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick, Canada. That base is large and joint exercises are often conducted there.

In 1966 and 1967 the US supplied a variety of herbicides to be tested on foliage at Gagetown. US National Guard members were present who recall sleeping on the ground after the spraying occurred.

Canada has already settled with its forces members who were exposed and suffered all sorts of health problems as a result of exposure.

But it seems that these National Guard members do not qualify for the US settlement package as they did not serve in Vietnam.
Is that still the policy?

CBC news article

[Read More]

Government of Maine Information paper

[Read More]

But the timeline doesn't add up. These National Guard service people say that their training at Gagetown was in the early 70's. The Canadian government claims that it only received barrels of herbicides on the two occasions in the '60's. Now I wonder whether we have been told the whole story.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 11:24:26 AM
Quote:

Hello Dave. A thanks to your dad`s service to his country. Sounds like he had a tough slog, one of the greatest generation for sure!

Respects, Morris




Thanks Morris,

I appreciate that, I wish now I had picked his brain about his side on the war in the Pacific! But back then I wasn't so much into it, once I asked him if he had killed many of the enemy, he said he had but he preferred not to talk about it. I did learn about some of his experiences, but I never pushed him for more!

He also was a great dad!

I respected that!
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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