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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 9:13:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:


1588 the English fleet defeats the Spanish Armada, or did mother nature defeat it? How big was this to naval history!? Anyone??



Hi Dave,

The English navy expended huge amounts of ordnance and powder, exhausting their reserves entirely, whilst trying in vain to sink the powerful Spanish warships. Despite the tactics of Drake et al, the English weren't able to break up the Spanish fleet until it took harbour at Calais, where the Dutch small craft and English fireships forced the Spanish fleet to scatter. Faced with the prospect of the fleet being surrounded and captured piecemeal, which I suspect was Drake's plan anyway, the armada sailed north, then west, then south, right around the British and Irish isles. Some of the Spanish ships broke up on the rugged Scottish and Irish western shorelines; some of those beached surviving sailors who weren't murdered on the beaches by the locals stayed and put down roots. Others made gradually made their way back to Spain, although I am unaware of any real attempt by the Spanish Crown to repatriate their personnel.

The plan to sail the armada to the low countries and pick up the Spanish army was a bold one, and would have required careful planning and co-ordination in any era. The Spanish relied upon on a relay of horse riders to get the orders and messages between Spain and the Spanish Netherlands; the English used a system of bonfire signal towers to alert the authorities when the armada was spotted from the Lizard in Cornwall. That the armada reached Calais in good order is testament to the seamanship of the Spanish Navy; that the army was unable to board the fleet is testament to the tribulations of combined-arms operations in the pre-telegraph era. However, I am convinced if the Spanish had managed to land their forces in England they would have quickly overwhelmed the forces Elizabeth had assembled. Whether their chosen puppet monarch could have survived the inevitable protestant insurgency, probably supported by the Scottish protestants also, is another matter.

The failure of the armada paved the way to England becoming a first rank naval power, later to become the predominant naval power (as Great Britain) from the mid-18th century until the Second World War.

Cheers,

Colin



Hi Colin,

Thanks for the great response, & setting it straight on the English navy besting the Spanish Armada, the use of fire ships had to be terrifying to face! It had to be another time that the Armada was wrecked by storms in the channel?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 9:15:04 PM
D
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 9:16:20 PM
Again, Today in history, 8-7, these events happened! Moving from previous page, for more disussion!?

1872 George Washington creates the Purple Heart Medal, my late father John, of the US 1st Cavalry received 2 of them for fighting in the Pacific in WWII, one in New Guinea, & another in the Philippines! I'M lucky to even be here, considering he was a scout for his unit!? Thanks dad!

1942 the Americans seize the airfield on Guadalcanal! This was one of the most contested horrific battles of WWII? What say you about one of the 1st losses by the IJA in WWII!? A critical victory!?? Comments, & websites??

1978 the Love Canal toxic leak near Niagara Falls, did it effect Canada?? Comments anyone?

Also tomorrow, 8-8 in history check these out! Comments??

1588 the English fleet defeats the Spanish Armada, or did mother nature defeat it? How big was this to naval history!? Anyone??

1846 the Wilmont Proviso, what was it about? & how did this effect slavery & the CW. Anyone??

1945 the Allies sign the London Agreement! What was it about?? Comments?

2000 The CSA submarine HL Hunley's weakage was discovered in Charleston SC harbor! What say you about the 1st military sub!? How many times did it sink? How many CSA sailors with it? I knew the guys who helped find it!? Also visited their graves at Charleston SC Magnolia Cemetary! Any websites or posts on this ship, or it's story!?

New or old topics, new comments! Anyone?
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 9:26:49 PM
Hi George,

Thanks for the response on the Love Canal situation! And just what's up with you Canadians sending your garbage to Michigan! You have the largest land country in the Western Hemisphere!!?

Keep your own garbage!?

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/7/2023 11:35:24 PM
Quote:
1872 George Washington creates the Purple Heart Medal, my late father John, of the US 1st Cavalry received 2 of them for fighting in the Pacific in WWII, one in New Guinea, & another in the Philippines! I'M lucky to even be here, considering he was a scout for his unit!? Thanks dad!

1942 the Americans seize the airfield on Guadalcanal! This was one of the most contested horrific battles of WWII? What say you about one of the 1st losses by the IJA in WWII!? A critical victory!?? Comments, & websites??

Regards,
MD


Hi MD, I recall you writing about your father previously, did he fight at Milne Bay?

Japanese leadership in the field and on the seas have impressed me very little from the WWII era, oh sure there were some who performed well (Tanaka at Guadalcanal being the first to come to my thoughts) but overall, there were so many factors going against them that their ability to adapt showed their lack of tactical skill. No doubt Guadalcanal was a close run thing as much so when the Japanese crossed over the Owens headed to Port Moresby. But, the IJ Army and Navy's inability to work together was near absolute zero and this killed any initiative they had at both battles and that initiative was more than available once at both sites.

Dan

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/8/2023 8:13:19 AM
Hi Dan,

Thanks for your interest in my late father, John, In answer to your question about involvement at Milne Bay, no he wasn't there. He was with the 1st Cavalry Division, (they had a horse on their insignia) their attack on New Guinea came up the coast at Aitape, he received his first purple heart from a wound he received there in heavy combat!

He was proud to be in this 1st Cavalry Division, ( one of the most decorated divisions of the US Army) singing to me some a song he learned In the states during training, he actually had a US steed that he rode, singing a silly song to me as a kid, " the cavalry, the cavalry, with the dust behind their ears". He once gave the great actor Gary Cooper his riding stick, when Coops visited the troops in New Guinea!

Then he fought in the Admiralty Islands, then finally Luzon in the Philippines, where he was wounded again in combat! Thus receiving his 2nd Purple heart! Lucky for him his wounds were not in a mortal area his leg, & his forearm! Both myself, & my brother have 1 each of his purple hearts! He got a 21 gun salute at his funeral in 2000! He was not just a target for the IJA, he also received other combat related items!

Just a proud son!
Regards,
MD

BTW once he was saved by an Indian scout, (little beaver) while almost moving into a jungle ambush!

He told me when the troops were facing the IJA from a secure position the would shout "Tojo eats shit!!!" To the IJA guys.

Also as a student teacher once, I took 1 of my classes to the school library, & was paging through a WWII in the Pacific history book, & there on one of the pages plain as day was my dad with a obvious wound to his leg being carried from the field by 2 other troopers! It was erie, because of time I had to leave, since then I have never seen that photo again!??

He also was in stories in the Chicago Tribune, & Life Magazine, or so I've been told??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/8/2023 9:30:50 AM
Quote:
Hi Dan,

Thanks for your interest in my late father, John, In answer to your question about involvement at Milne Bay, no he wasn't there. He was with the 1st Cavalry Division, (they had a horse on their insignia) their attack on New Guinea came up the coast at Aitape, he received his first purple heart from a wound he received there in heavy combat!

He was proud to be in this 1st Cavalry Division, ( one of the most decorated divisions of the US Army) singing to me some a song he learned In the states during training, he actually had a US steed that he rode, singing a silly song to me as a kid, " the cavalry, the cavalry, with the dust behind their ears". He once gave the great actor Gary Cooper his riding stick, when Coops visited the troops in New Guinea!

Then he fought in the Admiralty Islands, then finally Luzon in the Philippines, where he was wounded again in combat! Thus receiving his 2nd Purple heart! Lucky for him his wounds were not in a mortal area his leg, & his forearm! Both myself, & my brother have 1 each of his purple hearts! He got a 21 gun salute at his funeral in 2000! He was not just a target for the IJA, he also received other combat related items!

Just a proud son!
Regards,
MD

BTW once he was saved by an Indian scout, (little beaver) while almost moving into a jungle ambush!

He told me when the troops were facing the IJA from a secure position the would shout "Tojo eats shit!!!" To the IJA guys.

Also as a student teacher once, I took 1 of my classes to the school library, & was paging through a WWII in the Pacific history book, & there on one of the pages plain as day was my dad with a obvious wound to his leg being carried from the field by 2 other troopers! It was erie, because of time I had to leave, since then I have never seen that photo again!??

He also was in stories in the Chicago Tribune, & Life Magazine, or so I've been told??



Your poignant story has a resonance with me, Dave.

There’s some famous footage of Winston Churchill visiting the British and New Zealand troops of the Eight Army in the Alamein Line in August 1942. I’d been watching this on TV on one of those documentaries that are often broadcast to commemorate the Second World War. Amongst the soldiers lining the roadside was one who looked astonishingly like my dad. Shortly after seeing the vignette, my older brother phoned me and said he’d just seen a newsreel film of the war in North Africa, and he was convinced that he’d seen Dad .

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/9/2023 12:44:44 AM
Quote:
Hi Dan,

Thanks for your interest in my late father, John, In answer to your question about involvement at Milne Bay, no he wasn't there. He was with the 1st Cavalry Division, (they had a horse on their insignia) their attack on New Guinea came up the coast at Aitape, he received his first purple heart from a wound he received there in heavy combat!

He was proud to be in this 1st Cavalry Division, ( one of the most decorated divisions of the US Army) singing to me some a song he learned In the states during training, he actually had a US steed that he rode, singing a silly song to me as a kid, " the cavalry, the cavalry, with the dust behind their ears". He once gave the great actor Gary Cooper his riding stick, when Coops visited the troops in New Guinea!

Then he fought in the Admiralty Islands, then finally Luzon in the Philippines, where he was wounded again in combat! Thus receiving his 2nd Purple heart! Lucky for him his wounds were not in a mortal area his leg, & his forearm! Both myself, & my brother have 1 each of his purple hearts! He got a 21 gun salute at his funeral in 2000! He was not just a target for the IJA, he also received other combat related items!

Just a proud son!
Regards,
MD

BTW once he was saved by an Indian scout, (little beaver) while almost moving into a jungle ambush!

He told me when the troops were facing the IJA from a secure position the would shout "Tojo eats shit!!!" To the IJA guys.

Also as a student teacher once, I took 1 of my classes to the school library, & was paging through a WWII in the Pacific history book, & there on one of the pages plain as day was my dad with a obvious wound to his leg being carried from the field by 2 other troopers! It was erie, because of time I had to leave, since then I have never seen that photo again!??

He also was in stories in the Chicago Tribune, & Life Magazine, or so I've been told??



The US 1st Cavalry, "Hell for Leather" in World War Two is one the least appreciated US Army units that served throughout the war, Pacific and Europe. The 1st Cav achieved a marvelous record during war in the Pacific accumulating 521 day's of total combat with 4.055 causalities, of which is an incredible and fortunate stat of the ratio of causalities per days of combat, 7.78/day.

You mentioned the 1st Cav's campaigns MD and your dad's service before, for some reason Milne Bay popped into my thoughts so thank you for clarifying the additional information you posted. I will confess, I spent about an hour after reading about the picture you saw of your father wounded and that you had not seen it ever since, searching the internet to see what I could find. No luck so far but I intend to refine my search and see what I may possibly find.

Only seven (7) US divisions spent more than 500 days in combat, order as follows:

- 654 days 32nd Infantry "Red Arrows", Pacific Theater (PTO)
- 600 days 23rd Infantry "Americal", PTO

- 592 days 37th Infantry, "Buckeyes", PTO
- 531 days 3rd Infantry, "Rock of the Marne", European Theater (ETO)
- 521 days 1st Cav, "Hell for Leather", PTO
- 511 days 35th Infantry, "Thunderbirds", ETO
- 500 days 34th Infantry, Red Bull", ETO

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/9/2023 7:33:30 AM


Your poignant story has a resonance with me, Dave.

There’s some famous footage of Winston Churchill visiting the British and New Zealand troops of the Eight Army in the Alamein Line in August 1942. I’d been watching this on TV on one of those documentaries that are often broadcast to commemorate the Second World War. Amongst the soldiers lining the roadside was one who looked astonishingly like my dad. Shortly after seeing the vignette, my older brother phoned me and said he’d just seen a newsreel film of the war in North Africa, and he was convinced that he’d seen Dad .

Regards, Phil


Hi Phil,

I'm sure a fair amount of surviving family have had instances like ours. It is emotionally moving to have some vivid part of our father's campaign jump out at you, I think it's neat we both experienced it. To think with the advent of photography just prior to the Civil War, that those families looking at Mathew Brady's photos may have been some of the first!?

Thanks for sharing,
Dave
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/9/2023 7:41:56 AM




The US 1st Cavalry, "Hell for Leather" in World War Two is one the least appreciated US Army units that served throughout the war, Pacific and Europe. The 1st Cav achieved a marvelous record during war in the Pacific accumulating 521 day's of total combat with 4.055 causalities, of which is an incredible and fortunate stat of the ratio of causalities per days of combat, 7.78/day.

You mentioned the 1st Cav's campaigns MD and your dad's service before, for some reason Milne Bay popped into my thoughts so thank you for clarifying the additional information you posted. I will confess, I spent about an hour after reading about the picture you saw of your father wounded and that you had not seen it ever since, searching the internet to see what I could find. No luck so far but I intend to refine my search and see what I may possibly find.

Only seven (7) US divisions spent more than 500 days in combat, order as follows:

- 654 days 32nd Infantry "Red Arrows", Pacific Theater (PTO)
- 600 days 23rd Infantry "Americal", PTO

- 592 days 37th Infantry, "Buckeyes", PTO
- 531 days 3rd Infantry, "Rock of the Marne", European Theater (ETO)
- 521 days 1st Cav, "Hell for Leather", PTO
- 511 days 35th Infantry, "Thunderbirds", ETO
- 500 days 34th Infantry, Red Bull", ETO

Dan




Hi Dan,

I also continue to page through WWII texts on the Pacific theatre, no luck yet! Nice of you to give it the old college try! I'm sure the " Hell for leather " boys are glad to be remembered by us!

Thanks again,
Dave
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/9/2023 7:52:02 AM
Hi MHO,

Also yesterday 8-8 in history check these out! Comments? On events no discussed yet??

1588 the English fleet defeats the Spanish Armada, how big was this to naval history!? Thanks Bri. good points!

1846 the Wilmont Proviso, how did this effect slavery & the CW. Anyone??

1945 the Allies sign the London Agreement! What was it about?? Comments?

2000 The CSA submarine Hunlley's weakage was discovered in Charleston SC harbor! What say you about the 1st military sub!? I knew the guys who helped find it!? Any websites or posts on this ship!??

Today, 8-9 events in history! Posts welcome! Anyone??

1173 the Leaning Tower of Pisa is completed, how did it get its list?? Comments?

1814 the southern native Americans are forced to give up.much of their SW US lands to Andrew Jackson who was not a friend of the tribes! Some say Jackson was the worst US President with regards to the Native Americans? What say you??

1945 A 2nd Atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki, if the Japanese had know this was the last A bomb the US had? Would they have surrendered?? Comments?

1988 the Oilers trade Wayne Gretsky to LA!? Where they nuts?? Why? Comments??

1995 the leader of the Grateful Dead, Jerry Garcia really was dead! What happened? Anyone?

Regards,
MD



----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/9/2023 11:27:59 AM
Quote:
1945 A 2nd Atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki, if the Japanese had know this was the last A bomb the US had? Would they have surrendered?? Comments?

Regards,
MD


From my understanding, a third bomb would be ready to drop on Japan by August 19-20, approximately, the development of more atomic bombs was just a matter of time, which, the planning for the invasion of Japan, Operations Olympic and Coronet had planning to use the bombs in a more tactical sense. Japan picked on Korea and wide swaths of China over running those countries peasants easily. When Japan attacked on December 7/8, 1941, they did so against countries that were not developed for war, their reigning countries may have been to some extent based on the armies and navies but overall, Japan was beating up peasants and what they arrogantly believed was a Pacifist USA, which all things being equal we were. But that awoke the giant and the giant eventually dropped the a-bombs on them and had more in development.

Japan and the world were fortunate that Japan surrendered after Nagasaki.

Dan

Edit The "third bomb", was intended to be dropped on Tokyo.
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/9/2023 3:19:43 PM
Quote:
1814 the southern native Americans are forced to give up.much of their SW US lands to Andrew Jackson who was not a friend of the tribes! Some say Jackson was the worst US President with regards to the Native Americans? What say you??


The indigenous people of the US certainly took it on the chin after the War of 1812. The British had promised them a homeland in the Ohio Valley area but with the Treaty of Ghent and despite a clause that assured that Indian lands would be respected, it did not happen. William Henry Harrison divided and conquered and negotiated individual deals with native tribes in the area. Not all were honoured fully and that policy continued in the south.

Andrew Jackson waged war against the SW indigenous people including Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creeks and later the Seminoles in Florida. Some suggested that as a land speculator Jackson had a vested interest in defeating these people. This was bloody combat and while the Indians did harm to some settlers who had moved into their lands, Jackson was involved in some terrible massacres.

The final battle against the Creeks was a slaughter as about 1000 warriors were trapped by Jackson's troops and Indian allies.

Unfortunately some of the attacks took the lives of Indians allied with the US during the War of 1812. Even this angered Andrew Jackson.

The US signed treaties with the individual tribes




Once President, Jackson championed a bill called the Removal Act of 1831. This authorized the forced removal of Indians from the east side of the Mississippi to the west. The Choctaws went first with the other four "civilized Indian" tribes to follow. The Cherokee were last with their removal partly motivated by the discovery of gold on their land in Georgia.

The Cherokees resisted but diplomatically. They sent representatives to Washington to negotiate but to no avail.

Forced to march from their territory, they wound up in territory that would become Oklahoma.

This "Trail of Tears" as the First Nations call it has been described as ethnic cleansing by some. Thousands died of disease and exposure before reaching their destination.

Jackson sounds like an unsavoury character to me. Perhaps someone will weigh in with his more redeeming qualities.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/9/2023 8:11:39 PM
See what I mean George,

Andrew Jackson's resume reads like a Native American Night mare!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 4:11:53 AM
Quote:


Jackson sounds like an unsavoury character to me. Perhaps someone will weigh in with his more redeeming qualities.

Cheers,

George


Hi George,

Jackson recognised the Republic of Texas as one of the very last acts of his presidency, setting the US on the path to war with Mexico. The expansion of slavery into the southwest also put the US on an inevitable course of conflict and turmoil on this matter. You're right that Jackson instigated horrors against the Indian tribes, the ramifications of which are still felt to this day.

He appears to have been a stubborn and short tempered man, who was used to getting his way. If we are to talk of redemption, the best I can offer is that he formalised trade relations with the European powers, setting the US on a path to taking its place in the world. Prior to Jackson's presidency, there were many in the US who would have been quite happy to never hear from the Old World again.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 7:06:58 AM
Quote:
Quote:


Jackson sounds like an unsavoury character to me. Perhaps someone will weigh in with his more redeeming qualities.

Cheers,

George


Hi George,

Jackson recognised the Republic of Texas as one of the very last acts of his presidency, setting the US on the path to war with Mexico. The expansion of slavery into the southwest also put the US on an inevitable course of conflict and turmoil on this matter. You're right that Jackson instigated horrors against the Indian tribes, the ramifications of which are still felt to this day.

He appears to have been a stubborn and short tempered man, who was used to getting his way. If we are to talk of redemption, the best I can offer is that he formalised trade relations with the European powers, setting the US on a path to taking its place in the world. Prior to Jackson's presidency, there were many in the US who would have been quite happy to never hear from the Old World again.

Cheers,

Colin



Thanks Colin. Good information about Jackson. I didn't know that he was in office when the Republic of Texas was recognized. That republic lasted fewer than ten years. I wonder why the US didn't just annex it in the first place.

Cheers,

George
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 8:35:17 AM
George,

Jackson was very much for annexation of Texas and any other territories on the continent the US could get its hands on. Some were opposed to this on many grounds, such as being anti-imperialist; not wishing to allow opportunities for growth of slavery; not wanting the federal government to become stronger; not wanting the slavery issue to come to a head; not wishing to antagonise Mexico or the European powers; concerns about the Indians; and so forth.

Ultimately, Texas was annexed and the US fought Mexico and gained New Mexico and California. Some also wished for the whole of Mexico to be brought into the fold. How different the world would look today if that had been the case.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 8:53:22 AM
George, & Colin,

My brother used to work at a Indian Casino, & Tribesmen would curse the name Jackson when ever they heard it!? & then on the other hand, Andrew Jackson is also obviously on one of our currencies most used bills, the Twenty! Shows the reverence he is held by the white governing population!!? What say you??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 9:11:38 AM
Hi Dave,

Not being an American citizen I couldn't possibly comment!

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 9:13:33 AM
Today 8-10 in world history,

610, the date when Mohammed 1st learned of the Quran, what do you think of the Quran, is it a peaceful book??

1776, today over a month later the word reaches London about the Colonies, Declaration of Independence! It says something about transportation back then!? How was it received by the beloved king of England??

1821 Missouri admitted as the 24th state how will this influence the Civil War? Anyone??

1827 race riots in Cincinnati, over 1000 blacks leave for Canada! Was Canada the land of freedom, for slaves, & blacks?? Comments, anyone??

1906 the Pope condemns French law on the "separation of Church, & state! What's your take on the separation of Church, & State?? Anyone??

Just a few events,

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 9:16:15 AM
Quote:
Hi Dave,

Not being an American citizen I couldn't possibly comment!
Cheers,

Colin



Sorry Colin,

I forgot, your from the Mother Country! At least I think Scotland was back then??

Good day, from the Colonies! ☺
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 9:18:52 AM
Quote:
George,

Jackson was very much for annexation of Texas and any other territories on the continent the US could get its hands on. Some were opposed to this on many grounds, such as being anti-imperialist; not wishing to allow opportunities for growth of slavery; not wanting the federal government to become stronger; not wanting the slavery issue to come to a head; not wishing to antagonise Mexico or the European powers; concerns about the Indians; and so forth.

Ultimately, Texas was annexed and the US fought Mexico and gained New Mexico and California. Some also wished for the whole of Mexico to be brought into the fold. How different the world would look today if that had been the case.

Cheers,

Colin


The US felt that it was destined to absorb all of British North America and as you say, had designs on Mexico. Certainly the world map would have changed considerably had the US been successful. Fortunately the US no longer seems to be hell bent on land acquisition and the countries of North America including the Caribbean nations live, for the most part, in an atmosphere of co-operation; Cuba notwithstanding.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 10:15:50 AM
Quote:
827 race riots in Cincinnati, over 1000 blacks leave for Canada! Was Canada the land of freedom, for slaves, & blacks?? Comments, anyone??


Irish immigrants and free blacks were competing for jobs. And they fought each other in those riots. I thought that the riots were in 1829 though and the free black community decided that it would seek greener pastures where black people could own land and work.

The final straw for the black people of Cincinnati was the passage of anti-black legislation. Ohio state laws already existed that were supposed to restrict the number of black people who could move to Cincinnati. The town council decided to enforce them strictly in 1829 because the black population was burgeoning.

The "Black Laws" had come into effect in 1807 shortly after Ohio was admitted as a state, a free state. The laws restricted the number of black people who could move into an area. Employers could be fined if they hired a black person who could not present papers to prove his freedom. Black people were forbidden to testify against white people in court. New black settlers were required to file a $500 bond.

The 1804 Black Codes. An interesting view of the past in a free state

[Read More]


In 1829, black leaders in Cincinnati sent a delegation into Upper Canada, British North America and sought permission to purchase land and to establish a settlement. They contacted the Lt. Gov. and he agreed and put them in touch with the Canada Company which had been established by the British with the purpose of colonizing Upper Canada.

The Canada Company sold them tracts of land in SW Upper Canada, not too far from Lake Erie and Lake Huron. The settlement was named Wilberforce by the black founders. They named it after the British abolitionist, William Wilberforce.

This plaque was erected near the site of the settlement. It has been replaced because it claims, wrongly, that fugitive slaves founded the settlement.



new plaque



As I understand it, there were black people from other places than Cincinnati who also joined the migration. From what I have read I think that the numbers may have been exaggerated. By the mid 1830's there were about 150-200 black families living in the Wilberforce Settlement. By the 1850's there was only a handful of families left.

There were far more successful black settlements in Upper Canada than was Wilberforce. Buxton is one. Chatham is another.

Many of the Cincinnati emigrés returned to Cincinnati once the Black Code laws were repealed in the 1850's I believe.

So was Canada the land of the free? I would say that for enslaved black people certainly Canada became a haven for fugitives. Upper Canada was the first jurisdiction in the Empire to establish a law to limit slavery in the colony though it did not abolish it completely. The 1793 law simply said that no more slaves could be brought into UC and that the children of enslaved black people who had come north with their Loyalist masters would be freed at the age of 25. It was a start.

And the British Empire would abolish slavery in 1833 which would make any part of the Empire attractive to the enslaved.

But the Wilberforce Settlement was not populated by black fugitives. These were free people seeking a better life.

And I suppose that it was better for a time. But it would be incorrect and somewhat Pollyannaish to suggest that Upper Canada residents welcomed black people with open arms. They had to fight for their rights as British subjects and against discrimination. Many did quite well and Wilberforce was a thriving black community for a little over 10 years. There are descendants of the original families living there. But the settlement is now a historical footnote.

Cheers,

George



DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/10/2023 11:42:13 AM
Quote:
George, & Colin,

My brother used to work at a Indian Casino, & Tribesmen would curse the name Jackson when ever they heard it!? & then on the other hand, Andrew Jackson is also obviously on one of our currencies most used bills, the Twenty! Shows the reverence he is held by the white governing population!!? What say you??

Regards,
MD


As the Treasury Department makes such decisions, they either held Jackson in "reverence" or sent out a politically woke message back in 1928 the year Jackson appeared on the $20 bill, as far as the regulations are for now, we will never know the true reason why Jackson is on the $20 bill which has never stopped any man or woman from spending it.

Dan

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/11/2023 8:56:35 AM
Today 8-11 in history, the following events occurred! Comments??

1919 Germany declares itself a republic, was it still considered a republic during WWII?? Anyone?

1964, The Beatles 1st album a Hard Days Night starts Beatles Mania! Do you consider them the #1 rock band of all time?? Comments?

2014 Comedian Robin Williams commits suicide! Why would someone so successful do such a thing? Others like him have also done it?? Comments?

9-12 tomorrow in history! New topics? Anyone?

1676 King Phillips War, What if the natives had concentrated their tribes & power early on in Colonial History, could they have driven the Europeans away?? What say you??

1877 Edison invents the Phonograph! What were his best inventions? Anyone??

1944 Joseph Kennedy killed in combat, some say he was to be Presidential!? What say you??

1961 the Commies begin building the Berlin Wall, how effective was it?? Anyone??

Just a few topics, any comments or other new ones??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/11/2023 11:59:49 AM
Quote:
1877 Edison invents the Phonograph! What were his best inventions? Anyone??



Which inventions were actually his alone, and the product of his creative mind? How many did he appropriate or improve upon the work of others? Even the phonograph was the product of the inventions of the telegraph and the telephone. The man was a marketing genius though and his team at Menlo Park were a creative lot. That doesn't mean that he wasn't a brilliant man but we should examine the work of the people who invented things that Edison would improve upon and then patent.

The phonograph was a great invention and it seems to me that Bell who had invented the telephone two years before Edison invented the phonograph, took the Edison product and improved upon it. The telephone research was an important contribution to the development of the phonograph.

Cheers,

George




OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/11/2023 12:30:50 PM
I've read that he demanded that his name be on any patent application coming from the work in his shops. First name, of course.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/11/2023 8:17:27 PM
Quote:
1919 Germany declares itself a republic, was it still considered a republic during WWII?? Anyone?


Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated in 1919 and the Weimar Republic was declared. It lasted until 1933.

Germany was a country in chaos after WW1. The economy was in tatters and there was dissent on the streets because of inflation.

It got worse when the Treaty of Versailles was signed as the cost of reparations was added to the already stretched budget of the government. The government decided to just print money and circulate it which of course devalued it.

We all have seen photos of Germans carrying all their worthless marks in a wheelbarrow.



woman buying vegetables with a basket full of money



The article below says that by 1923 as US dollar was worth one trillion marks. Hard to believe.

[Read More]

Is it a coincidence that 1923 was the year in which Hitler and his Nazi party attempted to overthrow the government? He failed in 1923 but he didn't disappear as we well know. This was the famous Beer Hall Putsch.

The Great Depression hurt many countries but for a country like Germany it was disastrous. Foreign investment dried up, unemployment increased and businesses were lost. People were fearful for their country and especially fearful of the rise of the communists.

But there was an alternative in the Nazi Party and in 1932 the Nazis were the largest party in the German Parliament. By 1933 Hitler was the Chancellor and he was legally appointed by the President, Paul Hindenburg and he quickly suspended civil liberties as per a clause in the constitution. As I understand it what he imposed was constitutionally legal but I do not know the German constitution during the years of the Weimar Republic.

Hitler introduced a law that allowed him to pass laws without Parliamentary discussion or approval. This was the Enabling Act of 1933. The Act passed because the Nazis prevented all the Communists and some of the Social Democrats who were members of Parliament from taking their seats. They were held in protective custody in camps. And so the Nazis in Parliament aided by some others were able to pass the Enabling Act as they had the 2/3 majority of votes to bring it about.

This legislation allowed Hitler and the Nazis to pass more legislation without consultation and approval of Parliament. Even the President, Hindenburg could not veto the legislation and he died in 1934. The President sits above the Chancellor in the political hierarchy and when he passed, there was no check on Hitler. Hitler abolished the office of President and declared himself Fuhrer.

And Germany became a dictatorship.

I wonder why the judiciary didn't challenge this legislation. Were they intimidated even in 1933?

Cheers,

George



Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/11/2023 8:43:42 PM
Quote:
1877 Edison invents the Phonograph! What were his best inventions? Anyone??


Quote:
Which inventions were actually his alone, and the product of his creative mind? How many did he appropriate or improve upon the work of others? Even the phonograph was the product of the inventions of the telegraph and the telephone. The man was a marketing genius though and his team at Menlo Park were a creative lot. That doesn't mean that he wasn't a brilliant man but we should examine the work of the people who invented things that Edison would improve upon and then patent.

The phonograph was a great invention and it seems to me that Bell who had invented the telephone two years before Edison invented the phonograph, took the Edison product and improved upon it. The telephone research was an important contribution to the development of the phonograph.

George, you make your point, I think.

I would argue differently, working with the assumption that electricity was the focal point of much investigation, and that many applications (such as both Bell’s and Edison’s) were really manifestations of (findings about the qualities of) the concept of electricity itself. Marconi, Morse, Bell and Edison each contributed to the harnessing of electricity to human use. There’s enough room for them all.

Think, also, about flight. The Wright Brothers get the credit for first powered, controlled flight, though it seems to me their first flight may have gone further without the weight of the engine. But each attempt that day increased time and distance in air. Wind and the slope of the land may have been major players, but anybody interested in aeronautics at the time were aware that four basic qualities were critical to flight. The Wrights didn’t invent flight; they were the first to achieve it.

Same argument could be used for research in atomic energy. Think of Niels Bohr, Werner Heissenberg, Enrico Fermi, Albert Einstein and many others, up to and including Oppenheimer; add in the Curies doing basic lab work nd dying for their efforts.I wouldn’t want to suggest any of these deserves the honour of unleashing the destructive power of the atom.

MD, some comments in passing that may be interesting to you in particular, given your interest in maritime history. I have three Edison products: two Ediphones, and a not very early Edison phonograph. The phonograph was used (I assume, for entertainment) when my grandfather was keeper of Point Atkinson Light House, at the north entrance to Vancouver Roads (Burrard Inlet). My dad never talked about the Edison – he talked about the music made by he family (parents and as many as six of seven sons, all playing instruments to entertain themselves).I assume the Edison was there to entertain guests and adventurers; my grandfather was a federally appointed civil servant, and was expected to greet and welcome visitors.

In addition to the Edison phono, I have some 187 cyllinders of music, nearly all in playing condition. I’ve listened to most; my favourite on is what I understand to be a popular ACW song, “One Vacant Chair”.

Nuff said
Cheers
Brian G



----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/12/2023 8:24:30 AM
MHO,

9-12 today in world history! Any New topics? Anyone?

1676 King Phillips War, What if the natives had concentrated their tribes & power early on in Colonial History, could they have driven the Europeans away?? What say you??

1877 Edison invents the Phonograph! What were his best inventions? Thanks George, & Brian, for your takes on it!

1944 Joseph Kennedy killed in combat, some say he was to be Presidential!? What say you??

1961 the Commies begin building the Berlin Wall, how effective was it?? Anyone??

Any more comments or other new events not discussed yet?
Regards,
MD


BTW Brian, & George,

Sometimes you see dollar signs in posts, George your wheel barrows full of pre 1933 German Marks, would probably be worth something to collectors today. & Brian those antique Edison Music cylinders and player could be worth a pretty penny today? Cha ching!!!

Also the late great Tennessee Ernie Ford, remember him, he for one, did that song One Vacant Chair from the CW Era!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/12/2023 3:54:40 PM
Hi Brian,

You mention your family & its part of history with the Port Atkinson lighthouse out side of Vancouver, Canada. If I recall wasnt your Grand Father Thomas Grafton, & your Father Lawrence Grafton's had a prominent history with the Port Atkinson Lighthouse, (why they are even listed on the historical plaque, at the site)! Very sad & tragic how your grandfather was killed (1933) by a dynamite explosion, while using the explosive as A fishing method?! From 1910 to 1935 Grafton's manned this vital light for the harbor of Vancouver! I if I may, invite all of MHO to check out this beautiful light by searching for it on sites like Youtube, or googling the history of Lighthouse keepers of the Port Atkinson, BC. Canada, Lighthouse!! These gentlemen also assisted for many years at Port Atkinson, before they were the head-keepers, amazing men!! Tell Bri what you think!??

Also your dad taking over, despite what he went through with his fathers traumatic fatal death, & his recovery of his beloved fathers body, was very admirable! I without realizing it. I was actually across the inner passage from it when I took the train trip between your town Victoria, & the town of Nanaimo, on beautiful Vancouver Island, in the early 80's! From what I understand not a single life was lost while this lighthouse was on watch! Why they even kept up a very necessary fog horn!!? From what I know the area is often very foggy, & 1st Nations near these shores used to feed & clothe themselves from things washed off ships passing through, so not sure how accurate the no fatality claim is??? Sad that they didn't let your dad Lawrence continue as the keeper after 1935!

Still your family had such a history with this famous historical & vital light to the area, even helping with coastal defense during WWII!? You must have spent some time visiting the light in realitively recent times?? Any other things about this personal history, you might share, but I understand if not!? Also as important as this job was it had to be a lonely but therapeutic existance, why your Grandfather goes back even to the original wooden structure 1910-1912!? What nautical history he must have observed!? Can you imagine the beautiful sailing vessels alone? & then the beautiful historic steamships, even warships, & coastguard vessels!? all on a beautiful coast! I in a way I envy him!!? But then again think of the physical & long hour demands of the early lighthouse keepers!? We can't even imagine it!??

BTW a very beautiful picturesque, lighthouse, I like, many people, love lighthouses!!

Thanks again,
Regards,
MD

BTW here in Michigan you can stay at certain lighthouses (be a lighthouse keeper, kind off?) You get to stay & live there for free, just be a guide, & do a little work?? I been thinking about trying it??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/12/2023 8:41:06 PM
Dave, thank you for a flattering commentary about my family’s links with Pt. Atkinson Light. Without getting at all silly about it, I am proud of my family’s link with “Point Ackie”, as we called it. I’ve learned to live with some of the inaccurate descriptions concerning my father’s time there, and I’m still hearing stories which rewrite the death of my grandfather.

I must admit that for some reason I am in possession of the Point Atkinson Light log running from 15 August 1908 to 28 Feb 1910. By rights, it probably belongs to Canada’s federal government, but it records the death of my grandfather’s first wife Annabel (their courtship is an ugly frontier story in its own right), and the introduction of my grandmother, Emma, who travelled from Minnesota to be with her friend Annabel (?) during her final illness and then stayed on as my grandfather’s second wife (and mother of my father).

If ever I cease posting, it will probably be because either the RCMP or CSIS has come and taken me away for possession of Crown property!

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/12/2023 8:41:45 PM
dup
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2023 7:18:51 AM
Hey guys,

A few 8-13 events were,

1521 the great Aztec Empire falls to a few Spanish soldiers!? How can this be?? Anyone?

1781 the Swamp Fox, Francis Marion ambushes 450 Loyalists outside of Charleston SC! Marion is legendary now, in this area, many say the Mel Gibson movie the patriot is about the Swamp Fox!? Comments anyone??

1898 the US liberates Manila from the Spanish! What say you?

1926 Fidel Castro was born, he brought Communism to Cuba & the Western Hemisphere!? Comments?

1961 Berlin is divided, perhaps the biggest Cold War event!? Did it lead to major arms build ups?? & NATO & Eastern Blocks forming? Isn't the Eastern Bloc, actually just one entity, the Soviet Union?? What say you??

1995 MLB great Mickey Mantle of the Yankees passes away at 63, how can a athlete like Mantle die at such an early age? Comments on the Mick!??

Comments? &
Regards,
MD


BTW Hi Brian,

Crown Property, Crown Property! I hope the RCMP don't come after you, remember, Paul Revere, the Red Coats are coming! The Red Coats are coming! ? ☺

BTW you could probably write a book about the adventures of your grandfather, & your dad!?? I know I would buy a copy!!!

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2023 8:11:53 AM
Quote:
1926 Fidel Castro was born, he brought Communism to Cuba & the Western Hemisphere!? Comments?


Eventually, yes he did. In a sense, he was compelled to do so as he failed to garner support for his revolution from the US. He tried. After taking power he went to Washington for talks and that is where he was snubbed.

The US was upset that their man in Havana, Fulgencio Batista, had been routed. Batista was a corrupt man but he did little to stem the control of the economy by foreign nationals.

The Cuban people were seeing little benefit from the type of capitalism practised on that island. They were exploited and kept poor. I note that the North American worker today is still just a liability on the company ledger books with employers willing to limit wages and cut the number of workers in order to meet projections promised to shareholders.

After being snubbed in the US, Castro nationalized all industries. He took possession of what had been private property owned by foreign nationals, mostly Americans but not all. The US refused to trade with Cuba and we are all aware of the attempts to overthrow Castro with the Bay of Pigs fiasco being the most prominent.

So Castro was looking for a benefactor and found a willing one in the USSR. Was Castro a communist right from the get go? I don't think so but he eventually embraced that ideology.

Sometimes I wonder whether a more collective approach to governance would better meet the needs of the people of poorer countries. Many other countries govern as social democracies. They are not communist which demands centralized control of the economy. But they do have a larger social safety net. Some have a less acrimonious relationship between labour and business owners and the government while employing a more collaborative approach to negotiations between the three, to meet the needs of the worker, the business and the country.

There are other ways to govern than in a strict capitalist system. Again, for a country like Cuba, perhaps some form of communism works better for a time anyway. We cannot know whether the Cubans would have allowed their system of government to evolve because they have been dealt conditions designed to keep them in poverty and to create unrest among the population. The government takes measures to maintain the status quo with respect to governing.

Lastly, Cuba has been severely limited over the last 50 years by the continuing US trade embargo. I think that it is time to get rid of that embargo and to embark on a voyage of reconciliation. The Cubans have offered compensation to foreign nationals from other nations who lost assets when Cuba nationalized industries and properties. They would do the same with Americans if permitted to trade openly. We see communism as a severely limiting ideology. Some fear it without knowing much about it.

I am certainly no expert on communism but I do think that Cuba deserves an opportunity to govern itself as it sees fit while being allowed to become a fuller participant in the international community.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2023 1:50:53 PM
Quote:
1898 the US liberates Manila from the Spanish! What say you?


Interesting topic, MD. This was not the US's finest moment. The war with Spain was likely not for valid reasons and the annexation of all of Spain's extra-territorial properties was the US first foray into the world of imperialism.

With the defeat of Spain, the Philippines did declare independence and the formation of a republic under Emilio Aguinaldo. Now I realize that Aguilaldo's revolutionaries seized power and declared that they were in charge. and when the war against the US came it was the Philippine National Government against the might of the US. It took three years of bloody conflict to subdue the Philippines

The US did promise the Filipinos that they would be independent some day but on a timetable set by the US. That did not please the rebellious faction in Philippines that was anxious to remove all foreign powers from positions of control in their country. For those Filipinos, the US did not liberate them. They only exchanged one imperial power for another. And so they had to fight another imperial power.

The war in the Philippines that ensued saw thousands of people killed at the hands of American soldiers and many US service people lost their lives as well.

Some Filipino historians call the actions of the US in the Philippines, a genocide. To be sure, atrocities were committed during the war by both sides but the US adopted scorched earth policies and they detained thousands in camps where many died. I have read estimates that say that 4000 Americans died and at least 40,000 Filipinos. These were combatants. The death toll of civilians has been estimated at least a quarter of a million running to over 1 million people.

The following is a piece written by a student of Cuban descent who studied at Santa Clara State University. It gives some insight as to what modern Filipino historians are trying to teach the people. Filipinos of the age of this author were taught nothing of the war against the US. It was expunged from their curriculum. Some food for thought here.

The Filipino Genocide by Andrew Clem

[Read More]

The following more scholarly article is by Paul Kramer, an Associate Professor of History at Vanderbilt. The title is Race-Making and Colonial Violence in the U.S. Empire: The Philippine-American War as Race War

[Read More]

I know that this is difficult reading for those who have been taught that the current relationship between the Philippines and the US is because of the generosity and beneficence of the US after annexing the Philippines after the Spanish-American war of 1898. In reality, it was necessary to subjugate the Filipinos in order to take control of the islands.

I must note that at the time that the US was annexing Cuba, Guam, Puerto Rico and then the Philippines, there was considerable protest in the US itself. The US was never an imperial power in the extra-territorial sense, and some politicians and the people were appalled that this nation founded upon the principles of self determination was now engaging in the same behaviour as the European powers that had taken countries for their own and from one of whom the US had fought for its independence. The American Anti-Imperialist League was an active opponent of its own government at this time.

We all have to confront our skeletons. Canada is doing that right now as more information about the treatment of the First Nations assumes greater prominence in the national consciousness.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2023 8:29:56 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1926 Fidel Castro was born, he brought Communism to Cuba & the Western Hemisphere!? Comments?


Eventually, yes he did. In a sense, he was compelled to do so as he failed to garner support for his revolution from the US. He tried. After taking power he went to Washington for talks and that is where he was snubbed.

The US was upset that their man in Havana, Fulgencio Batista, had been routed. Batista was a corrupt man but he did little to stem the control of the economy by foreign nationals.

The Cuban people were seeing little benefit from the type of capitalism practised on that island. They were exploited and kept poor. I note that the North American worker today is still just a liability on the company ledger books with employers willing to limit wages and cut the number of workers in order to meet projections promised to shareholders.

After being snubbed in the US, Castro nationalized all industries. He took possession of what had been private property owned by foreign nationals, mostly Americans but not all. The US refused to trade with Cuba and we are all aware of the attempts to overthrow Castro with the Bay of Pigs fiasco being the most prominent.

So Castro was looking for a benefactor and found a willing one in the USSR. Was Castro a communist right from the get go? I don't think so but he eventually embraced that ideology.

Sometimes I wonder whether a more collective approach to governance would better meet the needs of the people of poorer countries. Many other countries govern as social democracies. They are not communist which demands centralized control of the economy. But they do have a larger social safety net. Some have a less acrimonious relationship between labour and business owners and the government while employing a more collaborative approach to negotiations between the three, to meet the needs of the worker, the business and the country.

There are other ways to govern than in a strict capitalist system. Again, for a country like Cuba, perhaps some form of communism works better for a time anyway. We cannot know whether the Cubans would have allowed their system of government to evolve because they have been dealt conditions designed to keep them in poverty and to create unrest among the population. The government takes measures to maintain the status quo with respect to governing.

Lastly, Cuba has been severely limited over the last 50 years by the continuing US trade embargo. I think that it is time to get rid of that embargo and to embark on a voyage of reconciliation. The Cubans have offered compensation to foreign nationals from other nations who lost assets when Cuba nationalized industries and properties. They would do the same with Americans if permitted to trade openly. We see communism as a severely limiting ideology. Some fear it without knowing much about it.

I am certainly no expert on communism but I do think that Cuba deserves an opportunity to govern itself as it sees fit while being allowed to become a fuller participant in the international community.

Cheers,

George



Hi George,

While the US Embargo hurt Cuba, A while back, much of their problems today including their poor economy are tied to the Soviet Union, Russia! They ( the Cubans) were tied to agriculture, growing & trading 1 crop, sugar! Being tied to the Soviets, they had a special trading situation with the Soviet Union, that went out the window, when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. They really took a hit, & have yet to recover!? They were trading at a 90 percent clip, with the Russians, but that's gone now, causing much of their poverty!? The Cubans also spend what little they have on social programs, their poverty is like much of Latin America, 3rd world borderline!!!

What say you?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2023 8:49:52 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1898 the US liberates Manila from the Spanish! What say you?

Interesting topic, MD.

With the defeat of Spain, the Philippines did declare independence and the formation of a Republic!!

The US did promise the Filipinos that they would be independent some day!!

I know that this is difficult reading for those who have been taught that the current relationship between the Philippines and the US is because of the generosity and beneficence of the US after annexing the Philippines after the Spanish-American war of 1898. In reality, it was necessary to subjugate the Filipinos in order to take control of the islands.

Cheers,

George




Hi George,

I do know during WWII, the US & the Philippines, were the closest allies, & they worked well together to defeat & expell the Japanese! As you know my dad was there in the middle of this fight, & he would concur with this observation on the united front presented by troops from the US, & the Philippines! What ever problems they had prior to the Japanese invasion, they certainly put them aside, & today are allies!!!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2023 9:06:17 PM
Quote:
MD, I not only have the Edison phonograph, but over the years I have used it and the music it makes in various PSAs and the like. I remember most happily using an ACW war song (“We Shall Meet, but We Shall Miss Him”) as a phone answering message during a campaign to bring a CBC station to Victoria. Both the phonograph and the cylinders were used visually for international education conferences I worked on.


The light at Point Atkinson (where both my grandfather and my father were keepers) is at the entrance to the roads and harbour of Vancouver. It is now designated a heritage structure, but is no longer manned; such structures are almost always automated now … sadly, I think.


I still have – probably illegally – Walter Erwin’s last log book, leading up to my grandfather taking over as keeper in 1910.


Here’s one link to the house, but there are many others. Some, I will admit, are unkind to my father’s time as “interim keeper” after his father’s death by dynamite explosion.

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Hi Brian,

Last year you had the above post about the topic.

I'm sure your proud of your families connections with the Point Atkinson Light, & in away it is a shame that it like most lighthouse today is automated!

Thanks for sharing it's history with us!

Regards,
MD

BTW feel free to share any other stories you have on the Grafton, lighthouse keepers!!?

Also can you make this site above an easy to access, " read more"??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/13/2023 9:21:45 PM
Quote:
While the US Embargo hurt Cuba, A while back, much of their problems today including their poor economy are tied to the Soviet Union, Russia! They ( the Cubans) were tied to agriculture, growing & trading 1 crop, sugar! Being tied to the Soviets, they had a special trading situation with the Soviet Union, that went out the window, when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. They really took a hit, & have yet to recover!? They were trading at a 90 percent clip, with the Russians, but that's gone now, causing much of their poverty!? The Cubans also spend what little they have on social programs, their poverty is like much of Latin America, 3rd world borderline!!!

What say you?
MD


I don't think so MD. The US embargo has severely limited the ability of Cuba to expand its economy. Why? Because the embargo absolutely forbids US businesses from trading with Cuba at all.

The US threatens to stop financial aid to any other countries that trade with Cuba. The US also enforces the Helms-Burton Act in which it will enact sanctions against people from other countries who do business with Cuba. And the US has reopened parts of the Helms-Burton Act that allow US citizens to sue foreign companies that do business in Cuba that involves property and assets formerly owned by US citizens. The right to sue even applies to Cubans who have emigrated to the US and have taken out US citizenship.

Many nations in the world have told the US that this application of Helms-Burton is illegal under international law. The UN also contends the same thing.

I can give some examples. Canadian companies like the Bank of Nova Scotia, the National Bank of Canada and Tek have found themselves sued in US courts because they many be using buildings or other assets in Cuba that were formerly owned by US nationals or Cubans who are now Americans.

The embargo has been accused of being responsible for preventing food items and medicine from entering Cuba. Even US associations have said that the embargo has affected the nutrition and health of Cubans and that the only reason that things aren't worse is that the Cuban government spends a lot of what it has on health care and education. Still the embargo forces Cuba to ration food to its citizens.

As for reliance upon the USSR that is true. When the US closed its markets to Cuban products including sugar, Cuba approached the USSR which agreed to buy sugar in exchange for fuel. Desperate measures for Cuba.

The pandemic drove another nail into the coffin, so to speak and recovery has been slow. The pandemic killed the tourism industry which brought a lot of money into the country.
However, the Cuban government has made some improvements in the economy in an attempt to diversify it.

Cuba actually has an oil industry and there are three oil offshore oil exploration rigs in Cuban waters. Cuba leases oil exploration rights to other countries including Norway, Vietnam and Russia. There are 20 billion barrels in Cuban oil reserves. Of course this is supposed to be a dying industry but if Cuba continues to be restricted in its ability to trade, I doubt that they will be in a hurry to shut down the fossil fuel industry.

Raul Castro has implemented some reforms that actually allow citizens to create private small and medium sized businesses. As of this year, more than 8,000 private businesses have been registered with the Communist government. The problem with the initiative is that most Cubans are employed in state run businesses. The new private businesses pay better salaries and the state workers have trouble shopping in those businesses because they do not make enough money. Much as in any capitalist country, they now have the haves and have-nots.

The embargo is not the sole reason that the Cuban economy is weak but it is a contributing factor, a big one. It is also responsible for some of the substandard living conditions under which the Cubans live because certain products like food and medicine are difficult to get.

Joe Biden is an enlightened politician and he seems to see the importance of support to be lent to private enterprise in Cuba. Much of this is aspirational.

Quote:
In May, 2022, the Biden administration announced a series of measures to support the Cuban private sector, including expanding the access of Cuban entrepreneurs to cloud technologies, e-commerce and electronic payment platforms. There were also mentions of microfinancing and training resources. None of the measures have been implemented to date, reportedly due to legal issues in the U.S.—specifically, difficulties in carving out commercial exceptions for private actors without running afoul of blanket restrictions under the Helms-Burton Act of 1996.
. source: America's Quarterly.

I think that it is well past time that the embargo should end. Cuba should negotiate reparations for the descendants of people who lost their assets due to Castro's nationalization plan.

It would be wonderful to have a successful ally in Cuba in North America. But they will not be amenable to foreign investment if those foreigners think that they will dictate government policy to the Cubans.

Cheers,

George

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