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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/18/2023 3:48:16 PM
Hey guys,

It was correct about Scott's Anaconda Plan! It was implemented, & was the blueprint for successfully defeating the Confederacy! What say you??

Checking 8-18 in history we see the following topics! Comments? Anyone??

1227 Genghis Khan died at age 55, he used horrific military policies to expand from Mongolia, his son would conquer even more of Asia! What's your take on the Khans??

1896 Butch Cassidy brings over 200 outlaws together into the Wild Bunch! Comments on the lawlessness of the wild west!? Anyone??

1920 the 19th Amendment passes, women can finally vote! Has it made a difference in policy??

1969 Woodstock attracts some 400,000 strong, sex starved, drug addicted dare we say hippies!? BTW I'll have what their having!? ☺

Any other new topics!?
Regards,
MD

Heading up north no computer service, early post!

& in 8-20 in history, the following, comments.Anyone??

1619 the English bring African Slaves to Jamestown, showing Colonies were purely for profit, & dooming complete freedom in the America's!? What say you??

1741, Vitus Bering discovers Alaska for the Russians, It should have been British, & later Canada's!? Any takes on this? & what of the 1st Nations??

1794 Gen. Mad Anthony Wayne wins the Battle of Fallen Timbers?? Comments on it? Anyone?

1833 Benjamin Harrison (R) wins the Presidency despite losing the popular vote by.almost 100,000 votes to Grover Cleveland! Damn the electoral college! What. Say you?? Any way Harrison.was born on this date!!

1914 the Germans capture Brussels Belgium in.WWI, where were the Allies? Comments?

1968 the Soviets invade Czechoslovakia! has anything changed.in these times, regarding Russia's aggressiveness??. What say you?

1975 the US launches Viking I to Mars!.what did they discover? Anyone??

BTW George, thanks for the great post on WWI battle of Dieppe, continue discussing!?

Summer you got to love.it!

Regards,
MD

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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/18/2023 4:43:48 PM
Quote:
BTW George, thanks for the great post on WWI battle of Dieppe, continue discussing!?


The anniversary of the Dieppe raid is tomorrow, Aug. 19. But MD, I haven't posted anything on it. Perhaps you were talking about someone else. Thanks for the reminder though.

Also MD, this is a WWII battle that took place in 1942.

I have addressed this one several times in the past. It was a debacle and just under 1000 lives of well trained soldiers were lost because of poor planning and poor decision making.

I have mentioned as well that my Uncle Bobby, Sgt. Robert Adams was shot up badly on those Dieppe beaches. He was a sapper and he and others had moved inward to the town and were successful in setting demolition charges. Upon receiving the order to leave the beaches and to head back to the landing craft, those that had not been destroyed, he took shrapnel from a mortar round that landed between him and another fellow.

Bobby had shrapnel wounds all up his left side. The other fellow was wounded on the right side. Bobby was never healthy again.

The most serious wounds were to his eyes and to his heart. He wound up in a hospital and the German doctors wanted to remove both eyes. He asked them not to do that and they relented. He spent months in a POW camp where he rarely left his bed. Finally, the Red Cross arranged a prisoner exchange of soldiers who would never fight again. It was a one for one deal and so Bobby came home.

Doctors on this side did remove his left eye and managed to save partial vision in the other. I knew him as a little kid in the '50's and I recall thinking that he looked sick and frail. And he had been a big, strapping fellow. In those days they could not remove the shrapnel in his heart and it gave out. I cannot recall the year but I was only a little kid at the time. He was a casualty of that war.

Remembering my Uncle Bobby then and all the others on the Dieppe Raid who sacrificed their lives or ended up in a POW camp for the duration of the war.

Quote:
There were 3,367 casualties, including 1,946 prisoners of war; 916 Canadians lost their lives. In addition to the 4,963 Canadian troops taking part in the raid, there were 1,075 British troops (52 fatalities), 50 of the 1st U.S. Ranger Battalion (one fatality) and 20 of the No. 10 (Inter-Allied) Commando.May 19, 2023


One of that war's great disasters. As you may imagine, this event has been analyzed and dissected by many historians, most of them Canadian. There was much anger when it was learned that this reconstituted raid should not have been sent in.










Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/18/2023 8:29:32 PM
Quote:
1741, Vitus Bering discovers Alaska for the Russians, It should have been British, & later Canada's!? Any takes on this? & what of the 1st Nations??

Don’t see why the British or (by transference) the Canadians would have any claim. Keep in mind that Russia had settlements on the Wet Coast as far south as northern California by the time the Brits and US began playing on the Pacific coast.

I’m not that au fait with Russian history, but my understanding is that through the 18th and 19th centuries Russia was behaving much like the US, extending its authority to the furthest coast. Russia was (and IIUC still is) concerned about access to open-water ports, be they in the the Black Sea, the Baltic, or the East. In WW2 Russia made an understated play for Iran; before WW1 the Battle of Tsushima Strait was a blow to their reach for southern ports.

The US bought what it thought were proprietary rights to Alaska from Russia. Many thought it was a frivolous move at the time.

Gotta go! Guests arriving within minutes!

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/20/2023 11:13:28 AM
On this day in 1619, the first African slaves landed in the English colony of Virginia. Although early numbers were low (around two dozen), by 1861 there would be nearly four million enslaved persons in the states and territories of the United States.

The ramifications of the decision to bring slaves to the English colonies are still with us today.

Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/21/2023 8:36:09 AM
_On Aug. 21, 1944 the Falaise Gap or pocket was finally closed. This resulted in the destruction of thousands of pieces of German equipment and the death and capture of thousands of men.

The pocket was supposed to have been closed in a pincer movement executed by the Canadians from the north and the Americans from the south. That the cork was not put into the neck of the bottle earlier is a matter of great controversy.

Were the Canadians too slow in moving southward? Why did Monty not commit more armour and troops? Why were the Canadians ordered to take the town of Falaise when the commander Lt. Gen. Simonds had said that that was the wrong objective? Simonds preferred to head east to close the gap at Trun and Chambois.

Why did US Gen. Bradley order the US to stop its forward advance at Argentan? Why was heading to the Seine considered a more important objective? Why did Monty support Bradley's decision?

Why was the 2nd French Armoured Division unwilling to participate in closing the gap?




We also note that when Gen. Simonds wanted to put a cork in the bottle he sent his only reserve, the Polish Armoured Division which was a battered division indeed. He wanted them to meet the Americans at Chambois

The Poles occupied a rise that was in the shape of a mace and they gave it the Polish name for that feature, Maczuga. He ordered the CDN 4th Amoured division to follow the Poles in support. Why was the 4th late in relieving the Poles on Maczuga?

The SS attacked Maczuga from inside and outside the pocket in an attempt to keep the gap open as long as possible. The Poles held the hill from Aug. 17-21 and they lost much of their armour and their men. But they held and destroyed much German equipment and enemy as they could. It is true that thousands escaped through no fault of the Poles.

When things were at their worst, the Polish commander had told his men that there was no point in surrender to the SS and that they would die on this hill.

When the Canadians arrived they could see the carnage on Hill 262, Maczuga, and as they commiserated with their Polish brothers, the engineers erected a sign that said simply, "A Polish Battlefield".

I will include two articles from the Canadian Legion Magazine in reference to the closing of the gap in general and the fight on Maczuga.

[Read More]

[Read More]

Good topic for discussion if anyone wants to shift this to the WWII section.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/21/2023 2:45:08 PM
Again, 8-20 in history, any new comments.Anyone??

1619 the English bring African Slaves to Jamestown, showing Colonies were purely for profit, & dooming complete freedom in the America's!? What say you??

1741, Vitus Bering discovers Alaska for the Russians, It should have been British, & later Canada's!? Any takes on this? & what of the 1st Nations??

1794 Gen. Mad Anthony Wayne wins the Battle of Fallen Timbers?? Comments on it? Anyone?

1833 Benjamin Harrison (R) wins the Presidency despite losing the popular vote by.almost 100,000 votes to Grover Cleveland! Damn the electoral college! What. Say you?? Any way Harrison.was born on this date!!

1914 the Germans capture Brussels Belgium in.WWI, where were the Allies? Comments?

1968 the Soviets invade Czechoslovakia! has anything changed.in these times, regarding Russia's aggressiveness??. What say you?

1975 the US launches Viking I to Mars!.what did they discover? Anyone?

Regards,
MD


BTW George, if you want to move the Battle of Falaise Gap to the WWII section, feel free!?

& Colin your right about the ramifications of the impact of slavery, still felt big time today!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/21/2023 4:30:16 PM
Quote:
1794 Gen. Mad Anthony Wayne wins the Battle of Fallen Timbers?? Comments on it? Anyone?


This battle was against the First Nations Confederation seeking to keep settlers out of the Northwest Territory in the Ohio Valley. This was the territory that the British had promised would be theirs had they won the revolutionary war. President George Washington was adamant that these lands would be settled by white people. Washington and other prominent Virginians were also land speculators with business interests in the territory.

But the US had been pacifying different tribes by making treaties with them and when settlers began to flood the territory, a confederation of FN's formed and rose up to fight against the settlements. There were two battles (Harmar and the Wabash) in which the FN destroyed American forces partly in retribution for the US policy to destroy Indian villages, growing crops and crops stored for the winter. The Battle of the Wabash (St. Clair) was particularly bad for the US with a high percentage of deaths occurring during a massacre.

And so the Battle of Fallen Timbers is often cited as a battle to seek retribution for the US. To me it is questionable as to who was seeking retribution from whom.

Major General Anthony Wayne took command of the US forces in 1792 and he set about training US forces in a more professional manner. The slaughter of US forces at the Wabash was probably because they were not well trained. Once trained he entered the territory seeking to destroy Indian villages along the Maumee River. On the way he built forts.

Note that there were still forts in the territory occupied by the British who were arming the FN's. The British had not yet left the territory despite the loss in the revolution. That would not happen until 1796 with the ratification of Jay's Treaty.

A force of 1500 FN warriors gathered in a position that had been damaged by a tornado and there were fallen trees all about hence the name of this battle. And Wayne attacked here. Initially the trees were a hindrance to the Kentucky cavalry who were part of the US force. Wayne ordered a bayonet charge anticipating that the FN would not stay to fight and they broke into open territory where the cavalry ran them down. They fled and headed to Fort Miamis still occupied by the British. They asked to be let in and the British commander refused. He knew that war with the US would probably be the result.

With that Wayne ordered the destruction of FN villages in the area and crops as well. The Confederation was fully broken when Jay's Treaty was signed in 1794 meaning that the British would be gone by 1796. Their source of arms and gunpowder would leave with them.

Broken, some chiefs signed the Treaty of Greenville in 1795 but many refused and a new Confederation of angry FN under Tecumseh would form in time for the War of 1812.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/21/2023 7:21:48 PM
Hi George,

I,ll have to check out the Fallen Timbers Battlefield, it's just south of Toledo Ohio, I go past it at least a couple of times a year!?

Thanks for the post on it!

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/21/2023 8:14:15 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

I,ll have to check out the Fallen Timbers Battlefield, it's just south of Toledo Ohio, I go past it at least a couple of times a year!?

Thanks for the post on it!

Regards,
MD


The battle actually took place almost within range of the British guns at Fort Miamis which was also on the Maumee River. I checked the maps and Fort Miamis is about 8.6 km (5.6 miles) from the Battle of Fallen Timbers monument. The small British garrison at Fort Miamis would have heard the noise of the battle not far up river. Is there anything left of that fort?

The British were present at Fort Miamis because the British and specifically, Governor John Simcoe were convinced that US Gen. Wayne was on his way to defeat them at Fort Detroit which they also continued to occupy. They and the colonists of Upper Canada still feared a US invasion as the revolutionary war had only ended about a decade before.


Simcoe was wrong though. Wayne wasn't interested in pushing the British out of the Northwest Territory. He was there to kill First Nations and to subdue all of the confederation that opposed white settlers coming to the territory.

While Wayne was fighting the FN's of the Northwest Confederation, there about 100 Canadian militia among them. They had travelled from Fort Detroit to meet Anthony Wayne's troops. I really do not know what their fate was though. Were they taken prisoner or shot on sight?

When the battle ended, the FN ran the 8 km or so to Fort Miamis only to find the gates barred to them. Tecumseh the man who would become the great warrior chief of the Shawnee and lead another confederation of FN during the War of 1812 fought at Fallen Timbers. Tecumseh would remind the British that when they sought refuge, "the gates were shut against us". This was said when the British were seeking allies against the US just before the War of 1812.

The US horsemen pursued the FN right to the gates and the FN had to flee. The horsemen paused and looked at the fort. According to the British commander at the fort, Major William Campbell, the small British garrison inside cocked their muskets, loaded their cannon and watched. They anticipated being attacked. One shot from other side could have plunged the US and GB into war once again.

But the US soldiers rode away. They had far more men available than did the British but neither side wanted to be responsible for starting a war.

They had villages to burn and crops to destroy. Apparently the destruction of property was extensive and the burning took place on both sides of the river for 32 km. It was estimated that they burned 40-60 thousand bushels of corn that had been stored for the upcoming winter.


I have to credit the website, "Early Canada History" with some of this information.

Cheers,

George


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/22/2023 9:22:52 AM
Hi George,

Your above post reminds me how historical people, & events ultimately are the permanent names for places! Like Gov. John Simcoe, Lake Simcoe, - Fort Miamis, Miami, Ohio, University, & Town, - Mad Anthony Wayne, Fort Wayne Indiana, Chief Tecumseh, Tecumseh, Michigan, & so it goes!?

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/22/2023 10:46:23 PM
Odd kind of day for English history. On 22 Aug 1485 Henry Tudor defeated Richard III in the Battle of Bosworth Field, bringing the Houses of York and Lancaster together, at least symbolically, through the marriage of Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York.

Step 157 years into the future, and on this day in 1642 Charles I, second monarch of the English House of Stuart, raised the Royal standard at Nottingham against Parliamentary forces, thus initiating the English Civil War. In 1649 it would cost Charles his head.

I could leave it at that, but think of how much went on in those relatively few years! (and, yes, I see 157 years as relatively few: my grandfather was born 167 years ago!) Seven monarchs. A rejection of papism, the establishment of a new “official faith”, and the rejection of many of the tenets of that faith by more radical beliefs. A switch from local feudal power and control to a growing national identity. Add a monarch with six wives; a monarch whose name suggests a massive slaughter of her own people; a Queen who gave name to one of the great literary ages of the ages; assaults (repelled) by the greatest power of the time (Spain and the Armada); the establishment of various colonies in the Americas; the growing power of parliament conflicting increasingly a Stuart belief in the absolute power of royalty.

That two such auspicious events should share however loosely the same date is, to me, quite spectacular!

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2023 8:58:44 AM
Today in world history:

8-23, these events happened, all posts welcome!!? Hey MHO, anyone out there???

1305 William Wallace is executed, He of course was a Scot resistance leader, the English king cruely did it!? What was his legacy?? anyone!? Also a major movie on it with Mel Gibson, Brave Heart, was it well done or not??

1514 the Ottomans, defeated the Iranians at Chaldiran! How did this battle influence the area for years to come!? Anyone??

1927 Sacco & Vanzetti were executed for murder, in a trial! That many say they were inocent!? & Were they biasly treated? They were Italians? What say you??

1939 the German-Soviet Non Aggression Pact was signed, did both Hitler, & Stalin knew it would not last? Who was the biggest instigator?? I say Adolf! What say you? Why did they even propose it? If they meant to break it?? Comments?

2011 M. Quadaffi's reign of terror ends in Lybia!.How did it come about?? Who was worse Quadaffi or Saddam Hussien? Anyone??

Any other new posts??
Regards,
MD


BTW Brian, thanks for the concise micro 157 years of English History! Quite the busy bodies there, across the pond!? ☺

Also I would remiss if I didn't mention yesterday was National Dog Day, hope you did something fun with your best friend!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2023 2:41:40 PM
Battle of Mons, part of the Battles of the Frontier took place today in 1914.

The well trained and professional but comparatively small British Expeditionary force attempted to hold the German onslaught. Despite inflicting many casualties on the Germans, they were forced to retreat. Outnumbered 2-1 eventually they could not hold.

There was tension between GB and France as the French had promised to stand at Mons but they failed to come far enough forward to protect the British flank. With news that the French had actually pulled back, the British were exposed. And so they too pulled back toward the Marne.



George


EDIT: Found a second map that shows the position of the French. Not a detailed map but it seems that the French were almost level with the British so I need someone to explain to me the concern of the British for the French deployment.


Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2023 4:02:44 PM
George,

A lot of hyperbole in the British folklore of The Great War orientates around the Battle of Mons.

The stuff of legends, literally.

Modern accounts of the battle seek to debunk the myths , to the extent that the pendulum swings too far.

A few beleaguered British battalions took the brunt of the fighting, with hundreds of their soldiers being captured as they withdrew from a salient.

The Germans did admit to suffering significant casualties from accurate British rifle fire.

British accounts of the battle inflated the German loss and made it seem like a replay of the achievements of the archers who triumphed at Crecy and Agincourt.

Regards, Phil





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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2023 4:09:57 PM
Thanks Phil, I just posted an edit to my original post. It's a map that shows the position of the BEF and the French. What was the British concern with the French position?

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2023 5:17:05 PM
Quote:
Thanks Phil, I just posted an edit to my original post. It's a map that shows the position of the BEF and the French. What was the British concern with the French position?

Cheers,

George


The French Fifth Army, under the command of General Lanrezac - a maverick by most accounts- left the British “ in the air” by making a unilateral withdrawal.

It’s still a controversial episode, with mutual recriminations.

The prospect of acting in Entente concert was thoroughly jeopardised by this French retreat.

That’s how the British perceived it.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/23/2023 6:28:32 PM
"Lanrezac's grasp of the situation and stern decision to retreat while the time remained has earned the gratitude of France. It was a pity he forgot to tell his British Allies about it." - Winston Churchill

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 4:01:07 AM
Hi George,

The withdrawal of the French 5th army left the right flank of the BEF hanging in the air and exposed to the Germans on their front and right. As the BEF was, at this point, the extreme left of the Allied line and with Lanzerac retreating rapidly south, this left the BEF at great risk of being enveloped and annihilated.

Sir John French reluctantly called the retreat when he realised his predicament; he had hoped to hold at Mons with a view to launching an attack from there in concert with Lanzerac.

From Mons started the first of the races in 1914, to get to the Marne. Smith-Dorrien’s corps made a stand at Le Cateau that, depending on who you listen to, either bought the BEF time to get away or caused unnecessary casualties and risked defeat in detail (perhaps we’ll cover this soon).

In any case, the BEF made it to the Marne, where, after SJF was convinced by Kitchener to hold his force in place and not withdraw to refit, it played a relatively minor role in pushing back the Germans.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 5:06:42 AM
Quote:
"Lanrezac's grasp of the situation and stern decision to retreat while the time remained has earned the gratitude of France. It was a pity he forgot to tell his British Allies about it." - Winston Churchill

Trevor


Excellent post, Trevor !

Churchill had argued against the deployment of the BEF up there on the left of the Allied front, and suggested holding it back further to the south and east, ready to participate in a successful counter attack after the French had absorbed the first punishing impact of the German onslaught.

Events suggest that he might well have been discerning here.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 5:23:48 AM
Hi Phil,

That was probably strategically the right call, to have an elite force ready for the counter-attack. However, it would have been politically unacceptable to have French soldiers dying in front of Paris whilst the BEF enjoyed hot food and comfy billets whilst waiting for their time to shine.

It’s interesting that Pershing had his AEF placed in the middle of the Allied line. He wanted them front and centre, not pinned to the (largely British) left of the line. You would have thought he would have wanted his forces close to the ports for supply?

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 6:03:31 AM
Good points, Colin.

In regard to Churchill’s advocacy of initial BEF deployment, I can’t remember whether he suggested Rouen or Amiens, or whether this was south east or south west of where the actual engagement occurred.

I must get an atlas and brush up my geography !

Churchill is famous for making silly suggestions, but even his critics conceded that amongst his follies there were some calls he made that were first rate and worthy of endorsement.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 7:11:11 AM
Hi Phil,

Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

There were also suggestions that the BEF should be disembarked at Hamburg, following a naval attack. Imagine 100,000 British soldiers bottled up in a German port whilst France was overrun. The mind boggles.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 7:21:59 AM
Also, I wonder if the pre-war British movement for conscription had succeeded and the British had had a large pool of trained manpower to deploy into Belgium and France (say 500,000 augmented by the regulars and reserves initially, whilst additional volunteers were recruited), plus a very public British commitment to defending France in the event of any German, whether the Germans might have been dissuaded from invading at all? 500,000 additional troops on the western front in 1914 could have decisively swung the campaign in favour of the Allies and may well have had the whole business over by Christmas.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 8:35:54 AM
Hi guys,

Great discussion on the WWI Battle of Mons! I went to bed seeing not much going on in MHO, & wake up to this! You have to thank the French for leaving the BEF with their surprised retreat? to stem this mammoth German Offensive on their own! ( as WSC noted)! It was the 1st British battle fought on mainland Europe in 100 years! Just like WWII the Germans start out with a big advance! After the French left the Tommies on their own, they were out numbered 3 to 1, you have to hand it to the Brits they were very skillful inflicting casualties on the Germans, it has to be tough fighting "delaying actions"? Does anyone have the premise or diagram on just how they work?? Having numerical superority, they could change tactics how they the Germans attacked! Parade ground style, for example!? Despite the retreat almost to Paris, could the BEF see this as a victory? With the AEF joining they would stop the Germans cold at Marne! Yet only one Victoria Cross was given out?? Rather tight wad in this regard!? Just a few amatuer observations!?

By all means continue this great dialogue!?

Regards,
MD

BTW my Grandfather fought in WWI, wonder if he was at Marne??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 8:41:45 AM
Hi everyone,

Well these events happened, yesterday 8-23, not yet commented on, so all posts welcome!?

1305 William Wallace is executed, He of course was a Scot resistance leader, the English king cruely did it!? What was his legacy?? anyone!? Also a major movie on it with Mel Gibson, Brave Heart, was it well done??

1514 the Ottomans, defeated the Iranians at Chaldiran! How did this battle influence the area!? Anyone??

1927 Sacco & Vanzetti were executed for murder, in a trial! That many say they were inocent!? & Were they biasly treated? They were Italians? What say you??

1939 the German-Soviet Non Aggression Pact was signed, did both Hitler, & Stalin knew it would not last? Who was the biggest instigator?? I say Adolf! What say you? Why did they even propose it? If they meant to break it??

2011 M. Quadaffi's reign of terror ends in Lybia!.How did it come about?? Who was worse Quadaffi or Saddam Hussien? Anyone??

& today 8-24 in history, these occurred!

79ce, what's ce, mean? Anyone?? Mt. Vesuvius erupts wiping out Pompeii, I remember that even today they are finding whole bodies of victims! Preserved? Comments anyone?

410 the Visagoths take Rome, ending the Empire!? Why were so many uncivilized groups ( can you list them?) attacking Europe at this time? And really when you look at it Rome was uncivilized too!?? What say you?

1814 the British take Washington DC, & try to burn the capital! What say you? Invading armies should not destroy culture? & that includes all armies, even the US!?? ( thinking of Toronto!?)

1949 NATO comes into existence! How is it doing today? Like against Russian aggression!? Anyone??

2006 they say Pluto is no longer a planet!? Next they will say the Sun is no longer a star? Why isn't Pluto a Planet any more?? Comments?

2021 the Rolling Stones drummer Charlie Watts dies! Where did the Stones rate as A rock band? Many say only #2 to the Beatles!?

What say you?
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 8:53:58 AM
Quote:
79ce, what's ce, mean? Anyone??


It mean, "Common Era". Did I know that? Nope. But the website said that it corresponds to AD (Anno Domini) but without the religious association.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 9:40:00 AM
Quote:
1814 the British take Washington DC, & try to burn the capital! What say you? Invading armies should not destroy culture? & that includes all armies, even the US!?? ( thinking of Toronto!?)


You reap what you sow is my first thought. During the War of 1812 there was a good deal of burning of military installations and private property. I would say however that the British, who have burned in other conflicts, simply retaliated in kind to depredations initiated by the US forces. And by 1814 they had troops available who had fought in the Napoleonic Wars and were ready to mete out that retributive justice.

It was 1814 and the RN dominated the Atlantic seaboard and the Gulf of Mexico. The defenders were now on the attack and the RN was able to bomb at will and to land forces where they wished to go. Note that the British were under orders not to penetrate inland or to attempt to take territory. What was the goal then? I am not sure exactly but expect that they were to take the war to the enemy and the citizens to teach them a lesson. Most importantly, they sought to relieve pressure on the land forces operating against US invaders in Upper Canada.

They had determined that there were cities all along the eastern seaboard that were vulnerable and poorly defended.

Washington was one of the those places and the British marched inland and sent a militia force running. They reached the capital and burned the capital buildings and the President's house and other buildings associated with government. As far as I know, they did not touch private property.

Now this is in sharp contrast to the behaviour of US soldiers who had invaded Upper Canada. There are a number of instances whereby US forces torched homes and feed mills in addition to government buildings.

The did not burn private property during the April 27, 1813 raid on York (now Toronto). They did burn government buildings but they were poorly disciplined and did quite a bit of looting of private property. They even raided the public library and took the books which were later returned by US officers, weeks later.

However, on the last day of 1813 and bottled up in Fort George on Lake Ontario, the US decided to cross the Niagara River and go home. Before doing that they and a militia led by the Canadian traitor, Joseph Willcocks of the Canadian Volunteers, were ordered to burn the village of Newark (now Niagara-on-the-Lake) to the ground. They ordered women and children from their homes on a freezing night (Dec. 31) in Canada and they watched, feet in the deep falling snow, as their homes and goods burned to the ground. In one case, the US soldiers carried a woman in her sick bed, bed and all, and deposited her in the snow and she watched her beautiful home and valuable personal library (worth 600 pounds) go up in flames.

Another woman was left standing in the snow with her four children, one an infant. Their home was burned as well. The infant died before the British troops could get there the next day. 400 people were homeless. Only three buildings were left standing.

Angered the British crossed the Niagara on two occasions and burned everything they could see from Fort Niagara on Lake Ontario down to Buffalo, NY on Lake Erie. They announced to the Americans that they were doing this purely in retaliation.

In 1814, the US conducted a raid on Port Dover on the north shore of Lake Erie. This was in May of that year. They torched twenty houses, three flour mills, three sawmills, three distilleries, twelve barns and some other buildings. All livestock was shot, and their bodies left to rot. (source: wiki)

From bases in Michigan the US launched a number of forays into Upper Canada and continued to burn homes and mills. They wanted to burn mills and grain storage facilities to deny them to the British.

And so the British had few qualms about attacking US settlements and did so in 1814 during the Chesapeake campaign.



This war had a rather nasty element to it and civilians on both sides suffered greatly.

I will say that the US policy to burn and loot in Upper Canada cost them a lot of support of some of the people living there. And many if not most were Americans who had come north for free land. We call these people the "late Loyalists", somewhat derisively, as they did not come out of any loyalty Britain. The true Loyalists, those who left during or after the revolutionary war were often in the militia or militia commanders. Their loyalty was beyond question. The British weren't sure about the Late Loyalists but the actions of the US troops made the US ex pats angry and if not fully committed to Britain's war, many became disinclined to support their former countrymen.

Cheers,

George

Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 11:21:03 AM
Quote:
Hi guys,

Great discussion on the WWI Battle of Mons! I went to bed seeing not much going on in MHO, & wake up to this! You have to thank the French for leaving the BEF with their surprised retreat? to stem this mammoth German Offensive on their own! ( as WSC noted)! It was the 1st British battle fought on mainland Europe in 100 years! Just like WWII the Germans start out with a big advance! After the French left the Tommies on their own, they were out numbered 3 to 1, you have to hand it to the Brits they were very skillful inflicting casualties on the Germans, it has to be tough fighting "delaying actions"? Does anyone have the premise or diagram on just how they work?? Having numerical superority, they could change tactics how they the Germans attacked! Parade ground style, for example!? Despite the retreat almost to Paris, could the BEF see this as a victory? With the AEF joining they would stop the Germans cold at Marne! Yet only one Victoria Cross was given out?? Rather tight wad in this regard!? Just a few amatuer observations!?

By all means continue this great dialogue!?

Regards,
MD

BTW my Grandfather fought in WWI, wonder if he was at Marne??


Hi Dave,

There were two battles of the Marne, in 1914 and 1918. Of course, no American forces present in the first engagement, which was predominantly a French victory. On the second, the Americans were there, and played a big role in the subsequent counterattacks. A true team effort.

On the British tactics at the first battle, they had several battalions of highly trained riflemen, plus several batteries of field artillery firing in eye-sight of the attacking German forces. The Germans came up in close order initially, and were mown down. Gradually they got their artillery up too, and poured a murderous hail down upon the entrenched Tommies. It was victory for the British on the day, but they abandoned the field the next. The German advance continued relentlessly all the way towards Paris.

Cheers,

Colin


----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 12:49:33 PM
Quote:


410 the Visagoths take Rome, ending the Empire!? Why were so many uncivilized groups ( can you list them?) attacking Europe at this time? And really when you look at it Rome was uncivilized too!?? What say you?



Hi Dave,

I started a reply to this but it's going to be rather big, so I will post it in another sub-forum so as to not take up half the thread!

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/24/2023 1:00:14 PM
It’s said that conducting a retirement and engaging in a fighting retreat is one the hardest tasks an army can undergo. The Retreat from Mons certainly exemplifies that. Ten days - or more - of desperate foot slogging and rearguard fighting, on hardened cobblestone roads in sweltering heat, with many of the British reservists being unfit and suffering from feet that were being torn to ribbons. Thousands of British troops just fell by the wayside and were captured. One or two high ranking officers suffered from nervous breakdowns and there were episodes of mass surrender that do not sit well on the British military lexicon. OTOH, there were some epic stands that are still inspiring to read about. It was a triumph of sorts. All branches of the British army distinguished themselves : the gunners, the riflemen and the airmen who made invaluable observation reports. But the cavalrymen excelled : they outfought the enemy, and showed an edge in their adaptability , whether fighting on foot or even engaging in hand to hand combat. Much derision has been levied against the so called “ cavalry obsessed” British generals : in this campaign the cavalry saved the BEF. German failure was largely attributed to lacklustre use of cavalry. It’s ironic that this war, that was to be so dominated by artillery and the ruthless application of industrialised methods, was, in its early phase on the Western front, decided largely by the skilful use of horsemanship.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 6:00:57 AM
Quote:

2021 the Rolling Stones drummer Charlie Watts dies! Where did the Stones rate as A rock band? Many say only #2 to the Beatles!?



Charlie Watts was a very fine jazz drummer-turned-rock star and seemingly an all around great guy, but the Rolling Stones are just a glorified covers group who don't come near to the level of The Who, The Kinks, Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin (to name but a few), let alone The Beatles, IMHO.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 6:01:42 AM
George,

Your knowledge of the War of 1812 never fails to amaze me. I learn so much from your posts. Long may they continue.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 7:49:42 AM
Thank you, Colin.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 7:56:58 AM
Good morning all,

As for Yesterday 9-24 in history, thanks for the takes MHO'ers!

79ce, what's ce, mean? Anyone?? Mt. Vesuvius erupts wiping out Pompeii, I remember that even today they are finding whole bodies of victims! Preserved? Thanks for straightening that out, George!

410 the Visagoths take Rome, ending the Empire!? Why were so many uncivilized groups ( can you list them?) attacking Europe at this time? And really when you look at it Rome was uncivilized too!? Check out Colin's awesome reply on another thread! Thanks Colin!!

1814 the British take Washington DC, & try to burn the capital! What say you? Invading armies should not destroy culture? & that includes all armies, even the US!?? ( thinking of Toronto!?) Great reply George, thanks!

1949 NATO comes into existence! How is it doing today? Like against Russian aggression against Ukraine!? comments, Anyone??

2006 they say Pluto is no longer a planet!? Next they will say the Sun is no longer a star? Why isn't Pluto a Planet any more?? Comments?

2021 the Rolling Stones drummer Charlie Watts dies! Where did the Stones rate as A rock band? Many say only #2 to the Beatles!? Thanks for your informed reply Colin!

& today Christmas in August, 8-25, check these out!?

1530 Ivan the terrible becomes the 1st Czar of Russia! Why was he called the terrible?? What say you??

2012 Neil Armstrong the 1st man to walk on the moon dies at 82! Where were you when this fantastic event occurred? (1969). It was incredible watching even on a black & white tv, at least for me?? Comments?

1944 Paris is liberated! How many different allied countries marched their troops into Paris??
Comments anyone??

Any other new posts??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 8:04:19 AM
Quote:
It’s said that conducting a retirement and engaging in a fighting retreat is one the hardest tasks an army can undergo. The Retreat from Mons certainly exemplifies that. Ten days - or more - of desperate foot slogging and rearguard fighting, on hardened cobblestone roads in sweltering heat, with many of the British reservists being unfit and suffering from feet that were being torn to ribbons. Thousands of British troops just fell by the wayside and were captured. One or two high ranking officers suffered from nervous breakdowns and there were episodes of mass surrender that do not sit well on the British military lexicon. OTOH, there were some epic stands that are still inspiring to read about. It was a triumph of sorts. All branches of the British army distinguished themselves : the gunners, the riflemen and the airmen who made invaluable observation reports. But the cavalrymen excelled : they outfought the enemy, and showed an edge in their adaptability , whether fighting on foot or even engaging in hand to hand combat. Much derision has been levied against the so called “ cavalry obsessed” British generals : in this campaign the cavalry saved the BEF. German failure was largely attributed to lacklustre use of cavalry. It’s ironic that this war, that was to be so dominated by artillery and the ruthless application of industrialised methods, was, in its early phase on the Western front, decided largely by the skilful use of horsemanship.

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil,

Thanks for the reply on troops conducting orderly retreats & holding actions against an attacking opponent! It had to be extremely difficult fighting not from a fortified stationary position but moving backwards exposed while retreating without being overwhelmed!??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 8:16:35 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1814 the British take Washington DC, & try to burn the capital! What say you? Invading armies should not destroy culture? & that includes all armies, even the US!?? ( thinking of Toronto!?)


You reap what you sow is my first thought. During the War of 1812 there was a good deal of burning of military installations and private property.

It was 1814 and the RN dominated the Atlantic seaboard and the Gulf of Mexico. The defenders were now on the attack and the RN was able to bomb at will and to land forces where they wished to go.

They had determined that there were cities all along the eastern seaboard that were vulnerable and poorly defended.

Washington was one of the those places and the British marched inland and sent a militia force running. They reached the capital and burned the capital buildings and the President's house and other buildings.

The did not burn private property during the April 27, 1813 raid on York (now Toronto). They did burn government buildings but they were poorly disciplined and did quite a bit of looting of private property. They even raided the public library and took the books which were later returned by US officers, weeks later.

However, on the last day of 1813 and bottled up

And so the British had few qualms about attacking US settlements and did so in 1814 during the Chesapeake campaign.



This war had a rather nasty element to it and civilians on both sides suffered greatly.

Cheers,

George




Hi George,

Awesome map on the Chesapeake Campaign! I never knew it was so extensive!!! Colin is right your very astute on the War of 1812!

Thanks
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 8:47:23 AM
I wanted to add that the Chesapeake campaign did not produce the desired response from the US. They did not divert troops from the Canadian borders.

And so the small towns in the Chesapeake area were at the mercy of the British. Sec. of War John Armstrong did not provide the funds for militia to train or to improve their military assets. He did not send more trained troops. In fairness, he was probably restricted by the level of financial support from Congress. However, his failure to improve the defensive capabilities of the towns and cities in the Chesapeake led to steady criticism and he was eventually compelled to resign.

The British blockade of ports had severely restricted trade with the US and so government income from customs duties had been greatly reduced. The war was putting the US in a poor financial position. The British of course, already had enough debt to consider with their defeat of Napoleon.

Lastly, the British would only apply force in the Chesapeake area should there be any resistance. If a town capitulated without a fight, there would be little damage done. If it chose to resist then sterner measures were taken.

Still with the successful resistance shown by the Americans at the final battle in the Chesapeake, the Battle of Baltimore, the British abandoned the Chesapeake campaign and concentrated on southern ports and ports on the Gulf of Mexico, including New Orleans.

Cheers,

George
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 9:59:52 AM
Quote:
George,

Your knowledge of the War of 1812 never fails to amaze me. I learn so much from your posts. Long may they continue.

Cheers,

Colin


Me too. My concentration has always been on the events in Europe at the time.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 1:14:31 PM
Quote:
I wanted to add that the Chesapeake campaign did not produce the desired response from the US. They did not divert troops from the Canadian borders.

And so the small towns in the Chesapeake area were at the mercy of the British. Sec. of War John Armstrong did not provide the funds for militia to train or to improve their military assets. He did not send more trained troops. In fairness, he was probably restricted by the level of financial support from Congress. However, his failure to improve the defensive capabilities of the towns and cities in the Chesapeake led to steady criticism and he was eventually compelled to resign.

The British blockade of ports had severely restricted trade with the US and so government income from customs duties had been greatly reduced. The war was putting the US in a poor financial position. The British of course, already had enough debt to consider with their defeat of Napoleon.

Lastly, the British would only apply force in the Chesapeake area should there be any resistance. If a town capitulated without a fight, there would be little damage done. If it chose to resist then sterner measures were taken.

Still with the successful resistance shown by the Americans at the final battle in the Chesapeake, the Battle of Baltimore, the British abandoned the Chesapeake campaign and concentrated on southern ports and ports on the Gulf of Mexico, including New Orleans.

Cheers,

George




Hi George,

Still we have the British, & the RN, to thank for our national banner song, Sir Francis Scott Key's "Star Spangled Banner!"

As you point out in your last paragraph, referring to Baltimore & Fort McHenry!!

Catchy tune don't you think!? Star Spangled Banner lyrics, google or you tube it!! Ya gotta love it??

Why you can even hear it in Canada, before any sports contest, involving a US team!!??

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/25/2023 4:02:53 PM
Quote:


Hi George,

Still we have the British, & the RN, to thank for our national banner song, Sir Francis Scott Key's "Star Spangled Banner!"

As you point out in your last paragraph, referring to Baltimore & Fort McHenry!!

Catchy tune don't you think!? Star Spangled Banner lyrics, google or you tube it!! Ya gotta love it??

Why you can even hear it in Canada, before any sports contest, involving a US team!!??

Cheers,
MD


MD, I am most impressed that Francis Scott Key adopted a British drinking song as the basis for the Star Spangled Banner.

"To Anacreon in Heaven"

[Read More]

Sometimes I can hear similarities and sometimes I can't.

You can also hear O' Canada in any US arena or stadium when a Canadian team is visiting. Just a courtesy between friends although I do question why a national anthem has to be played at every sporting event.

George
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