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Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2023 3:02:30 AM
Quote:
Quote:
It’s said that conducting a retirement and engaging in a fighting retreat is one the hardest tasks an army can undergo. The Retreat from Mons certainly exemplifies that. Ten days - or more - of desperate foot slogging and rearguard fighting, on hardened cobblestone roads in sweltering heat, with many of the British reservists being unfit and suffering from feet that were being torn to ribbons. Thousands of British troops just fell by the wayside and were captured. One or two high ranking officers suffered from nervous breakdowns and there were episodes of mass surrender that do not sit well on the British military lexicon. OTOH, there were some epic stands that are still inspiring to read about. It was a triumph of sorts. All branches of the British army distinguished themselves : the gunners, the riflemen and the airmen who made invaluable observation reports. But the cavalrymen excelled : they outfought the enemy, and showed an edge in their adaptability , whether fighting on foot or even engaging in hand to hand combat. Much derision has been levied against the so called “ cavalry obsessed” British generals : in this campaign the cavalry saved the BEF. German failure was largely attributed to lacklustre use of cavalry. It’s ironic that this war, that was to be so dominated by artillery and the ruthless application of industrialised methods, was, in its early phase on the Western front, decided largely by the skilful use of horsemanship.

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil,

Thanks for the reply on troops conducting orderly retreats & holding actions against an attacking opponent! It had to be extremely difficult fighting not from a fortified stationary position but moving backwards exposed while retreating without being overwhelmed!??

Regards,
MD


Dave,

Another example of the perilous fighting retreat is the Seven Days Battle outside Richmond in the week spanning 25 June and 1 July 1862 ; McClellan’s Union army falling back to the James River and fighting several fierce battles as Lee’s army pursued.

Napoleon’s retreat from Moscow in 1812, and its German counterpart in the last days of 1941 : then the British debacle in Burma in 1942.

One of the joys of this section of MHO is discussing an episode on a certain day in history, and then citing other examples to compare it with.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2023 6:14:48 AM
Two very important battles for the British :

1346 , Crecy.

1914, Le Cateau.

Crecy was an English, rather than a British victory, although a contingent of Welsh archers played an important role.

Le Cateau is controversial, both in its inception and its result . A defeat for the British, or a successful delaying action ? Heated arguments about this still abound.

Crecy was an unequivocal and shattering English victory.

Folklore of the Great War likes to conflate Le Cateau with Crecy, even to the extent of stories of a heavenly host of longbow men coming to the aid of the desperate British in 1914 !

Both battles were fought by the English/British on the defensive.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2023 8:45:52 AM
Hi Phil,

I remember in Jr. College reading a book "15 Decisive Battles of the World"! & I thought Crecy was one of them? But I looked it up today & it was written by Creasy, ( Sir Edward Shepard Creasy) not the battle of Crecy! Infact Sir E S Creasy didn't site the battle of Crecy as one of the 15!?

Regards,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2023 9:38:54 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It’s said that conducting a retirement and engaging in a fighting retreat is one the hardest tasks an army can undergo. The Retreat from Mons certainly exemplifies that. Ten days - or more - of desperate foot slogging and rearguard fighting, on hardened cobblestone roads in sweltering heat, with many of the British reservists being unfit and suffering from feet that were being torn to ribbons. Thousands of British troops just fell by the wayside and were captured. One or two high ranking officers suffered from nervous breakdowns and there were episodes of mass surrender that do not sit well on the British military lexicon. OTOH, there were some epic stands that are still inspiring to read about. It was a triumph of sorts. All branches of the British army distinguished themselves : the gunners, the riflemen and the airmen who made invaluable observation reports. But the cavalrymen excelled : they outfought the enemy, and showed an edge in their adaptability , whether fighting on foot or even engaging in hand to hand combat. Much derision has been levied against the so called “ cavalry obsessed” British generals : in this campaign the cavalry saved the BEF. German failure was largely attributed to lacklustre use of cavalry. It’s ironic that this war, that was to be so dominated by artillery and the ruthless application of industrialised methods, was, in its early phase on the Western front, decided largely by the skilful use of horsemanship.

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil,

Thanks for the reply on troops conducting orderly retreats & holding actions against an attacking opponent! It had to be extremely difficult fighting not from a fortified stationary position but moving backwards exposed while retreating without being overwhelmed!??

Regards,
MD


Dave,

Another example of the perilous fighting retreat is the Seven Days Battle outside Richmond in the week spanning 25 June and 1 July 1862 ; McClellan’s Union army falling back to the James River and fighting several fierce battles as Lee’s army pursued.

Napoleon’s retreat from Moscow in 1812, and its German counterpart in the last days of 1941 : then the British debacle in Burma in 1942.

One of the joys of this section of MHO is discussing an episode on a certain day in history, and then citing other examples to compare it with.

Regards, Phil


The reason that Lee made Longstreet the senior Lt. General of the army, and passed over Jackson for that honor is despite Jackson`s Valley Campaign of brilliance, McClellan was vulnerable to attack from Lee in his slog to the James and Lee`s plans came to nought because "Stonewall" did nothing for several days. I am quite sure that Jackson was near exhaustion from exertions in that valley masterpiece, and he felt his men had done enough, but Lee was dismayed that his plans to follow up on McClellan were derailed by Jackson`s inertia.

The other factor that allowed McClellan to escape was just the uncertainty of what his withdrawal was about. Until Lee was certain that McClellan was retreating to his supporting gunboats on the James, he had to cover is bases. This, when combined with Jackson`s failure to conform to his orders is what allowed Mac to find his Gibraltar on Malvern Hill.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/26/2023 3:26:53 PM
Morris,

Not despite Jackson’s Valley Campaign, but because of it, this dreadful torpor displayed by Old Hickory ?

The retreat from Mons was characterised by the Second Corps of the BEF sustaining disproportionate damage . I believe that Fitz John Porter’s Corps likewise suffered in the Seven Days.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 7:29:35 AM
Again, I was up north the last 2 days, so I was unable to post. Here's 8-28 today in world history! These are all new events! Comments??

476 the western Roman Empire falls to barbarians led by king Oderacer! What barbarian hoard did he lead? Anyone?

1609 English explorer Henry Hudson explores Delaware Bay! was Hudson the greatest English Explorer?? Who then?

1619 Ferdinand II elected Holy Roman Emperor! Just what encompassed this empire? Anyone??

1833 England abolishes the. Slave trade! How & why did they recognize this was the thing to do?? What say you??

1861 the CW Battle for Cape Hatteras! How was the Union able to prevail, when early in the CW, when Lee & the South usually prevailed??. Comments??

1867 the US formally takes control of Midway Atoll . How would this prove significant later?? Anyone?

1916 Germany declares war on Romania, & Italy declares war on Germany? Any connection??

1939 Gen. Montgomery takes over the Iron Infantry! Who are they? How's this significant??

1943 Denmark declares a universal strike against Germany! You got to hand it to the little country of Denmark defying the Nazis! How did that go over?? What say you??

1963 ML King Jr's march on Washington! Why was Civil Rights so hard to progress in the US? Is it still held up even today? What say you?? Why?

Any topics missed?
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 11:10:34 AM
Quote:
1609 English explorer Henry Hudson explores Delaware Bay! was Hudson the greatest English Explorer?? Who then?


Very difficult question to answer. There were so many English explorers and explorers from many other countries that comparison is difficult and probably not necessary.

Are we talking about explorations by sea or explorations on land? And in what time period and with what level of sophistication in navigation implements?

My first thought is of the British land explorers in North America like Alexander Mackenzie and David Thompson because they were travelling uncharted waters and lands that only First Nations had travelled before.

We know of Hudson and John Cabot (Italian but sailing for England), Martin Frobisher, John Franklin, James Cook.

Francis Drake sailed around the world. Matthew Flinders circumnavigated and mapped Australia.

It's a long list and we would need some criteria to allow for comparison. Or we just accept that many different people from many nations did some bold and sometimes foolhardy things while making discoveries across the world.

Perhaps someone else can select an English explorer who impressed them the most.

Oh, David Livingstone is another one.

Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 11:48:27 AM
Quote:
1833 England abolishes the. Slave trade! How & why did they recognize this was the thing to do?? What say you??


There were abolitionist movements in Britain long before that date. The movement may probably be traced to the 1780's and it spread across the Empire. There were also abolitionists in the North American colonies and in the US after it became a nation.

By 1804 hadn't the northern states of the US already abolished slavery? The revolution has seen a rise in abolitionist sentiment especially in the new northern states.

Religious groups like the Quakers in Britain began to point out, in the 1770's, that trafficking and selling human beings was immoral and anti-Christian. Quakers in North American would be leaders of the abolitionist movement and later very active in the operation of the Underground Railroad.

There were some legislative victories led by abolitionists before the outright ban. Britain would not allow British subjects who owned slaves in the West Indies to have slaves in Britain after 1772 so before the US became a nation.

In 1793 the British colony of Upper Canada (now Ontario) under the leadership of Governor Simcoe tried to ban slavery outright. Simcoe felt that the institution of slavery was a violation of the English constitution, unwritten as it was.

But there was considerable protest from the few slave owners existing in the province including Loyalists who had arrived with their slaves after the revolutionary war. Simcoe was forced to amend the legislation to ban any further importation of slaves. Existing slaves would live out their lives in bondage unless freed but their children would become free men and women at the age of 25.

Why did it take so long to ban slavery outright? I think that the slave lobby was very powerful. Many wealthy men in Britain had made their fortune in the trafficking of Africans to the West Indies. It must have been difficult to pass legislation when some of the Parliamentarians were involved in the trade.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 1:36:38 PM
I gave the Naval History and Heritage Command my copy of this book. https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Slave-Trade/Hugh-Thomas/9780684835655
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 3:06:04 PM
Quote:
I gave the Naval History and Heritage Command my copy of this book. [Read More]

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 7:47:51 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1609 English explorer Henry Hudson explores Delaware Bay! was Hudson the greatest English Explorer?? Who then?


Very difficult question to answer. There were so many English explorers and explorers from many other countries that comparison is difficult and probably not necessary.

Are we talking about explorations by sea or explorations on land? And in what time period and with what level of sophistication in navigation implements?

My first thought is of the British land explorers in North America like Alexander Mackenzie and David Thompson because they were travelling uncharted waters and lands that only First Nations had travelled before.

We know of Hudson and John Cabot (Italian but sailing for England), Martin Frobisher, John Franklin, James Cook.

Francis Drake sailed around the world. Matthew Flinders circumnavigated and mapped Australia.

It's a long list and we would need some criteria to allow for comparison. Or we just accept that many different people from many nations did some bold and sometimes foolhardy things while making discoveries across the world.

Perhaps someone else can select an English explorer who impressed them the most.

Oh, David Livingstone is another one.

Cheers,

George




Hi George,

I guess it depends what criteria you use, also I guess I meant English naval explorers. You probably would get different answers depending who you ask anyway?? Trying to objective here? I would say Cook, Hudson, Drake, & Cabot, if your looking at sea explorers only!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 8:06:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1833 England abolishes the. Slave trade! How & why did they recognize this was the thing to do?? What say you??



By 1804 hadn't the northern states of the US already abolished slavery?

Why did it take so long to ban slavery outright? I think that the slave lobby was very powerful. Many wealthy men in Britain had made their fortune in the trafficking of Africans to the West Indies. It must have been difficult to pass legislation when some of the Parliamentarians were involved in the trade.

Cheers,

George





Hi George,

I heard that 4% of the richest Southern Plantation owners, owned over 90% of the slaves! To think these guys were the fire-eaters who incited the Civil War!?

Scary,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 8:33:18 PM


Quote:

Hi George,

I heard that 4% of the richest Southern Plantation owners, owned over 90% of the slaves! To think these guys were the fire-eaters who incited the Civil War!?

Scary,
MD


I have read that before as well but I believe that the claim has been debunked. A professor at Duke University named William "Sandy" Darity provides other statistics. Darity is a professor of African American Studies and a leading researcher on the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The professor cites the following statistics:

Quote:
In 1860, 1% of white southern families owned 200 or more human beings.

But in states of the Confederacy, at least
20% owned at least one and in Ms and SC ran as high as fifty percent.”


By taking the total population including slaves in the total and then calculating a percentage who are slave owners is inaccurate. The total includes women and children as well.

The short article below explains why and concludes that according to the 1860 census, 30.8% of the free families in the Confederacy owned slaves. That's nearly one out of three families.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George





DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 8:51:39 PM
Quote:


Quote:

Hi George,

I heard that 4% of the richest Southern Plantation owners, owned over 90% of the slaves! To think these guys were the fire-eaters who incited the Civil War!?

Scary,
MD


I have read that before as well but I believe that the claim has been debunked. A professor at Duke University named William "Sandy" Darity provides other statistics. Darity is a professor of African American Studies and a leading researcher on the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The professor cites the following statistics:

Quote:
In 1860, 1% of white southern families owned 200 or more human beings.

But in states of the Confederacy, at least
20% owned at least one and in Ms and SC ran as high as fifty percent.”


By taking the total population including slaves in the total and then calculating a percentage who are slave owners is inaccurate. The total includes women and children as well.

The short article below explains why and concludes that according to the 1860 census, 30.8% of the free families in the Confederacy owned slaves. That's nearly one out of three families.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George


From the article you link George; "That means that every third white person in those states had a direct commitment to slavery." The author is equating "benefitted" to "commitment". So a 6 year old girl, whose father owns slaves not only benefits from slavery, which she does by choice or not, but she is now committed to slavery. We move forward 12 years, the 6 year old is now 18 and married, let's say to another owner of slaves. Based on the authors thought line, she is now committed to say his 10 plus her father's 25. Thus benefitting and committing to slavery of 35 people. What happens when her father dies, and say she sells them off, or free's them? Does that not pinprick the red balloon of commitment?

There may be 22,000 in attendance at the game tonight but that does not in any fashion mean they are all committed to eating a hot dog, let alone benefitting from it. If ever there was a reach to conflate statistics, this is surely on of them.

Dan

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/28/2023 10:35:11 PM
Quote:
Perhaps someone else can select an English explorer who impressed them the most.

Any person who ventures into unknown territory has at least some dibs on being called great, IMHO. But I tend to be drawn to those with what I would call a “double compulsion” – to combine one skill (e.g., commanding a ship) with another (e.g., an obsession wth navigation mapping, or specimen collecting). Those factors draw me to both Cook and Vancouver, whose skill at mapping, combined with their use of relatively new chronographs, defined the world more accurately and made the world safer for sailors while strengthening the size of the British Empire.

Those are, of course, easy choices. But how about one Vice-Admiral Robert Fitzroy FRS, who captained the Beagle during Charles Darwin’s journey? He is known, if at all, for his opposition to Darwin’s published ideas. But the “FRS” was earned; he was a meteorologist of some note, largely as applicable to lives at sea. Or consider Alexander von Humboldt, whose work in South America, including his study of ocean currents, still informs much of our understanding of Pacific Coast oceanography.

Such men often go unsung. But they devoted much of their lives to the study of our natural world (its extent, diversity, and complexity) and of means to bend that knowledge to human advantage. Easy to find a personal favourite, I guess, but hard to rate them against each other.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2023 2:29:22 AM
Quote:
Quote:


Quote:

Hi George,

I heard that 4% of the richest Southern Plantation owners, owned over 90% of the slaves! To think these guys were the fire-eaters who incited the Civil War!?

Scary,
MD


I have read that before as well but I believe that the claim has been debunked. A professor at Duke University named William "Sandy" Darity provides other statistics. Darity is a professor of African American Studies and a leading researcher on the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The professor cites the following statistics:

Quote:
In 1860, 1% of white southern families owned 200 or more human beings.

But in states of the Confederacy, at least
20% owned at least one and in Ms and SC ran as high as fifty percent.”


By taking the total population including slaves in the total and then calculating a percentage who are slave owners is inaccurate. The total includes women and children as well.

The short article below explains why and concludes that according to the 1860 census, 30.8% of the free families in the Confederacy owned slaves. That's nearly one out of three families.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George


From the article you link George; "That means that every third white person in those states had a direct commitment to slavery." The author is equating "benefitted" to "commitment". So a 6 year old girl, whose father owns slaves not only benefits from slavery, which she does by choice or not, but she is now committed to slavery. We move forward 12 years, the 6 year old is now 18 and married, let's say to another owner of slaves. Based on the authors thought line, she is now committed to say his 10 plus her father's 25. Thus benefitting and committing to slavery of 35 people. What happens when her father dies, and say she sells them off, or free's them? Does that not pinprick the red balloon of commitment?

There may be 22,000 in attendance at the game tonight but that does not in any fashion mean they are all committed to eating a hot dog, let alone benefitting from it. If ever there was a reach to conflate statistics, this is surely on of them.

Dan



A revealing analysis of the extent of slave ownership was made by the historian David Olusoga who discussed the impact of emancipation in the British Empire, a generation earlier than the American Civil War. This was accomplished through a compensation scheme, whereby all people who owned slaves received money in accordance with the number of slaves they’d owned. The great land owners received the vast preponderance of the money, reflecting the wealth amassed by virtue of the sugar trade that had made them rich. The surprising thing is, though, the number of “humble” British people who found out that they’d owned slaves, even though this might have equated to a part share in just one . Artisanal labourers and shop keepers suddenly found themselves in receipt of funds they never expected, or even know about. Perhaps many of them were appalled at the revelation, even as they received the money.
The British never had to confront the problem that afflicted the Americans, because their slaves were thousands of miles away in the Caribbean, and emancipation was achieved through compromise and compensation.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2023 7:50:55 AM
8-28 in World History.

476 the western Roman Empire falls to barbarians led by king Oderacer! What barbarian hoard did he lead? Anyone?

1609 English explorer Henry Hudson explores Delaware Bay! was Hudson the greatest English Explorer?? Great discussion ongoing, continue it??

1619 Ferdinand II elected Holy Roman Emperor! Just what encompassed this empire? Anyone??

1833 England abolishes the. Slave trade! How & why did they recognize this was the thing to do?? Another good discussion on this topic as well?

1861 the CW Battle for Cape Hatteras! How was the Union able to prevail, when early in the CW, when Lee & the South usually prevailed??. Comments??

1867 the US formally takes control of Midway Atoll . How would this prove significant later?? Anyone?

1916 Germany declares war on Romania, & Italy declares war on Germany? Any connection??

1939 Gen. Montgomery takes over the Iron Infantry! (Must be tanks??) Who are they? How's this significant??

1943 Denmark declares a universal strike against Germany! You got to hand it to the little country of Denmark defying the Nazis! How did that go over?? What say you??

1963 ML King Jr's march on Washington! Why was Civil Rights so hard to progress in the US? Is it still held up even today? What say you?? Why?

Some topics missed?
Regards,
MD

Also today on 8-29 these events occurred, comments??

1533 200 Conquistadors conquered 10 million Incans!?? Yeah sure!?

1786 Shay's Rebellion, new US Government finds it's not easy collecting taxes!? What happened? Anyone??

1792 HMS Royal George capsized 800 drown! How could this possibly happen??

1842 Opium War ends when China & Britain sign an agreement!? You meant the Brits were drug pushers?? Comments?

1862 the Rebs win the 2nd Battle of Bull Run, you might say they won a doubleheader! Just ask Abner Doubleday??

1907 the Quebec Bridge over the St. Lawrence River collapses killing 75 people. How did this happen??

1945 Gen MacArthur named commander of occupied Japn! Did he do a creditable job?

What say you??
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2023 9:17:29 AM
Quote:
1786 Shay's Rebellion, new US Government finds it's not easy collecting taxes!? What happened? Anyone??


One would think that those Massachusetts people didn't feel compelled to pay any taxes whether levied by the British or the new state.
This rebellion in 1786-87 followed the end of the revolutionary war but prior to the establishment of the US constitution. Is that correct?

Once the rebellion was quelled, how did the new congress assure that taxation was address in the constitution? I understand that the Articles of Confederation did not address the issue.

The man that led this rebellion was Daniel Shays, a former captain in the Continental Army. He and many of the other veterans were distraught at the lack of support for them at the end of the war. Shay had the support of poor farmers as well. They did not want to be taxed to death and many of them had acquired debt while away in service.

The government needed money. It had a debt to service and so did many other countries across the world. Governments levy taxes when in that situation but Shays managed to raise a sizeable little army and led the insurrection. It was put down by the state of Massachusetts on orders of the governor. I believe that everyone involved received a pardon.

What power to suppress this insurrection did the new Confederation Congress have in 1787?


Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2023 6:51:53 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1786 Shay's Rebellion, new US Government finds it's not easy collecting taxes!? What happened? Anyone??


One would think that those Massachusetts people didn't feel compelled to pay any taxes whether levied by the British or the new state.
This rebellion in 1786-87 followed the end of the revolutionary war but prior to the establishment of the US constitution. Is that correct?

Once the rebellion was quelled, how did the new congress assure that taxation was address in the constitution? I understand that the Articles of Confederation did not address the issue.

The man that led this rebellion was Daniel Shays, a former captain in the Continental Army. He and many of the other veterans were distraught at the lack of support for them at the end of the war. Shay had the support of poor farmers as well. They did not want to be taxed to death and many of them had acquired debt while away in service.

The government needed money. It had a debt to service and so did many other countries across the world. Governments levy taxes when in that situation but Shays managed to raise a sizeable little army and led the insurrection. It was put down by the state of Massachusetts on orders of the governor. I believe that everyone involved received a pardon.

What power to suppress this insurrection did the new Confederation Congress have in 1787?


Cheers,

George




Hi George,

I guess part of the problem was that the Officers in the Continental Army were not yet paid, no wonder Daniel & the other officers, & army men were upset, & certainly didn't want to be taxed on top of that!? I guess George Washington had a few words for the dissidents to help quell the situation!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/29/2023 6:56:15 PM
Hey MHO,

Again today on 8-29 these events occurred, any last comments on any of them?? Anyone?

1533 200 Conquistadors conquered 10 million Incans!?? Yeah sure!?

1792 HMS Man o war, Royal George capsized at Spithead 800 drown! How could this possibly happen?? A accident? Seems suspicious? What say you??

1842 Opium War ends when China & Britain sign an agreement? Treaty of Nanking!? You mean the Brits were drug pushers?? Comments?

1862 the Rebs win the 2nd Battle of Bull Run, you might say they won a doubleheader! After winning the 1st battle of Bull Run, Just ask Abner Doubleday??

1907 the Quebec Bridge over the St. Lawrence River collapses killing 75 people. How did this happen? Any articles or websites on it??

1945 Gen MacArthur named commander of occupied Japan! Did he do a creditable job, on this & later commander in Korea?? Anyone??

What say you??
MD

We must of missed some events for this date? Anyone??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/30/2023 8:43:58 AM
Quote:
1842 Opium War ends when China & Britain sign an agreement? Treaty of Nanking!? You mean the Brits were drug pushers?? Comments?


I suppose that you could say that but then you would have to say the same about US traders involved in the opium trade.

European nations wanted access to China's market and China had many valuable things to sell but they did not want or need much and so they demanded payment in silver for their goods. Britain was buying a lot of tea from China. Britain discovered from the Portuguese, I believe, that there was a market for opium in China. Opium was used for medicinal purposes but Britain began to bring a lot of it in and sold it to smugglers for silver. It was a lucrative trade.

The Chinese Emperor was upset that a nation of opium addicts was developing and he asked Britain to curtail the import of opium. He went so far as to seize opium from British traders and Britain went to war over that. Of course, Britain was victorious though fighting did continue even after the 1842 Treaty of Nanking was signed.

Britain was ceded the island of Hong Kong and given the right to trade in many different ports and places in China. Foreigners had been restricted to the Port of Canton prior to that. China also had to pay Britain for the 1400 tons of opium that it had seized from them.

In a sense Britain carried the can for all of the other nations including the US that wanted a more open access to Chinese markets. The US signed its own treaty in 1844 called the The Treaty of Wangxia. This treaty conferred favoured nation status on the US and gave access to many different ports by US traders. The US had negotiated the right to buy property at five different ports and to erect Christian churches in China.

Other nations negotiated independent treaties with China that the Chinese would call the "unequal treaties" because it was China that was giving up so much in return for so little.

Later, the nations who had negotiated with China would express dissatisfaction with the treaties and the 2nd Opium War broke out with Britain attacking two port cities with the support of France. The pretext that Britain used was that Chinese officials had boarded a British registered vessel in a harbour to take some Chinese citizens working on the ship. They were later released though it seems that the Chinese officials had lowered the British flag which was an insult.

China was still trying to keep opium from entering the country but Britain and others were still bringing it in.

The US did despatch gunboats and marines to protect Americans and American interests. Some Americans did accompany British troops as they breached the wall of a Chinese fort near Canton, I believe. There were American boots on the ground but the US was concerned about violating neutrality.

The US and Russia received more concessions from China when the 2nd Opium War ended in 1858 though they did not participate in the conflict.

Chinese sovereignty had been compromised as other nations established zones or spheres of influence within the country. They treated these spheres as personal fiefdoms.

The US had no specific zone or sphere of influence and did not approve of the practice. Instead the US wanted access to the whole of China and not to be restricted by activity within a zone. The US preferred an open door policy and worked toward that with China.




Cheers,

George
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
8/30/2023 12:42:46 PM
In my humble opinion, the British Empire was the biggest Drug Cartel in history.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/30/2023 6:15:20 PM
8-29

1792 HMS Man o war, Royal George capsized at Spithead 800 drown! How could this possibly happen?? A accident? Seems suspicious? What say you??

1907 the Quebec Bridge over the St. Lawrence River collapses killing 75 people. How did this happen? Any articles or websites on it??


How did faulty building & maintenence, & even pure stupidity help cause these 2 disasters!?

Anyone, comments!
MD

BTW Trevor, I get all my drugs from this British Cartel!! ☺
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/30/2023 8:45:33 PM
Quote:
1907 the Quebec Bridge over the St. Lawrence River collapses killing 75 people. How did this happen? Any articles or websites on it??


It was supposed to be the longest cantilevered bridge in the world upon completion. A top engineering company and its chief engineer, Thomas Cooper came up with the design.
Cooper hired a bridge building company called the Phoenix Bridge Company.

The Canadian government had given Cooper its design specifications but Cooper modified them. He reduced the wind load that the bridge could handle and he also increased the stresses that could be put on the structural members of the bridge.

Cooper has been described as a proud man but arrogant. Robert Douglas was a Canadian engineer working for the government and he went to Cooper to tell him that he was concerned about the added stresses on the bridge. Cooper hit the roof and said that he would not work as a subordinate to anyone.

During construction an error was made in the build of the cantilever and Cooper decided that it wouldn't make that much difference as the increase in stress load was only 7% higher.

Multiple reports by people on the job came to Cooper that parts of the structure were beginning to crack and bend. Reports were coming in from workers who noticed that rivets that they had set were popping out within an hour.

Cooper was back in New York. He spent little time on the job site claiming ill health. He ordered his top man to come to NY to report and he ordered Phoenix to stop building but that message was ignored.

Too late. The bridge collapsed and 75 men plunged to their death. Some were crushed by the steel. Others fell into the St. Lawrence River and drowned. 33 were steel workers from the Mohawk nation at Kahnawake near Montréal.


Cheers,

George



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
8/31/2023 8:58:04 AM


1792 HMS Man o war, Royal George capsized at Spithead 800 drown! How could this possibly happen?? A accident? Seems suspicious? What say you??

From what I've read on this tragedy, this 100 gun British man a war, was having routine maintenance on the hull at Spithead off Portsmouth. Where it was purposely rolled to one side, to scrape & do surface work, with a mostly full crew onboard. They must of gone to far & the ship flipped, & sank, killing 800 sailors on board!

Not sure of all the details? Any facts on what really happened? & is this the common procedure for HMS ships at this timeframe??

Help us out, anyone??
MD

BTW thanks George for the post on the Quebec Bridge disaister!! Was Mr. Cooper ever punished in anyway for his terrible oversights, & shortcuts??

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
8/31/2023 12:46:44 PM
Quote:
BTW thanks George for the post on the Quebec Bridge disaister!! Was Mr. Cooper ever punished in anyway for his terrible oversights, & shortcuts??


In Canada when something of this nature happens, we often see a Royal Commission appointed to assess what went wrong. And that is what happened in this case. Cooper wasn't the only person who made errors. The investigation included Mr. Cooper as the consulting engineer, Mr. McClure who worked for Cooper and was his assistant on site, John Deans who was the President of the Phoenix Bridge Building Co., a Mr. Schreiber who was the consulting engineer with another company involved called the Railway Co., and finally a Mr. Hoare who was the on site consulting design engineer.

The RC found:

1. “failure is attributed… [to the] errors in judgment
on the part of these two engineers”, Cooper and
Szlapka.

Quote:
(c) The design of the chords that failed was made by Mr. P.L. Szlapka, the designing engineer of the Phoenix Bridge Company

(d) This design was examined and officially approved by Mr. Theodore Cooper, consulting engineer of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company.

(e) The failure cannot be attributed directly to any cause other than errors in judgment on the part of these two engineers.



2. John Deans of the Phoenix Bridge Co., was criticized for poor judgment

3. The Phoenix Bridge Co. was criticize for the appointment of Mr. Hoare as the on site consulting engineer and the commission assessed that Hoare was unqualified for the job.

The Royal Commission found that there was a great deal of negligence evident. So far as I know, no criminal charges were ever brought.

Mr. Cooper was over 60 and in ill health and he retired and lived a rather lonely existence to the end of his life.

For the others, it seemed to be business as usual:

Quote:
Edward Hoare went to work for the National Transcontinental Railway Commission.

John Deans continued to serve as chief engineer of the Phoenix Bridge Company. He eventually became vice president of the company.

Szlapka continued his duties as chief designer for the Phoenix Company.
.

The Canadian government decided to take over the building of a second bridge and provided financial support for the project. The second bridge was much heavier than the one that collapsed with thicker steel members. Even with that there was another accident in 1916 in which the centre span collapsed and 11 workers died.

About the only good thing that happened was that a group of engineers banded together in 1922 to encourage more professional behaviour of people in this position. This Professional Code of Ethics was adopted in Canada and the US by the engineering associations. As a constant remind to themselves of the importance of providing professional but also ethical conduct in any engineering project, engineers wear an iron or stainless steel on the pinky finger of their dominant hand.

That's something I suppose.

Cheers,

George









Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/1/2023 7:45:48 AM
Welcome to September, 9-1 in World History;

891 Vikings defeated near Louvaine, France, I thought the Norsemen seldom lost? Comments?

1482 Tarters plunder Kiev, Ukraine! Where did this group of barbarians originate from? Anyone??

1535 French explorer Jacques Cartier reaches Montreal, no wonder this area is still French today!? What say you?

1792 the Liberty Bell arrives in Philadelphia, from a foundry in London! Do you find this ironic??

1807 Aaron Burr acquitted of treason. Why was he accused in the 1st place? What say you?

1864 Atlanta is evacuated as the Union advances! The Confederates are gone with the wind?? Comments?

1898 Lord Kitchener attacks the Sudan! Just what are the British doing there?? Anyone?

1905 Alberta, & Saskatchewan join the Canadian Confederation! Just what was the criteria for them to be allowed in?? Help us out here??

1914 the last Passenger Pigeon dies in a Ohio Zoo, these birds once darkened the skies! How could they all die off?? Anyone?

1918 the Allies win a major battle in the SinaeI, & Palestine! How was WWI also spreading to the Middle east? Comments??

1939 Switzerland declares neutrality, were they actually neutral in WWII? What say you??

1939 WWII starts with German invasion of Poland, if the Allies had been more pro active could they have stopped the Nazis here?? Anyone?

Have a great Labor Day Weekend, I'll be up north, weak internet, hopefully some one can pick up the slack??

Lots to discuss here, pitch in!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/1/2023 11:40:50 AM
Quote:
1535 French explorer Jacques Cartier reaches Montreal, no wonder this area is still French today!? What say you?


If not for the defeat at the hands of the British in 1759 the French influence on this continent would have been more extensive. The French claimed a considerably large section of North America.

This is New France in 1745:



The British did hope to assimilate the French into an English culture but that was not successful. And when the troubles emerged in the Thirteen Colonies the British sought to ensure the loyalty of French-Canadians to the British crown.

And so they passed the Quebec Act of 1774 which expanded the extent of the colony of Quebec into the Ohio Valley. Prior to that the colony's area had been curtailed after the 1759 defeat.



The British had other goals with the Québec Act and that was to create an Indian homeland and to prevent the colonists of the 13 colonies from settling there.

The Quebec Act also established religious freedom for French-Canadians. The act also allowed the use of the French Civil Code in civil matters and the British Criminal Code for criminal matters. The seigneurial system of land tenure was re-established. A governor and a council would administer to this colony and French-Canadians were now allowed to serve. So the French-Canadians were happy.

Some historians point to the Québec Act as a partial template for the 1st amendment of the US constitution.

The 13 colonists were not so happy. Many were anti-catholic and many had speculative interests in the land of the Ohio Valley. The Québec Act effectively shut them out of that.

And that is why we still have a province in Canada whose first language is French. The culture is quite different than that of the US and Canada. They have their own vibrant film and music industries and their own stars in both. There is a nationalistic fervour that simmer below the surface and periodically bubbles up to threaten the existence of the Canadian experiment.

Ironically, MD mentioned Montréal when alluding to the French fact in North America. Of all the places in Québec, Montréal is the most cosmopolitan. Many residents are fully bilingual. We remember of course that prior to Confederation, Montréal was the economic centre of BNA and many of the business people were British. The English speakers were the bosses while the French speakers were the workers. So if you only travel to Montréal and you only speak English, you will have little trouble in getting by.

Québec is very protective of its French language and has passed rather draconian laws to limit the extent of English used in the province. Business owners in the more cosmopolitan parts of the province instruct their clerks to greet customers with, "Bonjour-Hi" and then wait for the customer to speak in the language of their choice. The Québec government wants to put a stop to that.

It can all get a bit silly and the average Québec citizen knows that. They were embarrassed when the owner of an Italian restaurant was told by the government agents (called the Language Police derisively in Anglo Canada but the Office québécois de la langue française (OQLF) in Québec) that they didn't like the use of the word "Pasta" on the menu or the window of the restaurant. The government backed off as the Quebeckers themselves told them that, "we know what pasta is".

Another owner of a Fish and Chip shop was told that he had to call the meal that he was selling, "poisson frit et frites." The government backed off on that one too and said that exceptions to the French must predominate rules will be made for exotic dishes in ethnic restaurants. Who knew that fish and chips was an exotic meal? I shall appreciate it more the next time that I have some.
Cheers,

George



Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
9/1/2023 1:58:59 PM
Quote:


Who knew that fish and chips was an exotic meal? I shall appreciate it more that next time that I have some.


Hi George,

I must say, I too chuckle at the thought of fish and chips being an exotic meal. Done right, it is delicious. Done poorly, it can ruin your day!

If you're ever in Scotland, the fish and chips capital is in Anstruther, Fife. You won't be disappointed!

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/1/2023 4:21:08 PM
I hope to get to Scotland some day, Colin. It is my ancestral homeland after all. What type of fish do they cook in Anstruther?

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/1/2023 5:36:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:


Who knew that fish and chips was an exotic meal? I shall appreciate it more that next time that I have some.


Hi George,

I must say, I too chuckle at the thought of fish and chips being an exotic meal. Done right, it is delicious. Done poorly, it can ruin your day!

If you're ever in Scotland, the fish and chips capital is in Anstruther, Fife. You won't be disappointed!

Cheers,

Colin


Colin,

There is a story that fish and chips were introduced to Britain by Portuguese Sephardic Jews who adapted the meal by using Japanese Tempura cooking methods. The Portuguese had gained access to Japan before other Europeans, and the Jews who accompanied the explorers - or followed later - were skilled at using the inspiration of this Japanese method and applied it to their beloved cod, with the chips being an essential accompaniment. It went down very well in London and was heartily enjoyed elsewhere in the realm. My ancestors have a lot to answer for. Pass the salt and vinegar!

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
9/1/2023 5:46:37 PM
Quote:
Quote:


Who knew that fish and chips was an exotic meal? I shall appreciate it more that next time that I have some.


Hi George,

I must say, I too chuckle at the thought of fish and chips being an exotic meal. Done right, it is delicious. Done poorly, it can ruin your day!

If you're ever in Scotland, the fish and chips capital is in Anstruther, Fife. You won't be disappointed!

Cheers,

Colin


When the kids were small and I took them to Liverpool to visit gran and granddad, they always demanded fish and chips on the first night.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/1/2023 8:17:06 PM
September, 9-1 in World History; new topics not commented on yet!?

891 Vikings defeated near Louvaine, France, I thought the Norsemen seldom lost? Comments?

1482 Tarters plunder Kiev, Ukraine! Where did this group of barbarians originate from? Anyone??

1535 French explorer Jacques Cartier reaches Montreal, no wonder this area is still French today!? Thanks on the reply George.

1792 the Liberty Bell arrives in Philadelphia, from a foundry in London! Do you find this ironic??

1807 Aaron Burr acquitted of treason. Why was he accused in the 1st place? What say you?

1864 Atlanta is evacuated as the Union advances! The Confederates are gone with the wind?? Comments?

1898 Lord Kitchener attacks the Sudan! Just what are the British doing there?? Anyone?

1905 Alberta, & Saskatchewan join the Canadian Confederation! Just what was the criteria for them to be allowed in?? Help us out here??

1914 the last Passenger Pigeon dies in a Ohio Zoo, these birds once darkened the skies! How could they all die off?? Anyone?

1918 the Allies win a major battle in the SinaeI, & Palestine! How was WWI also spreading to the Middle east? Comments??

1939 Switzerland declares neutrality, were they actually neutral in WWII? What say you??

1939 WWII starts with German invasion of Poland, if the Allies had been more pro active could they have stopped the Nazis here?? Anyone?

Have a great Labor Day Weekend,

Lots to discuss here, comments, anyone?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/1/2023 9:43:07 PM
Quote:
1905 Alberta, & Saskatchewan join the Canadian Confederation! Just what was the criteria for them to be allowed in?? Help us out here??


Survivability was an important factor. The US had expanded rapidly to the west in the 19th century and had created four states along the international border that abutted Canada's North-West Territory.



Canada had come to exist as a Dominion in 1867 and had its own western expansion plans. The need to establish sovereignty in the west was motivated by fears that the US would annex parts of the North West Territory. The US had shown great interest in the lands to the north of Pembina, Minnesota (now in North Dakota). The US also desperately wanted British Columbia and lobbied to have the population approve of annexation. So the new Canadian government was motivated to get some people out there. Use it or lose it.

Canada had purchased the massive Rupert's Land territory from the Hudson's Bay Company. By 1885, treaties with the First Nations of the west had pacified the area. This was after two rebellions by Métis people already living in the west.

Canada began to send settlers to the west. In 1885 the whole of the North West Territory seen in the map above had a population of 32,000 with half being indigenous and half European settlers. By 1911, the population had risen to 492,000 with a massive shift population demographics. Only 2.4% of that population was now indigenous. (source: Canadian Encylopaedia)

The North West Territory was administered from Ottawa by the federal government but was granted responsible government in 1897 though still under the watchful eye of the federal government. The settlers began to clamour for provincial status in 1900 but some wanted the whole North West Territory to be considered one giant province. The federal government said that that area was just too large for a single government to manage. And so it was decided to create two provinces from a part of the Northwest Territory.

And so Alberta and Saskatchewan were born in 1905 on Sept. 1 with the passage of federal legislation.

The remainder of the land not used to create the two new provinces remained as the federally administered North West Territory.

Canada to 1912. After 1912, Manitoba, Ontario and Québec would see their territories expanded.



Cheers,

George





Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
9/2/2023 5:13:59 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


Who knew that fish and chips was an exotic meal? I shall appreciate it more that next time that I have some.


Hi George,

I must say, I too chuckle at the thought of fish and chips being an exotic meal. Done right, it is delicious. Done poorly, it can ruin your day!

If you're ever in Scotland, the fish and chips capital is in Anstruther, Fife. You won't be disappointed!

Cheers,

Colin


When the kids were small and I took them to Liverpool to visit gran and granddad, they always demanded fish and chips on the first night.

Trevor


The lovely Italian family in Verona, who’ve hosted me and my family over the years, have made a valiant effort to appreciate British cooking when they come and stay with us, and they’re too gracious to express any disdain they might feel. But I can honestly report that their kids always become agitated and enthusiastic when they ask for those beloved fish and chips !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
9/2/2023 5:29:15 AM
Quote:
I hope to get to Scotland some day, Colin. It is my ancestral homeland after all. What type of fish do they cook in Anstruther?

Cheers,

George


Hi George,

I hope you make it some day. As Phil and Trevor allude to, fish and chips is a national institution. I accept Phil’s offer of the origins - that makes much more sense than any other origin story I’ve heard!

As for the fish itself, you’re likely to get haddock or pollock in Scotland, but some places also offer cod. In England, cod is the most usual offering, but I did manage to get haddock, which I prefer, when in Cornwall this summer. I find haddock a tad sweeter and more delicate than cod, but I enjoy both. Pollock is a bland fish, but is much cheaper than haddock or cod do your run of the mill chippies use it more and more these days.

Some of the fancier fish and chip outlets also do shellfish, monkfish and other types of fish that hike the price considerably.

For me, you can’t beat a chippy (haddock or cod, with lashings of salt, vinegar and pickled onion) whilst sitting at the sea front, eaten using your hands and washed down with a cup of tea or drink of fizzy juice (soda to the North American and pop to the Sassenachs).

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/2/2023 8:39:07 AM
9-2 sadly yesterday Jimmy Buffett passed away!

9-3, 1609 Henry Hudson founds New York, then New Amstedam! Why couldn't the Dutch hold it? Anyone??

1658, Olive Cromwell dies, how was he vital to the English Civil War?? Comments?

1783 the Treaty of Paris! Was the treaty to favorable to the new US??

1894 1st Labor Day! How was yours??

& 9-4 in history,

925 A Saxon king becomes the 1st king to rule all of England!? How, & why??

1870 Napoleon III deposed of as France's 1st president! How did this occur!? Political or military? What say you??

1989 NASA launches last Titan rocket!? What was it's problem? TO dangerous or to expensive?? Anyone?

9-5's history,

1793 Reign of Terror in France! Why so bloody?? Anyone?

1836 Sam Houston becomes 1 st President of Texas! He later begged Texas not to join the Confederacy! They should have listened!? What say you??

1972 Munich Olympics attacked by terrorists!? Why? & Was security bad?? Anyone?

2001 Scientists discover black holes in space!? Why do so many people, especially in the US, not believe in Science!? Comments??

, 9-6 in history,

1901 Pres. William McKinley assassination occurs! Who, & why? anyone??

1914 the 1st battle of Marne starts, can some one give us a good website or synopsis of it??

1944 Germans fire the 1st V-2 Rocket! Did Great Britain have a defense for it?? Anyone?

1997 Princess Diana's funeral! Did the Paparazzi ever have to pay any repirations?? Who was mostly to blame??.what say you??

Again heading up north, no internet, so I'm,
Getting ahead of myself!
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/2/2023 8:39:45 AM
Our fish and chip shops here in Ontario generally fry cod and haddock and halibut. Halibut is popular but you will pay a premium for that. It is my preference with haddock a close second.

There is a place in town that also uses White Fish which is a freshwater fish. And there are fish fry-up places on Lake Erie that use perch.

I'm getting hungry now.

Cheers,

George
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
9/2/2023 9:46:07 AM
Well George, you know what to do!

Enjoy!

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
GregT
Three Rivers MA USA
Posts: 164
Joined: 2013
This day in World History! Continued
9/2/2023 1:00:43 PM
What exactly are the authentic "chips"?

I assume we aren't talking french fries.
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