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Message
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/10/2022 12:27:25 AM
Steve and George, thanks for correcting my comments about apologies to Canadian indigenous peoples from Protestant churches.

George, you say: Quote:
We have an aggressive immigration programme in Canada. It pains me when new Canadians may only recite the excesses and evil of the residential school system. "You stole this land from the Indians", is a popular refrain.

Yes the country was colonized and much of it was settled at the expense of the FN people. We have much to do to repair our relationship with these disparate nations.

But it is worth remembering that there was and is great appeal to this country and that we all have benefitted from the work done by the settlers who came before us. That includes the newest of immigrants and other Canadians who came before. The FN and Métis and Inuit?? Not so much but they have not been completely cast aside either.

I too am a proud Canadian – one who believes Canada offers either a relatively safe haven for refugees and/or a wonderful opportunity to start afresh without losing values from a past life. Unlike you, I have not met any immigrants who “only recite the excesses and evil of he residential school system”. If I were to meet them, I would have trouble not agreeing with them, and – given the various levels of ugliness and abuse they face despite being “invited” here – I would have trouble denying their concerns.

Seems to me that until we stop talking about accepting equal concepts of these people, in religious values, public dress, gender behaviour or faith driven conduct, and instead engender a culture that is truly inclusinve, we should not sell our nation as a kind and embracing nation prepared to provide decency to immigrants or refugees.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/10/2022 8:32:35 AM
Quote:
Unlike you, I have not met any immigrants who “only recite the excesses and evil of he residential school system”.


I have Brian. And I have read just that same quote in the Toronto newspapers. I have heard the same comment from some of the kids that I taught. Usually the comment is, "Canada stole this land from the Indians".

It saddens me that the only narrative of the development of this country starts and ends with colonialism and the harm done to indigenous populations. That seems to be where we are right now. We may not praise the efforts of the early settlers who actually built a nation because we must full stop at the treatment of indigenous people. A complete history must be taught and that includes the parts that we do not like. Does that relationship with the first people define this country completely?

Surely not. And while we are at it, should the First Nations people not be willing to acknowledge the nasty parts of their own history. The slaughter and destruction of the Wendat culture by the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) is but one example.

There was a story in the Toronto Star recently about a woman who was an immigrant and in trying to explain the evil of the residential school system to her own kids, she felt it necessary to explain to them that they too were the beneficiaries of the colonial system and settlement here in Canada. And so are we all.

The behaviour of the developers of this country toward the indigenous people was shameful. We cannot dismiss or hide that. My point is that we must not dismiss this country as immoral and hypocritical because of this treatment of indigenous people. The good and the bad; teach and remember it all.

I think that you read my comment and have determined that I am anti-immigrant. Not so. The benefits of immigration are clear to me.
But I am critical of our policy of official multi-culturalism. In its current format, I am not sure that it promotes nation building.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/10/2022 2:21:40 PM
Quote:
1917 Vimy Ridge in France is stormed by Canadian troops! Anyone with details of this battle??


Often cited as the moment in time that Canada became a nation, the Battle of Vimy Ridge was certainly a seminal moment in the evolution of the march to emotional independence for the young nation which had been in existence for less than 50 years when WW I began.

Canada had entered the war when Britain did and had been honing its military craft since the beginning. The Canadians had shown great bravery and had also made many mistakes as they learned. By 1917 their reputation as a more than capable small army was cemented with a great victory at Vimy Ridge.

Canada would later be involved in battles that were far more strategically significant than was Vimy Ridge. The Battle of Vimy Ridge was part of the greater Battle of Arras which ran from early April to mid-May. This offensive was initially successful and then bogged down. It was expensive in terms of human capital with over 160,000 British casualties which included the Australians (see Bullecourt). The French experienced great losses as well.

When it was all over, British forces had advanced about 10 km to the east.

The Canadian portion of the battle was hailed as a tremendous victory and one that was not anticipated. The Germans had held firmly on this ridge and had built formidable defences.

Vimy Ridge is important because for the first time in Canada's history all four divisions of the Canadian Corps attacked together under the command of British Gen. Julian Byng. The preparation for this battle was superb and the Corps practiced behind the lines on mock-ups of the battle field. Every man knew his short term objectives. The artillery shoot was extremely effective and targets had been pre-sighted. The men were ordered to hug the creeping barrage if they hoped to succeed.

Quote:
“Chaps, you shall go over exactly like a railroad train, on time, or you shall be annihilated,
. Julian Byng, Corps Commander.

The battle took place over 4 days as it took that long to reduce one final German defensive position on the high ground of the ridge.

When it was over, the Canadians stood on the top of the ridge and could see the Germans in retreat over the Douai Plain.

Back home, the country was enthralled with the accomplishments of their Corps. They felt more "Canadian", whatever that may mean.








When the war ended, Canada sought a place in France to place a national memorial. The new commander of the Corps was Gen. Arthur Currie and he always felt that his Canadian Corps had been involved in many more impactful battles than Vimy Ridge but the government and many of men cited the elation that they felt at the seizure of a ridge that had stymied the efforts of other nations.

And so the Canadian National War Memorial sits atop Vimy Ridge on land granted to Canada in perpetuity. It is one of the most beautiful monuments to be found in France and on it are the names of thousands of Canadians whose graves are unknown. I have made my pilgrimage to Vimy and found the experience to be humbling and meaningful. That happens I suppose with the realization that one's countrymen walked these slopes to the top.



The cost? As with many WW1 battles, there was a heavy price in blood to be paid. 3578 men were killed with another 7,000 wounded.

Four members of the Corps won the Victoria Cross.


Finally, a 6 minute video narrated by William Shatner:

[Read More]

The details of the battle and the accomplishments of each of the divisions involved are interesting but probably best discussed in the WW I section of the forum.

Cheers,

George





Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/10/2022 7:20:00 PM
George, you are incorrect in thinking I see you as anti-immigrant. In truth, I think we would find much common ground on the matter.

What I started out to note is that your experience and mine concerning discussions amongst recent immigrants to Canada are vastly different. I admit I live in a very white city, where the largest visible minority are the homeless. We have a relatively large Asian/South Asian population, including fourth and fifth generation Chinese and Japanese. In my residential apartment of 42 units, I have chatted with Nepalese, East German, Romanian, Pakistani, US and Filipino tenants. My bank tellers are Chinese, Indonesian and Scottish; my tailor is Russian Latvian. So while I live in a predominantly while place, I interact with them daily.

Not once have I heard them mention anything about Residential School issues. They talk about the challenges of learning English, the casual nastiness of whites, the joy of feeling they have a future; they talk about their fear of the homeless people around us; they complain about Canada wasting their skills and training, particularly in the medical and research fields. And they work hard to get ahead. They’re not all nice or polite or genial, but typically they seem much like their fellow Canadians, with a few additional issues to deal with.

I’ll admit I sense a vast separation of culture and behaviour between various parts of Canada. Perhaps this explains the differences in our experience: in the West, we don’t go looking for such issues.

At any rate, I was really only trying to say that until Canada faces a number of historic issues, and makes sure they never come close to happening again, I fear we have a long way to go before we can claim great status as a nation. It’s sad to say, but treatment of our FN peoples is still shameful, whether before the law or in ongoing social, educational and medical negligence.

This discussion doesn’t belong in this thread. Maybe it no longer belongs on MHO, since the sense of community has eroded so fully. But I felt the need to make myself a little clearer than I obviously was in my last post.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/10/2022 7:39:12 PM
On today’s date in 1938, the plebiscite determining the union of Germany and Austria was approved, with a “yea” vote of 99.7%. “Britannica” calls this a “controlled plebiscite”, since in fact it was a vote to approve an event (the Anschluss) which took place on 12 Mar 1938. As German troops entered Austria on 12 March, they appeared to be welcomed with open arms by a majority of the populace. This Nazi-controlled plebiscite ws merely another means of demonstrating Germany’s alignment with germanic volk. And although “Anschluss” means “union” in German, this was not a unification so much as an absorption.

IIRC, this plebiscite was also a trigger for Hitler’s plans for the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/10/2022 9:21:49 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1917 Vimy Ridge in France is stormed by Canadian troops! Anyone with details of this battle??


Often cited as the moment in time that Canada became a nation, the Battle of Vimy Ridge was certainly a seminal moment in the evolution of the march to emotional independence for the young nation which had been in existence for less than 50 years when WW I began.

Canada had entered the war when Britain did and had been honing its military craft since the beginning. The Canadians had shown great bravery and had also made many mistakes as they learned. By 1917 their reputation as a more than capable small army was cemented with a great victory at Vimy Ridge.

Canada would later be involved in battles that were far more strategically significant than was Vimy Ridge. The Battle of Vimy Ridge was part of the greater Battle of Arras which ran from early April to mid-May. This offensive was initially successful and then bogged down. It was expensive in terms of human capital with over 160,000 British casualties which included the Australians (see Bullecourt). The French experienced great losses as well.

When it was all over, British forces had advanced about 10 km to the east.

The Canadian portion of the battle was hailed as a tremendous victory and one that was not anticipated. The Germans had held firmly on this ridge and had built formidable defences.

Vimy Ridge is important because for the first time in Canada's history all four divisions of the Canadian Corps attacked together under the command of British Gen. Julian Byng. The preparation for this battle was superb and the Corps practiced behind the lines on mock-ups of the battle field. Every man knew his short term objectives. The artillery shoot was extremely effective and targets had been pre-sighted. The men were ordered to hug the creeping barrage if they hoped to succeed.

Quote:
“Chaps, you shall go over exactly like a railroad train, on time, or you shall be annihilated,
. Julian Byng, Corps Commander.

The battle took place over 4 days as it took that long to reduce one final German defensive position on the high ground of the ridge.

When it was over, the Canadians stood on the top of the ridge and could see the Germans in retreat over the Douai Plain.

Back home, the country was enthralled with the accomplishments of their Corps. They felt more "Canadian", whatever that may mean.








When the war ended, Canada sought a place in France to place a national memorial. The new commander of the Corps was Gen. Arthur Currie and he always felt that his Canadian Corps had been involved in many more impactful battles than Vimy Ridge but the government and many of men cited the elation that they felt at the seizure of a ridge that had stymied other nations.

And so the Canadian National War Memorial sits atop Vimy Ridge on land granted to Canada in perpetuity. It is one of the most beautiful monuments to be found in France and on it are the names of thousands of Canadians whose graves are unknown. I have made my pilgrimage to Vimy and found the experience to be humbling and meaningful. That happens I suppose with the realization that one's countrymen walked these slopes to the top.



The cost? As with many WW1 battles, there was a heavy price in blood to be paid. 3578 men were killed with another 7,000 wounded.

Four members of the Corps won the Victoria Cross.


Finally, a 6 minute video narrated by William Shatner:

[Read More]

The details of the battle and the accomplishments of each of the divisions involved are interesting but probably best discussed in the WW I section of the forum.

Cheers,

George








H George,

Excellent post on the great Canadian victory over the Germans at Vimy Ridge! (Being 4 days long, & complex its a little like Gettysburg??) So It got my curiosity up, & having then read in depth about the battle, I must say the preparations that went into it was meticulous! The Canadian knowledge of the battlefield, the knowing of German troops ,& gun placements, (especially machine guns) tunnels, trenches, ect. was extrodinary! By using air reconisence the plan of using mobile artillery, with leapfrog ground attacks at the enemy line by the brave Canadian Infantry was well thought out! Reviewing all this again & again with the officers, & troops, so each group knew their duty! Having Canadian officers leading Canadian soldiers had to be a big plus, unlike some previous battles!? What say you??! The 4 th division had problems but the other 3 advanced like clockwork! Much like a major sporting event, if a team is extremely well prepared, they will succeed! The use of coordinated infantry attacks supported by a large mobile artillery,, also using massive pre attack shelling & sabotage the Germans were weary & tired, not ready to stop such an attack! The Canadians, learned from the failures of the French, & the British! They deserved to win this critical battle, they deserve to get all the accolades they recieved! im proud of my friends, the country to my north! Canadian brewskies, vinegar chips, & butter tarts all around on me!!!! On the other hand this is a much more column occasion, the sadness of losing so many good lives! What a sacrifice! Again much like Gettysburg, !?

Well done! But also,
Respect to Canada!
MD

BTW nice video from William Shatner, Captain Kirk knows battle success when he see it!!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/11/2022 8:33:44 AM
Quote:
Excellent post on the great Canadian victory over the Germans at Vimy Ridge! (Being 4 days long, & complex its a little like Gettysburg??) So It got my curiosity up, & having then read in depth about the battle, I must say the preparations that went into it was meticulous! The Canadian knowledge of the battlefield, the knowing of German troops ,& gun placements, (especially machine guns) tunnels, trenches, ect. was extrodinary! By using air reconisence the plan of using mobile artillery, with leapfrog ground attacks at the enemy line by the brave Canadian Infantry was well thought out! Reviewing all this again & again with the officers, & troops, so each group knew their duty! Having Canadian officers leading Canadian soldiers had to be a big plus, unlike some previous battles!? What say you??! The 4 th division had problems but the other 3 advanced like clockwork! Much like a major sporting event, if a team is extremely well prepared, they will succeed! The use of coordinated infantry attacks supported by a large mobile artillery,, also using massive pre attack shelling & sabotage the Germans were weary & tired, not ready to stop such an attack! The Canadians, learned from the failures of the French, & the British! They deserved to win this critical battle, they deserve to get all the accolades they recieved! im proud of my friends, the country to my north! Canadian brewskies, vinegar chips, & butter tarts all around on me!!!! On the other hand this is a much more column occasion, the sadness of losing so many good lives! What a sacrifice! Again much like Gettysburg, !?


Thanks MD. I know little of the Gettysburg battle so I will not comment on any parallels that may exist. If there are parallels, I would like to hear about them.

The commander of the Canadian Corps at the time of the Vimy Ridge battle was Julian Byng and he was British. He was well loved by the Canadians who called themselves, "Byng's Boys". Byng was promoted after this battle and command of the Corps was given to a Canadian, Arthur Currie. Currie lead the Corps through the rest of the war and became one of the most respected generals on the allied side.

After the war, Sir Julian Byng was appointed as the Governor General of Canada so he lived in Canada for a few years.

We need to remember that the Canadian Corps was fighting as part of the British Army in WW1. General Currie was innovative but he also benefited from the relationship with the British. War fighting evolved throughout the war and the British too were changing tactics and sharing knowledge with all who fought with them. So were the French who were visited by British officers and Gen. Currie to learn from them.


As well, British staff officers were very important to the success of the Canadian Corps. Canada needed them. As a small country with very little military history, there were insufficient numbers of well trained Canadians to furnish all of the staff officers needed.

Having said all of that, the Canadian Corps did us proud at Vimy and in many other battles to the end of the war.

Cheers,

George


Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/11/2022 9:28:22 PM
Busy day in history, but few events worth writing about at length. Among items I find interesting for one think or another are the following:
• 1814. Under pressure from his own officers, Napoleon abdicated unconditionally at Fontainebleau.

• 2007. Kurt Vonnegut, best known for his Slaughterhouse-Five (1969), a noire novel following GI prisoners from the Bulge to Dresden, died at 84. Vonnegut is normally considered a “cult” writer, but he deserves more serious attention.

• 1961. The eight-month long trial of Adolf Eichmann began in Jerusalem, leading to the only death sentence Israel has ever imposed (through their courts).

• 1951. President Truman relieved General Douglas MacArthur of his command during the Korean police action.

• 1895. José Martí led an invasion of Cuba to overthrow Spanish rule. He remains a revered man to this day.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/11/2022 9:29:25 PM
dup
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2022 9:31:58 AM
Quote:
[Read More]

[Read More]

[Read More]

3 perpetual sites, check for topics.?
cheers,
MD

Lets check 4-12 in history, what about the following topics? Comments, anyone??

1204 the Crusaders Occupy & plunder Constantinople all in the name of religion! What say you about the Crusades? Were they a good thing??

1606 England adopts the Union Flag, later the Union Jack, does anyone have a website with the various flags of that island nation??

1782 the Battle of the Saints leads the British fleet over the French in the West Indies, how does this effect the area, & N. America??

1844 Texas is annexed by the US, how does this set with Mexico, & the US South??

1861 the Battle for Fort Sumter! Did S Carolina & the Confederacy really believe they could leave the Union without a long horrific war?? What say you??

1864 CSA Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest captures Fort Pillow! What really happened with regards to Black Union Troops surrendering! Anyone have a take on this??

1869 N. Carolina passes anti Kru Klux Klan law, how did they know the Klan would be so horrific racially? How is the Klan today? Anyone??

1942 Japan executes 100 Philippineo Officers! I would say that's a war crime, what say you?
Was The IJA officers held accountable?? Anyone??

1945 Canadian troops liberate the Concentration Camp from the Nazis in Westerbrok, Holland! Anyone have the details on what they found there??

1985 16th Shuttle Mission, what say you about this NASA program? Certainly cost saving, reusing Shuttles??

Damn Putin!??
MD




BTW George,

Gettysburg was in some ways simular with Vimy, in that attacks in involving troops attacking fortified high ground were made involving many factors, also these battles were only 50 years appart, I'll elaborate later!

& Bri.,

I recognized all of the famous people in your events post from yesterday, except Jose Marti, the Cuban Revolutionary?? I guess I'm not up on Cuban History as I should be??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2022 11:02:11 AM
Quote:
1945 Canadian troops liberate the Concentration Camp from the Nazis in Westerbrok, Holland! Anyone have the details on what they found there??


Westerbork was a transit camp and a detention camp in the Nazi system. Over 100,000 Jews and Roma and political prisoners were interned here awaiting transport to other concentration and extermination camps.

It was actually opened in 1939 by the Dutch as a place to house Jewish refugees fleeing from the German advance. There were 750 Jews in the camps when Germany invaded Netherlands. The Germans took over the place and in 1942 began to transport prisoners. Most were sent to Auschwitz or Sobibor where they were gassed or put to work.

The SS actually kept the prisoners reasonably happy at Westerbork in order to make the people to be transferred more co-operative.

There were no more transports after Sept. of 1944. The first allied troops arriving at the camp was a company from the 8th Canadian Reconnaissance Regiment. This was April 12, 1945. The gates were open and the guard towers were empty as they entered. Initially the prisoners were hiding fearful that the Germans had returned to kill them. Then they streamed out of the huts and swarmed the Canadians shouting, "The Tommies are here". They would not have immediately known the difference between a Canadian and a British soldier.

Apparently 3/4's of Dutch Jews were murdered during the war and that percentage is much higher than that of France or Belgium.



Anne Franck's family spent time at Westerbork prior to heading to other camps.

The camp was levelled but a small memorial remains including a section of the railway tracks bent in an upward position at the end. I do not know the significance of that.



Cheers,

George


George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2022 2:52:03 PM
Quote:
1844 Texas is annexed by the US, how does this set with Mexico, & the US South??


I think that we can surmise that the Mexicans were pretty unhappy about that development just as they were about the Texans taking a portion of their country and declaring it a republic in 1836 (I think).

Mexico lost territory that is greater than the size of Mexico today.

But Texas had asked to be annexed very early in the history of the Republic of Texas but had been turned down by the US Congress. At that time, the US didn't want a war with Mexico. The US was concerned about bringing in another slave state.

Fasts forward ten years and the subject is broached again but this time the British opposed the annexation. Not their business?

They thought so because US expansionism threatened their trade and there was opposition to slavery. They had been trading with Texas profitably. As I recall, there was opposition to the entry of Texas into the union in the northern states as well. And some Texan politicians opposed annexation as well because Britain was trying to get Mexico to recognize Texas as an independent state.

The US Senate initially rejected this annexation. But eventually the treaty of annexation was ratified.

And shortly after the US declared war on Mexico on May 13, 1846. Why? I believe that imperialism and land acquisition had a lot to do with it. Adding Texas to the union would further the efforts to acquire what would become the SW states in the union.

Cheers,

George



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2022 10:08:28 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1917 Vimy Ridge in France is stormed by Canadian troops! Anyone with details of this battle??


Often cited as the moment in time that Canada became a nation, the Battle of Vimy Ridge was certainly a seminal moment in the evolution of the march to emotional independence for the young nation which had been in existence for less than 50 years when WW I began.

Canada had entered the war when Britain did and had been honing its military craft since the beginning. The Canadians had shown great bravery and had also made many mistakes as they learned. By 1917 their reputation as a more than capable small army was cemented with a great victory at Vimy Ridge.

Canada would later be involved in battles that were far more strategically significant than was Vimy Ridge. The Battle of Vimy Ridge was part of the greater Battle of Arras which ran from early April to mid-May. This offensive was initially successful and then bogged down. It was expensive in terms of human capital with over 160,000 British casualties which included the Australians (see Bullecourt). The French experienced great losses as well.

When it was all over, British forces had advanced about 10 km to the east.

The Canadian portion of the battle was hailed as a tremendous victory and one that was not anticipated. The Germans had held firmly on this ridge and had built formidable defences.

Vimy Ridge is important because for the first time in Canada's history all four divisions of the Canadian Corps attacked together under the command of British Gen. Julian Byng. The preparation for this battle was superb and the Corps practiced behind the lines on mock-ups of the battle field. Every man knew his short term objectives. The artillery shoot was extremely effective and targets had been pre-sighted. The men were ordered to hug the creeping barrage if they hoped to succeed.

Quote:
“Chaps, you shall go over exactly like a railroad train, on time, or you shall be annihilated,
. Julian Byng, Corps Commander.

The battle took place over 4 days as it took that long to reduce one final German defensive position on the high ground of the ridge.

When it was over, the Canadians stood on the top of the ridge and could see the Germans in retreat over the Douai Plain.

Back home, the country was enthralled with the accomplishments of their Corps. They felt more "Canadian", whatever that may mean.








When the war ended, Canada sought a place in France to place a national memorial. The new commander of the Corps was Gen. Arthur Currie and he always felt that his Canadian Corps had been involved in many more impactful battles than Vimy Ridge but the government and many of men cited the elation that they felt at the seizure of a ridge that had stymied other nations.

And so the Canadian National War Memorial sits atop Vimy Ridge on land granted to Canada in perpetuity. It is one of the most beautiful monuments to be found in France and on it are the names of thousands of Canadians whose graves are unknown. I have made my pilgrimage to Vimy and found the experience to be humbling and meaningful. That happens I suppose with the realization that one's countrymen walked these slopes to the top.



The cost? As with many WW1 battles, there was a heavy price in blood to be paid. 3578 men were killed with another 7,000 wounded.

Four members of the Corps won the Victoria Cross.


Finally, a 6 minute video narrated by William Shatner:

[Read More]

The details of the battle and the accomplishments of each of the divisions involved are interesting but probably best discussed in the WW I section of the forum.

Cheers,

George








H George,

Excellent post on the great Canadian victory over the Germans at Vimy Ridge! (Being 4 days long, & complex its a little like Gettysburg??) So It got my curiosity up, & having then read in depth about the battle, I must say the preparations that went into it was meticulous! The Canadian knowledge of the battlefield, the knowing of German troops ,& gun placements, (especially machine guns) tunnels, trenches, ect. was extrodinary! By using air reconisence the plan of using mobile artillery, with leapfrog ground attacks at the enemy line by the brave Canadian Infantry was well thought out! Reviewing all this again & again with the officers, & troops, so each group knew their duty! Having Canadian officers leading Canadian soldiers had to be a big plus, unlike some previous battles!? What say you??! The 4 th division had problems but the other 3 advanced like clockwork! Much like a major sporting event, if a team is extremely well prepared, they will succeed! The use of coordinated infantry attacks supported by a large mobile artillery,, also using massive pre attack shelling & sabotage the Germans were weary & tired, not ready to stop such an attack! The Canadians, learned from the failures of the French, & the British! They deserved to win this critical battle, they deserve to get all the accolades they recieved! im proud of my friends, the country to my north! Canadian brewskies, vinegar chips, & butter tarts all around on me!!!! On the other hand this is a much more column occasion, the sadness of losing so many good lives! What a sacrifice! Again much like Gettysburg, !?

Some parallels between Vinyl Ridge & Gettysburg!!

Both involving long lines of enemy facing each other!
One side usually victorious, the other in previous conflicts not so much?
Being only 50 years between battles, tactics & weapons were simular!
Long bombardments prevailed before, & during the attacks!
It took multiple days to decide the victors!!
The Army with the larger force, & better strategy won!
The loser of this important battle would ultimately lose the war!
One difference, the side holding the high ground lost in this battle!!

Any other students of the Civil War,
Want to comment??
Regards,
MD


----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2022 10:13:45 PM
George, thank you for the story. It strikes somewhat close to home.

In 1960, I spent 4 months roaming Europe. Much of the time my brother and I travelled with two Ozzie girls doing their “walkabout” and a German lad who was , so the story went, banned from Germany because he refused to be conscripted, and could not return home until the period of his conscription ended. His reason for not serving? His father was “murdered” with the fall of Paris, and he felt any responsibility to the state was cancelled with his father’s death. He was a good travelling companion, and a couple of years later visited us in Vancouver on his way to Oz.

Much of this story appears to have been a lie. His father did not die until the mid 1950s. If more recent research is correct, his father was an early and ardent Nazi. More, he joined the SS long before the war began. He was a doctor by education and training, but became a Nazi bureaucrat. Amongst other responsibilities later in the war, he was responsible for signing travel documents for those held in this camp and others in northern France, Belgium and Holland. He was deemed responsible for the transportation of more than 35,000 souls to KZs and extermination camps. His death in Paris was, it appears, his cover.

Beyond that, I am intrigued by the photo of folks lining up to board that rather mixed-car train. Is this a Nazi photo of folks being transported? A shot of inmates being moved after liberation? Do you know?

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/12/2022 11:06:23 PM
MD, you write: Quote:
I recognized all of the famous people in your events post from yesterday, except Jose Marti, the Cuban Revolutionary?? I guess I'm not up on Cuban History as I should be?

MD, you’re probably not old enough! He was a revolutionary poet, writer, polemicist and fighter.

Seriously, Marti resurfaced in North America in the wake of the Fidel Castro assault on the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista. I lose track of specific dates, but in music he was honoured by Pete Seeger.
[Read More]

Of course, I don’t know if you know much about Pete Seeger. He was blacklisted (along with the other members of the Weavers) for his political views, when HUAC was “cleansing” the US of the right to think (Hmm…let’s put that down as a slip of the tongue!). But in the six or seven years when folk music was central (say, starting with the Kingston Trio (1957) and ending with the impact of the Beatles (1963) Pete (and his acolytes and friends) kept the true rage of American folk music alive.

I could go on. Of course. I always can. But let me just leave you with this: Jose Marti might be forgotten, but in US folk, protest and working songs he was recognized and used as at least a model of a “man of the people”.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 2:26:10 AM
Quote:

The cost? As with many WW1 battles, there was a heavy price in blood to be paid. 3578 men were killed with another 7,000 wounded.


Cheers,

George







Hi George,

How could I have missed posting on this one ? And on Appomattox, too !

A strange feature of the casualty counts in the Great War : the British always kept a difference between the missing and the killed ; the Canadians - and other Dominion contingents - conflated them. Were the British more meticulous, or were they downright fastidious, in this respect ?

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 7:57:34 AM
Quote:
Beyond that, I am intrigued by the photo of folks lining up to board that rather mixed-car train. Is this a Nazi photo of folks being transported? A shot of inmates being moved after liberation? Do you know?


Brian, the caption indicated that these people were leaving Westerbork for other camps. I do not know who took the photo.

They were treated reasonably well at Westerbork and as I said, that was because the Germans didn't want them to be alarmed when it came time to depart for the death camps.

I noted that the people seemed to have their luggage and personal goods with them. Apparently Westerbork authorities even provided health and dental care so it was a different sort of camp. We aren't talking Club Med of course. Perhaps one of the inmates had a camera.

As well, there was an active Nazi movement in the Netherlands and many of the guards at Westerbork were Netherlanders. Perhaps one of them took the photos. Just blue skying here.

EDIT:

The photo that I provided is owned by the Anne Frank Organization, but that doesn't tell us who took the photo. So I did a little digging and found that the photo of people boarding the train was taken by a Jewish photographer who was an inmate by the name of Rudolf Breslauer.

So I did a wiki search on Breslauer and discovered that he had been ordered by the German camp commandant, Albert Konrad Gemmeker, to make a photographic record of life in the camp.

Here is Breslauer filming inside a building at Westerbork.



Breslauer and his wife and three children were transported from Westerbork to Auschwitz in the autumn of 1944. His wife and two sons were killed immediately. He died a few months later. Only his daughter Ursula survived.

It's difficult to write a paragraph like that and not become emotionally involved. So sad.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 8:29:17 AM
MD,

Vimy Ridge like Gettysburg ?

Big difference in one crucial respect : Gettysburg was an encounter battle, fought beyond the desire and design of the opponents. Vimy Ridge was the opposite : a static field for years, with an immaculately planned set piece offensive prevailing over a fixed and consolidated position of a formidable defence.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 9:58:01 AM
Quote:
Quote:
[Read More]

[Read More]

[Read More]

3 perpetual sites, check for topics.?
cheers,
MD

Lets check 4-12 in history, what about the following topics? Not all Commented on yet, anyone??

1204 the Crusaders Occupy & plunder Constantinople all in the name of religion! What say you about the Crusades? Were they a good thing??

1606 England adopts the Union Flag, later the Union Jack, does anyone have a website with the various flags of that island nation??

1782 the Battle of the Saints leads the British fleet over the French in the West Indies, how does this effect the area, & N. America??

1844 Texas is annexed by the US, how does this set with Mexico, & the US South??

1861 the Battle for Fort Sumter! Did S Carolina & the Confederacy really believe they could leave the Union without a long horrific war?? What say you??

1864 CSA Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest captures Fort Pillow! What really happened with regards to Black Union Troops surrendering! Anyone have a take on this??

1869 N. Carolina passes anti Kru Klux Klan law, how did they know the Klan would be so horrific racially? How is the Klan today? Anyone??

1942 Japan executes 100 Philippineo Officers! I would say that's a war crime, what say you?
Was The IJA officers held accountable?? Anyone??

1945 Canadian troops liberate the Concentration Camp from the Nazis in Westerbrok, Holland! Anyone have the details on what they found there??

1985 16th Shuttle Mission, what say you about this NASA program? Certainly cost saving, reusing Shuttles??

Check 4-13 in history, as well!? comments anyone?

1769 Capt. James Cook arrives in Tahiti, what an experience that had to be? It's on my bucket list, slim chance?Comments on Europeans visiting Tahiti early on??

1860 1st Pony Express reaches California, what a dangerous, exciting job, that had to be??

1861 after 34 hours of bombardment, Fort Sumter surrenders, no caution used by the attackers from South Carolina!? Citizens watching & cheering from Charleston roof tops! How did it come to this? Anyone??

1904 Russian Fleet loses to the Japanese! How could Japan defeat Russia? Anyone??

1919 British Troops open fire on Indian citizens, including women, & children! Killing 350! How could this possibly happen? I thought the Brits. were good guys? Anyone??

1941 USSR, & Japan sign a non aggression pact! I thought they were enemies? Why then??

1945, A single Canadian soldier, Leo Major liberates a Dutch town of Zwolle!? How could he possibly do this?? Anyone??

1970 Apollo13 has a mid flight explosion, & must fight for there lives! It was quite the world-wide event? Where were you & what did you think about their plight? Comments?? Also a great Tom Hanks movie on it! Have you seen it??

Again lots to discuss here??
Regards,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
MikeMeech
 UK
Posts: 528
Joined: 2012
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 11:25:47 AM
Quote:
Quote:

The cost? As with many WW1 battles, there was a heavy price in blood to be paid. 3578 men were killed with another 7,000 wounded.


Cheers,

George







A strange feature of the casualty counts in the Great War : the British always kept a difference between the missing and the killed ; the Canadians - and other Dominion contingents - conflated them. Were the British more meticulous, or were they downright fastidious, in this respect ?

Regards, Phil


Hi Phil

Are you sure about that? I have gone through a lot of Division/Corps/Army level War Diaries (including Australian and Canadian) and they appear to follow the same Staff Paperwork (orders, forms, layouts etc. all follow basically the same format) in that casualties are marked up as killed/wounded/missing with officers and ORs separate (Corps WDs have 'Weekly Operational Summaries' that include casualties for that week for example). This should not be surprising as they were either British or British trained Staff Officers. Or do you mean post war histories?

Mike
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 12:34:51 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

The cost? As with many WW1 battles, there was a heavy price in blood to be paid. 3578 men were killed with another 7,000 wounded.


Cheers,

George







A strange feature of the casualty counts in the Great War : the British always kept a difference between the missing and the killed ; the Canadians - and other Dominion contingents - conflated them. Were the British more meticulous, or were they downright fastidious, in this respect ?

Regards, Phil


Hi Phil

Are you sure about that? I have gone through a lot of Division/Corps/Army level War Diaries (including Australian and Canadian) and they appear to follow the same Staff Paperwork (orders, forms, layouts etc. all follow basically the same format) in that casualties are marked up as killed/wounded/missing with officers and ORs separate (Corps WDs have 'Weekly Operational Summaries' that include casualties for that week for example). This should not be surprising as they were either British or British trained Staff Officers. Or do you mean post war histories?

Mike


Hello Mike,

Your comments are correct and I must defer to your more scholarly research into primal documents. My remarks are based on what I see in the post war histories. For some reasons which I find intriguing, the British insisted on keeping the missing separate from the killed in the assessment of the casualties in the official history. The Australians and the Canadians did not seem to do this. It makes a big difference in the ratios of killed to wounded : the Vimy Ridge figures cited make the point. The British Official History gives the following( including Dominion contingents) for the 1917 Battle of Arras : Killed, 30,000; wounded, 108,000; missing 20,000. I've rounded the numbers. The Canadian figures reveal that more than one third of their casualties were fatal. The overall British and Dominion figures cited in the OH indicate fewer than 20% were killed. The Canadian account includes the missing who were dead, and, I suspect, many who died of wounds. The British version keeps those categories out, and confines the killed to those confirmed as such, without reference to the large number of missing who were obviously dead. I wonder why.
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 1:38:15 PM
Quote:
MD,

Vimy Ridge like Gettysburg ?

Big difference in one crucial respect : Gettysburg was an encounter battle, fought beyond the desire and design of the opponents. Vimy Ridge was the opposite : a static field for years, with an immaculately planned set piece offensive prevailing over a fixed and consolidated position of a formidable defence.

Regards, Phil


Hello Phil,

I was wondering whether there is any comparison that can be made between the artillery operations during the Civil War and that of 1917/18. Were the advances in artillery spotting and the different types of shoots used in WW1 also evident in the civil war?

Were siege guns and field guns available in the 1860's? Did the civil war gunners have access to quick firing weapons? Was there and advancement in the types of shells available to shoot?

Certainly, there were no aircraft to be used for reconnaissance and bombing during the civil war.

It seems to me that the use of artillery was a greater factor in WW1 than in the civil war.

I did read that 60% of casualties in WW I were caused by the explosion of artillery shells. I do not have a similar figure for the Civil War.

I also read that artillery fire in some of the battles of the Civil War were decided by the use of artillery. What I do not know was whether the formations used by the civil war armies made them more susceptible to deadly artillery fire even if it was not as advanced in development as it would be in WW I.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 1:38:15 PM
double
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 4:46:45 PM
Quote:
1945, A single Canadian soldier, Leo Major liberates a Dutch town of Zwolle!? How could he possibly do this?? Anyone??


Quite a soldier. Earned a Distinguished Conduct Medal in WW II and again in Korea. There was a movie or video made of him called the "One Eyed Ghost".

He was a French-Canadian and grew up in Montréal though he was born in Massachusetts. Died in 2008/ The legend of Léo Major is well known to students of Canadian Military History and perhaps with the general public too after his exploits were described in film. In 2020 the man was honoured with a Canada Post stamp.

But generally Canada doesn't do a great job of praising our war heroes. I am not sure why but I know Leo Major's story so here we go.



He came ashore on D-day. He was a sniper and a member of recce squadron of Le Régiment de la Chaudière. On D-day he was wounded when a German phosphorous grenade exploded near him and blinded him in his left eye. He killed the four SS soldiers as he was wounded. He insisted that he only required his right eye to shoot and for some reason was not evacuated.

He fought in the Battle of the Scheldt. He captured 93 German soldiers on his own but he declined the DCM that was offered at that time. I recall reading that he did not like Montgomery and would not want to receive a medal from him.

In the Battle of the Rhineland, he was in a Bren Gun carrier that hit a mine and he was badly hurt and suffered spinal injuries but he asked to be sent back to his regiment despite the pain after a recovery period in the home of a Dutch family.

Later, the Chaudières were outside of the town of Zwolle, about 40 km north of Apeldoorn in the Netherlands. Lèo and his best friend, Willy Arsenault volunteered to enter the town to scout. They engaged the Germans that they found and killed a few. While crossing a railway line, Arsenault was killed. This apparently set Major off and he used a STEN and grenades to kill as many Germans as he could. He created havoc in the town.

So the story goes Léo eventually met with the German commander in Zwolle and convinced him that the town was surrounded by Canadian soldiers who were preparing to enter to kill them. During the night, the Germans disappeared. He had bluffed his way through it.

He had a number of German soldiers and the commander under his guard but he let them go, hoping that they would persuade their friends to leave. Throughout the night he continued to attack and kill Germans. It is difficult to believe that one man could liberate a town but his actions during that night convinced that Germans that they were under attack. One man liberated a town by himself.

He apparently made 8-10 trips into the town by himself and brought prisoners out with him each time and then he slipped back into the town, all alone. Major was a corporal but a bit of a handful. He was busted down to private a number of times and then would do something extraordinary to get his stripes back.

Major was feted in Zwolle as their liberator and he went back many times over the years as the town celebrated their liberation.

This is Major walking in the town with members of the underground on April 14, 1945.





The town named a street after him.



Léo Major volunteered to fight during the Korean War and for his bravery in leading a stand against a Chinese attack near the hill called Little Gibraltar he was awarded a bar to go with his WW II DCM. That's another story.

A short animated on video about Léo's life

[Read More]

Cheers,

George



Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/13/2022 5:02:16 PM
Quote:
Quote:
MD,

Vimy Ridge like Gettysburg ?

Big difference in one crucial respect : Gettysburg was an encounter battle, fought beyond the desire and design of the opponents. Vimy Ridge was the opposite : a static field for years, with an immaculately planned set piece offensive prevailing over a fixed and consolidated position of a formidable defence.

Regards, Phil


Hello Phil,

I was wondering whether there is any comparison that can be made between the artillery operations during the Civil War and that of 1917/18. Were the advances in artillery spotting and the different types of shoots used in WW1 also evident in the civil war?

Were siege guns and field guns available in the 1860's? Did the civil war gunners have access to quick firing weapons? Was there and advancement in the types of shells available to shoot?

Certainly, there were no aircraft to be used for reconnaissance and bombing during the civil war.

It seems to me that the use of artillery was a greater factor in WW1 than in the civil war.

I did read that 60% of casualties in WW I were caused by the explosion of artillery shells. I do not have a similar figure for the Civil War.

I also read that artillery fire in some of the battles of the Civil War were decided by the use of artillery. What I do not know was whether the formations used by the civil war armies made them more susceptible to deadly artillery fire even if it was not as advanced in development as it would be in WW I.

Cheers,

George


Such an interesting and challenging question, George ! I hope I can do some justice to it.

First thing that's apparent from wound statistics is rather startling : whereas in the warfare of 1914-18, the majority of casualties were inflicted by artillery - well over half, and maybe two thirds - in the American Civil War the figure was barely ten per cent. This is hard to reconcile with many anecdotal accounts. I reckon it's largely attributable to the fact that many civil war battles were fought in heavily wooded landscapes, where artillery deployment was difficult. There were several open, panoramic battles - Gettysburg being the prime example - where the artillery played a much more prominent role. I'm sure that the proportion of artillery casualties was much higher in such engagements. Possession of ground suitable for artillery determined the tactical plans of commanders in the Civil War, so the role of artillery was vital to the way battle developed. When artillery was deployed against infantry in the open, the Civil War demonstrated how deadly artillery could be. This happened in some battles. But the explosive power of Civil War cannons had not developed to the extent that enabled them to do the damage to troops under cover that we associate with WW1. There's so much more to say about this. Let's expand it on another thread if we feel inclined to pursue.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2022 8:40:00 AM
Quote:


Lets check 4-12 in history, what about the following topics? Not all Commented on yet, anyone??

1204 the Crusaders Occupy & plunder Constantinople all in the name of religion! What say you about the Crusades? Were they a good thing??

1606 England adopts the Union Flag, later the Union Jack, does anyone have a website with the various flags of that island nation??

1782 the Battle of the Saints leads the British fleet over the French in the West Indies, how does this effect the area, & N. America??

1844 Texas is annexed by the US, how does this set with Mexico, & the US South??

1861 the Battle for Fort Sumter! Did S Carolina & the Confederacy really believe they could leave the Union without a long horrific war?? What say you??

1864 CSA Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest captures Fort Pillow! What really happened with regards to Black Union Troops surrendering! Anyone have a take on this??

1869 N. Carolina passes anti Kru Klux Klan law, how did they know the Klan would be so horrific racially? How is the Klan today? Anyone??

1942 Japan executes 100 Philippineo Officers! I would say that's a war crime, what say you?
Was The IJA officers held accountable?? Anyone??

1945 Canadian troops liberate the Concentration Camp from the Nazis in Westerbrok, Holland! Anyone have the details on what they found there??

1985 16th Shuttle Mission, what say you about this NASA program? Certainly cost saving, reusing Shuttles??

Check 4-13 in history, as well!? comments anyone?

1769 Capt. James Cook arrives in Tahiti, what an experience that had to be? It's on my bucket list, slim chance?Comments on Europeans visiting Tahiti early on??

1860 1st Pony Express reaches California, what a dangerous, exciting job, that had to be??

1861 after 34 hours of bombardment, Fort Sumter surrenders, no caution used by the attackers from South Carolina!? Citizens watching & cheering from Charleston roof tops! How did it come to this? Anyone??

1904 Russian Fleet loses to the Japanese! How could Japan defeat Russia? Anyone??

1919 British Troops open fire on Indian citizens, including women, & children! Killing 350! How could this possibly happen? I thought the Brits. were good guys? Anyone??

1941 USSR, & Japan sign a non aggression pact! I thought they were enemies? Why then??

1945, A single Canadian soldier, Leo Major liberates a Dutch town of Zwolle!? How could he possibly do this?? Anyone??

1970 Apollo13 has a mid flight explosion, & must fight for there lives! It was quite the world-wide event? Where were you & what did you think about their plight? Comments?? Also a great Tom Hanks movie on it! Have you seen it??

Again lots to discuss here??
Regards,
MD



BTW the big events for today April 14, is the unsinkable ship RMS Titanic hits an ice berg & sinks less than 3 hours later! Lately there have been new theories on what happened to contribute to this catastrophe!?

And of course John Wilkes Booth assassinates President Abraham Lincoln an event that greatly effected America! Comments on the tragedy, & its aftermath! anyone???
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2022 6:37:28 PM
Quote:
1606 England adopts the Union Flag, later the Union Jack, does anyone have a website with the various flags of that island nation??

Try these sites for a basic answer to your question, MD.
[Read More]
[Read More]

To be honest, I thought there was a Union flag somewhat different from the current one. If I’m correct, this would be the flag of 1606, which displays the Cross of St. George (red cross on a white field) imposed on the Cross of St. Andrew (white diagonal cross on a blue field). This flag reflected the kingship of of James I of England, who was also James VI of Scotland. IIUC, the Cross of St. Patrick (red diagonal on a white field) was added in the early 1700s.

Cheers. Hope someone corrects any faux pas!
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/14/2022 7:10:38 PM
An indulgence, but today is the 81st birthday of Julie Christie, one of my favourite actresses over the past 55 years. If you’ve seen “Darling”, for which she won an Oscar, you’ll know why I respect her so. If you admired her as Lara in the first “Dr Zhivago”, you will be aware of her beauty. If you say “Away From Her” from 2006, you’ll know her skills did not depend on a pretty face alone.

Not, of course, an historic event in itself. But it gives me a chance to recommend her films to those who may not know her.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2022 6:37:40 PM
Gentlemen, gentlemen!

The big events from yesterday April 14, was the unsinkable ship RMS Titanic hits an ice berg & sinks less than 3 hours later! Lately there have been new theories on what happened to contribute to this catastrophe!?

And of course John Wilkes Booth assassinates President Abraham Lincoln an event that greatly effected America! Comments on the tragedy, & its aftermath! anyone??

Checking 4-15 in history we see, the tragic ending for both of these above events!!

1941 200 Luftwaffe Bombers kill over 1000 people in Belfast N. Ireland! Why did they attack the Irish?? Anyone?

1942 King George VI awards the George Cross to all of the people on the Island of Malta! Why? & what is the George Cross? Anyone??

1943 A Allied Bombing mission misses a German Automobile Factory, & hits the Belgium city of Mortsel killing almost 1,000 innocent civilians! How could this miscue of a tragedy happen?? Anyone??

1955 McDonald's Restaurant is founded by Ray Kroc in Des Plaines, Illinois! How many are there today, & in how many countries??

1989 almost 100 soccer fans are killed in Hillsborough Stadium, England! How could this happen at a peaceful sporting event?? Comments??

Any new comments or topics to discuss??
Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2022 7:38:44 PM
MD, you ask two questions: Quote:
1941 200 Luftwaffe Bombers kill over 1000 people in Belfast N. Ireland! Why did they attack the Irish?? Anyone?

1942 King George VI awards the George Cross to all of the people on the Island of Malta! Why? & what is the George Cross? Anyone?


To the first, Northern Ireland and Ireland were then (and remain today) separate entities. The Republic of Ireland (Eire) was neutral throughout the war, but provided good and timely information to Germany concerning shipping out of west coast ports such as Bristol, Cardiff and Liverpool. Northern Ireland was at the time under the English crown by choice. Belfast was one centre of RN activity, and would have been a legitimate target at any time.

The George Cross was an honour created and first awarded in WW2. It takes its name from its creator and patron, George VI, the UK’s king during the war. In most instances, medals in Britain were awarded for acts of bravery or gallantry in action, the rarest and most highly acknowledged of these being the Victoria Cross (inaugurated by Queen Victoria during the Anglo-Russian war in the Crimea). King George wished to create an award recognizing extreme, outstanding bravery in those who were not in the military but who showed extraordinary courage in the face of military action. Only the Victoria Cross is considered more prestigious, and the medal is awarded rarely. In the first 30 years of its existence, only some 140 George Crosses have been awarded.

I believe one of the first recipients of the George Medal was a (female) reader of a Chain Home radar station, who refused to abandon her post while her station was under concerted assault by the Luftwaffe, even when ordered to do so. So in awarding the George Cross to Malta, George VI was recognizing the bravery and stamina of the Maltese against Luftwaffe and Italian bombardment over a length of time. Had Malta not stood fast, the history of the Mediterranean War may have played out very differently.

Cheers,
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/15/2022 8:22:55 PM
The George Cross also appears on the flag of Malta. That was a decision made by the British Crown during the war.



The actual medal is on display in a museum in Valetta, Malta. But the image of the medal on the flag is a bone of contention today.

There are some Maltese who believe it should remain as an inspiration to current generations and as a reminder of a difficult time in Maltese history. Others believe that the cross is a constant reminder of colonialism and suggests that Malta has not thrown off that yoke. There is no objection to the actual medal that was well earned and continues to be on display in their museum.

From the Times of Malta

[Read More]

Cheers,

George

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
4/16/2022 3:40:28 AM
Today in 1917 the French launched their Nivelle Offensive along the Aisne sector of the Western Front. There are few actions in military history which took their name from the commander. In WW1, the Brusilov Offensive comes to mind, and, perhaps, the Ludendorff onslaught in 1918.

Nivelle’s offensive is especially notorious , in so far as it promised so much and delivered commensurate disappointment. Worse than that, it instigated a series of mutinies in the French army that put the entire Allied war effort in jeopardy .

Actually, the French attacks were effective, and inflicted heavy loss on the Germans : but the fragility of French morale and political discontent rendered the outcome very perilous for the Entente .

Editing : Although this is a WW1 battle, I reckon its lessons can be applied to many other features of military history, and, indeed, to life in general. A hubris and nemesis affair, if ever there was one. Here we have a charismatic personality, with a track record of spectacular success, who’s convinced that he has found the right method, and is adept at convincing other people, too. The fact that Nivelle had an English mother made him popular with British commentators, and he was especially persuasive with the British PM, Lloyd George. A smooth talking French general who can speak fluent English....deadly combination ! The problem is that what works really well one day is not guaranteed to work equally well the next, especially if your opponent has been learning lessons and adapting.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/16/2022 10:21:17 AM
Quote:
The George Cross also appears on the flag of Malta. That was a decision made by the British Crown during the war.



The actual medal is on display in a museum in Valetta, Malta. But the image of the medal on the flag is a bone of contention today.

There are some Maltese who believe it should remain as an inspiration to current generations and as a reminder of a difficult time in Maltese history. Others believe that the cross is a constant reminder of colonialism and suggests that Malta has not thrown off that yoke. There is no objection to the actual medal that was well earned and continues to be on display in their museum.

From the Times of Malta

[Read More]

Cheers,

George



Hi George, & Brian,

Thanks for clearing up just what the significance of the George's Cross given to the citizens of Malta for defending their Island Nation against all odds! I have recently read a biography on Erwin Rommel, In it it is revealed that every time he expected aid in ammo, gas, & other critical supplies. He did not receive them! They would mysteriously be shot down, aircraft, or sunk Axis supply ships! In part on a major scale by Malta in Allied hands, right in their path! Also the Allies having the Enigma Machine, therefore breaking the German code, really hurt Afrika Korps trying to take North Africa! Also I always picture the large tanker Ohio limping into the Malta Harbor, barely afloat! Seeing how blasted & war torn all of Malta's buildings were! These defenders of Malta certainly deserved the recognition they recieved, I hope they look at receiving this George's Cross as A bravery reward, & not reflecting British Imperialism!??

More comments on Malta, their over coming all Axis attempts to take their embattled island, & how it effected the Axis attempts to conquer the Mediterranean Sea areas!? Great discussion event!? Comments, & websites on Malta's significance!? Anyone??

Thanks, & Regards,
MD

Also on 4-16 in history check out these events! Comment on any??

73 AD, Masada a Jewish Fortress falls to the Romans, after a long seige! It in photos looks impregnable!? Incredible and horrific ending for the defenders! Anyone have pics, or websites on this event? It's enthralling history!? Comments??

1818 the Rush Bagot treaty establishing the border of Canada, & the US is ratified by the US Senate! Who came out ahead in this situation? Was it fair?? Comments, anyone??

1947 the term Cold War is used to describe the conflict between the Soviet Union, & the West is used! Is it still going on today?? What say you? Anyone??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/16/2022 12:23:10 PM
Quote:
1818 the Rush Bagot treaty establishing the border of Canada, & the US is ratified by the US Senate! Who came out ahead in this situation? Was it fair?? Comments, anyone??


Rather than a treaty I think that "agreement" is a more accurate description. I don't believe that the British actually ratified it as a treaty. The agreement resulted from a series of communications between Rush of the US and Charles Bagot of the Britain. It was not a traditionally negotiated treaty as it was based upon an exchange of notes between the two diplomats.

The War of 1812 had just ended and both nations had been engaged in naval expansion on the Great Lakes. There were still bad feelings between the people on both sides of the lakes. It was Mr. Rush who proposed that an arms reduction on the lakes would further a process of reconciliation, would increase cross border trade, and would ensure that peace would be maintained.

Eventually, the British did agree and a specific number of armed vessels allotted to each nation was described in the agreement. As I recall, the US and Britain were permitted one armed vessel with a single cannon on the lower Great Lakes and two such vessels on the upper lakes. And so it was for the first 20 years of existence of the agreement. The armed vessels that had fought on Lake Erie or Lake Champlain were disarmed and allowed to rot on shore or converted to transports.

The agreement said nothing about land defences and both countries continued to build forts and canals to allow for the movement of troops and armaments. Every time there was a dispute between the US and Britain/Canada after the War of 1812, there was a potential for war. And on the British side, there was a flurry of building of defensive positions with each one.

examples: dispute over the border between Maine and New Brunswick, the Oregon dispute, the 1837/38 rebellions in Upper and Lower Canada, the US civil war, the Fenian Raids 1866-70,

The British took a chance here. BNA was saved during the War of 1812 only because the British were moderately well prepared to defend. Rush-Bagot eliminated one of those preparations leaving the more powerful nation, the US, in position to dominate the Great Lakes should it choose to do so.

Note that the agreement had assumed that any vessel that would be built on a lake would remain on that lake. Neither country could imagine that transit between all of the lakes or from the lakes to the Atlantic ocean would be possible.

By 1837/38, the British felt the need to violate the terms of agreement as it was dealing with rebellion in Upper and Lower Canada and so it armed a few more vessels to allow it to deal with the insurrectionists. The US protested and Britain/Canada reminded the US that there were raids into the British colonies that were organized and began on the US side with Americans raiding the British colonies. That satisfied the Americans until the rebellions were under control and then the US asked Britain to return to the terms of the agreement.

Though satisfied, the US then took a turn to violate the agreement and passed a law that allowed the President to authorize the construction of any vessel that he saw fit. And in 1841, the President saw fit to authorize the construction of an iron side wheeler called the Michigan, with two cannon to sail on Lake Erie. It was also a bigger and heavier vessel than the agreement allowed. The new law did say that the US should bounce it off the British before going ahead but it did not and so the British protested.

The US communication to Britain said that they did not consider the new vessel to be in violation as it was mostly used as a transport.

The British did not push the issue and there were few problems until the US Civil War. Citing the same problems that Britain had described in 1838, the US claimed that it had to do something about Confederate raiders operating out of Canada.
And so the US wrote to Britain in 1864 indicating that it wished to abrogate the treaty. This alarmed Britain and it conveyed that message strongly to the US.

The US was more concerned with the Confederate raiders and so the Rush-Bagot Agreement was terminated.

When the war ended, US Sec. of State William Seward contacted the British and suggestion that the spirit of the agreement should be renewed. Note that this was done without congressional approval but was only an executive decision. I am not sure that that would fly today.

Since then there have been a number of times that the US has called for termination, usually when it wished to build a gunboat to ply the lakes. By 1898, Great Lakes states were confused as to the status of Rush-Bagot and they asked Congress to tell them whether the agreement was still in effect.

So it was proposed that a Joint High Commission be established to deal with concerns related to the agreement. The Canadian representatives were British as Canada was still not able to conduct its own foreign affairs officially. Anyway, the Americans were actually seeking agreement to build more armed vessels and to assure that they could travel through Canadian canal systems like the Welland Canal which is entirely within Canadian territory. (Welland links Erie and Ontario and by passes Niagara Falls) The armed vessels were to be used to train naval reservists based on the Great Lakes.

The commission did not come to an agreement and so the US abandoned its plans and the agreement was still in effect. However, the US still built armed cutters for the Revenue department and these could have served as naval vessels as needed.

Rush-Bagot has often been held aloft as the document that created the "longest undefended border in the world" and both the US and Canadian governments point to the document as representative of the good will between our nations.

At the beginning of WW II Canada was expanding its ship building industry and was building war ships at many ports in the Great Lakes. Initially the US demanded that the ships sail for international waters before being armed but when the US entered the war, it was agreed that both nations should be able to construct naval vessels on the lakes and to arm them before sending them to the open seas.

In 1946 the Permanent Joint Board on Defence which has aligned Canada's defensive posture with that of the US ever since, agreed that the maintenance of naval training vessels on the Great Lakes was acceptable.

After 2002 and 9/11, the US decided to arm its Coast Guard cutters on the Great Lakes. Canada, probably because it had little clout, agreed with this development and justified it by saying that the USCG was using the vessels for police operations like interdicting smuggling operations. Canada reserved the right to arm its own Coast Guard vessels but I cannot recall whether that has happened. It was being considered in 2012.

Now that transit from the ocean into the Great Lakes and from the lakes to the sea is easier because of the St. Lawrence Seaway, naval vessels from both countries may often be seen. In fact, they make stops at each others lake ports and allow visitors to board. All part of the PR business, I suppose.

So does Rush-Bagot mean anything anymore? I suppose it has symbolic value. Both the Canadian and US governments see it as significant because of that. Practically, I am not sure at all. It doesn't seem to be binding but it seems that either country will seek approval should it decide to do something that appears to violated the terms of the agreement. Canada as the much weaker power militarily could do little if the US wished to fill the Great Lakes with warships.

By 1909, Canada and the US had concluded the Boundary Waters Treaty. That treaty plus the participation of the US and Canada in WW I ushered forth a new era in co-operation.

By the '30's the extent of co-operation was furthered by FDR who declared that the US would never stand by idly should a foreign power try to invade Canada.

I think that the Rush-Bagot Agreement does reinforce the spirit of good will that normally exists between our two nations. But that is about the extent of its clout.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/16/2022 3:34:38 PM
Quote:
More comments on Malta, their over coming all Axis attempts to take their embattled island, & how it effected the Axis attempts to conquer the Mediterranean Sea areas!? Great discussion event!? Comments, & websites on Malta's significance!? Anyone??


I think that the citizens of Malta were victims or collateral damage. They endured while greater powers fought. The quantity of bombs dropped on this island was huge. The Maltese were hit on 154 days and nights. According to one Maltese site, 6700 tons of bombs fell upon Malta.

The fight for Malta was won by the RAF pilots and assisted by the RN who brought supplies to the island and planes within range of the island. And much is owed to the merchant marine ships and crew who transported commodities like oil to the besieged island.

If memory serves, a couple of RAF squadrons flew from a USN carrier to Malta as well.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/17/2022 3:17:21 PM
George, Thanks for the takes on Malta, & the British American agreement on the Great Lakes!?

Checking 4-17 in history, how about these events??

1824 Russia abandons all North American claims south of 54, 40', What if Great Britain had offered the Russians more for Alaska than the Americans eventially did??

1492 Columbus will sail the Ocean Blue, for Spain!? Was he good for Native Americans? Comments?

1820 Alexander Cartwright developed base ball? I thought it was Abner Doubleday?? So what's the story??

1861 Virginia becomes the 8th state to secede from the Union! What if they hadn't? Would that have stopped the revolt??

1864 USS Grant bans prisoner exchanges! How does this effect the Civil War? Anyone??

1961 the Bay of Pigs invasion why does it fail?? Comments on this fiasco? Anyone??

1970 Apollo 13 Astronauts finally land! How under impossible odds did they make it back safely! Comments??

Comments please,
MD

BTW on a sad note Mike Bossy, hockey great of the NY Islanders, 4 Stanley Cups, passed away a couple of days ago! A sad day for the NHL! Comments on Mike? Anyone??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/17/2022 9:18:48 PM
Quote:
1824 Russia abandons all North American claims south of 54, 40', What if Great Britain had offered the Russians more for Alaska than the Americans eventially did??


The Crimean War had ended only 11 years before. Relations between Russia and GB were fraught. And Russia would not have wanted a British territory only 80 km across the Bering Strait. They were not inclined to sell Alaska to Great Britain or to Canada which had become a confederation only three months before the sale of Alaska to the US.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/17/2022 9:30:09 PM
Quote:
1820 Alexander Cartwright developed base ball? I thought it was Abner Doubleday?? So what's the story??


Who are these two frauds?

The first recorded baseball game was played in Beachville, Upper Canada in 1838. The ball was made of tightly wound yarn and the bat was cut out of a single hickory branch. That event predates the first baseball game in the states which occurred in 1846.

There were variations of baseball type games played in other parts of the world. British games like rounders came to Canada but there were also a lot of Americans who had come north especially to Upper Canada. There was a ball and bat game played in England that was called base ball.

So a lot of the games played in the US were also played north of the border. And it is likely that variations of the game were played in North America a century before the dates claimed as the starting point of the game.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
4/18/2022 5:38:24 PM
Quote:
George, Thanks for the takes on baseball & Alaska!

Checking 4-17 in history, how about these events? Not commented on yet??

1492 Columbus will sail the Ocean Blue, for Spain!? Was he good for Native Americans? Comments?

1861 Virginia becomes the 8th state to secede from the Union! What if they hadn't? Would that have stopped the revolt??

1864 USS Grant bans prisoner exchanges! How does this effect the Civil War? Anyone??

1961 the Bay of Pigs invasion why does it fail?? Comments on this fiasco? Anyone??

1970 Apollo 13 Astronauts finally land! How under impossible odds did they make it back safely! Comments??

& checking 4-18 the following occurred!?

1942 Jimmy Doolittle bombs Tokyo & other Japanese Cities! What was it's effect on Japan??

1943 US P38's shoot down Yamamoto after breaking the Japanese code! How did the Allies keep it a secret that they had broken the code??.what effect did shooting Yamamoto down have!??

1978 the US Senate votes to turn over the Panama Canal to Panama at the end of 1999, Does this sound like imperialism to you????

Comments please,
MD

BTW on a sad note Mike Bossy, hockey great of the NY Islanders, 4 Stanley Cups, passed away a couple of days ago! A sad day for the NHL! Comments on Mike? Anyone??

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
4/18/2022 9:13:12 PM
Quote:
1978 the US Senate votes to turn over the Panama Canal to Panama at the end of 1999, Does this sound like imperialism to you????


The US has been involved in Panama since 1903 and the separation of Panama from Colombia. Ownership of the Panama Canal was the motivation and concern for this part of North America. The Panama Canal zone was a strip that divided the country of Panama and it was controlled by the US. Panamanians had to pass through check points to get from one side to the other.

And yet the US decided, in 1989, to invade Panama because the US had become disenchanted with Panama's de facto leader, Manuel Noriega.

Somewhere between 500 and 1000 Panamanians died.

That was only ten years after the treaty to transfer control fully to Panama in 1999 was ratified.

And the action was condemned at the UN as a violation of international law. The US claimed self defence as a rationale.

The Organization of American States also condemned the invasion.

Was the turnover of the Panama Canal Zone then the end of an imperialistic endeavour with one final invasion before that event occurred?

Cheers,

George
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