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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2023 8:16:23 AM
Hey yesterday September 29, is also National Coffee Day, & October 1, is International Coffee Day! Score a free or discounted cup at your favorite coffee place!? BTW how do you like your Java?? Anyone?

Checking 9-29 Today in World History!

1906 the US occupies Cuba, if they the US, were so imperialistic, why did they give it back right away to the Cubans?? They removed Cuban President Tomais Estrada Palma who approved the Platt Agreement, & who was Palma? & why was a pro US Cuban President removed? What say you George? Also would you consider Cuba a Banana Republic?? Anyone?

9-30 in history,

1895 the French occupy Madagascar! How, & Why??

1927 Babe Ruth hits 60 homers, last year, yesterday Aaron Judge hit #61, how has drugs played a part in baseball power #s??

1949 Berlin Airlift succeeds in stopping the Berlin blockade! How did they do it?? Anyone?


Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2023 2:03:53 PM
Quote:


1906 the US occupies Cuba, if they the US, were so imperialistic, why did they give it back right away to the Cubans?? They removed Cuban President Tomais Estrada Palma who approved the Platt Agreement, & who was Palma? & why was a pro US Cuban President removed? What say you George? Also would you consider Cuba a Banana Republic?? Anyone?

Regards,
MD


Dave,

I think George’s post answers these questions already.
Cuba was, at best, an American client state until the revolution. The terms of ‘independence’ would have been intolerable to your Founding Fathers if they had been imposed by Great Britain.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2023 2:05:23 PM
Quote:
1906 the US occupies Cuba, if they the US, were so imperialistic, why did they give it back right away to the Cubans?? They removed Cuban President Tomais Estrada Palma who approved the Platt Agreement, & who was Palma? & why was a pro US Cuban President removed? What say you George? Also would you consider Cuba a Banana Republic?? Anyone?


From what I understand, Palma was a leader in the revolutionary army that fought against the Spanish for 10 years. They captured him and he went to New York City but remained a leader of the revolution. He became the President of Cuba after the Spanish-American War. And he had several accomplishments including the construction of a rail line, improved education for Cubans and improved health care.

During the election of 1905 apparently Palma used government funds to support his re-election. The opposition party boycotted the results of the election and Palma's re-election as President. He asked the US to send in troops to help quell this new rebellion against his government. For all the good that he did, Palma is remembered as the man who handed Cuba over to domination by another foreign power, the US.

The US domination of Cuba an example of neo-colonialism. In that it is a more subtle type of colonialism. Economic, political and cultural pressures are used to keep the colony in line. With the signing of the Platt Amendment, US intervention in Cuban affairs was authorized and with Cuban approval.

The US did invest a lot of money in Cuba over the decades. And the US has apparently always had designs on this island. Even in the earliest days of the US republic, there was talk of annexation of Cuba. The new republic had convinced itself that it was destined to dominate the whole continent.

Thomas Jefferson who had once declared that the possession of British North America, "was a mere matter of marching", also mused about the annexation of Cuba.

In 1823, Jefferson said, “I have ever looked on Cuba as the most interesting addition which could ever be made to our system of states.”

In 1859, well before the Spanish-American War, US Congress passed a bill that claimed, “The ultimate acquisition of Cuba may be considered a fixed purpose of the United States--a purpose resulting from political and geographical necessities.”

There were many Americans who opposed the acquisition of territory by force but many who felt that it was necessary to keep European powers from trying to reclaim their colonial territories.

US business concerns invested a lot of money in Cuba primarily to support the sugar industry and large sugar plantations were the result. Small, independently owned mixed farming operations began to disappear. The number of slaves imported to Cuba increased because sugar production increased and demanded more workers. American interests dominated the sugar trade and they held great influence over local politics. There was conflict in Cuba between the white Cubans who were often more wealthy than the black labourers and they tended to support US influence.

When there was political unrest in Cuba, it affected US corporate business, hence the need for the US to maintain stability no matter which Cuban leader was installed.


Is Cuba a "banana republic"? Don't know. I suppose that some elements of banana republicanism are evident in Cuba. Certainly the government is autocratic and there is political unrest.

However, the term was usually applied to Central American countries that depended upon a single crop and the industry surrounding that single crop was dominated by foreigners. I don't think that that applies to Cuba any more. Certainly they still want to sell a lot of sugar but despite the restrictions imposed by the US embargo, Cuba has tried to diversify its economy and has invited foreigners to participate in the Cuban economy albeit under government regulation.

But Cuba is no longer dominated by a foreign power whether it is Spain or the US. Cuba rebelled against that sort of existential threat and is still paying the price as the US is still angry that US owned businesses and properties were nationalized by Castro. And the US still enforces its 1961 embargo of Cuba and enacts legislation to punish other countries who choose to work with and in Cuba.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2023 6:15:27 PM
Quote:
Quote:


1906 the US occupies Cuba, if they the US, were so imperialistic, why did they give it back right away to the Cubans?? They removed Cuban President Tomais Estrada Palma who approved the Platt Agreement, & who was Palma? & why was a pro US Cuban President removed? What say you George? Also would you consider Cuba a Banana Republic?? Anyone?

Regards,
MD


Dave,

I think George’s post answers these questions already.
Cuba was, at best, an American client state until the revolution. The terms of ‘independence’ would have been intolerable to your Founding Fathers if they had been imposed by Great Britain.

Cheers,

Colin





Guys,

I didn't look at it that way?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
9/30/2023 9:21:05 PM
Castro was no liberator.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/1/2023 7:30:31 AM


Moving on to today, October, on the 1st, these events occurred! Comments!?

331 bce, Alexander the Great, & his army defeated the Persians! Why were the Greeks always able to beat Persia!?
What say you??

1553 Mary I is crowned Queen of England, does she deserve to be called Bloody Mary! Anyone??

1946 22 of 24 Nazis convicted of war crimes! Was this just?? Comments??

1949 Communist China is established! They today are making artificial islands!? What do you think of that!? Why??

Moving on!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/1/2023 7:57:25 AM
Quote:
Castro was no liberator.


Pick your poison, I guess. Batista or Castro?

I also think that the US made a strategic error when the President and Congress snubbed Castro after the revolution. He had come to Washington seeking to speak to the government about the political situation in his country and the economic problems that he faced. He was not well received except on the streets by people who were enamoured of him and the fact that he had expelled the corrupt puppet of the US, Batista, from his position of control.

Could it be that if the US would have attempted rapprochement rather than immediate suspicion and rancour that there could have been a friendly state to the south of the US?

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/1/2023 5:52:50 PM
Quote:
Could it be that if the US would have attempted rapprochement rather than immediate suspicion and rancour that there could have been a friendly state to the south of the US?

Cheers,

George


I don't believe that a good relationship was ever possible with Castro and the US. The US government itself was waffling on wether Castro was a communist or not, that led to internal division and conflicting information. The history of US support for Batista was not an event Castro and his people were going to forgive, plus his actions; which many suggested would happen, of kicking out American interests and businesses in the US, especially the high end run of mob money, corruptive practices, which led to more money, the new governments overtaking of land allowing squatters to take over, again, more money were all issues the US was taking to heart.

Much of the information used to make it appear that Castro was an ok guy came from two reporters, one of which was a New York Times reporter who over reported the amount of supporters Castro had in the hills and expressed sympathy to the rebel cause against the hated Bautista. Even though Castro was not part of the first official government the first month (I believe that is the time frame) in Cuba after Bautista bailed, his influence was there and showed early. The bad relations only worsened when Castro came out full force as a Socialist/Communist and began receiving life saving support from Soviet Russia.

IMO, relations with the WWII/Korean/Anti-communist war crowd in D.C. with a Cuban "rebel" highly suspected of being a communist never had a chance at good relations.

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/2/2023 9:03:33 AM
Hey MHO,

Some history from today 10-2's events! Comments??

1780 John Andre is executed as A spy! Did he take the fall for Benedict Arnold! They tried to take West Point!

1869 Mahatma Gandhi, is born! Do you see any parallels with his life, & Martin Luther King Jr.'s? Anyone?

1935 Italy invades Ethiopia! Why?? What say you??

1836 Charles Darwin returns to England, stating we evolved from.ape like humanoids! Do you buy this? Comments?

Regards,
MD

Any other events we forgot??

BTW, Dan, I am more inclined to agree with you on Castro, & US relations!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/2/2023 11:55:39 AM
Quote:
1780 John Andre is executed as A spy! Did he take the fall for Benedict Arnold! They tried to take West Point!


They, meaning the British, were supposed to try to take installations like West Point or any of the other installations that the insurrectionists had occupied or built. West Point was not a military academy at the time of the revolution. George Washington realized that the height of land upon which a fort would be built was strategically important as it overlooked the Hudson River. So he had a Polish engineer design a fortification. And it was a strong one. British operations on the Hudson would have been most difficult because of the West Point garrison and fortifications.

So it was a legitimate target. It did not carry the reputation that it does today. It was an important fort to be taken in war time.

Even after the revolution top US politicians including Washington and Jefferson sparred over the need for a training academy for military officers. Jefferson was opposed initially because he was not enamoured of the European custom of training professional soldiers and the maintenance of a standing army. He changed his mind when he became President in the early 1800's.

John André was a British army officer. He had been in communication with the disaffected Benedict Arnold and finally met him at a house on the Hudson River. Arnold had been appointed to command at West Point in 1780. He is often described as Washington's best fighting General. But he did not feel appreciated and perhaps his wife, the lovely Peggy Shippen who was a staunch member of a Loyalist family, had convinced him of the errors of his ways. Peggy had acted initially as a go-between Arnold and Major John André.

André's downfall was that he was well known and was recognized by some rebel militia men and stopped as he made his way back to British HQ. He was not wearing his uniform and when they searched him, they found incriminating notes in his boot. These notes implicated Benedict Arnold as one of them was signed by Arnold and gave André safe passage. There were also notes describing the fortification at West Point to aid the British in its capture.

Out of uniform. Carrying sensitive documents. He was arrested as a spy. Despite the fact that Washington admired and liked Major André, he felt compelled to set an example and to indicate to the British that he would treat spies the same way that Nathan Hale had been treated. Spies, even military officers, do not receive a court martial. They are hung. And so it was.

Quote:
He was more unfortunate than criminal, an accomplished man and a gallant officer.
. George Washington after the execution of André

Cheers,

George





Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/2/2023 7:54:11 PM
Quote:
1780 John Andre is executed as A spy! Did he take the fall for Benedict Arnold! They tried to take West Point!


John André was a British army officer. He had been in communication with the disaffected Benedict Arnold and finally met him at a house on the Hudson River. Arnold had been appointed to command at West Point in 1780. He is often described as Washington's best fighting General. But he did not feel appreciated and perhaps his wife, the lovely Peggy Shippen who was a staunch member of a Loyalist family, had convinced him of the errors of his ways. Peggy had acted initially as a go-between Arnold and Major John André.

Out of uniform. Carrying sensitive documents. He was arrested as a spy. Despite the fact that Washington admired and liked Major André, he felt compelled to set an example and to indicate to the British that he would treat spies the same way that Nathan Hale had been treated. Spies, even military officers, do not receive a court martial. They are hung. And so it was.

Quote:
He was more unfortunate than criminal, an accomplished man and a gallant officer.
. George Washington after the execution of André

Cheers,

George


George,

Peggy Shippen is certainly portrayed as a Strong Loyalist person, & is portrayed as such in numerous books on the subject, written about her. No doubt she influenced her husband, Benedict Arnold, into betrayal of the Continental Army! Peggy is even made out to be a Loyalist Spy, herself!!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 7:51:15 AM


Today in world history, a few events worth noting, On 10-3,

1862 the Union wins the battle of Corinth, MS.! Why did the Union win so much in the west!??

1952 the British have the bomb! How do they rate as A Nuclear power? Could they give the bomb to say Canada, or Australia?

Germany is reunited in 1990? What took so long?? Anyone?

Also from yesterday, 10-2,

1869 Mahatma Gandhi, is born! Do you see any parallels with his life, & Martin Luther King Jr.'s? Anyone?

& tomorrow 10-4,

1853, the Crimean War begins! Who won! & can anyone post the Charge of the Light Brigade!? Love that poem! ?

Any new posts?? Anyone?
Thanks,
MD

Also from 10-2, A couple more events, not discussed yet?

1935 Italy invades Ethiopia! Why? Just to show the Germans they also could be aggressors? Was Mussolini behind it? What say you??

& Don't forget to seize the day!!

1836 Charles Darwin returns to England, stating we evolved from.ape like humanoids! Do you buy this? Comments?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 9:03:47 AM
Quote:
1952 the British have the bomb! How do they rate as A Nuclear power? Could they give the bomb to say Canada, or Australia?


The British actually provided key science to the US when the bomb was being developed. They were researching at home and at a lab in Montreal with Canadian scientists involved as well. So the question is why did the British take until 1952 to develop the weapon. Despite the important efforts by British and Canadian scientists, the US eventually decided to shut other countries out of the process. The US passed a law in 1946 that prohibited the sharing of nuclear information. As the new leader of the western democracies the US was determined to control the secrets of the weapon.

As well, Britain's economy was not in great shape post war and so the post war governments had to decide whether it was important to develop this weapon. The Clement Atlee government finally determined that it was absolutely necessary to develop the nuclear deterrent. To do so would also anger the US government which wanted a monopoly on the possession of this weapon.

[Read More]


Canada is already a nuclear power but not in the military sense, of course. Canada was involved in research that led to the development of the A-bomb in WW2, as the country was a partner in the Manhattan Project.

When the US project was well underway, the British influence waned as the US no longer wished to share what it had learned.

However, this country chose to use its knowledge for peaceful purposes. Check that, we do provide uranium to allies who choose to use the product for military purposes. We have sold CANDU's to countries like India and Pakistan with a condition that they would not use the technology to enrich uranium and make a bomb. That didn't work out too well.

So Canada designs and makes nuclear reactors and has sold this technology around the world. The CANDU reactor is considered to be one of the safer designs of nuclear reactor. So let us suppose that Canada could make an atomic bomb which would not be that difficult. The CANDU uses heavy water as a coolant and non-enriched uranium. Canadians physicists know how to enrich uranium and we have a lot of it.

Delivery of the weapon to an enemy would be problematic but certain types of nuclear weapons could be delivered by plane or missile.

So far we have decided not to join directly in the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 9:10:58 AM
Quote:
1836 Charles Darwin returns to England, stating we evolved from.ape like humanoids! Do you buy this? Comments?


There doesn't seem to be much doubt about the evolutionary process. And humans share over 98% of their DNA with chimpanzees and bonobos. It seems that the three of us may have descended from the same ancestor.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George

Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 11:50:14 AM
Quote:


1869 Mahatma Gandhi, is born! Do you see any parallels with his life, & Martin Luther King Jr.'s? Anyone?



Did you know Gandhi was a stretcher bearer for the British Army during the Boer War? Lots of Indians volunteered for service, especially during the early 'set piece' part of the war. I've not quite read enough about him to understand when he turned from willing participant of the imperial regime to independence agitator.

Quote:


BTW, Dan, I am more inclined to agree with you on Castro, & US relations!



Colour me surprised!

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 11:59:16 AM
Quote:


1952 the British have the bomb! How do they rate as A Nuclear power? Could they give the bomb to say Canada, or Australia?



As George says, Canada and others have the scientific know-how to create nuclear weapons. Fortunately, the further proliferation of nuclear weapons is limited to Iran and North Korea. I don't expect anyone else to join the club. I would think Canada, New Zealand, Germany and Australia could become nuclear powers fairly quickly, if they needed to.

You may not be aware, but the Royal Navy has four nuclear-armed Vanguard-class submarines (the weapons system is known as 'Trident') which are on hand to deliver the UK's nuclear weapons deterrent. As part of the command process, each submarine commander is issued hand-written instructions (known as 'letters of last resort') from the current Prime Minister on what to do if they believe the UK is under nuclear attack and contact with the government and naval authorities is lost. These notes are not released into the public domain, but instructions are believed to include:

- To retaliate against the perceived aggressor;
- To not retaliate and await further instructions;
- To use their own judgement;
- To surrender to the command of an allied power (most likely to only mean the US, Canada, New Zealand or Australia).

So in that sense, it is plausible that the UK could, as a last resort, give nuclear weapons to a non-nuclear power.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 3:08:01 PM
Quote:
Quote:


1869 Mahatma Gandhi, is born! Do you see any parallels with his life, & Martin Luther King Jr.'s? Anyone?



Did you know Gandhi was a stretcher bearer for the British Army during the Boer War? Lots of Indians volunteered for service, especially during the early 'set piece' part of the war. I've not quite read enough about him to understand when he turned from willing participant of the imperial regime to independence agitator.

Quote:


BTW, Dan, I am more inclined to agree with you on Castro, & US relations!



Colour me surprised!
Cheers,

Colin


Thanks Colin, not much hope in hindsight or at that time for US/Cuba relations.

Supposedly Gandhi is in the middle row, 5th from the left while serving as a stretcher bearer (Sgt, Major!?) during the 2nd Boer War (I could only link the pic, not post an image of).

Dan

[Read More]
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 3:28:57 PM
Gandhi was no champion of the downtrodden black people of South Africa : he was keen on segregation along racial lines and was adamant that Indian people were more civilised and intelligent than the blacks, and was, in effect, a proponent of apartheid.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 7:58:19 PM
Apparently, he raised an ambulance corps to support British forces.




Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 9:43:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1836 Charles Darwin returns to England, stating we evolved from.ape like humanoids! Do you buy this? Comments?


There doesn't seem to be much doubt about the evolutionary process. And humans share over 98% of their DNA with chimpanzees and bonobos. It seems that the three of us may have descended from the same ancestor.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George




Also a lot of us do like bananas!? ☺
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/3/2023 10:42:44 PM
Quote:
1935 Italy invades Ethiopia! Why? Just to show the Germans they also could be aggressors? Was Mussolini behind it? What say you??

I would argue this has nothing to do with Germany, which at the time was far from making aggressive moves of any but the smallest sort (think Rhineland and the like).

And yes, Mussolini and his fascisti were very much the drivers behind Italy’s expansionist policies. Whatever the specific reasons for the assault on Ethiopia, Italy was interested in setting itself up as a power in the Mediterranean – a recreation of the core of the Roman Empire. In doing so, it was placing itself in direct conflict with Great Britain and, to a lesser extent – France. Britain controlled Gibraltar and Egypt and the Suez Canal, and maintained a large RN fleet at Malta. Italy had control over Libya, and had plans for further territory. Ethiopia, on the Horn of Africa, was a good counter-point to Aden and a possible threat to British control of Suez shipping. And, with tacit support from the League of Nations, Italian troops would snub their noses to British forces as they transited the Suez to assault Haile Selassie’s kingdom.

Also pre-war, keep in mind Italian support of Spanish Loyalists. Italy did not support Franco on a whim: an Italian ally in Spain would further weaken Britain’s claims in the Med.

With declarations of war between Italy and Britain, campaigns developed in North Africa, including attacks on Malta, and in East Africa, where British troops routed the Italians throughout the Horn. But Italy also had plans to take Albania and Greece. Ultimately, Italy had the idea but not the capability, and Germany would bail them out by taking Yugoslavia, Albania and Greece, and extending their control to Crete and many of the islands of the Ionian Sea.

This is, I’m afraid, a quick shot at explaining a very complex situation. I believe we tend to forget Italy’s part in the military events of Europe’s 20th century. I’m open to any comments or more serious comments on Italian plans and efforts, or anything that clarifies or disproves what I offer here.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2023 8:45:58 AM
Hi Brian,

Let us not forget that as early as 1933 Germany was beginning to re-arm, which was against the terms of the Treaty of Versailles! & early 1938 they were taking Danzig, & had designs on Austria's Sudetenland! But you are correct in that Italy's intrusions into N. Africa began before any large Nazi agression! Even the fake peaceful intentions, both Italy & Germany seemed to portray when signing with the British in the 1938 Munich Agreement! Again you are correct sir, in stating that this is becoming a very complex situation!

Good post!
Regards,
MD

BTW, perhaps someone could post a pre WWII timeline showing the build ups of Italian, & Germany's militaries leading to prominent agressions!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2023 10:19:30 AM
Was Mussolini the father of fascism? I believe that he coined the term shortly after WW1. He had served in the Italian army and like many veterans in other countries, he came home expecting the social order to improve. He began making speeches and called for dictatorial leadership to whip the country into shape and to provide for all of the people. This was in 1919.

Hitler was greatly enamoured of Mussolini and noted that he had great success in establishing his own little army of thugs who would beat up socialists when they gathered. By 1921, Mussolini had established the National Fascist Party. By 1922 Mussolini had been appointed Prime Minister of Italy. He had pressured King Emmanuel who caved in to Mussolini's demands as he saw the violence and unrest on the streets of Italy increase.

I think that Mussolini and Hitler fed off of one another. For example, when Mussolini became PM and then Il Duce shortly after, he had not enacted any anti-semitic laws. Italians were not generally anti-semitic and Mussolini knew that he had served with soldiers who were Jews and that there were Jews who had marched with him when his movement began. But he also became influenced by his friend Hitler who had copied many of Mussolini's tactics. Mussolini felt compelled to enact legislation that prohibited Jews from the practice of some professions.

By the time that Germany had to come to Italy's aid and send troops to Italy, Mussolini stood by as the Germans began to transport Italian Jews to concentration camps. It seems that the student had become the master.

Hitler admired Mussolini's political ideology and his penchant for the use of violence to further his gains. Certainly he wasn't happy that the Italian military proved to be less competent than he would have liked but he did come to Mussolini's aid. In 1943 he even sent troops to rescue Mussolini. Italy still had a king and when the allies bombed Rome again in July of 1943, King Emmanuel told Mussolini that he was finished. He was imprisoned by the King and when Hitler heard of this development he decided to rescue his friend and in a daring raid led by Otto Skorzeny and SS commandoes and paratroopers. A bold move and generous when I think about it. The lives of crack troops were risked to find and spirit Mussolini away from his mountain top prison.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2023 3:27:27 PM
Hi George,

Speaking of Hitler, & Mussolini, taking simular destructive militant paths! ( For one thing, just what's the difference between Nazis, & Fascists, anyway??) & then why did Mussolini meet such a radical tragic fate at the hands of his own people. Yet Hitler was never hated quite like that by the German people! ( abet he was to face assassination attempts by some of the military!?) But still the German citizens them selves still stuck with him? Why?

Why the difference in the endings of these 2 terrifing dictators? Anyone??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2023 4:33:44 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

Speaking of Hitler, & Mussolini, taking simular destructive militant paths! ( For one thing, just what's the difference between Nazis, & Fascists, anyway??) & then why did Mussolini meet such a radical tragic fate at the hands of his own people. Yet Hitler was never hated quite like that by the German people! ( abet he was to face assassination attempts by some of the military!?) But still the German citizens them selves still stuck with him? Why?

Why the difference in the endings of these 2 terrifing dictators? Anyone??

Regards,
MD


There were many attempts of assassination against Hitler before and during the war. That the majority of Germans favored Hitler or tolerated him is the historical enigma of that German era but there were those who tried to remove him.

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2023 5:37:56 PM
Quote:


Why the difference in the endings of these 2 terrifing dictators? Anyone??

Regards,
MD


Dave,

If the accounts I’ve read are correct, Hitler decided to commit suicide shortly after seeing footage of Mussolini’s corpse hanging upside down from the roof of a petrol station in Milan.

Hitler took his own life on 30 April 1945, while Mussolini had been killed just a couple of days earlier.

The prospect of such an undignified end was so unbearable to Hitler that he chose to end his existence while he could still control the circumstances of his death. Undoubtedly, he’d already determined to kill himself anyway, but the image of his former inspiration being so displayed in death was enough to give impetus to his resolve.

The fact that the Soviet soldiers were approaching his bunker obviously had something to do with it, too !

This is my supposition. Imagination and interpretation on my part.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2023 8:34:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:


Why the difference in the endings of these 2 terrifing dictators? Anyone??

Regards,
MD


Dave,

If the accounts I’ve read are correct, Hitler decided to commit suicide shortly after seeing footage of Mussolini’s corpse hanging upside down from the roof of a petrol station in Milan.

Hitler took his own life on 30 April 1945, while Mussolini had been killed just a couple of days earlier.

The prospect of such an undignified end was so unbearable to Hitler that he chose to end his existence while he could still control the circumstances of his death. Undoubtedly, he’d already determined to kill himself anyway, but the image of his former inspiration being so displayed in death was enough to give impetus to his resolve.

The fact that the Soviet soldiers were approaching his bunker obviously had something to do with it, too !

This is my supposition. Imagination and interpretation on my part.

Regards, Phil


Phil, I agree with everything you have stated.

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/4/2023 8:58:19 PM
Quote:
Speaking of Hitler, & Mussolini, taking simular destructive militant paths! ( For one thing, just what's the difference between Nazis, & Fascists, anyway??)


Naziism is a form of fascism. Both fascism and Naziism share similarities. The Nazis weren't socialists which we often read. The name of the party as the National Socialist German Workers' Party confuses many. In fact by the mid-30's the Nazi party had imprisoned thousands of socialists for "socialist activity". They murdered socialists and communists.

The one big difference between Italian fascism and Nazi fascism was that the Nazis accepted Aryan racial purity as a core tenet of their ideology and so the elimination of unacceptable racial groups was necessary. Not so the Italians who actually rejected anti-semitism and racism prior to 1934. After that Mussolini tried to curry favour with Hitler and adopted anti-semitic laws.

Italian fascism emphasized the importance of the state and the ruler who sought to maintain or find again the greatness of the state. The Nazis subscribed to that too but I think that the greatness of the Aryan race drove the desire to eliminate inferior races and to subjugate other nation states to subjugate their inferior population. Mussolini had visions of re-establishing the greatness of the Roman Empire.


Fascism is hard to defined but I think that it features:

authoritarian rule
civil liberties ignored
ultra nationalism
anti-democracy
co-option of corporate entities into operating within the rules laid out by the state. The government still controls the economy but corporate entities are still permitted to succeed.

Cheers,

George





Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 12:44:38 AM
The origin of the word “ fascist” offers an insight into the nature of its characteristics.

The symbol of authority used by the lictors in Ancient Rome, twelve sticks bundled together with an axe head projecting from the bundle. The word “ fasces” was used.

The idea that the bundled sticks create a very strong unit that is hard to break appealed to those who sought to wield authority through individual units that were bound to a common authority, symbolised by the axe head.

This goes right back into the depths of Antiquity, to the twelve Etruscan tribes who gained cultural inspiration from the Greeks.


I’m out of my depth here, knowing diddly squat, but find it interesting and worth mentioning.

Regards, Phil

----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 4:41:22 AM
There are often comments about the brutality of Mussolini´s death. However, being hanged in the public square by the crowd is the traditional punishment meted out to dictators in the Italian city-states going back to long before the Renaissance. The Soviets wanted Hitler alive, to drag him through the streets of Moscow. just as the Tsars would have done.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 8:42:51 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


Why the difference in the endings of these 2 terrifing dictators? Anyone??

Regards,
MD


Dave,

If the accounts I’ve read are correct, Hitler decided to commit suicide shortly after seeing footage of Mussolini’s corpse hanging upside down from the roof of a petrol station in Milan.

Hitler took his own life on 30 April 1945, while Mussolini had been killed just a couple of days earlier.

The prospect of such an undignified end was so unbearable to Hitler that he chose to end his existence while he could still control the circumstances of his death. Undoubtedly, he’d already determined to kill himself anyway, but the image of his former inspiration being so displayed in death was enough to give impetus to his resolve.

The fact that the Soviet soldiers were approaching his bunker obviously had something to do with it, too !

This is my supposition. Imagination and interpretation on my part.

Regards, Phil


Phil, I agree with everything you have stated.

Dan



Phil, & Dan,

I agree with everything you both have been saying! ☺

MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 8:46:44 AM
MHO,

10-6, tomorrow, in history, A few events are listed below! Any others, for 10-5, maybe?? Anyone??

105 bce the Romans are defeated by Germanic Tribes!! Prior to this, the Romans were almost unbeatable!? What happened? How did these so called barbarians win!? Anyone??

1892 Alfred Lord Tennyson great English Poet passes away! You recall "the charge of the light Brigade"! A fav. of mine!? Any others, or facts about Tennyson to post? Comments!?

1976 Chairman Mao dies! What was his influence on Red China! Anyone??

1981 Egyptian President Anwar Sedat is assassinated!? How did this effect the situation in the Middle East!? Why would Muslims kill him?? Did Isreal react in anyway?? What say you?? Is the middle east still a powder keg?? Comments?

1914 Thor Heyerdahl is born he believed the Pacific Islands were colonized from South America, using a raft called the Kon Tiki, he tried to prove it? Was he right or wrong!? What say you? Any good websites on it? Or Comments!?

Regards,
MD

BTW 8 days ago Hurricane Ian hit Florida, & then other areas of the SE United States, for some it will take months, even yrs to repair damages, they are again predicting record major storms, why? What say you??

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 2:15:20 PM
Oct. 5, is the anniversary of the American victory at Moraviantown during the War of 1812. (Oct. 5, 1813). Led by William Henry Harrison, British and First Nations forces were pursued from their position in SW Upper Canada near the Detroit River along the Thames River. And with this victory the British had lost control of SW Upper Canada and the old Northwest of the US.

Also called the Battle of the Thames, the victory was made possible by the destruction of the British squadron on Lake Erie. On Sept. 10, 1813, the ill prepared British squadron met a US squadron just off Put-in-Bay. It was a decisive victory for the US.

The British under General Proctor determined that they had insufficient numbers and supplies to meet the Americans in combat. Fort Detroit was abandoned and quickly occupied by the Americans who renamed it Fort Shelby after the governor of Kentucky. Mounted Kentuckians were an important part of General William Henry Harrison's force.

The British burned Fort Amherstburg on the Canadian side and the Americans occupied what was left of it.

Marching and using large bateaux on the River Thames, the British made their way to the east. The bateaux could not proceed much past a Christian settlement near Moraviantown and the great warrior chief Tecumseh convinced General Proctor to stop and make a stand. Tecumseh was disgusted with Proctor and did not really want to retreat at all. His people were in the Ohio Valley area and this meant that he was moving away from them.

Harrison had about 3700 men with him. The number of British and First Nations numbered 1300 with FN outnumbering British regulars.

The British lined up and the Kentuckians charged on horseback. After one volley, the dispirited British line broke. Many were captured and many retreated along with their General Proctor and his wagon full of of personal effects. Tecumseh and the First Nations warriors continued to fight in the bush country on the flank of the main battle field. And it was in this area that Tecumseh was killed though his body was never recovered.

The significance of this battle is that the British were forced to abandon their original defensive plan though they had speculated that they would probably not have enough men to hold the SW and the old NW of the US and would then have to move toward Burlington Heights on the far west end of Lake Ontario.

Of greater significance I think was that the First Nations Confederation cobbled together by Tecumseh was no more. With the leader dead, the various tribes in the Ohio Valley made individual treaties with the US. Their dream of a homeland for the indigenous people was dead.

There was never a major invasion mounted from this area by the Americans. There were a couple of raids in which US troops travelled well into Upper Canada to destroy mills and military installations but always with the plan to head back to the west. That has always baffled me. Why did the US not continue to pursue their advantage? Instead they chose to remount invasions of the Niagara Peninsula.

Search for the little red "X" to see where this battle was fought.




Short video

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 5:26:14 PM
Thanks George,

Great post & videos on the Battle of Moriaviantown, & it was as you point out a significant victory in several ways! nice to see you post a American victory in the War of 1812! We did win some battles in that war, after all!? ☺

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 5:26:51 PM
BTW

With regards to the Battle of Britain, WWII, who was Baron, Sir Hugh Dowding!? Just what significance if any, did he have in helping the RAF turn back the Luftwaffe!?

What say you? Anyone?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 6:55:28 PM
Quote:
Thanks George,

Great post & videos on the Battle of Moriaviantown, & it was as you point out a significant victory in several ways! nice to see you post a American victory in the War of 1812! We did win some battles in that war, after all!? ☺

Regards,
MD


It's all part of the history of the conflict. Anyway, we know that winning a battle isn't the same as winning the war.

George


Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/5/2023 8:57:37 PM
Quote:
With regards to the Battle of Britain, WWII, who was Baron, Sir Hugh Dowding!? Just what significance if any, did he have in helping the RAF turn back the Luftwaffe!?

What say you? Anyone?

Asking “… just what significance if any, did he have …” is equivalent to asking whether Spruance or Nimitz were at all significant in the PTO. Though he was (IMHO) badly treated for years, he was instrumental in the development and execution of Fighter Command. He held commanding roles in design and development of RAF fighter a/c, he worked with the boffins in creating the Chain Home radar defense system, which became vital during the Bof B. He was instrumental , I believe, in creating the area coverage which determined the spread of RAF Fighter Command defenses, He also argued against WSC’s decision to send more RAF squadrons in aid of France, showing how that might fatally weaken RAF Fighter Command as a tool to protect Britain once France fell. Some say that, in defying Churchill on that isissue, he both saved England and doomed his own career.

Up front, Hugh Dowding was recognized as an eccentric, introspective character. His nickname was “Stuffy”. He carried the weight of command so fully that some argue he talked with the ghosts of deal pilots durin his time off-base. Assess that as you will.

Even before the war, he had reached about the highest rank possible in the RAF (Air Chief Marshal). He was not a popular officer, either with fellow officers or with the politicians of the Ministry of Defense, and most senior officials and officers would have been happy to shuffle him off into the sunset. But he was too knowledgable, too broadly experienced and too skillful to be retired. He was told he was not really wanted, but that he would take control of Fighter Command, in effect on a temporary basis.

Under RAF policy of 1940, Britain was divided into four zones, each protected by a Fighter Command Group. Group 10 was responsible for the south-west, Group 11 for the south-east, Group 12 for central Britain and Group 13,for the North (on a line running from just north of Liverpool to just north of Hull.
[Read More]

The brunt of the Luftwaffe assault was against Group 11’s territory, which was under the control of Keith Park, who agreed fully with Dowding’s division of defenses. Group 13’s area was also assaulted. (A comment on that: Goering was either misled or refused to accept the strength of RAF Fighter Command. When he directed an assault against norther British ports from Norway, he was not expecting the RAF to have forces in the area.) Group 12 was, to a large extent, a backup for Group 11. This did not sit well with Trafford Leigh-Mallory, Head of Group 12, or with one Douglas Bader, a junior officer of great appeal since he returned to flying combat since losing both his leg in a flying accident. Bader and Leigh-Mallory argued that there were alternatives to the current procedure using Group control. Bader and Leigh-Mallory developed a “big wing” concept as an alternative to the rapid response techniques in play.

As the BofB continued, the drain on Group 11 pilots grew. Group 12 and Leigh-Mallory, though largely ineffective in stopping Luftwaffe attacks prior to bombing, were having some success against Luftwaffe bomber formations.
I believe it was Douglas Bader’s adjutant, who was also n MP, who brought the issue to the attention of WSC and the War Cabinet. This was in October 1940, about a month after the B of B was over. WSC thanked Dowding for his service while removing him from effective service. This is an ugly story behind a magnificent battle led by an honourable officer.

I’ll admit I’m a bit biased. I think Dowding and Park (who both have statues standing in London) have been treated shabbily by history. I believe Douglas Bader was way out of line in his criticism, and that his comments arose from his belief (supported by his reputation) that he was more than a mere junior officer.

Lots more that can be said about the B of B and the way “Stuffy” Dowding was treated. I think the story deserves more coverage.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/6/2023 8:18:58 AM


10-6, today in history, A few events not commented on yet, are listed below!

105 bce the Romans are defeated by Germanic Tribes!! Prior to this, the Romans were almost unbeatable!? What happened? How did these so called barbarians win!? Anyone??

1892 Alfred Lord Tennyson great English Poet passes away! You recall "the charge of the light Brigade"! A fav. of mine!? Any others, or facts about Tennyson to post? Comments!?

1976 Chairman Mao dies! What was his influence on Red China! Anyone??

1981 Egyptian President Anwar Sedat is assassinated!? How did this effect the situation in the Middle East!? Why would Muslims kill him?? Did Isreal react in anyway?? What say you?? Is the middle east still a powder keg?? Comments?

1914 Thor Heyerdahl is born he believed the Pacific Islands were colonized from South America, using a raft called the Kon Tiki, he tried to prove it? Was he right or wrong!? What say you? Any good websites on it? Or Comments!?

Regards,
MD

BTW George, your last post, spoken like a true decendent of Red coats or Loyalists!? ☺

& Thanks Brian, on the very concise informative post on the Baron Dowding, I didn't know to much about him, & his major roll in the B of B!!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/6/2023 7:54:10 PM
Guys,

Why are there round fortresses across Canada, mostly out east, built in the 1800's, or before? They almost look like silos with rifle or canon portholes, Londonderry, Halifax, & other prominent towns in Canada have them? The Carleton Martello Tower, Over looking St. Johns, Canada, is another example? Were they Influenced by warfare or threats from the south of them!?? Why such un-usual round shapes? They almost appear to be like huge round blockhouses? Were they very effective? Can anyone enlighten us on this mystery??

What was there purpose? Anyone?
MD

Any pics or websites welcome??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/6/2023 10:21:06 PM
Quote:
Guys,

Why are there round fortresses across Canada, mostly out east, built in the 1800's, or before? They almost look like silos with rifle or canon portholes, Londonderry, Halifax, & other prominent towns in Canada have them? The Carleton Martello Tower, Over looking St. Johns, Canada, is another example? Were they Influenced by warfare or threats from the south of them!?? Why such un-usual round shapes? They almost appear to be like huge round blockhouses? Were they very effective? Can anyone enlighten us on this mystery??

What was there purpose? Anyone?
MD

Any pics or websites welcome??


MD, I think that you are speaking of all of the Martello towers. These mini-forts were built in many parts of the British Empire. As you have noted there are many of them to be found across Canada.

This is the Murney Tower (an example of a Martello) that may be found in Kingston, about one hour from my home.



The Murney Tower was built in 1846 in response to the tension between Britain and the US over the Oregon Territory. There was concern that war could break out as President James Polk was blustering about seizing all of the Oregon territory with no thought of a compromise to set a border at the 49th parallel. So yes, some of these Martellos were built to provide protection for troops from invaders from the south. There were three more Martello towers built in the Kingston area alone.

Below is a website that describes the Murney Martello and it shows the interior of this tower. I have toured the Murney and it is tight but a group of soldiers has a 360 degree view from the different viewing ports. The article does indicate that the original Martello towers that may be seen in other parts of the Empire did not have a roof. The top level was a gun platform. But a building without a roof doesn't make sense in the type of climate found in Canada.

[Read More]

By 1860 these towers were of little use and many fell into disrepair. The Murney Tower was a reclamation project itself.

I had to investigate to find out why these gun towers are all called Martello and it seems that the Corsicans erected imposing towers on their coastline and they were equipped with warning bells. The hammer that was used to strike the bell was called a "martello". I presume that the British thought that the Corsican towers were a good idea.

Corsican ruin of a Martello




The tower below sits on the Plains of Abraham at Québec City. This is the site of the famous battle of 1759 in which James Wolfe defeated Montcalm and defeated the French in North America. The British built this Martello in 1808.



Cheers,

George


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