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Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/14/2023 5:09:14 PM
Trevor,

Thanks : that’s brilliant !

So the father was thoroughly vile ?

If memory from my A level history books serves me, he would storm around the streets with a big wooden stick, beating passers by and shouting “ Why don’t you love me, you scum ? !!”

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/14/2023 6:11:02 PM
Quote:
Trevor,

Thanks : that’s brilliant !

So the father was thoroughly vile ?

If memory from my A level history books serves me, he would storm around the streets with a big wooden stick, beating passers by and shouting “ Why don’t you love me, you scum ? !!”

Regards, Phil


Oh yes, when it was known that he was out Berliners would scatter and hide. Any one unfortunate not to be quick enough got a thrashing.

I have noticed a similarity between Frederick and Alexander; the brutal, philistine father and scheming mother who hated each other and the sensitive, artistic, philosophic son developing a life-long devotion to friends.

And both fulfilled a mission inherited from their fathers. Alexander the liberation of the Greek cities from Persia and Frederick the preservation of Prussia from Hapsburg, Swedish and French ambitions.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/14/2023 10:13:43 PM

Here is 10-16's just some of the events for tomorrow's history!??

1793 today in history Marie Antoinette was guillotined! One time a person who was about to be killed in this manner agree to blink his eyes after the blade fell, it is said the guy blinked 30 times!! It happened in 1905? What say you? Is that morbid or what?? Also why would lady Marie face such a thing?? Anyone?

1758 Noah Webster, the dictionary guy was born! Is his the 1st, & most popular dictionary?? Comments?

1813 Napoleon wins the battle of Liepzig! What was his strategy? Why is he considered a military genius? Anyone?

1846 Mr Green discovers ether as an anesthetic! Why wasn't it used more often in the Civil War!?? What say you??

1859, today, John Brown's raid & capture of the Federal Arsenal at Harper's Ferry! How could he capture it with such a small force? Was Brown a man to be admired or a terrorist!? Anyone?

1946, 10 of 12 Nazi leaders at the Nurnberg Trials were executed! Any other noted Nazis escape being convicted!?? Comments? What proof is there that many made it to Argentina!? What say you??

1964, Communist China now has the A Bomb! Are them, or the Russians the biggest threat to use it?? Scary!?

1968 3 African Americans at the Olympics ceremony use the black power salute!? Were they justified in doing it? Anyone??

BTW I'm using Encyclopedia Britannica.

Carry on,
Regards,
MD

Also continue with any current topics!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/15/2023 1:39:08 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Trevor,

Thanks : that’s brilliant !

So the father was thoroughly vile ?

If memory from my A level history books serves me, he would storm around the streets with a big wooden stick, beating passers by and shouting “ Why don’t you love me, you scum ? !!”

Regards, Phil


Oh yes, when it was known that he was out Berliners would scatter and hide. Any one unfortunate not to be quick enough got a thrashing.

I have noticed a similarity between Frederick and Alexander; the brutal, philistine father and scheming mother who hated each other and the sensitive, artistic, philosophic son developing a life-long devotion to friends.

And both fulfilled a mission inherited from their fathers. Alexander the liberation of the Greek cities from Persia and Frederick the preservation of Prussia from Hapsburg, Swedish and French ambitions.

Trevor


What an interesting thought, Trevor : Alexander and Frederick, both “ The Greats “, were anxious to show that The Apple DOES fall far from the Tree !

Likewise, perhaps, General Lee who conducted himself in such a manner as to repudiate the image of a scandalous father too fond of slow horses and fast women. Mind you, “ Marse Robert “ himself showed an almost incredible propensity to take risks.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/15/2023 7:45:33 PM
MD, you offer this for 16 October: Quote:
1758 Noah Webster, the dictionary guy was born! Is his the 1st, & most popular dictionary?? Comments?

Webster plays his part in the world of lexicography, but he was not first and his work was neither the first nor the most popular. IIRC, his desire was to codify spelling, meaning and (fat chance) pronunciation across the 13 colonies. Given that, his dictionary and those following in his footsteps (think Mirriam-Webster, for one; think Funk and Wagnall’s if you will) became solid working references for US homes, schools and universities.

Dictionaries have existed in some form at least since the popularization of moveable type. But until the early 18th century – in European nations at least – many words’ spelling, meaning and application were flexible. IIRC, in the early years of that century the French Senat charged a committee of scholars to codify French spelling, usage and grammar. This committee, or a similarly created one, still exists as an arbiter of the French language, largely defining which words can be accepted officially into the French linguistic culture but also determining any variations of spelling which might be officially accepted as corect French.

Amongst European languages, however, nobody excels Samuel Johnson, the “Great Lexicographer” (thank you, William Thackeray) as a dictionary-maker. The story is he hired seven assistants, and in the space of seven years generated the basic structure by which all future general dictionaries would follow. To be honest, though it is clear that Johnson was proud of his creation I’m not certain he understood the significance of his achievement.

Sam Johnson’s dictionary remains worth study and appreciation, and at least one US university has made a copy available on line. There are wonderful mistakes in definitions, or definitions which confuse. There are cheeky, opinionated definitions, and witty self-mockery. But the knowledge of Johnson, seen by his references in support of many words, is astounding.

Beside Johnson’s tome, published three years before Webster was born, most early dictionaries pale. But by the 19th century, the Oxford English Dictionary (based on historical principles) would be produced which would make the OED an unchallenged reference to English meaning and, to a lesser degree, usage. The development of the OED has received some attention in the US press this weekend; I’ll try to find the link, because it offers some references I have enjoyed thoroughly.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/15/2023 8:10:25 PM
Quote:

Here is 10-16's just some of the events for tomorrow's history!??

1793 today in history Marie Antoinette was guillotined! One time a person who was about to be killed in this manner agree to blink his eyes after the blade fell, it is said the guy blinked 30 times!! It happened in 1905? What say you? Is that morbid or what?? Also why would lady Marie face such a thing?? Anyone?

1758 Noah Webster, the dictionary guy was born! Is his the 1st, & most popular dictionary?? Comments?

1813 Napoleon wins the battle of Liepzig! What was his strategy? Why is he considered a military genius? Anyone?

1846 Mr Green discovers ether as an anesthetic! Why wasn't it used more often in the Civil War!?? What say you??

1859, today, John Brown's raid & capture of the Federal Arsenal at Harper's Ferry! How could he capture it with such a small force? Was Brown a man to be admired or a terrorist!? Anyone?

1946, 10 of 12 Nazi leaders at the Nurnberg Trials were executed! Any other noted Nazis escape being convicted!?? Comments? What proof is there that many made it to Argentina!? What say you??

1964, Communist China now has the A Bomb! Are them, or the Russians the biggest threat to use it?? Scary!?

1968 3 African Americans at the Olympics ceremony use the black power salute!? Were they justified in doing it? Anyone??

BTW I'm using Encyclopedia Britannica.

Carry on,
Regards,
MD

Also continue with any current topics!


MD, I think you will have to have a word with Encyclopedia Britannica. Napoleon LOST the Battle of Leipzig.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/16/2023 9:27:08 AM
Hi Trevor,

The opening info in the Brittannica indicated he had the upper hand in the battle, but going further the article did mention he lost! 🤔 Shows how much I know about Napoleon's battles?
He did win at Waterloo, didn't he?? 😊

My bad!
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 8:23:38 AM
Guys,

Today, 10-17 in world history, the following occurred, comments??

2018, Marijuana for recreational purposes is legal in Canada!? Has Canada always been liberal in this regard? I know alot of US youth have sought refuge there? What say you?

1979 Mother Teresa wins the Nobel peace Prize! Did she deserve it? & can or should a nun be able to win it?? What say you? Anyone??

& tomorrow, 10-18 in history, check out these events!? New comments? Anyone?

1469 Isabel 1, Married Ferdinand II, Spain had quite the leadership back then, to explore & claim new lands!? Comments on how Spain gained so much territory, & wealth? At whose expense, fair?? Comments?

1851 Herman Melville writes Moby Dick, one of the most read adventure novels of all time!? What about Melville as
a writer, & his topic whaling, is the conservation of whales still a problem? What say you??

1898 Puerto Rico is turned over to the US! Was it by treaty or force!? What say you??

1931 Thomas Edison dies! What were some of his best inventions & achievements is he responsible for? Anyone?

1931 Al Capone is off all things, convicted of tax evasion! Maybe history will repeat itself??

1919, Pierre E Trudeau is born! What effect did he & his family have on Canada's leadership!? Commrnts, maybe from our Canadian posters!?? A lil help here!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 9:15:29 AM
IIRC it was Edison that electrocuted an elephant to "prove" A/C current was dangerous.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 12:38:01 PM
Quote:
1898 Puerto Rico is turned over to the US! Was it by treaty or force!? What say you??


Puerto Rico was invaded by the US in 1898 as a result of the declaration of war made by the US against the Spain. It is questionable as to whether the war was justifiable as Spain had not attacked any US territory. A US ship had blown up in Havana harbour. That was the catalyst for war. At the time it was accepted that an underwater mine had been placed under the ship. 250 unfortunate US sailors perished. Subsequent studies suggested that gas in a coal bunker blew the hull out. The event was the excuse that the US needed to attack Spain.

Was it a mine? Was it an internal explosion. Read this short article published by the US Naval Institute

[Read More]

It is also true that Spain was struggling against insurgents in Cuba and that conflict was causing damage to the US economy. The US did a lot of business in Cuba and there was sympathy for the Cubans who were seeking independence from Spain. I read that the US was doing $100 million dollars in business in Cuba ports at the end of the 19th century.

Spain was also in violation of the Monroe Doctrine in which the US declared that any interference by a foreign power in the affairs of any part of the hemisphere, would be considered an action against the US. The Monroe Doctrine did not presume to expel any foreign powers that were already in control of parts of the Americas but to discourage expansion and any further claims by European countries to any more parts of the Americas. Spain's influence in this hemisphere predates the existence of the US. The Monroe Doctrine carries no official status but it did guide US foreign policy from its inception in the early 1800's.

The defeat of Spain by the US ensured that the US would claim territories formerly controlled by Spain. Guam, the Philippines and Puerto Rico were all ceded to the US. Cuba was supposed to be independent but as events involved, it became a client state of the US.

So I suppose the answer is that the Spanish territories were ceded to the US by treaty after the use of force to compel them to do so. And with that the US joined the ranks of the imperial powers whom they despised.

Cheers,

George
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 1:34:20 PM
Admiral Hyman Rickover authored a study on the Maine explosions. Know it exists, haven't read it.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 3:31:45 PM
Quote:
Admiral Hyman Rickover authored a study on the Maine explosions. Know it exists, haven't read it.


OP, in the article that I provided, reference was made to that study. I think that he concluded that USS Maine was sunk by a mine. I have to re-read the article.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 3:42:47 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Admiral Hyman Rickover authored a study on the Maine explosions. Know it exists, haven't read it.


OP, in the article that I provided, reference was made to that study. I think that he concluded that USS Maine was sunk by a mine. I have to re-read the article.

Cheers,

George


Initially an internal explosion was thought to have caused the sinking, this was then changed to the possibility of a mine. Then, as you mentioned George, Admiral Rickover conducted a deep analysis of information assessing with historians, mechanical and structural engineers, etc, concluding;

"The Hansen-Price analysis, as Rickover called it, was the heart of a short book published in 1976. The 23-page analysis reached this conclusion: "We found no technical evidence . . . that an external explosion initiated the destruction of the Maine. The available evidence is consistent with an internal explosion alone. We therefore conclude that an internal source was the cause of the explosion. The most likely source was heat from a fire in a coal bunker adjacent to the 6-inch reserve magazine. However, since there is no way of proving this, other internal causes cannot be eliminated as possibilities."" (my underlining)

But then; "As the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Maine approached, David W. Wooddell, senior researcher on the editorial planning council of National Geographic magazine, suggested that the magazine commission an analysis of the disaster based on computer modeling not available to Rickover and his team. Advanced Marine Enterprises (AME), a marine engineering firm often used by the U.S. Navy, accepted the mission.

The AME analysis, which was announced in the February 1998 issue of National Geographic, examined both the mine and the coal bunker theories. The report declared that "it appears more probable, than was previously concluded, that a mine caused the inward bent bottom structure and detonation of the magazines."


[Read More]

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 5:47:20 PM
Lovely,, unfog my mind, please. (That would have been in the '80s for me.)
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 8:37:27 PM
Quote:
2018, Marijuana for recreational purposes is legal in Canada!? Has Canada always been liberal in this regard? I know alot of US youth have sought refuge there? What say you?

Canada is both more (and less) liberal than the US. According to certain surveys/polls, Canada rates more highly than the US as a liveable nation. But I have never met a young US person who has changed allegiance so he/she could smoke weed legally.

he biggest influx of US to Canada in most of our lifetimes occurred during the US escalation of the war in Viet Nam, when young men (and their families) sought refuge from the demands of US draft requirements. Looking back on it, Canada was not particularly a nation of choice, but more often the easiest nation that was readily accessible and spoke (in some parts) a language somewhat similar to US English.

Since 2016, there is at least an ground-swell of chat about “movin to Canada”, based largely but by no means exclusively on US election probabilities. More honestly, those folks are being driven by a host of reasons, from police culture to racial tension to medical expenses to a fear of Republican (and, specifically, Trump) assumption of control.

IMHO, this is an ugly situation, made worse by the consequent dismissal at least some of the difficulties and problems that seem systemic in your northern neighbour.

Canada may be an alternative. But it is not a haven.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/17/2023 8:42:57 PM
Quote:
2018, Marijuana for recreational purposes is legal in Canada!? Has Canada always been liberal in this regard? I know alot of US youth have sought refuge there? What say you?

Canada is both more (and less) liberal than the US. According to certain surveys/polls, Canada rates more highly than the US as a liveable nation. But I have never met a young US person who has changed allegiance so he/she could smoke weed legally.

he biggest influx of US to Canada in most of our lifetimes occurred during the US escalation of the war in Viet Nam, when young men (and their families) sought refuge from the demands of US draft requirements. Looking back on it, Canada was not particularly a nation of choice, but more often the easiest nation that was readily accessible and spoke (in some parts) a language somewhat similar to US English.

Since 2016, there is at least an ground-swell of chat about “movin to Canada”, based largely but by no means exclusively on US election probabilities. More honestly, those folks are being driven by a host of reasons, from police culture to racial tension to medical expenses to a fear of Republican (and, specifically, Trump) assumption of control.

IMHO, this is an ugly situation, made worse by the consequent dismissal at least some of the difficulties and problems that seem systemic in your northern neighbour.

Canada may be an alternative. But it is not a haven.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/18/2023 8:19:37 AM
Hi Brian,

I do remember being in Canada on a fishing expedition in the late 1960's, & seeing a fair amount of youth's hitch hiking on Hwy 17 NE of Lake Superior (trans Canadian Hwy?) with signs that simply said BC? Not sure if these hippy types were from Canada or the US!?

Some of us here have at times contemplated moving to the Great White North!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/18/2023 8:27:15 AM
& again today, 10-18, in history, check out these events!? Not commented on yet? Anyone?

1469 Isabel 1, Married Ferdinand II, Spain had quite the leadership back then, to explore & claim new lands!? Comments on how Spain gained so much territory, & wealth? At whose expense, fair?? Comments?

1851 Herman Melville writes Moby Dick, one of the most read adventure novels of all time!? What about Melville as
a writer, & his topic whaling, is the conservation of whales still a problem? What say you??

1898 Puerto Rico is turned over to the US , now a territory! Will it ever become a state? What say you??

1931 Thomas Edison dies! What were some of his best inventions & achievements is he responsible for? He is like pointed out, responsible for electicuting a baby Elephant! Very cruel. Wouldn't you say? Anyone?

1931 Al Capone is off all things, convicted of tax evasion! Maybe history will repeat itself??

1919, Pierre E Trudeau is born! What effect did he & his family have on Canada's leadership!? Comments anyone?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/18/2023 11:31:38 AM
Quote:
Hi Brian,

I do remember being in Canada on a fishing expedition in the late 1960's, & seeing a fair amount of youth's hitch hiking on Hwy 17 NE of Lake Superior (trans Canadian Hwy?) with signs that simply said BC? Not sure if these hippy types were from Canada or the US!?

Some of us here have at times contemplated moving to the Great White North!

Regards,
MD


MD, it was the '60's. It was a period of change and young people were exploring freedoms; the freedom to explore, sexual freedom, the liberation of thought, freedom to protest. I considered heading across the country too but chickened out in favour of a job on the garbage trucks. Opportunities missed, my friend. I still regret that decision though I do know people who spent several days walking along the highway near Wawa, north of Superior, with their thumbs out. It was called the hitchhiker's graveyard because there was so little traffic that the odds on hitching a ride were long. That stretch of highway between Sault St. Marie and Thunder Bay is a long one too, over 700 km.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/18/2023 2:45:45 PM
Quote:
1919, Pierre E Trudeau is born! What effect did he & his family have on Canada's leadership!? Comments anyone?


PET was well educated and an intellectual. Well travelled and educated at the London School of Economics and at Harvard and the University of Montréal, Trudeau realized that his parochial upbringing and that of many Québecois was a hindrance to their development.

He was loved by some and despised by others. It is hard to do the man justice on this section but I would say that he rose to statesman status on the world stage and I cannot say that of all of our PM's.

He was probably more left leaning than the Liberal party that he led but in his biography it was said that he assessed the potential of the NDP (labour party) to form a government and decided that it would be better to join the Liberals. Once rising to party leader, he won four elections so he was very successful.

He is the man that brought our constitution home and included the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the new Canadian constitution.

He also fought the separatists in his home province of Québec considering that their ultranationalist views would hold back the province which had had a Quiet Revolution in which the people decided that they did not want to see the RC clergy interfere in political affairs. He also promoted multiculturalism and bilingualism. He hoped to see the Quebec culture maintained but to see the province happy to be part of Canada.

He tried to develop a National Energy Policy but ran into problems in negotiations with westerners who guarded their natural resources (read oil) with vigour. The oil provinces did not wish to give up control of the profits.


Did I vote for him? I did, twice I think. Despite leaning farther left than the Liberals, I found him to be a captivating speaker and a man of intellect though perhaps a bit pretentious, even snobbish.

I was disappointed during the October crisis in 1970 with the way that he managed the insurrection on the part of séparatistes who kidnapped and killed a Québec politician and had engaged in a series of bombings in the province. Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act and we saw armed troops on the streets of Montréal. That was a step too far for me and replacement legislation precludes the invocation of the new Emergencies Act without Parliamentary approval.

Trudeau was not well lived in the US as the man was determined to see his nation develop its own foreign policies which were not always in lock step with the US. And so, he was raked over the coals in US newspapers because he normalized relations with Cuba and engaged in communication with China and Russia. For that he was accused of being a communist and all sorts of suggestions were made that Castro had sex with his wife and that some of his children were actually Castro's. Tawdry stuff.

The man also amended the Criminal Code to decriminalize homosexual acts and to decriminalize the sale of contraceptives and to make it easier to divorce. That was in 1967 and when asked why he had gone to such lengths he said that there was, "No place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation". I felt at the time that we were being led by a renaissance man.

When he died in 2000, my wife and I made the trek to Ottawa to pay respects as Trudeau lay in state on Parliament hill. Despite disagreement with some of the things that he did, he was the only PM for whom I have made that gesture upon their death.

Cheers,

George
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/18/2023 5:14:50 PM
Quote:


So I suppose the answer is that the Spanish territories were ceded to the US by treaty after the use of force to compel them to do so. And with that the US joined the ranks of the imperial powers whom they despised.


I’ve still yet to see a persuasive viewpoint that the acquisition of these territories and client states by the US was any different from the state of play in other European-controlled territories and colonies in 1898.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/18/2023 8:13:39 PM
Quote:
I do remember being in Canada on a fishing expedition in the late 1960's, & seeing a fair amount of youth's hitch hiking on Hwy 17 NE of Lake Superior (trans Canadian Hwy?) with signs that simply said BC? Not sure if these hippy types were from Canada or the US!?

Some of us here have at times contemplated moving to the Great White North!”
Quote:
MD, it was the '60's. It was a period of change and young people were exploring freedoms; the freedom to explore, sexual freedom, the liberation of thought, freedom to protest. I considered heading across the country too but chickened out in favour of a job on the garbage trucks. Opportunities missed, my friend. I still regret that decision though I do know people who spent several days walking along the highway near Wawa, north of Superior, with their thumbs out. It was called the hitchhiker's graveyard because there was so little traffic that the odds on hitching a ride were long. That stretch of highway between Sault St. Marie and Thunder Bay is a long one too, over 700 km.

Just an observation: drove the TCH from Winnipeg to Vancouver twice in one week in 1968. Took a US route from Winnipeg to Hamilton. Don’t remember seeing a single hitch-hiker. Do remember being held up at the border crossing south of Winnipeg for 5 hours, over fears that my buddy and I were hippies, yippies, or worse going to disturb the Chicago democratic Convention. Were only allowed to proceed because my buddy was an Aussie and therefore an ally. Being Canadian made us automatically suspect.

In 1975, after 3 years in Sault Ste Marie, my family drove west again on the TCH. Two adults, three kids, one Volvo Station Wagon. Fitted in two hikers from Kenora to the ‘Peg; picked up two more from Brandon to Medicine Hat. Never had an issue; even the kids ended up adoring our guests!

I never knew what folks were looking for in BC. It had a smaller, less active “Hippie” movement than Ontario, but the university scene was somewhat incendiary, particularly at Simon Frazer University. Looking back, I think fokls on the road were heading west for climate, some official assistance (BC elected an NDP government in 1972) and a rather open basic skills market.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/19/2023 7:57:45 AM
Today,

10-19 in history, comments??

1781 the surrender of Lord Cornwallis, at Yorktown puts the Patriots, in the drivers seat to win the Revolutionary war!? What say you?? A lil help from France!? Viva la France!??

1789 John Jay becomes the 1st chief justice of the Supreme Court! Is anything wrong with today's Supreme Court? Is it fairly balanced? Anyone??

1812 Napoleon begins his disastrous retreat from Russia, & winter is coming on!? How will this workout for him?? & Will history repeat itself in WWII? Anyone?

1864 Confederate Forces based in Canada attack St Albans, VT. So would you say Canada was harboring Rebels, letting them use Canada as a base!? It sure seems that way? & not the 1st time!? ( the attack on Johnsons Island Ohio) a Confederate Prison Camp, What say you??

1914 the Germans emphasized trench warfare! Does this keep casualties down?? 1st battle of Ypres! How did the Commonwealth forces handle this? What say you??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/19/2023 10:13:37 AM
Quote:
1864 Confederate Forces based in Canada attack St Albans, VT. So would you say Canada was harboring Rebels, letting them use Canada as a base!? It sure seems that way? & not the 1st time!? ( the attack on Johnsons Island Ohio) a Confederate Prison Camp, What say you??


There were Confederate agents or spies operating in the British colonies. But to call them Confederate Forces would be misleading. There were no Confederate army regiments in the Canadas or the other British colonies.

I will add that there were also agents of the US government operating in Canada. They were trying to ferret out Confederate plots. Both Toronto and Montréal were hotbeds of spy activity and Canadian police would watch both sides as they operated freely in the hotels and on the streets.

There was considerable support for the Confederate cause especially among the educated and business class elite who saw the Confederate cause as one of defiance of a bully. Slavery itself was generally not supported in the British colonies and had been banned since 1833. But as I mentioned, the US was seen as a bully and Canada had had considerable experience with that.

There was also concern that Lincoln wasn't really interested in putting a stop to slavery. Lincoln emphasized that his goal was to maintain the union and that secession was illegal. To the Canadian newspapers and the upper class that meant that Lincoln wasn't serious about putting an end to slavery.

There was also an economic benefit to supporting the south and there was a steady flow of goods and arms from the Maritimes to the south if they could break the blockade.

Among the working class in Canada there was support for both sides but 40,000 Canadians did volunteer to serve during this war and most with the Union. It is also true that crimpers were coming across the border and sometimes drugging unsuspecting Canadians who awoke to find themselves on the US side as part of a Union regiment. 29 Canadians won the Congressional Medal of Honor during the civil war. I believe that the captain who hunted down John Wilkes Booth was also a Canadian.

The US Civil War was perceived as an event that could, once again, impact the potential for survival of BNA. The British colonies had long endured threats from the US to invade or annex British territory. The US Secretary of State in the Lincoln administration was William Seward, who had spent his life conspiring to acquire British territory. He was much despised in the Canadas and the Maritimes. I will say however, that for all his perceived flaws, Seward behaved in a far more statesmanlike manner during the period that Confederate spies were operating in Canada and devising schemes to disrupt the union efforts. He had been told by Lincoln that Lincoln wished to fight one war at a time and so Seward consulted regularly with British Ambassador Lord Lyons who worked tirelessly to maintain British neutrality. Lyons was giving advice to the British colonies as to how to mitigate the actions of the Confederates in Canada.

How could spies from both sides operate in Canada? Canada, as part of the British Empire was neutral. If these people whether Confederate or US agents did not violate the laws of the colonies, then they were free to go about their business.

But Confederate President Jefferson Davis decided to send spies to Canada to raise as much hell as they could by engaging in operations that began in Canada and continued across the line. He sent Lt. Col. Jacob Thompson to establish his spy ring. Thompson was given one million dollars and he spent it lavishly, quite enjoying his life in hotels in Montréal and Toronto. Thompson and cohorts would authorized schemes invented by others and mostly watched them fail.

The best case scenario for the Confederacy would have been to see Britain enter the war on the side of the Confederacy. Given the tension between GB and the US, the US had already armed vessels in the Great Lakes in violation of the treaty and Britain had despatched more troops to her colonies. War was closer than we sometimes realize.



It is true that Thompson was responsible for authorizing raids on POW camps in the north. Agents attacked Union vessels on the Great Lakes. Even John Wilkes Booth travelled to Montréal where he planned the assassination of Lincoln and even talked about Lincoln's demise in his hotel. Fires were set in New York by agents operating out of Canada. Attempts to seize US vessels on the Great Lakes were largely foiled.

No doubt there were Canadian collaborators who supported Lt. Col. Thompson but I would be remiss if I did not point out that in the Canadas in particular, operations took place to stop the Confederate agents from carrying out their plots. Remember that the British colonies were in negotiations to amalgamate and the civil war provided the catalyst to do so. So there is no way that the Canadas and the Maritimes wanted to see thousands of Union troops invading.



So what was done? First Canada operated its own spy agency which was established just after the St. Albans affair in which Confederate agents crossed from Canada into Vermont, robbed banks and killed a citizen. A posse of US citizens actually violated the law by chasing the Confederates back into Canada. They intercepted the men but Canadian police sent them home and put the men into custody. Initially they were supposed to be released as they had not committed any crime in Canada. Upon appeal, they were convicted.

The spymaster for the Canadas was Gilbert McMicken. The British and Canada had come to realize that the Confederates had become too bold and with the St. Albans attack had managed to kill someone. McMicken was given a budget and he hired 15 constables who operated in plain clothes. They were to ferret out, “the existence of any plot, conspiracy or organization whereby peace would be endangered, the Queen’s Majesty insulted, or her proclamation of Neutrality infringed.”

Gilbert McMicken





Lt. Col. Jacob Thompson, Confederate spymaster in the Canadas




McMicken's men also were supposed to report on the activities of Union crimpers who were bribing or drugging British subjects and taking them across the border to fight. McMicken also visited US border cities to negotiate with their authorities in an attempt to thwart the Confederate operations.

As well, the Canadas increased the number of patrol boats in the Great Lakes to intercept Confederate agents either coming into the Canadas or leaving with messages for the Confederate command in the US. It was quite common for a Confederate spy to travel across Lake Ontario from Toronto to the other side of the lake with messages for the Confederate side. The patrols would also intercept Confederate leased vessels preparing to attack Union vessels.

So Canada was in a war itself to maintain its independence from an angry United States who felt that the British side were allowing Confederates to operate in the British colonies with impunity.

There were incidents like the Trent Affair or the Chesapeake Affair that nearly brought the British into the conflict. However saner heads prevailed and the war ended without bringing Britain and its colonies into the fray. And three Canadian provinces confederated in 1867.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/19/2023 7:28:29 PM
Hi George,

Since Canada bordered only the Union states, the North had no reason to operate a military in Canada. On the other hand the Confederacy could use Canada as a refuge, & a safe haven to launch raids on the Union! Which they did with St Albans Raid, & the taking over of a Union ship with the intention of freeing the Confederate prisoners at Johnson's Island Prison Camp! Since the attacks originated from Canada, it would have been nice if Canada would have policed their guests from Dixie a little better!?

Never realized 40 K Canadians fought in the Civil War!?

Thanks, & Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/19/2023 9:32:54 PM
Thanks MD. In your first post you said that "Confederate Forces" were based in Canada. From that I thought that you thought that Confederate soldiers were based in Canada as units. That would have been a violation of British neutrality. The people involved in the Confederate raids were often escaped soldiers who made their way north and then joined the organizations in different Canadian towns or cities.

I think that I indicated that the Canadas and the Maritimes didn't want a war with the US. They did try to thwart plans that the Confederates may have had but these operations were largely small group raids, not massive attacks by hundreds of men. The St. Albans Raid comprised 21 men who dashed across the line, did what they wanted to do and then tried to race back where they were arrested. It was probably the largest operation of the war.

They committed their crimes in the US, not in Canada.

As well, the Confederate raids were not well coordinated. It seems that different cells operated independently. Even spymaster Jacob Thompson was unaware of the plans for the St. Albans raid. Those were concocted by two of his lieutenants in Bennett Young who was set up in St. Catherines in Upper Canada and by Clement Clay who operated out of Montréal, much closer to Vermont.

Clay gave Young $1400.00 to finance the St. Albans raid. When Young was ready to go he cobbled together about 20 Confederate soldiers who had escaped to Canada. They were dressed in civilian clothes and travelled to St. Albans in small groups. It took several days for them to assemble in St. Albans. When ready, on Oct. 19, 1864 they brought out weapons and announced that they were taking over the town. They robbed three banks and tried to set fire to buildings, unsuccessfully. They they stole horses and headed for the Canadian border which was about 20 miles away. They split up along the way and were pursued by a Vermont posse of about 50 men. That posse violated international law by crossing the border into Canada.

Americans were outraged that the raid had been planned and originated in Canada. Canadians were outraged that Americans had crossed the border and further outraged to discover that US General Dix had ordered troops to find the raiders even if it meant crossing the border. Even Lincoln disapproved of that telling the army that only he could approve entry into a foreign country.

I won't bore you with the multiple court cases that took place in Canada. But Canadian judges initially said that they had no jurisdiction because no crimes had been committed in Canada. Another determined that the actions of those charged were acts of war and that there was no charge in Canada comparable so he would not order extradition.

The 14 who were apprehended had $87 K on them and it was returned to the US. Eventually, the Canadian government reimbursed the Vermont banks for the rest.

14 of the men were found but Canadian police rescued them from the posse and sent the Americans home. The men were charged with robbery, attempted arson, horse theft, assault, attempted murder, and murder but only to prove whether the men should be extradited and not punished in Canada. They were feted as heroes in Canada East.

I would say that the British and Canadians did a better job of policing the Confederates as the war went on. Initially, they were unaware of the Confederate activities and it takes some time and resources to investigate enterprises like the Confederate raiders who did not operate in the open. Actually, several operations were thwarted in Canada or US interests were informed of the possibility of upcoming activities or US authorities would report to the Canadians that they had some information to share.

And I did mention that there was some sympathy for the south because newspapers in the north were constantly harping about the opportunity to seize Canada. There was a lot of support for annexation at the time. This did nothing to win the hearts and minds of Canadians. And so for some, the wealthy and educated class, the south was fighting against a bully who also threatened Canada.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/19/2023 9:40:53 PM
.Quote:

Just an observation: drove the TCH from Winnipeg to Vancouver twice in one week in 1968. Took a US route from Winnipeg to Hamilton. Don’t remember seeing a single hitch-hiker. Do remember being held up at the border crossing south of Winnipeg for 5 hours, over fears that my buddy and I were hippies, yippies, or worse going to disturb the Chicago democratic Convention. Were only allowed to proceed because my buddy was an Aussie and therefore an ally. Being Canadian made us automatically suspect.

In 1975, after 3 years in Sault Ste Marie, my family drove west again on the TCH. Two adults, three kids, one Volvo Station Wagon. Fitted in two hikers from Kenora to the ‘Peg; picked up two more from Brandon to Medicine Hat. Never had an issue; even the kids ended up adoring our guests!

I never knew what folks were looking for in BC. It had a smaller, less active “Hippie” movement than Ontario, but the university scene was somewhat incendiary, particularly at Simon Frazer University. Looking back, I think fokls on the road were heading west for climate, some official assistance (BC elected an NDP government in 1972) and a rather open basic skills market.

Cheers
Brian G



Thanks Brian,

For sharing your youthful trips on the TCH, & being held up for 5 hours at the US-Canadian border south of Winnipeg, because you looked like Canadian Hippies! (Damn US security!) & sharing that any hippie types, you picked up were great kids! Sounds like you picked up a fair amount of hitch hikers in your time? You don't think this practice is dangerous??

Now I think back to all the people who really were punished for marijuana use, & now ironically it's legal!?

Regards,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/19/2023 10:03:31 PM
Quote:
Thanks MD. In your first post you said that "Confederate Forces" were based in Canada. From that I thought that you thought that Confederate soldiers were based in Canada as units. That would have been a violation of British neutrality. The people involved in the Confederate raids were often escaped soldiers who made their way north and then joined the organizations in different Canadian towns or cities.

I think that I indicated that the Canadas and the Maritimes didn't want a war with the US. They did try to thwart plans that the Confederates may have had but these operations were largely small group raids, not massive attacks by hundreds of men. The St. Albans Raid comprised 21 men who dashed across the line, did what they wanted to do and then tried to race back where they were arrested. It was probably the largest operation of the war.

They committed their crimes in the US, not in Canada.

As well, the Confederate raids were not well coordinated. It seems that different cells operated independently. Even spymaster Jacob Thompson was unaware of the plans for the St. Albans raid. Those were concocted by two of his lieutenants in Bennett Young who was set up in St. Catherines in Upper Canada and by Clement Clay who operated out of Montréal, much closer to Vermont.

Clay gave Young $1400.00 to finance the St. Albans raid. When Young was ready to go he cobbled together about 20 Confederate soldiers who had escaped to Canada. They were dressed in civilian clothes and travelled to St. Albans in small groups. It took several days for them to assemble in St. Albans. When ready, on Oct. 19, 1864 they brought out weapons and announced that they were taking over the town. They robbed three banks and tried to set fire to buildings, unsuccessfully. They they stole horses and headed for the Canadian border which was about 20 miles away. They split up along the way and were pursued by a Vermont posse of about 50 men. That posse violated international law by crossing the border into Canada.

Americans were outraged that the raid had been planned and originated in Canada. Canadians were outraged that Americans had crossed the border and further outraged to discover that US General Dix had ordered troops to find the raiders even if it meant crossing the border. Even Lincoln disapproved of that telling the army that only he could approve entry into a foreign country.

I won't bore you with the multiple court cases that took place in Canada. But Canadian judges initially said that they had no jurisdiction because no crimes had been committed in Canada. Another determined that the actions of those charged were acts of war and that there was no charge in Canada comparable so he would not order extradition.

The 14 who were apprehended had $87 K on them and it was returned to the US. Eventually, the Canadian government reimbursed the Vermont banks for the rest.

14 of the men were found but Canadian police rescued them from the posse and sent the Americans home. The men were charged with robbery, attempted arson, horse theft, assault, attempted murder, and murder but only to prove whether the men should be extradited and not punished in Canada. They were feted as heroes in Canada East.

I would say that the British and Canadians did a better job of policing the Confederates as the war went on. Initially, they were unaware of the Confederate activities and it takes some time and resources to investigate enterprises like the Confederate raiders who did not operate in the open. Actually, several operations were thwarted in Canada or US interests were informed of the possibility of upcoming activities or US authorities would report to the Canadians that they had some information to share.

And I did mention that there was some sympathy for the south because newspapers in the north were constantly harping about the opportunity to seize Canada. There was a lot of support for annexation at the time. This did nothing to win the hearts and minds of Canadians. And so for some, the wealthy and educated class, the south was fighting against a bully who also threatened Canada.

Cheers,

George





George,

I believe Canada becomes a independent country in the British Commonwealth, just after the American Civil War, 1867!

Did the Civil War influence this nationalism of Canada in anyway?
Or just a coincidence??

What say you?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/20/2023 2:00:27 AM
1973 : Sydney Opera House opens.

A unique building dominates the Harbour.

Function and sculpture combine.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/20/2023 3:55:46 AM
Quote:


I believe Canada becomes a independent country in the British Commonwealth, just after the American Civil War, 1867!

Did the Civil War influence this nationalism of Canada in anyway?
Or just a coincidence??

What say you?
MD


Hi Dave,

My reading of the history is a little different. The British Government had sent troops to Canada during the American Civil War to bolster defences there, but ultimately it wished to consolidate the far flung colonies to provide for their own defence wherever possible. At the same time, British garrisons were being withdrawn or at least cut in places in Australia and New Zealand. The confederation of the Canadas and the Maritimes into the Dominion of Canada was part of this process. I don’t think there was great demand for outright Canadian independence but clearly there was a demand for more powers to be held locally.

However, whilst the newly formed Dominion of Canada now controlled much of its own affairs, it remained part of the British Empire. In the event of an attempt of forced annexation by the US, Britain would still have been obligated to come to Canada’s defence. The legal status of ‘Dominion’ was not clearly defined and Canada (and the other self governing Dominions) each got a seat at the table when the Treaty of Versailles was being negotiated in 1919. The Statute of Westminster in 1931 gave virtually all legal powers to the Dominions to govern themselves, making them equal in status to the United Kingdom within the framework of the British Empire and Commonwealth. The final vestiges of British legal jurisdiction over Canada (by then also including Newfoundland), Australia and New Zealand were removed by Acts of the British Parliament in the 1980s.

I have no doubt George and Brian G will offer much more detail and insight than my poor offering!

Cheers,
Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/20/2023 10:47:01 AM
Quote:


I believe Canada becomes a independent country in the British Commonwealth, just after the American Civil War, 1867!

Did the Civil War influence this nationalism of Canada in anyway?
Or just a coincidence??

What say you?
MD

Quote:

Hi Dave,

My reading of the history is a little different. The British Government had sent troops to Canada during the American Civil War to bolster defences there, but ultimately it wished to consolidate the far flung colonies to provide for their own defence wherever possible. At the same time, British garrisons were being withdrawn or at least cut in places in Australia and New Zealand. The confederation of the Canadas and the Maritimes into the Dominion of Canada was part of this process. I don’t think there was great demand for outright Canadian independence but clearly there was a demand for more powers to be held locally.

However, whilst the newly formed Dominion of Canada now controlled much of its own affairs, it remained part of the British Empire. In the event of an attempt of forced annexation by the US, Britain would still have been obligated to come to Canada’s defence. The legal status of ‘Dominion’ was not clearly defined and Canada (and the other self governing Dominions) each got a seat at the table when the Treaty of Versailles was being negotiated in 1919. The Statute of Westminster in 1931 gave virtually all legal powers to the Dominions to govern themselves, making them equal in status to the United Kingdom within the framework of the British Empire and Commonwealth. The final vestiges of British legal jurisdiction over Canada (by then also including Newfoundland), Australia and New Zealand were removed by Acts of the British Parliament in the 1980s.

I have no doubt George and Brian G will offer much more detail and insight than my poor offering!

Cheers,
Colin


Pretty much spot on, Colin. The British colonies had been receiving broad hints and advice since the war of 1812 that it was time for the colonies to take greater responsibility for their own defence. The great Wellington had written a report to the colonies to advise them on how to beef up defences. That led to a spate of fortress improvements at Halifax and Québec and canal building. Certainly the British realized that they could no longer provide sufficient numbers of troops to protect the land. The colonies would have to rely on the mighty RN to blockade and destroy American shipping while trying to transport troops to North America.

There was a bit of a public relations war going on between US politicians and British colonial politicians during the period of expansion westward by the US and Canada in the mid-1840's. Some Americans coveted territory that the British assumed was theirs. They sent agents to the Red River colony and to British Columbia to promote annexation. William Seward, the Sec. of State during the civil war was a great proponent of US expansion into British territory. US representatives also tried to convince British politicians that the will of the people in these western British territories was to be part of the republic to the south. I recall that politicians from British Columbia who favoured independence felt compelled to speak to British politicians to convince them that they wanted to be part of the Empire and needed British protection.

The impetus to amalgamate British colonies began well before the US civil war but certainly gained traction during the war. And the leadership and push for Confederation came from politicians in the Canadas, Canada West and Canada East. This United Province of Canada was anything but as the conflict between French politicians in Canada East and Anglo politicians in Canada West often resulted in stalemates in the legislature and certainly considerable acrimony. Politicians like John A. Macdonald of Canada West felt that a different type of union of colonies would allow his side of the United Province to separate into autonomous units. And so as the US civil war raged, several conferences took place to convince the other British colonies that economically their future lay in Confederation. And defence was also mentioned as an undertaking best effected by a collective approach.

It is no coincidence that proponents of Confederation felt a sense of urgency during the war. There was a million man and well trained army just to the south of the British colonies and little to stop them from picking off individual colonies as they wished. It was felt by the Canadians and by the British that a different sort of political arrangement would lend some gravitas to claims that the amalgamated colonies were worthy of respect as an independent, self-governing body.

The idea of a Confederation of British colonies was not new and had been discussed since the end of the War of 1812. The Durham Report of 1839 recommended the amalgamation of Upper and Lower Canada. That's how we got the United Province of Canada which proved to be a failure as the two cultures could not get along.

Queen Victoria had remarked that the political problems evident in the union of Upper and Lower Canada had to be rectified and she commented that it would be better to let the colonies go as an independent nation. So as the civil war raged, British colonies met in Charlottetown, PEI in 1864 and Québec also in 1864 and finally in London in 1866 to finalize the amalgamation.

The US had become quite disenchanted with British North American colonies because of the number of raids by Confederate agents organized in Canada. After the St. Albans Raid in 1864 there was a reprisal initiated by the US in the form of a cancellation of the reciprocity treaty (a sort of free trade arrangement) between the colonies and the US. That was a rather threatening posture and certainly encouraged the proponents of Confederation to get on with the process.

MD asked whether Canadian nationalism was influenced by the civil war? It is difficult to say. Confederation was a rather practical solution to the problems but not associated with wild displays of nationalism. After all, the new Dominion of Canada was still a part of the British Empire and the Canadians were proud to be British subjects. Given that the some in the colony of Nova Scotia flew its colonial flag upside down once it had joined Confederation, I would say that for some in some colonies, amalgamation was not a positive thing. For the Nova Scotians that did approve of amalgamation, many were motivated by a desire to deter US expansionism. All very practical, as you can see.

Some of the colonies, like Newfoundland decided that it preferred to be independent.

At first anyway. Canadian nationalism grew with time and with confidence.

Cheers,

George


Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/20/2023 2:26:59 PM
Thanks George. As expected, another great post on the history of your nation.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/20/2023 9:19:30 PM
George and Colin, thanks to both of you for good copy. I would happily have lived with Colin’s alone, until George offered his elaboration.

I can’t offer the detail either of you provide, but I would argue that the actions and events which Colin notes and George elaborates on describe an Eastern perspective and Eastern interests. The history between South and North that had grown over some 200 years (1620-1820) did not exist in the West, where “life began at [18]40,” and I’m unconvinced that the United Canadian Province spent much time discussing the totally distinctive Colony of Vancouver Island, only established (as an HBC outpost called Fort Victoria, though consideration was given to the name Fort Albert) in 1843, and gaining colonial status only in 1849 as the Colony of Vancouver Island. only later would the colony gain control of a large section of the Mainland.

[An aside: I feel I must point out, though it seems obvious, that I am speaking post-Contact here. Fort Victoria was built near land sacred to established local First Nations groups for time without end. The European colony grew quickly, and the first Factor of Fort Victoria and second Governor of the Colony of Vancouver protected many First Nations sites starting as early as 1845. James Douglas was a model both US and Canadian officials could learn from!]

West coast proto-cities, whether in the US or in what is new Canada, were few and far between. But before, during and after the ACW, US folks were moving west. Those looking for farmsteads typically stopped before the Rockies; those with other desire continued west until they hit salt water. From 1848, gold was a huge draw, though to the north much of the draw (for both US and CDN folks) was furs. But as the California gold fields panned out, further gold fields were discovered in the Fraser River, and another gold rush ensued. This led the British Colonial Office to expand Victoria’s land control to the mainland. We were almost ready to become the colony of British Columbia, which meant extending British governance and justice across a vast area (~365, 000 sq.mi.).

And from what I infer, we were not concerned about the colonies to the east, any more than they cared about us. We were a Pacific colony; building trade with Asian nations as they opened, offering military bases for RN ships, opening new means of providing new basic goods (e.g., otter pelts), masts and spars for ships, and later coal for RN and civilian steamers.

There had been conflict between the colony and US territories to the south. Of most note is the Pig War of ?1859?, which drew a huge number of red coats to face US troops led by some names of future infamy to the brink of war over a dead pig. And such issues affected the enormous border between what are now the nations of the US and Canada. I can accept that the Pig War caused great disturbance to the Governor of the Colony of BC. But I’m not sure his concerns were similar to concerns in the East as Britain finally began to decide the means by which they would define and control their part of this huge, unruly, violent continent.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 4:53:49 AM
1805 : Trafalgar !

England expects every man to do his duty


Engage the enemy more closely

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 5:09:56 AM
Phil,

I often wonder what the Irish, Scottish, Cornish and Welsh sailors in Nelson’s fleet thought of his message!

:)

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 7:19:31 AM
Quote:
George and Colin, thanks to both of you for good copy. I would happily have lived with Colin’s alone, until George offered his elaboration.

I can’t offer the detail either of you provide, but I would argue that the actions and events which Colin notes and George elaborates on describe an Eastern perspective and Eastern interests. The history between South and North that had grown over some 200 years (1620-1820) did not exist in the West, where “life began at [18]40,” and I’m unconvinced that the United Canadian Province spent much time discussing the totally distinctive Colony of Vancouver Island, only established (as an HBC outpost called Fort Victoria, though consideration was given to the name Fort Albert) in 1843, and gaining colonial status only in 1849 as the Colony of Vancouver Island. only later would the colony gain control of a large section of the Mainland.

[An aside: I feel I must point out, though it seems obvious, that I am speaking post-Contact here. Fort Victoria was built near land sacred to established local First Nations groups for time without end. The European colony grew quickly, and the first Factor of Fort Victoria and second Governor of the Colony of Vancouver protected many First Nations sites starting as early as 1845. James Douglas was a model both US and Canadian officials could learn from!]

West coast proto-cities, whether in the US or in what is new Canada, were few and far between. But before, during and after the ACW, US folks were moving west. Those looking for farmsteads typically stopped before the Rockies; those with other desire continued west until they hit salt water. From 1848, gold was a huge draw, though to the north much of the draw (for both US and CDN folks) was furs. But as the California gold fields panned out, further gold fields were discovered in the Fraser River, and another gold rush ensued. This led the British Colonial Office to expand Victoria’s land control to the mainland. We were almost ready to become the colony of British Columbia, which meant extending British governance and justice across a vast area (~365, 000 sq.mi.).

And from what I infer, we were not concerned about the colonies to the east, any more than they cared about us. We were a Pacific colony; building trade with Asian nations as they opened, offering military bases for RN ships, opening new means of providing new basic goods (e.g., otter pelts), masts and spars for ships, and later coal for RN and civilian steamers.

There had been conflict between the colony and US territories to the south. Of most note is the Pig War of ?1859?, which drew a huge number of red coats to face US troops led by some names of future infamy to the brink of war over a dead pig. And such issues affected the enormous border between what are now the nations of the US and Canada. I can accept that the Pig War caused great disturbance to the Governor of the Colony of BC. But I’m not sure his concerns were similar to concerns in the East as Britain finally began to decide the means by which they would define and control their part of this huge, unruly, violent continent.

Cheers
Brian G



Great post, Brian. If the eastern colonies gave any thought to Vancouver Island and the mainland during the Confederation talks, it was related to ensuring that the new country expanded from sea to sea. I don't think that our third sea in the Arctic gave them much concern. There was an urgency to securing British Columbia's inclusion in the scheme to thwart US expansionist aims.

I was thinking about the railroad which is an odd thought to have in this post but for both Nova Scotia and British Columbia it was the promise of a rail line that helped cement the deal. BC wanted transportation for goods and people to the east without travel through the US and to encourage immigration. Nova Scotia insisted upon the completion of an inter-colonial line in the east to ensure communication and transport to New Brunswick, Québec and Ontario. The intercolonial line was actually our country's first national infrastructure project with completion by the early 1870's.

Brian, how strong would you assess that the annexation movement to the US was on Vancouver Island before amalgamation with BC in 1866?

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 7:41:18 AM
Quote:
Phil,

I often wonder what the Irish, Scottish, Cornish and Welsh sailors in Nelson’s fleet thought of his message!

:)

Cheers,

Colin


And you have to wonder what the English sailors thought, too ! WTF did he mean? Don’t we normally do our duty ? 😂

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 8:25:52 AM


10-20 in history, yesterday.

1808 the US acquired Louisiana Purchase, best Us land bargin? Or was Alaska better? What say you?

2011 Lybian leader Quaddafi is killed! How bad of a leader was he? Who killed him?? Anyone?

10-21's today in world history,

1520, Ferdinand Magellan sails through the southern tip of South America on his ships voyage around the world! What made this passage so horrific?? Anyone?

1797 the US Naval yard in Boston builds the USS Constitution! Old Ironsides prove the RN has nothing on the USN! What say you??

1805 Lord Nelson won the battle of Trafalgar! How did he do it? Why do the Brits hold him in such high esteem!? Comments?? Good point on England expects everyman to do his duty!? ☺

1940 Ernest Hemingway writes the novel For whom the bell tolls! Do you rate Ernest the best US writer? If not than who??

& finally today in history, for 10-22,

1836 Sam Houston becomes the 1st president of Texas! What did he predict to the Texans about the coming Civil War!? Should they have listened!? What say you??

1962, President John Fitzgerald Kennedy alerts America of the Cuban Missile Crisis! How did he react to it? What say you?

What else is going on in this timeframe??

New events to discuss?
Cheers,
MD

Great posts & discussions going on! By all means continue!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 9:00:43 AM
Colony of Vancouver Island, only established (as an HBC outpost called Fort Victoria, though consideration was given to the name Fort Albert) in 1843, and gaining colonial status only in 1849 as the Colony of Vancouver Island. only later would the colony gain control of a large section of the Mainland.

[An aside: I feel I must point out, though it seems obvious, that I am speaking post-Contact here. Fort Victoria was built near land sacred to established local First Nations groups for time without end. The European colony grew quickly, and the first Factor of Fort Victoria and second Governor of the Colony of Vancouver protected many First Nations sites starting as early as 1845. James Douglas was a model both US and Canadian officials could learn from!]

West coast proto-cities, whether in the US or in what is new Canada, were few and far between. But before, during and after the ACW, US folks were moving west. Those looking for farmsteads typically stopped before the Rockies; those with other desire continued west until they hit salt water. From 1848, gold was a huge draw, though to the north much of the draw (for both US and CDN folks) was furs. But as the California gold fields panned out, further gold fields were discovered in the Fraser River, and another gold rush ensued. This led the British Colonial Office to expand Victoria’s land control to the mainland. We were almost ready to become the colony of British Columbia, which meant extending British governance and justice across a vast area (~365, 000 sq.mi.).

And from what I infer, we were not concerned about the colonies to the east, any more than they cared about us. We were a Pacific colony; building trade with Asian nations as they opened, offering military bases for RN ships, opening new means of providing new basic goods (e.g., otter pelts), masts and spars for ships, and later coal for RN and civilian steamers.

Cheers
Brian G



Hi Brian,

As a side light to how attractive Victoria, BC. is, would be I believe it's the only place in Canada that has Palm Trees! Is this true? Any pics??

Who needs the Southern US??
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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