MILITARY HISTORY ONLINE

User:  
Password:  
 
 General History
Page 95 of 115 (Page:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28   29   30   31   32   33   34   35   36   37   38   39   40   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50   51   52   53   54   55   56   57   58   59   60   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69   70   71   72   73   74   75   76   77   78   79   80   81   82   83   84   85   86   87   88   89   90   91   92   93   94    95    96   97   98   99   100   101   102   103   104   105   106   107   108   109   110   111   112   113   114   115 )
Message
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 12:52:02 PM
Quote:
Hi Brian,

As a side light to how attractive Victoria, BC. is, would be I believe it's the only place in Canada that has Palm Trees! Is this true? Any pics??

Who needs the Southern US??
MD


I spent some time in Victoria 1991, absolutely fell in love with the place. Being a SoCal native, maybe I was just used to palm trees as I don't recall seeing such in Victoria, plus that was not why I was there.

Dan

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 1:08:36 PM
Quote:
1808 the US acquired Louisiana Purchase, best Us land bargin? Or was Alaska better? What say you?


I don't know which one had the superior dollar value at the time of purchase. For me a better question is which one had the most significant impact on the development of the US. With that I would say that the Louisiana Purchase was much more important.

The purchase assured that a massive tract of land would be accepted internationally as a part of the US. It made western expansion much more likely and it was accomplished without bloodshed against any other European power. Of course the subjugation of indigenous populations was required and effected over time.

The US would have continued to develop as a powerful nation without the purchase of Alaska. It was not a necessary purchase as much as the LP was. One thing that the Alaska purchase did do was give the US a say as an Arctic power.

Both purchases would create international tensions with Britain and then Canada as borders between both were controversial.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 2:05:29 PM


10-20 in history, yesterday. Moved to new page for easier discussions!?

1808 the US acquired Louisiana Purchase, best Us land bargin? Or was Alaska better? What say you? I concur with George the Louisiana Purchase balanced out the US nation!? Anyone??

2011 Lybian leader Quaddafi is killed! How bad of a leader was he? Who killed him?? Anyone?

10-21's today in world history,

1520, Ferdinand Magellan sails through the southern tip of South America on his ships voyage around the world! What made this passage so horrific?? Anyone?

1797 the US Naval yard in Boston builds the USS Constitution! Old Ironsides prove the RN has nothing on the USN! What say you??

1805 Lord Nelson won the battle of Trafalgar! How did he do it? Why do the Brits hold him in such high esteem!? Comments?? Good point on England expects everyman to do his duty!? ☺

1940 Ernest Hemingway writes the novel For whom the bell tolls! Do you rate Ernest the best US writer? If not than who??

& finally today in history, for 10-22,

1836 Sam Houston becomes the 1st president of Texas! What did he predict to the Texans about the coming Civil War!? Should they have listened!? What say you??

1962, President John Fitzgerald Kennedy alerts America of the Cuban Missile Crisis! How did he react to it? What say you?

What else is going on in this timeframe??

New events to discuss?
Cheers,
MD

Great posts & discussions going on! By all means continue!!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 9:07:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Brian,

As a side light to how attractive Victoria, BC. is, would be I believe it's the only place in Canada that has Palm Trees! Is this true? Any pics??

Who needs the Southern US??
MD


I spent some time in Victoria 1991, absolutely fell in love with the place. Being a SoCal native, maybe I was just used to palm trees as I don't recall seeing such in Victoria, plus that was not why I was there.

Dan




Hi Dan,

Having been there myself, I couldn't agree more, Victoria, BC. Is amazing! Your lucky to live there, Brian!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/21/2023 10:41:55 PM
Yes, Victoria has palm trees. Most folks would say, “So what?”. I would agree with them. Island soil is flexible but rich, and just about anything can be grown here with enough hard work. So the appearance of palm trees doesn’t really signify anything much. They aren’t native to the area; their continued existence probably harks back to Victoria’s nautical links with the Caribbean and certain island groups in the Pacific.

One of my favourite “groves” of palms in Victoria is, I will admit, a bit of a mockery, When I walk to have a pint at my local, I pass a small, not quite squalid one storey, six-unit building called either “The Palms” or (maybe in my fantasies) “Las Palmas”. The unit is a combination of Deco and adobe design, and there are six palm trees, set as pairs to flank the three gates to the property. None of the palms is more than 12 feet: forced palms!

Any local coastal community from San Francisco to Victoria is essentially the same, always with minor things which distinguish one from the other. It’s a beautiful part of the world, and I’m glad I live here. The palms are not at all a part of that, IMHO. They’re abberations.

It’s great to know folks have enjoyed visiting your home town. I’m glad you found the journey worthwhile, and wish I could have shown you some place never mentioned in tourist guides.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/22/2023 1:41:52 PM
Hi Brian,

Regardless on how the Palm Trees are maintained, & grown, I'll take them! Try growing them in Michigan!? 🤔

Thanks, & Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/22/2023 8:01:55 PM
Today, here is 10-23. In history!

1942 Monty beats Rommel at Al Alamein! He was benefited by Malta's defense, ultimately blocking supplies to the Desert Fox!.He was short on tank fuel, ammo, & other supplies!? Plus breaking the German code!?

1944 Adm. Bull Halsey, leads USN in battle of Leyte Gulf! Wasn't it Halsey who after Pearl Harbor, told his men, "kill japs! Kill Japs! kill more Japs"!? He was upset!? What say you??

1983 suicide terrorists kill 300 US ,& French troops in Beruit!? What brought this on?? How do you counter human bombs?? What say you??

Check tomorrow, 10-24 in history!? Comments, & posts, anyone??

1861 the Pony Express ends, & the Telegraph begins? How did Canada send communications across their huge country at this time? Anyone??

1917, In 1 battle 600,00 Italians surrendered! Some say the Italians were not good fighters? What say you? & how did so many give up?? Anyone?

1929 Stock market crashes, Black Thursday! How close are we to this happening again?? What to do with your retirement!? Anyone??

1922 Benito Mussolini becomes dictator of Italy! How did he & Hitler hit it off?? Comments?

1945 the UN s founded! Has it really done much to curb terrorism!? What say you??

1992 the Toronto Blue Jay's win the World Series over Atlanta! The only non US team to do it!? What did it mean to Canada? Do you remember this team?? Anyone??

New events to discuss?
Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/23/2023 9:40:30 AM
Hey what was up? I couldn't find MHO or log in this morning about 8-9 am?

Anyone else have problems??

Finally 9:30 it was back on?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/23/2023 12:21:12 PM
Quote:
Hey what was up? I couldn't find MHO or log in this morning about 8-9 am?

Anyone else have problems??

Finally 9:30 it was back on?
MD



Same here. I kept getting, "Error 404".

We're obviously back now and that's good.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/23/2023 1:20:47 PM
Quote:
1861 the Pony Express ends, & the Telegraph begins? How did Canada send communications across their huge country at this time? Anyone??



MD, are you talking about transcontinental telegraph service from the east coast to the west in the US? I ask because telegraph companies were operating in Canada from about 1846. The first telegraph message in Canada took place on Dec. 19, 1846 The largest company was in Montréal and it linked cities like Sackville (New Brunswick), Detroit, Montréal, Ottawa, Buffalo and Portland, Maine. There was a company in Toronto as well. Apparently, newspapers in Canada wanted the capability to receive and send news items quickly. As in the US, many regional companies were created which eventually amalgamated.

We forget that a lot of communication in North America was oriented in a north-south direction.

The industry expanded west with Ontario linking to Manitoba in 1885. Then the US company Western Union came in and leased the rights to use the telegraph lines. The small regional Canadian companies could not compete and for a few years Western Union had a monopoly on all telegraph service in the country.

Telegraph service followed the rail lines out west and a subsidiary of the rail company, Canadian Pacific Railway Telegraphs added service and then looked eastward to offer competition to Western Union. That broke the monopoly. The CPR was a huge company.

Not to forget the British colonies on the west coast, we note that telegraph service to BC arrived in 1865 with an international line that linked BC in a north-south direction. That line was supposed to head north and across the Bering Sea to Russia but I do not know whether that happened. There is a place in BC called Telegraph Creek and it is significant because it was the staging point for two telegraph lines.

One was the Collins Overland Telegraph line which, as I mentioned was supposed to link North America to Russia but also BC to Calif Telegraph Creek was also the most northern outpost of the Dominion (Yukon) telegraph line which as you may suspect, connected the Yukon to southern Canada.

Now the first transcontinental telegraph line was completed in 1861 as MD mentioned and I believe that BC could send telegrams to the east of Canada via the Overland Telegraph line first routing the signal to the US.

The first transcontinental telegraph line in Canada was completed in 1885 with the completion of the transcontinental railway.


This article is about a woman and her husband in her '80's who had been a telegraph operator. To commemorate the 175th anniversary of Canada's first telegraph message, they were invited to compete with young texters on their cell phones. The lady was given a message at the same time as the people with their telephones. She destroyed them with her delivery of Morse Code. The texters gave up. They weren't as fast as the telegraphers.

When asked whether she thought that teens texting on their phones were butchering the English language she said, "50 years ago I used all those abbreviations, and I don’t think the language was ruined!’”

[Read More]

The stuff you can learn on the internet.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/23/2023 8:23:51 PM
Quote:
1945 the UN s founded! Has it really done much to curb terrorism!? What say you??


The UN wasn't founded to curb terrorism.

It was founded to help maintain peace and security but it has no mandate to enter countries to do so. The UN does not have a standing army ready for deployment and can only act if the UN approves. It is hamstrung by the fact that the permanent members of the security council (Russia, China, US, UK, France) can veto any initiative including resolutions.

When the UN has acted with boots on the ground, the soldiers have been sent in usually as peace keepers and not peace makers. They try to mediate to stop two warring sides from going to war and peace keepers have been killed in that service. We need to respect these men and women for the work that they do. There is a UN contingent from Kenya about to enter Haiti at the request of the Haitians to help put a stop to the gang violence that is preventing peace in that sad country.

When necessary the UN has authorized troops to make peace as it did in Korea during that conflict. The only reason that that happened was because Russia was suspended for a time and the security council was able to pass a resolution authorizing and armed force to defend South Korea.

The earliest UN armed intervention was during the Suez Canal crisis of 1956.

Military personnel working as part of the UN are stationed in hot spots around the world.

The UN does deliver humanitarian aid as it is trying to do in Gaza and it is lobbying with Israel to allow more aid to enter the territory. The UN has provided aid in many countries.

The UN also upholds international law.

Despite its limitations, the UN is the only forum in which all of the countries of the world may meet to parley.

George


George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/23/2023 8:42:56 PM
Quote:
1992 the Toronto Blue Jay's win the World Series over Atlanta! The only non US team to do it!? What did it mean to Canada? Do you remember this team?? Anyone??


Given that there have only been two major league baseball teams based anywhere but the US and both of those were based in Canada, then if any foreign based team could win the championship, it would have to come from Canada. "World Series" is a questionable claim given that it does not represent a contest between nations. No matter what it is called, it was fun to win a championship in Toronto.

I remember the excitement surrounding that win and the talented players. Look at the starting pitchers: Jack Morris, Jimmy Key, Dave Stieb, Pat Hentgen. Top notch. And great position players too like Devon White, Roberto Alomar, Dave Winfield.

Baseball was already popular in Canada as a summer sport. The game has been played here as long and perhaps longer than in the US. As a kid in the early '60's I used to head to Maple Leaf Stadium on the shore of Lake Ontario to watch the Maple Leafs baseball club who were an International League affiliate in the Red Sox fold for a while. The team operated from 1896 until 1967.

No doubt the Jay's victory gave the game greater notoriety and the number of kids, boys and girls, playing baseball has ballooned. There are more Canadians playing at the major league level than ever before.

In the Greater Toronto area there is a sport that is in direct competition with baseball for players and for places to play. And that would be cricket. With the influx of people from India and Pakistan coming to Canada, the demand for places to play cricket has also ballooned. There just aren't sufficient numbers of cricket pitches for all of the leagues and players who wish to play. For municipalities, it is difficult to find places to construct cricket pitches and it is tempting to replace baseball diamonds with pitches especially in areas where baseball and even hockey are no longer number one.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/24/2023 8:44:54 AM
Hi George,

Wow thanks, 3 good posts, sorry it took so long to respond. Yes the 1st post on the Telegraph replaces the pony express in the US in 1861. Remember President Abraham Lincoln kept up with what was going on in the Civil War by using this Telegraph, the 1st national leader to be so blessed! Thanks for pointing out that Canada was using a Telegraph service as early as 1846!

& with regards to the UN, you are correct in that they are not made to be a military army, & are also limited by the 5 nation group which can veto their actions, especially when they are on different sides? How is it that they are helping the Ukraine manage it's battling Russia? Or is that only the work NATO??

Also your last post on the Toronto Blue Jays had good perspectives. I always look at the Jays today as Canada's Team, with Montreal gone, now you need a second team again, perhaps Vancouver? What say you?! In the past the Detroit Tigers had quite the rivalry with the Blue Jays, but now we are in different divisions!!

Thanks for the great posts, you get a A for the day! ☺
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/24/2023 8:58:51 PM

Check Today, 10-24 in history!? Comments, & posts, not commented on yet? anyone??

1929 Stock market crashes, Black Thursday! How close are we to this happening again?? What to do with your retirement!? Anyone??

1922 Benito Mussolini becomes dictator of Italy! How did he & Hitler hit it off?? Comments?

1945 the UN s founded! Has it really done much to curb terrorism!? Specifically what is its mission? What say you?? Thanks George for your take on this!

& tomorrow, 10-25 in history,

1415 the English beat the French again n he battle of Agincourt! They must tire over beating the French all the time!? What say you??

1774 the Intolerable Acts put fuel to the fire! Why were they so intolerable to the Colonists? Do you agree!? Anyone?

1936 the Berlin- Axis is formed! Was it an effective alliance?? Comments anyone??

1950 Red China joins with N. Korea to fight the Allies in Korea! How did this effect the Korean War? Anyone??

1983 under President Reagan, the US invades the tiny Island of Grenada! Why? Was it justified!? Comments!?

New events to discuss? Anyone??
Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 814
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/25/2023 2:25:32 AM
Vegemite turns 100yrs old!!!

"It puts a rose in every cheeeeeeek"

I know, I know it tastes like licking and ashtray! But its one thing that no one will steal from us or re-trade mark.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/25/2023 8:21:29 AM
Quote:
1983 under President Reagan, the US invades the tiny Island of Grenada! Why? Was it justified!? Comments!?


This invasion was condemned by the UN by a vote of 108 to 9. The UN called the invasion a "flagrant violation of international law". I know that there are some people who dismiss these UN censures as nothing more than anti-Americanism but in this case, countries in the same hemisphere as Grenada including Canada and Trinidad and Tobago condemned the invasion. Even the old hawk Margaret Thatcher was upset because she had not been informed and Reagan proceeded unilaterally.

Quote:
“This action will be seen as intervention by a Western country in the internal affairs of a small independent nation, however unattractive its regime. I ask you to consider this in the context of our wider East-West relations and of the fact that we will be having in the next few days to present to our Parliament and people the siting of Cruise missiles in this country…I cannot conceal that I am deeply disturbed by your latest communication.”

source: Margaret Thatcher

PM Pierre Trudeau of Canada said that there were other ways to protect the American medical students on the island rather than resort to a full scale invasion. He threatened to cut ties with the Reagan as he felt that the US had endangered the lives of Canadians studying medicine on Grenada. As well, he had not been informed of the invasion. The US ignored its allies in this endeavour.

To a certain extent, this invasion was seen as an attack on the Commonwealth of Nations. Britain and Canada were very supportive of that association of independent states and so the attack on Grenada was unacceptable to many Commonwealth nations.

It is true that the US managed to cobble together a few other Caribbean nations in support. I believe that some Jamaican troops were involved. It is also true that some Cuban soldiers were on Grenada and I wonder how much that had to do with the US desire to invade.

Reagan was a staunch anti-communist and could not abide a communist revolution in the hemisphere that the US had claimed as being within its sphere of influence. Within the hemisphere there were massive protests in Bolivia, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Nicaragua. There were some in the US as well. Even Congress passed enacted the War Resolution Act which required the President to bring the troops home within 60 days.

Ostensibly the invasion was made to protect the interest of Americans living in Grenada. Over 500 Americans and other internationals had been evacuated by the US military. That included 23 Canadians although the RCAF had dispatched a plane to pick up the Canadians only to find that they were on the US plane. Grenada had denied airport access to the RCAF.

The revolution had been a bloodless coup however but the new leftist government experienced internal quarrels and the new leader was murdered as factions within the revolutionaries fought from dominance. There were unpleasant developments on the island but was any of it grounds for a massive invasion of US troops?

For smaller nations within the hemisphere there is always the fear that the US will us some pretext to enter a country because it wants a policy changed or a government changed or just to get something that it wants.

So was the invasion of Grenada necessary? Happy to hear opposing opinions.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/25/2023 5:13:17 PM
Hi George.

You ask, was the invasion necessary? Toward the peak of the Cold War, the Reagan administration believed that Marxist-Lenin (Communist) entities were establishing a firm control, or at least were attempting control of the island nations of the Caribbean Sea. A Marxist-Lenin group overthrew the established government on hand in 1979 which began to build a larger airfield for commercial use, US Intel deemed the airstrip large enough to take in heavy Soviet transports thus establishing an airfield to project logistical support while extending the communist influence in the region. At some point, the Marxist-Lenin leader Maurice Bishop was overthrown by his Deputy Prime Minister who himself was shoved aside with the establishment of a military council.

Coming two days after the Beirut bombing of US personnel, Operation Urgent Fury was launched to stop this progress and Marxist influence with the focus being the new airfield, there be the casus belli for the Reagan administration. There were island appeals for US assistance in the matter taking place in Grenada of which Jamaican forces actively participated in the invasion of Grenada.

Approximately 700+ Cuban nationals were in Grenada at the time of the invasion, many of which were construction workers, while 64 were known Cuban military personnel. These "workers" served a dual purpose in Cuban life, as a construction worker and as a soldier’s; it was Fidel himself who termed such Cuban personnel.

All that said, was the invasion necessary? Stopping communist influence has always been a life goal for me, it is one reason why I joined the Army (I had two former roommates in the 82nd Airborne who were active in the invasion). It did blunt the influence, growth of communism but, the airport was named after one of the Marxist-Lenin leaders who initially overthrew the British supported government. Thus my answer, is yes, it further stifled the expansion of communism and propped up the continued support of isolating Cuba as well as ending arrests, physical harm and execution of civilians in Grenada that took place prior to the invasion.

Dan

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/25/2023 9:23:54 PM
Hello Dan,

I suspect that anti-communist thought and sentiment is more prevalent in your country rather than that in many others. The need to eradicate communism dominated a good part of the latter half of the 20th century.

The three reasons that the Reagan administration gave for authorizing the invasion were all speculative, weren't they. That made the invasion more of a preventative than a corrective measure.

According to the author of the article that I provided below, the American medical students were all cloistered in one area and were "rescued" quite late in the short battle. They had never been threatened by the People's Revolutionary Army of Grenada. In fact, General Hudson Austin of that army had been in contact with Washington days before the invasion. He wanted to negotiate. By that time, the violence had subsided though a four day curfew had been imposed.

The General also contacted the medical school to offer transport for the students to a nearby supermarket so that they could stock up. He sent an officer around to inquire as to their needs. Administrators of the medical school testified that at no time had they felt that they were in danger.

General Austin also offered safe evacuation of any foreign students who wished to leave. He guaranteed their safety and told the Americans that they could evacuate their citizens. That is when the PM of my country, Pierre Trudeau commented,

Quote:
‘‘Obviously, if they [the Americans] had the authority to do
that, I cannot see any reason for invading to protect your nationals’’


William Bell of Yale, the author of the piece offered below, disputes the need for an invasion and contends that the 6000 troops and all the heavy equipment actually put the students in greater danger.

So I suspect that the reason given that US nationals had to be protected was not the real rationale. Was it the spectre of communism then?

[Read More]

Cheers,

George

OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/25/2023 9:41:17 PM
Did you read any pieces that dispute the one you cite?
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 6:29:47 AM
Quote:
Did you read any pieces that dispute the one you cite?



Yes and most of them cite that same three reasons given by the government for the invasion. All three describe the need for pre-emptive action. So preventative in anticipation of something that had not happened yet.

If you have another analysis then I would be pleased to read it. And I did provide a piece from an academic researcher, not some blogger.

People from the Commonwealth countries have a different perspective of this operation. It is possible that other members of the Commonwealth could have mitigated the after effects of the revolution. As I recall, Canada did offer to send a peace keeping contingent and an election monitoring crew.

The reason that Margaret Thatcher was displeased was because Reagan had promised that he would consult before sending in the troops. As Grenada was a former colony and a member of the Commonwealth, she felt that she was owed that courtesy. As well, Britain was debating whether to allow the installation of US missile sites in the UK and Thatcher sought approval for this measure. She was concerned any military action on Grenada would increase the level of protest over the missiles. That is exactly what happened.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 7:53:54 AM


10-25 in history,

1936 the Berlin- Axis is formed! Was it an effective alliance?? Comments anyone??

1950 Red China joins with N. Korea to fight the Allies in Korea! How did this effect the Korean War? Anyone?

& 10-26 today in history,

1813 the battle of Chateauguay, mostly Frenchmen turn back attempt to take Montreal!? Comments?

1825 The Erie Canal is completed how did this aid in Westward Expansion? Was Canada building canals as well??

1881 the Clanton gang is shot down by Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday, & Co., at the OK Corral! Is today's scene out west simular with all the weapons ect.??

New events to discuss? Anyone??
Cheers,
MD

BTW continue with previous discussions, by all means!? Especially the one on the Grenada Invasion!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 8:18:06 AM
I put more faith in a blogger than "an academic researcher."

When I see the absolutely disgusting mess that is being produced by US University`s and "institutions of higher learning."

Israeli`s are slaughtered in their homes resulting in action against Gaza, Ukraine is draining the US of funds we don`t have, Iran is warned by the US President "don`t" then does, and the military hides the wounding.... some serious... of US troops, and China is a growing threat to the world...while the US is committing suicide. Students pay rip-off amounts of loan-backed debt to get indoctrinated in academic wastelands....and then demand the people who had the sense not to in-debt themselves into oblivion... pay for their gender studies and oppression-victim-hood lesson plans .

" I`ll take blogger for 600 Alex."

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 8:51:23 AM
Quote:
I put more faith in a blogger than "an academic researcher."

When I see the absolutely disgusting mess that is being produced by US University`s and "institutions of higher learning."

Israeli`s are slaughtered in their homes resulting in action against Gaza, Ukraine is draining the US of funds we don`t have, Iran is warned by the US President "don`t" then does, and the military hides the wounding.... some serious... of US troops, and China is a growing threat to the world...while the US is committing suicide. Students pay rip-off amounts of loan-backed debt to get indoctrinated in academic wastelands....and then demand the people who had the sense not to in-debt themselves into oblivion pay for their gender studies and oppression-victim-hood lesson plans .

" I`ll take blogger for 600 Alex."

Respects, Morris


If the blogger wasn't just offering his opinion without any ability or thought to substantiating it then I could agree, Morris.

The British and Canadian views of the Grenada invasion and of which I am most familiar, suggest that invading a sovereign nation just to effect regime change is inadequate justification no matter how suspect the government in question. We've had quite a bit of that in this hemisphere I think.

I hope that you and others will read Mr. Bell's piece. It is thought provoking and deals with issues like sovereignty and the means that our governments use to coerce us into believing that their actions are justified. Give it a chance even if it doesn't jive with previously accepted notions of the rationale behind the invasions.

Cheers, Morris

George
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 11:18:15 AM
Quote:


Students pay rip-off amounts of loan-backed debt to get indoctrinated in academic wastelands....and then demand the people who had the sense not to in-debt themselves into oblivion... pay for their gender studies and oppression-victim-hood lesson plans .

" I`ll take blogger for 600 Alex."

Respects, Morris


How many American students study 'gender studies' and undertake 'oppression-victim-hood lesson plans'?

Academic researchers are required to source their evidence and back up their theories. Bloggers can post anything they like without the scrutiny afforded to those in academia. I'll take academia over bloggers any day of the week; generally speaking, of course.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 11:32:18 AM
I spent 14 years at Purdue, thank you tax payers. I learned the difference between "fun topic" and "serious research". Most people don't even know there's a difference.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 1:28:12 PM
Quote:
1813 the battle of Chateauguay, mostly Frenchmen turn back attempt to take Montreal!? Comments?


The Battle of Chateauguay was one of the most important victories for the British/Canadian side and yet it resulted in very few casualties on either side.

This battle was half of a well conceived plan to seize Montréal. From there it would have been easy to head to the west to take the important British naval base and fortress at Kingston. That would have eliminated the RN threat on Lake Ontario and allowed the USN to operate freely in that lake and to lend critical support to the other US forces on the Niagara Peninsula.

The US plan would see General Wade Hampton and about 3000 troops approach Montréal from the south. He followed the Chateauguay River which was quite marshy along the chosen route and in October not deep enough for boat travel. His men were in summer kit and anyone who lives in this part of the world knows that the weather is in transition at this time of the year. Nights are colder and the possibility of snow is always there.

The second part of the US plan was for General James Wilkinson to approach Montréal from the west and travel on the St. Lawrence River from the US base at Sacket's Harbor on Lake Ontario.

Wilkinson and Hampton hated one another. I believe that it was Wilkinson who refused to work with Hampton and that forced Sec. of War, John Armstrong to placate him by offering to be the intermediary between the two men.

On this map you will find Chateauguay just to the south of Montréal



As battles go, Chateauguay was not particularly costly as I have mentioned. The US had a clear numbers advantage and were met by a force of colonial militia, most of whom were French-Canadians and First Nations from Khanawake near Montréal. They were led by a French-Canadian as well in Lieutenant-colonel Charles-Michel d'Irumberry de Salaberry.

I am not sure that Gen. Hampton's heart was in this battle. He never realized nor tried to discover how many men he was facing. The colonial militia and FN's made such a loud racket that Hampton felt that he was opposed by thousands. There were only 1500 and very few were regulars. I should add that Hampton was hamstrung by a reluctant militia. About 1000 men refused to leave the US to fight.

Hampton sent an advance party to work its way behind the French-Canadian position which was situated on the east side of the river but with a swamp behind them. Despite having hired guides, they proved to be incompetent and the advance force of 1500 got lost in the woods. Hampton himself would lead the second group in a frontal assault.

As this was evolving, Hampton received a message from the Sec. of War that winter quarters were being constructed for his men in New York state. That confused Hampton. Shall I fight? Does Armstrong want me to abandon the mission? Has Wilkinson abandoned his mission? With his advance party already on the march and getting lost in the woods, Hampton decided to continue with the mission. It proved to be disastrous.

The advance party was being sniped at by FN warriors whom they could not see very well in the bush. They also were using "buck and ball" ammunition and it was not accurate. Too many shots just buried in the thick tree growth.

Meanwhile the frontal assault went on for several hours but the colonial troops manage to turn each US foray back. The advance party failed to outflank the Canadian position and began to run in confusion as they were being pursued by warriors. Realizing that his plan had failed, Hampton called off the attack and began to retreat to the winter quarters that were being built for him. By Oct. 29, Hampton's force was back in the US.

The losses for the Americans were only 23 dead, 33 wounded and 29 missing. The colonial troops had barricaded themselves behind well constructed abatis and suffered only 2 killed, 16 wounded and 4 missing. The time that they had spent in constructing defensive positions protected them well and made it difficult for the attacking force to reach them.


And this map shows Crysler's farm where Gen. Wilkinson's forces were defeated by British regulars and Canadian militia. This force had been following Wilkinson downriver and harassing them from the shore. Upon reaching Crysler's Farm, he stopped and turned to face his British opponent. The British commander had stopped at a place that would favour him and on Nov. 11, soundly defeated Wilkinson's large army of 8,000 again with a much smaller force.



When Wilkinson received word that Wade Hampton had abandoned his attack at Chateauguay, he continued along the river for a while and then also abandoned his attack on Montréal. He crossed the river and headed home.


These two battles, Chateauguay and Crysler's Farm are sometimes described as the battles that saved Canada. More than a little hyperbole perhaps but they were important victories. The Americans never again threatened Lower Canada and so Québec City was safe. The fortress there was the last line of defence and the British had realized that with the loss of Kingston and Montréal and the fact that the Americans were fighting on the Niagara Peninsula, they would have had to retreat to east.

Lt. Col. De Salaberry was a hero and feted in Lower Canada. He was most displeased that the British failed to honour him properly. His commander, George Prevost had actually reported that he was at the battle and that his 2 IC a Major-General Abraham Ludwig Karl von Wattenwyl deserved credit for planning the battle. De Salaberry was stung by being overlooked. Prevost had come to the battle site after the fact and it was De Salaberry who had planned the defence.

De Salaberry protested and eventually Prevost wrote a letter of praise but in private would disparage this officer. Discouraged and unwell, De Salaberry sold his commission. He was the wrong sort of British officer in that he was French-Canadian and a catholic as well.






Good account of the Battle of Chateauguay

[Read More]


Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 6:45:49 PM
George,

You mention light casualties in these battles. I mean how many soldiers can be involved & then killed, in a battle over a farm!? (Chrysler's Farm)?? Funny this vital battery, named after a farm??

I realize 1000 'S of American troops were involved! It is unique that Wade Hampton was a US Commander back then, he would be the head of a line of Wade Hamptons from Charleston, that would command troops for battles, & wars in decades to come! Can you trace this South Carolina family from the Revolution through the Civil War??

What say you??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/26/2023 9:20:53 PM
Quote:
George,

You mention light casualties in these battles. I mean how many soldiers can be involved & then killed, in a battle over a farm!? (Chrysler's Farm)??

MD


Different battle, MD. Chateauguay was the battle with the casualty figures that I quoted.

The Battle of Crysler's farm just happened to have been fought on John Crysler's land. And it wasn't fought by the full US force that Gen. Wilkinson led. He was ahead farther east with the lead elements. The group representing the rear guard of this army numbered 1600 though some sources say that there were 2500 of them. The whole US army comprised 8000 men.

They were commanded by Gen. John Boyd and his men were being harassed from the rear. Wilkinson ordered him to attack and he turned to face west to meet the much smaller British continent of 800 men led by Col. J. W. Morrison. Of the 800, 600 were regulars. The rest were militia or First Nations.

The Americans attacked and were cut down by accurate volleys by the British.

British losses were 22 killed, 148 wounded and 9 missing.

US losses were 102 killed, and 237 wounded. Some sources say that there were more casualties than that. The British took over 120 prisoners.

As I mentioned, the number of casualties wasn't large but the victory was extremely important.

BTW, the original site of Crysler's Farm is under water. When the St. Lawrence Seaway was opened a good deal of John Crysler's farm was permanently flooded.

George


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 9:51:11 AM
Today 10-27-1978, President Carter, Sadat, & Isreal's PM Began, are awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, Is there hope for peace in the current crisis or really anytime? In the Middle East?? Why is it a fire keg? Anyone??

Tomorrow, 10-28 in history!?

1704 John Locke passes away! He had some major ideas on how a government should be run! What say you about his influence on today's Western Governments?? Lockean philosophy anyone??

1790 Spain yields to Great Britain on the Nootka Sound Controversy! What was this controversy about? What effect did it have on the future British Columbia!?? Comments!?

1886 the Statue of Liberty is dedicated! Who made out the best? the US, or France with the Effil Tower?? Anyone?

1962 Nikta Khrushchev pull missiles out of Cuba! What caused him to do this? What say you?

Also in 1919 Prohibition is enforced despite President Woodrow Wilson being against it! Who started this Prohibition thing anyway!? I'll drink to that!? Comments?? What other countries have tried to prohibit Alcohol consumption, & sales!!??

1971 Great Britain launches a major satellite l why weren't they a major player in space?? What say you!?

Comments on any of 10-28 in history!??
Regards,
MD

BTW we have MHO'ers from a fair amount of countries please, sometimes would you guys give us history events from your countries!? We would like that!! ☺
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 10:30:34 AM
Future US President Theodore Roosevelt was born on 27th October 1858. A true force of nature. Oh, for his ilk today.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 11:16:12 AM
President Jimmy Carter did NOT receive a Nobel Prize for Peace along with Sadat and Began in 1978. The claim was that he was not nominated in time. So, it seems that the Peace between Began and Sadat came about through osmosis.
Obama was nominated for it 2 weeks in office, and was awarded the Nobel Prize For Peace when in office for 8 months. Says all you need to know about the Nobel Committee .... Ghandi was nominated many times....never won!

Carter did receive the prize years later....but not for his signature work... the Camp David Accord, but for a lifetime of pursuing peace... not 8 weeks of showing up.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6508
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 11:28:54 AM
Quote:
Future US President Theodore Roosevelt was born on 27th October 1858. A true force of nature. Oh, for his ilk today.

Cheers,

Colin


Thanks for posting this, Colin.

To my shame, I know next to nothing about Theodore Roosevelt, and your contribution inspired me to make a quick google reference to find out more about him.

I was captivated by what I was learning.

I’d always assumed that he fitted the caricature of a bellicose show off, quite a bully and a keen proponent of aggressive imperialism. Ernest Hemingway attributes, rather than those of George Orwell.

Not so, apparently : he looks like a decent, sensitive soul with a tenderness to match : he would mix well with Kipling or Mark Twain. He also seems to have hallmarks redolent of Bismarck, The Iron Chancellor.

What an interesting man !

Editing: I confess that I might well be unfairly caricaturing Ernest Hemingway. The tough guy image he projected might well have concealed something a lot more delicate.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 12:39:30 PM
Quote:
1971 Great Britain launches a major satellite l why weren't they a major player in space?? What say you!?


I must ask, what is a major player in space?

The UK has been involved in space for over 50 years. Their scientists have helped to design space vehicles and they design and make sophisticated satellites for many different reasons including communications. They have designed and built many devices for NASA like an ultra sensitive camera for the James Webb Space Telescope.

I think that we sometimes look at the countries with rocket delivery systems and assume that they are the only countries involved in space. One look at the International Space Station should disabuse us of that thought as many countries have contributed to its design and upgrades.

And I believe that the UK used to have a rocketry programme in the '70's that did design and build a rocket that delivered a UK designed and built satellite into space. Why they got out of that type of rocketry, I do not know. Cost perhaps??

Britain is also very active in the European Space Agency. They are building spaceports to provide launch services.

The UK has a branch of the RAF called UK Space Command. This unit monitors activities in space as a defensive measure to make sure that bad actors cannot compromise the UK and allies ability to defend themselves.

Many countries have space programmes but not all produce delivery systems. Hopefully our British friends will weigh in on this topic.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 1:12:23 PM
Quote:
Future US President Theodore Roosevelt was born on 27th October 1858. A true force of nature. Oh, for his ilk today.

Cheers,

Colin



I suppose that appreciation of this man depends upon whether your country has been threatened and bullied by him. I refer to the Alaska Boundary Dispute with Canada in which he essentially dictated the results that he expected to see the "impartial tribunal" deliver. Canada was represented by two Canadians and a Briton and it is our belief that Britain would have done anything to placate the US in the last years of the 19th century. Canada felt betrayed when the British representative sided with the US version of a boundary.

Roosevelt announced that he would send in the marines if the US position was not supported by the tribunal's decision. And indeed, the UK representative on the Canadian side was perceived to have caved and for Canadians, it was not the first time that boundary disputes had been settled in favour of the Americans by the British. Canada has no access to deep water fiords that would have provided a port for the Yukon. Roosevelt would have none of it. And so the map of Canada will show a long, thin panhandle that dominates most of Canada's west coast. Ironically, electricity and health care and educational services (from time to time) are provided to remote towns on the Alaska panhandle by British Columbia.

Walking softly while carrying a big stick may sound bold and brash but it is not very appealing when you're the one being hit with the stick

Cheers,

George.

Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 1:44:29 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Future US President Theodore Roosevelt was born on 27th October 1858. A true force of nature. Oh, for his ilk today.

Cheers,

Colin



I suppose that appreciation of this man depends upon whether your country has been threatened and bullied by him. I refer to the Alaska Boundary Dispute with Canada in which he essentially dictated the results that he expected to see the "impartial tribunal" deliver. Canada was represented by two Canadians and a Briton and it is our belief that Britain would have done anything to placate the US in the last years of the 19th century. Canada felt betrayed when the British representative sided with the US version of a boundary.

Roosevelt announced that he would send in the marines if the US position was not supported by the tribunal's decision. And indeed, the UK representative on the Canadian side was perceived to have caved and for Canadians, it was not the first time that boundary disputes had been settled in favour of the Americans by the British. Canada has no access to deep water fiords that would have provided a port for the Yukon. Roosevelt would have none of it. And so the map of Canada will show a long, thin panhandle that dominates most of Canada's west coast. Ironically, electricity and health care and educational services (from time to time) are provided to remote towns on the Alaska panhandle by British Columbia.

Walking softly while carrying a big stick may sound bold and brash but it is not very appealing when you're the one being hit with the stick

Cheers,

George.



Hi George,

Very fair points and I must confess I hadn’t considered Roosevelt’s policy with Canada. My admiration for the man more focuses on the attack on monopolies, a square deal for working people and an appreciation that the US needed to pursue Progressive policies to alleviate the social ills that came with urbanisation.

Cheers,
Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 2:08:08 PM
Yes, of course Colin. The man did have some progressive policies. My opinion is clouded by my frame of reference and so I see him as an imperialist. It tends to limit my ability to examine fairly his domestic policies.

Cheers,

George
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 3:44:53 PM
Quote:


Britain is also very active in the European Space Agency. They are building spaceports to provide launch services.

The UK has a branch of the RAF called UK Space Command. This unit monitors activities in space as a defensive measure to make sure that bad actors cannot compromise the UK and allies ability to defend themselves.

Many countries have space programmes but not all produce delivery systems. Hopefully our British friends will weigh in on this topic.

Cheers,

George


Not since Brexit. It had the word "European" in it so they marched out of it to make their own superior " British" version. Did not go too well. Has joined the unicorns, the sunlit uplands and the rest of the British neo-imperial dream.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 3:51:48 PM
Thanks Trevor,

Which part is incorrect? I thought that the UK was still a participating member of the ESA and still active in their programmes.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 6:00:33 PM
The "United Kingdom" is one of twenty two ESA member states.

Dan
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 6:37:35 PM
My apologies gentlemen. Definitely getting old. I shouldn´t post when I am tired and especially on the subject of Brexit. Confused the ESA with the Galileo satellite project, and the EMA - European Medical Agency. I promise, in future to wait a half hour before answering anything to do with Brexit.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Page 95 of 115 (Page:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28   29   30   31   32   33   34   35   36   37   38   39   40   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50   51   52   53   54   55   56   57   58   59   60   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69   70   71   72   73   74   75   76   77   78   79   80   81   82   83   84   85   86   87   88   89   90   91   92   93   94    95    96   97   98   99   100   101   102   103   104   105   106   107   108   109   110   111   112   113   114   115 )

© 2024 - MilitaryHistoryOnline.com LLC