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Message
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 9:08:52 PM
Quote:
My apologies gentlemen. Definitely getting old. I shouldn´t post when I am tired and especially on the subject of Brexit. Confused the ESA with the Galileo satellite project, and the EMA - European Medical Agency. I promise, in future to wait a half hour before answering anything to do with Brexit.

Trevor


No worries, Trevor.

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/27/2023 9:31:00 PM
Moved to new page for possible new comments!?

Today, 10-28 in history!?

1704 John Locke passes away! He had some major ideas on how a government should be run! What say you about his influence on today's Western Governments?? Lockean philosophy anyone??

1790 Spain yields to Great Britain on the Nootka Sound Controversy! What was this controversy about? What effect did it have on the future British Columbia!?? Comments!?

1886 the Statue of Liberty is dedicated! Who made out the best? the US, or France with the Effil Tower?? Anyone?

1962 Nikta Khrushchev pull missiles out of Cuba! What caused him to do this? What say you?

Also in 1919 Prohibition is enforced despite President Woodrow Wilson being against it! Who started this Prohibition thing anyway!? I'll drink to that!? Comments?? What other countries have tried to prohibit Alcohol consumption, & sales!?

Comments on any of these 10-28 in history events!??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/28/2023 7:35:52 AM
Liberty v. Eiffel? The Eiffel is amazing, Dame Liberty is beautiful. IMNSHO.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/28/2023 9:02:20 AM
Quote:
Liberty v. Eiffel? The Eiffel is amazing, Dame Liberty is beautiful. IMNSHO.


I'm not sure what MD meant by, "who made out the best?". They're both iconic structures and well known across the world.

And both were designed by French men, one a civil engineer (Eiffel) and the other a sculptor (Bartholdi). I don't know enough about art to determine whether both structures represent a French style.

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/28/2023 9:27:05 AM
Quote:
1790 Spain yields to Great Britain on the Nootka Sound Controversy! What was this controversy about? What effect did it have on the future British Columbia!?? Comments!?


Spain, the UK, Russia and the US were all vying for position on the West Coast. All wanted to assert sovereignty and all were concerned with navigation and trading rights with the indigenous people.

In 1784 Spain claimed sovereignty over parts of the west coast of North America. Britain argued that if you aren't occupying a territory, it isn't yours. They also argued that Spain had no right to assert control over navigation in the Pacific Northwest. Spain claimed that they had rights granted by a Papal Bull. Britain argued that voyages by Francis Drake in 1579 and by James Cook in 1778 gave them the upper hand in the NW.

Spain felt that it had built a naval post at Nootka Sound on the west coast of Vancouver Island and felt that that constituted occupation. It was the only Spanish settlement ever to be built in the area that became Canada.

In 1789, a British trader named John Meares sailed into the harbour, the commandant of the Spanish post seized the vessels. Meares sent a message home that this violation of sovereignty had occurred. It arrived in 1790. Britain demanded compensation or it would be war.

Spain was preparing for that war and hoped that its ally France would join the fray. But check the year. In 1790, France was in revolt.

Spain decided that it would be better to negotiate and the result was the Nootka Conventions which essentially acknowledged that both nations could establish temporary buildings at Nootka but no large and fortified forts. Both had fishing and trade rights and this convention extended those rights to other places on the coast that weren't already claimed by Spain.

Nootka Sound was a free port then but both countries had left by 1795. The real losers were the indigenous people who had occupied this land for thousands of years. They weren't consulted about anything to do with their sovereignty which, of course, they thought was understood.

The US would become another player when sailing vessels explored the Columbia River basin and when Lewis and Clarke made their overland trek.

Cheers,

George
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
10/28/2023 9:57:01 AM
The irony of the Volstead Act...or prohibition is that it was championed by women`s suffrage and temperance groups because they felt that women in the home were victims of men who drank away the rent money. Very few women drank, and it was considered damaging to a woman`s reputation to be be in a saloon or bar. Such incidents became known by word of mouth. Prohibition gave rise to "speak-easy`s " hide-a ways for those who flaunted the law against the use of alcohol. More women started to drink in these underground bars and saloons because no one was gong to broadcast their presence there...they were all breaking the law!

Alcohol abuse and alcoholism among women exploded. So, thanks to prohibition, and the governments micromanagement of personal behavior, Dad and Mom both were now drinking away the rent money.

Prohibition also created "the mixed drink" craze. Bath-tub gin and whiskey tasted so bad that creative efforts began to make it more palatable.

But more dastardly, prohibition gave rise to the black market, gin-running, organized crime that would run rampant for more than a decade. The era of Capone.

Woodrow Frickin Wilson`s opposition to the Volstead Act, ( he vetoed it but was overridden ) was one of the few times the progressive scalawag was actually right about something! He didn`t believe in trying to legislate moral decisions....curtailing the rights of people in just about every other way, and government controlling almost every other aspect of their lives was OK...just not doing away with the use of alcohol.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/28/2023 10:53:19 AM
AND, when Henry J. Anslinger needed a crusade when Prohibition ended he settled on marijuana, heretofore (mostly) unregulated. Took almost a century to get that corrected.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
10/28/2023 11:28:23 AM
Anslinger was suspected of cracking down on hemp to help DuPont rid itself of a competitor to it`s new nylon product. The use, by Corporation, to eliminate competition and create an unfair marketplace. He also seemed to be against marijuana because of it`s tax avoidance aspects. If government can`t get it`s cut... then it`s bad for you! He used the case of a boy who slaughtered his family to imply he was driven crazy by smoking pot. Never mind the boy was mentally ill. Kinda like blaming the gun for crimes committed by people with mental illness.

Also ironic that Anslinger became Senator Joseph McCarthy`s morphine supplier! McCarthy was an alcoholic and a morphine addict until his death in 1957.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
10/28/2023 11:41:57 AM
And thus we got the Hollywood epic, "REEFER MADNESS."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/28/2023 11:44:04 AM
Quote:
Also in 1919 Prohibition is enforced despite President Woodrow Wilson being against it! Who started this Prohibition thing anyway!? I'll drink to that!? Comments?? What other countries have tried to prohibit Alcohol consumption, & sales!?


Prohibition in Canada also saw its roots in the Temperance Movement. There were a number of proponents of a ban on liquor production and sale but the Women's Christian Temperance Union was front and centre on that front. Somewhere in the family archives is a picture of my old Scottish Nan sitting with a group of rather stern looking women. They were part of group called the Order of the Good Templars which also advocated for a ban on alcohol sales.

I often wondered where Pop hid his bottles of Scotch from Nan, because he was quite fond of a "wee dram".

In 1878, a federal law was passed that permitted local municipalities to ban the sale of alcohol. I recall that even in my youth in the '60's and '70's there were areas of Toronto that had voted many years before to remain dry. There were many small towns and villages that became part of the city of Toronto and upon amalgamation, their prohibition laws were maintained. Restaurant owners in dry parts of Toronto used to complain that they could not compete with restaurants in wet areas.

There is an area in Toronto called The Junction. It used to be a rough spot but is now experiencing gentrification. And it was the last area of Toronto to see its ban on alcohol sales repealed. That was in 2000. There was a man named, "Temperance Bill" Temple who had fought for his whole life to retain the dry status of this west Toronto area. He was powerful enough to sway politicians and had the support of the churches. He died in 1988 and bit by bit, areas would vote to go wet. When it was found that Temperance Bill's predictions of increased crime and drunks rolling in the streets didn't materialize, it became much easier for petitions to go wet to succeed.

In 1898 a national plebiscite was held and while indicating some support for prohibition, the government didn't feel that it was strong enough to warrant a national ban. I think that those outliers, the Quebeckers, had something to do with that decision as that province voted 80% against any sort of prohibition. Bless their hearts.

So one by one, the provinces began to enact prohibition legislation. That prevented the sale and consumption of alcohol. But Canada's regulatory system surrounding booze did give the provinces the right to ban sales. But the provinces could not ban production.

The federal government controlled manufacture and trade and so it was still legal to produce hooch but not to sell it in Canada. What to do then? Well there was a thirsty country to the south that was willing to buy and smuggling became a lucrative venture. Windsor, Ontario to Detroit, Michigan was a popular route for smugglers.

The ban on alcohol didn't last long in Canada. There was little appetite for it among the people and by 1920, prohibition laws were being repealed in the provinces. Quebec had rejected prohibition in 1919 and experienced a huge uptick in sales especially to visitors from other provinces. My province of Ontario gave up in 1927.

I will add that the French islands of St. Pierre et Miquelon off the coast of Newfoundland experienced an economic boom during US prohibition. Large storehouses were built on the island and Canadian distillers shipped a lot of product there. Smugglers would load up and sail to the US to anchor in international waters while US smugglers would sail out to pick up their liquor.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/29/2023 8:23:17 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Liberty v. Eiffel? The Eiffel is amazing, Dame Liberty is beautiful. IMNSHO.


I'm not sure what MD meant by, "who made out the best?". They're both iconic structures and well known across the world.

And both were designed by French men, one a civil engineer (Eiffel) and the other a sculptor (Bartholdi). I don't know enough about art to determine whether both structures represent a French style.

George



OP, & George,

I guess what I meant was both of these famous Iconic symbolic artistic structures, seem to be more than just sculptures. They represent their respective countries! I have been to the Statue of Liberty, actually inside it, but not the Eiffel Tower. It's hard to say one is more impressive than the other, but I guess that was what I was foolishly asking!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/29/2023 8:30:13 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1790 Spain yields to Great Britain on the Nootka Sound Controversy! What was this controversy about? What effect did it have on the future British Columbia!?? Comments!?


Spain, the UK, Russia and the US were all vying for position on the West Coast. All wanted to assert sovereignty and all were concerned with navigation and trading rights with the indigenous people.

In 1784 Spain claimed sovereignty over parts of the west coast of North America. Britain argued that if you aren't occupying a territory, it isn't yours. They also argued that Spain had no right to assert control over navigation in the Pacific Northwest. Spain claimed that they had rights granted by a Papal Bull. Britain argued that voyages by Francis Drake in 1579 and by James Cook in 1778 gave them the upper hand in the NW.

Spain felt that it had built a naval post at Nootka Sound on the west coast of Vancouver Island and felt that that constituted occupation. It was the only Spanish settlement ever to be built in the area that became Canada.

In 1789, a British trader named John Meares sailed into the harbour, the commandant of the Spanish post seized the vessels. Meares sent a message home that this violation of sovereignty had occurred. It arrived in 1790. Britain demanded compensation or it would be war.

Spain was preparing for that war and hoped that its ally France would join the fray. But check the year. In 1790, France was in revolt.

Spain decided that it would be better to negotiate and the result was the Nootka Conventions which essentially acknowledged that both nations could establish temporary buildings at Nootka but no large and fortified forts. Both had fishing and trade rights and this convention extended those rights to other places on the coast that weren't already claimed by Spain.

Nootka Sound was a free port then but both countries had left by 1795. The real losers were the indigenous people who had occupied this land for thousands of years. They weren't consulted about anything to do with their sovereignty which, of course, they thought was understood.

The US would become another player when sailing vessels explored the Columbia River basin and when Lewis and Clarke made their overland trek.

Cheers,

George





Thanks George,

On land clam maps of North America, you always see the Spanish claims to what would become the US, & Canadian Pacific coasts being claimed by Spain. Always thought this claim was not to substantiated. You've helped clear that up.for me.

Regards,
MD

BTW guys, continue on the discussion of Prohibition!
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/29/2023 8:35:13 AM
On this day in 1918, German sailors refused – for the first of five times – to go to sea to face the Royal Navy. I believe, in any western navy, a refusal to obey legitimate orders falls under the term “mutiny”.

Also today 10-30-95 Quebec almost breaks away from Canada!? How can this be? & A simple vote is a legal means to break.away?? Boy if it happened Canada would be fractured!??

Help me understand this??
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/29/2023 1:12:51 PM
Quote:


On this day in 1918, German sailors refused – for the first of five times – to go to sea to face the Royal Navy. I believe, in any western navy, a refusal to obey legitimate orders falls under the term “mutiny”.



Back in September I visited Orkney, where the natural harbour of Scapa Flow holds the remains of much of the interned German High Seas Fleet, scuttled by the Germans in 1919 to prevent the Allies from seizing their vessels. Although some of the ships were salvaged and put back into use, there is an ongoing salvage and scrap operation bringing up hunks of steel from these ships. A good few German sailors and officers inadvertently died during the scuttling too.

The ships were interned for the best part of a year following from the November 1918 armistice, where the surrendered German ships were escorted to Scapa Flow and guarded by powerful ships of the Royal Navy. German sailors and officers manning the ships were kept under strict controls. Attempts were made to prevent ships from communicating with each other, as the Royal Navy feared the German officers would scuttle their ships before they ever handed them over to the British authorities. Morale on the German ships was low, and in keeping with the revolutionary spirit at home, there was a mutinous feel through the lower ranks of German navy. No doubt this developed from the orders to go on suicidal attacks on the Royal Navy in 1918, which in turn opened the door to radical political thoughts amongst the sailors. The German officers had a hard time keeping basic discipline in place.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/29/2023 8:21:08 PM
Magical place, the Orkneys, don’t you think, Colin? History far beyond Scapa and the RN placement of the Home Fleet. I spent hours in and around St. Magnus’ Cathedral – found a death marker in the nave containing one of my daughter’s name, Elspeth – as well as a good day’s guided tour of the ancient sites; Scapa was just a minor stop for us, because of time contraints. Did you get to see the Italian Church?

I doubt I’ll ever get back there, at my age. But I would hope everybody gets a chance – at least once in their lifetime – to visit that magical place.

We – my travel buddy and I – were there in early May. Late dawn even then (IIRC about 8:30), and very cold for the season (~6° C). But worth every bit of the effort to get there and survive the cold. I simply wish we had had more time there!

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 5:25:07 AM
Hi Brian,

Yes, the Orkneys are truly a magical place. Like you, I only briefly checked out Scapa Flow and the submarine barriers. I did manage to get a visit in to the Italian Chapel, where I berated a tourist for touching the walls (there are lots of signs saying not to do so but people gonna people, I guess). The main focus of my visit was seeing family (I have long-lost cousins up there) and checking out the neolithic sites. Skara Brae is a site beyond wonder; every school in the UK should be visiting there.

I also enjoyed the numerous standing stones and circles, plus I treated myself to a 'mini-keg' (about 8 pints / 5 litres) of one of the local ales from the Orkney Brewery shop in Kirkwall. I'm saving that for Christmas. My favourite moment was standing on the cliffs at Yesnaby, where if you looked directly north the next stop would be the Arctic Circle. North West to the Faroes and North East to Shetland. Proper 'end of the earth' stuff. A good spot for contemplation.

Our weather was fabulously mild; 15C and sunny in the afternoon on the Saturday (first full day, having arrived on Friday night) but cooler, with bursts of rain, on the Sunday. The journey over was a bit ropey but a swift pint steadied my nerves. The journey back to the mainland on the Monday was windy but clear, so we got good views of the 'Old Man of Hoy'.

We stayed on the Orkney mainland with my relatives, but will return some day to check out the other islands as there is still so much to see. The Orcadians are lovely people and genuinely happy to see and talk to you. I shall certainly be back; Brian, I hope you get the chance to return to a place with which you have clearly formed a special bond.

Cheers,

Colin

----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 6:36:31 AM
Colin,

Is it tue that there are still vestiges of a flourishing Bronze Age trading network in the Orkneys ?

I’ve read that it was a major hub in this respect, with surprisingly far reach, even to the Middle East .


Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 11:15:49 AM
Hi Phil,

Very much so, goods have been found in Orkney from across the British and Irish Isles, as well continental Europe and throughout the Mediterranean. We know that the Greeks were aware of the Orkneys, which probably gave the Romans the information needed to extract tribute from there when they circumnavigated Britain in the first century A.D. We also know that a high profile official from the Orkneys was present in south-east England when the gathered tribes of the Britons surrendered to the Emperor Claudius.

We also know that in the Bronze Age that the Orkneys were a great deal milder than now. The shore has since receded over time, but life at Skara Brae appears to have survived at least into the Bronze Age, overseeing a collective farmland and community that very much lived in harmony with nature. The reasons for abandonment are unclear, but I would think the declining agricultural output probably forced an end to this way of life.

Archaeologists now believe the stone altar in Stonehenge was quarried from somewhere far to the north, and not Wales as was previously believed. If I was a betting man, I would say there are good odds that the stone would have come from the Orkneys or Kilmartin Glen (see below). The Orkneys appear to have had a special, prominent place in the cultural and economic framework of pre-Roman Britain. I suspect we will never know for sure, but the prevalence and concentration of significant sites (perhaps matched on the British mainland only by Kilmartin Glen) suggests to me that the Orkneys could have been a place of pilgrimage for the old, pre-Christian religions of these islands.

Trading with visitors continues to this day; I picked myself up a very handsome wool hat made from the wool of sheep from North Ronaldsay. The kind older woman who sold me it was at great pains to let me know that this breed of sheep has a lineage pre-dates the Iron Age. Naturally, I had to buy one. Maybe she saw me coming! Either way, I am £30 lighter for the experience.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 11:54:54 AM
Quote:
Also today 10-30-95 Quebec almost breaks away from Canada!? How can this be? & A simple vote is a legal means to break.away?? Boy if it happened Canada would be fractured!??


The '95 referendum was the second referendum held in Québec as séparatiste governments sought permission from the people of Québec to leave Confederation. The'95 referendum was won by the "stay" side by the narrowest of margins.

The back story is that Québec had always felt different and isolated from the rest of Canada (ROC). They were concerned that their language was in danger of dying a slow death.
Québec politicians today often speak of the "Louisianization" of Québec, implying that the French language died in Louisiana because of a political situation that did not afford protection of the language. The two situations are not really comparable. Québec's population was far more homogeneous French than was that of Louisiana which experienced a mixture of several cultures and languages.

When the Pierre Trudeau government patriated our constitution in 1982 and added the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, there were many attempts to build unanimity toward the document. In other words, it was necessary to have all of the provinces sign on to the new constitution. Québec was always a stumbling block because it insisted that their province be seen as a "distinct society" within Canada.

In 1987 a conference was held at Meech Lake and the federal government and provinces hammered out what was called the Meech Lake Accord. The accord would have seen several federal powers devolve to the provinces and critically, Québec would be recognized as distinct. That concept was a difficult sell in the ROC and the accord never took hold. Quebeckers were insulted and the support for separatism increased greatly.

In 1992 the federal government gave it another try so that Québec would sign the constitution. Another conference was held in Charlottetown, PEI and the result was the Charlottetown Accord. This agreement involved greater decentralization with more power to the provinces. First Nations self government was addressed and several Senate and House of Commons reforms were a part of it. Once completed, the Accord was taken to the people of Canada who rejected it in a referendum. It would have been a comprehensive document dealing with many aspects of Canadian life and politics. But the people rejected it.

Québec saw this result as proof that they were unwelcome in Canada as part of the accord would have seen Québec acknowledged as a distinct society as they wished.

It is no coincidence that PM Brian Mulroney went down to defeat with the rejection of his initiative at Charlottetown. And in Québec a séparatiste government was brought back into power and the Premier of the province, Jacques Parizeau, declared that he would soon offer a referendum on separation or secession from Canadian Confederation.

The ROC didn't take this too seriously until the last few weeks prior to the referendum when Canadians from all over the country drove to Québec to attend rallies in support of the "NO" faction which wanted to reject the proposed referendum.

This was the question that Quebeckers were given,

Quote:
"Do you agree that Québec should become sovereign, after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership, within the scope of the Bill respecting the future of Québec and of the agreement signed on 12 June 1995?"


The question is and was considered ambiguous and all sorts of promises were made by the Parti Québecois including the fact that the new currency would still be the Canadian dollar.

By the time that the date of the referendum approached, the "YES" side had cut the lead of the "No" side to the point where the polls indicated that the contest was neck and neck. The Rest of Canada panicked. What would the loss of Québec mean? Where would the border be set? Why should they get any land that was transferred to them after Confederation?

I recall being very worried and breathing a sigh of relief when the "NO" side won the debate. The margin was less than a percentage point at 50.58%

Québec was subsequently recognized in Parliament as a distinct society but a raft full of reforms to how we do business in this country also ensued. It has not been recognized as distinct in the constitution though there are several provisions in the document that acknowledge the distinctive nature of this province.

The Supreme Court has ruled that no province may leave Confederation unilaterally and a process has been established for this to occur. The courts have said that should a province like Québec make it known that it wished to separate then a negotiation process must take place.

That process is laid out in an act of legislation commonly called the "Clarity Act". The single clause that is important is that only the House of Commons may determine whether a referendum question dealing with secession is sufficiently clear. The hope is to avoid an ambiguous question like the one that the Parti Quebecois foisted on the people in '95.

I hope that this post was enlightening if not too exciting.

Oh, last point. Quebeckers do not seem to be overly concerned with separation or sovereignty currently. They have passed laws, some of which I feel are unconstitutional, that give them extraordinary protections for their language and culture.

Cheers,

George



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 1:28:38 PM
Hi George,

The Quebec Independence Question, is not a pleasant one to contemplate. Canada with an independent Quebec, would leave a hole in Canada, on a map it would look ununified! It would leave 2 separate parts to your country, East, & West Canada? As an American we like to see our neighbors unified, however I will admit it's nice to visit Montreal, it's almost like visiting old world Paris?? I enjoyed the old world feel of it? Food & architecture especially!!

So glad united, is the trend of the day!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 2:52:22 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

The Quebec Independence Question, is not a pleasant one to contemplate. Canada with an independent Quebec, would leave a hole in Canada, on a map it would look ununified! It would leave 2 separate parts to your country, East, & West Canada? As an American we like to see our neighbors unified, however I will admit it's nice to visit Montreal, it's almost like visiting old world Paris?? I enjoyed the old world feel of it? Food & architecture especially!!

So glad united, is the trend of the day!?

Regards,
MD



It's not a simple debate. The First Nations living in Québec have told the Québec government, "not so fast". They claim that Québec doesn't speak for them and that their treaties are with the British crown or with Canada who has sworn to honour the other treaties.

There has been discussion about just how much land an independent Québec is entitled to. Québec claims that they would own everything that they have now but at the time of Confederation in 1867, Québec was much smaller. Most provinces had land added to them for administrative purposes.



Québec today. There is a big difference in size.



The big problem as I see it is that without a land corridor to the east coast we would have trouble keeping this country together. Even if Quebec only accepted its 1867 borders, the rest of us to the west still couldn't get to New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and PEI.

So there would be a demand for all land south of the St. Lawrence to remain in Canadian hands.

Just splitting the federal assets and debts would be a monumental task.

Hope it never happens.

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 7:30:02 PM
George, you have once again given a concise and (relatively) balanced of “the Night Canada almost died”.

I remember it much differently, I admit, though I’m speaking as a Canadian who at the time suddenly faced a nightmare. My interpretation of the referendum is that our federal governmen ignored the power and breadth of the sovereintist movement until it was almost too late. You mention folks flocking to Quebec to support the “no” side, though they had no voting rights in the matter. I remember hearing that the feds were subsidizing many trips to Quebec – by rail and air, from as far away as BC – in order to wave a flag in support of the existing Canadian nation. That was easily translated into “the feds have to pay us to show our loyalty!” – not a positive sign at all.

Like you, I sweated the results. I believe CBC ended the night’s coverage at 23:00 PST, and though it was tending towards a rejection of the referendum, it was still not decided at that time. It was only the next morning we heard Jaques Parizeau blaming the loss on the alophone community.

You talk about the wording of the instrument of the referendum, and I agree it was less than either/or. But I have never known an instrument that is not by nature ambiguous at best and more often misleading. If (When?) BC ever holds a referendum on secession, I would not vote without the same kind of ‘weasel room’ hinted at in the Quebec instrument. A union, after all, does not go on strike before telling its members what the bargaining issues will be, even if the membership has been grumbling for years.

It was a momentous moment, as we both recognize. Sadly, I’m not sure that Central Canada or the federal parties learned anything at all from how close the call was. Secessionist sentiments are present in Alberta and BC to this day, rather like a pandemic which never goes away; Quebec is not the only less than happy partner in our confederation.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 9:14:02 PM
Aw come on! George, & Brian,

Alberta & BC want to break away from the Dominion, sure, sure! Gee what are they going to do?? join the US!!?? ☺

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 9:28:47 PM
Hello Brian,

I do remember the efforts by the federal government to encourage us all to make our way to Québec to support the "No" side. The Parti Québecois were certainly upset about this initiative on the part of the feds though the PQ weren't above making questionable remarks and observations about what the new relationship with Canada would entail. At times Parizeau made it sound as though the transition to independence would be quite smooth and seamless. The continued use of Canadian currency and his claim that a Quebecker would be represented on the board of the Bank of Canada are but two examples.

Secessionist movements in Canada baffle me. I do not understand the level of discontent in parts of this country. As more and more powers have devolved to the provinces, it seems that national unity has been sacrificed. There is a reluctance to share in a provincial bounty as powers are guarded along with profits, and the federal government is painted as an ever greedy foe.

Witness current events in Alberta. Danielle Smith will introduce a bill to pull Alberta from the Canada Pension Plan, advertising to the people that there will be more money in each Albertan's pocket than if the province remains as part of the plan. No suggestion is made that participation in the plan is a boon to all Canadians including Albertans and that investment power is enhanced with contribution to the larger investment pool.

I shall be most disappointed should Albertans approve. For me, it would be a sign that Albertans fail to see the advantages of a national collective approach that has served us well in both good and bad times. It is a dangerous attitudinal change and perhaps a precursor to a stronger secessionist movement.

Sorry, rambling a bit off topic. Oh, one final thought: I note that the current crop of PQ separatists is careful to tell Quebeckers that they would have their own currency and a standing, peace keeping army should the province secede. Not stupid these people. They remember the things that upset and confused Quebec voters in '95.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/30/2023 10:36:17 PM
MD, you say:Quote:
Aw come on! George, & Brian,

Alberta & BC want to break away from the Dominion, sure, sure! Gee what are they going to do?? join the US!!?? ☺
That is one option, I guess. If it were the only option, I would vote against leaving Canada. I did say:
Quote:
If (When?) BC ever holds a referendum on secession, I would not vote without the same kind of ‘weasel room’ hinted at in the Quebec instrument. A union, after all, does not go on strike before telling its members what the bargaining issues will be, even if the membership has been grumbling for years.

The issue, IMHO, is that to an even greater degree than in the US, BC – a key province in the formation of Canada in 1867 – has a vastly different history and background than Upper and Lower Canada. For the most part, historically we share only a comment parent country. For both Alberta and BC, the economic roots work north/south. Cultural value work north/south. Alberta has less natural cultural or economic links with BC than with Texas; BC is in many ways culturally aligned with the US northwest than with Ontario or even Alberta, and its ports and resources are more affiliated with the Pacific Rim than with Central Canada.

I am not suggesting secession is a looming question in the West. And I am not in any way suggesting that joining the US is the only acceptable option. I’m merely noting that Canada’s federal government tends to read the tea leaves as found in central Canada. This almost broke up the country in 1995 with the Quebec referendum. The federal focus has worked to control future Quebec soverignty movements, but still ignores persistent rage in the West.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/31/2023 7:30:34 AM
Brian, what is at the root of this, "persistent rage in the west"? I see that there is fear in Alberta that the cash cow that is fossil fuels will disappear but there are also many Albertans who can see that their climate conditions have been altered and understand that they must seek alternative energy resources. But is that it for Alberta?

And what of BC? I agree that I may not relate to all of the issues that a BC native does but I still see BC as part of my homeland and I feel that I would be as comfortable there as I am here. Do the people of BC not feel the same?

I note as well that regionalism exists in the US and while there is much poking and anger from say the mid-west toward the northeast at times, there is little talk of secession, as if that would be tolerated. They maintain a nationalistic fervour which overrides states' rights. Now there are aspects of this brand of nationalism that are of concern but rarely a grass roots feeling that one is not an American first. Meanwhile, we here in Canada watch as provinces threaten to pursue independence.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/31/2023 12:32:14 PM
Today October 31, Halloween, this date chosen because its halfway between Fall Equinox, & Winter Solstice! BTW does your country do Halloween, or is it a US holiday leading to sugar highs, & cavities, situation only? Anyone?

With October gone, November 1, & 2, in World history!

Nov. 1, 1512 Michelangelo finishes the Sistene Chapel! I always thought it was the sixteen chapels, & he did a lot of art work on it? Now I got to rethink it!?? ☺ help?

1611 William Shakespeare's Tempest is played to great reviews!? I don't get it what makes this dude so great?? What say you??

11-1, 1952 the US tests Thermol nuclear bomb! Just what does that mean?? Anyone?

1776 the Stamp Act is enforced in the Colonies! Just another thing to piss off the future Americans!? Comments?

1994 NASA expands exploration towards the sun! Comments on the future of NASA it seems diminished lately? What say you?

11-2 in history,

1755 Marie Antoinette is born, how will she effect France, & their monarchy, government & is she the one who loses her head?? Anyone?

1889, both North, & South Dakota admitted as states!? Despite the low populations they are allowed 2 Senators each!? Does ths ussually secure power in the upper house??

BTW as far as Alberta , Canada wanting to break away from the Dominion, would you say they are like close US states, Montana, & the Dakotas, very conservative, not liking the Liberal Eastern part, as part of the argument? What say you, any comparisons??

1917 Britain seeks a home state for Jewish people in Palestine!? Is this fair?? Comments?

1936 the BBC comes into existence!? Is it fair balance news network!? What say you??

1949 Indonesia becomes independent from the Netherlands! Was there conflicts that led to this?? Anyone?

1983 President Reagan makes MLK Jr. Day a national holiday!? It did take away Presidents Day as a holiday, honoring Washington, & Lincoln?! What do you think about that??

2000 Russians come to the International space station! How many countries are still involved today?? Is your nation involved? Any good websites on it?

Any new topics?
Carry on!
Cheers,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
10/31/2023 2:51:26 PM
Quote:
BTW as far as Alberta , Canada wanting to break away from the Dominion, would you say they are like close US states, Montana, & the Dakotas, very conservative, not liking the Liberal Eastern part, as part of the argument? What say you, any comparisons??


Certainly there are similarities in climate and geography and the economy. Alberta has about 4X as many people as Montana. The population of Montana is 1.1 million while Alberta's population is 4.4 million.

But culturally, they aren't exactly the same. For one thing, there is a sizeable French language influence in the province that you probably would not find in Montana. There are nearly 130,000 Métis living in Alberta who strive to maintain their cultural and language. That language is Michif which is an amalgam of French and Cree. Alberta actually has a higher percentage of Métis than Saskatchewan or Manitoba, a fact which I find surprising.

EDIT: There is a Métis community in Montana. They moved down from Canada after the 1870 and 1885 rebellions in Canada. That Canadian government put down those rebellions and some Métis fled to the US.

There is a French campus of the University of Alberta too.

53% of the people of Alberta live in two cities, Calgary and Edmonton. We often think of Alberta as mostly rural but that has changed. Farming requires fewer labourers than it once did. About 24% of Alberta's population are visible minorities. This may be attributed to Canada's aggressive immigration policy.

In Montana, 85% of the people are Caucasian, a considerable difference from the situation in Alberta.

Still both probably share some resentment of the centres of political power in the east. Albertans have long complained that the large populations of Ontario and Québec determine the results of elections and some feel that that means that the federal government pays more attention to the needs and wants of those provinces.

I took a look at some data to determine just how conservative Albertans really are in comparison to some US states. Albertans are conservative by Canadian standards but we have nothing to compare to the conservatism demonstrated in parts of the US. If religion is examined, about 29% of Albertans are highly religious while in Texas that number balloons to 64%. 47% of Coloradans declare that they are highly religious. Now Massachusetts, an eastern state has 33% of its people claiming to be highly religious.

So if adherence to a religious faith is the only marker to measure the degree of conservatism (and it should not be the only marker) then it would appear that Alberta has more in common with Massachusetts than with other western states.

BTW, 64% of Montanans are absolutely certain that there is a god. Only 39% of Albertans make the same assertion. We often think of Alberta as Canada's hotbed of evangelicalism but can it compare fairly to states just south of the border?

Alberta and Montana developed differently under a different value system. In fact when traders from Montana were trying to exploit the territory that would become Alberta, the new Canadian government sent the Northwest Mounted Police out west to gain control of the territory. That meant expelling the whiskey traders out of Montana who were creating havoc among the First Nations populations. So both areas developed under different types of governments, one a republic, the other part of a Confederation governed using British values and institutions to support them.

So if I wanted to compare and contrast I would need a lot more information and a thoughtful set of criteria to complete the exercise.

Cheers,

George

Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
10/31/2023 3:37:47 PM
Quote:


Today October 31, Halloween, this date chosen because it’s halfway between Fall Equinox, & Winter Solstice! BTW does your country do Halloween, or is it a US holiday leading to sugar highs, & cavities, situation only? Anyone?



Far be it from me to say otherwise, but Hallowe’en was brought to North America by predominantly Irish and Scottish settlers who celebrated All Hallows Eve or All Saints Day. It’s probably from some distant pagan Celtic celebration, but anyone who says they can tell you its definitive history is definitely pulling your leg!

It’s still a big thing here in Scotland and throughout the rest of the UK and Ireland, I believe. We have lots of young ‘guisers’ who go from house to house seeking treats in exchange for reciting a joke or a song. I’m not sure what the Sassenachs over the wall do though!

It’s changed over the years, becoming more like what I imagine the North American kids might term ‘trick or treating’.

We used to carve out swedes or turnips (‘neeps’) to make Jack O’Lanterns; now we use pumpkins.

We used to dress in exclusively home made scary garb; now most costumes (guises) are shop-bought and basically fancy dress.

So few sing or tell stories now; now it’s a brief Googled joke and then out with the chocolate.

I can remember being a boy out with my pals and being invited into stranger’s homes to do our bit; that’s unthinkable now and most kids are escorted around by their parents.

How the times have changed and, on this occasion, I don’t think for the better.

Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
10/31/2023 8:14:41 PM
Hi Colin,

I always like seeing how other countries celebrate a holiday, especially old world areas like yours. The homes buildings, topography, are different, & much more they reflect the history. On, Just how different we are, & alike we are at the same time!? Sure like to visit Europe sometime? The US is so "plain jane" in a lot of ways!!?

Here I brought up Halloween being today, & then it was cancelled in my town, & area! We had a snowstorm, ( 1/2 meter of snow) & paired with a power outage just now, that trick or treating was cancelled! Worst Halloween ever!!

So much for taking our grandchildren out to get candy for the 1st time!? Actually the power just came on minutes ago, too late for trick or treating!?

Mother nature played tricks on the kids!

Too bad!
MD

Also, thanks George, for pointing out how Montana, & Alberta are mostly different!?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
10/31/2023 10:35:56 PM
“1936 the BBC comes into existence!? Is it fair balance news network!? What say you??”

Bad data, MD. The Beeb started in 1922 as the British Broadcast Company, changing its structure and name (to British Broadcasting Corporation) in 1927. The 1936 date marked the first television broadcast by BBC. It was not the first TV broadcast; I believe that honour goes to the US, sometime around July 1936. Germany too would provide at least local broadcasting for parts of the 1936 Berlin Olympics (in early August 1936), which also pre-dated the BBC’s broadcast. But IIUC the Beeb’s broadcast was part of the first attempt at establishing the concept of scheduled television presentation.

As to the quality of BBC production, at one time (I’m guessing, but I would say from the mid-30s to the mid-60s), at least the radio side of the Beeb was the best in the world, bar none. It was also the snootiest and the most highly controlled (not as to subject matter, but as to presentation, clarity, speech and the like). I assume at least partly because of the extent of the empire and commonwealth, the BBC World Service was available across the globe, on regular broadcast bands and/or through short wave, with fully staffed stations across the Empire/commonwealth. And – during the war – BBC became not just a trusted source of news across Occupied Europe but also a deliverer of information (both in clear and by code) to resistance fighters under the Nazi heel.

As British influence waned, so too did the BBC World Service. One of the last of its oversees broadcast locations was, IIUC, the BBC Middle East, located, I believe, in Aden. This station, I believe, relabelled itself as Al Jezeera, and with funding from local Emirates, continued broadcasting about the region across the world. Many fear or hate Al Jezeera as an Islamic propaganda machine, but it still provides news and assessments reminiscent of BBC World service.

All this is off the top of my head, and I’d be happy to have my facts corrected. But I’m not about to defend Al Jazeera’s editorial policy.

Cheers,
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/2/2023 9:29:37 AM
November 1, & 2, in World history!

Nov. 1, 1512 Michelangelo finishes the Sistene Chapel! I always thought it was the sixteen chapels, & he did a lot of art work on it? Now I got to rethink it!?? ☺ help?

1611 William Shakespeare's Tempest is played to great reviews!? I don't get it what makes this dude so great?? What say you??

11-1, 1952 the US tests Thermol nuclear bomb! Just what does that mean?? Anyone?

1776 the Stamp Act is enforced in the Colonies! Just another thing to piss off the future Americans!? Comments?

1994 NASA expands exploration towards the sun! Comments on the future of NASA it seems diminished lately? What say you?

11-2 in history,

1755 Marie Antoinette is born, how will she effect France, & their monarchy, government & is she the one who loses her head?? Anyone?

1889, both North, & South Dakota admitted as states!? Despite the low populations they are allowed 2 Senators each!? Does the scure power in the upper house? This time it didn't, the US houses flip flopped?? Why?

1917 Britain seeks a home state for Jewish people in Palestine!? Is this fair?? Comments?

1936 the BBC comes into existence!? Is it fair balance news network!? What say you??

1949 Indonesia becomes independent from the Netherlands! Was there conflicts?? Anyone?

1983 President Reagan makes MLK Jr. Day a national holiday!? It did take away Presidents Day as a holiday, honoring Washington, & Lincoln?! What do you think about that??

2000 Russians come to the International space station! How many countries are still involved today?? Is your nation involved? Any good websites on it? Is Russia despite its aggression still involved?? Comments?

Any new topics?
Carry on!
Cheers,
MD


& Brian, as far as BBC history, bad data! My bad!! Sorry!

Also I thought we had power, but it only lasted 2 hours, then went out again for a full day! Hence you haven't heard from me! 😑

And on another light, Bobby Knight, controversial Indiana Basketball coach passes away earlier today, at 83! He took the Hoosiers to 3 NCAA Basketball National Titles, but used harsh disciplinarian tactics! Like getting physical with his players, choking one led to his fireing!? What say you about him & his methods?? Anyone?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6507
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/2/2023 11:12:15 AM
Dave,

In your reference to The Balfour Declaration, you alluded to a home state for Jewish people.

The original document mentioned the word “ home” and avoided the word “ state”.

A very significant omission, I think.

It did, however, refer to a national home, which implies a studied ambivalence.

Why avoid the word “ state “ if you’re going to call it a “ national home” ?

This was , I reckon, principally a war measure, designed to gain a strategic advantage over the enemy rather than something inspired by an authentic sympathy for Jews. Much the same might be said of Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/2/2023 2:45:31 PM
Quote:
1776 the Stamp Act is enforced in the Colonies! Just another thing to piss off the future Americans!? Comments?


The British had spent a fortune in defeating the French during the French and Indian Wars. In doing so, they fulfilled their duty to the colonists but they also acquired a huge tract of land, the former New France. All that land to the west of the Appalachians and south to the Gulf of Mexico required an army to be maintained in North America. And so the British needed to raise money to offset the costs of the French and Indian Wars (part of the 7 years war) and to maintain the garrison in NA.

So no they did not impose the tax to "piss off" the British subjects in North America. There was a great difference of opinion over the need to consult the colonies when legislation affecting them was enacted. The British felt that it was the British Parliament that would pass laws that affected life in the colonies. The Declaratory Act of 1766 asserted that Parliament had absolute power to make laws that altered colonial government. Even after the repeal of the Stamp Act, the Declaratory Act was still in effect.

The colonists made much of this business of taxation without representation but it seems true that they did not feel compelled to support the armed forces stationed in North America that had protected them. Also true that the British wished to regulate immigration to the Ohio Valley area which they had earmarked as a homeland for First Nations allies. That would require troops and garrisons must be financed somehow.

I feel that the real problem was that the British had taken a mostly hands off approach to the colonies for nearly a century. They had allowed them, within reason, to govern themselves and to levy taxes with legislation in their own legislative assemblies, and the Sugar Act and Stamp Act certainly shocked the colonies. It was not the way that things had been done for so long.

The response shocked the British. They had no idea that there would be such a negative and sometimes violent response.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/2/2023 9:03:59 PM
Quote:
Dave,

In your reference to The Balfour Declaration, you alluded to a home state for Jewish people.

The original document mentioned the word “ home” and avoided the word “ state”.

A very significant omission, I think.

It did, however, refer to a national home, which implies a studied ambivalence.

Why avoid the word “ state “ if you’re going to call it a “ national home” ?

This was , I reckon, principally a war measure, designed to gain a strategic advantage over the enemy rather than something inspired by an authentic sympathy for Jews. Much the same might be said of Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation.

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil,

I never. quite looked at it that way?

Good perspective,
Cheers,
MD





Also George,

Nice take on the conflict over the Stamp Act, from both sides!?

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/3/2023 6:48:42 AM

Moving on to Nov. 3, & 4, in this day in World history!

November 3rd events below!??

1793, Steven Austin the founder of Texas is born! Anyone on this great Texan, who has a city named after him!?

1903 Panama declares independence from Columbia!? Did the US stay out of this conflict? Comments??

1956, the Wizard of Oz Premiers on TV! You had to love it as A youngster!? I loved the Cowardly Lion, " I tried counting sheep, but I'm afraid of them"!? What's your favorite part?? Anyone??

1956 the Soviet s Sputnik, launches the 1st living creature, A dog into space! Was this humane? What say you on using animals?? Later they used chimpanzees!???

1998 A large section of the Great wall of China is discovered!? Did the Great wall actually keep invaders out?? What say you?? Can it be seen from space??

Let's move on to November 4th!?

1842 Abe Lincoln marries Mary Todd Lincoln! Comments on this 1st Lady!? Anyone??

1922 British Archeologists Howard Carter discovers the Tomb of King Tut! Later members of his party mysteriously die!? Did the tomb have curses?? What say you??

1979 the Hostage crisis in Iran begins!? How did that play out? Anyone??

On this day 1980 Reagan, & 2008 Obama become Presidents! Back then this could happen peacefully! ? Wishing for more peaceful transitions of power in the future??

Peace, & regards,
MD

Any new events, or past ones?? Anyone?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
This day in World History! Continued
11/3/2023 9:48:59 AM
" On this day 1980 Reagan, and 2008 Obama become Presidents! Back then this could happen peacefully!? Wishing for more peaceful transitions of power in the future??

Well Dave, "back then" we had this thing called "election day." Not election month. We didn`t have early voting BEFORE debates were aired. We didn`t have absentee ballots just sent to every address...rather than to those who request a ballot...and sign for it. Vote by mail was called by Jimmy Carter at one time to be an easy route to vote fraud.

Just this week, a Judge overturned a mayor`s election because of video evidence of "ballot stuffing" and fraud, ( one of his supporters in the government was caught stuffing ballots into drop boxes, and giving ballots to others to stuff in boxes...the law states such absentee ballots can only be put into drop-offs by the voter themselves, not others.)

Why would anyone interested in "peaceful transfers of power" promote the use of things that an election observer like Carter would say was an invitation to vote fraud.

In order to have respect for elections...there must be trust in the voting process. You can`t stop vote counts...then kick out the press and election observers...then begin vote counting ( as was done in Fulton County) and have people believe there are no shenanigans taking place.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/3/2023 1:11:34 PM
I think that we should avoid this topic, Morris. Nothing good will come of it on this forum.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/3/2023 1:45:56 PM
Sorry guys,

Just a personal wish by me I guess, I just want a peaceful transfer of power, what ever it takes!?

My bad, politics are taboo!

Peace
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8310
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/4/2023 9:42:46 AM
Also on 11-4; 1942, the second battle for Alamein goes for the Allies! Comments welcome!?

1862 the Gatling gun is patented, these machine gun types would change warfare, in a deadly bloody way!?

1864 the Rebs assault Johnsonville, Tennessee! Who won this strategic battle of the CW, anyone??

1921 Hitler forms the "Brown Shirts"! Basically a group of thugs to do his bidding!? What say you??

1960 the Leakey's discover a humanoid bones in Olduvai Gorge, Africa, oldest human remains ever found! What does this mean historically & archeologically?? What say you??

Comments, & Regards,
MD

BTW these are all new topics.
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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