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Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/4/2023 8:27:53 PM
Quote:
1960 the Leakey's discover a humanoid bones in Olduvai Gorge, Africa, oldest human remains ever found! What does this mean historically & archeologically??


The Leakeys’ discovery was spectacular, in that it drew much-needed attention to the African Continent as the birthplace of humanity – a concept which for a host of cultural, racial and other reasons was not a popular idea. The Leakey discovery of 1960 received a huge boost from African Genesis, Robert Ardrey’s astoundingly popular book of “pop” archaeology (1961).

Don’’t remember about the significance of that 1960 Leakey announcement in the long term. There was much earlier work out of Africa, particularly that of Raymond Dart as early as 1925 or so, though the Leakey name and reputation was probably a key to the beginning of Afrocentric studies. And for some reason, the Leakey discoveries (with Ardrey’s help) set of a decade’s worth of non-professional interest in humanoid ancestry. They have been fed by a surprising number of books written for popular consumption. Desmond Morris’ Naked Ape (1967?) was hugely successful. Elaine Morgan’s Descent of Women was wittier, more demanding and feminist. They were just a couple of the volumes that drew and held peoples’ interest in our common human ancestry. The most recent study I have been entranced by (and it it close to 30 years old) is Alan Walker and Pat Shipman’s Wisdom of the Bones: In Search of Human Origins” (1996). It too begins with a Leakey discovery in 1984 (and in/near Olduvai) of an almost complete single skeleton of a 1.5 million-year-old teen male.

IIUC, much about everything originally argued by Lewis Leakey has now been discarded as more and more finds occur. But the Leakey reputation remains high, and their place both in Kenyan culture and in the areas of archaeology and paleontology are still sound.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/4/2023 8:49:21 PM
New topics moved to new page for easy responses!
Quote:
Also on 11-4; 1942, the second battle for Alamein goes for the Allies! Comments welcome!?

1862 the Gatling gun is patented, these machine gun types would change warfare, in a deadly bloody way!?

1864 the Rebs assault Johnsonville, Tennessee! Who won this strategic battle of the CW, anyone??

1921 Hitler forms the "Brown Shirts"! Basically a group of thugs to do his bidding!? What say you??

1960 the Leakey's discover a humanoid bones in Olduvai Gorge, Africa, oldest human remains ever found! What does this mean historically & archeologically?? What say you??

Comments, & Regards,
MD

BTW these are all new topics.





Hi Brian,

I remember watching the Leaky's finds, at Olduvai Gorge, with my late father, John, on the National Geographic Show. It was one of our favorite tv programs, Really amazing when artists with clay were able to recreate just what this 1st humanoid looked like! I found it solumn, educational, & somewhat scary! We also liked the Joques Cousteau show on underwater archeology, I remember the Catchy jingles on both shows. Great shows, & Great memories with Dad.

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
11/4/2023 8:54:01 PM
Annual leave while stationed in Sicily. Me and three friends drove to Cape Town from Cairo. Stopped at Olduvai on the way south. I could smell the history. Return trip along the west coast of Africa until we turned due north to hit Timbuktu. (I would have never forgiven myself for being that close and not visiting the apex of "where the hell am I" towns.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 8:23:55 AM
Wow OP,

Being at Olduvai, & Timbuktu. You sound like Indiana Jones! ☺

What visual memories, you must have!?

Regards,
MD

On another note today in the states it was daylight savings morning, where we turn the clocks back an hour! Does your country or area do this? & do you like it?? Comments?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 11:51:02 AM
11-5 in world history,

1492 Christopher Columbus learns how to grow corn, from his native American friends, corn, which actually is a grass!? How did this 1 crop.affect history?

1854 the British defeat 50K Russians at Inkerman, any more on this battle?? Anyone?

1873 John A MacDonald resigns as PM of Canada, how was his forced out?? What say you?

1912 Woodrow Wilson is elected US President, why is he looked down upon today?? Anyone?

1940 FDR is elected for a third term, is it good they did away with that, third terms? Anyone?

1944 Canadian troops liberate Dinteloord, what's up with that??

1976, new MLB franchise Toronto Blue Jays fill.their roster. How exciting was this for Canada!?

All new events,
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 1:15:46 PM
Quote:
1944 Canadian troops liberate Dinteloord, what's up with that??


When the troops entered the village is wasn't to the sounds of joy at liberation that they were used to. The town had been bombed and strafed by RAF Spitfires and Typhoons the day before. The Canadians had reported that there were Germans in the town and there were. So they requested tactical air support and it destroyed Dinteloord.

From what I have read the first troops to enter Dinteloord on Nov. 5 were actually British under command of the Canadian Army.

Apparently 50 Dutch people died. Others were wounded and many people were unhappy. Church towers and water towers were targeted as they were often used as observation posts.





I recall reading in one of my books that in most cases the Canadian Army would restrict the use of artillery and bombing in Dutch towns and cities but not always. If there were significant numbers of Germans intending to resist then artillery and aerial bombing would be used. German towns and cities were not given the same consideration.

Collateral damage. I hope that when they though about it later, the people of Dinteloord could appreciate the fact that they had been liberated on that day.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 4:02:03 PM
Quote:
1976, new MLB franchise Toronto Blue Jays fill.their roster. How exciting was this for Canada!?


Pretty exciting for Toronto. I don't know about the rest of the country in the early days. The Montréal Expos were the first MLB team to play in Canada so it wasn't new to us. But Toronto had pined for major league baseball. They had stopped supporting Triple A in the International League but baseball was immensely popular in Toronto and Canada. It had been played in this country for as long as it was played in the US. The town of Beachville in Ontario claims to be the first place in North America to play an organized game of baseball with two local counties going at it. That was 1838.

Anyway, I was pumped enough to get seats for game 2. It was played in the old Exhibition Stadium park and there was snow in the air and it was cold. The bench seats were aluminum and they seemed to transfer the cold quite well.

It was April 7 of 1977 and the wind whips in off Lake Ontario. The temperature was just above 0 C. I wore a parka and a toque and heavy mitts. Some of those southern boys on the diamond must have thought that they had been banished to hell. It was worse the day before when snow accumulated on the field. The truth is that they should have cancelled the series but there was no way in hell that they were going to do that.

Two bats and a pair of shin guards and you can cross country ski in Toronto in April.



Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 4:27:59 PM
Quote:
1873 John A MacDonald resigns as PM of Canada, how was his forced out?? What say you?


Sir John A. was our first Prime Minister in Confederation. He had made a lot of promises when negotiating with other colonies about amalgamation. One of those promises was that he would build a trans-continental railroad. The government had selected the company that would build the rail line but it was discovered that Sir John may have accepted bribes to encourage awarding of the contract.

The contract was awarded to a company owned by a Canadian named Sir Hugh Allan who, as the opposition Liberals discovered, was a big supporter of Macdonald's Conservatives. Macdonald and other Conservative cabinet ministers were accused of receiving funds to support their election. In those days there were no secret ballots and the Liberals said that Macdonald and the Conservatives used the money to bribe voters.

Building a transcontinental railway through Canada's Shield country was a daunting proposition. It was to be a much more difficult task than that which the Americans experienced. So there weren't too many bidders for the Canadian contract. One was a Canadian bid from Sir Hugh Allan and the other was by a Canadian who was tight with some wealthy American financiers. But these men wanted to build a great northern railway that would have made the Canadian line redundant. Sir John A. wanted assurance from Sir Hugh that there would be no collusion with the Americans.

Now Sir Hugh did collude with the US men and didn't tell Sir John. But it was the discovery that Sir Hugh had transferred over $350,000 to the Conservatives and a lot of it was US money that did Sir John A. in. The new country and the government did not want foreign nationals (read Americans) on the board of any company awarded the contract.

Macdonald had a disgruntled caucus and a slim majority. He realized that he likely could not retain the confidence of the House of Commons and so he resigned. He offered to resign his position as leader of the Conservative Party but they wanted him to stay.

An election was called in 1874 and the Liberals won handily by a big majority. But Sir John wasn't finished. In 1878 the Conservatives won the federal election and Sir John A. was asked to form the government once again. He remained Prime Minister of Canada until his death in 1891.

Sir Hugh Allan's company never did start the railway. The contract was granted to another company.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 8:48:42 PM
Quote:


Two bats and a pair of shin guards and you can cross country ski in Toronto in April.



Cheers,

George





Hi George,

They also could double as snow shoes!?

Also what was the coldest opening day for the Toronto Blue Jays??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 8:56:53 PM
Quote:
1873 Sir John A MacDonald PM of Canada!

Sir John wasn't finished. In 1878 the Conservatives won the federal election and Sir John A. was asked to form the government once again. He remained Prime Minister of Canada until his death in 1891.

Cheers,
George



So George,

JA MacDonald was PM twice, & actually for quite some time!? He had to do some things right???

So, What would you say was his legacy?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 9:27:40 PM
Quote:
Hi George,

They also could double as snow shoes!?

Also what was the coldest opening day for the Toronto Blue Jays??


I'm not sure but their very first game was at 0 Celsius. To tell you the truth, nobody even thinks about it today because they play in the Sky Dome. Weather conditions are always perfect and have been since 1989 when the Jays played there first game there.

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/5/2023 9:35:01 PM
Quote:
So George,

JA MacDonald was PM twice, & actually for quite some time!? He had to do some things right???

So, What would you say was his legacy?

Regards,
MD


Sir John A. was a high ranking politician in Canada West (Upper Canada) before Confederation. He worked tirelessly to bring about Confederation and to convince the leaders of other colonies that amalgamation was the best route for all of the colonies and the best way to ensure the defence of Canada. There was a raft of Fathers of Confederation but none more important than John A. Macdonald. He cobbled together a country and built a railway and a strong Conservative Party. He was in charge when the country expanded and he managed to convince the Brits that Rupert's Land should be sold to Canada and not to US interests.

But he was also instrumental in setting up the residential school system for First Nations kids and we are just trying to come to grips with how negative that policy was for the FN and how it has damaged our relationship with the indigenous people. Unfortunately, this has become his defining policy and initiative and people are not interested enough to learn just how important he was to this country.

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/6/2023 2:16:43 AM
Hi Dave and George,

A brief comment about 5 and 6 November.

Inkerman : a battle of extreme bloodiness, one of the bloodiest fought by British soldiers in the century between Waterloo and the outbreak of WW1. The Russian attack, gaining initial surprise, was repulsed with an appalling loss of life on the Russian side. On reflection, I must add that Inkerman was THE bloodiest of all battles fought by British soldiers between 1815 and 1914.

The Canadian action at Dinteloord in 1944 strikes me as a timely reminder that on 6 November in 1917, the Canadian Corps had mounted the culminating attack at Passchendaele, that very name being a byword for the horror of war.

Editing: Passchendaele cast a long shadow over the senior officers of WW2 Commonwealth forces, many of whom had served there as junior officers in 1917. I wonder if this impinged on the Canadian commanders at Dinteloord , especially in view of the anniversary. It’s on record that General Freyberg, New Zealand commander at Monte Cassino in February 1944, requested that the beautiful Abbey there be pulverised by aerial bombardment. It was a terrible thing to do, and failed to make the task of the attacking infantry any easier : indeed, it actually aided the German defenders. When asked why he’d ordered this bombing to take place, Freyberg answered with one word : “ Passchendaele “.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/6/2023 8:25:14 AM
Quote:
Hi Dave and George,

A brief comment about 5 and 6 November.

Inkerman : a battle of extreme bloodiness, one of the bloodiest fought by British soldiers in the century between Waterloo and the outbreak of WW1. The Russian attack, gaining initial surprise, was repulsed with an appalling loss of life on the Russian side. On reflection, I must add that Inkerman was THE bloodiest of all battles fought by British soldiers between 1815 and 1914.

The Canadian action at Dinteloord in 1944 strikes me as a timely reminder that on 6 November in 1917, the Canadian Corps had mounted the culminating attack at Passchendaele, that very name being a byword for the horror of war.

Editing: Passchendaele cast a long shadow over the senior officers of WW2 Commonwealth forces, many of whom had served there as junior officers in 1917. I wonder if this impinged on the Canadian commanders at Dinteloord , especially in view of the anniversary. It’s on record that General Freyberg, New Zealand commander at Monte Cassino in February 1944, requested that the beautiful Abbey there be pulverised by aerial bombardment. It was a terrible thing to do, and failed to make the task of the attacking infantry any easier : indeed, it actually aided the German defenders. When asked why he’d ordered this bombing to take place, Freyberg answered with one word : “ Passchendaele “.

Regards, Phil


That is an interesting comment made by Freyberg, Phil. And I agree that many of those WW1 veterans in the Commonwealth armies must have determined that where possible they would use artillery to mitigate the losses to the infantry. As well, the British and Commonwealth armies in later 1944 were plagued by shortages in the ranks I believe. That would make it prudent to save as many lives as possible in operations.

Arthur Currie, commander of the Canadian Corps in WW1 was a great proponent of the use of artillery and he would lobby, as he did at Passchendaele, to collect as many guns as possible and to allow time for the gunners to plot their shoots. Currie was very concerned about sacrificing his men needlessly when there was a way to reduce casualties. Ironically, Currie was painted by enemies at home and even by some of his men as a butcher who sent his men into harm's way to further his personal glory.

When we were discussing the Battle of Passchendaele as it pertained to the New Zealanders, I did have the intention to follow up with a post on the Canadian and final phases of the battle. I have to think about how to go about it but today is the anniversary of the 3rd phase of the Canadian portion of the battle. Currie had planned four, "bite and hold" operations on different days and Nov. 6 was number 3 and the final phase on Nov. 10.

Cheers,

George


Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/6/2023 9:13:48 AM
Quote:
Hi Dave and George,

Passchendaele cast a long shadow over the senior officers of WW2 Commonwealth forces, many of whom had served there as junior officers in 1917. I wonder if this impinged on the Canadian commanders at Dinteloord , especially in view of the anniversary. It’s on record that General Freyberg, New Zealand commander at Monte Cassino in February 1944, requested that the beautiful Abbey there be pulverised by aerial bombardment. It was a terrible thing to do, and failed to make the task of the attacking infantry any easier : indeed, it actually aided the German defenders. When asked why he’d ordered this bombing to take place, Freyberg answered with one word : “ Passchendaele “.

Regards, Phil




Phil,

Did General Freyberg mean that he has learned from mistakes made in WWI or did he mean he was trying to avenge what occurred at Passchendaele? Or both??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/6/2023 9:25:59 AM
11-6 in World History, any comments on the following new topics??

1860 Abraham Lincoln elected 16th President of the US, many say he was America's greatest president! What say you??

1861 Jefferson Davis elected to a 6 year term as the Confederate President, why was he both loved & hated in the south?? Anyone?

1865 the CSA Shenandoah surrenders after sinking or capturing 37 Union vessels! How did they manage this incredible feat? Any articles videos, or websites on this very successful Rebel Raider? Did the British help with this ship as they did the CSA Alabama!? Comments??

1879 Canada celebrates its 1st Thanksgiving, any comments on how this holiday developed, & how big a celebration it is for our neighbors in the Great White North!?

1884 Montreal defeats the Toronto Argos in 1st Championship Football game in Canada! BTW the CFL playoffs are underway, can the 16 win Argonauts repeat as Grey Cup Champions? ( at Tim Hortons Stadium in Hamilton Ontario on November 19th, be there or be square!?) Gooooo Arrgooghs!

1917 Red October, how significant is this to Russia, & even the world!? What say you??

1956 Suez Crisis, what's the story of this, & who did it effect with its results?? Comments?

Lots of never discussed topics, have at em!!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/6/2023 11:01:10 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Dave and George,

Passchendaele cast a long shadow over the senior officers of WW2 Commonwealth forces, many of whom had served there as junior officers in 1917. I wonder if this impinged on the Canadian commanders at Dinteloord , especially in view of the anniversary. It’s on record that General Freyberg, New Zealand commander at Monte Cassino in February 1944, requested that the beautiful Abbey there be pulverised by aerial bombardment. It was a terrible thing to do, and failed to make the task of the attacking infantry any easier : indeed, it actually aided the German defenders. When asked why he’d ordered this bombing to take place, Freyberg answered with one word : “ Passchendaele “.

Regards, Phil




Phil,

Did General Freyberg mean that he has learned from mistakes made in WWI or did he mean he was trying to avenge what occurred at Passchendaele? Or both??

Regards,
MD


Good question, Dave !

It was the former. Before the Canadians finally took Passchendaele, the New Zealanders had tried in the middle of October, and their attack was murderously repulsed. It was - and still is- the worst day in New Zealand history. Freyberg believed that air power would save his troops from such a massacre. It’s very much to the fore of my mind that, as I write this, the Ukrainians are desperately in need of more aerial support as they struggle to deal with formidable Russian defensive positions. Some things don’t change.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/6/2023 5:49:13 PM
Good point Phil,

It's pretty hard to succeed in modern warfare, without controlling the sky's!

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/6/2023 9:58:05 PM
Almost forgot 11-6's events, a few more!?

1935 the first test flight of the RAF's Hawker Hurricanes how successful was this fighter for the RAF?? Comments, anyone??

1950 the Chinese offensive is halted in Korea! How fragile was the war with super powers the US battling the Red Chinese!? What is your perception?? Scary!? Anyone?

1999 the Australians vote to keep the British Monarchy as their head of state! Has any Commonwealth Nation ever voted against keeping British Royalty? How often are these votes?? What say you??

Cheers,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/6/2023 9:58:21 PM
Oops, D.
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/7/2023 7:41:30 AM
A nice perspective of events from Wazza of Oz, for this day in Oz history!! Comments, anyone?

Quote:
07 Nov 1917 - Capture of Gaza, Palestine by the Australian Mounted Division (soon after they would be ordered out of town so Lawrence and his Arabs could claim victory).

08 Nov 1917 - The battle of El Mughar, Palestine by the Australian Light Horse.

09 Nov 1914 - HMAS Sydney (1) destroys the German Cruiser Emden at the Coco's Islands. This will be the RAN's first ship to ship action at sea.

Regards,
Wazza.


Lets not forget the Aussies!
Thanks,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/7/2023 9:52:39 AM
Quote:
1935 the first test flight of the RAF's Hawker Hurricanes how successful was this fighter for the RAF?? Comments, anyone??


The Hurricane was used throughout the war even as a bomber. During the Battle of Britain it was responsible for more kills than the Spitfire although the Spitfire could operate at much higher altitudes.

According to the Imperial War Museum site, the Hurricane was responsible for more than half of the enemy aircraft destroyed in the Battle of Britain. It was a real workhorse and the first British fighter to fly at over 300 mph.

Here is a 13 minute video from the IWM on the Hurricane. Scroll down and click. Take note of how much easier it was to repair a Hurricane than a Spitfire. The Hurricane fuselage was covered in Irish linen

[Read More]

There were about 14,000 versions of the Hurricane built from 1937 to 1944. 1,451 of these aircraft were manufactured at the Canada Car and Foundry plant in Fort William (now Thunder Bay) in Ontario. When Britain grew fearful that the war was coming closer to its shores it asked the Commonwealth countries to take on the manufacture of military equipment. Canada geared up for many military items including the Hurricane.

Canada built some specialized marks including those that could handle the cold winter weather. Those Arctic condition Hurricanes came equipped with de-icers and skis as needed. While most of the Canadian made Hurricanes went to Britain, a sizeable number were shipped to the USSR and to India.



George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/7/2023 3:26:45 PM
The Hurricane was used throughout the war even as a bomber. During the Battle of Britain it was responsible for more kills than the Spitfire although the Spitfire could operate at much higher altitudes.

According to the Imperial War Museum site, the Hurricane was responsible for more than half of the enemy aircraft destroyed in the Battle of Britain.”

Couple of additional comments, George. The Hurricane was a more stable gun platform than the early Spitfires, at least in part because that beautiful Spitfire wing was too flexible to carry the chatter of eight MGs. Both a/c would, in later Marks, be able to carry heavier ordnance, but not the early Marks of either.

As to the number of a/c shot down, because of the better stability of the Hurricane when firing, they were sent against the Luftwaffe bombers. Their increased shots on target were more effective. Also, in the early weeks of the BofB, including the Kanalkampf, there were more Hurricanes than Spits, and much of the fighting was at lower elevations. Stukas, in particular, were easy prey for Hurricanes; keep the Spitfires for high cover, where the Bf-109s were waiting for an opportunity to pounce.

And, of course, there was Elsie MacGill, who led the design team at CanCar an put the Hurricane on skis. She has found her way onto the reverse of some 2023 Loonies.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/elizabeth-muriel-gregory-macgill

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/7/2023 5:46:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1935 the first test flight of the RAF's Hawker Hurricanes how successful was this fighter for the RAF?? Comments, anyone??


The Hurricane was used throughout the war even as a bomber. During the Battle of Britain it was responsible for more kills than the Spitfire although the Spitfire could operate at much higher altitudes.

According to the Imperial War Museum site, the Hurricane was responsible for more than half of the enemy aircraft destroyed in the Battle of Britain. It was a real workhorse and the first British fighter to fly at over 300 mph.

Here is a 13 minute video from the IWM on the Hurricane. Scroll down and click. Take note of how much easier it was to repair a Hurricane than a Spitfire. The Hurricane fuselage was covered in Irish linen

[Read More]

There were about 14,000 versions of the Hurricane built from 1937 to 1944. 1,451 of these aircraft were manufactured at the Canada Car and Foundry plant in Fort William (now Thunder Bay) in Ontario. When Britain grew fearful that the war was coming closer to its shores it asked the Commonwealth countries to take on the manufacture of military equipment. Canada geared up for many military items including the Hurricane.

Canada built some specialized marks including those that could handle the cold winter weather. Those Arctic condition Hurricanes came equipped with de-icers and skis as needed. While most of the Canadian made Hurricanes went to Britain, a sizeable number were shipped to the USSR and to India.



George



Hi George, & Brian,

Wow if most of the Canadian produced Hawker Hurricanes were produced at Thunder Bay, Ontario, on Northern Lake Superior. Very iffy weather, how did they get to Britain? Shipped via the Great Lakes ships, actually flown to their destinations, or by train, or another way??

What say you?
MD

Thanks for the great replies on the Hurricanes! Wonder if there are any Hawkers on the bottom of Lake Superior??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/7/2023 8:18:34 PM
Quote:
Hi George, & Brian,

Wow if most of the Canadian produced Hawker Hurricanes were produced at Thunder Bay, Ontario, on Northern Lake Superior. Very iffy weather, how did they get to Britain? Shipped via the Great Lakes ships, actually flown to their destinations, or by train, or another way??

What say you?
MD


Planes would be built then disassembled and crated and shipped by sea. Can Car shipped many airframes to Britain without the engines installed. Single engine planes like the Hurricane had to be transported in that manner.

Larger planes with twin or four engines, both US and Canadian built, could fly across from Newfoundland. Lord Beaverbrook who was a Canadian contacted the Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR) about taking on the role of administrator of a ferrying operation. Planes would assemble near Montréal, at an airport at St. Hubert. From there, pilots would fly planes to Gander, Newfoundland airport. From there the planes would be refuelled and that included extra fuel tanks. From there, small groups of planes led by a single, experienced navigator in the lead plane would take them to the UK.

Navigators were in short supply but as navigators graduated from the Commonwealth Air Training Plan, some were assigned to the ferry operations.

Of note, before the US got into the war it was selling planes to Britain. But the US was neutral and airplane companies were forbidden to fly planes to a belligerent country like Canada. Planes were flown to a place like Pembina, North Dakota and horses with wagons would drag them across the border. They would be flown across country to the assembly point at St. Hubert.

There were no military pilots from Canada to spare and many of the pilots who were ferrying these planes across the Atlantic were American civilians who came north for work. Some wound up as flying instructors in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan.

So the pilots and crew who ferried military aircraft to Britain via Newfoundland were all civilians. The first 7 planes flown were Lockheed Hudsons and the pilots were Australian, American and Canadian. It is odd that women pilots or crew were not welcome in this ferry operation. There were female pilots in Britain, including Canadians, who flew planes from factories and repair facilities to operational squadrons where military pilots would fight in them.

75 of these air crew lost their lives in subsequent flights of the ferrying initiative.

While the Hudson's were the first to go and successfully, by the end of the war all sorts of multi-engine planes made the trips. These included American built Consolidated PBY Catalinas and B-24 Liberators, Lockheed Venturas and Lodestars, Douglas DB-7 Bostons, Martin B-26 Marauders and A-30 Baltimores, North American B-25 Mitchells, Boeing B-17 Flying Fortresses, and Douglas DC-3 Dakotas. Canadian built Mosquitos and Lancasters also made the trip to Britain in this way.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/7/2023 8:43:43 PM
November 7, 1861, Union forces under Ulysses S. Grant overrun a Confederate camp at the Battle of Belmont, Missouri, but are forced to flee when additional Confederate troops arrive. So who won the battle, is this the beginnings of Grant's successes in the West?? Comments, anyone!?

What say you?
MD

BTW Great reply George, on how the Hawker Hurricanes made it to Britain, Perhaps some of the pilots who died transporting them by flying to Great Britain, lost their lives because of in experience!??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/8/2023 7:24:45 AM
Quote:
BTW Great reply George, on how the Hawker Hurricanes made it to Britain, Perhaps some of the pilots who died transporting them by flying to Great Britain, lost their lives because of in experience!??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."



Just to clarify, I don't believe that any single engine airplane could be flown from NFLD to Britain directly. I have read that some single engine planes were flown on short hops from Newfoundland, then to Labrador and then Greenland, Iceland and finally Great Britain. These short hop flights were initiated after the US entered the war and swung a deal with Denmark to let the US build air fields on Greenland. The British had already built fields in Iceland.

The British wanted to occupy Greenland but FDR protested that action as a violation of the Monroe Doctrine. Once in the war, US troops were sent to Greenland.

It was only multi-engine planes like Hudsons and Lancasters and Mosquitoes that could one hop flights and as I recall most had to be outfitted with auxiliary fuel tanks just to make it. During the initial flight of seven Hudson aircraft, the planes were outfitted with so much extra fuel that the pilots called them, "flying gas cans".

There were planes lost but the speed with which planes could be delivered to Britain made the risk acceptable to Britain.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/8/2023 8:19:41 AM
11-8 in world history,

1519 the Spanish meet the Aztecs, this is not going to turn out to good for the Aztecs! Comments?

1861 US ship boards the British Mail Steamer Trent, & sizes 2 Confederate diplomats! This almost leads to war between the US, & Britain!? Any details on how this all played out? Anyone??

1865, Post CW on this day, the KKK was formed, why was it so popular??

1901, Boer War in full force, how many of the various Commonwealth Countries were involved helping Great Britain? Really they had no quarrel with the Boers of South Africa, it must have been hard to go there and fight?? What say you? & how many casualties did each Commonwealth Nation have??

1900 David Beatty is promoted to Captain in the RN he will play a controversial role in WWI naval affairs! What was his command style, & it's effect in naval battles?? What say you??

1940 the RAF bombs Munich, Hitler swears revenge! Anyone have the details on this raid??

1962 the Canadian Government order the Nickel coin to return to a round shape! Why??

Just a few events from 11-8!
Comments & Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/8/2023 10:36:48 AM
Quote:
1962 the Canadian Government order the Nickel coin to return to a round shape! Why??


The 12 sided shape was introduce in war time (1942) because nickel was needed for military purposes. The Canadian mint used some sort of brass alloy to make the 12 sided, 5 cent coins and they weren't shiny like real nickel. So people could confuse the coin with the 1 cent copper cent because the colours were similar. The solution was to change the shape to differentiate the 5 cent from the round 1 cent coin.

1943 5 cent coin



Post war, the 5 cent coin could be made with real nickel but the mint found that metal difficult to work with as it would crack at stress points on the 12 sided design.

It took until 1962 to order the 5 cent coins to be rounded once again. Just a cost saving measure.

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/9/2023 7:07:11 AM
11-8 in world history, still open for posts!

1519 the Spanish meet the Aztecs, this is not going to turn out to good for the Aztecs! Comments?

1861 US ship boards the British Mail Steamer Trent, & sizes 2 Confederate diplomats! This almost leads to war between the US, & Britain!? Any details on how this all played out? Anyone??

1865, Post CW on this day, the KKK was formed, why was it so popular??

1901, Boer War in full force, how many of the various Commonwealth Countries were involved helping Great Britain? Really they had no quarrel with the Boers of South Africa, it must have been hard to go there and fight?? What say you? & how many casualties did each Commonwealth Nation have??

1900 David Beatty is promoted to Captain in the RN he will play a controversial role in WWI naval affairs! What was his command style, & it's effect in naval battles?? What say you??

1940 the RAF bombs Munich, Hitler swears revenge! Anyone have the details on this raid??

1962 the Canadian Government order the Nickel coin to return to a round shape! Why? Thanks for the 5¢ 's worth, George, ☺

Events from 11-8!
Comments & Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/9/2023 7:12:22 AM
Guys,

also lets check 11-9 in history! See below, & comment!?

1799 Napoleon siezes power after a coup in Paris! Why was the French military so pro Napoleon!? Anyone??

1888 Jack the Ripper, notorious serial-killer's murder spree comes to an end! How was he stopped!? Comments?

1922 Albert Einstein wins the Nobel peace Prize in Physics! Was All really as A genius as he is made out to be?? What say you??

1923 Hitler's attempts to take over the German Government are stopped,19 Nazis are killed! Adolf is imprisoned! Why wasn't this the end of his power hungry demented ways?? How did Hitler get out of this & still take over German leadership!? Websites, articles, videos, welcome!? Anyone??

Also today in 1938, an event involving the beginning of the end for Jews occurs in Germany, what was it?! Any takes on it??

1953 Cambodia becomes independent from France! Is this tied into the situation in Vietnam!? Then ultimately pulling the US in later?? What say you about Revolution in this area!? Comments??

1989, the opening of the Berlin Wall! What a great day for freedom loving Germans & Europeans!? The Soviet Union is beginning to falter!? What say you about how this event was achieved, & is Putin trying to revive the Soviet Union by taking the Ukraine!? Anyone??

Thanks, & Regards,
MD

BTW please continue with past discussions, especially the ones leading up to the 11-11 Armistice Day!? How were these final days of WWI!? Good discussion question!? Anyone??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/9/2023 9:30:09 AM
Quote:
1901, Boer War in full force, how many of the various Commonwealth Countries were involved helping Great Britain? Really they had no quarrel with the Boers of South Africa, it must have been hard to go there and fight?? What say you? & how many casualties did each Commonwealth Nation have??


Australia, Canada, India and New Zealand all sent troops. As well the British were aided by colonists in Africa, in Rhodesia and the Cape Colony and Natal.

Over 600 Australians died in this Second Boer War. They sent about 16,000 troops. Six Australians were awarded the VC in this conflict.

[Read More]

Canada sent over 7,000 troops and it was a difficult decision. French-Canadians and the large number of new immigrants from other countries could not understand why Canadians would fight and die in a British war of imperialism. But the government eventually acquiesced to the Anglo majority and initially raised a battalion of volunteers. All Canadians who fought in the Boer War were volunteers. 267 Canadians died over there. Four VC's were awarded to Canadians serving in Canadian units. Another Canadian serving in the British Army Medical Corps also won a VC.

[Read More]

New Zealand sent 6507 NZ troops served in South Africa. 230 died (71 killed in action or died of wounds; 26 accidental deaths; 133 died of disease. One VC was awarded.

[Read More]

I am a little foggy on India. I do not believe that they sent any combat troops but did send people to act as ambulance drivers, stretcher bearers and labourers. The stretcher bearers were Indians from Natal colony and they were led by Mohandas Gandhi.

Indian sources do say that the people that were sent were volunteers from the regular forces instructed to avoid direct combat roles.


Pretty sure that for Australia, Canada and New Zealand, the second Boer War was their first commitment to a foreign war. For Canadians, participation did a lot to further nationalism in the country and to see itself as very different from Britain.

I can't go without mentioning that thousands of woman and children on the Boer side were confined to concentration camps. Over 20,000 died and most were kids. It was a bitter pill for the Afrikaaners to swallow.

Cheers,

George







Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/9/2023 9:48:56 AM
Hi George,

Great reply on the influence of the Commonwealth troops & their casualties, in the Boer Wars! One of your better posts, I invite all MHO who are interested in the Boer Wars to check out your 3 "read more" sites! Were there public protests on the home front!?

Really all these casualties & anguish! & what did it really accomplish?? Thanks Imperial GB!? Comments?

Regards,
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/9/2023 10:04:47 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

Great reply on the influence of the Commonwealth troops & their casualties, in the Boer Wars! One of your better posts, I invite all MHO who are interested in the Boer Wars to check out your 3 "read more" sites! Were there public protests on the home front!?

Really all these casualties & anguish! & what did it really accomplish?? Thanks Imperial GB!? Comments?

Regards,
MD



There were protests in a lot of countries including the countries of Great Britain. Anti-imperialists existed throughout the imperial expansion period. The US saw considerable domestic unrest when it joined the imperialist club after the Spanish-American war.

The Canadian government was reluctant to send troops and PM Wilfred Laurier saw a great rift develop in his own cabinet. French-Canadian federal politicians knew which way the wind was blowing in Québec and were concerned that ordering or conscripting troops to go would be their downfall. And so the PM decided that if any Canadians wanted to fight, they would have to volunteer.

Canada didn't really have a standing army at the time but there was no difficulty in raising the first 1000 troops. And it wasn't much more difficult to raise more as the public demanded greater support for Britain. The same situation would arise in 1914.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/9/2023 11:37:59 AM
As far as volunteering in Canada to fight in South Africa. I don't get it? Leave great fishing, hunting, sports, & food in Canada to risk your lives for British Imperialism, in a country that doesn't concern Canada?? What say you?

BTW 2023 is a record year for warm weather in Canada, & the world! What's to be made of that?? Comments??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/9/2023 2:32:30 PM
Quote:
As far as volunteering in Canada to fight in South Africa. I don't get it? Leave great fishing, hunting, sports, & food in Canada to risk your lives for British Imperialism, in a country that doesn't concern Canada?? What say you?

BTW 2023 is a record year for warm weather in Canada, & the world! What's to be made of that?? Comments??

Regards,
MD


Dave,

A large number of Canadians who enlisted had been born in Britain. They wanted to help The Mother Country.


Regards, Phil

----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/9/2023 7:28:09 PM
Quote:
Quote:
As far as volunteering in Canada to fight in South Africa. I don't get it? Leave great fishing, hunting, sports, & food in Canada to risk your lives for British Imperialism, in a country that doesn't concern Canada?? What say you?

BTW 2023 is a record year for warm weather in Canada, & the world! What's to be made of that?? Comments??

Regards,
MD


Dave,

A large number of Canadians who enlisted had been born in Britain. They wanted to help The Mother Country.


Regards, Phil



Yes, indeed. Even at the beginning of WW1 most of the volunteers were English born. It wasn't until near the end of the war that the number of Canadian born in the Canadian Corps rose to 51%.

It was a nation of immigrants with Britons making up the largest percentage of new Canadians.

Canadians were proud to be Canadians but saw no problem or conflict in celebrating being a country that was part of the British Empire. Not all Canadians of course and that was the root of the conscription crisis of 1917. The country had just under 8 million people in 1914 and 30% of those were French and they did not share the same emotional bond with Britain that the English speakers did.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 5:10:11 AM
George, and Dave,

The diaspora of imperial support in WW1 was phenomenal: something worthy of much study in its own right, I reckon.

Here I allude not just to British born soldiers of the Dominions, the Colonies and Crown Dependencies of the Empire.

There were Germans in the United States who returned to fight for the Kaiser. I’ve lost count of the anecdotes of British soldiers encountering Germans fluent in English who’d been working as barbers, bakers, butchers and waiters in London and elsewhere and who had abandoned Britain to serve Germany in 1914. This certainly happened in the Christmas Truce of 1914, and occurred thereafter in various circumstances.

As far as Canadians are concerned, George, if French Canadians were prone to eschewing service in the British Empire forces, didn’t they opt to join up in the French Army. The Foreign Legion, perhaps?

One of the most remarkable stories I know concerns an ardent Irish Nationalist who loathed British rule so much that he actually became a gun smuggler and was organising an armed uprising in the febrile atmosphere before the outbreak of the Great War in 1914. This man was a well to do Anglo Irish barrister with political connections. He was not even a Roman Catholic, so he defied caricature. He was present in Belgium on one of his forays to solicit armed support from the continent when he was caught up in the German onslaught and violation of Belgian neutrality.

This was a Damascene moment for him. What he witnessed in terms of German atrocities shocked him so profoundly that he abandoned his crusade and joined the British Army ! He stated that British wrongs in Ireland were as nothing compared with what he saw the Germans doing. He was promoted rapidly to the rank of Captain and was killed in action in July 1916 in the Battle of the Somme.

I cite this story with the mortifying admission that I cannot remember his name. I’ll rectify that as soon as possible.

The story also serves to illustrate how profound the conviction was among people throughout the English speaking world that Germany had crossed the line and had administered a massive affront to the standards of civilised conduct and International Law.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 7:51:53 AM
Quote:
As far as Canadians are concerned, George, if French Canadians were prone to eschewing service in the British Empire forces, didn’t they opt to join up in the French Army. The Foreign Legion, perhaps?


No, they did not, Phil. French-Canadians were not particularly enamoured of France, at least not sufficiently to warrant leaving Canada to head to France to enlist. There was resentment of France for what was perceived as abandonment in 1759/60 with the defeat on the Plains of Abraham.

There are modern historians who will claim that the French-Canadians have been treated harshly with regard to their eagerness to participate in Canada's wars. Often quoted is the figure of 35,000 representing the number of French-Canadians who volunteered for active service. This was based upon a study completed by American historian Elizabeth Armstrong in 1937. Canadian historians have been using that figure for generations and with that is associated the impression of the French as slackers.

More recent work indicates that Armstrong was well off with her numbers and she admits that she only concentrated on the actual province of Québec and we know that thousands of French speakers live in all parts of Canada.

The study that I shall provide below estimates that of the 627,586 enlistees found in the archival records of the Library and Archives Canada database, over 75,000 were French speakers. It is difficult to determine from names whether a soldier was French-Canadian or not. Even today there are Canadians with names like Page or Macdonald who speak only French because of the mixing of cultures.

The author did find that French-Canadians did enlist at a rate lower than English speakers but still at a rate much higher than previously noted.

Henri Bourassa was a political leader in Québec during WW1 and he was adamantly against conscription. When asked why French-Canadians were enlisting at a lower rate, he said in 1916:

Quote:
“In short,English-speaking Canadians enlist in much smaller number than the newcomers from England, because they are much more Canadian; French-Canadians enlist less than English-Canadians because they are totally and exclusively Canadian.”


Bourassa was correct. Canadian born men enlisted at a far lower rate than did English born Canadians.

The author of the study attempted to explain the reasons for lower enlistment and they are:

1. French-Canadians had little connection to either England or France. Many could trace roots in Canada back two centuries or more and given the insular nature of Québec, they would have never been a part of the culture of France nor would they have even met a person from France.

2. Sam Hughes, the minister who established the Canadian Expeditionary Force was anti-Catholic and anti-French-Canadian. When volunteers assembled at Valcartier in Québec, non-English speakers were rejected. The war would be fought in the English language and many of the French-Canadians who showed up simply left when they could not understand simple instructions, all given in English. One in four Francophone volunteers was rejected. Contrast that with the 1 in 12 rate of rejection for all others. They weren't made welcome in the initial days of the war.
Of course, rejection of candidates was a luxury that could only be afforded at the beginning of the war. It wouldn't be long before standards were lowered but the fact is that Francophones were rejected three times more often than Anglophones.

And so many French-Canadians waited for conscription which was fought bitterly and at times, violently, in the Province of Québec. Half of the 75,000 Francophones in the study from which I have quoted were conscripts. The study also shows that the list of conscripts includes many Anglophones as well, mostly Canadian born. When we compare the enlistment rate of Francophones, all of whom were born in Canada, with that of Anglophones born in Canada we see that the comparison is much more favourable to the Francophones than a simple record of numbers. Francophones comprised 24% of all enlistees born in Canada then, which is closer to their percentage of the population of 30% in 1914.

The CEF numbers were bolstered by immigrants from Britain. Some had been in Canada for a short time while others came as children. Their bond with the mother country was stronger than that of the Canadian born.

The study was published in the Canadian Military Journal of the Canadian Forces

[Read More]

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8302
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 8:17:45 AM
George, & Phil,

Interesting perspectives on the backgrounds of Canadians & their reasons for fighting for the British in the wars mentioned! Phil you mentioned some even fighting for the enemy. Here in the US we had the Pros German movement called the Bund, Nazis in America, they were scary!? & in the Book, & Movie "Reds", it tells the true story of an American enamorated with the Communist Revolution in Russia. He went there to take part, & in the end became disalusioned. So it happens everywhere, it just depends on the scale??

Good points, continue the discussion?

Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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