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Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 8:20:00 AM
Guys,

Anymore takes on 11-9 in history! See below, & comment!?

1799 Napoleon siezes power after a coup in Paris! Why was the French military so pro Napoleon!? Anyone??

1888 Jack the Ripper, notorious serial-killer's murder spree comes to an end! How was he stopped!? Comments?

1922 Albert Einstein wins the Nobel peace Prize in Physics! Was All really as A genius as he is made out to be?? What say you??

1923 Hitler's attempts to take over the German Government are stopped,19 Nazis are killed! Adolf is imprisoned! Why wasn't this the end of his power hungry demented ways?? How did Hitler get out of this & still take over German leadership!? Websites, articles, videos, welcome!? Anyone??

Also today in 1938, an event involving the beginning of the end for Jews occurs in Germany, what was it?! Any takes on it??

1953 Cambodia becomes independent from France! Is this tied into the situation in Vietnam!? Then ultimately pulling the US in later?? What say you about Revolution in this area!? Comments??

1989, the opening of the Berlin Wall! What a great day for freedom loving Germans & Europeans!? The Soviet Union is beginning to falter!? What say you about how this event was achieved, & is Putin trying to revive the Soviet Union by taking the Ukraine!? Anyone??

Thanks, & Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 8:33:41 AM
Also I would be remiss if I didn't mention today is the anniversary of the sinking of the huge ore tanker, Edmond Fitzgerald, lost the entire crew of 29, on Lake Superior, in a big storm in 1975! Famous song written & preformed by the late great Canadian artist Gordon Lightfoot! Comments welcome?

Also on 11-10-1871, in history, Stanley encounters the lost Dr. Livingstone, why is this event so famous?? "Dr. Livingstone I presume!!? Anyone?

1926, Vincent Massey, the 1st Canadian Minister to the US! What took Canada so long?? What say you?

Also contemplate those soldiers fighting in Europe WWI who lost their lives on the last day of the war, how tragic for them? Comments, with Armistice Day being tomorrow!? Anyone??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 9:35:21 AM
Quote:


Really all these casualties & anguish! & what did it really accomplish?? Thanks Imperial GB!? Comments?

Regards,
MD



Hi Dave,

The second Anglo-Boer War has complex roots, but the short story is the British used the pretext of foreign nationals (Uitlanders) living in the Transvaal and Orange Free State of being denied the vote to try and force an annexation of both Boer republics into the wider British South African territories. The Boers had shaken off annexation in the previous war of 1881 and were newly rich with an endless supply of diamonds and gold to fund their own ventures. Some of this money was invested in new weaponry, such as the Mauser rifles (a similar model to that used by the Spanish to great effect at San Juan Hill in Cuba against the relatively poorly-armed US regular and volunteer forces) and Krupp field and siege artillery which outranged and outgunned most the British Army's artillery at the time (the army was eventually forced to borrow 4.7" guns from the navy to match the range). The Boers rejected the British ultimatum of effective annexation and declared war, but missed the excellent opportunity of sweeping the British garrisons into the Cape Colony before reinforcements could be sent from Britain. The Boers dithered and settled down into ineffective sieges of Mafeking, Kimberley, and Ladysmith.

At the start of the war, the British regular garrison numbered no more than 20,000 effectives against around 30,000 men mobilised by the Boer republics into Commands. The largest British force centred in the area around Ladysmith under George White, a weak and indecisive man who, against orders and advice, pushed his forces over a very decent defensive position on the Tugela River towards the Boer forces. The early set piece battles went alright for the British, although they did suffer heavy casualties storming entrenched Boer positions. Once the bulk of the mobile British forces were tied down in sieges (White having lost his nerve in failing to cut his way out), the relief forces under Sir Redvers Buller had to fight their way on several fronts to try and relieve them. This was precisely the opposite of the pre-war strategy of moving Buller's 50,000 1st Army Corps as a single force into the republics and forcing a decisive battle, which the Boers could not hope to win (in open battle, anyway). Buller broke his force into three chunks, with smaller forces sent off to relieve Mafeking and Kimberley whilst he took the main force to fight his way into Ladysmith. This was a grueling task, and his army suffered several defeats trying to cross the Tugela River, culminating in 'Black Week' of late 1899 (November, I think), where Buller's forces were repulsed on all three expeditions.

The British Government, sensing a humiliating defeat and need to discuss terms, sent more forces under Lord Roberts to South Africa, drawing on regular garrisons and Imperial forces from across the Empire. The British Army was chronically short of mounted troops, which the Canadians, Rhodesians, Australians, and New Zealanders were able to offer in quality, if not quantity. Roberts relieved Buller as overall CinC, but left Buller in charge of the hardest task of fighting through the hills at the Tugela River. The British forced their way across a range of hills that included Spion Kop, where the British entrenched in the dark only to realise at dawn that their position was overseen and flanked by the Boers on higher ground. A bloodbath followed and Buller was again forced to retreat across the Tugela.

Elsewhere, Roberts made steady progress with his concentrated forces, relieving the various sieges as he pushed onto the Transvaal. Buller finally defeated Louis Botha and relieved Ladysmith, where the garrison was down to quarter rations (less for the Black Africans) and barely able to hold their arms. The Boer forces melted before the joint onslaught and by the end of 1900 it looked like the war was over, as the Boer field armies dispersed or surrendered. Roberts left for home, leaving Kitchener and Ian Hamilton in charge to mop up. Buller returned to England to his beloved Devon and never again held another field command.

The Boers, recognised the futility of fighting a regular army backed by endless supplies of food, men, and ammo, decided upon irregular warfare, forming in strong mobile horse-mounted Commandos who terrorised the scattered British occupying garrisons across the 'conquered' republics and into the British-held Cape Colony also. The Boers raided at will, capturing, and looting British outposts, which in turn led to Kitchener moving the Boer rural civilians from their farms and into poorly run and disease-infested concentration camps, as he felt they were aiding the Commandos by providing food and shelter in between raids. The mortality rate of the ‘white’ camps was shockingly high; the rate in the ‘black’ camps was even higher.

In addition, he set up a system of heavily armed concrete manned blockhouses across the veldt, interlinked in some places with telephones and barbed wire. The system, backed by a ready supply of Maxim guns and bully beef, eventually strangled the Boer Commandos into submission and by 1902 they were ready to talk.

Peace was agreed on generous terms; pardons for the Boer leaders and the rights of Black Africans sacrificed to enable a smooth transition of the republics into British control. By 1910 the Union of South Africa became a self-governing Dominion, with white control than would be enshrined in law over the next few decades and all the way to the end of Apartheid in 1994.

German rage at their ships being boarded during the war (the British were searching for arms being sent to the Boer Republics) led to the Naval Bill in 1899 being passed, which started the naval arms race between Britain and Germany. The contribution of the Empire to British forces in South Africa both reinforced bonds in the empire between the mother country and the Dominions (as George and Phil say, many who served were first- or second-generation immigrants), whilst also laying the seeds for their own burgeoning identities and nationalism. If Gallipoli and Passchendaele were the dawn of Dominion nationhood, then the approaching light of it on the horizon was first seen on the South African veldt.

Cheers,
Colin

Edit: full piece now up. Apologies!
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 11:58:48 AM
Hi Colin,

Thanks for the great informative post on Boer Wars, I guess in the US World history classes, little attention is paid to the Boer Wars! The conflicts are a little more complex than I thought! Thanks to you & George, I have at least a general knowledge on them!? ☺

BTW could one of you guys post a map on these battles?

I'm a map guy!?
Regrds,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 1:09:29 PM
The Battle of Passchendaele ended on Nov. 10, 1917. The offensive had been initiated on July 31 with the objective to break through and to seize the German submarine pens on the Belgian coast.

The British, Australians and New Zealanders had seen their troops chewed up in this battle that came to symbolize the futility and senseless slaughter in some phases of this war.

The Canadians Corps was told that it was their turn and despite protestations from the commander of the corps, General Arthur Currie, he was told that he must take Passchendaele ridge.

After two weeks of preparation the Canadians attacked on Oct. 26. Currie, a meticulous planner when given the chance had planned four separate, "bite and hold" operations. The second operation was on Oct. 30. The first two attacks only saw gains of a few hundred metres in the sloppy mud and rain of Passchendaele.

On Nov. 6 the Canadian Corps attacked again and on this day they captured the ridge and the village of Passchendaele. On Nov. 10, the task was completed as they cleared the Germans from some nearby high ground to the east of the ridge.

General Currie had told Gen. Haig that this battle would cost the Canadians 16,000 men. He was right on with 16, 404 casualties, 4000 of whom were killed. Many men were never found. Many wounded had slid off into a flooded shell hole and drowned.

Nine Canadians were awarded the Victoria Cross and there were countless other examples of courage in this impossible battlefield.

Britain and the Commonwealth had won at Passchendaele with 275,000 casualties in 4 months of fighting before Gen. Haig declared victory.

Cheers,

George



Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 2:28:59 PM
Excellent summary, George.

The battle lasted for 105 days, officially. Anyone unfortunate enough to be there on the 106th day, or for weeks thereafter, would not have enjoyed much respite.

The British “won” ?

Well, they won the ridge, for what it was worth.

And, it must be said, the British and Dominion troops showed a tactical ability that was markedly better than it had been the year before at the Somme.

The Canadians were preeminent in this respect.

The Germans lost the pulverised remains of a village in a quagmire, along with 200,000 of their men. In so doing, they inflicted thirty or forty percent more casualties than they themselves sustained. Not an attritional success, despite Haig’s claims.

In the meantime, the Germans succeeded in knocking Russia and Romania out of the war. They came close to knocking the Italians out, too.

Haig claimed that he had “ pinned “ the German army in Flanders. I don’t think that the Russians, the Romanians or the Italians would have agreed.

It was the other way round. The British were pinned down in their own futile endeavour. The entire Passchendaele sector was relinquished in a day the following April, when the Germans mounted their mighty offensive in the West. The spectacle of tens of thousands of unburied dead, left rotting for several months, appalled the Germans when they re-occupied this Golgotha .

Regards, Phil





Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 2:45:26 PM
Quote:
Hi Colin,

Thanks for the great informative post on Boer Wars, I guess in the US World history classes, little attention is paid to the Boer Wars! The conflicts are a little more complex than I thought! Thanks to you & George, I have at least a general knowledge on them!? ☺

BTW could one of you guys post a map on these battles?

I'm a map guy!?
Regrds,
MD


MD, it was Colin who presented the last post on the Boer War. Thanks should go to him.

It would be difficult to post a single map that indicated where all of the battles were fought in southern Africa during this conflict. But maps do exist for individual and important battles. The war eventually evolved into British and Commonwealth forces trying to track down Boer forces which had decided that it had to fight an asymmetrical war in guerrilla fashion.

Cheers,

George


Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 3:09:13 PM
Hi guys,

Thank you but half my post didn’t appear! I’ll see if I can retrieve the rest of it and edit the original.

Cheers,
Colin

Edit: full post now available a little further up.
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 6:58:42 PM
1989, the opening of the Berlin Wall! What a great day for freedom loving Germans & Europeans!? The Soviet Union is beginning to falter!? What say you about how this event was achieved, & is Putin trying to revive the Soviet Union by taking the Ukraine!? Anyone??

I may be very wrong, but it seems to me that Scoucer was at the wall in Berlin as it was falling, and might even have been photoed atop the crumbling wall. Personally, I think its destruction was one of the finer post-war symbols of the triumph of human dignity.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 8:03:58 PM
1923 Hitler's attempts to take over the German Government are stopped,19 Nazis are killed! Adolf is imprisoned! Why wasn't this the end of his power hungry demented ways?? How did Hitler get out of this & still take over German leadership!? Websites, articles, videos, welcome!? Anyone??

Not quite accurate. The Putsch was in Munich and against Bavaria rather than Germany. The French who cared about Hitler’s antics knew so little they thought his first name was Aloysius.Being told to consult the British for more information. Here is one description of the British response (Travellers in the Third Reich, p. 42):

“According to the British source, there was nothing to be alarmed about. The National Socialist Party was just a fire in the straw that would vanish as quickly as it had materialised. The men involved were Bavarian separatists of no significance and with no possibility of influencing events outside Bavaria. In fact, Hitler might even be worth encouraging since he wanted to claim independence for Bavaria, which might lead to the reinstatement of the Wittelsbach monarchy and possibly even the break-up of the German Reich. ‘And by the way,’ the message continued, ‘Hitler’s first name is Adolf – not Aloysius’.”

IMHO, there’s no point in trying to list specific references to the impact of the Beerhall Putsch. They are out there in their hundreds of thousands, offering both overviews and day-by-day assessments depending on one’s desire. Suffice to say that the anniversary of the Beerhall Putsch became one of the more respected days in the Nazi calendar which included the equivalent of an Old Comrade’s gathering that continued for more than a decade. There was even the Georg Elser attempt to kill all senior Nazi officials during their meeting in 1939. It failed because Hitler didn’t behave as normal, so was absent when the bomb went off.

Also today in 1938, an event involving the beginning of the end for Jews occurs in Germany, what was it?! Any takes on it??

‘Kristalnacht’ was presented to the world as a spontaneous response to the murder in Paris of a minor German diplomat by a young Polish Jew. But this was 1938 – 5 years+ into Nazi rule – so most Jews were well aware of what the Nazis had in mind for them. IMHO – and I think this is a point for discussion – this was not so much the beginning of the end as the first moment when German intentions re “the Jewish Problem” were made evident to the world. And, of course, it was a thoroughly contrived Nazi “spectacular”, a torchlight activity with a precisely mapped-out target. IIUC, Kristalnacht did become a motivator for Jews to leave Germany, but by this time leaving was not an easy option.And again, sources available are much to numerous to mention.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/10/2023 8:39:41 PM
Brian,

I believe you're right, IIRC, Trevor at one point on this site said he was at the Berlin wall when it came tumbling down!?

MD

BTW tomorrow the 11th month on the 11th day, i 1918! the Armistice that ended WWI. Any good celebrations, websites, articles, or videos on it? Anyone??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/11/2023 1:41:00 AM
So it’s here again. In a few hours in London we’ll be marking the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, in an atmosphere made febrile by the political shenanigans, with tribal identities holding sway in our interpretations of what’s happening in the Middle East, not to mention Ukraine.

Even wearing a poppy has become a matter of controversy. The generational divide is alarming.

By the way, George, I failed to thank you for that excellent link you provided about the Francophone enlistment statistics in the Canadian military in The Great War. Apologies.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/11/2023 9:58:55 AM
Quote:
So it’s here again. In a few hours in London we’ll be marking the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, in an atmosphere made febrile by the political shenanigans, with tribal identities holding sway in our interpretations of what’s happening in the Middle East, not to mention Ukraine.

Even wearing a poppy has become a matter of controversy. The generational divide is alarming.

By the way, George, I failed to thank you for that excellent link you provided about the Francophone enlistment statistics in the Canadian military in The Great War. Apologies.

Regards, Phil


You're welcome, Phil. I wonder whether the Australians and New Zealanders had the same cultural divides that Canada did during both wars and which led to a great reluctance on the part of one group to volunteer. I suspect that if they did that they would be dealing with smaller numbers of people and largely indigenous.

Cheers,

George
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
11/11/2023 11:35:11 AM
Hi George,

I can't speak for the experience of Aboriginal Australians (please forgive me if that's the wrong terminology), but I know that the NZ forces went to great lengths to try and stop Maori / part Maori men from joining up, with mixed success.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/11/2023 2:01:23 PM
The New Zealanders gained a reputation for brutality on the battlefield which transgressed international law.

Kippenberger, divisional commander in WW2, who served in the ranks of the NZ division in WW1, was very candid about fighting on the Somme in 1916.
In the action at Flers in September, the German prisoners and wounded were massacred and Kippenberger recorded that the German dead outnumbered their NZ counterparts by ten to one, because their wounded were killed as “ a matter of necessity “. He added that the New Zealanders’ dead were plentiful enough.

A generation later, a NZ Brigadier General, Clifton, was captured by the Italians along with two hundred of his men in the First Battle of El Alamein. Rommel took Clifton to his command post as a guest, and noted how mortified the kiwi was at the shame of being captured by Italians. Rommel then complained to Clifton that, in recent fighting, NZ troops had been slaughtering Axis prisoners and wounded. A striking similarity to the earlier war…… Clifton attributed this to the large numbers of Maoris in the ranks. Clearly, they were useful as scapegoats !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/11/2023 2:36:28 PM
Quote:
Quote:
So it’s here again. In a few hours in London we’ll be marking the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, in an atmosphere made febrile by the political shenanigans, with tribal identities holding sway in our interpretations of what’s happening in the Middle East, not to mention Ukraine.

Even wearing a poppy has become a matter of controversy. The generational divide is alarming.

By the way, George, I failed to thank you for that excellent link you provided about the Francophone enlistment statistics in the Canadian military in The Great War. Apologies.

Regards, Phil


You're welcome, Phil. I wonder whether the Australians and New Zealanders had the same cultural divides that Canada did during both wars and which led to a great reluctance on the part of one group to volunteer. I suspect that if they did that they would be dealing with smaller numbers of people and largely indigenous.

Cheers,

George


Might it be that Australians of Irish provenance were prone to resentment against British treatment of their Irish forefathers that was reflected in enlistment ratios ?

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/11/2023 9:12:45 PM
reposted in WWII
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2023 7:25:03 AM
Quote:
The New Zealanders gained a reputation for brutality on the battlefield which transgressed international law.

Kippenberger, divisional commander in WW2, who served in the ranks of the NZ division in WW1, was very candid about fighting on the Somme in 1916.
In the action at Flers in September, the German prisoners and wounded were massacred and Kippenberger recorded that the German dead outnumbered their NZ counterparts by ten to one, because their wounded were killed as “ a matter of necessity “. He added that the New Zealanders’ dead were plentiful enough.

A generation later, a NZ Brigadier General, Clifton, was captured by the Italians along with two hundred of his men in the First Battle of El Alamein. Rommel took Clifton to his command post as a guest, and noted how mortified the kiwi was at the shame of being captured by Italians. Rommel then complained to Clifton that, in recent fighting, NZ troops had been slaughtering Axis prisoners and wounded. A striking similarity to the earlier war…… Clifton attributed this to the large numbers of Maoris in the ranks. Clearly, they were useful as scapegoats !

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil,

I never realized that the New Zealanders could be so brutal in warfare!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2023 7:31:54 AM

BTW please continue with past discussions, & here are some new dates, & events

11-10-1775 the US Marine Corps was founded to help fight four the American Patriot cause! Any websites or posts on the Marines??

On 11-11, of course the end of WWI, but what else??

1493 Columbus rediscovers the Island of St. Martins, another theft of a Native American Isle!?

1813 the Brits. win the Battle of Chrysler's Farm, why fight over a farm?? Anyone?

1878 the Cherry Valley Raid by the Iroquois, attacks Americans in NY state! Why were these Natives, pro British? What say you??

1831 Nate Turner has his famous slave rebellion! How did the South react?? Comments on its aftermath?? Anyone?

1880 Bush Ranger Ned Kelly was hanged in Oz! Why? Anyone?? Was Australia quite lawless??

& today in world history, 11-12.

1767 the British Royal Society promotes James Cook for an expedition through the Pacific Ocean. Cook would become famous for his great discoveries until his death on the big island of Hawaii. What's your take on this great British Naval Captain!?

1912, Robert Falcon Scott s body & those of his party are found in tent in the frozen Antarctica! What, & why did Scott's race to the pole end so tragically?? What say you?

1930 the British Empire is on the verge of losing India! Why? Anyone??

1941 the German drive to take Moscow is stopped! What went in to this Russian Victory? Comments?

1944 the RAF sink the German Pocket Battleship in a Norwegian Fjord. Any details on this RAF success??

1954 Ellis Island closes! Where will immigrants go now??

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2023 8:13:02 AM
Are you referencing Tirpitz? It was a full battleship. Just wondering.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2023 10:21:38 AM
Quote:
Quote:
The New Zealanders gained a reputation for brutality on the battlefield which transgressed international law.

Kippenberger, divisional commander in WW2, who served in the ranks of the NZ division in WW1, was very candid about fighting on the Somme in 1916.
In the action at Flers in September, the German prisoners and wounded were massacred and Kippenberger recorded that the German dead outnumbered their NZ counterparts by ten to one, because their wounded were killed as “ a matter of necessity “. He added that the New Zealanders’ dead were plentiful enough.

A generation later, a NZ Brigadier General, Clifton, was captured by the Italians along with two hundred of his men in the First Battle of El Alamein. Rommel took Clifton to his command post as a guest, and noted how mortified the kiwi was at the shame of being captured by Italians. Rommel then complained to Clifton that, in recent fighting, NZ troops had been slaughtering Axis prisoners and wounded. A striking similarity to the earlier war…… Clifton attributed this to the large numbers of Maoris in the ranks. Clearly, they were useful as scapegoats !

Regards, Phil



Hi Phil,

I never realized that the New Zealanders could be so brutal in warfare!?

Regards,
MD


It came as a revelation to me, too, Dave !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4811
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2023 5:38:34 PM
Are you referencing Tirpitz? It was a full battleship. Just wondering.” Agree.

Tirpitz was the second of two Bismarck class ships built for the Kriegsmarine, the first being Bismark herself. She was an awesome ship – similar in size and striking power to the USN fast-strike BBs, and IMHO better than anything the RN could counter with. It was by a combination of good luck and tremendous bravery that Tirpitz was sufficiently damaged by miniature subs to be withdrawn from active service, ending up deep in a fjord in Norway. GB couldn’t let her be; she became, IMHO, a target to obsession.

The raid which finally finished off Tirpitz was conducted by fewer than 30 Lancasters from two of Bomber Commands specialist squadrons (617 and 9) – both I believe of No. 5 Group under Ralph Cochrane. Each a/c had been modified to carry the weight of a “Tallboy” earthquake bomb, which needed to be dropped with great precision from a considerable altitude. At least two Tallboys penetrated Tirpitz’s armoured deck, exploding deep inside the hull. Either the Tallboys on there own (there was also at least one near-miss) or on-board shells blew the bottom out of her; she capsized within minutes.

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
11/12/2023 5:44:32 PM
And thus passed "The Beast Of The North."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2023 8:18:25 AM
Quote:
Are you referencing Tirpitz? It was a full battleship. Just wondering.



OP,

I stand corrected!

Thanks, MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2023 8:26:02 AM

Last check 11-9 in history! See below, & comment!?

1799 Napoleon siezes power after a coup in Paris! Why was the French military so pro Napoleon!? Anyone??

1888 Jack the Ripper, notorious serial-killer's murder spree comes to an end! How was he stopped!? Comments?

1922 Albert Einstein wins the Nobel peace Prize in Physics! Was All really as A genius as he is made out to be?? What say you??

1923 Hitler's attempts to take over the German Government are stopped,19 Nazis are killed! Adolf is imprisoned! Why wasn't this the end of his power hungry demented ways?? How did Hitler get out of this & still take over German leadership!? Websites, articles, videos, welcome!? Anyone??

Also today in 1938, an event involving the beginning of the end for Jews occurs in Germany?

1953 Cambodia becomes independent from France! Is this tied into the situation in Vietnam!? Then ultimately pulling the US in later?? What say you about Revolution in this area!? Comments??

1989, the opening of the Berlin Wall! What a great day for freedom loving Germans & Europeans!? The Soviet Union is beginning to falter!? What say you about how this event was achieved?

BTW please continue with past discussions, & here are some other recent dates, & events!??

11-10-1871, Henry Stanley found Dr. David Livingston, & said this famous quote, "Dr. Livingston, I presume"?? Why did the Brits. make such a big deal over this?? Anyone?

1775 the US Marine Corps was founded to help fight four the American Patriot cause! Any websites or posts on the Marines??

On 11-11, of course the end of WWI, but what else? Well?

1493 Columbus rediscovers the Island of St. Martins, another theft of a Native American Isle!?

1813 the Brits. win the Battle of Chrysler's Farm, why fight over a farm?? Anyone?

1878 the Cherry Valley Raid by the Iroquois, attacks Americans in NY state! Why were these Natives, pro British? What say you??

1831 Nate Turner has his famous slave rebellion! How did the South fear, & react?? Comments on its aftermath?? Anyone?

1880 Bush Ranger Ned Kelly was hanged in Oz! Why? Anyone?? Was Australia quite lawless, at this time??

11-12 in history,

1930 the British Empire is on the verge of losing India! Why? Anyone??

1954 Ellis Island closes! Where will immigrants go now??

& finally today, 11-13 in world events, check these out??

1850 Robert L. Stevenson was born, this great author chose to live for a while in the South Pacific! Paradise anyone?? What say you??

1916 the Battle of the Somme ends! Comments on this horrific battle, anyone??

2001 the Northern Alliance captures Kabul in Afghanistan! What ever happened to the N. Alliance? How did this come as a result of 9-11? Comments?

Peace,, & sieze the day!
MD

Any other missed topics, anyone??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2023 9:32:25 AM
Quote:
1953 Cambodia becomes independent from France! Is this tied into the situation in Vietnam!? Then ultimately pulling the US in later?? What say you about Revolution in this area!? Comments??


I don't think that, "pulling the US in later" is a fair description. The US entered willingly after rejecting the concept of a free and fair election to decide who would rule Vietnam.

The Geneva Accords were signed in 1954 and the players finally agreed that a ceasefire would be monitored by a UN commission, the International Control Commission chaired by India with Canada and Poland as the other two members. Canada sent peacekeepers to Vietnam and they would be there until 1975 with very little peace to keep for most of that time.

The Accords called for, among many things including that "free general elections by secret ballot shall be held in July 1956, under the supervision of the International Supervisory Commission". The goal was to unify the country of Vietnam while temporarily enforcing a demarcation line between the north and the south and maintaining a ceasefire.

But the US had said that it was not a party to the Accords and while pleased with the ceasefire that would allow withdrawal of French Union forces, the US did not agree with all of the provisions of the Accords and therefore, would not abide by them. Nor would the State of Vietnam (later called South Vietnam) abide by the Accords.

The French left and the US stepped in as the main backer of the State of Vietnam. The US and the State of Vietnam knew that in a free and fair election, it was likely that Ho Chi Min, the communist leader in the north would win.

From a US perspective, it could not allow a communist takeover and while not wanting another Korea to begin, it too would not support elections supervised by the UN's ICSC.

Cheers,

George

EDIT: The ICSC was also an impotent force. The Geneva Accords were somewhat ambiguous in what they asked the commission to accomplish. The ICSC was merely an observer force with insufficient numbers of soldiers to make any difference at all. It was very successful in separating the belligerents and asking them to head to their respective corners. But there was a political will to let that happen by the belligerent parties. They were less co-operative especially in the north with the observers who were supposed to assure that no further weaponry was moved forward toward the demarcation line.
I have read some of the history of Canada's involvement in this operation and I know that they were frustrated because in if any decisions were to be made, the Poles would side with North Vietnam. Eisenhower commented that while he didn't initially want Canada as part of the commission that as a compromise choice Canada would useful because, "they could block things". So he thought that Canada would protect US interests. The Indians realized the situation and were fearful of making tough decisions and so they dithered. Canada thought about pulling out but were fearful of leaving a vacuum which would lead to hostilities breaking out. That happened anyway, didn't it?





George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/13/2023 4:47:08 PM
Quote:
1878 the Cherry Valley Raid by the Iroquois, attacks Americans in NY state! Why were these Natives, pro British? What say you??


The date of this raid was actually 1778 during the American revolution. The Iroquois had long been allies of the British because the British were enemies of the French and so they assisted the British in eliminating the French fact in North America during the French and Indian Wars which ended in 1763. After that the British passed legislation to stop settlers from advancing beyond the Appalachians. So if they had to pick a partner and love neither one, most sided with the British.

The revolution actually caused a rift in the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederacy with some tribes aligning with the American rebels while most remained aligned with the British.

Traditional Haudenosaunee territory was extensive.



This was prime farm land and the Haudenosaunee were under steady pressure from the British colonists who wished to expand into their territory. And so they fought and some of the fighting was brutal and vicious as it had been when the Haudenosaunee fought with the French.

Note that until 1777 the British had not asked their First Nations allies to support them but altered that policy in that year.

The Cherry Valley Raid was actually direct payback for raids by the Continental Army and colonial militia into Haudenosaunee territory and in which they destroyed three villages of the Seneca tribe.

The Haudenosaunee chief was Joseph Brant and he was very angry so he and Lt. Col. John Butler and men from his Loyalist militia called Butler's Rangers descended upon Cherry Valley and killed a number of people. It wasn't just payback for the British though. They hoped to secure their bases by destroying rebel bases in the Mohawk Valley.

At Cherry Hill, there was a rebel military installation led by a man named Alden and he and the residents of Cherry Hill had received intelligence that there could be an attack in this region. The settlers asked to come into Alden's fort but he denied them permission. And so Butler and Joseph Brant attacked homes where Continental Army officers were billeted and then attacked the fort. This attack failed.

As Butler and Brant left, attacks were made on civilians and a number were killed. Ironically, it was Butler's Rangers who were blamed and the Continental forces claimed the Haudenosaunee chief, Joseph Brant, prevented the slaughter of women and children. The Seneca warriors aligned with Butler apparently committed the slaughter of civilians and Butler did little to stop them. Brant stepped in to stop the slaughter.

The raid on Cherry Valley was actually a well run military operation against Continental forces but the only aspect that garners any interest is the one that says that the Indians engaged in a massacre. Indeed, some women and children were murdered but not as many as would have been.

And the Continental forces retaliated shortly after with Sullivan's raid. This revolution was more complex than we sometimes believe. There were many subtexts to the story.

Cheers,

George



Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2023 7:49:14 AM
Quote:
Quote:
1878 the Cherry Valley Raid by the Iroquois, attacks Americans in NY state! Why were these Natives, pro British? What say you??


The date of this raid was actually 1778 during the American revolution. The Iroquois had long been allies of the British because the British were enemies of the French and so they assisted the British in eliminating the French fact in North America during the French and Indian Wars which ended in 1763. After that the British passed legislation to stop settlers from advancing beyond the Appalachians. So if they had to pick a partner and love neither one, most sided with the British.

The revolution actually caused a rift in the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederacy with some tribes aligning with the American rebels while most remained aligned with the British.

Traditional Haudenosaunee territory was extensive.



This was prime farm land and the Haudenosaunee were under steady pressure from the British colonists who wished to expand into their territory. And so they fought and some of the fighting was brutal and vicious as it had been when the Haudenosaunee fought with the French.

Note that until 1777 the British had not asked their First Nations allies to support them but altered that policy in that year.

The Cherry Valley Raid was actually direct payback for raids by the Continental Army and colonial militia into Haudenosaunee territory and in which they destroyed three villages of the Seneca tribe.

The Haudenosaunee chief was Joseph Brant and he was very angry so he and Lt. Col. John Butler and men from his Loyalist militia called Butler's Rangers descended upon Cherry Valley and killed a number of people. It wasn't just payback for the British though. They hoped to secure their bases by destroying rebel bases in the Mohawk Valley.

At Cherry Hill, there was a rebel military installation led by a man named Alden and he and the residents of Cherry Hill had received intelligence that there could be an attack in this region. The settlers asked to come into Alden's fort but he denied them permission. And so Butler and Joseph Brant attacked homes where Continental Army officers were billeted and then attacked the fort. This attack failed.

As Butler and Brant left, attacks were made on civilians and a number were killed. Ironically, it was Butler's Rangers who were blamed and the Continental forces claimed the Haudenosaunee chief, Joseph Brant, prevented the slaughter of women and children. The Seneca warriors aligned with Butler apparently committed the slaughter of civilians and Butler did little to stop them. Brant stepped in to stop the slaughter.

The raid on Cherry Valley was actually a well run military operation against Continental forces but the only aspect that garners any interest is the one that says that the Indians engaged in a massacre. Indeed, some women and children were murdered but not as many as would have been.

And the Continental forces retaliated shortly after with Sullivan's raid. This revolution was more complex than we sometimes believe. There were many subtexts to the story.

Cheers,

George






Hi George,

I have traveled through some of the Haudenosaunee territory or at least what used to be it. In going around Northern Lake Champlain, there is a statue of the French Explorer Samuel Champlain meeting with the Haudenosaunee, aka Mohawks, Iroquois, on the north side of the lake! So their area may have been even bigger? They seemed to be a war like tribe, I know other tribes feared them!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2023 7:55:54 AM
Guys,

11-14, tens of thousands in an army attacking another army which out numbers them, but has no weapons!? I'm talking about deer hunting. The open gun season is 11-15, I believe the season is longer in Canada? What say you about deer hunting? A sport or inhumane?? Anyone??

11-15, 1864, Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman begins his famous March to the Sea! It is said, He uses total war to hasten its end. What say you is it true, & what about this type of tactic in warfare?? Is all fair in love & war? Anyone?

1891, the Desert Fox, German General Erwin Rommel, is born. Was he one of Germany's greatest commanders in WWII?? Comments anyone?

1988 Yassar Arafat declares statehood for Palestine! How could he succeed against powerful Israel? What say you??

Any more topics, past or present? Please post!?

Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2023 8:27:01 AM
Quote:
Hi George,

I have traveled through some of the Haudenosaunee territory or at least what used to be it. In going around Northern Lake Champlain, there is a statue of the French Explorer Samuel Champlain meeting with the Haudenosaunee, aka Mohawks, Iroquois, on the north side of the lake! So their area may have been even bigger? They seemed to be a war like tribe, I know other tribes feared them!?

Regards,
MD


The Mohawks were the guardians of the eastern most entry points to the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. They did travel outside of their territory to trade and raid. We know that they harassed the French settlements at Montréal and engaged in some horrific massacres. The Haudenosaunee fought with the French for 100 years.

That statue of Champlain commemorates a contact that he and his First Nations allies in French Canada had with the Mohawks. This was near the site of Ticonderoga, not far from the lake that bears his name.

EDIT: I doubt that the statue commemorates the violent nature of Champlain's contact. That's the type of thing usually ignored on statues erected by the people who settled on FN's land.

Champlain had been persuaded by his Huron and Algonquin allies to accompany them on a raid into Mohawk territory. They were arch enemies of the Haudenosaunee.

When they made contact with the Mohawks the two sides assumed menacing postures. Champlain stepped forward with his weapon and fired and two Mohawk chiefs fell dead. Another was badly wounded. The Mohawks scattered in fear.

And from that point on and for the next 100 years, the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) were sworn enemies of the French. And thus began the Beaver Wars which only ended with the Great Peace of Montréal agreed to by the French and 39 other tribes. That was 1701.

Champlain's first violent action with the Mohawks was in 1609 so there wasn't quite one hundred years of fighting but it sounds more dramatic to describe it as a century of violence.

A painting by Canadian artist, C.W. Jeffries



Cheers,

George
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2023 3:57:27 PM
What has struck me in my ongoing amateur study of the European colonisation of North America is that the Europeans made initially very slow progress in taking the lands of the First Nations. The map of NA in 1776 has the European settlements in what is now the USA confined to the east coast, with some territories inland on an often undefined frontier.

In Canada, the British and Québécois settlements there eked out a precarious existence on the doorsteps of seemingly vast indigenous lands.

Spain had nominal control of Florida, which no doubt looked impressive on a map but was as safe as a house of cards, as the impending wars of independence in its South American colonies were about to show.

It took the British, Spanish and French just under 200 years to manage this slice of colonisation. This was at a time when the European nation states were in the ascendancy and pouring huge sums into their fledgling colonial possessions.

Fast forward to 1876, and the continent is more or less coloured in on the map. There were some unorganised territories that would become states, but the sovereignty of the continent in US and Canadian/British control was beyond question. I’m not sure the same could or would have been said in 1776.

What brought about this rapid acceleration of the decline of indigenous control of North America? New technologies, political determination (Manifest Destiny) or increased settlement by European / American immigrants? I guess possibly all three and more?

Cheers,
Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1973
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2023 5:33:40 PM
"Go west, young man!", or the equivalent in other wording. Daniel Boone was said to move west when he could see the smoke from his nearest neighbor's cook fires. Tales of level farmland in Indiana, Ohio and Michigan suggested that there was gold in them thar flatlands. /snark
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/14/2023 6:56:54 PM
Quote:
What has struck me in my ongoing amateur study of the European colonisation of North America is that the Europeans made initially very slow progress in taking the lands of the First Nations. The map of NA in 1776 has the European settlements in what is now the USA confined to the east coast, with some territories inland on an often undefined frontier.

In Canada, the British and Québécois settlements there eked out a precarious existence on the doorsteps of seemingly vast indigenous lands.

Spain had nominal control of Florida, which no doubt looked impressive on a map but was as safe as a house of cards, as the impending wars of independence in its South American colonies were about to show.

It took the British, Spanish and French just under 200 years to manage this slice of colonisation. This was at a time when the European nation states were in the ascendancy and pouring huge sums into their fledgling colonial possessions.

Fast forward to 1876, and the continent is more or less coloured in on the map. There were some unorganised territories that would become states, but the sovereignty of the continent in US and Canadian/British control was beyond question. I’m not sure the same could or would have been said in 1776.

What brought about this rapid acceleration of the decline of indigenous control of North America? New technologies, political determination (Manifest Destiny) or increased settlement by European / American immigrants? I guess possibly all three and more?

Cheers,
Colin


Hello Colin,

Massive immigration accelerated with the advent of trans-continental rail lines in the latter part of the 19th century. When the large numbers began to move west, with or without the rail lines, they ran into conflict with the First Nations. But the conflicts didn't stop the people from coming.

The British colonies were hemmed in by the Allegheny Mountains and the British actually tried to prevent immigration from their colonies along the eastern seaboard when they defeated the French in the French and Indian Wars. They declared the Royal Proclamation in 1763 which limited where colonists could settle in British North America. They were permitted to settle anywhere between the Atlantic Ocean and the Allegheny Mountains. The territory beyond that was supposed to be Indian territory. That had the effect to slow immigration but not for very long because land speculators from the colonies, especially Virginia had already invested in land in Indian territory, hoping to sell it. They resented the proclamation.

As an aside, Interestingly the First Nations of Canada still point to that proclamation of 1763 as foundational and a guarantee of indigenous rights because it was never repealed. Without going into detail, three of the legal principles governing the relationship between indigenous people and the government of Canada are enshrined in the constitution. The First Nations call it the Indian "Magna Carta".

The British also enacted the Quebec Act of 1774 which expanded the territory of Quebec well into the Ohio Valley where the British colonists wanted to settle. The act made these lands part of another colony and supposedly not open for settlement.

That was a bone of contention and was considered an intolerable act by those who sought independence.

When the Revolution was over, a flood of immigrants headed west and by 1810 states like Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee were developed farmland. By 1830, so many people had emigrated to the west (I don't mean the far west), that there were sufficient numbers to create new states out of what had been the Old Northwest and Southwest.

From that point people began to head even farther west to California and with the discovery of gold the numbers arriving increased. People headed to the Pacific northwest into lands controlled by the British Hudson Bay Company and when their numbers increased so much that they sought union with the US, the British and the Americans negotiated the Oregon Treaty in 1846. That established the international border from the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific, at 49 degrees.

Canada's situation was a little different because of the harshness of the geography to the north of Lake Superior but the people tended to follow the railroad which wasn't completed to the west coast until 1885. Our treaties with the western First Nations tribes were negotiated with far less blood shed than what we saw in the US. With pacification came the opportunity to sell land along the rail line and to colonize.


Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/15/2023 8:23:27 AM
As I hear gunfire from some of the hunters targeting deer! Opening day for gun deer season!

In the CW guns were also fireing! November 15, 1864, Union General William T. Sherman begins his expedition across Georgia by torching the industrial section of Atlanta and pulling away from his supply lines. For the next six weeks, Sherman’s army marched across most of the state before capturing the Confederate seaport of Savannah, Georgia. What's your take on Sherman? Anyone??

Regards,
MD

BTW, continue with previous topics or start new ones??
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/16/2023 8:02:15 AM
Guys,

Yesterday,

11-15, tens of thousands in an army attacking another army which out numbers them, but has no weapons!? I'm talking about deer hunting. The open gun season was yesterday, 11-15, What say you about deer hunting? A sport or not? Anyone?

11-15, 1864, Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman begins his famous March to the Sea! It is said, He uses total war to hasten its end. What say you is it true, & what about this type of tactic in warfare? Anyone?

1891, the Desert Fox, German General Erwin Rommel, is born. Was he one of Germany's greatest commanders in WWII? A Hitler favorite, then enemy? Comments anyone?

1988 Yassar Arafat declares statehood for Palestine! How could he succeed against powerful Israel? What say you??

& Today, 11-16 in world history, just some of what happened!? Any new topics? Anyone??

42 bce. Tiberius was born to become the 2nd Emporer of Rome!? Who was the most successful Emporer of Rome!? Comments?

1272 Henry the VIII dies at 65 years of age! Weddings a side was he a good monarch? & is 65 an old age back then? What was the life expectancy? What say you??

1855 David Livingstone sees Lake Victoria! Was this the source of the Nile?? Comments anyone?

1973 the Alaskan pipeline is approved of by Pres. Nixon! How much on the nations oil comes from here? Is it still going strong to help our fuel shortage?? What say you??

Any more topics, past or present?
Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6509
Joined: 2004
This day in World History! Continued
11/16/2023 8:35:22 AM
Hi Dave,

Sherman and “ Total War “ ?

Hard war, certainly. Harsh war, to a significant degree.

But the phrase “ Total War “ doesn’t apply, in my opinion.

The warfare of Antiquity was total : “ Carthage delenda est “; cities not only destroyed; but all inhabitants put to the sword - or worse. Likewise the Nazi Soviet warfare of 1941-45. That’s “ total “.

Sherman was quite genteel in comparison.

Suggest refer to our Mike_C’s article .

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13550
Joined: 2009
This day in World History! Continued
11/16/2023 1:08:57 PM
Quote:
1973 the Alaskan pipeline is approved of by Pres. Nixon! How much on the nations oil comes from here? Is it still going strong to help our fuel shortage?? What say you??


The data that I have indicates that the Alaskan pipeline provides 3.86% of US oil production. A good portion of the oil goes to refineries in California and Washington and the refined products like gasoline are returned to the state.

The Biden administration recently approved a massive new drilling operation that is being opposed by environmentalists. There are scientists who disapprove because this project is supposed to extract oil for decades when dependence upon fossil fuels is supposed to be decreasing. This project won't be productive for years and the US is increasing its production of green energy year by year.

If we suddenly pulled the plug on on oil production, it would be disastrous. But then years from now, we will be producing a lot of electricity by different means. And new projects will just be coming on line.

Oil production in Alaska could be in trouble though. A lot of the infrastructure in the far north of North America is under stress because of the warming of the climate. As the permafrost thaws there is little to support structures like overland pipelines. Buildings are at risk too. An oil spill up there could be disastrous in such a pristine environment.

Cheers,

George
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 8313
Joined: 2006
This day in World History! Continued
11/16/2023 7:03:06 PM
Quote:
Hi Dave,

Sherman and “ Total War “ ?

Hard war, certainly. Harsh war, to a significant degree.

But the phrase “ Total War “ doesn’t apply, in my opinion.

The warfare of Antiquity was total : “ Carthage delenda est “; cities not only destroyed; but all inhabitants put to the sword - or worse. Likewise the Nazi Soviet warfare of 1941-45. That’s “ total “.

Sherman was quite genteel in comparison.

Suggest refer to our Mike_C’s article .

Regards, Phil





Hi Phil,

Total War, on Sherman's march to the sea? I guess it depends on to what degree? Surely the other instances you mentioned were more horrific, total war, but in definitions of some history people, Sherman's March, including Civilians being victims would make Sherman's March being "total war" because it totally effected everyone, even Civilians? Perhaps there is another term for including civilians in a war, but what is it?? As far as Mike C's article on total war, I couldn't find it on MHO??

Thanks,& Regards,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2005
This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2023 7:02:52 AM
Hi Dave,

My reading of it is that there was little to no molestation or harm done to civilians in the path of Sherman's army. In times of old, everyone and everything was fair game. Phil references Rome's wars against Carthage; Rome put to the sword or enslaved every citizen of Carthage when they finally conquered the great city. All resources were plundered and the city reduced to rubble. To me, that's total war; a complete reduction of the enemy and its infrastructure and system of government. Even during WW2, efforts were made by the Allied powers to avoid wanton plundering of German cities by occupying Allied forces.

Sherman cut a path of destruction, but the areas outside of this path survived generally unscathed. In North Carolina, Sherman's forces went to great lengths to avoid destruction of property, recognising that NC had been a less than enthusiastic member of the Confederacy. However, the opposite was true in South Carolina, where much property was destroyed or looted, as the army recognised their years of brutal service had been triggered by the attempted secession of SC at the start.

Cheers,

Colin
----------------------------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3270
Joined: 2010
This day in World History! Continued
11/17/2023 7:11:32 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Dave,

Sherman and “ Total War “ ?

Hard war, certainly. Harsh war, to a significant degree.

But the phrase “ Total War “ doesn’t apply, in my opinion.

The warfare of Antiquity was total : “ Carthage delenda est “; cities not only destroyed; but all inhabitants put to the sword - or worse. Likewise the Nazi Soviet warfare of 1941-45. That’s “ total “.

Sherman was quite genteel in comparison.

Suggest refer to our Mike_C’s article .

Regards, Phil





Hi Phil,

Total War, on Sherman's march to the sea? I guess it depends on to what degree? Surely the other instances you mentioned were more horrific, total war, but in definitions of some history people, Sherman's March, including Civilians being victims would make Sherman's March being "total war" because it totally effected everyone, even Civilians? Perhaps there is another term for including civilians in a war, but what is it?? As far as Mike C's article on total war, I couldn't find it on MHO??

Thanks,& Regards,
MD



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Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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