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vpatrick
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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I found this discussion by accident, I was raised a Catholic, I have conservative Catholics family members in my family still and many that have left the church including me. But I think this video is pertinent to Military History. What I liked about it most it was a discussion not a screaming match.
[Read More]
vpatrick
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nuts
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scoucer
Berlin
Germany
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Sorry Vince, wanted to look at it but as soon as I saw that obnoxious, evil, lunatic xenophobic old witch Anne Widdicombe on the panel couldnt do it.
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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Phil Andrade
London
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Forgive me, Vin, but I couldn’t cope with a two hour discussion.
But I would be very interested to see what you have to say.
My mind recoils a bit from Catholicism : it conjures up images of oppression and the Inquisition. I tend to feel that wherever people are poor in the world, the Catholic Church holds sway.
The emotional side of me is more forgiving : there must be a reassuring aspect to a faith that allows you to gain Absolution if you confess.
Intellectually, I repudiate it : the side of me that’s frightened of the dark and craves mystery is more indulgent.
Please tell us what you would like to say.
I promise to try and take another look at that discussion.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Phil Andrade
London
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Vin,
A repentant note from me : my answer was all about me . Sorry !
This topic does make for a subjective interpretation.
I myself have access to gain Portuguese citizenship because of the atrocities committed by the Portuguese Inquisition against my Sephardi ancestors.
There’s a lot of this going on : look no further than the apologies being issued by the Pope for the treatment of First Nations children in Canada. Other things come to mind, too.
It’s always struck me as significant that Catholic Bavaria was a fertile bed of Nazism , and that Fascism flourished and is still flourishing in areas of the World where Catholicism predominates.
There is a corollary : the beautiful art of the Renaissance and the humanist scholarship of that era must not be forgotten . And the monasteries and convents of the mediaeval era were dispensers of welfare. The development of banking and trade was given enormous impetus by Catholic Italy, even if so many of the practitioners were Jews. The ascendancy of the western world owes much to Catholic people, even if it took the break with Rome before things gained dynamism.
More in tune with military history, the Catholic League made a tremendously important and effective bulwark against the ravages of the Ottomans, especially at Lepanto.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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If it wasn't the Catholics it would have been some other sect.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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The Pope is in Canada right now. We are in a process of reconciliation with our First Nations whose children were taken from their homes and transferred to residential schools. The federal government made deals with different religious denominations to operate these schools. The Roman Catholic Church operated the majority but there were other Protestant churches that operated schools as well.
The Anglican Church of Canada has already apologized for its role in separating children from their families but the RC church has been more reluctant to do so.
The British and the Canadians hoped to "civilize the savages" or "take the Indian out of the child" as our first PM, John A. Macdonald once said. The schools predate Sir John with the first one created in 1831 while Upper Canada was a colony of Great Britain. The system was expanded when Canada became a nation in 1867.
The FN call this process a cultural genocide. The government saw them as inferior and as pagans. The churches of course hoped to convert the FN kids to Christianity. And in this they were quite successful. Apparently their are 500,000 FN across the country who still worship in the RC faith though they often mix their traditional beliefs and practices with Christian doctrine.
But our recent history has revealed that many of these kids died while in the schools and often their deaths were not reported to the families. They just never saw their kids again. The survivors have reported beatings for speaking their native language, starvation and sexual abuse.
Now we do not know how all of these kids died. Did they die of diseases over the 100+ years of operation of these schools? Were they murdered? Recently it has been discovered that there are graves, many unmarked, of hundreds of FN children at the sites of a number of former residential schools. I must add that the last of these schools was closed in the '90's, so within fairly recent history.
There is data being withheld by the RC church and by some of our provincial governments that could help to explain the failure of these schools and perhaps to tell us how these children died. That these kids were taken against the will of their parents and told to live in a residential school for 8 years or so without any visit home is a travesty made worse by the fact that some died while at school.
Many survivors never recovered psychologically and the rate of alcoholism and suicide is high among these people. For some, their anger has contributed to the fact that they have been violent toward their own children.
And so we need to investigate and the Pope, just yesterday, confirmed that in his speech at the Maskwacis First Nation (Cree, I believe) that he supports a full investigation. He was also apologetic and begged for forgiveness. Many FN will not be able to do that. Some are happy that he made the journey.
The RC church has information that it must release in order to bring some peace to the people who want to know what happened to their children. As well, the church did have an agreement to a financial settlement in the millions of dollars but it seems that they reneged on that deal or were allowed out of it. I am sure that this wealthy institution fears the cost of admission that its Doctrine of Discovery may have indirectly lead to the deaths of little kids and certainly was supportive of colonization.
So was this church a force for good? It is hard to come to that conclusion right now.
Cheers,
George
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vpatrick
MA
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Hi Guys
Thanks for your comments and my apologies this video is defiantly an investment of time, I just found it compelling and one of the few conversations about this subject that was regulated and controlled and had its historical merits. I dont know any of the speakers other than Christopher Hitchens who I have heard of but am not that familiar with. I left the Catholic church because of personal reasons I wont bore anyone with and have never been able to find another organized religion I was comfortable with even though I feel like I am a religious soul, just another one of life's regret I guess.
My comments concerning the debate I would just say the Catholic side was not represented well, they were not nearly as articulate, compelling or heartfelt as their competition yet I did feel some sympathies to their cause. The subject is so complex and nuanced I will just confess I am not smart enough or well read enough to say a 2000 year old institution overall was not a force for good throughout its long history and agree with George. its just hard to come to that conclusion. I just found the debate interesting and wanted to share it.
I was hesitant to post this video because it has to do with religion but felt that the forum it was presented in endeavored to be fair and because I felt it pertinent because of the Catholic Church's involvement in war be it active one like The Crusades or questionably passive like WW2 throughout history.
vpatrick
edit; I attributed a quote to Brian G. when it was George the quote was "So was this church a force for good? It is hard to come to that conclusion right now." this is what Iwas referring to my apologies.
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nuts
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Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon
MI USA
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Quote:
Above Brian has listed all the positive things the Catholic Church has had on the 1st Nations!? And I agree with all of them but would like to add the following to the list!! , , , , ,!
Right on Bri.!!!!
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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MD, I wrote a comment based on VP’s post using the new forum layout. It was a comment made without reading/hearing VP’s link, and I was dissatisfied with my comments that I tried to remove the post. I could find a way to delete the copy but not the post. Hence my post remained blank.
Please note: I was not making any comment about Roman Catholicism’s historical, religious or political conduct by leaving it blank. Perhaps that was a mistake on my part.
I recognize but do not understand how one can reject at a visceral level any one of the monotheistic faiths. My father hated Catholicism, because he saw priests using young indigenous girls as “housekeepers” in BC’s interior. But he didn’t much like Baptists very much either, and the values behind Japanese-Canadian culture were dangerous. I was visiting friends the other day, and their daughter (a very successful entrepreneur indeed) talked of “jewing” someone down. “Oh,” she said, “I guess that’s no longer PC. But that’s what they do, isn’t it!” And nobody, sadly, has to look far to find rage against Islamists.
Even as the most amateur of historians, particularly when studying European history, I believe I have to accept monotheism as a major force in Europe’s growth and development. The faiths of the Book (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) have provided a needed continuity that defined European history. Not just by faith, which is at the heart of most of European development, but also the continuity the faiths provided as centres of literacy, culture, legal stability and – vitally – power brokerage.
After the split between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman ritual, and at least until the challenges of Luther’s 95 Theses, the Roman Catholic church was deemed the “church universal”. It was the living temple of God, and its leader – the Bishop of Rome, or Pope – was recognized as God’s Vicar on earth, alone capable of infallibly interpreting God’s will.
We all know this, and I’m sorry to repeat it at such length. At issue, however, is edicts of the Pope which infuse the Grace of God in earthly endeavours. In particular, from what I can understand from the posts on the thread, there is some concern about the 1493 Papal ‘Bull’ by Pope Alexander VI in 1493, linked by some to the term “Doctrine of Discovery”, which IIUC also describes a 19th-Century doctrine (US?) concerning usurping land by conquering nations.
By the time of the 18th century, the Catholic Church was no longer the “Church Universal”. Nevertheless, it was an abiding influence in the remaining British colonies after 1759 and 1783. I believe it totally valid to suggest the BN and later CDN governments were supportive of whatever activities took place in “residential schools”, whether run by Catholics or Protestants, Brothers of Sisters. And I find the pressure on the current Pope to rescind values fully accepted by governments of the day to be, at the least, hypocritical.
Okay, MD, that’s the rant (or one version of it) I cancelled more than once.
Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon
MI USA
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Hi Brian,
Don't read to much into my post, I'm quite sarcastic, & I was just making light not only of the Catholic church, but other christian churches, & organized faiths as well. Not happy with how these organized religions are involved with political policies, & state governents! I think separation of church & state is a better way to go!? In to many instances their actions are not the right ones, & are not with the wishes of a majority of everyone!?? I do realize that historically most religions have been involved in a big way with the histories of their particular regions!? So what can you do?? Just carry on as best we can, I guess!?
I hope I didn't rile you up to much??
Regards,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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vpatrick
MA
MA USA
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Posts: 2474
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Quote: MD, I wrote a comment based on VP’s post using the new forum layout. It was a comment made without reading/hearing VP’s link, and I was dissatisfied with my comments that I tried to remove the post. I could find a way to delete the copy but not the post. Hence my post remained blank.
Hi Brian
My point of my post was to open the link and watch the debate nothing more I found it fascinating maybe not so much to others. It is an investment of time I get it but you did not have to view it or comment on it and I know you deleted your initial post which I did not see and understand why you deleted it because you never watched my link. I was more interested concerning commentary about the debate in the video. Catholic criticisms are easy off the cuff but you never know where a thread will take you do you? So if we are going to not talk off a video I posted as a former Catholic and still in a family where we are predominantly Catholic we are easy targets and possibly justifiably so but many including my uncle get great peace by going to church every Sunday and for many still the Catholic church is a something that gives folks great solace in a messed up world. As I have said Im not smart enough or wise enough to destroy a two thousand year old institution that for millions of people that helps them get through this life. One of the argument I have heard is that people are fallible and so is the church and as the devil infects life he also infects the church.
But if one was to ask me why Im not a Catholic anymore I could go on why I personally left the church but i guess Ill list a few reasons, my mothers best friend was Jewish and my mother wanted to make her the godmother of my brother they wouldn't allow it (she was the best option she loved my brother had resources if my parents died but she was Jewish and who cares but the Catholic Church did), my sister in-law married a divorced man a catholic, even though his marriage was a young one and a disaster they wouldn't allow it. And then when my YaYa was on her death bed the Catholic priests would not come and give her last rights. YaYa was my great aunt she was slow and had mental issues she was the sweetest person you can imagine she prayed the rosary everyday with her beads but they could not be bothered with her we begged them to come they never did, Im sure if she was the mayor or somebody important to them in the community the Catholic church would have sent someone they had two days to do it. This is the opposite of Jesus teachings, Jesus would have sought out my aunt and left the Mayor alone and Jesus would have taken my aunt into his embrace. Jesus would also be aghast by the Vatican and its riches and be aghast by the church and its actions historically.
Its funny though when I watch the Pope give his Christmas mass at the Vatican I am still mesmerized I was defiantly brainwashed in a cult like thing that's hard to get out of my brain. But one of the main reasons why I left the Catholic church is that the church teaches about Jesus his love, forgiveness, his love for lowliest man or woman and inclusion of all for gods love and then the Catholic church does the opposite too many times over and over again for me to be a member. And its to my lifes's great dismay I have never found another church I was comfortable with. Thanks mom and by the way my sainted mom used to hit every mass she could but since the pedophile issues with Cardinal Law she stopped going to Mass.
alot personal there
vpatrick
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nuts
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mikecmaps
CAMARILLO
CA USA
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Group,
no I am not sorry to say that I don’t understand what part of the word military is so hard to understand. Clearly not included is a religious discussion one speaker being a Bishop, a full disciple of one of the sides. Wont address topic since not appropriate to military discussion. There are maybe 100s of various blogs on every topic, please find the appropriate place for your explicitly not military topics and not here. Yes, everyone has freedom of speech and right to own opinion on any all subjects. The subject at hand on this site is military and under that are 15, by my count, subcategories, a full range of military topics are here. It’s a bit rude to inject into a conversation something totally unrelated to what is being discussed. Everyone, please to comment and disagree with me all you want when the topic is military – its what we are talking about.
Michael Collie
mikecmaps
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Hi Mike, I understand your concern but in my time here there has always been an outlet for discussions not directly related to military events. In this case, Vince introduced the topic as a discussion on the historical influence of the RC church on history.
We have had an unofficial ban on certain issues related to current events in politics but that was because of the rancour that ensued from discussions of hot button topics. So far I don't think that there has been a ban on discussions related to religious beliefs.
Vince posted in the "General History" section of the forum and while I did not participate in his thread dealing with the Roman Catholic faith, I think that it is still fair game to introduce it in that section. I would not condone proselytizing amd Vince didn't appear to be engaged in that action. But I presume that General History is a section within the forum that accepts topics not directly related to the military. If I am wrong I hope that the old timers will weigh in to let me know.
Cheers, Mike
George
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Phil Andrade
London
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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You’re right, George.
We indulge discussion about most things here : indeed, I reckon the forum is enhanced, not diminished, by occasional forays into matters other than purely military history.
Our original poster did state that there was something pertinent to military history in the discussion that was sent as a link, and I did allude to the stern resistance of the Catholic League to the Ottoman Empire that was evident at Lepanto.
Let me recommend something that I found deeply moving : a YouTube interview with Simon May.
He’s a professor of German philosophy at KCL and speaks about his German Jewish family, and how his mother sought refuge in Catholicism as a means of denying her Jewishness, at a time in Germany when this became a matter of survival.
I’ll try and send a link.
Edit : https://Youtu.be/XVyPgoOtxdw
In Conversation with Simon May 1 March 2021
The first few minutes are a flyer for the Association of Jewish Refugees, but the best part of one hour is devoted to this gentle, erudite man talking about the experience of his family in harrowing circumstances. He refers to how a traumatised fugitive could find solace in the sheer “ physicality’ of the Catholic Church and its rituals : he himself is a very secular person, but he shows that profound appreciation of human frailty that makes his rendition so powerful.
This link was sent to me by a close friend who lives with his family in Verona, Italy. He is also a secular academic, who is actually a retired interpreter from NATO, and now earns some money as an interpreter for celebrity guests who attend the Book Festival at Mantua. His next guest will be Simon May.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
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Posts: 4720
Joined: 2004
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Mike, interesting point: “No I am not sorry to say that I don’t understand what part of the word military is so hard to understand. Clearly not included is a religious discussion one speaker being a Bishop, a full disciple of one of the sides.” I didn’t listen to VP’s link. But I will admit that the history I read would often make no sense whatsoever without understanding the impact of religion on almost every act – in Europe, the Middle East, and much of the New World – deemed historic since at least the period when Rome accepted Christianity. A bishop worth his salt would be a great addition to the discussion; his education and disposition may provide some tough points to argue with, but only if you think what he’s saying is incontrovertible.
“Wont address topic since not appropriate to military discussion.” Can we talk the Crusades without talking religion? The social and cultural structures which were based on Church hierarchy and orthodoxy? The English Civil War? The use of Conquistadors against the Aztec or the Inca?
I agree that if the discussion were only about faith, you may have a point. But until very late in the game, the Catholic Church (the Church Universal) was – with two other monotheistic faiths (Judaism; Islam – faiths of “the Book”) – a critical, active, vital part of the personal, social, cultural, hierarchical world of Europe. Had I the time, I would address the similarities between Henry VIII and the Pope (I think it was one of the Clements) in terms of authority, responsibility and or fallibility; I’d address Luther’s arrogance. I’d look at the religious significance of the execution of Charles I; I might talk about the trial of Galileo.
I would argue the importance of religion in history, and would argue the impact of the Church hierarchy on all nations and activities. I wouldn’t touch current Christian values. Without making mock of them, I m not a follower of any creed.
Since VP posted, I felt I needed to write something for this thread. Thanks for giving me the hook to do so.
Cheers Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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Seems to me to be rather obvious, under the heading "General History.....history that is NOT necessarily Military-related."
What is so hard to understand about that?
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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scoucer
Berlin
Germany
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Posts: 3223
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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And there was me thinking "General History" was for discussions about Generals. Duuuuh ! 
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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vpatrick
MA
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Posts: 2474
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The Catholics Church affect on history; a great discussion
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I wont dismiss Mikecmaps concerns that my post has nothing to do with "Military History" and it is a charged thread but my point was the conversation in the Youtube link I posted. I found it interesting and it had relevance to my life experience growing up in the Catholic church and it dripped with references to
History and the Churches influence on war, morality and other of its societal impressions good or bad. Since some didn't see it and I get it its long and some folks are annoyed by the speakers which I also get but my simple point of posting was I thought it an interesting video and wanted to share it. But I also get how threads can go a certain way that are out of control of its author and im ok with that.
If we are going to debate the title of thread and not the point of it Ill just add I cant think of any war where religion didn't play a role. Is Military History just a discussion about tactics, how many soldiers a general had or tanks, planes, artillery and how they were maneuvered and out maneuvered the enemy? Or is it a deeper discussion such as how do governments motivate their soldiers? "We are on the right side of God"! How many soldiers were told and thought that and believed that before going up and over a trench never to be seen again by his mom, "God and Country!" Constantine the first kinda Christian Roman emperor believed he saw the Cross and believed it won him the battle changed the Roman empire for ever and the future world for that matter. The Christian world and the Islamic world are still fighting the Crusades while the western world has become much more secular the west still invades Islamic countries from time to time in the name of democracy oil and trade routes its still viewed by many in the Islamic world as a crusade to infuse western values into the Islamic countries. Even Today the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox churches are at odds, the Russian Orthodox Patriarch is behind Putin and his war in Ukraine giving Putin a mandate, while of course the Ukrainian Patriarch has splintered from the Orthodox church and has condemned the invasion. By this action by the patriarchs even in 2022 its clear religion can be viewed nationalistically manipulated formed so they can motivate soldiers to fight for God and country! The poor masses who just want to live in peace raise kids grow old are still faced with the monsters who get into power and have the audacity to use religion to achieve their goals and the masses buy it hook line and sinker still!. Even with all we know and have experienced concerning History, Military History, religion, the human race has learned nothing... we a still duped by nationalism and religious overtones that wip us up for glory of nation to determine who is on the right side of god a god we neither know or have seen and seems to disappear when we slaughter each other.
vpatrick
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nuts
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