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Phil Andrade
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The Nelson Touch
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Trafalgar Day : perhaps the victory of which my countrymen are most proud.
Superb British naval skills, ships manned by fit, well trained and inspired crews, gunnery perfected in its astonishing rate of fire, and, above all, a leader of legendary courage and charisma.
Folklore regarding Horatio Lord Nelson is ubiquitous in British society, from the names of pubs to the towering statue in the square named after his most celebrated victory, which cost him his life.
Even in market slang his name lives on. In cockney bravado, the number 111 was referred to as “ a Nelson “ : one arm, one eye and one arsehole !
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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George
Centre Hastings
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Quote: Trafalgar Day : perhaps the victory of which my countrymen are most proud.
Superb British naval skills, ships manned by fit, well trained and inspired crews, gunnery perfected in its astonishing rate of fire, and, above all, a leader of legendary courage and charisma.
Folklore regarding Horatio Lord Nelson is ubiquitous in British society, from the names of pubs to the towering statue in the square named after his most celebrated victory, which cost him his life.
Even in market slang his name lives on. In cockney bravado, the number 111 was referred to as “ a Nelson “ : one arm, one eye and one arsehole !
Regards, Phil
Phil, I don't know much about the man other than the stories of his victory. What was he like as a man? What did British sailors think of him? Is the "arsehole" comment indicative of how he was perceived or is that just Cockney humour?
Cheers,
George
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Phil Andrade
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Cockneys refer to arsehole in two ways.
First and foremost, an arsehole is just as derogatory as its North American counterpart “ asshole”.
There is a nuanced secondary meaning, implying visceral courage.
An example that I used to hear “ You have to be a real arsehole to do that, but it takes a lot of arsehole to do it. “
You’ve done a really silly but an exceptionally brave thing, in other words.
“Silly as arseholes” is a favourite cockney expression.
No courageous attributes there, just a foolish person.
It took some arsehole to go up and ask that pretty girl to dance. The lament of many young men in a disco who sought refuge in drinking beer while an admired rival took the plunge and secured himself a partner on the dance floor.
The traditional rhyming slang substitutes the word “bottle”. Bottle and glass = arse. He had a lot of bottle, meaning he was brave.
I lost my bottle, or I bottled out, meaning I lost my nerve.
Nelson had plenty of bottle !
Forgive me, I do go off on these tangents now and then.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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George
Centre Hastings
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So if I'm ever in London again Phil and someone says, "you arsehole", how should I take it? 
George
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Phil Andrade
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Quote:So if I'm ever in London again Phil and someone says, "you arsehole", how should I take it? George
Badly.
But if he said you’ve got a lot of arsehole, mate, or a lot of bottle, then you should be flattered .
If he told you that you’ve got no arsehole, he’d be calling you a coward.
Likewise if you’d got no bottle.
If you’ve lost your bottle - or “ bottled it” - it means you’ve chickened out.
It gets convoluted and silly . The slang ‘ arris is used to infer Aristotle, which rhymes with bottle, so if a cockney shouts “ shift yer ‘arris ! “ he’s telling you to shift your arse, get out of the way. It’s old fashioned now, and replaced with the patois like slang suffused with Afro Caribbean and Asian expressions. The ethnic diversity of modern London makes the traditional slang very obsolete.
Regards Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Phil Andrade
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This detour I made into the intricacies of slang mustn’t allow me to drift away from my original intention : to think of how notable battles and celebrated military leaders can proliferate in society through the folklore.
In Britain we have the “ Dunkirk Spirit “ or the “Blitz Spirit “. Nothing comparable emanated from WW1, as far as I can see.
The “ Nelson Touch” still resonates as a yardstick for inspired leadership and conspicuous success.
Do Americans latch on to any comparable figures as a byword for greatness?
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Brian Grafton
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“Trafalgar Day : perhaps the victory of which my countrymen are most proud.
Superb British naval skills, ships manned by fit, well trained and inspired crews, gunnery perfected in its astonishing rate of fire, and, above all, a leader of legendary courage and charisma.
Folklore regarding Horatio Lord Nelson is ubiquitous in British society, from the names of pubs to the towering statue in the square named after his most celebrated victory, which cost him his life.
Even in market slang his name lives on. In cockney bravado, the number 111 was referred to as “ a Nelson “ : one arm, one eye and one arsehole !”
Phil, not quite certain where you want this thread to go. I get the fact that Trafalgar gets most of the glory, and that Nelson’s statue sits centred in Trafalgar Square covered in pigeon shit. IIRC, Bridgetown in Barbados also has a Trafalgar Square, or at least a Nelson dedicated square; I believe he quartered his fleet there at one time. Yet it was but one of his triumphs; if there are tributes to the Battle of the Nile or to Copenhagen, e.g., I’m unaware of them.
I agree with things like the “Dunkirk Spirit” and “Blitz Spirit”, I agree. But both are civilian responses to British travails. And since I can’t remember any term used for civilians to denote the victory at Trafalgar, I don’t get the link between Nelson and civilian spirit. I sense I’m being rather dense here.
Yep, the terms are both WW2 specific, but still exist to be reused. In fact, after Liz Truss, both may become applicable again. But they have nothing to do with Nelson. Or Trafalgar. WW1 didn’t have the same kind of adages, though perhaps it deserved some. Jutland, The Somme, the Marne and hosts of other battles you know better than I are as deserving of becoming terms of broader application, but we’re stuck with Waterloo, a century distant.
If you’re looking for terms which are linked with certain wars, or certain battles, they are out there. The one which leaps to mind as associated with WW1, e.g., is “blighty”. Transliterated from Hindi by British soldiers, it has entered the language as a general term for “home”. In WW1, of course, a “Blighty” was a wound serious enough to get you home to the UK.
Won’t go any further because I may be way of your intention.
Cheers Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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scoucer
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Phil,
Tirpitz, in developing his pre- WW1 naval strategy in the event of war with Britain, actually referred to the "Nelson Touch". Because of the "Nelson Touch" he believed the British Navy would attack , bombard and blockade the german North sea ports. That is why on the declaration of war The High Seas Fleet gathered at Wilhelmshaven to take on the anticipated attack. As it became clear that the attack wasn´t coming Tirpitz told his officiers " So the cowardly British have lost their Nelson´s Touch."
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon
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The Nelson Touch
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Quote: This detour I made into the intricacies of slang mustn’t allow me to drift away from my original intention : to think of how notable battles and celebrated military leaders can proliferate in society through the folklore.
In Britain we have the “ Dunkirk Spirit “ or the “Blitz Spirit “. Nothing comparable emanated from WW1, as far as I can see.
The “ Nelson Touch” still resonates as a yardstick for inspired leadership and conspicuous success.
Do Americans latch on to any comparable figures as a byword for greatness?
Regards, Phil
Hi Phil,
I would say John Paul Jones was #1, then bring up others, Oliver Hazard Perry, Limits & Halsey from WWII, David Farragut Civil War, & George Dewey also at this time!?
Sail on!
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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Phil Andrade
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The Nelson Touch
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Brian, Trevor and Dave,
Apologies : having kicked this thread off, I’ve been distracted by NYG and his postings on the This Day in History thread.
Damn the torpedoes ! Full speed ahead !
Oh yes, Farragut: brilliant citation Dave : really fits the bill
I like your allusion to German appreciation of the Nelson Touch, Trevor, thanks.
Brian, I want to revisit your comments and try and do them justice.
Must edit here : Brian, Nelson folklore emanates from Copenhagen, too.
“ Nelson’s blind eye “ is/ was ubiquitous as an expression of the wisdom of overlooking something if the purpose suits.
“ I see no ships “ is synonymous with that.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Lightning
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Of Nelson, there was an anecdote from Arthur Wellesley (future Duke of Wellington) who recalled his one and only meeting with Britain's pre-eminent naval commander. Summoned to London for a briefing after campaigining in India, he caught sight of Lord Nelson impatiently also waiting an interview with Lord Castlereagh (Sir Arthur having recognised Lord Nelson from portraits). Nelson eyed up the rather plainly dressed army officer in his midst, offering little conversation other than to talk about himself and holding himself aloof, almost treating this officer with contempt as he peacocked in the waiting room. Nelson's curiousity having got the better of him and he slipped away to find out just who this gentleman was who refused to submit to his presence. His question was answered and he returned in a completely changed manner. He engaged in conversation with Wellesley with the courtesy and respect he deserved and the two men had a spirited conversation of the current strategic situation. Nelson was called away to his interview and the two departed, never to meet again as Nelson was killed at Trafalgar.
On remembering the meeting, the Duke of Wellington recalled in his usual prudent style that 'I don’t know that I ever had a conversation that interested me more'. Wellington, a difficult man to please at the best of times, clearly held Nelson in the highest regard.
Nelson was a flamboyant man and like all brilliant people, prone to egotism and vanity. He was also a commander of genius and proved the right (perhaps only) man for the job in the most desperate of times that Britain would face until the U-Boat campaigns of the First and Second World Wars.
Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
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Phil Andrade
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Brilliant anecdote, Colin !
These personal encounters bring the narrative to life, don’t they ?
Nelson, I suspect, might be cast as a social climber.
He was a parson’s son from Norfolk : solid , respectable background, but lacking the more aristocratic provenance of Wellington.
His reaction to his army counterpart - on discovering who he was - smacks of sycophantic behaviour.
But the Royal Navy was more meritocratic than the army, and was conspicuously successful on account of this.
Napoleon Buonaparte had wanted to join the RN as a youth, such was the universal allure of this unique institution. A century later, Kaiser Bill of Germany was also smitten by its image .
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis
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Was Hornblower based on Nelson?
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Brian Grafton
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OP, that’s the popular myth, largely because of the name. In truth, I believe that many of the fictional RN heroes of the age of sail – Horatio Hornblower, Richard Bolitho, and Jack Aubrey – are drawn from the incredible number of actions undertaken by the RN.
The Wiki article offers an interesting read of this fictional giant. Most pertinent, perhaps, is the following: Quote:There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste. The actions of the Royal Navy at the time, documented in official reports, provided much of the material for Hornblower's fictional adventures.[2]
The name "Horatio" was inspired by the character in William Shakespeare's Hamlet and chosen also because of its association with contemporary figures such as Nelson.[3]: 90 The surname "Hornblower" comes from Arthur Hornblow, a Hollywood producer who was a colleague and a friend of Forester's.[4][5]
Forester's original inspiration was an old copy of the Naval Chronicle that described the effective dates of the Treaty of Ghent.[3]: 81 It was possible for two countries to be at war in one part of the world after a peace was obtained months before in another because of the time required to communicate around the world. The burdens that this placed on captains far from home led Forester to invent a character struggling with the stresses of a "man alone".[3]: 82
Forester wrote the Hornblower series to avoid entanglements with real-world history. Hornblower is always off on another mission when a great naval victory occurs during the Napoleonic Wars.
Frederick Marryat has been identified as "the father of the seafaring adventure novel from which all others followed, from C. S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower to Patrick O'Brian's Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin"[6] Hornblower and the eponymous protagonist of Marryat's novel Peter Simple both start their careers rather unpromisingly and without influential friends, but advance through hard work, honesty and bravery. Both fight duels before their careers have properly started and both are taken prisoner early in their careers.
Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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Phil Andrade
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Thanks for stepping into the breach here, Brian : since I’ve never read any Hornblower ( at least, I don’t remember reading the stories) , I’m not equipped to answer the question.
Dad used to read them avidly, and I definitely enjoyed the TV drama that was screened in several episodes in recent decades.
I reckon the Napoleonic Wars give enormous scope for public reflection and there’s a wealth of literature that exemplifies this.
We have Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe series that affords us an army counterpart of the Hornblower series.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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scoucer
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Quote:
We have Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe series that affords us an army counterpart of the Hornblower series.
Regards, Phil
Awful. Hated them.
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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George
Centre Hastings
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Quote:Quote:
We have Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe series that affords us an army counterpart of the Hornblower series.
Regards, Phil
Awful. Hated them. Trevor
Hi Trevor. Why did you hate the Sharpe series? I just took it as pretty good entertainment. Were there historical inaccuracies that grated on you?
George
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Phil Andrade
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Here’s forty shillings on the drum
For those who’ll volunteer to come
‘list to fight to fight the foe today
Over the hills and far away !
That ditty was the theme tune of the TV series.
I used to walk into my Smithfield Market pitch, singing it aloud, and then turn to the staff and shout out
FORM SQUARE SHARPE !!
I reckon they probably hated it, too !
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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George
Centre Hastings
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For old times sake then, Trevor
[Read More]
I can't seem to get full reruns of episodes in English. French and Spanish yes but not in English.
BTW, my wife says that the content of the show doesn't really matter so long as Sean Bean is in every frame.
Cheers,
George
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Brian Grafton
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Phil’s point, of course, is that Cornwell, with the Sharpe series, attempted to hook into the long-term public interest in Hornblower and the RN in the age of sail. Trevor’s response to Sharpe doesn’t change the fact that Cornwell created a fictional figure for the army equivalent to the Hornblowers, Bolithos and Aubreys. I understand that Sharpe enjoyed great popularity; that doesn’t mean everybody has to like the series. Personally, I read but two Sharpe novels before opting out. My choice, just as it’s Phil’s choice not to read Hornblower.
Cheers Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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Lightning
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Sharpe must be overdue for a remake? The limited budgets really show in the battle scenes in particular, which are usually a couple dozen red coats brawling with a similar number of Frenchmen. Unusually, all the participants look Turkish. That said, I largely enjoyed them and it's one of the few historical series I can watch with my wife without her complaining too much.
Tbh I never cared much for the Sharpe novels; like many historical novels, Sharpe as the main character seems to be involved in every major action or interacts with every major historical figure.
Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
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Phil Andrade
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The Nelson Touch
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Quote: Sharpe must be overdue for a remake? The limited budgets really show in the battle scenes in particular, which are usually a couple dozen red coats brawling with a similar number of Frenchmen. Unusually, all the participants look Turkish. That said, I largely enjoyed them and it's one of the few historical series I can watch with my wife without her complaining too much.
Tbh I never cared much for the Sharpe novels; like many historical novels, Sharpe as the main character seems to be involved in every major action or interacts with every major historical figure.
Cheers,
Colin
A bit redolent of the Flashman series by George Macdonald Fraser.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Lightning
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Hi Phil,
Yes, very much so. I never cared much for the Flashman series either. I think I managed one book and didn't read any more.
There is a wealth of literature from this time period. It's probably long overdue some modern adaptations in film and on the telly. Joaquin Phoenix will appear onscreen as Napoleon (next year?) in Ridley Scott's biography of the wee Corsican. I think it's called 'Kitbag'? I'm looking forward to that.
Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
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Phil Andrade
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Quote: Hi Phil,
Yes, very much so. I never cared much for the Flashman series either. I think I managed one book and didn't read any more.
There is a wealth of literature from this time period. It's probably long overdue some modern adaptations in film and on the telly. Joaquin Phoenix will appear onscreen as Napoleon (next year?) in Ridley Scott's biography of the wee Corsican. I think it's called 'Kitbag'? I'm looking forward to that.
Cheers,
Colin
Colin,
If Joaquin Phoenix can bring just one iota of the acting skill he displayed while playing The Joker to his depiction of Buonaparte, that will be a film worth watching !
Regards , Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Lightning
Glasgow
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Absolutely, Phil. I’m really excited about it. Ridley Scott’s films are usually good value. I thought his film of the Crusades, ‘Kingdom of Heaven’, was heavily underrated, particularly when you view the Director’s Cut.
Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
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