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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3293
Joined: 2007
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Day Of Days....
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79 years ago, on this date, the liberation of France..and ultimately Europe...from the Nazi yoke was begun with the allied landings on the Normandy coast. It was an unbelievable logistical operation. Yet, with all the planning, all the training, all the courage shown by the American, Canadian and British assault forces, it was a very close thing. Eisenhower wrote a message to read in case of disaster and failure, and until the beachhead at Omaha was secured, it was very much in doubt.
79 years may seem "ancient" but my neighbor two houses up was there, not in the early waves, but was in an Engineer Battalion (9th) that went in hours after the initial landings. He turned 100 three weeks ago, but there are thousands still among us who made that "close thing" work and we should celebrate them, the lost, and remember the many years so many families spent with only memories of those they loved. It truly was the "Day of Days." Always remember it.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6386
Joined: 2004
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Day Of Days....
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A close thing indeed, especially in regard to the weather which posed a terrifying dilemma.
Just for a moment there appeared to be a window of opportunity between the dreadful storms : there was no certainty that the storms would abate, and the risks attendant upon launching the invasion in those circumstances were mind boggling.
A lot of men drowned as they approached the beaches.
I befriended an old veteran in my market days, and he’d been wounded in North Africa in 1942, sent back to Blighty to train the recruits who were being marshalled for the invasion : his close pal was carrying a heavy radio transmitter as they were about to land on Gold or Sword Beach, and the poor lad just fell into the water and sank like a stone. He didn’t have a chance, and the old fellow telling me the story of this was clearly upset, even though this was sixty or more years later.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
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Posts: 1457
Joined: 2005
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Day Of Days....
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"I have full confidence in your devotion to duty and skill in battle.
We will accept nothing less than full Victory!"
General Eisenhower
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6386
Joined: 2004
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Day Of Days....
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A very timely reminder by the British military historian and commentator Max Hastings in the Times newspaper a few days ago : while D-day is rightly commemorated as the dramatic and epic event that it was, it’s too easily overlooked how intense, bloody and ferocious the following eighty days of fighting were in the ensuing Battle of Normandy.
Fewer than one tenth of all British and Commonwealth deaths in the campaign were attributable to D-day itself. I would guess that the same applies to US figures.
For the Germans, the later phases of the battle in Normandy became a massacre of dreadful dimensions.
Then there were the civilians who perished as the city of Caen and many lesser townships and hamlets were pulverised by bombardment from the air and from artillery fire. : an appalling number, fifteen thousand or more.
Compared with the attritional battles of 1914-18, the Allies attained spectacular success at relatively low cost in lives, using metal and technology to replace manpower. But for the unfortunate men in the rifle companies- a very small percentage of the forces deployed- the casualty rates were dreadful and not so very different from those of the earlier war.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
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Posts: 1892
Joined: 2010
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Day Of Days....
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The Center of Military History has books and booklets online regarding the invasion, from Harrison's "Cross-channel Attack" to more focused works on the individual beaches and on into the bocage.
Much fun digitizing those.
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3293
Joined: 2007
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Day Of Days....
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It is entirely correct to say that D-Day was just one day of many bloody days to come.
So much attention is payed to an in initial development in an engagement....the flag raising on Iwo Jima comes to mind...yet nothing was decided when that event occurred, fighting continued for about a month before the Island was secured. Some of those men who raised that flag died in combat within days afterwards.
True, fierce fighting in hedgerow country would go on for some time...in the case of Caen, it would be measured in months before success was truly gained. The great debate about Normandy is whether the disposition of the Panzer Divisions , most under Supreme HQ Command would have turned back the invasion, and how that would happened..or not. Would Rommel, if he had charge of the armored infantry, been able to position them as he thought he could ( the terrain in Normandy was more difficult for armored infantry to maneuver as was his experience on flat open terrain?) And allied air support would certainly been critical if the weather conditions allowed, many tanks would have been destroyed in route.
But the key moment was in those first 48 hours. I seem to recall that only 1 Panzer division was seriously engaged on D-Day.
Day-Day on the Normandy coast was the "eggs in one basket" moment, for the war in Europe.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
Joined: 2009
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Day Of Days....
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June 7, 8 and 9 were extremely difficult days for the British and Canadians as they made their approach to Caen. The attacks on the small towns resulted in many deaths but the German panzers were beaten back, albeit at cost.
This was also the period in which the the murders of a number of Canadian and British soldiers took place. 156 POW were murdered between D+1 and D+10.
Names of villages like Authie and Bretteville-l'Orgueilleuse are names that I recall were costly battles for the Canadian 3rd division. At Authie, two companies of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders were trapped in the village and forced to surrender. The 12th SS appeared to have been hopped up on something because they began to shoot prisoners and to toss their bodies into the roadway so that tanks could crush the bodies into the road. 37 were killed in this way and the people named a square to commemorate the men murdered after them. It is called the Place Des 37 Canadiens.
A few French civilians were killed as they came out of hiding to try to stop the massacre taking place in their streets.
The counter attack at Bretteville was a near run thing as the Regina Rifles turned back multiple attacks by the 12th SS (Hitler Youth)
I have a book in my modest library by Mark Zuehlke called Holding Juno. While focused on the efforts of the CDN 3rd Division, it does do justice to the British and Canadian forces who through determined effort ensured that they would not be pushed back into the sea.
As Morris said, it took a long time before Caen fell and the Falaise pocket was closed but the British and Canadians did fight the German panzers to a standstill and defeated them eventually with a great deal of blood spilled.
Cheers,
George
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Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
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Posts: 4720
Joined: 2004
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Day Of Days....
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Quote: "I have full confidence in your devotion to duty and skill in battle.
We will accept nothing less than full Victory!"
General Eisenhower
DT, I’m not being nasty or glib when I ask this: What the hell does that comment mean?
He’s the boss, the C-i-C. He’s writing this about the same time he’s writing what he will say if the landing fails and the Allies are driven off the beach. He had to write that: he has not a single choice to write anything else. A boss projects confidence, after all. Hello, Haig, WW1: “…with our backs to the wall …” etc. Ike came very close to withdrawing support from Omaha, IIUC, and the entire Overlord effort may have collapsed as a result.
But …
Think of the kids who are approaching the beach. Paul Fussell suggests most of them in the US Army were boys, rather than men. Many were barely clear of school; many had no real concept of anything at all except whatever equivalent of Civics class they had to take. They’re scared stiff, wondering if they’ll die before their first sexual experience, chance to vote – even a job. What does Ike’s message mean to them? Is is a blessing, an assurance that all will be well on the day? Is it a mockery – the high brass waving you away while they stay safe in England? Do the “kids” even hear what is said, or are they just praying they don’t disgrace themselves, don’t let down their buddies.
Ike was taking on the weight of more than 50,000 souls with that statement. I guess that’s the burden of command, and an awesome burden it is. What I can’t begin to grasp is whether his comment had any meaning for those boys (of all nations, of course, but I see Ike speaking to his virgin US soldiers rather specifically) who would see the ramp drop and move forward to meet enemy fire.
Thanks, Dan.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3293
Joined: 2007
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Day Of Days....
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Eisenhower was informed that the casualty figures among the airborne units could be as high as 70 to 75 percent...maybe worse. There are a number of photos of "Ike" personally greeting those men at their staging areas. I heard that he made personal conversations with them, relaxing " HI son, where you from." -" Montana sir." - "Montana? Great fishing in Montana." As he made those rounds he knew that two-thirds of those boys might not make it at all, or be badly wounded. He just wanted to see and talk a bit.
I have no idea what a man like Eisenhower felt...no idea of the heavy responsibility to those men and all the others. Six packs of cigarettes a day wouldn`t relieve the stress yet he tried that....and if the invasion failed? I am sure he would see the faces of those men in his sleep.
I think in some way...he was making those comments to himself. "Those men I met with, spent a few moments with...are the best we have to offer. If anyone can.....they can."
As to withdrawing support at Omaha, there was little movement seen from Bradley`s vantage point. Men in small groups on the beach tried to start improvising, and it was the Commanders of the Battleships and cruisers who dis-obeyed orders to stay out of range and not risk their ships who then moved forward and did that very thing, blasting pillboxes and providing the only effective and lasting close artillery support that allowed the men to get off that beach.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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GaryNJ
Cumberland
NJ USA
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Posts: 254
Joined: 2010
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Day Of Days....
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Quote: As to withdrawing support at Omaha, there was little movement seen from Bradley`s vantage point. Men in small groups on the beach tried to start improvising, and it was the Commanders of the Battleships and cruisers who dis-obeyed orders to stay out of range and not risk their ships who then moved forward and did that very thing, blasting pillboxes and providing the only effective and lasting close artillery support that allowed the men to get off that beach.
Morris,
I was under the impression that it was the destroyers, US and British, that came in dangerously close to the Omaha beach to provide the essential fire support.
Gary
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3293
Joined: 2007
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Day Of Days....
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Gary, thanks for the correction. You are right...the destroyers with shallower drafts, came in close to provide directed artillery support. Dangerously close.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
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Posts: 1457
Joined: 2005
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Day Of Days....
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Quote:Quote: As to withdrawing support at Omaha, there was little movement seen from Bradley`s vantage point. Men in small groups on the beach tried to start improvising, and it was the Commanders of the Battleships and cruisers who dis-obeyed orders to stay out of range and not risk their ships who then moved forward and did that very thing, blasting pillboxes and providing the only effective and lasting close artillery support that allowed the men to get off that beach. Morris, I was under the impression that it was the destroyers, US and British, that came in dangerously close to the Omaha beach to provide the essential fire support. Gary
Indeed it was the destroyers, British and US who came in close to shore to continue fire support. At Omaha DD's sailed in from 800-1,000 yards to provide on the spot fire support, heck they had started firing around 3,000 yards initially behind a smoke screen but getting in a bit closer allowed sailors to make better observations. These Sailors/Spotters mentioned observing tanks firing at positions unknown to the sailors as designated points of fire but, seeing the tanks firing was good enough for the spotters on the ships who provided information for the ship gunners to follow up on the tankers shooting.
"Colonel B. B. Talley on Omaha Beach sent a message to Major General Leonard T. Gerow, commander of V Corps on Omaha: “Troops moving up slope of Fox, Green, and Red Beaches. I join you in thanking God for our Navy.”
At Sword Beach, British destroyers had to deal with two E-boats one of which cruised yards away from the HMS Swift, then proceeded to; "hit the Svenner, a British destroyer loaned to Norway.., and manned by a Norwegian crew. She broke in half. The Swift’s captain, ignoring orders, went to pick up about 100 survivors..."
So not only providing close in support but the DD's were tasked with protecting other ships off shore, dealing with E-boat and air attacks plus fire coming from German artillery on land, while tasking themselves to provide close in support for the troops as many tanks and artillery from US/Brit ships were just not coming in as planned, and in several instances picking up survivors from sunken, damaged craft and/or knocked overboard, etc.
Yes, the DD's during Operation Neptune fought with determination, skill and bravery second to none and, did so up close and personal.
Dwight Shepler's, "Target of Opportunity'
[Read More]
Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
Joined: 2009
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Day Of Days....
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Pardon my ignorance, Dan but is DD the type of destroyer? I read the article and did see that the registration number for some USN vessels was DD. It's just that whenever I see DD I think of duplex drive tanks.
Cheers,
George
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
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Posts: 1457
Joined: 2005
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Day Of Days....
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George:
For the US Navy, DD (destroyer) and DE (destroyer escort), were a few nomenclatures used for destroyers.
Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
Joined: 2009
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Day Of Days....
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Thanks Dan.
George
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
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Posts: 1457
Joined: 2005
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Day Of Days....
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By this date, June 20th, allied airpower had shown its teeth exacting a heavy, costly burden on German transportation. As the sky's cleared, Brit and US fighters prowled from above looking for German ground movements and exacted a heavy toll on such.
Lieutenant John Eisenhower, newly commissioned son of the Supreme Commander of the Allied forces, commented to his father "[y]ou would never get away with this if you didn't have air supremacy" shortly after the Normandy campaign commenced; General Eisenhower responded: "If I didn't have air supremacy, I wouldn't be here!"
The fighters and bombers swarming above blunted the ability of the Germans to effectively reinforce their forces all the while as allied troops and support poured over the sands of the invaded beaches and headed inland.
Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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