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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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On September 28, 1781, General George Washington, commanding a force of 17,000 French and Continental troops, begins the siege known as the Battle of Yorktown against British General Lord Charles Cornwallis and a contingent of 9,000 British troops at Yorktown, Virginia, in the most important battle of the Revolutionary War.
Earlier, the French fleet commanded by Francois, Count de Grasse, departed St. Domingue (the then-French colony that is now Haiti) for the Chesapeake Bay, just as Cornwallis chose Yorktown, at the mouth of the Chesapeake, as his base. Washington realized that it was time to act. He ordered Marquis de Lafayette and an American army of 5,000 troops to block Cornwallis’ escape from Yorktown by land while the French naval fleet blocked the British escape by sea. By September 28, Washington had completely encircled Cornwallis and Yorktown with the combined forces of Continental and French troops. After three weeks of non-stop bombardment, both day and night, from artillery, Cornwallis surrendered to Washington in the field at Yorktown on October 17, 1781, effectively ending the War for Independence.
Pleading illness, Cornwallis did not attend the formal surrender ceremony, held on October 19. Instead, his second in command, General Charles O’Hara, carried Cornwallis’ sword to the American and French commanders.
Although the war persisted on the high seas and in other theaters, including with Native American and British forces in the west, the Patriot victory at Yorktown ended fighting in the American colonies. Peace negotiations began in 1782, and on September 3, 1783, the Treaty of Paris was signed, formally recognizing the United States as a free and independent nation after eight years of war.
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The RN couldn't save Cornwallis!
The bottom line is that a fledgling country, the United States of America defeated on the land and on the sea, the greatest military power of its time, Great Britain, and declared its Independence from British rule.
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Wazza
Sydney
Australia
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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I wonder if the British reserves being sent from New York would have made much of a difference with the French and Rebels holding such advantageous positions around Yorktown?
Seems the British couldn't take advantage of the weakened state of finances and supplies that were plaguing the Continentals to tactically defeat them or expand further territory.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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The British fleet actually sailed past Chesapeake Bay and headed to New York when they did not see the French fleet supposedly sailing from the Caribbean.
When the French fleet arrived a Chesapeake it was too late. The British fleet could not get through to support Cornwallis and were defeated by the French fleet at the Battle of the Chesapeake (or Battle of the Capes)
The US forces owe a great deal to the French for this victory on land and on the sea. One wonders what the result would have been without the French.
The French saw an opportunity to reestablish itself in North America and especially in the Caribbean where the profitable sugar islands were. They would have taken British controlled territory if the opportunity presented itself.
The RN did have its revenge for Yorktown when it destroyed a French fleet in 1782in the Battle of the Saintes (or Dominica).
Having lost her colonies Britain was anxious to protect its interests in the West Indies. The French had designs on the British island of Jamaica. The British fleet under Admiral Rodney met the French fleet of the Comte de Grasse just off Dominica.
And the British had their revenge and re-established their position as the pre-eminent naval power in North America. Four French ships of the line were captured and so was De Grasse.
The Battle of the Saintes was the last major battle of the Revolutionary War and it had a profound effect on the negotiations to end the Revolutionary War. The rebels had lost their main benefactor, the French who, eventually, made an independent peace with Britain.
American negotiators softened with the loss of French support and gave up on the idea that the rest of BNA including Newfoundland and its fisheries would be forfeit. They postponed an attack to boot the British out of Charleston because the support of the French would have been needed there.
The Americans aided by their French allies, won their independence. No doubt about that. But the terms could have been much worse had the most powerful navy in the world had not reasserted dominance at the Battle of the Saintes.
Cheers,
George
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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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The western terms were that the United States would gain all of the area east of the Mississippi River, north of Florida, and south of Canada. The northern boundary would be almost the same as they are today.
The United States would gain fishing rights off Nova Scotian coasts.
Historians have often commented that the treaty was very generous to the United States in terms of greatly-enlarged boundaries.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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The Treaty was flawed and resulted in disputes.
I believe that the US acquired some fishing rights off Newfoundland rather than Nova Scotia. The Grand Banks of NFLD were world renowned as a fishery. US fisherman were not allowed to dry their catch on NFLD. They were allowed to do so on unoccupied bays and coves of Nova Scotia.
The US was also supposed to provide restitution to the Loyalists who had lost property and other assets during the war. This was ignored by many of the states compelling the British to offer some compensation to the Loyalists. Many states put impediments in the way of Loyalists who had claims to make.
Navigation of the Mississippi was supposed to be free and open to Britons and Americans.
Quote:The navigation of the river Mississippi, from its source to the ocean, shall forever remain free and open to the subjects of Great Britain and the citizens of the United States.
Has this article ever been rescinded or addressed in subsequent treaties between the US and GB?
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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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Great Britain violated the treaty stipulation that it should relinquish control of forts in United States territory "with all convenient speed." British troops remained stationed at six forts in the Great Lakes region and at two at the north end of Lake Champlain. The British also built an additional fort in present-day Ohio in 1794, during the Northwest Indian War.
That's why the US kicked the Brits out of the Ohio Valley.
With the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, the United States extended its control beyond the Mississippi and the river fell inside its territory. Given that it no longer considered the Mississippi to be an external border, it would be unlikely that Britain would expect the United States to continue allowing British subjects free navigation of the Mississippi River.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Good Lord you can be so obdurate. I just finished explaining that the British left after a negotiation that produced Jay's Treaty but you persist in using words like "kicked out" when the voices of diplomats worked to see a peaceful end to the dispute over the six forts.
And Jay's Treaty did not resolve many issues. That is why the general public didn't like it but the British did agree to leave by June of 1796. Historical fact, my friend.
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NYGiant
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Recall that the British had captured Detroit.
With the capture of Fort Detroit, Michigan Territory was declared a part of Great Britain and Shawnee chief Tecumseh was able to increase his raids against American positions in the frontier area. Hull’s surrender was a severe blow to American morale. In September 1813, U.S. General William Henry Harrison, the future president, recaptured Detroit.
The battle of the Thames made sure the British were kicked out of the Ohio Valley. The battle gave control of the western theater to the United States in the War of 1812.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Quote: Recall that the British had captured Detroit.
With the capture of Fort Detroit, Michigan Territory was declared a part of Great Britain and Shawnee chief Tecumseh was able to increase his raids against American positions in the frontier area. Hull’s surrender was a severe blow to American morale. In September 1813, U.S. General William Henry Harrison, the future president, recaptured Detroit.
The battle of the Thames made sure the British were kicked out of the Ohio Valley. The battle gave control of the western theater to the United States in the War of 1812.
And why is that important, NYGiant? You know, impact on the prosecution of the war, influence on treaty negotiations etc.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Quote: Recall that the British had captured Detroit.
With the capture of Fort Detroit, Michigan Territory was declared a part of Great Britain and Shawnee chief Tecumseh was able to increase his raids against American positions in the frontier area. Hull’s surrender was a severe blow to American morale. In September 1813, U.S. General William Henry Harrison, the future president, recaptured Detroit.
The battle of the Thames made sure the British were kicked out of the Ohio Valley. The battle gave control of the western theater to the United States in the War of 1812.
And why is that important, NYGiant? You know, impact on the prosecution of the war, influence on treaty negotiations etc.
Why was this success limited to the west and why did it not result in success on the Niagara Peninsula, Lake Ontario, Lower Canada and the Atlantic coast?
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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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Michigan territory declared part of GB. We put a stop to that. We took back what was ours, by treaty and winning the American Revolution.
As you are well aware, both sides retained their own territorial integrity.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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And of course the battle would have been entirely unnecessary had saner heads prevailed in the US and US troops had not crossed into British territory to terrorize the peaceful citizens of Upper Canada. You make it sound as though the British engaged in a pre-emptive strike across the border resulting in the Americans having to push back.
The British and the colonists and the First Nations were defending themselves from a rapacious nation to the south.
And no I do not think that impressment, an activity practiced by most nations including the USN was a sufficiently egregious act to compel the US to attack a peaceful colony. Despite denials from some US sources, I think that annexation was on the minds of at least the War Hawks and men like Thomas Jefferson.
I have used the Latin expression status quo ante bellum many times during this exchange and so the US gained no territorial advantage and the British returned Maine to the US.
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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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Well, let's get our facts straight...the RN taking American seamen off of American merchant ships. Even today's historians say that was the reason for the War of 1812.
And the War caused the RN to stop that practice.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Quote: Well, let's get our facts straight...the RN taking American seamen off of American merchant ships. Even today's historians say that was the reason for the War of 1812.
And the War caused the RN to stop that practice.
Most historians have a list of causes for the war and many also suggest that the US made dreadful mistake all because it felt that its honour had been sullied. There is no single explanation for the outbreak of this war. No historian worth his mettle will declare that the US declared war in 1812 for one reason only, impressment.
British historians may even describe the US declaration of war and subsequent invasion of Canada as a betrayal and proof that the much lauded constitutional goals describing certain unalienable rights were puffery and hypocritical. Not my words, but they were lifted from this Smithsonian article that describes four different versions of the war dependent upon one's frame of reference.
Quote:The truth is, the British were never happy. In fact, their feelings ranged from disbelief and betrayal at the beginning of the war to outright fury and resentment at the end. They regarded the U.S. protests against Royal Navy impressment of American seamen as exaggerated whining at best, and a transparent pretext for an attempt on Canada at worst. It was widely known that Thomas Jefferson coveted all of North America for the United States. When the war started, he wrote to a friend: “The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, and the final expulsion of England from the American continent.” Moreover, British critics interpreted Washington’s willingness to go to war as proof that America only paid lip service to the ideals of freedom, civil rights and constitutional government. In short, the British dismissed the United States as a haven for blackguards and hypocrites. . (source: Smithsonian)
[Read More]
NYGiant, you can keep saying that the War ended the practice of impressment and I will keep saying that you are incorrect and I could provide several references to prove my point. There was nothing on the part of US military action that stopped impressment. The USN was a tiny naval force compared to the RN and could do nothing to stop the practice.
Military successes on land did not stop it. The RN stopped the practice when it was no longer deemed necessary. I suspect that had the War of 1812 ended but the war against the French had continued, so too would the practice of impressment.
Interesting article from the New Yorker that gives an synopsis of this war, the reasons that it started and why it continued. You know James Madison once declared that if he had known that British Orders in Council that restricted US trade had already been rescinded, he would have called off the war. And yet, he did not even after he was informed.
[Read More]
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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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Nice article.
1. In “The Weight of Vengeance” (Oxford), a new study marking the war’s bicentennial year, Troy Bickham repeats the refrain: “There is no single explanation for the outbreak of war in June 1812.” But Bickham has a trick up his sleeve. It turns out that he’s an optimist. He thinks that it is possible to say what the war was about. What’s more, he’s sure that Britain lost.
2. “The sacred spell of the invincibility of the British navy was broken,” one British Parliamentarian declared.
3. British respect for American sovereignty did follow the war,
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
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This Troy Bickham???
Quote:Even tied down by ongoing wars with Napoleonic France, the British had enough capable officers, well-trained men, and equipment to easily defeat a series of American invasions of Canada. In fact, in the opening salvos of the war, the American forces invading Upper Canada were pushed so far back that they ended up surrendering Michigan Territory. The difference between the two navies was even greater. While the Americans famously (shockingly for contemporaries on both sides of the Atlantic) bested British ships in some one-on-one actions at the war's start, the Royal Navy held supremacy throughout the war, blockading the U.S. coastline and ravaging coastal towns, including Washington, D.C. Yet in late 1814, the British offered surprisingly generous peace terms despite having amassed a large invasion force of veteran troops in Canada, naval supremacy in the Atlantic, an opponent that was effectively bankrupt, and an open secessionist movement in New England.
Bickham also stated that the war was technically a British victory, Quote:"because the United States failed to achieve the aims listed in its declaration of war".
Look NYGiant, the greater numbers of historians, British, American or Canadian seem to see this war as militarily inconclusive, a draw in other words.
Donald Hickey is an American expert on the war of 1812:
Quote:The United States has won most of its wars, often emerging with significant concessions from the enemy. But the War of 1812 was different. Far from bringing the enemy to terms, the nation was lucky to escape without making extensive concessions itself. . Hickey, D.
Quote:Although most Americans pretended they had won the war – even calling it a "Second War of Independence" – they could point to few concrete gains – certainly none in the peace treaty – to sustain this claim. . Hickey, D.
[Read More]
Most of the claims to an American victory do not focus on military superiority but upon the fact that the US had gained respect from its enemy.
I would recommend, Don't Give Up The Ship: Myths of the War of 1812 by Donald Hickey. It's a wonderful read by this American historian at Wayne State and of note, the forward to the book was written by Donald Graves, one of Canada's finest historians of the War of 1812.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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double
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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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Who is Troy Bickham?
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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Quote: Who is Troy Bickham?
NYGiant, you have to keep track of your citations. You brought his name up when trying to prove that others think that the US won this war. You said this:
Quote:Nice article.
1. In “The Weight of Vengeance” (Oxford), a new study marking the war’s bicentennial year, Troy Bickham repeats the refrain: “There is no single explanation for the outbreak of war in June 1812.” But Bickham has a trick up his sleeve. It turns out that he’s an optimist. He thinks that it is possible to say what the war was about. What’s more, he’s sure that Britain lost.
. NYGiant
For the record Troy Bickham is professor of history at Texas A & M University. He is the author of The Weight of Vengeance: The United States, the British Empire, and the War of 1812
And so I found a quote of Mr. Bickham that seems to indicate something different than what you said.
I haven't read that book. There was a spate of new War of 1812 material that came out in 2012. It was the 200 year anniversary of the war of course and many historians took the opportunity to write a book. I don't know whether Bickham is one of the regulars who study this war or a newcomer. His book was released in 2012.
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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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yea, you got a point.
I was busy watching Toronto lose yesterday.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 13377
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Quote: yea, you got a point.
I was busy watching Toronto lose yesterday.
Quite the collapse. Manager is taking heat for pulling the starter.
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NYGiant
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Battle of Yorktown begins
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You can never have too much pitching
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