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Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3662
Joined: 2004
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/15/2021 6:53:04 PM
Just a note concerning Israeli air strikes today, as reported in the (Toronto-based) Globe & Mail, considered by some to be one of Canada’s ‘national’ newspapers. Like most MHOers (at a guess), I have some strong feelings about this latest series of battles. I’ll try to steer clear of my feelings in my note, and focus as specifically as possible (one related exception aside) on the Israeli air strikes on a high-rise building in the Gaza enclave.

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To the issue, I find it difficult to believe this strike was not an attempt to silence or hamper world-wide news media. As well, I find it hard to believe this was a strike against a Hamas Intelligence unit, whether embedded within a building housing media offices of foreign news agencies. Just some points, all of them debatable in one way or another:
• Are Israeli forces dumb enough to suggest they warned “civilians” of an upcoming strike, without considering that after such a warning, the warning itself would become broadcast to all tenants of the building. A warning to occupants would alert all occupants, including Hamas Intelligence officers. Surely the Israelis get that.
• See the array of towers on the roof of the building? While such an array might contain a dedicated Hamas relay device, those antennae are not the issue. The danger lurks in the equipment and archival storage in the building under it. I can count down from 12 to see where those Israeli strikes are hitting.
• (exception I mentioned): This is the third Israeli strike against major buildings housing global media offices.

Nobody, I guess, has all the facts. But this looks to me to be an attempt of to undermine or reduce world media coverage of Israeli (and probably Hamas) actions. It looks to be a deliberate effort to take world public opinion out of a conflict that seems to be politically powerful both for Israeli politics and Palestinian governance.

Offered just for some thought.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 11654
Joined: 2009
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/15/2021 8:35:40 PM
It did seem like an odd choice to target. AP and Aljazerra were two of the bigger media outlets in the building. AP said that they were not aware of any Hamas activity in the building. One of the news outlets aired a video of the evacuation. Israeli military gave the building owner a one hour heads up. The news outlets were scrambling to get their equipment out of the building along with their people.

The owner of the building and an AP journalist made calls to the Israeli military begging for "fifteen more minutes". The AP journalist explained that he wanted to get their cameras and other high tech equipment out safely. Request denied. I understand that this building was also a residential apartment and Israel has said that Hamas likes to operate among non-combatants.

I would like to hear the Israeli justification for the raid.

If this was an attempt to disrupt media reports then, what next? Israeli troops were also amassing on the border.

Cheers,

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 11654
Joined: 2009
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/15/2021 8:48:27 PM
The AP report on the event.

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DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 965
Joined: 2005
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/18/2021 5:02:02 PM
A few thoughts/questions:

1) Has Hamas ever revised or retracted their long known stance of rejecting a Jewish state? No. they have not.

2) Hamas continues driving its ultimate mission–”no matter how long it takes”– to “fight the Jews and kill them” and to replace the Jewish state with an Islamic caliphate. Somewhat difficult to take at face value any "peace offering" Hamas might try to extend I think (but see item #4)

3) Hamas' own charter states that the destruction of not just the Jewish state but that of the Jewish people is a key fundamental point of their belief; boy, I thought we finished that war in WWII in Europe.

4) Has Hamas ever accepted, let alone proposed a valid, comprehensible peace plan? I doubt they ever will, as the evil of their belief goes beyond any desire for peace that proof in the pudding is shown by the contempt that they have for the well being of their own peoples, let alone Jews.

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3662
Joined: 2004
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/18/2021 8:30:16 PM
DT, fair questions. Rhetorical, of course, because there are either no answers or only answers based on “-isms”.

I’ll be honest. I don’t think the combined brilliance of all the minds of MHOers has a lot to offer to solve the festering disaster that is the middle east.

I’m still not convinced that there was one justifiable reason for Israel to have been given control of Palestinian land. And I’m not sure that any Brit, Pole, Ukrainian, Canadian, or US citizen would take kindly to having space ceded to them suddenly see it redefined as a new nation to be controlled by “others”.

That’s why my initial post was so carefully prescribed. Was the attack I introduced an attack on Hamas, or an attack on media presentation? Was the target Hamas intelligence or media which might provide an eye on the absurdly obviously one-sided assault of IDF forces on antagonists in what is clearly occupied territory?

I believe the attack was designed to curtail coverage of the Israeli assault. And I would counter all your fair questions with a blunt response. The time is long gone when I trust anything Israel says about its aims, its need, or its justification.

Cheers. And stay safe.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 965
Joined: 2005
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/18/2021 8:52:03 PM
Nearly my exact thoughts Brian; 'The time is long gone when I trust anything the Palestinians say about its aims, its need, or its justification.'

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2935
Joined: 2007
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/19/2021 9:23:02 AM
"News" agencies, such as Reuters and the AP have deceived readers with dishonest efforts such as cropping the long knife, held in the hands of a "peaceful Palestinian protester," on a flotilla ship when IDF commandos fast roped down onto the decks. The caption AP chose for its photo was "unarmed Palestinian protesters......" is some one unarmed if the AP deliberately crops their weapon out of the photo?

" The time has long gone when I trust anything the press says about the Palestinian-Isreali conflict." AP, Reuters, and many other western "news" organizations have long been on speed dial of the PLO or Hamas ...under "ACME Propaganda."

BEEP BEEP!


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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 11654
Joined: 2009
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/19/2021 10:33:59 AM
Israel seems to be operating an apartheid state to ensure that the country of Israel remains Jewish even though part of the population of the country is Palestinian. The rest of the Palestinians are kept in territories like Gaza and the West bank. They have no national status and it appears that Israel has no intention of granting it. The two state solution, supported by many across the world seems to be a dead proposition.

Meanwhile Israel continues to evict Palestinians from communities that it covets to build Israeli settlements. Israel has stated that its intention was to expand its territory right from its beginnings and it continues to do so, at the expense of Palestinians.

There are just under 5 million people who are Palestinian in the region. Nearly 3 million of these live on the West Bank in communities that are always subject to the annexation or removal policy of the state of Israel. 1.8 million Palestinians live in Gaza in one of the most congested places in the world.

Granting Israel the right to exist is one thing and I support that though I question the wisdom of establishing a Zionist state in 1948.

But Israel is no longer content to remain within its borders and has expanded its territory a number of times since its birth.

I know that there are some who believe that the Jews have a God given right to own this ancestral homeland going back into antiquity to prove that. The reality is that today there are Jews and Arabs in the same territory. One has official status, the other does not.

For those who support Israel unequivocally, I do wonder how they feel about Israeli expansionism and the establishment of settlements on the West Bank and the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. How much land do Israeli supporters believe that Israel is entitled to? And what is the solution for the Palestinian people?

This is a map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Illegal?

The source of this map is an NGO operating in Israel called b'tselem. It is Jersusalem based and of course, has a political agenda.

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Note the fencing project. The world has seen this sort of thing before, in South Africa.



Cheers,

George
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2935
Joined: 2007
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/19/2021 1:12:23 PM
Note the indiscriminate firing of hundreds of rockets to terrorize civilians in Israel . The world has seen this sort of thing before, in September of 1944, on London and Antwerp.
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 965
Joined: 2005
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/20/2021 1:09:40 PM
Quote:
For those who support Israel unequivocally, I do wonder how they feel about Israeli expansionism and the establishment of settlements on the West Bank and the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. How much land do Israeli supporters believe that Israel is entitled to? And what is the solution for the Palestinian people?
George

That a sizable population of West Bank Jewish settlers are from the former Soviet Union should be a reminder that a large portion of the worlds community continue to discriminate against Jews. Arguing for or against the land given to the Jews in 1948 provides zero progress for peace. It happened, the world agreed to it (at least the world that led the way for this to take place).

During the 1948 war, the allied Muslim nations could not agree on territories and who should have/conquer what. Seventy-three years later, what progress, what out-reach have the Palestinians made to work toward a peaceful agreement that should benefit themselves and Israel? Look at the peace agreements the Trump administration made with the outlying Arab/Muslim countries and look who held out again, Palestine. And whose people suffer horrendously because of the actions their "government" (the terrorists Hamas) make, Palestinians.

Is Israel a darling in all of this, no. No one is in these situations but I don't recall Hamas calling up Jews and stating, hey, we are going to launch rockets into your town or some mind-numbed young man or woman is going to board a bus and blow it up. Hamas thus Palestinians, have openly and consistently declared their objective is to kill every Jew in the world. I say that is quite an obstacle to peace and done so with obvious purpose.

Who has a right to the lands in this region? If that is where the focus is, peace will never be known in this region of the world and clearly history has shown that to be true for thousands of years.

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 11654
Joined: 2009
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/20/2021 5:15:56 PM
Thanks Dan. I agree that the argument presented by some evangelical Christian groups that the disputed territory is the land of the Jews is not one that sheds any light on the current issues. I also agree that Jews are still discriminated against and I cannot understand that. It happens here in Canada as most of the acts of ethnic discrimination are against Jews.

I have already acknowledged that Israel is a sovereign nation though I think it is worth pondering why the world and certainly the US were so keen to create this nation of Israel. It is also worth noting that the borders of Israel have been expanded since its creation. Israel has not been shy about annexing territory and I know that they argue that annexation is for security purposes.

But we know that the Palestinians have been living in the West Bank and it seems that current Israeli actions, including forced evictions and the building of settlements outside of Israel's borders, are going to exacerbate the problem. If the West Bank was ever to become the homeland of the Palestinians, that fact becomes ever less likely as the Israelis continue to move people into Palestinian territory.

I don't mind a discussion about the Trump peace deal which was imposed without consultation with the Palestinians. The promise of the Abraham Accords was that a new era of peace and prosperity was upon us in the Middle East. So the UAE and Bahrain opened up diplomatic relations with Israel. They join Egypt and Jordan. All good I suppose? But there was no war between UAE and Bahrain and Israel so there was no peace to declare. And all of this good will was not extended to the Palestinians. The problem was ignored and no peace was brought to the Middle East, as we can see. Israel and the Trump administration got the best part of the deal. Israel can say that it seeks peace with Arab nations and for any President of the US, this looks like a victory.

The only thing that the Palestinians got out of it was that Netanyahu promised the two Arab states that he would not annex the west bank. That will probably come when sufficient numbers of Israelis have moved into the territory. A parallel to that situation would be the US annexation of East Florida and Mexico.

The Palestinians and Jordan, I believe, rejected the Abraham Accords. Why?

1. The deal was imposed, not negotiated.

2. The deal calls for Palestine to have a land mass about equal to the size of the West Bank. That means mutually agreed upon land swaps. That means that the Israelis will legalize the ownership of their illegal settlements while the Palestinians get a disjointed group of enclaves that includes the Jordan Valley which will be "under Israeli sovereignty".

3. East Jerusalem will be under Israeli sovereignty even though the Palestinians have a solid claim to the territory. Palestine would be allowed to build a Parliament on the outskirts of Jerusalem which is a rough and crime ridden area.

4. Israel would immediately annex all its settlements in the West Bank and incorporate them into the greater state of Israel. Further construction of settlements in designated Palestinian territory is not supposed to happen.

5. Israel would have overall responsibility for security in all of the West Bank as Palestine will be fully demilitarized. Palestine will have its own security force but Israel will control all border points and will monitor all crossings. There will be a "crossing committee" consisting of 3 Israelis, 3 Palestinians and one US representative. Israel, as the security provider, may enter Palestine any time that it feels that it must.

6. Israel won't agree to any of the parts of the accord unless Gaza is ruled only by the Palestinian Authority. Hamas must have no roll in Gaza. As well, Gaza must be fully demilitarized as well. All militant groups must turn in their weapons.

7. Palestinians who were forced to leave Israel and lost property shall have no right of return. These people are the refugees and the accords say that they may choose to live in the new Palestine or emigrate to other countries who will have them. Apparently the US will attempt to provide "some compensation" to these refugees.

I really do not see this as a deal that has any prospects for success. It is essentially what Netanyahu wanted.

Cheers,

George


EDIT: It would be incorrect to suggest that representatives of the Palestinians have expressed their desire to wipe Israel from the map. There are militant groups like Hamas that have suggested just that.

But the Palestinian Authority as far back as 1993 in Oslo did recognize the right of Israel to exist in peace and security. They also renounced terrorism.

We know that countless efforts have failed and indeed, Palestinian militants have continued to engage in terrorist acts.

At one time, Israel did acknowledge support for a two state solution. Given its desire to establish illegal settlements in Palestinian territory on the West Bank, I think that the two state solution is dead.














Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 3662
Joined: 2004
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/20/2021 10:39:56 PM
Morris, acceptable point, from one point of view. Except that in fairness we would have to give thought to the bombing efforts of RAF and USAAF a/c in the years before the combined V-attacks by Germany. Such a discussion may be somewhat nuanced. The airmen who struck German cities (even before the US was involved in WW2) were designated “”Terrorflieger” The German term might be challengeable, but in truth RAF BC was using medieval cities as test beds for destroying civilian habitation. That strikes me as an attempt to develop indiscriminate destruction of civilians, so “Terrorflieger” seems an apt descriptor. Throughout the war, the Allies argued that their attacks were focused on accepted military targets. Yet for the most part, both RAF and USAAF practised area or carpet bombing techniques. The V-weapons I assume you’re referring to were seen by the political arm of German military as weapons of reprisal or revenge, a response to the apparent terror bombing or random German cities.

I do not accept or condone indiscriminate Palestinian rocket fire against Israel. I do not accept or condone excessive Israeli bombing against targets which may house civilians in Palestine. I believe that Israeli defensive measures (e.g., the Iron Dome) is sophisticated enough to deflect most of any indiscriminate assault by Palestinians, and recognize (as I bet the Palestinians do as well) that Israeli military tech is far superior to Palestinian strike power.

I believe that, whether Israeli strikes are designated “smart” strikes or not, they are killing Palestinian civilians. If smart strikes kill children and civilians, either they are not “smart” or they have targeted those they kill. That’s probably too binary to be real, but isn’t that what is being argued?

Cheers.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
kaii
Oslo  
Posts: 2914
Joined: 2010
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/21/2021 9:11:17 AM
I reckon as long as people keep placing all blame on one side or the other, this conflict will keep brewing. Strong elements on both sides need this conflict to stay alive.

This latest flare up now came at a very opportune time for both the Israeli government and especially Hamas, for internal reasons, and will die down again once both sides achieved what they wanted - a distraction from other more pressing issues. Mission accomplished.

Other than that, I agree that it is difficult to see a permanent solution to this any time soon. Any compromise would kill off the currently strongest political forces on both sides, and I don't think many political organisations are interested in suicide.

K
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“My dear boy, as long as you don’t invade Afghanistan you’ll be absolutely fine.” - Harold Macmillan to Alec Douglas-Home upon the latter taking over as PM.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2064
Joined: 2020
A note on the latest Israeli-Palestinian dustup
5/22/2021 6:07:26 PM
Im no expert as to what's going on in Israel and I do feel for the Palestinians because I feel they are poorly led and are pawns the Iranians seem to have alot alot of influence with Hamas. My Grandmother was a supporter of the IRA not directly she may have sent a few dollars overseas but hated what the English did to Ireland. There was no reason the English should have gone into Ireland but they did the English built manor homes all over Ireland sent over protestants to the North to get a toe hold into Ireland. Today its ok and its ok with me i'm in the US because of the potato famine so I get it. My point is I feel for the Palestinians but at some point arms have to be laid down and the thoughts of children and the safety of families has to be considered,. The same thing happened with Michael Collins and De Valera one peace one war. My wife is yelling at me to walk the dog and I cant complete this thought but every conflict is nuanced , but If someone sent 4000 rockets my way to my family and friends I would hope my government would pummel them never mind anything about who is right who is wrong. No matter what safety bound key pecker westerner thought who hasn't opened a history book ever...

vpatrick
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nuts

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