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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3248
Joined: 2007
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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I just read where the US has, in just six months, spent about 60 billion dollars in military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine. That is what we spent in the first five years of fighting the war in Afghanistan....and we know what we wound up with for all that.
All this spending funneled to a country that has been for years one of the most corrupt, if not the most corrupt nation in the world. We all would like to see Putin`s ass kicked to Siberia...and the horrible bloodshed and horror that he has inflicted on the people of Ukraine, end.
But I wonder how much of our money is being pissed away....yet again. How much money and aid has been given to Ukraine by the EU and NATO countries? Are they stepping up as much or more....it`s their backyard!
I am uneasy about this constant drumbeat of billions of dollars being rubber-stamped through...to fight a tyrant that the EU has emboldened and allowed to have the keys to their strategic security. "Get rid of Nuclear, get rid of fossil fuels, end production of our own energy....and give control over our energy security to Vlad Putin and his pipelines. Follow a 15 year-old cultist brat...and deliver our future to someone who wishes to own us."
It`s frustrating the lack of strategic thinking that has plagued the EU, and the US, for many years now. Can you say China? Good luck with staying warm this winter.
Any numbers of the contributions numbers of others would be welcome.
Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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kaii
Oslo
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Posts: 3133
Joined: 2010
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Here is quite a good overview which I think is quite updated, and gets updated regularly.
[Read More]
It splits commitments into Humanitarian, Financial and Military, which gives a more complete picture.
In absolute terms the US is the biggest contributor in all categories.
In relative terms, i.e. as a share of GDP, the US ranks 5th in Total commitments (3rd in Humanitarian, 6th in Financial and 8th in Military)
The biggest relative contributor in each category is
Total: Estonia,
Humanitarian: Lithuania,
Financial: Poland,
Military: Estonia
You have a very valid point that the major EU nations have been dragging their feet, both in absolute and in relative terms.
Germany, for instance, despite being the 3rd largest contributor in absolute terms is only 14th in relative terms. France, 6th in absolute terms and 14th in relative terms.
K
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
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Posts: 1794
Joined: 2010
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Isn't a lot of that $60,000,000,000 spent on goods bought in the US?
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3248
Joined: 2007
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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kaii, thanks for the information on EU and NATO member states and their funding for Ukraine.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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scoucer
Berlin
Germany
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Posts: 3189
Joined: 2010
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Kai,
I am having a problem with understanding the figures. For example, does the humanitarian/financial aid mean aid directly to Ukraine ? Does it include the aid involved in taking in a half million refugees which Germany has done and the financial support for particularly Poland, Lithuania and Bulgaria who need help supporting the refugees they have taken in ? Is the treatment of badly wounded Ukrainian soldiers flown in to German hospitals a part of the calculation ?
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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kaii
Oslo
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Posts: 3133
Joined: 2010
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Quote: Kai,
I am having a problem with understanding the figures. For example, does the humanitarian/financial aid mean aid directly to Ukraine ? Does it include the aid involved in taking in a half million refugees which Germany has done and the financial support for particularly Poland, Lithuania and Bulgaria who need help supporting the refugees they have taken in ? Is the treatment of badly wounded Ukrainian soldiers flown in to German hospitals a part of the calculation ?
Trevor
Hi Trevor, I think it almost certainly would not include the costs of taking refugees, and probably not indirect support like financial aid to the neighbouring countries. Evacuation and treatment of wounded soldiers would probably be included in the figures.
I'll see if I can find some more detailed explanation of what is included and not.
K
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kaii
Oslo
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Posts: 3133
Joined: 2010
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Quote: The Ukraine Support Tracker lists and quantifies military, financial and humanitarian aid promised by governments to Ukraine between January 24, 2022 and currently through July 1, 2022. It covers 40 countries, specifically the EU member states, other members of the G7, as well as Australia, South Korea, Turkey, Norway, New Zealand, Switzerland, China, Taiwan and India. The database is intended to support a facts-based discussion about support to Ukraine.
We focus on government-to-government transfers into Ukraine. Due to a lack of comparable and reliable data, we do not quantify private donations or transfers by international organizations like the Red Cross. For more details see below. We are continuously expanding, correcting, and improving this project. We therefore very much welcome any help to improve the tracker. We are very grateful for the many comments and suggestions we have received. Please send feedback and comments to ukrainetracker@ifw-kiel.de
This would indicate that only aid promised directly to the Ukrainian government counts in this overview, i.e. that it excludes things like support to other neighbouring countries and accepting refugees.
K
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vpatrick
MA
MA USA
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Posts: 2436
Joined: 2020
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Hi Morris,
I am a big supporter of Ukraine and have had several arguments with my friends and not friends about this issue. The corruption thing comes up always I would contend the US is a corrupt country, Italy is a corrupt country, Russia is a corrupt country, when a peaceful country that is not threatening another country other than deciding to go its own way and is mired in corruption but is endeavoring to clean it up is it deserving of invasion? Not just a parachute drop on the capital that will send the possible corrupt politicians(it did not work) scurrying but a slow systematic WW2 like artillery barrage that levels cities kills civilians and goes on for months and for what? This type of action should be fought against with all possible means by the west, think about it for a second, children and old people are being killed, old folks cant get their medicine, Alzheimer's, Cancer, dialysis patients left out in the cold because of their bombed out facilities and for what? We all feel safe in our safe countries and feel its not our war but I think in this day and time this type of war can not be waged and the wager should be punished with all possible means. Our safety is temporary if we allow this barbarity to go on.
Yes their are many nuances to this war Americans dont understand and probably alot of underlying issues why the US supports this war but Switzerland even chose a side and froze Russian assets a country that harbored Nazi gold. 60 billion is shit to the US and by supplying the Ukrainians with a few Himars the world can see what a shit can military Putin has and has shown Putin he would never stand up to a Nato military. Money well spent.
Slava Ukraini!
vpatrick
PS
By the way I feel like I do because a big country should never be able to take the statehood away from a smaller county, Im Irish
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nuts
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
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Posts: 1794
Joined: 2010
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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I'm Irish on my parents' side of the family. Erin go bragh!
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3248
Joined: 2007
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Vince, all good points about the evils of Russia and Putin.......but is 60 billion small change if it is being pissed down a rabbit hole?
We are being taken over by China, a little bit more every day. And we pour more money into the UN than anybody. We spend more on military defense, as GDP, than European NATO nations do. This constant spending on perpetual wars, whether we are involved with boots of the ground or not, is great for Rathion and the other contractors and corporations....but we are now $30 trillion in debt and climbing towards oblivion.
And as much as I have admired Zelenski, for him and his wife to pose for Vogue photos with Annie Liebowitz...while the smashed corpses of his people are being pulled from the rubble of what once was their homes....seems sick and pathetic ....in a kind of Hollywood way to me.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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vpatrick
MA
MA USA
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Posts: 2436
Joined: 2020
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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I agree Morris and usually disagree when the US invades a smaller foreign country but if the US is throwing caution to wind when its spends its money and it looks like its not going to change we might as well help the Ukrainians on the way to our oblivion. I don't see anything changing in this country we let ourselves be run by morons. Very few people in congress are concerned with our national debt and China's ambitions and I dont think the national debt makes it into the top ten of things voters care about unfortunately.
vpatrick
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nuts
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mikecmaps
CAMARILLO
CA USA
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Posts: 203
Joined: 2020
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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07292022 830a
Group,
US debt 1945 was over 100% GDP. It costs to maintain freedom yes lives and money. We should be very thankful Ukraine is only directly costing us money now. 25% of our gdp is trade yes with china & Europe. Over a trillion with just EU. With china about half that. Worried about debt, imagine we lose trade with Europe. We invested 100sk lives in free Europe WW2. Because we need Europe. US policy 1980-90s ship jobs to max out profits. So yes we trade with Europe and China, today our jobs need it. the world is very small now, in less than 24hrs we can be on any spot on the globe. Its short sighted and outdated nostalgia to think we can isolate. 60 bl is ¼ of 1% of gdp and less than 1% of our trade with EU. (about same of defense cost) any body remember WW2, remember appeasement?
thanks, Mike_C
mikecmaps
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Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
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Posts: 4663
Joined: 2004
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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‘I'm Irish on my parents' side of the family. Erin go bragh!”
OP, thank you for that! What about on the other side?
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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vpatrick
MA
MA USA
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Posts: 2436
Joined: 2020
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Hi Brian
I wonder some times if your anti- Irish. When ever I used to post Saint Patrick's day stuff id get a lecture from you. Maybe your not but why do you care about Opiana's other side? And dont you think you are derailing this thread? Cant you just let it go that Irish folks love their country and heritage?
vpatrick
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nuts
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scoucer
Berlin
Germany
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Posts: 3189
Joined: 2010
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Quote: Hi Brian
I wonder some times if your anti- Irish. When ever I used to post Saint Patrick's day stuff id get a lecture from you. Maybe your not but why do you care about Opiana's other side? And dont you think you are derailing this thread? Cant you just let it go that Irish folks love their country and heritage?
vpatrick
Vince, that was a joke from Brian. OP mispoke. It is either mother or fathers side. There is no parents side.
Actually, my great-grandfather was from Waterford. Apparently, he was very circumspect about explaining why he left Ireland and ended up in a small village in Wales keeping a very low profile.
But that why my mother had the name Carrigan.
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
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Posts: 1794
Joined: 2010
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Eight families left Ireland late one night. I'm one of the few directly descended from all eight. That make's me Irish on my parents side of the family.
Boarded a steamer and hid until they were out of sight of land.,
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vpatrick
MA
MA USA
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Posts: 2436
Joined: 2020
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Are we pissing it all away again...and what for?
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Quote:Quote: Hi Brian
I wonder some times if your anti- Irish. When ever I used to post Saint Patrick's day stuff id get a lecture from you. Maybe your not but why do you care about Opiana's other side? And dont you think you are derailing this thread? Cant you just let it go that Irish folks love their country and heritage?
vpatrick Vince, that was a joke from Brian. OP mispoke. It is either mother or fathers side. There is no parents side. Actually, my great-grandfather was from Waterford. Apparently, he was very circumspect about explaining why he left Ireland and ended up in a small village in Wales keeping a very low profile. But that why my mother had the name Carrigan. Trevor
You are correct Trevor looks like I jumped to another conclusion my apologies Brian G.
vpatrick
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nuts
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