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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)
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vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/11/2022 6:18:54 PM
It seems the Ukrainian's have begun a Blitzkriegs like offensive in the northeast by Kharkiv the Russians seem to be on the run there. Also I have been reading about cracks in the Russian government and I have even witnessed somewhat critical reporting on Russian state television as its getting harder and harder for the Russian regime to cover up the losses in Ukraine. The Ukrainians have captured Kupyask and possibly Izyum which are major supply centers and troop concentration areas. As far as I can see the Russians are running out of fresh troops and equipment as their best troops and formations have already been used also the Russian Airforce has not flown over Ukraine for four months. Even if Russia mobilized now it would take several months for them to be equipped and trained and Im not sure if the Russians are even capable of equipping a WW2 like army right now with new modern tanks, modern artillery systems, attack aircraft etc. looking at Russian equipment they don't even posses anything that could be considered modern. But what concerns me is when a gangster like Putin gets cornered he may use what is ever available to him to level the playing field.. nukes or at least tactical ones. While Im glad for the Ukrainians I think we have entered the scariest part of the war, the prospect that the Russians may lose.

Im not sure what a Russian loss looks like, Saddam Hussein was able to hold onto power for 12 years after his failed invasion of Kuwait until the 2003 invasion by US and Allied forces, he may still be in power today if this invasion never happened. For Putin to stay in power all depends how much of a grip Putin has over his people and country. If Putin does lose power this may be the death of the Russian Federation, we got lucky with nuclear proliferation after the death of the Soviet Union, Im not sure what this would look like, I just hope our leaders are thinking a few steps down the road.

vpatrick
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nuts
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1508
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/11/2022 6:59:42 PM
Trying to follow the Ukrainian offensives here in Pennsylvania as best as I can. My feelings are that if this offensive succeeds too well it may bode ill for the Ukrainian nation. Putin will use what ever weapons are still available to win and save face. Given Putin's past record in Chechnya and Syria biological or tactical nukes are not out of the question. I pray I'm wrong.

Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/11/2022 7:55:27 PM
Larry,
A source I have enjoyed for information is a US think tank – Institute for the Study of War (ISW) – which offers emailed assessments at least daily. These are assessments of current military developments, together with evaluations of open-source intel and commentary in various Eastern European nations. They also generate interactive maps, which find become more helpful as their numbers grow. Once in a while their bias shows, but by-and-large I have found the presentations informative. You can find their website here:
https://www.understandingwar.org/

Their latest bulletin (this morning, PDT) discusses the issues raised in VP’s post: what appears to be a collapse of military leadership, which in places has turned sections of Soviet retreat into a somewhat uncontrolled rout, with Soviet troops deserting their weapons and ridding themselves of their uniforms. One of the interactive maps shows particularly vividly the great strides Ukrainian units are making as a result of the chaos.

One point of interest, particularly given Larry’s concerns: it appears that many of the actively pro-Ukraine Special Operation social media activists are vocalizing rage with this second military collapse, to the extent that they are blaming Putin at least indirectly, and the military hierarchy for continued corruption, bribery and misrepresentation. While I hesitate to speculate, this could have some impact on Putin’s next moves.

Cheers
Brian G



----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3028
Joined: 2010
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/11/2022 8:30:56 PM
Brian,

Where did the Soviets come from ?

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/11/2022 9:26:48 PM
Oh dear! … 

I’ve been reading too much Gorbachev’s death and 1939. I meant, in this case, Russian troops. What I can’t be certain of is whether there were Russian nationals from Ukraine involved, or only Russians as citizens.

Sorry about that!

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/11/2022 9:55:12 PM
Hi all,

I think Brian's calling the Russians Soviets is somewhat correct since Putin is attempting to restore the Soviet borders, As idiotic as it may seem. This invasion of Ukraine is nothing but Soviet, masterminded by a Soviet Union hold over "Putin" but instead of a walkover into Hungary and Czechoslovakia this populace can defend themselves, we should have defended Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968, at some point a proxy war was coming with Russia, this is the last gasp of the Soviet Union I just hope we all survive it.

vpatrick
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nuts
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 204
Joined: 2021
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/12/2022 8:41:40 AM
So, vpatrick, on what basis should "we" have defended Hungary and Czechoslovakia? NATO? The Unites States? Why not go to war during the Berlin Airlift?

Realize that in 1956, that was only 2 years after Great Britain, a victor in WW2 II, had stopped food rationing. And the battlefields of Europe were still being cleaned up. For. what they told me at MountOrmel , it took 20 years to remove all the German armor that had been destroyed at the Falaise Gap.. It took 20 years to re-build the monastery at Monte Cassino.

1968 was just over 20 years, the length of time between the Great War and WW II.

Both Hungary and Czechoslovakia were in the Soviet where of influence, and any involvement would have precipitated WW III, and the likely involvement of nuclear war and holocaust.

Now, if you are trying to say that after WWII, the US should have gone to war against the Soviet Union, while we were still fighting Japan, and the families of the GIs were asking to bring the boys home, then FDR would have been impeached. In fact, the British had formulated a plan to attack the Soviets, which the Soviets knew about ( since the Soviets had spies in the British Government.



Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/12/2022 11:08:08 AM
Do you think “ General Winter “ will come to Russia’s aid again?

If the Ukrainians can press their advantage with sufficient speed and effect, then the Kremlin might seek a settlement .

If the thing gets bogged down , then the cold weather will, I fear, play to the weaknesses of European resolve as energy crises take their toll.

Let the thing be pressed!

Who said that in the American Civil War ?

Was it Lincoln one week before his assassination ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/12/2022 9:28:39 PM
Quote:
Do you think “ General Winter “ will come to Russia’s aid again?

If the Ukrainians can press their advantage with sufficient speed and effect, then the Kremlin might seek a settlement .

If the thing gets bogged down , then the cold weather will, I fear, play to the weaknesses of European resolve as energy crises take their toll.
Phil Andrade

Phil, when I first read this I thought that “General Winter” would probably work in favour of Ukraine as defenders. Easier to stabilize and fortify one’s own line than prepare for further assault.

Wrong thinking, of course. You raise a topic beyond my real understanding. Concerns about European heating supplies for winter seem to get incorporated into NA’s comparatively minor problems with price rises in oil, gas and electricity. I live in a temperate zone, with low winter temperatures hitting -5°C maybe five days a year. I am not facing loss of home fuel, escalation of electricity bills, growing vehicle fuel costs. That could make the coming winter nasty, at kindest. And to be honest, I don’t know what options Europe has. Would European nations abandon Ukraine support against Russian aggression to regain home heat? I don’t know. It would surprise me, but I’m uncertain how bad or how fixed this coming winter’s situation might be.

If current assessments of Ukrainian successes are correct, I would personally expect some attempted Ukrainian thrusts in the Kherson Oblast soon, just to trip the scales again. Either there or in the Donetsk Oblast might keep the Ukraine offensive positive, and the Russians on their heels.

But I don’t see an end to this war/incursion before the onset of winter, and I don’t see Ukraine’s forces stopping because they’re cold.

Cheers
Brian G


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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/13/2022 2:03:47 AM
Brian,

Latest news is that European gas storage plans are working well, and the price of gas has fallen significantly.

This implies more trouble for Putin, and battle reports are clearly indicating Russian defeat - rout, apparently - in sectors in the northern regions.

Even the Russian media are countenancing discomfiture.

Tsars, Soviets, Putin : is this a tale of same cake and different icing ?

Dictatorship, paranoia, bullying, terror, bribery and corruption being the denominators ?

Defeat in the Crimean War resulted in the abolition of Serfdom; defeat in the Russo Japanese War brought democratic reforms. We all know what defeat in 1917 brought about.

What might Russian defeat entail this time ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1472
Joined: 2010
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/14/2022 5:48:08 AM
https://i.imgur.com/7o3ieyM.jpeg
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/14/2022 7:26:45 PM
OP, interesting remake of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

B

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
kaii
Oslo  Norway
Posts: 3062
Joined: 2010
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/15/2022 3:54:52 PM
Quote:


If current assessments of Ukrainian successes are correct, I would personally expect some attempted Ukrainian thrusts in the Kherson Oblast soon, just to trip the scales again. Either there or in the Donetsk Oblast might keep the Ukraine offensive positive, and the Russians on their heels.

Cheers
Brian G




I would suggest keeping your eye on the Zaporyzhzhia - Melitopol axis the next couple of weeks. The Ukrainians have committed two of their three freshly trained divisions, one in Kherson and one in Kharkiv. Where the third one strikes is anyone's guess at this stage I suppose, but a strike to clear Melitopol would lay the foundation for retaking Mariupol AND begin operations into Crimea.

Many long nights ahead still I think.

K
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"They tried to bury us - but did not realise that we are seeds." -Volodymyr Zelenskiy, President of Ukraine
kaii
Oslo  Norway
Posts: 3062
Joined: 2010
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/15/2022 3:58:18 PM
Quote:
Brian,

Latest news is that European gas storage plans are working well, and the price of gas has fallen significantly.

This implies more trouble for Putin, and battle reports are clearly indicating Russian defeat - rout, apparently - in sectors in the northern regions.

Even the Russian media are countenancing discomfiture.

Tsars, Soviets, Putin : is this a tale of same cake and different icing ?

Dictatorship, paranoia, bullying, terror, bribery and corruption being the denominators ?

Defeat in the Crimean War resulted in the abolition of Serfdom; defeat in the Russo Japanese War brought democratic reforms. We all know what defeat in 1917 brought about.

What might Russian defeat entail this time ?

Regards, Phil


Interesting observations of unknown drones over Norwegian oil and gas installations in the North Sea the past few days.
Who might be interested in stirring up some troubles there, one might ask?

K
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"They tried to bury us - but did not realise that we are seeds." -Volodymyr Zelenskiy, President of Ukraine
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/16/2022 10:32:46 PM
Kai, always good to read your thoughts and insights. Thanks for the heads-up!

i assume that those observations of drones are documented and attested in one way or the other. Just snoopiness, or relative active threat? And were these drones Russian, and harbingers of worse than just snooping, would deniability be possible?

Cheers
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1508
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/19/2022 3:11:26 PM
Quote:
Larry,
A source I have enjoyed for information is a US think tank – Institute for the Study of War (ISW) – which offers emailed assessments at least daily. These are assessments of current military developments, together with evaluations of open-source intel and commentary in various Eastern European nations. They also generate interactive maps, which find become more helpful as their numbers grow. Once in a while their bias shows, but by-and-large I have found the presentations informative. You can find their website here:

https://www.understandingwar.org/



Their latest bulletin (this morning, PDT) discusses the issues raised in VP’s post: what appears to be a collapse of military leadership, which in places has turned sections of Soviet retreat into a somewhat uncontrolled rout, with Soviet troops deserting their weapons and ridding themselves of their uniforms. One of the interactive maps shows particularly vividly the great strides Ukrainian units are making as a result of the chaos.


One point of interest, particularly given Larry’s concerns: it appears that many of the actively pro-Ukraine Special Operation social media activists are vocalizing rage with this second military collapse, to the extent that they are blaming Putin at least indirectly, and the military hierarchy for continued corruption, bribery and misrepresentation. While I hesitate to speculate, this could have some impact on Putin’s next moves.


Cheers
Brian G








A little late but thank you Brian for the reference to ISW. Very informative site.

Larry.
----------------------------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
jahenders
Colorado Springs CO USA
Posts: 649
Joined: 2017
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/21/2022 5:54:37 PM
Quote:

I would suggest keeping your eye on the Zaporyzhzhia - Melitopol axis the next couple of weeks. The Ukrainians have committed two of their three freshly trained divisions, one in Kherson and one in Kharkiv. Where the third one strikes is anyone's guess at this stage I suppose, but a strike to clear Melitopol would lay the foundation for retaking Mariupol AND begin operations into Crimea.

Many long nights ahead still I think.
K


I was pondering maps of Ukraine the other day, and wound up dwelling on the bridge/highway between the Crimean Peninsula and Russia (Strait of Kerch, Sea of Azov).
It struck me that this would seem to be a good target for Ukraine to destroy.
- Symbolically it would put Russia and Crimea on notice that they're union isn't a complete fait accompli
- Materially it would make it harder to supply forces in Crimea, or pushing out of Crimea

Jim
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 671
Joined: 2005
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/21/2022 9:33:32 PM
Jahenders,
trapping the Russians could see an escalation in the conflict (potential dirty weapons or nukes) for example.
Ukrainians have been drawing the Russians in deep, maybe by accident. The extended supply lines have been quite vulnerable and the bleeding of the Russian army has been a small win in the information war online etc.
Russian mothers are aware that many sons are not coming home. No matter what lies the Kremlin has been spouting on national tv. Afghan vets and mothers who lost sons in Afghanistan will know this.

Either way it will be interesting to see how the Ukrainian offensives play out. Russia ordering up a mass of conscripts shows they are not letting go or want to hold the territory they have gained.

Cheers
kaii
Oslo  Norway
Posts: 3062
Joined: 2010
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/22/2022 4:54:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:

I would suggest keeping your eye on the Zaporyzhzhia - Melitopol axis the next couple of weeks. The Ukrainians have committed two of their three freshly trained divisions, one in Kherson and one in Kharkiv. Where the third one strikes is anyone's guess at this stage I suppose, but a strike to clear Melitopol would lay the foundation for retaking Mariupol AND begin operations into Crimea.

Many long nights ahead still I think.
K


I was pondering maps of Ukraine the other day, and wound up dwelling on the bridge/highway between the Crimean Peninsula and Russia (Strait of Kerch, Sea of Azov).
It struck me that this would seem to be a good target for Ukraine to destroy.
- Symbolically it would put Russia and Crimea on notice that they're union isn't a complete fait accompli
- Materially it would make it harder to supply forces in Crimea, or pushing out of Crimea

Jim


This will be hit as soon as it is in range for HIMARS/MLRS systems.

K
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"They tried to bury us - but did not realise that we are seeds." -Volodymyr Zelenskiy, President of Ukraine
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1508
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/22/2022 5:38:23 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

I would suggest keeping your eye on the Zaporyzhzhia - Melitopol axis the next couple of weeks. The Ukrainians have committed two of their three freshly trained divisions, one in Kherson and one in Kharkiv. Where the third one strikes is anyone's guess at this stage I suppose, but a strike to clear Melitopol would lay the foundation for retaking Mariupol AND begin operations into Crimea.

Many long nights ahead still I think.
K


I was pondering maps of Ukraine the other day, and wound up dwelling on the bridge/highway between the Crimean Peninsula and Russia (Strait of Kerch, Sea of Azov).
It struck me that this would seem to be a good target for Ukraine to destroy.
- Symbolically it would put Russia and Crimea on notice that they're union isn't a complete fait accompli
- Materially it would make it harder to supply forces in Crimea, or pushing out of Crimea

Jim


This will be hit as soon as it is in range for HIMARS/MLRS systems.

K


I get the impression the Russians think they can go around causing death and destruction in the world pretty much as they please, but all Russian territory is sacred and cannot be targeted. Am I wrong?

Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1053
Joined: 2005
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/23/2022 12:23:37 AM
Quote:
I get the impression the Russians think they can go around causing death and destruction in the world pretty much as they please, but all Russian territory is sacred and cannot be targeted. Am I wrong?

Larry.



No sir, you are not.

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/24/2022 12:03:13 AM
Quote:
I get the impression the Russians think they can go around causing death and destruction in the world pretty much as they please, but all Russian territory is sacred and cannot be targeted. Am I wrong?

Larry.


No sir, you are not.
[DT]

Amen, brothers! I think the choir is in harmony on this one!

But is Russia acting much different from many other nations? With differing degrees of solemnity, all nations argue and believe their national soil is sacred, and will respond aggressively if assaulted. But there are a few who, over recent centuries, have felt that they have the right to control, attack and otherwise manipulate enemy nations or lands while not accepting reciprocal possibilities. GB’s “send a gunboat” summarizes British determination to protect British interests even while they exploited the interests of many of their colonies. The Soviet demands tabled at Yalta but largely confirmed at Potsdam created a broad buffer zone between Russia and western European powers, after which strategic or historic areas of Tsarist influence were repopulated with ethnic Russians. Kalinengrad was such a place; Crimea was another. Russia would continue to hold some of these areas after the collapse of the USSR; they would also claim (and continue to argue) that referenda in areas they have taken by force of arms are traditional Russian territories. Israel has been making similar incursions in the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and Gaza since 1967, displacing Palestinians and bulldozing their towns to build illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. But a single unguided rocket fired into Israel in response brings full retaliation. I might at least suggest that much US foreign and domestic policy follows similar patterns. The US meddled in mid-East affairs for years, in the process demonizing Islam. They supported Iraq during its war against Iran; they supported Israel in its drive as a mid-East regional power. The attack on 9/11 was responded to with a further 20 years of US attacks on Islamic states.

This isn’t a rant, I don’t think. It’s the kind of thing you think about when Ukraine nears a border with an invading nation, but for some reason doesn’t attack. I get that there are probably heavy restrictions on the use of much of their weaponry. I get that such an attack would give support to Mr Putin’s worst fears: that sacred Rodina was under attack by the West. I think the Western nations get that, because they face the same point at which they can justify full assault against any threat. I don’t think this is specific to Russia.

Nonetheless, Mr Putin’s military has so far proved unequal to what looked like a simple task: take Ukraine. And even after two “reorganizations and refocuses”, Russian boots turned to mist in the east.

The questions we should be considering are, e.g., whether the purported conscription of some 300.000 reservists could make a difference, since much of their equipment has been destroyed. Or, e.g., whether there is sufficient support for this Ukraine action (does the conscription raise it closer to being a war?) to field an army of reservists whose morale will be equal even to that demonstrated by Russian forces to date.

I’m thinking, to a large extent, with my fingers. If I’ve insulted folks, I apologize.

We’re at a critical point, without doubt. And at present, only the Ukrainian troops seem to have the capability to force issues. It is also, perhaps, a small breath of thanks that the doomsday clock, despite Mr Putin’s implied threats, remains at 100 seconds to midnight.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
kaii
Oslo  Norway
Posts: 3062
Joined: 2010
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/24/2022 6:54:49 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

I would suggest keeping your eye on the Zaporyzhzhia - Melitopol axis the next couple of weeks. The Ukrainians have committed two of their three freshly trained divisions, one in Kherson and one in Kharkiv. Where the third one strikes is anyone's guess at this stage I suppose, but a strike to clear Melitopol would lay the foundation for retaking Mariupol AND begin operations into Crimea.

Many long nights ahead still I think.
K


I was pondering maps of Ukraine the other day, and wound up dwelling on the bridge/highway between the Crimean Peninsula and Russia (Strait of Kerch, Sea of Azov).
It struck me that this would seem to be a good target for Ukraine to destroy.
- Symbolically it would put Russia and Crimea on notice that they're union isn't a complete fait accompli
- Materially it would make it harder to supply forces in Crimea, or pushing out of Crimea

Jim


This will be hit as soon as it is in range for HIMARS/MLRS systems.

K


I get the impression the Russians think they can go around causing death and destruction in the world pretty much as they please, but all Russian territory is sacred and cannot be targeted. Am I wrong?

Larry.




That sums up pretty well both how the Russians see it, and- unfortunately- how western politicians have been behaving since 1991.

To be honest, I still don't think many have woken up and understood what Russia really is.
There are still politicians arguing that "we must understand Russia's legitimate security concerns".

I say hit them everywhere and with everything.

But that is probably the smell of decaying flesh from civilians still lingering in my nose from earlier today.

K


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"They tried to bury us - but did not realise that we are seeds." -Volodymyr Zelenskiy, President of Ukraine
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/25/2022 1:19:58 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

I would suggest keeping your eye on the Zaporyzhzhia - Melitopol axis the next couple of weeks. The Ukrainians have committed two of their three freshly trained divisions, one in Kherson and one in Kharkiv. Where the third one strikes is anyone's guess at this stage I suppose, but a strike to clear Melitopol would lay the foundation for retaking Mariupol AND begin operations into Crimea.

Many long nights ahead still I think.
K


I was pondering maps of Ukraine the other day, and wound up dwelling on the bridge/highway between the Crimean Peninsula and Russia (Strait of Kerch, Sea of Azov).
It struck me that this would seem to be a good target for Ukraine to destroy.
- Symbolically it would put Russia and Crimea on notice that they're union isn't a complete fait accompli
- Materially it would make it harder to supply forces in Crimea, or pushing out of Crimea

Jim


This will be hit as soon as it is in range for HIMARS/MLRS systems.

K


I get the impression the Russians think they can go around causing death and destruction in the world pretty much as they please, but all Russian territory is sacred and cannot be targeted. Am I wrong?

Larry.




That sums up pretty well both how the Russians see it, and- unfortunately- how western politicians have been behaving since 1991.

To be honest, I still don't think many have woken up and understood what Russia really is.
There are still politicians arguing that "we must understand Russia's legitimate security concerns".

I say hit them everywhere and with everything.

But that is probably the smell of decaying flesh from civilians still lingering in my nose from earlier today.

K




Hi Kaii

I lean conservative and many of my friends who also lean the same way tell me that it is none of our business what's going on in Ukraine. They tell me that Ukraine is a corrupt country and the US must stop poking are nose in other peoples business. First thing I say is the US is a corrupt county and does that mean it would be ok to invade the US?. These same friends were ok with the invasion of Iraq in 2003, I wasnt. Kai you talk of the smell of civilian death that is chilling and Im sorry you had to deal with this and other things you have seen it will follow you to your grave I hope your strong enough to have a good life with out these things haunting you.

This Russian war makes no sense, especially for Russia, but what got me about the Russian invasion that shocked me was my parents are old, my brothers wife is pregnant, what happens to the Ukrainian families with old folks, pregnant women as the Russians blow up hospitals and for what ? and what happens to the the new born babies?, My Dad needs his medication or he could die, what about the Ukrainian Dads that need their meds? Lastly Im a dog lover my dog buries her head into my side when we get a thunder storm, imagine if they were artillery shells, how many good pups did the Russians kill how much love was turned into hate and for what?

My mother had a birthday today we were all together my nieces, nephews, granddads, moms, brothers, sisters, it was awesome I cant imagine losing any of them to a monster, I dont care I want this Russian regime dead. My conservative friends be damned, they are cowards.


I cant imagine how many Grandmothers, mothers, Dads, babies, nieces, Uncles and aunts and good dogs died for Russian paranoia it sickens me. I just hope there is a god and there will be a reckoning. There was a reckoning for the Germans and Japanese hope that god is still there.

vpatrick



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nuts
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/30/2022 11:31:59 AM
This is the kind of the senseless horror I was referring to.

[Read More]

vpatrick
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nuts
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1053
Joined: 2005
The Ukrainian Offensive
9/30/2022 12:42:02 PM
War is hell, we all know that and we see it in all the conflicts we see and read about in today's world. Here, the Russians show what I believe to be one of the overall missions in Ukraine, exterminating Ukrainians, as many as they can.

[Read More]

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
10/1/2022 5:49:58 AM
Knowledgeable commentators are now opining that Putin’s predicament is becoming increasingly difficult.

Some of his former acolytes are speaking out against his draft measures, especially when evidence of bribery and bureaucratic ineptitude comes to the fore.

Above all, the battlefield verdict looks bad for Putin, especially when an encirclement of a significant Russian force looks imminent.

A resounding Ukrainian success in this place - I can’t remember the name ( heck, they’re difficult, aren’t they ? ) - will have enormous consequences.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
The Ukrainian Offensive
10/1/2022 6:02:38 PM
wrong board sorry
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nuts
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
The Ukrainian Offensive
10/2/2022 8:35:14 PM
Phil, are you thinking of the fall of Lyman and the encirclement of Russian troops there? I’ve been out of the loop for some 48 hours (family birthday).

VP, tried a response to your post earlier, and it went pear-shaped. Lemme try again.

Although I get your concerns, I think you should not rely on WW2 and its leadership to show the way for the current horror story in Ukraine.

WSC was a political has-been in 1939. He was one of the architects of the Norway campaign, with all the disasters that included. To his credit, he attempted to carry that blame during the collapse of the Chamberlain government. But when Mr Chamberlain was driven from No 10 Downing St, WSC was prepared to take his place. He was not everybody’s choice. In fact, King George VI was personally a support of Lord Halifax as PM. Halifax was at the time an appeaser, but also a man who felt – even as German troops swept across western Europe – that an agreement could be made with Hitler.

FDR, who would play such a prominent role in WW2, was nearing the end of his second term as POTUS. He attempted to mediate at least some issues of the early European war (looking for talks between belligerents; attempting to bring belligerents into accord against the use of aerial assault on civilian targets. At least three of the major belligerents rejected his arguments and his envoy; he had no power to back his argument. And only be defying the two-term limit could he lead the US into a war. His values were not necessarily those of most US citizens. It wasn’t until PH that the US public had a cause to go to war: by that time, agreements between the US and GB (and Soviet Russia, to some extent) were well in place to attack “Germany first” and then Japan. He planned far beyond his promised in 1940, and worked against the overt values of his constituency.

I don’t know that the “saviour” you’re looking for is the US president. A previous US president created a rift between long-standing political/military allies, so I’m not sure the US president can claim to be the acknowledged leader of the Free World, or West, or whatever. The US is, however, one of the great suppliers of modern weaponry. At this point, this is the role many seem to expect it to play. Mr Biden may appear to be a weak leader, and/or one with cognitive challenges. But he is capable of providing weaponry to Ukraine that is vital at this time.

We’re 8 months into a conflict that has yet to be deemed – on one side, for political purposes; on the other, out of fear of nuclear exchange – a war. I sense what VP is searching for is some kind of end-game strategy. It’s too early to expect that, IMHO, though perhaps we’re on the cusp. And that may be the frightening issue.

What did Emerson write?
…mere things are in the saddle
And ride mankind.

Just a quick final note. There are still possibilities for a negotiated settlement. It would probably involve discussions with the Warsaw Bloc nations (including Ukraine) and Russia: NATO would be linked, because NATO expansion to the east is a large part of the unspoken issue still.

And VP, I believe we’re still holding at 100 seconds to midnight!

Cheers
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

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