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DT509er
Santa Rosa
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Posts: 1259
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Germany's, A Change of force
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An interesting read from Germany's defense state secretary, Siemtje Möller. Seems Germany is learning some hard lessons and attempting to make the proper moves to establish security economically, politically and militarily.
"The Russian war of aggression in Ukraine is a turning point for Europe."
[Read More]
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Germany's, A Change of force
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What is mind-numbingly stupid of Europe is why wasn`t the Russian invasion and then annexation of the Crimea "a wake up call"....a "turning point?" Why wasn`t the shooting down of a passenger airliner with the significant loss of human life "a turning point" for Germany and all of Europe?
During this whole time these people laughed and belittled the very idea of upping their own military defense spending and making NATO stronger...and the fools then just handed over their energy needs to little brat Greta, and THE RUSSIANS!
And this is why Americans are fed up...our admonitions to stop tying energy dependence to Russia, and to spend more on defense were laughed at...and look who is now spending more, by far, on defense resources and weapons to help Ukraine defend itself.....WE ARE! It`s a disgrace.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Russian gas has been attractive to Europe because it was easy to transport and almost always available. Its importance grew in recent years as some countries moved to end coal and nuclear power generation and production from their own gas fields declined. Russian state-controlled company Gazprom was supplying about a third of all gas consumed in Europe, until the war in Ukraine disrupted supplies and underscored the risk of overdependence on one energy provider.
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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No disgraced at all. The US is standing up to a bully, unlike the previous administration.
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
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Posts: 1259
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote:
What is mind-numbingly stupid of Europe is why wasn`t the Russian invasion and then annexation of the Crimea "a wake up call"....a "turning point?" Why wasn`t the shooting down of a passenger airliner with the significant loss of human life "a turning point" for Germany and all of Europe?
During this whole time these people laughed and belittled the very idea of upping their own military defense spending and making NATO stronger...and the fools then just handed over their energy needs to little brat Greta, and THE RUSSIANS!
And this is why Americans are fed up...our admonitions to stop tying energy dependence to Russia, and to spend more on defense were laughed at...and look who is now spending more, by far, on defense resources and weapons to help Ukraine defend itself.....WE ARE! It`s a disgrace.
Respects, Morris
Agree Morris.
IMO, $$$ is/was the driving factor as well as changing/furthering the political landscape from individual nations to a "union" at the detriment of a long term vision of security of national economics & politics and, military purpose and capabilities. Staying on Germany, their reckless drive for green energy and dependence upon the fossil fuels from Russia has placed them in a possibly horrible position. So much so, they are now pretty much forced to not only re-purpose their military, but provide military support to/for Ukraine all the while holding their breaths Mother Nature does not wreck havoc this winter; this is something I truly believe they never envisioned, or willingly ignored, and that is a political failure.
When I did some training with the German Bundeswehr troops 1981, they were good troops doing their duty. Times have changed and now Putin has shown Germany the folly of their dependence and political ignorance.
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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jahenders
Colorado Springs
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: No disgraced at all. The US is standing up to a bully, unlike the previous administration.
By "previous administration" do you mean Obama, who did NOTHING when Russia seized Crimea and inserted forces into contested areas of Ukraine?
Jim
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jahenders
Colorado Springs
CO USA
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote:
When I did some training with the German Bundeswehr troops 1981, they were good troops doing their duty. Times have changed and now Putin has shown Germany the folly of their dependence and political ignorance.
No only dependence and political ignorance, but also the folly of blind faith in renewable energy's ability to run virtually everything in the short term. Unless you include nuclear power in the mix, the vast majority of countries cannot currently meet their energy needs without some fossil fuel or another.
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 12980
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Germany's, A Change of force
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This is where military aid comes from. Not all countries have massive stockpiles of military equipment to share.
The source is Statista which is supposed to be a reliable source with a high degree of credibility. If someone knows something to the contrary, please weigh in.
[Read More]
I do not recall any NATO country belittling the suggestion that each country should increase military spending. They may have belittled the messenger of the last US regime but not the message. As well, NATO countries had already implemented a plan to increase spending before the messenger treated his allies rudely.
This thread is treading dangerously on that space that we have been asked to ignore. Careful.
I don't understand the enmity toward Greta Thunberg. To call her a "brat" is most unfair. She is a most impressive young person especially when we consider that she was diagnosed as someone on the autism spectrum, albeit the lower end. That's quite a load to bear for someone in the public eye.
I am impressed with the passion with which young people approach the causes that mean so much to them. And climate change is one. Call her naive perhaps but not a "brat". She has to live in this world that my generation has buggered up.
As I recall she won the 1 million Euro Gulbenkian Prize for Humanity and then donated it to various other charities.
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kaii
Oslo
Norway
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Germany's, A Change of force
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This is a good source for an overview of aid to Ukraine, it covers both military aid, financial aid and various other aspects.
[Read More]
Asalways it comes down to a discussion about absolute versus relative numbers.
In absolute terms, no country can come even close to the US in terms of aid, be it military or financial.
In relativeterms, i.e. relative to population,to GDP etc, the picture is not quite as clearas shown by the date in the Kiel Institute source
For instance
[Read More]
Having said that, I can not agree more with Morris that NATO countries MUST increase the defence spending and should have done so years ago. My own country, Norway, despite being the second largest military spender in NATO per capita (at some 66% of the USspending level) is still stuck around 1.5-1.6% of GDP, which is not nearly where I would want to be. Hopefully that will change with the extreme profits generated from the war in Ukraine now...
I am still not convinced European politicians have fully grasped the picture. Many still hope Putin will go away and Russia will be "nice" again, perhaps with another cuddly drunk like Yeltsin in charge.
For those of us that have warned since 1991 that Russia hasn't changed, and been ridiculed for it, this should feel like a moment of vindication. Instead I just feel sad that the message still has not been received and check my stocks of survival gear regularly....
K
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"They tried to bury us - but did not realise that we are seeds." -Volodymyr Zelenskiy, President of Ukraine
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George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
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Posts: 12980
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Germany's, A Change of force
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I don't know whether this Statista chart was in the ones provided by Kaii.
This shows contributions to Ukraines as a percentage of GDP but seems to show more countries. Valid to Oct. 3, 2022
[Read More]
George
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: I am still not convinced European politicians have fully grasped the picture. Many still hope Putin will go away and Russia will be "nice" again, perhaps with another cuddly drunk like Yeltsin in charge.
For those of us that have warned since 1991 that Russia hasn't changed, and been ridiculed for it, this should feel like a moment of vindication. Instead I just feel sad that the message still has not been received and check my stocks of survival gear regularly....
K
Excellent point kaii, the following from Former Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer February of 2022 via a Twitter post: "I'm so angry at ourselves for our historical failure. After Georgia, Crimea, and Donbas, we have not prepared anything that would have really deterred Putin."
Reading the below article surely must have depressed a few German citizens, soldiers and politicians while hopefully awakening them to the state in which they themselves cornered their nation into.
[Read More]
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
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Germany's, A Change of force
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It`s called strategic thinking and policy. It`s where you recognize that:
Making your own country energy independent makes you stronger as a nation. It means producing more Natural Gas and Oil...to add to the world market...which makes gas and oil cheaper.
Cheaper gas and oil means less profit.......to Vladimir Putin...who relies on higher market prices to finance his mischief!
Cheaper energy bad for Vlad....good for the US and Europe.
Keeping the means of production more and more at home, means others like, oh I don`t know, say like China in the bottle with less control over your country. It`s called leverage.
Shaming, if needed, to get NATO members to actually meet their 2 percent GDP military spending...strengthens NATO.
Strong NATO bad for Vlad....good for the US and Europe.
But , instead we allowed cultists who actually wanted us all to follow a child who knows nothing to get rid of nuclear power, coal, all while allowing the bad guys, China and Russia to continue to pollute like hell....and gain that strategic leverage. And believe me, those two will use that leverage for no good.
Kaii, you seem to understand the frustration that is involved in being told to shut up, you don`t know what your talking about...by folks who are following a kid to ruin.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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No, I mean the Imposter's Administration, as he did the work of Putin by under-mining the democracy in Ukraine.
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vpatrick
MA
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Germany's, A Change of force
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deleted not worth it
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nuts
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
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Germany's, A Change of force
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It`s called strategic thinking, part 2:
Instead of dunder-heading into an agreement with Iran, one of the most dangerous and brutal regimes, that basically allows them to obtain nuclear capability gradually.....you acknowledge that the middle-east will explode with nukes if that ever is allowed to happen. That we will then have a nuclear Saudi Arabia, a nuclear Egypt, etc etc.
So, a strategic thinker forges alliances with the natural enemies of Iran. You advance the Abraham Accords, you actually take advantage of the situation to foster the alliance between the Saudis and Israeli`s over the use of Saudi airbases if an attack is needed.
When you do this, you not only make the region a bit safer, but when you then cut oil and gas production, announce it is going away soon...then decide you don`t want to get hit by record gas prices, you can then expect to go begging the Saudi`s to up their production and help you out. If you mindlessly state that you will allow Iran to get nuclear at some point...and you harp on the murder of a Muslim Brotherhood journalist ( weigh the importance of that against the universe of potential troubles in the region...I mean Iran murders women in jail for not wearing a head cover for God`s sake) then how could you expect the Saudi`s to help you artificially keep the oil prices lower to cover for you?
And it is dangerous to continue to draw for months from our oil reserves ( now lower than in forty years) oh, and our supply of diesel, that all trains and big-rigs, and ships run on is down to about 25 days. It`s a STRATEGIC oil reserve isn`t it...so lets drain it down over the course of months...not for a natural disaster, but to fool people about the costs of gas at the pumps.
No, it`s not just Europe who has dunder-headed it`s way to serious trouble for it`s people.
According to what Dan and others have posted, some in Germany are waking up to the real world, and maybe turning away from becoming a Village Of The Damned type entity. I just hope this winter is mild, and not too many people die of sickness and freezing.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: No, I mean the Imposter's Administration, as he did the work of Putin by under-mining the democracy in Ukraine.
Zzzzzzzzzz...
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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I guess you forgot about sending weapons in exchange for dirt on Biden.
The Imposter tried it here too, but his minions failed to stop the Electoral College from meeting.
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: I guess you forgot about sending weapons in exchange for dirt on Biden.
The Imposter tried it here too, but his minions failed to stop the Electoral College from meeting.
Give it up. You're beating a long dead horse.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Someone has to tell the facts, ...might as well be me!
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: Someone has to tell the facts, ...might as well be me!
Try and let us know when you start.
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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I started a few comments ago. Where have you been?
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
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Germany's, A Change of force
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As Germany works its way back to national security, what of Poland? Belarus leadership seems to be stoking the rhetoric of a widening war by claiming' "the "militarization of Poland" and its "aggressive intentions,", thus potentially widening the war in Eastern Europe.
While much of the news associated world-wide with the Ukraine conflict must be read with caution, I do not see much reporting, insight, etc., of how this war is affecting Poland. Bordering the Ukraine and Belarus and with the menace of Russia and its historical mistreatment of the Polish peoples, the impact of Poland as a NATO country surely must be of concern to Putin and Lukashenko. I know the 82nd Airborne and 173rd have spent time in Poland training, (reconnoitering/Intel gathering?) and largely from my perspective things have remained calm on the political-military front between Poland-Belarus-Russia, well at least until now.
[Read More]
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Putin won't fool around with a NATO country. The risk is too great. Plus the Poles have an old score to settle with the Russians.
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vpatrick
MA
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: Someone has to tell the facts, ...might as well be me!
[Read More]
Both political parties have been messing with Ukraine, Biden's son was on the board of Burisma a Ukrainian fuel energy company that a Ukrainian attorney general was about to about to investigate, Joe Biden said in public that he had him fired or they would not get a billion dollars in US aid(up top in the read more). Hunter was being paid 50k a month for sitting on a board with no experience in any kind of energy business, it was most likely for access to Joe Biden. In the famous "phone call" Trump was stupidly looking for dirt on this relationship which led to impeachment hearings. Although I support Biden's efforts in supporting the Ukraine war one has to wonder. Im sure more will come to light in the next congress. Thanks for your facts and thank god for our innocent demented lilly white president Joe Biden.
vpatrick
p.s I apologize to the rest of MHO community for responding I could not help myself, I realize my personal views may provoke others who think opposite and whom I respect here, but there are always two sides of the story, one we want to see, and one that is true, we are blinded by our biases. I am just a regular guy and am guilty of this and have endeavored not to get political. But I try to acknowledge I don't know everything and those that think they do are the ones that are tearing apart the fabric of our society. why I couldn't shut up
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nuts
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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WRONG!!
The Ukrainian AG was not going to investigate, because he was corrupt. Joe Biden, as VP was just re-iterating the US policy towards Ukraine, along with the rest of Europe, that the AG was corrupt because he was not investigating anyone.
It was Trump who told Zelensky, do me a favor and get dirt on Biden.
I apologize, but there is a fabric of our country that is trying to destroy our republic. You can tell who they are because they attacked the Capital on January 6th and assaulted police officers.
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vpatrick
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Funny you never mentioned Hunter and you all forget about this [Read More]. The executive branch is also a co-equal branch of government and the left was trying to storm it and burn it down, 50 secret service agents injured, a threat to the republic for sure, dont remember fire and this kind of violence on Jan 6, just a bunch of dumb folks who should have stayed home the dems made it out like it was a revolution. If the country votes for who they want to represent them because the other party has failed them then that is democracy and those that demonize/their opponents or dont like the results by burning things down they are actually the threat to democracy. I have been on the losing end many times I take it like a man and dont burn anything down. In a few days we will know how this country feels and it will be interesting how many new election deniers and election process haters are out there or how many buildings are burned in the name of democracy.
vpatrick
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nuts
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Under the US Constitution, the people have a right to assembly. The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. What those people were demonstrating against was the actual murder of a presumed innocent man by a police officer. Realize that in the US, Afro-Americans were slaves for 200 years and then in 1865, when liberated, they had to wait another 100 years before they could exercise the same right s as White men.
Antifa or who-ever you want to say , did not try and remove our democracy. The insurrectionist did try to disrupt the Electoral College,and they were egged on by the Orange Imposter.
The US Constitution does not give anyone the right to attack and try to over-throw the duly elected Government. Please show me where it says that.
If you didn't see any violence, I can show you videos of the insurrectionists using flag poles to attack the police.
IF the Republicans lose the election, I already know they will cry that the results were tainted. it's only a good election when they win.
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vpatrick
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Thanks NY,
Your obsession with Jan 6th that no cares about [Read More] is why you will lose. Also why your party will lose you spent the last 2 years talking about Trump and how much you hate him, and the threat's of democracy while old folks need 1500 bucks to fill their oil tanks where it cost half that 2 years ago. I want to thank the left for attacking Trump. Desantis is rising. You dont even know it but dems are doing the work of the next nomination
vpatrick
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scoucer
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Wanted to make some serious comment but the thread is down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass. Sorry Dan and Kai.
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Americans want to know what happened on Jan 6th, that an out-going US Imposter tried to have the election nullified.
Congress has passed more legislation that the Imposters 4 years...and no tax break for the rich. How do you like paaying their share of taxes?
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vpatrick
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: Wanted to make some serious comment but the thread is down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass. Sorry Dan and Kai.
Trevor
my apologies
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vpatrick
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: Americans want to know what happened on Jan 6th, that an out-going US Imposter tried to have the election nullified.
Congress has passed more legislation that the Imposters 4 years...and no tax break for the rich. How do you like paaying their share of taxes?[/
imagine backstroking through a calm pond
vpatrick
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vpatrick
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Germany's, A Change of force
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delete
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Understood Vin, sometimes it is not easy ignoring an ignorant agitator as NY is. That said, even if I failed at that in this post on a small level, ignoring any comments he makes goes a long way. We all have our opinions and thoughts on matters, current and historical, but to fall into his flytrap does nothing more than hurt this site. Thus, my attempt to bring it back to the real issues in Eastern Europe (Poland post).
Personally, Putins' death/power dismissal cannot come quick enough, he really is nothing more than a state terrorist at this stage of events and lining up with Iran proves such.
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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Larry Purtell
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Quote: Wanted to make some serious comment but the thread is down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass. Sorry Dan and Kai.
Trevor
I was enjoying the beginning of this thread, but it seems another one bites the dust.
Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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NYGiant
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Germany's, A Change of force
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The sorry thing is, too many Americans have swallowed the Kool-Aid that the Imposter and his ignorant followers are pedaling.
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
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Posts: 1259
Joined: 2005
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Germany's, A Change of force
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The power of Putin lies mainly in his ability to retain control of the military and of the elite, the Russian Oligarchs. Sanctions against these peoples has been shoddy in focus and purpose. The Ukrainian think thank, International Centre for Policy Studies (ICPS) and as confirmed by the Atlantic Council’s Russia Sanctions Database, sanctions against these Russian elites is not effective or enacted in a manner that actually hurts the elites as well as Putin.
As an example; "The US, EU, UK, and Canada have each sanctioned more than a thousand individuals along with hundreds of entities, but have not done so according to a common list. For example, Russian steel magnate Vladimir Potanin has been sanctioned by the UK but not the EU or US, despite being named by the US Treasury in 2018 as a member of Putin’s inner circle. Roman Abramovich has been sanctioned in the UK and the EU but not the US. Viktor Vekselberg, another oligarch reputedly close to the Kremlin, has been sanctioned in the US since 2018 and more recently by the UK, but not the EU."
As these elites; sorry I am at a loss of words/phrases to use to identify these people, run and control much of the commercial and private industry's in Russia, and that they are in alignment with Putin who provides them state assurances and business opportunities domestically and internationally, the two combined drive the war in the Ukraine, in addition to Russian aggression overall. If you can crack the money line to these Russian elites in a manner that is as brutal as the actual fighting in the Ukraine, then the world may see results that if not ending Putins leadership could bring about real attempts to negotiations of ending the Ukrainian War.
Can the western countries come together to develop a sanction plan that is bought into by each entity as well as the enforcement of or, is this just more political stalling due to each nations/groups political ambitions?
P.S. If NY G cannot stick to the discussion, please do not engage his agitating behavior. Many of us have fallen into his little black hole and in far too many discussions he and the follow up's have ruined such discussion. Yes, I am as guilty as anyone. My point is, stick to the discussion if it interests you, including if NYG participates in a manner that is proactive, not agitative.
Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3157
Joined: 2007
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Dan, it would be good to have a post from Bill in Poland. I`m sure he could render some thoughtful insights.
Putin is clearly suffering some illness. While I am not happy about spending hundreds of billions on Ukraine, after spending hundreds of billions ( times ten) on a twenty year war that we just got out of, we have to step it up. I also agree with Zelensky that this crime was begun in Crimea...and it must end there.
It is also unclear, when comparing the ruble to the dollar...just exactly who sanctioned who. Clearly the sanctions are not being co-ordinate d properly. Fundamentally however, the best, most stringent and damaging sanction on Putin........is cheap gas and oil. Too bad that is such a hard concept for some people to understand.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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scoucer
Berlin
Germany
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Posts: 3154
Joined: 2010
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Bill hasn´t been on MHO since 2021. Hasn´t posted since 2018. He and his wife wanted to visit Berlin Christmas markets and there was a planned meet up. Covid screwed that up. Haven´t heard anything since.
It is believed, but not confirmed, that Putin has pancreatic cancer.
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3157
Joined: 2007
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Germany's, A Change of force
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Thanks for that info Trevor. Sorry you couldn`t connect up. Covid was good for that, and killing over a million people here. Funny how we don`t need any hearings into its origins !
So, why is the US pressuring Ukraine and Zelensky into peace negotiations with that Russian pig. What`s to negotiate. Is this the latest attempt to call Zelensky a cab?
Just wondering, why we would pressure Zelensky to negotiate...at the very moment Ukraine is in operational momentum, liberating hundreds of towns and hundreds of thousands of it`s citizens from Russian control...while stories are coming in of mass Russian troop mutinies, use of blocking forces to stop troops from withdrawing, and disorganization.? Why?
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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