MILITARY HISTORY ONLINE

User:  
Password:  
 
 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)
Message
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2004
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
11/30/2022 3:50:11 PM
I saw several clips on You Tune of Russians reservists/conscripts in Ukraine carrying WWII era Mosin Nagant rifles. Has Russia pulled any other WWII era weapons out of mothballs for active service?

Larry.
----------------------------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1144
Joined: 2005
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
11/30/2022 4:17:35 PM
Quote:
Has Russia pulled any other WWII era weapons out of mothballs for active service?
Leadership capabilities!?!

I have yet to see a clip of that, would be interesting to see and, I just watched a video y'day of the Ukrainians using an M101 105mm howitzer which I believe delivered in July of this year. Russian armaments, unit tactics and the overall strategy continue to perplex many of us.
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2004
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
11/30/2022 4:43:12 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Has Russia pulled any other WWII era weapons out of mothballs for active service?
Leadership capabilities!?!

I have yet to see a clip of that, would be interesting to see and, I just watched a video y'day of the Ukrainians using an M101 105mm howitzer which I believe delivered in July of this year. Russian armaments, unit tactics and the overall strategy continue to perplex many of us.


Here's a link to one the clips I saw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpV0StuKTz0


Larry.
----------------------------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4454
Joined: 2004
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
11/30/2022 8:32:09 PM
For the ease of other viewers, Larry’s link can be found here: [Read More]

Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 744
Joined: 2005
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/1/2022 12:12:55 AM
Haven't checked those clips but others I have seen show in one case maxim guns being used and a T-34 tank!
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4454
Joined: 2004
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/1/2022 7:25:11 PM
Interesting issue, IMHO. But …

I’m a very old, cynical, distrustful old coot who doesn’t know who to believe. Over the course of my adult life, I have developed a distrust of RFE and like enterprises. I’m also a very old, cynical, distrustful old coot who has never served in the military or faced an enemy in military combat. Hence, my comments may be silly, naive, or ignorant. They may be worse; they could be offensive out of ignorance, for which I apologize in advance.

I don’t see what the use of older equipment is all about. I certainly don’t believe that the issue of old rifles is by definition an indication of Soviet weakness. Seems to me that we are entering a different phase of the Ukrainian war/incursion/liberation, when in Ukraine the earth has turned to gumbo and major mechanized action will be limited until freeze-up. That could happen in 2 weeks or not for 2 months. In the meanwhile, Russian military activity is largely committed to making Ukrainian civilian life as pre-industrial as possible. It’s a repulsive strategy, IMHO, but it may be very effective.

In a related issue, Russian troops (except for the questionably normal private groups such as the Wagner Group) have entered a state of hibernation, in which military action has been replaced by place-keeping. My assumption is that many of the Russian regular army has been withdrawn for R’nR and/or for retraining/reassignment, leaving the recent conscripts to hold the fort for the present. What weapons do those conscripts require? What equipment were they trained on?

Granted this scenario takes in little account of ordnance differences. And granted, the use of ancient equipment suggests shortages of frightening proportions. But in 1940, Canadian Artillery in Britain were – as late as the collapse of France – equipped with WW1 75 mm guns, including some with iron-hooped wooden wheels. I believe they were given something like 8 shells per gun. The newer guns – the guns the Canadians expected – were in short supply, but were being turned out at a great pace. They were equipping British Artillery regiments, on the theory (I have to assume) that in British eyes the newer guns would be wasted on Canadian troops without British training. That chimes with those old rifles and the T-34 Wazza mentions. That’s a bloody old tank. But if you were in combat, which would you want behind you: a T-34, or nothing?!

It’s interesting to consider what we hear about the air war, where for the moment Russia seems to have the advantage. They are using (and now manufacturing) Iranian drones. Yes, that may mean they have depleted their own stock of missiles – those suckers are expensive for what is often a single use! But it might also mean that for the present a knock-off of an Iranian drone is all that is needed, given the reduction of Ukraine Air resources and the rate at which Ukraine is receiving hand-held G to A missiles from the West.

Just some thoughts. Open to redirection, better alternatives and/or re-education.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 744
Joined: 2005
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/1/2022 9:10:39 PM
On the other side of the coin, there are disturbing report coming out of the Ukraine of modern Western weapons shipments going missing. Especially small arms, ammunition and anti tank weapons.
Seems corruption amongst officials isn't entirely a Soviet thing during a time of war....
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 744
Joined: 2005
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/1/2022 9:10:52 PM
On the other side of the coin, there are disturbing report coming out of the Ukraine of modern Western weapons shipments going missing. Especially small arms, ammunition and anti tank weapons.
Seems corruption amongst officials isn't entirely a Soviet thing during a time of war....
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1144
Joined: 2005
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/2/2022 12:01:18 PM
Quote:
On the other side of the coin, there are disturbing report coming out of the Ukraine of modern Western weapons shipments going missing. Especially small arms, ammunition and anti tank weapons.
Seems corruption amongst officials isn't entirely a Soviet thing during a time of war....


Corruption itself is an undermining problem in the Ukraine deriving in politics, the military, international support, etc.

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3080
Joined: 2007
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/2/2022 11:06:03 PM
Absolutely dt. Ukraine has been, for very many years, one of the most corrupt places on earth. it is a known fact that both parties here...but mostly one in particular was all over the place, necks deep in corruption. And now....after we just concluded one twenty year war, in which our military commanders and our leaders lied to us for decades...about training the Afghan security forces to "stand alone"......or even about little PR things...remember that female soldier who was captured when the trucks in her support team took a wrong turn, and the military made her out to be a female Rambo....but none of that was true.... or the lies they told about the death of Pat Tillman, a true hero...but they covered up the fact...known to them at the time, that it was a friendly fire event......yet we must belief that hundreds of billions of dollars are not being thrown down a rat hole in Ukraine?

And, while it was brought up earlier that the US is in a position to provide more weapons than EU or NATO nations can...that may be true...but they can certainly pony up more cash to cover the costs being eaten by the US taxpayer... yet again! Some of us are quite sick and tired of being the ally that pays the freight.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1144
Joined: 2005
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/3/2022 1:39:41 PM
Quote:
Absolutely dt. Ukraine has been, for very many years, one of the most corrupt places on earth. it is a known fact that both parties here...but mostly one in particular was all over the place, necks deep in corruption. And now....after we just concluded one twenty year war, in which our military commanders and our leaders lied to us for decades...about training the Afghan security forces to "stand alone"......or even about little PR things...remember that female soldier who was captured when the trucks in her support team took a wrong turn, and the military made her out to be a female Rambo....but none of that was true.... or the lies they told about the death of Pat Tillman, a true hero...but they covered up the fact...known to them at the time, that it was a friendly fire event......yet we must belief that hundreds of billions of dollars are not being thrown down a rat hole in Ukraine?

And, while it was brought up earlier that the US is in a position to provide more weapons than EU or NATO nations can...that may be true...but they can certainly pony up more cash to cover the costs being eaten by the US taxpayer... yet again! Some of us are quite sick and tired of being the ally that pays the freight.

Respects, Morris


Agree Morris. Unfortunately, until Putin is gone or at least his power greatly diminished the duration of this war depends upon the continued $$ and military weapon support from the US and western European countries. If any country caves in within the western European region to the whims of Putin, Ukraine will be left out in the cold. As the mud begins to freeze, Russian and Wagner offensive actions are sure to occur, as well as possibly continued Ukrainian offensive actions.

At this point, this is a slugging match that just might be exactly what Putin wants; drain financial, energy, military and manpower resources to straining points and the house will crumble from within. Add in corruption, misappropriation of weapons and munitions, etc., (good Lord, an audit to see what went where and if it got there would most likely stun the average citizen) it is understandable to see that time appears to be on Putins side.

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2342
Joined: 2020
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/3/2022 4:21:51 PM
I dont get the notion by some (im not saying anyone here I think folks on MHO are just advising caution) that Ukraine does not deserve our support because they are a corrupt country. The US is a corrupt country, remember all of those pallets of cash(billions) that went to Iraq and Afghanistan to be used to make friends that went missing? How about the billions that went missing during massive unemployment money scams for Covid payouts(billions upon billions)? How about in 2008 when Banks had to bailed out for corrupt lending practices and we the people had to pay for all this. Well at least the government investigated and put folks in jail, ahh no they didnt in fact the government bailed out the banks, to big to fail remember, no real investigations? My point is if somehow the US was invaded would we be deserving of help I would think not if corruption was the standard.

What country and who makes the standard and who decides what a corrupt country looks like? Another corrupt country? If its the US good luck. In the US a traffic cop most likely wont ask you for 50 bucks to forgive a speeding ticket our corruption only benefits the rich, the little guy in the US for the most part is honest. Politicians in the US are allowed to trade on the stock market even when they are voting on bills that effect the stock market price, presidents leave office and suddenly are close to billionaires after entering office upper middle class with less than a million net worth or maybe a little more. One must ask which kind of corruption is worse, massive rip offs of billion dollars by already rich folks or the foreign country customs agent on a shitty salary that needs to feed a family and economic security and enjoy some of the luxuries we in the western world take for granted. Who is worse the custom agent or billionaire?

Obvious answer is neither; corruption can sink a country but it exists in all countries and for the US to take a holier than now approach by some on the right is ridiculous. Maybe Ukraine commits both kinds of corruption big and small but the children of Ukraine are getting bombed, cities are smashed beyond belief, a two day old baby got killed the other day by a Russian missile strike. I wrestle with what is the best thing to do here, should the west continue to support Ukraine? Is the West extending the war, are we not doing enough? Give em Abrams tanks and F-15s finish em off? But then I think I dunno Im an idiot Im a regular guy I dont know anything my government tells me little, but I do know if the standard of a helping a country because of corruption should not be the standard my country has no business deciding whos corrupt and who is not.

vpatrick
----------------------------------
nuts
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4454
Joined: 2004
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/3/2022 8:41:50 PM
Well said, VP. I don’t know that I’d be as harsh as you appear to be when speaking about corruption in the US. After all, corruption comes in many forms: financial; social, political, moral, cultural. If the US has its share of corruption, so too does any other nation I can think of.

I tend to accept to some extent comments by Morris and DT about historical political corruption in Ukraine, though I think a look at many post-USSR member states (Belarus, Hungary, Poland spring to mind; to them might be added Russia and Ukraine) would show various levels of various corruptions as challenges being overcome to various degrees. IMHO, this is part of the process of determining what kind of nation one might belong to. Democratic republicanism is one choice, but so is socialism, parliamentary democracy, theocracy and a host of others. Most nations rising out of the USSR have had little or no experience in any of these options over the past century.

I do wonder why corruption is raised as an issue when talking about US support for various countries, factions or regimes. For more than a century, US military and foreign policies have supported hosts of corrupt regimes with little concern. Most of the time, the support was given (or even forced) for either economic and/or strategic reasons. Just as examples, the Bay of Pigs fiasco went forth largely in response to Cuba’s refusal to pay off big business interests (and, it is rumoured, mobsters) who had taken control of Cuba under Batista. Only after that did Castro look to the USSR. Salvador Allende, murdered – it is accepted – during a CIA coup, was replaced by a military thug. In neither case was a question of morality raised. The same issues might be considered during the original Ortega years, or the continued support of Noriega, or the support of South Vietnam governance, or support of Iraq because they were enemies of Iran, or the continuing support of Saudi Arabia. To raise issues of corruption and/or morality in Ukraine without considering US support of such regimes allows IMHO a person to question what has motivated the corruption question concerning Ukraine.

My point is, I guess, that the US has an inflated description of what its sphere of influence might be, and an inordinate sensitivity to whatever political activities might threaten it. To support those attitudes, the US has maintained a standing military force that far outdistances in funding and power the military of any other nation – or even combinations of nations. The US may expect that, for such expense, they deserve both thanks and recognition. I might argue that, since their role is self-defined, they should not expect thanks. They should be grateful that their allies let them get away with the nonsense that goes along with their military commitments.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3080
Joined: 2007
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/4/2022 8:52:48 AM
Vp, ....we,( meaning the US and Europe) should have been shedding tears for the children and innocent civilians who died when Putin dogs shot down a passenger liner during their take-over of Crimea. That was the prelude to Ukraine.

We all should have been concerned that Putin`s obvious, long-term, goal was to leverage energy supplies and pipelines to Europe to pay for his "adventurism" and to hold Europe hostage.

Hell, we all know that the left in Europe and here was financed and used to create unrest over independent-energy production....meant to destroy our own ability to empower ourselves....to help create that leverage for Putin and Russia. Anyone who didn`t see that ...is a fool.

So we follow a no-nothing elf...and get rid of nuclear power plants, we get rid of an all-in production of our electric grids, and instead move ourselves to reliance on less reliant wind and solar, hell we are now even seeing a move by so called environmentalists to close down 8...EIGHT hydroelectric dams, at a time when they demand more EV`s....at a time when we already have power outages and brown-outs...and all that in the midst of a drought in the US west.

This was all something that we should have woke up to see. Most didn`t, blinded by virtue signaling, moronic, shortsightedness.

So, a nation that now has the highest GDP to debt ratio in history ( since WW2) spends billions on fighting an evil tyrant that is an existential threat ( together with China) and all because we were railroaded for years into blindly accepting that our greatest existential threat is climate change!" And we are supposed to spend that money without question, without accountability and without an audit? Pure BS!

I feel for those poor Ukrainian children and civilians who have been pounded into dust by Putin.....but it is just a bit too damn late to wake up to facts....and cry about it now. We should have kept our eyes on the ball...instead we allowed little Greta to pied piper us into a bad place....and Ukrainians are paying the heavy price.. Putin was empowered by our ignorance of what was really going on.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2342
Joined: 2020
Russian weapons in Ukraine.
12/4/2022 8:20:03 PM
Quote:
Vp, ....we,( meaning the US and Europe) should have been shedding tears for the children and innocent civilians who died when Putin dogs shot down a passenger liner during their take-over of Crimea. That was the prelude to Ukraine.

We all should have been concerned that Putin`s obvious, long-term, goal was to leverage energy supplies and pipelines to Europe to pay for his "adventurism" and to hold Europe hostage.

Hell, we all know that the left in Europe and here was financed and used to create unrest over independent-energy production....meant to destroy our own ability to empower ourselves....to help create that leverage for Putin and Russia. Anyone who didn`t see that ...is a fool.

So we follow a no-nothing elf...and get rid of nuclear power plants, we get rid of an all-in production of our electric grids, and instead move ourselves to reliance on less reliant wind and solar, hell we are now even seeing a move by so called environmentalists to close down 8...EIGHT hydroelectric dams, at a time when they demand more EV`s....at a time when we already have power outages and brown-outs...and all that in the midst of a drought in the US west.

This was all something that we should have woke up to see. Most didn`t, blinded by virtue signaling, moronic, shortsightedness.

So, a nation that now has the highest GDP to debt ratio in history ( since WW2) spends billions on fighting an evil tyrant that is an existential threat ( together with China) and all because we were railroaded for years into blindly accepting that our greatest existential threat is climate change!" And we are supposed to spend that money without question, without accountability and without an audit? Pure BS!

I feel for those poor Ukrainian children and civilians who have been pounded into dust by Putin.....but it is just a bit too damn late to wake up to facts....and cry about it now. We should have kept our eyes on the ball...instead we allowed little Greta to pied piper us into a bad place....and Ukrainians are paying the heavy price.. Putin was empowered by our ignorance of what was really going on.

Respects, Morris


Yes Morris mistakes were made by Europe in depending on Russian gas and trying to do something about climate change, I would never have imagined the Russians would have done what they did as far as invading Ukraine, and I think Europe may have thought if they were buying so much gas and as pipelines were built Russia would not act as they did it was a gamble and Europe lost. But it still does not mean the world should let Ukraine go, Russia is paying a high price for what they did.

vpatrick







----------------------------------
nuts

© 2023 - MilitaryHistoryOnline.com LLC