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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)
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Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 742
Joined: 2005
Patriot Missiles for the Ukraine
12/23/2022 6:39:15 PM
With Zelensky's current visit to Washington and the US's promise of Patriot Missile batteries for air defence in the Ukraine, what's everyone's thoughts on this new addition to the Ukraine inventory?
As well as up to 18.5 billion in more military aid.
So many additional questions to ask and ponder:
Training. Up to 12 months for the 3x man operator crew and 12+ months for the maintenance crews. (all approximate times). Or
Employ already qualified and experienced personnel as contractors to operate this system. Something like up to 300 pers (potentially part of the Foreign Legion or a new Foreign formation).
Can the USA sustain another aid package of this extraordinary amount of money when conditions in the US for the average citizen is so hard?
Can the US maintain some control over the disposition and security of this weapon system when, so much military aid is being syphoned off by corrupt officials for financial gain?
Makes you wonder doesn't it!

vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2342
Joined: 2020
Patriot Missiles for the Ukraine
12/23/2022 8:25:59 PM
The US is playing a dangerous game and I don't think our leaders fully understand the situation. Just as we failed at hearts and minds in Iraq and Afghanistan we are on unsteady ground. What pisses alot of folks off is that the US southern border is not secure and its not just the people its the drugs. As someone that works in law enforcement the drugs coming in are not the drugs of the 80s. These drugs are deadly its no joke. The US government at this time seems to not care about domestic issues and has no problem funneling money to Ukraine. Our inner cities are a mess, folks are fighting inflation and Zelensky comes to congress and tells the US that 50 billion is not enough. Ukraine had a defense budget of 5 billion before the invasion probably knowing at some point they would be invaded. The Russian defense budget per year is 65 billion so the US gave them pretty much the same budget of the Russians. Why Americans are scrambling to pay thier energy bills

Working Americans the ones paying taxes ask why is the European Union not paying more? , They have a similar population similar GDP and have more at stake. Why is the US still in Europe why are we paying more for the defense of Europe? The third European World War caused by Europeans again, and by Germany! This time German stupid dependence on Russian gas enabled a Russian KGB dictator with a love for past Soviet glory to invade and destroy peaceful cities of Ukraine and rise the ire of the world to enable dependence on gas by a Russian source. I will just ask does any American know why are the Russians fighting so hard to secure Ukraine? I dont. We are told they are evil, what were we told in Vietnam? The Russian Government may be evil I dont know, I think my own government is. I have been sold a bill of goods by my own government, The US invaded Iraq for weapons of mass destruction?

Believe it or not I donated to Ukraine and still do but something doesnt smell right.

The money we sent to Ukraine would probably cure the US homeless crisis, the Europeans could help Ukraine at the level the US does but they have better social welfare systems then criticize the US for not having them and have no real military infrastructure. I support Ukraine but one has to ask questions?



vpatrick
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nuts
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 742
Joined: 2005
Patriot Missiles for the Ukraine
12/23/2022 8:51:32 PM
Great reply and I totally see and agree with what you have said.
There are many questioning our involvement here in Oz when we have our own regional issues to deal with.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4450
Joined: 2004
Patriot Missiles for the Ukraine
12/23/2022 8:52:48 PM
Quote:
With Zelensky's current visit to Washington and the US's promise of Patriot Missile batteries for air defence in the Ukraine, what's everyone's thoughts on this new addition to the Ukraine inventory?
As well as up to 18.5 billion in more military aid.
I guess your concerns are on the minds of most folks following the Ukraine incident, Wazza.
Quote:
So many additional questions to ask and ponder:
Training. Up to 12 months for the 3x man operator crew and 12+ months for the maintenance crews. (all approximate times). Or
Employ already qualified and experienced personnel as contractors to operate this system. Something like up to 300 pers (potentially part of the Foreign Legion or a new Foreign formation).
Yep, and yours are just some of them.

Training on new equipment is always an issue, however sophisticated the equipment might be. We know that Iranian forces are in the Ukrainian theatre, either training or supervising Russian use of the Iranian “kamikaze” drones. I assume a similar arrangement will be needed for many of the US or NATO systems becoming part of the the Ukraine arsenal. At the same time, there is a danger in allowing the US to maintain too much control over systems like the Patriot. There is a fine line between Russian propaganda suggesting this is a US-led proxy war and it being in fact a US-led proxy war. The Patriot batteries are useless without guidance and training, just as the Iranian missiles are.

For the moment, either this is Ukraine’s war or it isn’t. I believe it would be incendiary for the US to demand control of such weapons’ applications.
Quote:
Can the USA sustain another aid package of this extraordinary amount of money when conditions in the US for the average citizen is so hard?
I’m not aiming to piss of all the US folks out there, but I find this comment misdirected. Consider, e.g., how many million US citizens are angry because they can’t fly home for their second-most family-oriented holiday! My observations suggest that the US functions most effectively when there are folks in need. I’m not denying that there are many in need in the US right now, or that there are perhaps financial challenges hurting the least protected. But compared to most of the world, US citizens in general live a better life than many others. That said, I’m certain many US citizens would disagree with me.

I don’t think the continued US support for Ukraine will be based on the domestic economy. It will be based on the continued screwy partisanship that holds US politics in its grip, combined with the ability of the news media to keep Ukraine in the media/news headlights.
Quote:
Can the US maintain some control over the disposition and security of this weapon system when, so much military aid is being syphoned off by corrupt officials for financial gain?
Yes, but IMHO only at a very high geopolitical cost. Either the US honours the Ukraine’s commitments, efforts and values as it fights for its sense of national existence, or it doesn’t. Giving Ukraine such equipment suggests supporting their national commitments; placing controls on it, while to some extent required geopolitically, might suggest distrust of Ukraine’s war aims.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2342
Joined: 2020
Patriot Missiles for the Ukraine
12/23/2022 9:39:00 PM
Quote:
Great reply and I totally see and agree with what you have said.
There are many questioning our involvement here in Oz when we have our own regional issues to deal with.


The situation is an old one, humans want more, Russia is the largest country in the world still wants Ukraine, China is huge but wants Taiwan, the US takes over countries differently.. the dollar
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nuts
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 742
Joined: 2005
Patriot Missiles for the Ukraine
12/24/2022 12:07:14 AM
I'd assume similar to Iraq, there will be American businesses waiting for reconstruction contracts in the Ukraine. Money talks and the opportunity is there.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2342
Joined: 2020
Patriot Missiles for the Ukraine
12/24/2022 1:00:44 AM
YUP, I can imagine an Aussie one too, greed knows no boundaries, those big buildings in Sydney didn't build themselves, Merry Christmas Wazza


vpatrick
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nuts
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3080
Joined: 2007
Patriot Missiles for the Ukraine
12/25/2022 10:18:13 AM
Vpat, I concur with much of what you say.

The American taxpayer is getting screwed over seven ways to Sunday.....again. For years, both of our political parties had their hands all over Ukraine corruption....not helping fix it as they would have us believe...but wildly partaking in it. Especially the Obama - Biden administration( Biden was put in charge and we see where that went.....up Hunter`s nose..less ten percent.)

We are pouring billions dollars of support there with no accounting. I hear that some EU-NATO countries are spending more than the US as a percentage of GDP. Not Germany...as usual. Good. they should be spending way more than US...it`s their damn front and back yard!
It is sickening that the US, once again foots the lions share of the bill for that region...especially given the brain dead lack of strategic thinking that the EU and NATO has shown.

And finally, if you come to the US begging for more, and get to speak before a joint session of the US Congress...then don`t dress like a K-9 officer fresh off patrol for God`s sake. Show some damn respect for the people who are footing the bill while you and your wife are posing for Annie Liebowitz and Vogue photos...as women and small children`s bodies are being pulled from the wreckage of collapsed buildings. Show a little more concern than little Gretta and her cultist followers.

Respects, and Merry frigid Christmas....Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

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