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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)
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vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2520
Joined: 2020
Israel
10/8/2023 12:23:12 AM
This is going to get bad real bad, I dont understand this, never have so complex, but Hamas went after civilians and now I picked a side.

[Read More]

madness, Our Dementia ridden president just freed up its own money Iran money, 6 billion of its own funds the supporter of Hamas, for humanitarian reasons well that just frees up money for the military.

Politics be damned this country needs a leader, not a vegetable, the world is imploding, I would even accept a functioning democrat at this point anyone that can complete a sentence.

This is serious its no Joke

Biden is not up for the Job its beyond politics at this point

Wake up all, Things are going sideways well beyond what was thought imaginable.

vpatrick

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nuts
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
Israel
10/8/2023 7:47:53 AM
Not following, Vin. You don't like Biden but what does that have to do with Hamas crossing the border to attack the Israelis? The US provides money and security to Israel and has always done so even if Israel, currently, has become a bit of a rogue on its own.

I don't actually agree that Biden is a vegetable but I do find him more coherent than the putative representative from the other party. Biden and his foreign policy advisors wanted to get Americans out of Iran. Iran slowly kills prisoners through neglect and torture. Canada has had a couple of citizens die as prisoners at the hands of the Iranians. To get them out, he returned Iranian money to Iran that had been frozen as part of a suite of sanctions against that evil regime. I am sure that the American families of those people appreciate the fact that he did so.

Look I don't approve of terrorist attacks and I would hope that the Israeli-Palestinian issue will be settled diplomatically. Going after civilians is not right whether it be Ukraine or Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

But let's not lose sight of the issues between Israel and the Palestinian people. Israel continues to annex land and to build settlements in territory occupied by Palestinians. Israel comprises a lot more territory today than it did in 1949. Those Palestinian people want a separate state and the deal that a former President posed was not a negotiated settlement that involved Palestinians. They were bypassed.

The Abraham Accords were a settlement between Israel and other Arab entities. Ok, some detente between Israel and the UAE and Bahrain. Nothing included that would provide a separate state for Palestine. And yet the Abraham Accords are touted as some sort of great success story.

Israel does not want a two state solution from what I can see. And so it sits with 2.7 million Palestinians on the West Bank and another 1.8 million crammed into Gaza. All stateless people and all disaffected. Most are just trying to go about their day. But there is a powerful terrorist group living among them, at least in Gaza. And those terrorists are willing to kill to achieve their ends.

Even as I condemn Hamas for this attack, I wonder when the Palestinians will be given a homeland where they live and before Israel annexes it all.

Vin, I get your frustration. I just don't think that Biden is experiencing dementia. He is an older man and we can see signs of aging but he seems to understand what he wants.

He just warned any other bad actors in the region that the US will defend Israel. I suspect that Hezbollah in Lebanon and Iran have been contacted behind the scenes to let them know that they had best not exacerbate the situation.

It seems to me that you folks like having these elder statesmen at the top. I also think that the vitriol and hatred expressed toward politicians in general is driving quality people to stay away from a career in politics. When we have nut bars showing up at a private residence to kill a politician, we are in big trouble. We recently had a whack job from western Canada drive his pickup through the gates of the PM's residence in Ottawa. He was armed to the teeth.

Let's hope that this incident in Israel will be stabilized soon.


Take it easy, Vin

George

scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
Israel
10/8/2023 8:14:12 AM
It's Hezbollah which is the Iranian proxy, not Hamas.

Hamas are Sunnis, and recently strongly influenced by Salafism, so not regarded favourably by Iran. Their main state sponsors are Qatar openly and the Erdoğan regime in Turkey surreptitiously, but not very surreptitiously. In other words, it's official denied but obvious.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
Israel
10/8/2023 9:09:44 AM
Thanks Trevor. You describe a more complex web of support for Hamas than I realized.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/8/2023 2:59:02 PM
Personally, I wish that Israel could drop a nuke or two or.., on these Islamist's. That said, IMO, with Israel declaring war this is going to be a long run matter. And, at some point, which could be sometime to come, Israel will need to look at itself in the mirror and ask themselves; 'How did we let this happen to ourselves, again!'

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
Israel
10/8/2023 3:45:15 PM
Trevor, I very respectfully do not agree. A simple GOOGLE search shows result after result that Iran is listed as a supporter of Hamas, particularly in supplying missiles.

One can say that Syria, Qatar, Yemen are all supporters...but Iran is most certainly one as well.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/8/2023 4:59:34 PM
Note the date of this onslaught.

October 6th 1973, Israel was taken by surprise in the Yom Kippur attack.

Fiftieth anniversary coincidence, or a deliberate bit of choreography by Hamas ?

In this one, too, the Israelis were surprised.


Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Lightning
Glasgow  UK
Posts: 1064
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/8/2023 5:28:08 PM
I would urge caution and restraint to all members of MHO on expressing political views on this matter.

Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4806
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/8/2023 9:14:44 PM
Amen, Colin. This thread has already gone too far, considering how quickly other threads have been warned of political commentary.

The disagreements between Palestinians and Israelis have led to ugly conflicts for the past 75 years. After 1948, it has been at kindest a partisan war, or a territorial war, which Israel has largely controlled. I don’t see Netanyahu as representative of Israel just as I don’t see Hamas as representative of Palestinians.

So much I won’t say!
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/9/2023 1:20:30 AM
Quote:
Note the date of this onslaught.

October 6th 1973, Israel was taken by surprise in the Yom Kippur attack.

Fiftieth anniversary coincidence, or a deliberate bit of choreography by Hamas ?

In this one, too, the Israelis were surprised.


Regards, Phil


That was the first thought I had when I heard of the attacks Phil. Obviously, Israel was lulled into a state of poor security/disinterest over the past years with small skirmishes, conflicts maintaining the status quo while keeping their (Israeli) eyes off the details while deep inside, much like the planning of 9/11, those rats were sitting, waiting and planning for moments such like this. Time, space and complacency is the worst enemy of peace.

I've seen the videos of Israeli border guards and units assigned in such areas dressed in jean shorts, tennis shoes, military vests, helmets, and weapons with blood draining from their bodies all the while with triumphant Hezbollah terrorists typically prancing upon their bodies while filming themselves kidnapping females as of this was so much fun. And there are those who caution about getting "political" about this situation, ok.

So now what?

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1797
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/9/2023 9:35:52 AM
Quote:
I would urge caution and restraint to all members of MHO on expressing political views on this matter.

Colin

When would be an appropriate time, if ever?.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
Israel
10/9/2023 9:49:42 AM
Dan, the caution I think is advisable. Whenever the members of this forum try to assess current events the conversation quickly goes south and people become angry at one another.

I think that what has happened in Israel is deplorable. But I also find the behaviour of the Israelis on the West Bank toward Palestinians to be deplorable. Impossible to discuss a complex issue like the Israeli-Palestinian divide on this forum without creating our own divide.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/9/2023 11:15:38 AM
Valid points George. If only the Palestinians, who are under the claw of the Iranians would conduct peace talks, not in this instance of course, maybe progress could be made. But, the oppressive influences the terrorists have on the Palestinian population forces them into no settlement talks, no progress toward peace and they play the card it's the Jews fault. Israel while fighting to maintain a survival of its people and nation has demonstrated a willingness to talk but, with Iran in the background driving the direction of war against Israel through the use of Palestinians and with certain US presidents slushing funds to them, until the Iranian regime is brought down, this will never end.

It would be good to see an internal downfall from within the Palestinians but the terrorist forces are just too strong with weapons, outside money and the distortion of religion to fit their violent views. In many ways, Hamas and Hezbollah is and has been everything ISIS is and because of them, Israel resorts to the methods they apply to survive.

Estimates now state 70-100 Israelis were taken as captives and, videos of Israeli soldier(s) beheadings!

Dan

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
Israel
10/9/2023 4:54:48 PM
Quote:
Trevor, I very respectfully do not agree. A simple GOOGLE search shows result after result that Iran is listed as a supporter of Hamas, particularly in supplying missiles.

One can say that Syria, Qatar, Yemen are all supporters...but Iran is most certainly one as well.

Respects, Morris


My apologies Morris. I wrote far too fast. Of course Iran supports Hamas. However, Hamas and Iran have found themselves on opposite sides, in both the Syrian and Yemeni Civil Wars. Iran drastically reduced it´s financing and support and turned to Hezbolleh as it´s primary proxy.

Respects Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/9/2023 5:05:36 PM
The awful thing about terrorism is its predication on inciting maximum revenge. It’s as if Hamas has a vested interest in the deadliest Israeli retribution : if the Israelis unleash Armageddon on Gaza, that’s what Hamas wants .

They’ll trade ten - or even a hundred- Arab lives for one Jewish life. With Israeli deaths already confirmed to be in the order of a thousand, what lies ahead ?

What an abomination !

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/9/2023 6:58:21 PM
Interesting reading from the Times of Israel web page; ‘The writing was on the wall,’, authored by Yigal Carmon, a former adviser on counter-terrorism to prime ministers Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.

"The foreign power that is most often accused of propping it up is Iran. While there is no denying that Tehran contributes to the terror group in various ways – with funding, armaments and military training – the real financial lifeline for Hamas is provided by Qatar." my emphasis.

"It is no secret that Qatar has funded radical Islamist groups for years. A small country with vast wealth, the Gulf monarchy has sought to punch above its diplomatic weight by forging alliances with a very heterogeneous set of actors. It has excellent relations with Iran and has held joint military cooperation with its Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), it is a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood, and has been accused of financing the rise of al-Qaeda and Islamic State."

"“Qatar can boast a major broadcasting company, Al Jazeera. Since the start of the war, Al Jazeera has become the mouthpiece of Hamas,”


[Read More]

Dan


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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/10/2023 4:29:45 AM
On the radio this morning I heard that the Israelis report that they have killed, and counted the bodies of , fifteen hundred Hamas attackers.

That’s a big number : how much credence should we place on that claim ?

The terrorists who perpetrated this onslaught were highly trained and used some sophisticated techniques : hang gliders, speed boats , motorbikes etc. My guess is that the attack was conducted by a relatively small number of people, a few thousand at most.

If the Israeli claim is true, a third of them, maybe more, are dead. The military potential of Hamas would be significantly degraded and the Israeli government might be anxious to pursue the option of seeking a horrific end, rather than enduring endless horror.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/10/2023 12:42:03 PM
Quote:
On the radio this morning I heard that the Israelis report that they have killed, and counted the bodies of , fifteen hundred Hamas attackers.

That’s a big number : how much credence should we place on that claim ?

The terrorists who perpetrated this onslaught were highly trained and used some sophisticated techniques : hang gliders, speed boats , motorbikes etc. My guess is that the attack was conducted by a relatively small number of people, a few thousand at most.

If the Israeli claim is true, a third of them, maybe more, are dead. The military potential of Hamas would be significantly degraded and the Israeli government might be anxious to pursue the option of seeking a horrific end, rather than enduring endless horror.

Regards, Phil


IMO, an end to this will only occur when Israel believes they have substantially hammered these people. I suspect Israeli intel is/has assessed its information of buildings, tunnels, homes, businesses, staging points, etc., that are known to have ties to the terrorists, it is just a matter of time until they are all hit. I do not see Israel just up and walking away from this one as the ramifications for their security is immense; yes, the failure of Israeli intel failed miserably and is so dang reminiscent of the 73 Yom Kippur attack; seems 'never again' was forgotten but brutally shoved back into the faces and lives of Israel.

On the other side, Hamas clearly has no intention of negotiating peace, nor does Hezbollah or Iran. Oh they (Hamas) may get to the point of seeking an ending of hostilities, but that is so they can regroup, replan, subvert and kill.
Beheading children IMO establishes a vile realm of people who must be eradicated, there is no possible good in such people.

Dan

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Brian W
Atlanta GA USA
Posts: 1228
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/10/2023 11:05:25 PM
Quote:
It's Hezbollah which is the Iranian proxy, not Hamas.

Hamas are Sunnis, and recently strongly influenced by Salafism, so not regarded favourably by Iran. Their main state sponsors are Qatar openly and the Erdoğan regime in Turkey surreptitiously, but not very surreptitiously. In other words, it's official denied but obvious.

Trevor


I'm sorry. This is wrong. Iran supports Hamas. I'll give you the most liberal news outlet possible. CNN. Quote "Hamas and Iran are longtime allies". Literally every news source states Hamas and Iran are in bed together. Now whether or not Iran gave the go ahead or not is another story. But Hamas got 4000+ rockets and arms from a nation. And that nation is Iran. No disputing that.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/middleeast/hamas-iran-israel-attack-analysis-intl/index.html
[Read More]

Trevor..."The enemy of my enemy is my friend" You missed that.
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"Take it easy. But take it" - Tom Morello's mom.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/11/2023 1:39:30 AM
In their determination to destroy Hamas, which entails a pulverising onslaught on Gaza and attendant diversion of Israeli military force, how vulnerable will Israel’s Northern flank be to Iranian attack through the agency of Hezbollah ?

And then there’s the West Bank too…..

Editing: an observation of mine from a little personal experience : Iranians exhibit a profound dislike of Arabs. The deaths of hundreds of thousands of Arabs will not cause much dismay in some sectors of the Iranian hierarchy, especially if they serve a useful purpose in diverting Israeli resources from other fronts.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/11/2023 2:29:52 AM
There appears to be something "there". A setup, waiting for the Israeli ground forces to enter into a killing zone that seems to be rampant in a desire of extreme violence and racial/religious fanaticism that would make the Abyssinians of centuries past pause, well maybe pause to at least take a breath.

I have no doubt in my mind, Israel is rightfully going to destroy several generations of Palestinian history, peoples, and heritage. I do hope it does not take long to accomplish.

Dan

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2010
Israel
10/11/2023 5:55:30 AM
Quote:
Quote:
It's Hezbollah which is the Iranian proxy, not Hamas.

Hamas are Sunnis, and recently strongly influenced by Salafism, so not regarded favourably by Iran. Their main state sponsors are Qatar openly and the Erdoğan regime in Turkey surreptitiously, but not very surreptitiously. In other words, it's official denied but obvious.

Trevor


I'm sorry. This is wrong. Iran supports Hamas. I'll give you the most liberal news outlet possible. CNN. Quote "Hamas and Iran are longtime allies". Literally every news source states Hamas and Iran are in bed together. Now whether or not Iran gave the go ahead or not is another story. But Hamas got 4000+ rockets and arms from a nation. And that nation is Iran. No disputing that.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/middleeast/hamas-iran-israel-attack-analysis-intl/index.html
[Read More]

Trevor..."The enemy of my enemy is my friend" You missed that.


Brian,

You missed my apology to Morris. What I meant to say was that Iran´s primary proxy was Hezbolleh. After Hamas and Iran found themselves in opposite camps in the Yemeni and Syrian Civil Wars, Iran drastically reduced it´s financing to Hamas. I typed before my brain was working and it came over as if Iran didn´t support Hamas.

Trevor



----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1797
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/11/2023 6:54:08 AM
Quote:
In their determination to destroy Hamas, which entails a pulverising onslaught on Gaza and attendant diversion of Israeli military force, how vulnerable will Israel’s Northern flank be to Iranian attack through the agency of Hezbollah ?

And then there’s the West Bank too…..

Editing: an observation of mine from a little personal experience : Iranians exhibit a profound dislike of Arabs. The deaths of hundreds of thousands of Arabs will not cause much dismay in some sectors of the Iranian hierarchy, especially if they serve a useful purpose in diverting Israeli resources from other fronts.

Regards, Phil

I am questioning whether Hezbollah is simply waiting for Hamas to bleed and entangle Israel to such a degree an attack from the North will be the end of Israel? Would the world stand by idly and watch such a scenario? I wouldn't advise to Israel to count on any such world help.

Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/11/2023 1:00:50 PM
Legitimate concerns no doubt for Israel and its borders. As fighting has already begun in the north it seems Israel is headed to an engagement of war on all its borders, again.

All too often in the situation with the Palestinians and Israel is the shunned elephant in the room that the Palestinians are largely maligned by other arab/islamic nations. Used exclusively as political and terrorist pawns chipping away at Israel, the Palestinians are not welcomingly integrated into society of the arab world. Historically this has thrown the chances of any peaceful resolution far away from the table of discussion.

The historical mirror in this conflict, and I suppose all others in this region, reflect back to the days of Hitler, before the mass exterminations began, rather it goes back to his ranting book, Mein Kampf which was supplanted in 1988 by the Hamas Charter; ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″.

What Hamas is, what they believe and their intent is within this charter, and Israel is its main focus, always has been, always will be.

Dan





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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
Israel
10/12/2023 9:12:35 AM

Dan, it is good hear some one bring up the fact that Palestinians are not welcome in any Arab nation. Jordan, who took in Palestinians and their leadership with open arms...were rewarded by having those same Palestinians try to overthrow the King of Jordan and take over that country. As a result, Jordan killed thousands of Palestinians and kicked them out. It seems that Palestinians want to take over any country they occupy. They are as welcome in Arab lands as migrants are in the "sanctuary city' of Hyannis Port....when they actually get there....the locals can`t get `em out fast enough ! They are merely pawns to achieve political and strategic ends.

The Arab nations have historically seemed to loath them, while wanting them to remain a constant sword at the throat of Israelis.

Hamas took over Gaza, kicking Fatah to the curb..and now there is no democracy in Gaza. The people there are as free to choose their leadership as they are to avoid the propaganda that they are taught in schools by Hamas. It is not their fault entirely, but it is not the responsibility
of the country that they wish to "wipe off the face of the earth, from the river to the sea" to do anything other than defend it`s borders and destroy those who wish to destroy them.

There was a two-state solution proposed once and the Jews agreed to it...the Palestinians did not. They placed their bets with the nations of Jordan, or Egypt or Syria, militarily solving their Jewish problem and handing the whole country over to them. Both Jews and Palestinians had claim to that land but, having chased the Jews out long ago, they now want to call Israeli`s "occupiers" and insist it is all theirs.

Personally, I am sick and tired of hearing how evil Israel is. When Jordan controlled Jerusalem, historic Jewish burial grounds were torn up...the stones used for paving. Jews were often denied permission for what most of us take for granted. it is sick to paint the Jews as the villains in all this...as I said...at one time they were welcoming to a two-state sharing of the land...the Palestinians wanted all of it, and drive the Jews into the sea.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/12/2023 12:25:09 PM
Well stated Morris.

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/13/2023 3:52:31 AM
Something was bothering me several months ago when I was reading reports of the turmoil in Israel when the government antagonised large sections of society by trying to undermine the role of the Judiciary and effectively compromise the democratic traditions that Israeli people have been so proud of. This was so serious that the Israeli armed forces actually voiced their unwillingness to carry out their duties unless the government backed down.

What a brilliant opportunity for Hamas, and how ruthlessly , effectively and atrociously they were able to exploit their advantage !

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
Israel
10/13/2023 8:32:19 AM

Good morning all. Today is Friday the 13th...and the Hamas Day Of Rage! Where alleged human beings show solidarity with beheading and burning babies, raping and killing their mothers...all planned as such...and college kids here in the US, who borrowed money to to go to over-priced and under-serving university...then expect plumbers and electricians to pay off their student loans....show how illiterate and immoral they truly are.

Who knows what the end of this day will bring.

Stay safe.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/13/2023 1:46:09 PM
Quote:

Good morning all. Today is Friday the 13th...and the Hamas Day Of Rage! Where alleged human beings show solidarity with beheading and burning babies, raping and killing their mothers...all planned as such...and college kids here in the US, who borrowed money to to go to over-priced and under-serving university...then expect plumbers and electricians to pay off their student loans....show how illiterate and immoral they truly are.

Who knows what the end of this day will bring.

Stay safe.

Respects, Morris


Morris mic drop moment, again!!

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 813
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/13/2023 5:39:59 PM
Israel, don't send ground troops into Gaza, its a trap.

Hamas will be ready for this, will fight dirty using civilians as shields and it will be costly in Israeli troops to take.

Better to do a hostage exchange (if its possible) and kill the freed criminals at a later date.

Crossing into Gaza will seal the hostages fate.

Use your technology to pound selected targets as you have been doing and starve Gaza into submission.

And USA, stop freeing up Arab money to fund this war!

My two bobs worth from a safe armchair down under.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1797
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/13/2023 5:54:12 PM
Quote:
Israel, don't send ground troops into Gaza, its a trap.

Hamas will be ready for this, will fight dirty using civilians as shields and it will be costly in Israeli troops to take.

Better to do a hostage exchange (if its possible) and kill the freed criminals at a later date.

Crossing into Gaza will seal the hostages fate.

Use your technology to pound selected targets as you have been doing and starve Gaza into submission.

And USA, stop freeing up Arab money to fund this war!

My two bobs worth from a safe armchair down under.


If our government can be believed the 6 billion released to Iran is now frozen, I have my doubts but it's encouraging news. The IDF should stay clear of Gaza. My guess is most if not all hamas fightesr are underground laughing at all the Israel bombs being wasted.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 813
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/13/2023 8:01:26 PM
Larry,

we are quite disturbed/fearful of your current Government.
And ours is currently bad enough promoting race division across Australia with the voice to parliament vote.

It's not the climate for Governments to be childish, stupid or selfish.

Regards
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2520
Joined: 2020
Israel
10/14/2023 1:13:53 PM
Quote:
Not following, Vin. You don't like Biden but what does that have to do with Hamas crossing the border to attack the Israelis? The US provides money and security to Israel and has always done so even if Israel, currently, has become a bit of a rogue on its own.

I don't actually agree that Biden is a vegetable but I do find him more coherent than the putative representative from the other party. Biden and his foreign policy advisors wanted to get Americans out of Iran. Iran slowly kills prisoners through neglect and torture. Canada has had a couple of citizens die as prisoners at the hands of the Iranians. To get them out, he returned Iranian money to Iran that had been frozen as part of a suite of sanctions against that evil regime. I am sure that the American families of those people appreciate the fact that he did so.

Look I don't approve of terrorist attacks and I would hope that the Israeli-Palestinian issue will be settled diplomatically. Going after civilians is not right whether it be Ukraine or Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

But let's not lose sight of the issues between Israel and the Palestinian people. Israel continues to annex land and to build settlements in territory occupied by Palestinians. Israel comprises a lot more territory today than it did in 1949. Those Palestinian people want a separate state and the deal that a former President posed was not a negotiated settlement that involved Palestinians. They were bypassed.

The Abraham Accords were a settlement between Israel and other Arab entities. Ok, some detente between Israel and the UAE and Bahrain. Nothing included that would provide a separate state for Palestine. And yet the Abraham Accords are touted as some sort of great success story.

Israel does not want a two state solution from what I can see. And so it sits with 2.7 million Palestinians on the West Bank and another 1.8 million crammed into Gaza. All stateless people and all disaffected. Most are just trying to go about their day. But there is a powerful terrorist group living among them, at least in Gaza. And those terrorists are willing to kill to achieve their ends.

Even as I condemn Hamas for this attack, I wonder when the Palestinians will be given a homeland where they live and before Israel annexes it all.

Vin, I get your frustration. I just don't think that Biden is experiencing dementia. He is an older man and we can see signs of aging but he seems to understand what he wants.

He just warned any other bad actors in the region that the US will defend Israel. I suspect that Hezbollah in Lebanon and Iran have been contacted behind the scenes to let them know that they had best not exacerbate the situation.

It seems to me that you folks like having these elder statesmen at the top. I also think that the vitriol and hatred expressed toward politicians in general is driving quality people to stay away from a career in politics. When we have nut bars showing up at a private residence to kill a politician, we are in big trouble. We recently had a whack job from western Canada drive his pickup through the gates of the PM's residence in Ottawa. He was armed to the teeth.

Let's hope that this incident in Israel will be stabilized soon.


Take it easy, Vin

George



Hi George,

You spent some time responding to my initial post and I thought you deserved a reply , Ill just say some things you said I agree with and other things I don't. Nothing worth breaking the peace about or adding more negativity into the atmosphere and understand your comments. Its an extremely unsettling time we live in right now, we went from the political polarization of my country, to the pandemic, global covid lock downs, to the Ukraine war and its Nuclear ramifications, now the Middle East is exploding again all in just a few years, its keeping me up at night as I am usual sound sleeper. It does not seem real, I feel like I am in the backseat of a car screaming at the driver who cant hear me as he drives me over a cliff.

In any case I dont have anything insightful to say about Israel and the Palestinians, just that in war it seems children, the old, and families pay the highest price on both sides because of the madness of revenge, tribalism, land lust, and ignorance. I have never been so down on the human race. Evil seems to be constantly knocking on the door.

Take Care George, hope you are well

vin












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nuts
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13539
Joined: 2009
Israel
10/14/2023 3:01:54 PM
Vin, I am trying to keep telling myself that there are more good people in the world than bad. It's the only way to keep sane. Let's hope that the Israelis can remove the Hamas fighters and leadership that caused the massacre on Saturday. And beyond that, let's hope that someone is giving thought to how Gaza and the West Bank will be governed in the future because just removing the current Hamas leadership without any political changes will only be a stop gap measure. You can kill the current crop of terrorists but that will not kill the movement. That will require some listening and accommodation.

Take care, Vin

George
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2520
Joined: 2020
Israel
10/14/2023 3:34:48 PM
Hi George,

I try to think the same about people, little harder for me because of my job but I try. I fear Israel is done accommodating or listening I just hope they dont act like the US after 9/11 when the entire country went insane with anger and the politicians had the political capital to invade Indonesia if they wanted to because the populace was so angry at the Muslim world. Hopefully Israel is smarter about how to eradicate the real enemy and limit civilian casualties especially the children. After this I dont see the Palestinians and the Israelis ever living in peace it can only get worse from here, there are no peace makers right now, no leader in this world are calling for peace. If they are they are they are supplying weapons and support to a side or buying cheap oil.

vpatrick
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nuts
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1968
Joined: 2010
Israel
10/14/2023 10:16:16 PM
Eisenhower and Bush battle groups enroute to eastern Med. Ike will be there in two weeks. Supposed to help other countries and political entities find other things to do. Will be interesting to see if anybody get LESS hard-headed.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1522
Joined: 2005
Israel
10/15/2023 12:52:49 AM
Quote:
Eisenhower and Bush battle groups enroute to eastern Med. Ike will be there in two weeks. Supposed to help other countries and political entities find other things to do. Will be interesting to see if anybody get LESS hard-headed.


Three USA carrier groups in the Med!? Hell, someone is getting either bombed by US a/c or the bombs of! Give credit where credit is due, the Palestinian terrorists now know how to duck.

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2520
Joined: 2020
Israel
10/15/2023 1:07:33 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Eisenhower and Bush battle groups enroute to eastern Med. Ike will be there in two weeks. Supposed to help other countries and political entities find other things to do. Will be interesting to see if anybody get LESS hard-headed.


Three USA carrier groups in the Med!? Hell, someone is getting either bombed by US a/c or the bombs of! Give credit where credit is due, the Palestinian terrorists now know how to duck.

Dan




I can see a bombing of Iran in some limited fashion, maybe a sinking of the Iranian navy to save face especially with the US elections coming up.


vpatrick
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nuts
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6498
Joined: 2004
Israel
10/15/2023 3:26:46 AM
There are moments when those chilling biblical phrases come to haunt us.

A Covenant With Death.

That’s the one that fits now, in a horribly literal sense.

Time to say prayers.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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