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Gregory C. White
Canton GA USA
Posts: 328
Joined: 2004
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
12/16/2020 7:38:19 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/12/16/san-francisco-may-rename-abraham-lincoln-high-school/

Black Lives evidently did not matter enough to the so-called "Great Emancipator". He probably would
not have supported climate change; transgender restrooms; and government healthcare for all.

While a vaccine for COVID-19 will be soon available, I'm doubtful the mental illness of political
correctness will be ending anytime soon.

Best Regards,

Greg

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“Any society which suppresses the heritage of its conquered minorities, prevent their history, and denies them their symbols, has sown the seeds of its destruction.” Sir William Wallace, 1280 A.D.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2929
Joined: 2007
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
12/30/2020 7:28:14 AM
It`s OK Greg....the Emancipation Statue of Abraham Lincoln has been removed from Boston Common, where it has stood since 1879. So the secular progressive cancer is spreading...and trying to erase history of every description.
We might as well not even engage in US history at all as there is no escaping the Maoist- inspired trash that has taken over this country. I am disgusted beyond belief...,and fighting mad at the mental illness of those who think that this accomplishes anything but anger...and a desire to no longer longer live in peace with this crap.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4933
Joined: 2004
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
12/30/2020 9:19:47 AM
Quote:
https://nypost.com/2020/12/16/san-francisco-may-rename-abraham-lincoln-high-school/

He probably would
not have supported climate change; transgender restrooms; and government healthcare for all.



Best Regards,

Greg



Not so sure about the transgender aspect, Greg !

Didn’t his opposite number, Jeff Davis , cut quite an alluring figure as he wore a woman’s dress when he sought to escape his captors ?😂

Forgive my flippancy.

I wholeheartedly endorse your views about the distortion of the record of our past by a sanctimonious cohort of the woke ; it disgusts me.

Have a happy new year !

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
mikecmaps
CAMARILLO CA USA
Posts: 79
Joined: 2020
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
12/30/2020 2:47:54 PM
While I generally enjoy free discussion;
Quote - “So the secular progressive cancer is spreading...and trying to erase history of every description. We might as well not even engage in US history at all as there is no escaping the Maoist- inspired trash that has taken over this country. I am disgusted beyond belief...,and fighting mad at the mental illness of those who think that this accomplishes anything but anger...and a desire to no longer live in peace with this crap.”

Respectfully and Sadly the above three posts are out of line on this site as shown by following heading from elsewhere on this site:
(2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)
Talk about Military Current Events
I respectfully protest to the administrator to remove them. Political correctness is about respect and civility to all people. It is correct because its civil and allows everyone a chance to participate and pursue their own happiness according to their own light and its politically vital to a democracy.
If we want to talk about change of the Lincoln school name;
It shows the fallacy of mixing present day politics with history. By todays standards some may say Lincoln had racist views, many did 1860-65. Better point is he deserves praise as the leader who held the union together and ended slavery – I am not a special Lincoln fan but these are facts. I also find this process difficult – how far do we go Washington and Jefferson were slave owners and may be guilty of helping to plant the cancer of slavery and racism in the constitution. Yet they contributed in a big way to independence and establishment of our democracy. Focusing on one aspect of any historic figure is rarely useful to understanding. Remember Britain also did not abolish slavery til 1833. It’s a fact that anyone born before then can not be held to account for our present standards. Universal suffrage for white males did not happen before 1856 in USA. And I do understand why many African-Americans find confederate memorials hurtful.
Slavery like Native American Genocide and Japanese internment are shameful blots on our history.
Respectfully,
mikecmaps
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2929
Joined: 2007
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
12/31/2020 8:02:13 AM
Mike.. the statement that "political correctness is about respect and civility to all people" is laughable in the extreme. The very essence of political correctness is total lack of respect for the views and opinions of others. It is why statues are being destroyed, people are being censored, history is being re-written (and even lied about) and books like The Odyssey, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, and other American and world works of literature are being banned from schools and libraries....hardly a mature and responsible exercise.

It is "correct," not because" it is civil and allows everyone a chance to participate" ......but because some one decided to tell another that they aren`t entitled to think for themselves unless they conform to some sort of newspeak......and must except the changes on the blackboard...or be doxxed and "canceled."

Political correctness is the antithesis of free speech and mutual respect of differing views and opinions. These statues are not coming down by osmosis . The statuary has been taken down in the dark of night, by protestors who respect nothing, who contribute nothing...who are so devoid of actual intelligence that they even deface the 54th Mass memorial in Boston, and try to burn down the church of the President`s in Washington DC...who tear down statues of religious and faith leaders...as well the framers and founders, and even Grant and Lincoln...because they hate this country..it`s history...it`s story...the good and the bad...and want to bring about a Maoist cultural revolution here. It is disgusting....and contributes nada to anyone`s understanding...and, in fact, promotes a lack of understanding.

Political correctness, when it concerns civil war history, or our literature, or our culture...is, itself, becoming a shameful blot on our history.
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
mikecmaps
CAMARILLO CA USA
Posts: 79
Joined: 2020
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
12/31/2020 11:54:15 AM
Mr. Crumley,
I have to agree to strongly disagree with virtually all you say. Free speech is not shouting racist epithets – or otherwise disrespecting and repression against minorities other religions etc. What you suggest is funny because it is most closely approximated in the country whos leader’s name you invoke - where religion, free speech and other basic freedoms don’t exist. And yet you use it in support of claiming the right to disrespect by speech others practice of basic freedoms. And yes Political correctness is a voluntary expression of respect born of the genuine belief that all people are entitled to humane treatment in thought word and deed, and we act out our adherence to that belief by behaving towards others respectfully – politically correct.
And as I said mixing history with current politics shows grave misunderstanding and disservice to both.
I believe the issue in San Francisco is Native Genocide which Lincoln did participate in, as all we white people did into the 20th century. From the point of view of native people Lincoln is certainly guilty. How would you like to have a statue of Mao, since you mentioned him, standing at the most prominent corner nearest your home where you live and be compelled to pass it and see it and be reminded multiple times each day of the history you find so disturbing. Political correct behavior would be that you ponder that. And then have some thoughtful regard, if not a little compassion, for the people who were trod on for 400 years and their only crime being they were Native and here.
mikecmaps
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2929
Joined: 2007
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
1/1/2021 9:34:41 AM
Well, Mr. Maps.......no one here said that shouting racist epithets...or disrespecting and repression against minorities etc etc is freedom of speech. ( Total straw-man, nice try.) But what you seem to support is the suppression of speech that you don`t like or agree with. Political correctness, at it`s base, is the belief that there is only one accepted point of view..and that must prevail against all other view points that others have. It is total lack of respect.

I am angry over the lawless disrespect that has been shown to our history....good and bad....I express my view...and what is your first response....."remove it...shut it down." Rather typical of PC police...if you don`t like it....it should not be allowed to exist!

There have been destruction and de-facings of civil war monuments such as the Robert Gould Shaw-54th Mass monument in Boston...at least half a dozen or more statues of abolitionists....and even Abigail Adams, wife of John, and very prominent abolitionist supporter in the time of our framers. That Lincoln -Emancipation statue was funded, I think by the Freedman`s Association.........so why the attack on these images. ..done in the name of PC virtue?

' And as I said mixing history with current politics shows grave misunderstanding and disservice to both."

That is exactly what PC gestapo do! They apply current politics and standards...to people and cultures that existed 150-200..( and in the idiotic case of banning "The Odyssey") more than a thousand years ago!

So I repeat...there is nothing respectful, in word or deed, about political correctness. It is like the argument that violence is justified when used against a person`s speech...all one must do is label that speech 'hate speech...or violent speech." There was a time when it was recognized that peaceful protest is protected free speech...and that violence, of any kind, in the service of protest was unacceptable and wrong, and had no place in a civil society. Sadly, that is no longer the case.

As to the issue of what my feeling would be regarding a statue of Mao that I had to pass every day....I would wonder why that murderous communist was being so honored when he would have had no place in American history. I would note that a statue of Vladimir Lennon does exist in Portland, ( or is it Seattle) and that it was not attacked and defaced, or pulled down in the dead of night...nor did it have a bunch of police have to defend it while being assaulted with frozen water bottles hurled at them, urine bottles, and fireworks and rocks...by the virtuous PC thugs, as happened in Chicago. Violence, against persons, or objects of art is not "free speech" nor is it an entitlement of civil behavior....so ponder that.


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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
mikecmaps
CAMARILLO CA USA
Posts: 79
Joined: 2020
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
1/1/2021 1:17:01 PM

Mr. Crumley,
We are clearly far apart but I’d like to correct a couple of things.
You said “no one here said that shouting racist epithets” but you clearly come close . . .
“secular progressive cancer”
“Maoist- inspired trash”
“fighting mad at the mental illness”
“what PC gestapo do!”
“I am disgusted beyond belief . . . desire to no longer live in peace with this crap.”
My point is respectful speech and yes I don’t like to see name calling rants here. My concern is that this site, normally a site for good history discussion that I enjoy, be taken over by name calling rants and frustrated diatribes.
The anti-PC position gives cover to those who do shout racist epithets.
And you make my point; “why that murderous . . . (fill in blank) was being so honored” that’s exactly the sentiment being expressed by those who want to change the school name.
And I am also troubled by this process but don’t say that others of a different view are “trash”, suffer “mental illness” (a common label used vs dissidents in communist Russia), “progressive cancer”, “PC gestapo” which is false since I already stated that PC is voluntary among those who respect others.
As I say I am also troubled by this process but can’t see how narrow unproductive characterisation of a view we may not like makes for useful discussion or leads to solution that can account for the interests of different points of view. I don’t like to think about removing confederate monuments from national battle fields, hopefully not, but we need to work together to find a way to live together. Compromise used to be the magic of American democracy. Narrow rants drive us apart and play into the hands of those who root against democracy in America.
mikecmaps
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4933
Joined: 2004
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
1/1/2021 2:36:07 PM
Quote:
. Compromise used to be the magic of American democracy.
mikecmaps


No sooner had I read your words, Mike, than I picked up a cherished popular history of the Civil War - a written version of that epoch making TV series from a generation ago - and referred to the words of Shelby Foote:

Why did American kill each other in such great numbers ?

Basically, it was a failure on our part to find a way not to fight that war. It was because we failed to do the one thing we really have a genius for, which is compromise.



Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2929
Joined: 2007
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
1/2/2021 10:37:35 AM
Mike, you champion conflation.

I don`t say that those who peacefully protest civil war statues and memorials and monuments are "trash".....I said that those who deface them, tear them down...and try to maim and injure those police who try to guard them are deranged trash. And PC is not voluntary despite how many times you try to argue that it is. If it were voluntary, then those who do not conform to PC norms would not be "cancelled, mocked, censored and "punished."

By defacing, destroying, and tearing down these civil war statues, ( including those of anti-slavery-abolition ideals) the PC thugs that do it are forcing one opinion on others. And the threat of the violent mob makes others afraid to not conform to this Orwellian course and act in other ways to show conformity.

Again, art, statues, monuments, and history of that civil war era is being erased, mostly done by mobs or at the insistence of mobs...where is this glorious compromise in violence and intimidation? There was a time when most Americans did agree that violence and the "mob veto" would not be tolerated in a civil society. It is truly unfortunate that so many now won`t even agree with that concept..and, in fact condone the violence, intimidation, censorship, and that which has come about...and worsens every day.
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
mikecmaps
CAMARILLO CA USA
Posts: 79
Joined: 2020
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
1/2/2021 12:47:00 PM
Mr. Crumley,
I’d like to finish by telling a story of positive accommodation that may be useful here? (Maybe not)
So, about 15 years ago my buddy & I had the chance to make a camping trip through Colorado, Wyoming and Montana. We were visiting Cavalry fort sites and Indian war sites. One of the first was the Milk Creek Battle Field near Meeker Colorado. What we found are two monuments. One was the monument for the cavalry and troopers that had been placed there some years after the battle. But we also found a second, much more recent, monument for the Native warriors as well. This monument has the names of warriors killed at the battle. These two monuments sit side by side.
mikecmaps
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2929
Joined: 2007
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
1/2/2021 3:55:14 PM
Mike....I experienced the same at Little Bighorn Battlefield Park.

It once was Custer National Battlefield. In 1991, the name was changed to Little Bighorn Battlefield Park. There is the monument to the soldiers under Custer who died there.....and there is now a monument to the First Nations people who perished there, " fighting for their way of life." There are the many headstones that tell where the troopers and scouts fell....and there are now headstones of where the Lakota and Cheyenne fell.

It shows clearly, as the example you provided, that history should not be a zero-sum game.....where in order to promote one telling....the other must be erased and destroyed. That is a form of tribalism, and not healthy to any nation.

I applaud any effort of positive accommodation. But that is not what we are living right now. It could be...it should be....but it is not.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
mikecmaps
CAMARILLO CA USA
Posts: 79
Joined: 2020
Abraham Lincoln High School may be renamed
1/2/2021 5:02:42 PM
Morris,

I like what you say.

Thank you, Mike_C.
mikecmaps

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