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Phil Andrade
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La Becque, 28 June 1918.
With today being the 108th anniversary of the assassination at Sarajevo, which obviously dominates the narrative of the First World War and the subsequent traumas of the twentieth century, I want to mention an obscure battle that merits study and comment.
It was a portentous affair, which demonstrated how the tide was turning fatally against Germany , although the ensuing battle at Le Hamel six days later is far more to the fore in the history books.
It might not inspire anyone here to investigate, so I’ll let things stand and see if there’s a response.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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john hayward
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Phil
I am pretty sure the battle you are not looking for is Belleau Wood. The US Marines and other elements of the AEF officially clear the Woods on June 26 1918. The AEF did provide 10 battalions to aid the ANZAC in their attack on July 4.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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Brian Grafton
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I’m so bad at “Twenty Questions” …
B
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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john hayward
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Phil
Instead of long prelim. barrage the BEF bombarded the German line heavily and quickly followed it up. At the moment the shrapnel barrage lifted, British troops swarmed forward giving the enemy little or no chance to reach machine guns or man parapets before being overrun. In circumstances that were repeated along the length of the front, attacking troops pressing too closely to the barrage were inevitably hit by their own shrapnel, accounting for many of the casualties.The 31st Division stated that all objectives were reached practically on time. To the right of 31st Division, 5th Division was no less successful. After the retreats of March and April, La Becque was one of the first operations in which the Allies returned to the offensive.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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George
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A forgotten battle
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I was going to add that the action at La Becque was designed to re-establish the lines after the German attack during Michael had petered out. I read the "Accrington Pals" site to find out something about this battle. It was successful but costly as many battles were during this war and seemed to be well organized with companies well appraised of their short term objectives. In that La Becque was in sharp contrast to some of the actions of 1914/15.
Phil, why did you wish to note this particular action? Just curious.
Cheers,
George
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Phil Andrade
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John and George,
Thanks for weighing in here. In truth, the very obscurity of this action is, in itself, worthy of note, if you'll forgive the oxymoron !
John, you mention Belleau Wood. This, I daresay, is the most famous US action of WWI : not the biggest - Meuse Argonne steals that prize - and not as immediately successful as, say, St Mihiel. But it stands out in the folklore, largely, no doubt, on account of its Marine Corps association. It has to be the " legendary" battle of the war in the US narrative.
Any British person with more than a passing interest in the Great War will have heard of Belleau Wood. Almost no one knows about La Becque.
Even in some of the books on my shelves, written by celebrated British historians of the Western Front 1914-18, La Becque is not mentioned.
It was small scale stuff by the standards of that war. It's described as a " substantial raid " in one of my chronological volumes, which notes the events of the war day by day.
Why have I taken an interest ?
Look at this entry from the regimental history citing the reports from one of the British units involved, the 1st Battalion the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry :
[a] great number of Germans were killed and in one place no less than thirty-seven lay heaped together - all bayoneted.
All bayoneted ? What would inspire such a vicious and gruesome onslaught on the enemy ? Was there a theme of vengeance, attributable to the awful expeirence of one of the British divisions engaged in the action - the 31st - which had been in the terrible repulse of two years earlier on the First Day of the Somme ? Running out of time, must post to save and revisit.
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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john hayward
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George
Used the same website. Very good information. Was somewhat costly but compare to other battles, it was a dust-up in those terms. With the Meuse-Argonne on the horizon, this battle was very successful in keeping losses low.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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Phil Andrade
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Sorry, my entire follow up was lost when the timing kicked me out !
This bayoneting of the enemy has to be addressed.
Feral fury in pursuit of a fleeing foe, or murder of men who had already surrendered ? If so, why the gruesome manner of killing when shooting and grenades would have been easier ? Regimental History hyperbole, or an actual occurrence that people prefer to avoid thinking about ?
I suspect there might have been a vengeance syndrome : some of the troops involved in this fight were from an East Lancashire battalion known as the Accrington Pals whose forebears had been massacred almost exactly two years earlier on the First Day of the Somme.
There might also have been a general sense that the Germans had shot their bolt after the huge attacks of March and April, and there was a special form of aggression in taking the fight to the enemy. I note that on that very day, french troops under Mangin began some fierce and effective counter attacks : this intrigues me, and suggests that there might have been an almost spontaneous and general Allied resurgence, based on awareness of the tide turning. Certainly, the example of the USMC at Belleau Wood would be inspirational here.
A lot more to say, but I'll cut and run now before I lose it all again !
Back soon,
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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john hayward
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Phil
Could it have been that because of the short barrage and quick follow up that the trenches were filled with disorganized defenders? The attackers enter the trenches and with the tight quarters leave using the bayonet as the weapon of necessity. With heavy barrages, gas and leaving only a small amount of defenders in the front line meant not as many to confront. Times earlier if one reached the first trench you found dead or dazed defenders. It was moving on to the second one that proved difficult
This doesn't mean that the attacker's blood was up. It may have been revenge for the 31st. Or a combination of factors.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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Phil Andrade
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Quote: Phil
Could it have been that because of the short barrage and quick follow up that the trenches were filled with disorganized defenders?
A plausible suggestion, John.
I can’t resist citing an episode in the American Civil War that has echoes of this.
May 3, 1863, in the Chancellorsville campaign, Sedgwick’s troops stormed the confederate lines at Fredericksburg, clearing the infamous stone wall position at the base of Marye’s Heights where so many yankees had been slain the previous December. Better tactics and a weak enemy defence aided the attackers, but it was still a brave charge pressed home at bloody cost. I’m sure that the vengeance syndrome was at work here, too. Let the account of Lt Colonel Charles A Clark, 6th Maine Regiment, speak :
It is not true that bayonets never crossed during the war. They were used at the stone wall by our men, and after the battle it was found, by actual count, that 40 of the enemy had been bayoneted there.
Uncanny similarity of numbers from the two episodes, both from wars which were said to have made the bayonet redundant in view of devastating firepower.
At La Becques, the attacking British suffered significant loss from their own barrage as they surged forward. The same might be said of the bombs that fell from Allied aircraft in Normandy almost exactly 26 years later. In both cases, successful bombardment crushed opponents but took a toll in terms of “ blue on blue “.
Always on the lookout for recurrent themes in the annals of warfare !
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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john hayward
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Phil
When the Regulars entered the earthworks on Breed's Hill it was combination of anger, revenge, blood lust and mass confusion. There was very little room and no time to use anything but the bayonet. Some rebels made a stand others fled. Officers were down so command and control was lost.
Same at Second Fredericksburg or even the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania. Less than 150 years you see the same results
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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Phil Andrade
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John,
What, I ask, was the calibre of the troops in this La Becque fight ?
I imagine that the German soldiers deployed there might have been second rate, since the axis of German offensive had moved south to the Marne sector.
Those left manning the salients in the north were, I dare say, serving as cannon fodder while the elite contingents were utilised for the next big attack.
OTOH, the British troops at this phase were conspicuously young, with the men of 1916 and 17 having “ gone West “ or filled the hospitals.
They must have been more formidable than is commonly imagined, to have pressed home such an attack and used the bayonet. Perhaps younger soldiers are the more eager to fight hand to hand ?
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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George
Centre Hastings
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Quote: At La Becques, the attacking British suffered significant loss from their own barrage as they surged forward. The same might be said of the bombs that fell from Allied aircraft in Normandy almost exactly 26 years later. In both cases, successful bombardment crushed opponents but took a toll in terms of “ blue on blue “.
Did they lean a little too close in a creeping barrage or were they victims of short rounds? Just curious because British \ artillery shoots could be very sophisticated events at this stage of the war
Cheers,
George
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Phil Andrade
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Quote:Quote: At La Becques, the attacking British suffered significant loss from their own barrage as they surged forward. The same might be said of the bombs that fell from Allied aircraft in Normandy almost exactly 26 years later. In both cases, successful bombardment crushed opponents but took a toll in terms of “ blue on blue “.
Did they lean a little too close in a creeping barrage or were they victims of short rounds? Just curious because British \ artillery shoots could be very sophisticated events at this stage of the war
Cheers,
George At first thought, George, I would opt for the former as the more likely cause, but I don’t know, and will see what I can find out by reading some articles. Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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john hayward
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Phil, George
Reading Holmes' Tommy and mentions that in the heat and confusion of battle the defender fights until he saw he was losing then throws up his hands. For his efforts he gets a bayonet in the stomach and "A little too late, chum!"
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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Phil Andrade
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John and George,
What bothers me here is that, according to the DCLI account, the thirty seven bayoneted Germans were all heaped together.
That conjures up an image of helpless men being massacred together in a small space, in a manner more redolent of medieval warfare.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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scoucer
Berlin
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"Seeing Red" is a phrase we often hear for losing control but it is in fact a real phenomenon. Adrenalin and blood pressure levels are so high that one looses all control and actually vision turns red. It is one of the dangers of steroid abuse. There are mentions of combatants experiencing this at Antietam, Verdun and Spotsylvania. It may have been the case here.
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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George
Centre Hastings
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Tim Cook is a historian with the Canadian War Museum and a prolific author. He wrote an interesting essay about the topic of surrender and I know that I have recommended this essay before but it is worth a read. The statement quoted in John H.'s post ending in, "too late, chum" sums up Cook's thesis that surrender or rather, "becoming a prisoner", is one of the most dangerous events for a soldier on the battlefield who has had enough. Timing is everything and according to Cook, soldiers who have watched their mates fall while assaulting a position are less likely to accept the surrender of a soldier who continues to shoot and kill until his enemy is right upon him.
Quote:A German had come out of his trench to meet him with the bayonet; [but] had chickened out and tried to surrender. Our boy would have none of it. He lunged at the German again and again, who each time lowered his arms and stopped the point of the bayonet with his bare hands. The German was screaming for mercy. Oh God, it was brutal!
Private James Owen, 15th Canadian Infantry Battalion2
Quote:We were held up by machine-gun fire from a ridge. . . . I don’t know how I escaped because I was lying right out in the front. After losing half of my company there, we rushed them and they had the nerve to throw up their hands and cry, “Kamerad.” All the “Kamerad” they got was a foot of cold steel thro them from my remaining men while I blew their brains out with my revolver without any hesitation. You may think this rather rough but if you had seen my boys go down you would have done the same and my only regret is that too many prisoners are taken.
Lieutenant R. C. Germain, 20th Canadian Infantry Battalion3
But it is also true that others were executed if there were insufficient numbers of men available to escort prisoners to the rear. And there are other reasons why men were executed.
A good piece by Tim Cook, published in the Journal of Military History
[Read More]
Cheers,
George
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Phil Andrade
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George and Trevor,
Why the grotesque situation of the bayoneted Germans in a big heap ?
Random slaughter of isolated men is one thing : slaying men in a flock is another, especially if they’re dispatched with cold steel.
Cold steel and hot blood is understandable , but the image of this gruesome heap is hard to assimilate.
Maybe they were all dragged there, to satisfy a macabre interest in the way the British soldiers had behaved.
If these were young conscripts, it’s all the more remarkable.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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john hayward
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Phil
Possibly clearing out the trench? Tossing out the dead to make the trench usable? Just some ideas
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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George
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Phil, is there chance that the bodies on the battlefield were relocated to a central location? I know, sounds like excuse making.
Is there any reference in German regimental diaries or histories about this event at La Becque?
I did find a discussion on the Great War Forum that alludes to the collection of 37 bayoneted bodies at La Becque. Apparently the reference may be found in the Duke of Cornwall Light Infantry regimental diary as you mentioned earlier. Beyond that, there was little more information.
There are several battles in which soldiers were engaged in hand to hand combat with bayonets used liberally. Perhaps a German unit fought with the British soldiers in that manner and lost their lives to the bayonet.
As an example, I am thinking of an attack on Kitchener's Wood during 2nd Ypres in 1915. As the battle closed in the wooded area men were wrestling and hitting one another with anything that they had and using the bayonet. Men from both sides lay all about the wood having been despatched by bayonet.
I have no idea of the topography or geography at La Becque but is it possible that that geography and the final assault on the German trench position forced this type of fighting as well. Does that sound like excuse making as well? 
If, as Trevor noted, that men in combat reach a point where they "see red" then perhaps we can understand what may have happened at La Becque even if we disapprove from our comfortable pews over 100 years later. I cannot see how a man engaging in this type of combat could not be emotionally scarred by it. The experience must have been horrific.
Cheers,
George
Cheers,
George
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Phil Andrade
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Look back at that citation from Chancellorsville in 1863.
The same story : forty enemy soldiers, by actual count, bayoneted. What’s going on here ? In both episodes, there’s a post battle audit of men who’ve been skewered.
Why ?
Are soldiers trying to prove a point, in the most literal way ?
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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john hayward
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Phil
The Civil War triangular bayonet was a very nasty weapon so much so that it was banned by the international community. One problem was the difficulty of wound to heal. Another problem was when the CW bayonet entered the body, the body held on to it making in extremely difficult to remove it. Many times the soldier would pull the trigger and blow the victim off the bayonet. The result made it very hard to determine if the wound was made by a bayonet or gun shot.
I have looked at the Medical History Records which compiled examples of all types of wounds many quite gruesome. Of the wounds recorded bayonet wounds are the fewest. Of course this could mean that those types of wounds were usually fatal or parts of multiple wounds
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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George
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Not to be ghoulish but what did a civil war bayonet look like and how did it differ from British issue bayonets in WW1?
BTW, I have read that during WW1, men had to use their foot to get enough leverage to remove the bayonet from a man's body.
Cheers,
George
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Phil Andrade
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George and John,
The fixation on the bayonet might have been designed to impart aggression to citizen soldiers who were normally averse to violence and needed to be steeped in a culture of hate. The youthful conscripts of 1918 were in need of being “ toughened up.”
It was all the more important to do this as warfare became increasingly industrialised and impersonal .
AJP Taylor, writing sixty years ago, stated that British troops going into battle on the Somme were taught to rely on the bayonet, even though soldiers hardly ever saw their enemies and the bayonet, in reality, was only used to kill men who had already surrendered .
This is, of course, a sweeping and generalised statement - par for the course in Taylor’s book - but it rings with some truth.
I’m wondering here about that heap of bayoneted Germans, and the efforts of commanders to instil a murderous streak into their young soldiers, especially given the sense of resurgence that came to the fore in the British army in late June 1918.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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john hayward
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Phil, George
According to many, less than 1 percent of all wounds reported during the ACW were from the bayonet. As I stated in my previous text the fact that the bayonet when struck in the human body was difficult to remove so many times the soldier just pulled the trigger shooting the victim off.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
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Phil Andrade
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Quote: Phil, George
According to many, less than 1 percent of all wounds reported during the ACW were from the bayonet. As I stated in my previous text the fact that the bayonet when struck in the human body was difficult to remove so many times the soldier just pulled the trigger shooting the victim off.
Yes, of course, we must remember that men who were bayoneted tended to perish on the spot, and did not make it to hospital to have their wounds recorded, especially if they were shot as well.
Consider the report of forty rebels being counted as victims of the bayonet along that stone wall on 3 May 1863. They were, presumably, Mississippi men from Barksdale’s Brigade. They were to exact their revenge two months later when they slaughtered yankees along the Emmitsburg Road sector at Gettysburg two months later.
Fifty years later, in the battlefields of France and Flanders, the bayonet was often discarded in favour of entrenching tools, which could virtually cleave a man’s head from crown to chin.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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MikeMeech
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Quote: Phil, George
Fifty years later, in the battlefields of France and Flanders, the bayonet was often discarded in favour of entrenching tools, which could virtually cleave a man’s head from crown to chin.
Regards, Phil
Phil
The bayonet was only 'discarded' in certain circumstances for example in trench raids (these varied in size) and then not totally as there appears to be bayonet men on raids as well. On these raid they would use oil and soot to avoid reflections off the bayonet at night. The majority of War Diaries, at various levels of formation, contain a lot of information on raids carried out including pre-raid training, the raid itself (including what was carried) and the reasons for success or failure plus lessons learnt. In 'major' attacks bayonets were not replaced by other items and compared with what weapons were used for close combat in pre-firearm or early firearm days they do not look that vicious.
Mike
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